Saudi Arabia punishes gang rape victim with 200 lashes

[A.J.]

You read that right -- the rape VICTIM was punished (http://www.thepeninsulaqatar.com/Display_news.asp?section=World_News&month=November2007&file=World_News200711168358.xml). Seems she committed the sin of being around men who weren't her relatives.

Just a little sample of life in the Kingdom...where justice depends on what the Quran says.

[cupcakelove]

They're one of our best allies in the Middle East!! I'm happy we can be associated with them and their fake islands.

[Furtherman]

The only place where "She was askin' for it" is a viable defence. Awful.

[Dougie Brootal]

Saudi Arabia punishes gang rape victim with 200 lashes

sounds about right

[feralBoy]

isn't the real lesson that she was only gonna get 90 lashes, but then she decided to get lippy.

[Dougie Brootal]

isn't the real lesson that she was only gonna get 90 lashes, but then she decided to get lippy.

apparently no one ever showed the little lady this:
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g130/douggrasso/bitchshutup.jpg


ha bet you thought it was gonna be the "shut the fuck up cunt" pic didnt ya?

[Snoogans]

They're one of our best allies in the Middle East!! I'm happy we can be associated with them and their fake islands.

That's Dubai, ass. It's a different country

[cupcakelove]

That's Dubai, ass. It's a different country

Yeah, I got them confused, ok, I'm glad to be associated with them and their giant palaces. Happy now?

[Snoogans]

Yeah, I got them confused, ok, I'm glad to be associated with them and their giant palaces. Happy now?

I don't know how associated we are with Saudi Arabia. We may be to some degree, but I can't imagine liking them much.

[cupcakelove]

I don't know how associated we are with Saudi Arabia. We may be to some degree, but I can't imagine liking them much.

I do know that they are big allies, second only to Israel I think. I'll wait for AJ or Yerdaddy to chime in with the correct answer.

[topless_mike]

they are
along with turkey and jordan.

[Furtherman]

http://freund.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/bush_saudi.jpg

They're only our Allies because of the oil. I'm sure they have the same thoughts in private about Israel as Iran says in public.

[topless_mike]

http://freund.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/bush_saudi.jpg

They're only our Allies because of the oil. I'm sure they have the same thoughts in private about Israel as Iran says in public.

QFT

[TheMojoPin]

Doug, try to be a little bit less of an ass.

It bugs me to no end that the US drops to its knees for Saudi Arabia constantly and its their money and publishing companies that are most responsible for spreading the extremist, violent Sharia Islam that's spread around the world in the last 20-30 years. It's insane that they're doing the most to spread these ideas and we want them to be our best friends in the ME not named Israel. It's even more ridiculous considering guys like Osama have flat out said that our involvement in Saudi Arabia is what most drives them when they go after American targets.

It's also fucked up how the victim is part of the oppressed Shia minority and the rapists were all from the Shi'ite majority. Yeah, I'm sure that had NOTHING to do with the sentences. The Shia are easily the most demonized group actually living in Arabic countries...except in Iran, where they are the majority.

[Dougie Brootal]

Doug, try to be a little bit less of an ass.

i tried! i didnt put up the one you really hate, i made an effort!

[topless_mike]

also: the victim gets punished for being with un-related males.
hey, its their country, they have every right to rule it how they wish, but that i just another example of what happens when you allow religion to run your life.

and i agree with mojo:
why do we keep trying to be all nicey nicey with them when they spew nothing but hate towards us.

$
thats why.

[epo]

And today it came out that Bush wants to sell them weapons. Link to story here (http://www.guardian.co.uk/feedarticle?id=7081221). That's one great "friend" we have.

I'm so flustered by this, my only reaction is to go take a nap.

[djjd]

http://freund.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/bush_saudi.jpg

They're only our Allies because of the oil. I'm sure they have the same thoughts in private about Israel as Iran says in public.

i'm pretty sure most of the neo cons in washington have the same thoughts

[lleeder]

So if her brother had raped her she would have been better off?

[sailor]

i'm pretty sure most of the neo cons in washington have the same thoughts

that's just a silly statement.

[underdog]

It sucks that when I hear something like this coming out of a Muslim country, I'm never really that surprised.

[torker]

what the Quran says
And love is fine for all we know
For all we know, our love will grow
That’s what the Quran said
So won’t you listen to what the Quran said

[Chigworthy]

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g130/douggrasso/bitchshutup.jpg


Is that Reilly?

[cupcakelove]

Is that Reilly?

No! And you should be more careful.

[Bulldogcakes]

i'm pretty sure most of the neo cons in washington have the same thoughts

Most of the neo cons are Jewish.

