What the fuck is with the team names?

[ryno1974]

I know this has been debated thousands of times, but why do americans feel the need to not only name their sports teams with racist names, but refuse to ever change them? The Cleavland INDIANS??? You may as well have a team named the Wichita Darkies. It would be no more offensive than the Braves, the Redskins, or the Indians.

I don't get it.

[Fallon]

http://www.clemson.edu/caah/history/FacultyPages/PamMack/lec124/ironeyescody_450.jpg

[PapaBear]

Those teams all got their names when it was still OK to be insensitive. BTW... I don't have a problem with it at all, but I was pretty happy when a high school in NC finally stopped calling it's girl's teams the "Squaws". Now THAT'S offensive!

[Judge Smails]

Madness! There's no Darkies in Wichita.

[Fallon]

I don't see anyone mad at Notre Dame!

[Judge Smails]

I don't see anyone mad at Notre Dame!

http://i24.tinypic.com/dddmhk.gif

[SinA]

I do think it's wierd that the NFL in Washington DC, where plots to wipe out Nativa Americans and steal their land were conceived, is called the Redskins. It would be like if Berlin had a team called the Hook-nosed Jews.

And I am even a 'Skins fan.

[epo]

I don't see anyone mad at Notre Dame!

http://msnbcmedia2.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/040401/040401_tyoneWillingham_vmed_9p.widec.jpg

[TheMojoPin]

The Braves and the name "the Indians" don't really bug me, but the Indians' logo is one of the most absurdly racist things I've ever seen. It boggles my mind that we see dozens of idiots in "red face" during these playoffs. And the name "Redskins?" Christ. "Traditions" or not, both of those things are just ridiculous.

[ryno1974]

OK, so what I take from this is all the kidding aside, it seems everyone agrees to some degree that it is offensive. So why dont they change them? I know why no one is upset with Notre Dame, it's because the fighting irish is not offensve. The drink Mik's would be offensive.

I Don't even think there were any large aboriginal populations in Cleavland or Washington DC in the first place.

[PapaBear]

So why dont they change them? I know why no one is upset with Notre Dame, it's because the fighting irish is not offensve. The drink Mik's would be offensive.

I Don't even think there were any large aboriginal populations in Cleavland or Washington DC in the first place.
All the Cherokees that I knew in NC loved the Redskins. And they got the name when they were in Boston.

[Freakshow]

OK, so what I take from this is all the kidding aside, it seems everyone agrees to some degree that it is offensive. So why dont they change them? I know why no one is upset with Notre Dame, it's because the fighting irish is not offensve. The drink Mik's would be offensive.

I Don't even think there were any large aboriginal populations in Cleavland or Washington DC in the first place.

Of course there were large native populations in both places. The names are everywhere around here--Potomac, Anacostia, Monocacy, Shenandoah, Catoctin, Susquehana, Chesapeake, Ackokeek, Patuxent, Patapsco, Senaca, etc....

[Snacks]

OK, so what I take from this is all the kidding aside, it seems everyone agrees to some degree that it is offensive. So why dont they change them? I know why no one is upset with Notre Dame, it's because the fighting irish is not offensve. The drink Mik's would be offensive.

I Don't even think there were any large aboriginal populations in Cleavland or Washington DC in the first place.

The name Cleveland Indians has nothing offensive about it, that example is the exact same thing as ND. Both are named after a "race" of people and neither name is an offensive way to describe that race. What do you find offensive about a team called "Indians" Nothing else, just "Indians"?

[sailor]

what aboot the edmonton eskimos if those offend you? that's no more/no less offensive than the indians.

[EliSnow]

http://www.clemson.edu/caah/history/FacultyPages/PamMack/lec124/ironeyescody_450.jpg

Isn't he italian?

[Reynolds]

http://www.clemson.edu/caah/history/FacultyPages/PamMack/lec124/ironeyescody_450.jpg

Kind of off topic, but Fallon's picture reminded me of this. The whole depiction of native americans being so horny about the environment is fucking bullshit. If they have the opportunity to make money, they'll take it just like any other american. If anyone has ever been to lake powell in arizona before, it's a beautiful lake in the middle of the desert, great scenery everywhere. Then in the distance are 3 smokestacks atop a coal burning power plant, owned by... a native american tribe that uses it to sell electricity to california.

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x256/skrenz/thumbs/tn_vegas38.jpg

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x256/skrenz/thumbs/tn_vegas40.jpg

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x256/skrenz/thumbs/tn_vegas34.jpg

[realmenhatelife]

The redskins thing blows my mind- its a flat out racial slur.

Does anyone know the Atom & His Package song "If you own the washington redskins, you're a cock" ?

Its a good listen.

[Tall_James]

I find these types of logos very insulting...

http://www.rottingdeandirectory.co.uk/BrightonRugby/wasps_logo.gif

[RAAMONE]

Kind of off topic, but Fallon's picture reminded me of this. The whole depiction of native americans being so horny about the environment is fucking bullshit. If they have the opportunity to make money, they'll take it just like any other american. If anyone has ever been to lake powell in arizona before, it's a beautiful lake in the middle of the desert, great scenery everywhere. Then in the distance are 3 smokestacks atop a coal burning power plant, owned by... a native american tribe that uses it to sell electricity to california.

horny?

[A.J.]

I don't see anyone mad at Notre Dame!

Or...

http://www.davidsplacethemes.com/wallpapers/Minnesota%20Vikings.jpg

[TheMojoPin]

Or...

http://www.davidsplacethemes.com/wallpapers/Minnesota%20Vikings.jpg

Yes, that's why being angry over "the Braves" or even "the Indians" is a stretch...but that's not even in the same universe as "the Redskins." There simply is no logical excuse for that to be the name for a professional sports team.

And this?

http://www.bearplugs.com/prodimg/hft-BHC408L.gif

Come on. It's insane that THAT is likely going to be in the 2007 World Series.

[topless_mike]

team names and logos are a tradition, and should be held proudly.
long live the indian chop! (whatever it is that braves fans do)

take the cocks out of your asses.

if this liberal thinking is allowed to infiltrate sports, the next team might be named the
"memphis metrosexuals" or "lewisburg lollipops"

be a man

[topless_mike]

Or...

http://www.davidsplacethemes.com/wallpapers/Minnesota%20Vikings.jpg

dont hate on my vikings- its bad enough that we suck on field.