[cozzie]

Get ready to beat me up. There are religous nuts all over this world. They have their nuts, beating and stoning women, who are in a group of men that they are not related to, over here we have nuts shooting doctors & blowing up buildings , because women were with some scumbag who shot a load into them , instead of pulling out.

just my thoughts , beat me up if you wish.

[Midkiff]

Get ready to beat me up. There are religous nuts all over this world. They have their nuts, beating and stoning women, who are in a group of men that they are not related to, over here we have nuts shooting doctors & blowing up buildings , because women were with some scumbag who shot a load into them , instead of pulling out.

just my thoughts , beat me up if you wish.

it aint just the nuts, its the whole goofy religion. stupid monkey camel jockeys

[sailor]

Most of the neo cons are Jewish.

that's just a silly statement.

[scottinnj]

Get ready to beat me up. There are religous nuts all over this world. They have their nuts, beating and stoning women, who are in a group of men that they are not related to, over here we have nuts shooting doctors & blowing up buildings , because women were with some scumbag who shot a load into them , instead of pulling out.

just my thoughts , beat me up if you wish.

I don't want to beat you up, just put a bit of perspective on it. Over here, 7 people have been murdered by right wing nuts in connection to abortion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion-related_violence). And when they are caught, they are put on trial by the government. In fact, Paul Hill was put to death by the State of Florida in 1994 for killing Dr. John Britton (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,96286,00.html). Over there, it's the government that carries out the religious punishments, and in doing so endorses the Islamo-Fascists.

And while there is no excuse for violence against abortion clinics and the doctors who perform abortions, be very glad that organizations like the (Caution: following link is NOT SAFE FOR WORK!) Army of God (http://www.armyofgod.com/) are unwelcome in the mainstream pro-life movement-while over there this is common and accepted in the Muslim world and protected by the government.

[scottinnj]

They're only our Allies because of the oil. I'm sure they have the same thoughts in private about Israel as Iran says in public.

i'm pretty sure most of the neo cons in washington have the same thoughts

Most of the neo cons are Jewish.



Thank You Bulldogcakes for remembering that one. The name "neocon" has been villified so badly in the media that most people think its a term for the "rapture righties" that are supposedly setting up the Middle East for Jesus' return. Instead, it is the opposite. The "NeoCons" are the ones who, whether they are Jewish or Gentile, recognize that Isreal is the only stable democracy in the Middle East. And that it is constantly under the threat of attack by unstable Islamic countries and the terrorists they give aid and shelter to. They want America's Middle East policy to reflect that, and to keep Isreal from being wiped off the map or "pushed into the sea"-which many leaders of the surrounding countries have sworn to do since 1948.

[DarkHippie]

Originally Posted by Bulldogcakes
Most of the neo cons are Jewish.

And yet most jews are democrats . . . go fig.
And there's that whole neocon-bible belt connection, lots of jews there.
I dunno, that statements as shaky as Michael J Fox having an orgasm

[high fly]

I don't know how associated we are with Saudi Arabia. We may be to some degree, but I can't imagine liking them much.


Former CIA case officer Robert Baer wrote an excellent book about our relationship with saudi Arabia and how they have bought an incredible amount of influence in America.
Hell, their longterm ambassador is so close to them that the Bushes call him "Bandar Bush."
The Saudis have puit lots of wives of important people on high-paying "advisory committees" just to get them on the payroll.
They have also hired former CIA and FBI directors, ambassadors and other high-level officials.


The Saudis are so secure in having sewn up so much influence that Prince Bandar is quioted as stating the system rather bluntly.

He says something to the effect of:

"People see their co-workers and others being handsomely rewarded by us after they leave government service so they know they will benefit greatly by acting in our interest before they retire."

Baer's book is quite an eye-opener.

[epo]

Former CIA case officer Robert Baer wrote an excellent book about our relationship with saudi Arabia and how they have bought an incredible amount of influence in America.
Hell, their longterm ambassador is so close to them that the Bushes call him "Bandar Bush."
The Saudis have puit lots of wives of important people on high-paying "advisory committees" just to get them on the payroll.
They have also hired former CIA and FBI directors, ambassadors and other high-level officials.


The Saudis are so secure in having sewn up so much influence that Prince Bandar is quioted as stating the system rather bluntly.

He says something to the effect of:

"People see their co-workers and others being handsomely rewarded by us after they leave government service so they know they will benefit greatly by acting in our interest before they retire."

Baer's book is quite an eye-opener.

Isn't Baer's book the basis for the movie Syrianna?

[sailor]

And yet most jews are democrats . . . go fig.
And there's that whole neocon-bible belt connection, lots of jews there.
I dunno, that statements as shaky as Michael J Fox having an orgasm

not at all, i think you were missing the point. someone implied that the neocons were against israel. this is laughable as most of the neocons are jewish (irv kristol, norm podhoretz, paul wolfowitz, et al.) and are staunch supporters of israel. they've often been accused of "serving two flags," ours and israel's. personally, i think that's an unfair attack, but to then turn around and say they're anti-israel is just a silly statement.

[TheMojoPin]

Isn't Baer's book the basis for the movie Syrianna?

Very, very, very, very, VERY loosely.

[TheMojoPin]

not at all, i think you were missing the point. someone implied that the neocons were against israel. this is laughable as most of the neocons are jewish (irv kristol, norm podhoretz, paul wolfowitz, et al.) and are staunch supporters of israel. they've often been accused of "serving two flags," ours and israel's. personally, i think that's an unfair attack, but to then turn around and say they're anti-israel is just a silly statement.

Yeah, pretty much. Defending Israel no matter what is one of the neo-cons key (and few) specifc foreign policy points.

[A.J.]

They're one of our best allies in the Middle East!! I'm happy we can be associated with them and their fake islands.

That's Dubai, ass. It's a different country

Yeah, I got them confused, ok, I'm glad to be associated with them and their giant palaces. Happy now?

Dubai started the trend but pretty much all the Gulf states are building artificial islands. This is primarily to attract foreign investment and to allow expats to purchase residences within those countries.

I do know that they are big allies, second only to Israel I think. I'll wait for AJ or Yerdaddy to chime in with the correct answer.

They have been our allies since before World War II. The initial partnership began in the 1930s when King 'Abd Al-'Aziz bin Sa'ud, the founder of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, allowed U.S. oil companies to explore for oil in the Kingdom. This helped lead to the establishment of Saudi Aramco. The partnership was further solidified in 1945 during this meeting between FDR and King 'Abd Al-'Aziz aboard the USS Quincy.

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/ac00001/ac00545.jpg

During the 1950s, King Sa'ud allowed U.S. airbases in Dharhan to be a forward base during the Cold War and to help defend the oil fields there.

But, yes, oil has been the basis of the relationship throughout the years.

It bugs me to no end that the US drops to its knees for Saudi Arabia constantly and its their money and publishing companies that are most responsible for spreading the extremist, violent Sharia Islam that's spread around the world in the last 20-30 years. It's insane that they're doing the most to spread these ideas and we want them to be our best friends in the ME not named Israel. It's even more ridiculous considering guys like Osama have flat out said that our involvement in Saudi Arabia is what most drives them when they go after American targets.

It's also fucked up how the victim is part of the oppressed Shia minority and the rapists were all from the Shi'ite majority. Yeah, I'm sure that had NOTHING to do with the sentences. The Shia are easily the most demonized group actually living in Arabic countries...except in Iran, where they are the majority.

For years now, the Saudis have been using petrodollars to fund NGOs and Quran publishing centers to help prostheltyze their form of "correct" (called "Wahabbi" or "Salafist") Sunni Islam.

You have to be careful about saying UBL is upset about our "involvement" in Saudi Arabia. Specifically, he was angry about the presence of infidels in the land of the Two Holy Mosques. What the dipshit failed to realize is that at no time were Americans ever even near Makkah or Madinah -- two cities that non-Muslims are forbidden from entering.

You're absolutely right about the victim being Shia coming into play. The Shia are treated like shit within the Kingdom. Even though King 'Abdallah has tried to mend fences with the Shia minority, most of them live in the oil-rich Eastern Province, share little in the oil profits, and are held on a tight leash.

It's important to note that there is one Arabic country where the Shia aren't oppressed: Bahrain. It has a Shia majority but the ruling royal family there is Sunni. It's a credit to the tiny nation that both sides can get along with each other...as well as a minority Christian community.

And today it came out that Bush wants to sell them weapons. Link to story here (http://www.guardian.co.uk/feedarticle?id=7081221). That's one great "friend" we have.

Actually, that came out a month ago when Secretary Rice traveled to the region.

So if her brother had raped her she would have been better off?

Actually, yes. That happens a lot there too.

And love is fine for all we know
For all we know, our love will grow
That’s what the Quran said
So won’t you listen to what the Quran said

:clap:

[TheMojoPin]

For years now, the Saudis have been using petrodollars to fund NGOs and Quran publishing centers to help prostheltyze their form of "correct" (called "Wahabbi" or "Salafist") Sunni Islam.