[TheMojoPin]

team names and logos are a tradition, and should be held proudly.
long live the indian chop! (whatever it is that braves fans do)

take the cocks out of your asses.

if this liberal thinking is allowed to infiltrate sports, the next team might be named the
"memphis metrosexuals" or "lewisburg lollipops"

be a man

BAR-FLOG-FLOOP-GLOP-HARGH-MAG-MURRRRRRRRG!!!

This is one of the dumbest posts I've ever seen.

[topless_mike]

BAR-FLOG-FLOOP-GLOP-HARGH-MAG-MURRRRRRRRG!!!

This is one of the dumbest posts I've ever seen.

is it?

[Marc with a c]

BAR-FLOG-FLOOP-GLOP-HARGH-MAG-MURRRRRRRRG!!!

This is one of the dumbest posts I've ever seen.

Somebody just ssh'd me after I read this post.

[contentsky!]

the most offensive part is Cleveland.

[Judge Smails]

And this?

http://www.bearplugs.com/prodimg/hft-BHC408L.gif

Come on. It's insane that THAT is likely going to be in the 2007 World Series.

I feel your pain:

http://www.mtv.com/games/video_games/images/promoimages/d/dime/e3_06s_most_anticipated/super_mario_revolution.jpg

[Doogie]

I know why no one is upset with Notre Dame, it's because the fighting irish is not offensve. The drink Mik's would be offensive.

I think the 'drink miks' are more appalled at your lack of grammatical sense as opposed to worrying about what a symbol looks like.

[underdog]

team names and logos are a tradition, and should be held proudly.
long live the indian chop! (whatever it is that braves fans do)

take the cocks out of your asses.

if this liberal thinking is allowed to infiltrate sports, the next team might be named the
"memphis metrosexuals" or "lewisburg lollipops"

be a man

Liberal thinking? Not everything is liberal vs conservative. The fact that there is a team called the REDSKINS is fucking appalling, tradition or not. And its not like Washington doesn't have a track record of changing semi-offensive names (The Bullets, really?), its amazing that Redskins hasn't changed yet.

“Back not so long ago, when there was a bounty on the heads of the Indian people... the trappers would bring in Indian scalps along with the other skins that they had managed to trap or shoot,” says Holder, whose arguments were included in a recent court filing in support of Harjo's claim. “Trappers and hunters began using the term ‘redskin’ ...they would tell the owner that they had bearskin, deerskins...and ‘redskins.’ The term came from the bloody mess that one saw when looking at the scalp ...thus the term ‘red’...skin... So, you see when we see or hear that term...we don't see a football team... we don't see a game being played...we don't see any ‘honor’...we see the bloody pieces of scalps that were hacked off of our men, women and even our children... we hear the screams as our people were killed...and ‘skinned’ just like animals. So, yes, ...you can safely say that the term is considered extremely offensive.”

I'm sorry if that's too liberal for you to read.

[topless_mike]

The fact that there is a team called the REDSKINS is fucking appalling, tradition or not.


build a bridge and get over it.
its a stupid name/symbol.
changing names because somebody is offended, that reeks of political correctness, which is quickly sending this country down the toilet.

dont like the name/symbol? dont look at it, or dont watch it.

how about them apples?

[Snacks]

team names and logos are a tradition, and should be held proudly.
long live the indian chop! (whatever it is that braves fans do)

take the cocks out of your asses.

if this liberal thinking is allowed to infiltrate sports, the next team might be named the
"memphis metrosexuals" or "lewisburg lollipops"

be a man

BAR-FLOG-FLOOP-GLOP-HARGH-MAG-MURRRRRRRRG!!!

This is one of the dumbest posts I've ever seen.

Correct.

What does liberal have to do with is anyway?

I love people that hate everything liberal but have a lot of freedoms because of liberal ideas and liberals who fight for freedoms. Mike do you play rock music? Well your conservative friends didnt like that kind of music, it was devil music and was band. Because of liberal people fighting for freedoms and the constitution your able to play and listen to your music.

BTW what does being a man have to do with anything?

[topless_mike]

Liberal= more gvt involvement, less personal responsibility
Conservative= less gvt involvement, more personal responsibility

if i have this wrong, then i apologize-


my whole point is if you dont like it, dont look at it.
hell, if you dont like r/f, o/a, stern, then change the channel- dont go crying to the govt
because you found it offensive. its your personal responsibility to turn off/away what you dont like.

[underdog]

Liberal= more gvt involvement, less personal responsibility
Conservative= less gvt involvement, more personal responsibility

if i have this wrong, then i apologize-


my whole point is if you dont like it, dont look at it.
hell, if you dont like r/f, o/a, stern, then change the channel- dont go crying to the govt
because you found it offensive. its your personal responsibility to turn off/away what you dont like.

Who is crying to the government?

[topless_mike]

Who is crying to the government?

:wallbash:

[underdog]

:wallbash:

No one said here that they think the government should make these teams change their names, unless I missed it somewhere.

[topless_mike]

No one said here that they think the government should make these teams change their names, unless I missed it somewhere.

you're right- nobody did.
but people went crying when imus made his point, when o/a made their point, etc.

so, how long will it be before some starts to cry that they find the "washington redskins" very offensive, and the team ends up changing their name?

my final point is if you find it offensive, you have no more right than somebody who doesnt.
if you dont like it, dont look at it.

[underdog]

you're right- nobody did.
but people went crying when imus made his point, when o/a made their point, etc.

so, how long will it be before some starts to cry that they find the "washington redskins" very offensive, and the team ends up changing their name?

my final point is if you find it offensive, you have no more right than somebody who doesnt.
if you dont like it, dont look at it.

Well, I don't support the Redskins in any way, so I have that going for me.

They just should change their name. Not because anyone is forcing them to; but because its the right thing to do.

[Snacks]

Liberal= more gvt involvement, less personal responsibility
Conservative= less gvt involvement, more personal responsibility

if i have this wrong, then i apologize-


my whole point is if you dont like it, dont look at it.
hell, if you dont like r/f, o/a, stern, then change the channel- dont go crying to the govt
because you found it offensive. its your personal responsibility to turn off/away what you dont like.

Are you serious? The current administration is conservative republican. They are by far the biggest big govt. ever. They spend more then any other adm, they have created laws to be involved in our lives. They secretly listen to us. They have pissed on the constitution. I guess liberals wanting health care for all is big government and to much involvement?

[ryno1974]

what aboot the edmonton eskimos if those offend you? that's no more/no less offensive than the indians.

Great point. I completely missed that one. And I agree with you. BUT..............

I'd rather be a Bomber than a fucking eskimo,
Oh I'd rather be a Bomber than a fucking eskimo,
I'd rather be a Bomber than a fucking eskimo,
Cause ESK-IM-O's SUCK COCK!

Sorry, I digress.

And yes, the term Indian IS offensive. It is extremely offensive to call a Native Canadian an Indian, primarily becuse they ARE NOT INDIANS. Indians are from India. The dumb ass white man decided back in the day it was too hard to tell anyone apart, so called every native group they encountered Indians.

Fucking dummy white men. Makes me sad to be one some days.

[RoyMunson]

What part is offensive? Is it offensive to you because you’re Native American?

[BoondockSaint]

I miss Chief Noc-A-Homa.

http://www.cviog.uga.edu/Projects/gainfo/nocahoma1.jpg

[TheMojoPin]

you're right- nobody did.
but people went crying when imus made his point, when o/a made their point, etc.

so, how long will it be before some starts to cry that they find the "washington redskins" very offensive, and the team ends up changing their name?

my final point is if you find it offensive, you have no more right than somebody who doesnt.
if you dont like it, dont look at it.

What does any of this have to do with O&A or Imus?

People have thought the Redskins have a stupid and offensive name for decades now. It's nothing new, so let's not act like this is some recent bug up people's asses. It's absurd to brush off people taking issue with the name when IT'S A FUCKING ETHNIC SLUR. You're trying to toss this off as people having to really stretch and find reasons for the name to be offensive. It really is along the lines of having a team called "the Niggers." Just like the Indian's logo is the native American equivalent of a sambo-type caricature.

And here's the part you need to grasp...if people have a "right" to use those names or logos, other people have the same rights to not like it and do something about it. Do you understand that? If something pisses people off enough and they want to do something about within their legal rights, they can. They're doing nothing wrong.

Stop brushing this off like people shouldn't get fed up with this kind of garbage.

[cougarjake13]

The Braves and the name "the Indians" don't really bug me, but the Indians' logo is one of the most absurdly racist things I've ever seen. It boggles my mind that we see dozens of idiots in "red face" during these playoffs. And the name "Redskins?" Christ. "Traditions" or not, both of those things are just ridiculous.

well at least they changed the logo on the hats

[TheMojoPin]

well at least they changed the logo on the hats

What?

It's still the face.

[Fezticle98]

Hail to the Redskins!
Hail Victory!
Braves on the Warpath!
Fight for old Dixie!

Run or pass and score -- we want a lot more!
Scalp 'em, swamp 'em -- We will take 'em big score
Read 'em, weep 'em, touchdown - we want heap more
Fight on, Fight on -- 'Till you have won
Sons of Wash-ing-ton. Rah!, Rah!, Rah!

[cougarjake13]

What?

It's still the face.

most times i see them they're just wearing the blue cap with the cursive letter I

[TooLowBrow]

I know this has been debated thousands of times, but why do americans feel the need to not only name their sports teams with racist names, but refuse to ever change them? The Cleavland INDIANS??? You may as well have a team named the Wichita Darkies. It would be no more offensive than the Braves, the Redskins, or the Indians.

I don't get it.

ask turkey.

killing indians was never declared genocide, so it's not

[sailor]

Great point. I completely missed that one. And I agree with you. BUT..............

I'd rather be a Bomber than a fucking eskimo,
Oh I'd rather be a Bomber than a fucking eskimo,
I'd rather be a Bomber than a fucking eskimo,
Cause ESK-IM-O's SUCK COCK!

Sorry, I digress.

And yes, the term Indian IS offensive. It is extremely offensive to call a Native Canadian an Indian, primarily becuse they ARE NOT INDIANS. Indians are from India. The dumb ass white man decided back in the day it was too hard to tell anyone apart, so called every native group they encountered Indians.

Fucking dummy white men. Makes me sad to be one some days.

i don't know aboot the canadians, but here's one poll (http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0762158.html) (thru the census bureau) showing they prefer american indian over native american. no matter how off the name was 500 years ago, it is something they identify themselves with.

[spoon]

The redskins thing blows my mind- its a flat out racial slur.

Does anyone know the Atom & His Package song "If you own the washington redskins, you're a cock" ?

Its a good listen.

So we can label our socks by color for descriptive purposes (red, white and of course the black ones) but nothing else bc people are so sensative. Who really gives a fuck? Two people with nothing better to do then complain as with the Imus shit (Al and Jesse). Come on people, are these the issues we choose to fight?

[TheMojoPin]

So we can label our socks by color for descriptive purposes (red, white and of course the black ones) but nothing else bc people are so sensative. Who really gives a fuck? Two people with nothing better to do then complain as with the Imus shit (Al and Jesse). Come on people, are these the issues we choose to fight?

The original cop-out.

"I don't give a shit, therefore it can't possibly be important on any level to anyone anywhere, nor can it possibly be a legitimate issue."

I can't belive you just tried to equate ethnic slurs with socks. Next time you have something completely useless to say, please make it about the Yankees.

[underdog]

So we can label our socks by color for descriptive purposes (red, white and of course the black ones) but nothing else bc people are so sensative. Who really gives a fuck? Two people with nothing better to do then complain as with the Imus shit (Al and Jesse). Come on people, are these the issues we choose to fight?

They aren't called Redskins because their skin is red.

[ryno1974]

What part is offensive? Is it offensive to you because you’re Native American?


I might be part Native Canadian ( I am sottish, and those fuckers nailed everything they saw when they came over here)

It offends me because it is offensive - thats it. It is not rocket science, it is not "PC" or "Liberal vs Conservative" the way some on here would have you beleive. It is about treating people the way they deserve to be treated. A big part of the reason the world is continuing to go to shit is because there are so many fuck wads out there that cant grasp that simple concept.

I can generally hold my head up as a Canadian when it come to racial equality, especially when compared to the US, but the history of racism in Canada towards native Canadians is horrendous. Seeing the day to day pain and suffering that occurs and seeing Cleavland Indians organization perpetuate that is sickening.

I realize the history is there, and the change cannot happen over night, but it makes you wonder - If ONE person asked the question to the owership of either the Redskins or the Indians, what could possible be the defense of not changing the name of their teams? The fucking BULLETS changed their name to try to keep people from shooting each other, but we cant seem to get rid of racial slurs?