Gah, thanks for correcting that. I meant to say Wahabbi and totally got mixed up.

[ralphbxny]

So if her brother had raped her she would have been better off?

Only in the south

[Yerdaddy]

For years now, the Saudis have been using petrodollars to fund NGOs and Quran publishing centers to help prostheltyze their form of "correct" (called "Wahabbi" or "Salafist") Sunni Islam.

Which should not be confused with the violent neo-Salafism that Bin Laden and most Islamic terrorists follow. It is ultra-conservative, and a big factor in the repression of Muslims everywhere, but it's not the main inspiration for violent jihad.

[earthbrown]

I think 11 of the 19, 9-11 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia, yet we fight in Iraq and afganistan, while blowing Saudi Arabia....

I am a conservative, BUT Bush is an ass, only interested in bankrupting the country with this war and making the upper class more $$$$.


K

[WRESTLINGFAN]

it aint just the nuts, its the whole goofy religion. stupid monkey camel jockeys

Jim Norton said it best. Dont let a few hundred million of them spoil the whole bunch

[A.J.]

I think 11 of the 19, 9-11 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia, yet we fight in Iraq and afganistan, while blowing Saudi Arabia....

Precisely why bin Ladin selected them -- to help drive a wedge between the U.S.-Saudi alliance.

[Yerdaddy]

Jim Norton said it best. Dont let a few hundred million of them spoil the whole bunch

Useless piece of shit.

[Yerdaddy]

Precisely why bin Ladin selected them -- to help drive a wedge between the U.S.-Saudi alliance.

Maybe, but according to the 9-11 Commission Report Saudis and Egyptians were chosen from a pool of candidates from many countries because the special expedited visa procedures with those two countries made their nationals more likely to get past our security checks. It's the kind of rational strategic thought that allowed them to pull off the act of using our own planes as bombs against our buildings, and yet Americans have never stopped using the ideologically-motivated simplification falacy that the nationality of the hijackers is simply a representation of which countries are our enemies. And it's why al-Qaeda keeps outsmarting us.

[A.J.]

Precisely why bin Ladin selected them -- to help drive a wedge between the U.S.-Saudi alliance.

and yet Americans have never stopped using the ideologically-motivated simplification falacy that the nationality of the hijackers is simply a representation of which countries are our enemies. And it's why al-Qaeda keeps outsmarting us.

Which is why I shake my head in disgust when I hear certain members of Congress and the Administration keep harping on this fact as they continue to bash the Saudis for "not doing enough to stop terrorism".

[TheMojoPin]

But..THEY HATE OUR FREEDOM.

[A.J.]

But..THEY HATE OUR FREEDOM.

Everytime I hear that I want to vomit in terror.

Maybe Dubya would learn something...if he actually visited the fucking region. A state visit like that would go a HUGE way over there with the people we're asking to step it up against terrorism...and yet beat up publically.

[Ritalin]

Maybe, but according to the 9-11 Commission Report Saudis and Egyptians were chosen from a pool of candidates from many countries because the special expedited visa procedures with those two countries made their nationals more likely to get past our security checks. It's the kind of rational strategic thought that allowed them to pull off the act of using our own planes as bombs against our buildings, and yet Americans have never stopped using the ideologically-motivated simplification falacy that the nationality of the hijackers is simply a representation of which countries are our enemies. And it's why al-Qaeda keeps outsmarting us.

I've never heard that. It makes a lot of sense.

[Yerdaddy]

I've never heard that. It makes a lot of sense.

I strongly reccommend reading the 9-11 Commission Report as it was universally praised for it's thorough, non-partisan and readable history of events leading up to the 9-11 attacks. However, I strongly reccommend NOT reading the report's reccommendations as they are worthless and misguided, (read Anthony Cordesman's assessment for a head-slapping review of why the commission's reccommendations suck so much ass).

[Bulldogcakes]

that's just a silly statement.

And yet most jews are democrats . . . go fig.
And there's that whole neocon-bible belt connection, lots of jews there.
I dunno, that statements as shaky as Michael J Fox having an orgasm

Read this
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservatism)
The development of this conservatism is based on the work and thought of Irving Kristol, co-founder of Encounter magazine, and of its editor (1953–58),[5] Norman Podhoretz,[6] and others who described themselves as "neoconservatives" during the Cold War.

Prominent neoconservatives are associated with periodicals such as Commentary and The Weekly Standard, and with foreign policy initiatives of think tanks such as the American Enterprise Institute (AEI), the Project for the New American Century (PNAC), and the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs (JINSA).