What a fucking world.

I might lock this thread down, I dont think there is going to be any more meaningful debate other than "be a fuckin' man and dont be such a pussy"

[TheMojoPin]

I think the Indians just need to swap their logo with the Redskins' logo. That way we relegate the two most ridiculous offensive sports name/logo to a single team. Everyone hates the Redskins already, so it makes sense for them to suck it up.

[Fezticle98]

I think the Indians just need to swap their logo with the Redskins' logo. That way we relegate the two most ridiculous offensive sports name/logo to a single team. Everyone hates the Redskins already, so it makes sense for them to suck it up.

You savage!

I still like the Skins. However, within...5 years, they will be the Washington Warriors. No more Indian logo.

[TheMojoPin]

I might lock this thread down, I dont think there is going to be any more meaningful debate other than "be a fuckin' man and dont be such a pussy"

YEAH, DUDE, SLURS MEAN YOUR PENIS IS HUGE AND DOUGGRASSO CAN SEE IT FROM WAY OVER THERE EVEN THOUGH HE'S PRETENDING NOT TO LOOK.

[spoon]

The original cop-out.

"I don't give a shit, therefore it can't possibly be important on any level to anyone anywhere, nor can it possibly be a legitimate issue."

I can't belive you just tried to equate ethnic slurs with socks. Next time you have something completely useless to say, please make it about the Yankees.

It's not a cop-out, it's just a joke. Most native americans don't give two shits, that's my point. This shit has been tackled soooo many times and it is bullshit PC crap. If you find it offensive, that's your problem. It's not a racial thing, it's a heritage of the area in question. My high school team from home had this same issue and I just don't get it. If anything, the Fighting Irish is more a racist remark based on their perceived tendency toward fighting. Who the hell cares? Perhaps the US team for the Olympics should be changed to the Wizards/Red Storm. How dare we go in as the US team? Bit of a stretch for fun, but come fucking on. I'm sure the intent of these team names were given so Mojo could get on his high horse and call everyone else dumb for disagreeing with him. Sorry, just not a real issue no matter how you look at it until the rename the Rutgers team the White Trash Knights or the FSU team the Drunken Indians.

[spoon]

The original cop-out.

"I don't give a shit, therefore it can't possibly be important on any level to anyone anywhere, nor can it possibly be a legitimate issue."

I can't belive you just tried to equate ethnic slurs with socks. Next time you have something completely useless to say, please make it about the Yankees.

And if what I said is useless, consider your tripe the kindling to my fire. :furious:

[spoon]

And I can say this, bc of course I'm part Cherokee. :wink:

[Devo37]

i'm posting from the future and find this thread amusing.

here in the year 2150, the World Series was The Australian Sentient Beings of all Non-Discriminitory Natures vs. The Formerly American Northern Continent Heterosexuals, Homosexuals, Bisexuals, Transsexuals, Nonsexuals, and All Others.

both teams won the series, because here in the future we don't want to hurt anyone's self-esteem.

:wacko:

[PapaBear]

And I can say this, bc of course I'm part Cherokee. :wink:
Ready Kilowatt hates the Chargers.

http://www.sjglew.com/ebay/ready.jpg

[spoon]

Fuck Ready! Fuck him in the head!

[underdog]

It's not a racial thing, it's a heritage of the area in question. My high school team from home had this same issue and I just don't get it. If anything, the Fighting Irish is more a racist remark based on their perceived tendency toward fighting.

You really have no idea what you're talking about.

Redskins comes from the bleeding fucking scalps of the native Americans that white people would hunt because we viewed them as animals, and needed to thin the herd, like they were fucking deer.

Its no where fucking close to the Fighting Irish.

[Fezticle98]

Ready Kilowatt? That sounds like an Old Man Whatley reference.

Did he used to encourage kids to finger him? The Kilowatt guy, not Fez.

"Go ahead kids, stick your finger in the socket!"

[TheMojoPin]

i'm posting from the future and find this thread amusing.

here in the year 2150, the World Series was The Australian Sentient Beings of all Non-Discriminitory Natures vs. The Formerly American Northern Continent Heterosexuals, Homosexuals, Bisexuals, Transsexuals, Nonsexuals, and All Others.

both teams won the series, because here in the future we don't want to hurt anyone's self-esteem.

:wacko:

Yes, because everyone is complaining about the majority of sports teams names.

Oh, right, they're not...they're talking about the team named THE MOTHERFUCKING "REDSKINS." The only sports team on college or pro level that even comes close to being that ridiculous if the Fighting Irish. Stop acting like that kind of name is common in ANY major walk of life in the 21st century. People calling out "Redskin" for the inane slur that it actually is isn't any kind of threat to 99.9% of all the other sports teams out there, so unclench and get down off the cross like this is some scary crusade that threatens all kinds of team names and mascots and logos left and right.

I honestly can't believe that you people have the balls to call out people who are pointing out that the term "Redskin" is laughably insulting and outdated and indicative of NOTHING historically except the shitty treatment of Native Americans. And Spoon, you decry this as people ignoring the "real issues," when your bullshit dismissal of this kind of garbage of just indicative of how many people are willfully ignorant of this nation's history and social evolution. The great thing about America is that from day one we have shown that we can typically grow beyond and at least learn something from the stupid and horrible shit that we do over the years. But we have this contingent of stubborn people who, for whatever reason, think that certain aspects of basically growing the fuck up as a country are some kind of a sign of "weakness" or being "too sensitive." Yes, let's not possibly ever learn from anything ever again...everything we do on the first go is right and we should stick with it for years...decades...hell, centuries! Even if it makes us look like total jerkoffs and stunted imbeciles...yeah, it's great! It's the MANLY thing to do! That makes complete sense! It would be a HORRIBLE thing if there wasn't a major organization out there identifying itself explicitly through our country's decimation of the native population. Yes, GOD FORBID that people find that absurd and sad and surreal and laughably stagnant. What was I thinking?

[cupcakelove]

yipee this is about the dumbest thread ever.

[Fezticle98]

Don't even bring up the All Blacks.