You guys obviously aren't familiar with Neocons, who they are and what its all about. There's a handful of them in Washington, it has nothing to do with the "Religious Right", although they share some goals and values. They were credited (or blamed, depending on your POV) as being the intellectual driving force behind the war in Iraq.

[sailor]

Read this
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservatism)


You guys obviously aren't familiar with Neocons, who they are and what its all about. There's a handful of them in Washington, it has nothing to do with the "Religious Right", although they share some goals and values. They were credited (or blamed, depending on your POV) as being the intellectual driving force behind the war in Iraq.

you obviously aren't familiar with my other posts in this thread.

[A.J.]

Clinton: Saudi rape verdict 'an outrage' (http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/11/21/saudi.rape.victim/index.html)

Labeling it "an outrage", Sen. Clinton urged the U.S. government to protest the decision.

"The Bush administration has refused to condemn the sentence and said it will not protest an internal Saudi decision," the Democratic presidential frontrunner said in a statement.

"I urge President Bush to call on King Abdullah to cancel the ruling and drop all charges against this woman."

While I agree with Hillary (I don't believe I just typed that) that this ruling should be protested/condemned/whatever, I wish she would realize that such a thing isn't that simple and could have severe repercussions. To criticize the Saudi legal system is to criticize their religion (Sharia/Islamic law is a literal interpretation of the Quran) and centuries of Arab tradition. I'm not saying it's right by any means but to bash the Saudis again -- especially over an internal matter with religious overtones -- isn't going to make them want to be overly cooperative with us. I can understand the Bush Administration's reluctance to criticize the Saudis (a key ally in the Wurr on Turr) especially after recent comments by Stuart Levey infuriated them (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/09/london/main3478122.shtml).

[topless_mike]

Clinton: Saudi rape verdict 'an outrage' (http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/11/21/saudi.rape.victim/index.html)



While I agree with Hillary (I don't believe I just typed that) that this ruling should be protested/condemned/whatever, I wish she would realize that such a thing isn't that simple and could have severe repercussions. To criticize the Saudi legal system is to criticize their religion (Sharia/Islamic law is a literal interpretation of the Quran) and centuries of Arab tradition. I'm not saying it's right by any means but to bash the Saudis again -- especially over an internal matter with religious overtones -- isn't going to make them want to be overly cooperative with us. I can understand the Bush Administration's reluctance to criticize the Saudis (a key ally in the Wurr on Turr) especially after recent comments by Stuart Levey infuriated them (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/09/london/main3478122.shtml).

i agree with you 100%
this cunt should shut her trap.
their country, their laws, let them handle their own bidness.

and we wonder why the world either hates us or kisses our ass.

[TheMojoPin]

To criticize the Saudi legal system is to criticize their religion (Sharia/Islamic law is a literal interpretation of the Quran) and centuries of Arab tradition.

Well, the widespread rebirth of Sharia law and tradition is actually relatively new, mostly within the last few decades. It was not the primary influence for centuries prior to that. It's gone from being more of a fringe interpretation (given the overall numbers of the religion) to being widely propped up thanks to Saudi resources and influence over the last 30-40 years.

[A.J.]

True, and this is also the result of the alliance made between the ruling Al-Sa'ud family and the conservative clerics (Wahabbis). The clerics run social/religious policy and give legitimacy to the Al-Sa'ud as leaders for everything else.

[Knowledged_one]

True, and this is also the result of the alliance made between the ruling Al-Sa'ud family and the conservative clerics (Wahabbis). The clerics run social/religious policy and give legitimacy to the Al-Sa'ud as leaders for everything else.

did someone say wasabi now im starving

[Yerdaddy]

Clinton: Saudi rape verdict 'an outrage' (http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/11/21/saudi.rape.victim/index.html)



While I agree with Hillary (I don't believe I just typed that) that this ruling should be protested/condemned/whatever, I wish she would realize that such a thing isn't that simple and could have severe repercussions. To criticize the Saudi legal system is to criticize their religion (Sharia/Islamic law is a literal interpretation of the Quran) and centuries of Arab tradition. I'm not saying it's right by any means but to bash the Saudis again -- especially over an internal matter with religious overtones -- isn't going to make them want to be overly cooperative with us. I can understand the Bush Administration's reluctance to criticize the Saudis (a key ally in the Wurr on Turr) especially after recent comments by Stuart Levey infuriated them (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/09/london/main3478122.shtml).