[TheMojoPin]

It's not a cop-out, it's just a joke. Most native americans don't give two shits, that's my point. This shit has been tackled soooo many times and it is bullshit PC crap. If you find it offensive, that's your problem. It's not a racial thing, it's a heritage of the area in question. My high school team from home had this same issue and I just don't get it. If anything, the Fighting Irish is more a racist remark based on their perceived tendency toward fighting. Who the hell cares? Perhaps the US team for the Olympics should be changed to the Wizards/Red Storm. How dare we go in as the US team? Bit of a stretch for fun, but come fucking on. I'm sure the intent of these team names were given so Mojo could get on his high horse and call everyone else dumb for disagreeing with him. Sorry, just not a real issue no matter how you look at it until the rename the Rutgers team the White Trash Knights or the FSU team the Drunken Indians.

Please point out how any of this is even remotely close to having the overall implications of the term "Redskin." Like I said, only the Fighting Irish even come close. I'm not taking about names like the "Braves" or "Tomahawks" or whatever...show me other team names that are on par with something like what the Redskins have. Or a logo similar to the face (Chief Wahoo? Come the fuck on) that the Indians use. I know plenty of people gripe about American Indian inconology in general, but I'm not. I'm talking about the two examples that are explicitly birthed out of an incredibly negative context. Is it the end of my world if they never change? Of course not. Do I have to like them? Fuck no. I'm tired of people basically telling me like I have to accept it and just pretend like there's nothing ugly and hateful to it. The "intent" of these things is to represent a time when this country was much stupider than it is now. What's wrong with maybe, just maybe, pointing out that we've hopefully evolved beyond such bullshit to some degree? Wow, whoopedee-doo, we were morons 60-70 years ago when this shit was thought up. What the hell is so goddamn "sacred" about that?

[ToLEEdo]

I was going to mention my Toledo Mud Hens....but then I realized it's a bird.

[TheMojoPin]

http://www.futureofthebook.org/sivavaidhyanathan/archives/fightw.jpg

[TheMojoPin]

On a less serious note, I'm calling out VA Tech and Maryland...Tech, your mascot is a goddamn turkey. Maryland, you're rooting for a fucking turtle. You're not foooling anyone with those names.

[spoon]

You really have no idea what you're talking about.

Redskins comes from the bleeding fucking scalps of the native Americans that white people would hunt because we viewed them as animals, and needed to thin the herd, like they were fucking deer.

Its no where fucking close to the Fighting Irish.

Yah, I've heard that ploy all the time and realize it's NOT the basis of the naming of the team one fucking bit. In fact, there's soda called Cherokee Red (which is the only awesome red soda) and I highly doubt it's a ref to your claim. Now that would be marketing at it's finest. If you really believe the shite you're claming here, you're the funniest poster since Frank Black. I love when people get self righteous and twist facts in order to make things bigger and worse then they are. You should work for the ole' Rev.

:devil2: <--Oh no! That's a ref to killing Indians! Take it down, take it down!

[underdog]

Yah, I've heard that ploy all the time and realize it's NOT the basis of the naming of the team one fucking bit. In fact, there's soda called Cherokee Red (which is the only awesome red soda) and I highly doubt it's a ref to your claim. Now that would be marketing at it's finest. If you really believe the shite you're claming here, you're the funniest poster since Frank Black. I love when people get self righteous and twist facts in order to make things bigger and worse then they are. You should work for the ole' Rev.

I'm sure when they named the team Redskins, it meant something else to them. But its what Redskin means to a lot of Native Americans.

[spoon]

...... And Spoon, you decry this as people ignoring the "real issues," when your bullshit dismissal of this kind of garbage of just indicative of how many people are willfully ignorant of this nation's history and social evolution. The great thing about America is that from day one we have shown that we can typically grow beyond and at least learn something from the stupid and horrible shit that we do over the years. But we have this contingent of stubborn people who, for whatever reason, think that certain aspects of basically growing the fuck up as a country are some kind of a sign of "weakness" or being "too sensitive." Yes, let's not possibly ever learn from anything ever again...everything we do on the first go is right and we should stick with it for years...decades...hell, centuries! Even if it makes us look like total jerkoffs and stunted imbeciles...yeah, it's great! It's the MANLY thing to do! That makes complete sense! It would be a HORRIBLE thing if there wasn't a major organization out there identifying itself explicitly through our country's decimation of the native population. Yes, GOD FORBID that people find that absurd and sad and surreal and laughably stagnant. What was I thinking?


No Mojo, you couldn't be more wrong! You really don't have a clue that we agree 99% of the time on issue concerning politics, especially things of this nature. However, your making this out to be something it quite simply is not. You make this giant leep as if these teams aren't taking a team name as a sign of strength and power and twisting it into a play on our ugly history on the treatment of native americans. As if these teams (college, pro and high school) are doing so as a "in your face" we're the man stance. It simply isn't so. I'm not even coming close to this being a "MANLY" issue, it's a make a issue where this is none. I'm not proud of our contry's history in the treatment of native americans, don't think people bringing light to their plight is wrong or too sensative, and surely don't think we shouldn't acknowledge it, learn from it and grow. You turned this into something in order for you to get on the cross, not someone else needing to get off it. This cross was built by you.

[TheMojoPin]

They used the term "Redskins" because the American attitude towards racial issues 75 years ago was much, much dumber back then. It's that simple. The idiots that named the team were renaming from the Braves when they started playing at Fenway. Jeez, shocker that something this racially moronic came from 1930's Boston. Too many people at the time didn't give a damn about the social or racial implications of something like that, so they named the team that and it stuck. There's no kind of special or important decision behind it...just yet again the theory that if go bck into history, people are stupider than they are now holds true.

[underdog]

Jeez, shocker that something this racially moronic came from 1930's Boston.

You really didn't need to qualify Boston with a year.

[spoon]

Please point out how any of this is even remotely close to having the overall implications of the term "Redskin." Like I said, only the Fighting Irish even come close. I'm not taking about names like the "Braves" or "Tomahawks" or whatever...show me other team names that are on par with something like what the Redskins have. Or a logo similar to the face (Chief Wahoo? Come the fuck on) that the Indians use. I know plenty of people gripe about American Indian inconology in general, but I'm not. I'm talking about the two examples that are explicitly birthed out of an incredibly negative context. Is it the end of my world if they never change? Of course not. Do I have to like them? Fuck no. I'm tired of people basically telling me like I have to accept it and just pretend like there's nothing ugly and hateful to it. The "intent" of these things is to represent a time when this country was much stupider than it is now. What's wrong with maybe, just maybe, pointing out that we've hopefully evolved beyond such bullshit to some degree? Wow, whoopedee-doo, we were morons 60-70 years ago when this shit was thought up. What the hell is so goddamn "sacred" about that?


If, and only if your theory is right on why this team got it's name I'd surely back your argument. However, do you really think we have come that far!? Have you ever heard the average conversation on the middle east? Have you ever tried to discuss religion with someone and have them listen to points on something not within their own belief? Speaking of the goofy Chief Wahoo, is that such a bad thing? It's a goofy mascot/character, who cares!? Should white, better yet asian (i get jokes) people get mad bc Homer Simpson is a dolt? I know another stretch, but in this country is it really? People may eventually go that far as well. Yet if something is based in hate I would surely say get rid of it, but should we make the rule a template only to be abused like so many laws today. Hell, I used to love hanging things from my boat with a special not but it's banged/illegal now bc of the new noose legislation. Sometimes I think we govern/make decissions based only on the lowest common denominator, wanting things to be what they aren't for some creepy reason.

[Devo37]

http://www.futureofthebook.org/sivavaidhyanathan/archives/fightw.jpg

as a white man, i'm not offended.

on a serious note, redskins is a bit offensive, but teams don't choose their names in order to insult themselves or others. team names like the redskins or the warriors or whatnot are most likely chosen to evoke the strength of the group chosen in the name. politically-incorrect as the names may be now, they weren't chosen as slurs.

as for cleveland indians, the term native american is relatively new. indian was the proper american-english word to describe that race of people until recently. the cartoon indian is a bit too red, but tone the skin color down to a more brownish shade, and i don't see anything offensive about it.

[TheMojoPin]

No Mojo, you couldn't be more wrong! You really don't have a clue that we agree 99% of the time on issue concerning politics, especially things of this nature. However, your making this out to be something it quite simply is not. You make this giant leep as if these teams aren't taking a team name as a sign of strength and power and twisting it into a play on our ugly history on the treatment of native americans. As if these teams (college, pro and high school) are doing so as a "in your face" we're the man stance. It simply isn't so. I'm not even coming close to this being a "MANLY" issue, it's a make a issue where this is none. I'm not proud of our contry's history in the treatment of native americans, don't think people bringing light to their plight is wrong or too sensative, and surely don't think we shouldn't acknowledge it, learn from it and grow. You turned this into something in order for you to get on the cross, not someone else needing to get off it. This cross was built by you.

And using the term "Redskin" today as if it's a sign of "strength and power" is just absurd, period. This isn't "my issue." I'm not the one talking like something valuable and important would be lost if people didn't name their pro teams something like "the Redskins." I just think the use of it is stupid and ultimately pointless. Countless other sports team names before that time, at that time and since were magically able to created without anything even close to the implications of "Redskin." What's wrong with pointing out that team name for the laughably stupid and outdated exception that is? All it is is reflective of an uglier time in our history in terms of social understanding.

And who is "making this an issue?" We're people talking about it on a message board. So many of you people trying to shoot down those of us that don't like the name like we or anyone else is actively trying to get the name changed on any kind of signifcant level. The underlying implication seems to be, "if you talk about it, someone is gonna get an idea about changing the name, so shut up!" So what's the answer? We CAN'T talk about it? Or we just can't talk about how we don't like the name? All I'm doing is saying I think it's a terrible name and why I think it is. And nobody seems willing to take an opposing viewpoint and instead just want to talk about how thinking the name is stupid is a viewpoint I shouldn't have.

All the other stuff was me responding to multiple posters and multiple points raised in this thread, so stop acting like it's all directed at you.

[spoon]

You really didn't need to qualify Boston with a year.

Now that's funny. Sorry Fallon you racist!

[TheMojoPin]

as a white man, i'm not offended.

You're not supposed to be. It's an example of how dumb it is to be naming teams on a racial basis.

on a serious note, redskins is a bit offensive, but teams don't choose their names in order to insult themselves or others. team names like the redskins or the warriors or whatnot are most likely chosen to evoke the strength of the group chosen in the name. politically-incorrect as the names may be now, they weren't chosen as slurs.

I buy that totally with something like "the Braves" or "the Indians"...but "Redskin" was a slur even then. And it's aged horribly, essentially leaving it as a holdover from eras in our history where we were much less tolerant. Why is that something to cherish or celebrate?

as for cleveland indians, the term native american is relatively new. indian was the proper american-english word to describe that race of people until recently. the cartoon indian is a bit too red, but tone the skin color down to a more brownish shade, and i don't see anything offensive about it.


I haven't said anything about the term "Indian." That logo is just ridiculous on so many levels beyond the skin color.

Again, I think both of these examples are the the very extreme exceptions, not the norm. People keep responding like I'm ranting about a ton of sports names and macots, and I'm not. I just think these two are light years beyond all others in terms of how outdated and ludicrous they are.

[TheMojoPin]

Should white, better yet asian (i get jokes) people get mad bc Homer Simpson is a dolt?

How does this example even work? Homer Simpsons has never been presented as the mascot for an entire social group like Chief Wahoo of the Indians or the Redskins are ultimately supposed to be. He's Homer Simpson, lovable idiot...not Homer White of the White People, nor has ever been presented as such.

[spoon]

And using the term "Redskin" today as if it's a sign of "strength and power" is just absurd, period. This isn't "my issue." I'm not the one talking like something valuable and important would be lost if people didn't name their pro teams something like "the Redskins." I just think the use of it is stupid and ultimately pointless. Countless other sports team names before that time, at that time and since were magically able to created without anything even close to the implications of "Redskin." What's wrong with pointing out that team name for the laughably stupid and outdated exception that is? All it is is reflective of an uglier time in our history in terms of social understanding.

And who is "making this an issue?" We're people talking about it on a message board. So many of you people trying to shoot down those of us that don't like the name like we or anyone else is actively trying to get the name changed on any kind of signifcant level. The underlying implication seems to be, "if you talk about it, someone is gonna get an idea about changing the name, so shut up!" So what's the answer? We CAN'T talk about it? Or we just can't talk about how we don't like the name?

No Mojo, now ur twisting again. Of course I want to talk about it, that's why I am doing just that. I'm stating your creating the issue, as many others out there, in regard to the reason behind the name. Boston's background aside, do you really believe they were going for the angle you state in the formation of this team? The "Hey let's start a football team and name it after a thinly veiled play on words for killing indians on top of a descriptive term". Brillant!