I think it would be fine to criticize the Saudis for this, or to call on them to overturn the verdict against this girl. The Saudi Royals are nothing if not pragmatists, and they know this ruling against one girl makes them look like dicks at a time that they are making substantial efforts to reform their fundamentalist xenophobic society and their image at the same time. Their awful reputation makes it harder for any western democracy to do business with them and they are the Saudis best trading partners. They are in a 60 year power struggle with the Mullahs who share power with them, and they don't particularly want outside attention, but that doesn't mean they can't use the international embarrassment as leverage to keep implimenting it's reforms against the resistance of the Mullah's.

The other thing is that Shari'a law is open to interpretation in all of the dozen or so countries it's the/a basis of the legal system. Yemen changed it's laws on the death penalty for children to conform to international human rights conventions it signed to recieve aid money despite the Qur'an's explicit tolerance of the practice. They've been slowly relaxing restrictions on women when they see both aid money offered in return and the value of women in the workforce. Many of the prohibitions in Saudi Arabia don't exist in other Shari'a-based systems. Yemeni women have had the vote as long as men have, (since 1990), and have always been able to drive, (not necessarily the best idea, as the ninja costumes restrict periferal vision and the 3 or 4 times I was nearly hit by cars have always been by ninja drivers). The Qu'ran, and therefore Shari'a is an intrinsically flexible system. Despite the assumption by most Muslims that the Qur'an is perfect and unambiguous, there is no literal interpretation, if only because there are proclaimations that any Qur'anic law or tradition deemed to be harmful to the individual is to be abandoned. Such flexibility encourages progress based on evolving social norms and Islamic scholars and clerics are in a constant state of debate and reinterpretation of how Shari'a is to be implimented. Many of the clerics are quite progressive as well, and the struggle between them and the hard-liners throughout the Muslim world is, in fact, the real front line on the cultural civil war that we've redefined as the Wurr on Turr.

The Saudi royal family can claim it's none of our business, but they won't hold it against us if we criticize this decision, if only as a mechanism for disassociating both our government and the royal family from the whacked-out rulings of conservative judges. It's win-win, and it should be done. Actually, the royal family should intervene and make damn sure this girl is never punished. I suspect they'll do this eventually, but quietly when the hoopla dies down.

[As a side-note: If anyone remembers the story I wrote about the Yemeni girl who was sentenced to death for the murder of her husband when she was 14 - she was finally released from jail and is in the process of being set up with a new life in France. All ham to allah!]

[Crispy123]

All ham to allah!

That ham is getting stuffed down my throat, buddy!!!

[A.J.]

Yerdaddy, good points as always. And as you know, the examples with Yemen don't necessarily apply to Saudi Arabia because that is where the Two Holy Mosques are and the Islam/culture practiced there is considered "pure" or "correct".

I agree that reform is going to happen there but it's going to take much, much longer than in other places in the Arab. If King 'Abdallah were 20 years younger, it might happen faster. A lot of members of the Al-Sa'ud despise the conservative clerics and the Mutawaain (religious police) -- especially the Al-Faysal branch of the family and liberals like Prince Talal who has called for the formation of political parties.

But you're right -- this will probably be resolved quietly and behind the scenes.

[Yerdaddy]

Yerdaddy, good points as always. And as you know, the examples with Yemen don't necessarily apply to Saudi Arabia because that is where the Two Holy Mosques are and the Islam/culture practiced there is considered "pure" or "correct".

I agree that reform is going to happen there but it's going to take much, much longer than in other places in the Arab. If King 'Abdallah were 20 years younger, it might happen faster. A lot of members of the Al-Sa'ud despise the conservative clerics and the Mutawaain (religious police) -- especially the Al-Faysal branch of the family and liberals like Prince Talal who has called for the formation of political parties.

But you're right -- this will probably be resolved quietly and behind the scenes.

I agree completely that it is and will happen slowly in in Saudi, and that Abdallah could be better and would have been better earlier. But he is about as good as could be expected, I suppose. What I like is that he is a rational guy and the incentives are there to reform - ie. terrorist attacks on the Kingdom stemming from uber-conservatism gone haywire. I know the reforms of the Ministry's textbooks are moving forward in fits and starts - they reformed the textbooks only to find they did a half-assed job and then announced they were reforming again. I know they've got those expensive commercials telling Arabs that terrorism is bad with the graphic images of dead Arabs and kids asking what happened to their fathers, (then again there's a new report that Saudis are almost half the foreign fighters in Iraq). And the legal system will probably be extra slow simply because the Qu'ran is nothing if not a set of rules and the Ulema is going to fight to keep control over the Saudi legal system. (Bush once said he always travels with his Bible - I wonder if he broke Saudi law by taking it with him to Saudi Arabia?)

But I see no reson not to keep the pressure on, which we haven't done.

[thepaulo]

No one likes us-I don't know why
We may not be perfect, but heaven knows we try
But all around, even our old friends put us down
Let's drop the big one and see what happens

We give them money-but are they grateful?
No, they're spiteful and they're hateful
They don't respect us-so let's surprise them
We'll drop the big one and pulverize them

Asia's crowded and Europe's too old
Africa is far too hot
And Canada's too cold
And South America stole our name
Let's drop the big one
There'll be no one left to blame us

We'll save Australia
Don't wanna hurt no kangaroo
We'll build an All American amusement park there
They got surfin', too

Boom goes London and boom Paris
More room for you and more room for me
And every city the whole world round
Will just be another American town
Oh, how peaceful it will be
We'll set everybody free
You'll wear a Japanese kimono
And there'll be Italian shoes for me

They all hate us anyhow
So let's drop the big one now

[A.J.]

(Bush once said he always travels with his Bible - I wonder if he broke Saudi law by taking it with him to Saudi Arabia?)

He's never been there...and that's part of the problem.

Bibles and other non-Islamic religious materials and icons are verboten in the Kingdom.

[A.J.]

I know they've got those expensive commercials telling Arabs that terrorism is bad with the graphic images of dead Arabs and kids asking what happened to their fathers, (then again there's a new report that Saudis are almost half the foreign fighters in Iraq).

Another thing they do well: using ex-fighters to tell kids not to join the jihad (http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1&section=0&article=103900&d=23&m=11&y=2007). Kind of like the "Scared Straight" program for future terrorists.

[furie]

isn't the real lesson that she was only gonna get 90 lashes, but then she decided to get lippy.

feralboy is now my favorite poster

[Yerdaddy]

He's never been there...and that's part of the problem.

Bibles and other non-Islamic religious materials and icons are verboten in the Kingdom.

Was watching The Green Mile on Saudi satellite and when Patricia Clarkson is in bed dying I was wondering why I was suddenly looking at a pore-inspecting close-up of her and bits of the scene had been edited out. Then we figured out she must have been wearing a crucifix and the clerics tasked with censoring the movie were making sure that the damn thing never showed up on the screen - plot be damned! Still not as funny as Goodfellas where they had determined that "fuck" was OK, but the gerend version, "fucking", was unacceptable. It made it fun picturing the bearded imams trying to sort through a Joe Pesci scene, their silk jalabiyas soaked with angry sweat. Then there was the ten minutes of unscensored cursing when they left the movie running while they went off to pray. So Arab!

[Yerdaddy]

Another thing they do well: using ex-fighters to tell kids not to join the jihad (http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1&section=0&article=103900&d=23&m=11&y=2007). Kind of like the "Scared Straight" program for future terrorists.

“The Iraqis who were supposed to train me and prepare me to fight the occupation tried to kill me by making me an unwilling suicide bomber,” said Al-Shaie, who was tricked into driving a truck full of explosives.

Wonder if he'd have been happier to have joined the Russian army? (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6356707.stm)

[A.J.]

Was watching The Green Mile on Saudi satellite and when Patricia Clarkson is in bed dying I was wondering why I was suddenly looking at a pore-inspecting close-up of her and bits of the scene had been edited out. Then we figured out she must have been wearing a crucifix and the clerics tasked with censoring the movie were making sure that the damn thing never showed up on the screen - plot be damned! Still not as funny as Goodfellas where they had determined that "fuck" was OK, but the gerend version, "fucking", was unacceptable. It made it fun picturing the bearded imams trying to sort through a Joe Pesci scene, their silk jalabiyas soaked with angry sweat. Then there was the ten minutes of unscensored cursing when they left the movie running while they went off to pray. So Arab!

Yeah, some of the things they'd edit would be funny as you described above. Fortunately, we had Orbit Satellite TV and for the most part they'd air nudity and profanity. The funniest thing though is that Fashion TV would be entirely blocked out during Ramadan.

[Yerdaddy]

Rights Advocate Fights Back (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/28/AR2007112802264_pf.html)Attorney for Rape Victim Is Suing Saudi Justice Ministry

By Faiza Saleh Ambah
Washington Post Foreign Service
Thursday, November 29, 2007; A18

JIDDAH, Saudi Arabia, Nov. 28 -- A human rights lawyer who has defended a gang-rape victim sentenced to jail time and lashes said Wednesday that he is suing the Justice Ministry for revoking his license and for defaming his client by accusing her of having an affair.

Abdul-Rahman al-Lahem's license was suspended this month in the eastern town of Qatif, where his client was sentenced to six months in jail and 200 lashes on a morals charge after she and a male companion were kidnapped by seven men and raped.

The Justice Ministry said in a statement last week that the 20-year-old married woman had "confessed to having an affair with the man she was caught with." The statement also said she was not fully clothed when she and her male companion were seized at knifepoint.

"The Justice Ministry's accusing my client of adultery, without proof, is illegal. It is a crime, and they, better than anyone else, should know that," Lahem said. "I am suing them to protect my client's honor and because no one, including the Justice Ministry, should be above the law."

First of all, good for him and his giant freedom loving Saudi cajones!

Second, he's absolutely right that the Qu'ran is perfectly clear that it is haram to accuse someone of improper sex without 5 direct witnesses to the act. Even an illiterate Muslim knows this, and if the Ulema accused her without evidence then they're going to lose serious credibility with this case even amongst honest but fundamentalist Muslims. This lawyer should be considered a hero of Islam for filing this case against the courts.

The Saudi National Human Rights Association, a government-financed group, has requested an explanation for the revocation of Lahem's license by the Qatif court.

"We are questioning the legality of them taking his permit," said Saleh al-Khathlan, a member of the group. "We are hoping that this is not a reaction to his being so active in the field of human rights and his criticisms of the system, and that they're not trying to punish him for being so outspoken."

The victim, known only as the Girl of Qatif, her home town, was in a car with the male acquaintance, trying to retrieve old pictures of herself, when the attack occurred last year, Lahem said.

The woman and her companion were originally sentenced to 90 lashes for being alone in a car, illegal in this strictly gender-segregated country because they are not related. The rapists received sentences ranging from 10 months to five years.

Here's the down side: she may end up getting punished in the end because it's not just illegal for a woman to have sex out of wedlock in the kingdom but to be alone in a car with an unrelated man. While this case is being fought back and forth between the moderates and conservatives the conservatives are certain to insist on punishing her for that just to save face, and the moderates will probably have to cede that point in order to get her off of the more serious crime of having consentual sex. (In the Qu'ran both men and women have certain responsibilities to assure that premarital sex can't occur, but as men dominate Muslim socities - like they have in virtually all societies - the women's responsibilites are strictly enforced while men's are only minimally enforced.)

On a satellite television program Tuesday, Abdul-Mohsen al-Obaikan, a Justice Ministry consultant and former judge, said the woman was to blame for the sentences, which he described as lenient. "Nobody accepts that his wife cheats on him, and that she betrays her marital vows and sullies her marital bed," he said.

Obaikan said that the woman and her companion both confessed and that she was not sentenced to a harsher punishment for adultery because of the extenuating circumstances.

Midway through the show, the woman's husband called in, saying his wife was guilty only of trying to get her photos back. "I have forgiven her for that. I know why she was there. Why can't you forgive?" he asked.

The woman's husband, who also has not been identified, said in a telephone interview that his wife has tried to kill herself several times and is taking medication to treat depression brought on by the rape.

"We are keeping all the latest statements away from her because she is still traumatized by what happened. She just sits for hours, quiet, alone," he said.

Her husband is supporting her instead of abandoning her to protect his reputation - that's also good news.

The case has put a spotlight on the Saudi judicial system, which is run in accordance with the country's official Wahhabi school of thought, a strict form of Islam. The kingdom follows Islamic law, or sharia, and many sentences are left to the discretion of judges, a practice recently criticized by a growing number of Saudis.

The foreign minister, Prince Saud al-Faisal, speaking Tuesday from Annapolis, where he was attending a U.S.-hosted conference on Middle East peace, said the judiciary would review the case, the official Saudi Press Agency reported.

King Abdullah, who took the throne in 2005, has tried to introduce political and judicial reform and has allowed greater press freedoms. Discussion of rape cases in the news media is thought by some Saudis to have led to the opening of the country's first rape clinic in the capital, Riyadh, last year.

Signs of progress, all ham to Allah.

[A.J.]

I know I'm violating the rules of the forum by posting this entire article but the link might expire and I thought you should all read an excellent editorial on how it is to be a woman in Saudi Arabia.

Saudi Woman Is Always Guilty!
Dania Al-Ghalib, Al-Madinah

The Saudi woman is guilty. She is guilty of being born in a male-dominated society. Her fault is that she grows up in a society that stigmatizes her sex as a sin. She is held accountable because society believes she is underaged — even if she is in her 60s — and implements a guardianship system over her as if she were a second-rate citizen. It is very common for a Saudi woman — a widow or a divorcee — to have her young son as her guardian and