All I'm doing is saying I think it's a terrible name and why I think it is. And nobody seems willing to take an opposing viewpoint and instead just want to talk about how thinking the name is stupid is a viewpoint I shouldn't have.

I really think I've gone deeper then that.

All the other stuff was me responding to multiple posters and multiple points raised in this thread, so stop acting like it's all directed at you.

Right back at you Mr. Happy.


:bye:

[spoon]

How does this example even work? Homer Simpsons has never been presented as the mascot for an entire social group like Chief Wahoo of the Indians or the Redskins are ultimately supposed to be. He's Homer Simpson, lovable idiot...not Homer White of the White People, nor has ever been presented as such.

It was a long stretch, more of a joke as I stated. Here, how about this as a real example.

http://thesource.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/07/09/padres.jpg

http://images.acclaimimages.com/_gallery/_SM/0037-0407-3106-2551_SM.jpg

Oh my god!! Another caricature but this time making fun of the majority....that's fine. Wahoo is really no different.

[Devo37]

I buy that totally with something like "the Braves" or "the Indians"...but "Redskin" was a slur even then. And it's aged horribly, essentially leaving it as a holdover from eras in our history where we were much less tolerant. Why is that something to cherish or celebrate?

i've heard a few different stories as to the origin of the name Redskins, but at any rate, if they do choose to rename the team, i would go with Pigskins. PETA be damned!!!

/i'm on a bold and italic kick tonight...

[spoon]

And if the Cleveland brass were smart, they'd rename the guy Chief Yahoo and make a bundle in ad sales. I could see the guy running all over the park screeming YAHoo whenever any Indian got a hit or made an important play!

[TheMojoPin]

It was a long stretch, more of a joke as I stated. Here, how about this as a real example.

http://thesource.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/07/09/padres.jpg

http://images.acclaimimages.com/_gallery/_SM/0037-0407-3106-2551_SM.jpg

Oh my god!! Another caricature but this time making fun of the majority....that's fine. Wahoo is really no different.

Except the "padre" doesn't have the violent and controversial history that the Native American has. Chief Wahoo is essentially turning a national tragedy into a racial caricature...a cartoon. The Padre's padre is...a padre. What is the negative context that we're not seeing here?

No Mojo, now ur twisting again. Of course I want to talk about it, that's why I am doing just that. I'm stating your creating the issue, as many others out there, in regard to the reason behind the name. Boston's background aside, do you really believe they were going for the angle you state in the formation of this team? The "Hey let's start a football team and name it after a thinly veiled play on words for killing indians on top of a descriptive term". Brillant!

The "angle?" My "angle" is that they were basically clueless and didn't give a rat's ass about the implication of the name. I never said they did it on purpose to be as offensive as possible...I'm saying it's offensive NOW as being reflective of a time when too many Americans were just flat out morons about the racial issues in this country and in our history.

[spoon]

Here's a post from another site that makes me rethink even my theory on the name origin. Any thoughts....?

"I don't think any racist images should be used as mascots, but if they agree to spread the honor--when we have the Washington Blackskins or the San Francisco Chinks or the Los Angeles Chicanos--I'll shut my mouth. Nobody would consider anything like that, but it's okay to treat Indian culture as something other than human."

Pat Merzlak, Nurse

:surrender:

[TheMojoPin]

i've heard a few different stories as to the origin of the name Redskins, but at any rate, if they do choose to rename the team, i would go with Pigskins. PETA be damned!!!

/i'm on a bold and italic kick tonight...

What origin frames it as anything except derogatory at the very least? At it's most "innocent," it's meant to simplify mutliple cultures down to the false color of their skin over everything else. It's incredibly dehumanizing. They don't even get the favor of being called "Indians" or by their tribes...there's really no way around it being the equivalent of "whitey" or "darky" or worse. It's a negative relic of our past. I really don't see how it can be spun or dressed up into something positive, especially since there's so many other terms and names that can be used to reflect the "power and strength" of the Native Americans.

[spoon]

Except the "padre" doesn't have the violent and controversial history that the Native American has. Chief Wahoo is essentially turning a national tragedy into a racial caricature...a cartoon. The Padre's padre is...a padre. What is the negative context that we're not seeing here?

And an Indian Chief is just that. Where do you get this notion that they're named the Cleveland Indian Massacred Chiefs?



The "angle?" My "angle" is that they were basically clueless and didn't give a rat's ass about the implication of the name. I never said they did it on purpose to be as offensive as possible...I'm saying it's offensive NOW as being reflective of a time when too many Americans were just flat out morons about the racial issues in this country and in our history.

I still don't buy into your reflection of past offenses "ANGLE".
.

[TheMojoPin]

And an Indian Chief is just that. Where do you get this notion that they're named the Cleveland Indian Massacred Chiefs?

I never said they were. Stay with me here...the overall history of the Native Americans is inherrently tragic and a massively negative part of our nation history. Our understanding of them now is essentially shaped by how the European colonists and their descendents ultimately all but destroyed them, much of that destruction being purposefully done.

Now you take that national perception and boil it down into a logo that is nothing but a cartoon that is the equivalent of a sambo cartoon. It is not a "typical" cartoon...it is specifically racially exagerrated. The contrast between these two perceptions is staggering. A cartoon like that not only essentially dismisses the negative history of Native Americans, but almost insults it further by being ridiculously jeering and cartoonish. Comapre it to the Redskins' logo, or the Braves'...do you not see the clear difference between logos that refer to the Native Americans in general and one that goes out of its way to turn them into a garish cartoon? Because the identity of the Native American is one that is unavoidable wrapped in tragedy and negativety, so much moreso than any other social group in this country with the exception of African Americans (though I'd argue that the Native American's actually "got it" much worse), it just makes the insensitive mocking of their entire existence, intetional or not, through a cartoon that much more sad and noticeable.

I still don't buy into your reflection of past offenses "ANGLE".

You're going to have specify what exactly my "angle" is and what you're not "buying into," because I have no idea what you're talking about.

[Devo37]

boy, Mojo's fiesty tonight!! must be something in the water in chicAAAAAAAAAAgo! :tongue:

g'night all!

[Yerdaddy]

OK, so what I take from this is all the kidding aside, it seems everyone agrees to some degree that it is offensive. So why dont they change them? I know why no one is upset with Notre Dame, it's because the fighting irish is not offensve. The drink Mik's would be offensive.

I Don't even think there were any large aboriginal populations in Cleavland or Washington DC in the first place.

When I get back to Phnom Penh I'll ask my Irish friend if he's offended by it right after he finishes his first kickboxing match. Honestly, I think the Irish would be thrilled if you changed it to "Drunken Micks".

[Yerdaddy]

The Braves and the name "the Indians" don't really bug me, but the Indians' logo is one of the most absurdly racist things I've ever seen. It boggles my mind that we see dozens of idiots in "red face" during these playoffs. And the name "Redskins?" Christ. "Traditions" or not, both of those things are just ridiculous.

I agree. Keep the name but change the logo to a white hand holding a Royal Flush. You won't hear a peep out of any Native American tribal groups and you might even recieve a duffel bag full of cash from Jack Abramoff that's been laundered through the Republican National Committee.

[spoon]

When I get back to Phnom Penh I'll ask my Irish friend if he's offended by it right after he finishes his first kickboxing match. Honestly, I think the Irish would be thrilled if you changed it to "Drunken Micks".

But what about the link to the terrible treatment of the Irish in US history (for mojo).

[spoon]

I agree. Keep the name but change the logo to a white hand holding a Royal Flush. You won't hear a peep out of any Native American tribal groups and you might even recieve a duffel bag full of cash from Jack Abramoff that's been laundered through the Republican National Committee.

Awful and hilarious!

This is the same phrase Yerdaddy hears right after he sleeps with women! Ohhhh! Sorry, no dick dart angle on that one.

[TheMojoPin]

But what about the link to the terrible treatment of the Irish in US history (for mojo).

That's why I said the Fighting Irish and their logo are the only thing that even comes close...but then the crap the Irish went through here is pretty miniscule compared to almost total extermination of the Native Americans, y'know, if we're rating it on some kind of fake "awfulness" scale.

[spoon]

It's been fun to debate this moj, but I'm off. U still need to answer my pm on the bet!

Cyah.

[Yerdaddy]

Awful and hilarious!

This is the same phrase Yerdaddy hears right after he sleeps with women! Ohhhh! Sorry, no dick dart angle on that one.

It's angled right at your penis pump, so watch it buddy or you'll have TWO chewed up old baloon knots! With AIDS!

[Yerdaddy]

team names and logos are a tradition, and should be held proudly.
long live the indian chop! (whatever it is that braves fans do)

take the cocks out of your asses.

if this liberal thinking is allowed to infiltrate sports, the next team might be named the
"memphis metrosexuals" or "lewisburg lollipops"

be a man

You mean "be a whore". By the same rationale it's conservative thinking like yours that whored out the "tradition" of naming stadiums after great Americans, pioneers of the sport or the cities they represented to the highest bidder. So now we've got the Redskins playing at FedEx field instead of RFK stadium and it was your thinking that replaced the Astrodome with Enron Field, (now Minute Maid Park because of the embarassment). If your views on "tradition" went unchallenged Soldier Field, named as a memorial to war vetrans, would be Haliburton Park and it'd be "whites only". Spare us your phony devotion to tradition.

[topless_mike]

"well, then i am offended that the nj hockey team is the devils because i am a catholic.."

blah blah blah blow it out your ass.


sorry guys, im done with this thread. too many people have their panties in a bunch.

btw- i am polish, and if there was to be a pro team named after some polish ethnic slur or auschwitz reference, i wouldnt give 2 shits.
why?

more important things in life.

sorry if some stupid logo or team name boils your skin, but again


build a bridge and get over it.

[A.J.]

Homer Simpsons has never been presented as the mascot for an entire social group like Chief Wahoo of the Indians or the Redskins are ultimately supposed to be. He's Homer Simpson, lovable idiot...not Homer White of the White People, nor has ever been presented as such.

And if you don't like him, you can kiss his yellow butt.

I think Redskins owner Dan Snyder should change the name of the team to the Washington Hebes in order to honor the proud tradition of Jewish owners and agents. Here's a logo he can use.

http://www.geheugenvannederland.nl/tentoonstellingen/Niod_nl/jood.jpg

Would he be offended by that?

It's amazing that a majority-black city like DC has perhaps the most blatantly racist name and logo (and lame-ass fight song) in sports.

[TheMojoPin]

"well, then i am offended that the nj hockey team is the devils because i am a catholic.."

blah blah blah blow it out your ass.


sorry guys, im done with this thread. too many people have their panties in a bunch.

btw- i am polish, and if there was to be a pro team named after some polish ethnic slur or auschwitz reference, i wouldnt give 2 shits.
why?

more important things in life.

sorry if some stupid logo or team name boils your skin, but again


build a bridge and get over it.

Nobody is impressed, intimidated or swayed by your complete apathy. Your argument effectively amounts to, "I don't give a shit about anything except what I agree with." You're basically a lazy, halfassed nihilist who goes out of his way to have as little impact as possible because of some completely made up excuse about "tradition."

[topless_mike]

You're basically a lazy, halfassed nihilist who goes out of his way to have as little impact as possible because of some completely made up excuse about "tradition."

dood, thats kind taking this a tad far.
its only a message board. relax. go hug your wife/girlfriend or something.

[CountryBob]

I would really like someone to explain to me how a sports team name can make somone so racially/emotionally charged. Does the name really really hurt you or are you an individual who just needs something to complain about? I am a dumb hillbilly who needs to be educated on this issue - I am so tired of race battles - let's all just have a beer and talk about the titties on the chick at the end of the bar.

[ryno1974]

I would really like someone to explain to me how a sports team name can make somone so racially/emotionally charged. Does the name really really hurt you or are you an individual who just needs something to complain about? I am a dumb hillbilly who needs to be educated on this issue - I am so tired of race battles - let's all just have a beer and talk about the titties on the chick at the end of the bar.

I think the titties thing and the having a beer thing are great ideas. HOWEVER, the thing about really really hurting? Yes, those type os slurs hurt people. Not hard to understand, even those of you that are arguing with me on this one. You sentiment is bang on - lets all just fucking get along. And the ONLY way to do that is to stop disrespecting each other.

Simple. Just like the fools that cling to the name Indians and Redskins as "OK".

[TheMojoPin]

dood, thats kind taking this a tad far.
its only a message board. relax. go hug your wife/girlfriend or something.

Your attempts at political discourse sound like lazy nihilism. This really only strengthens that theory.

And the guy calling everyone who disagrees with him on this "pussies" is now feeling things have gone too far?

[riverofpiss]

That's the end of the fun in this thread:ohmy: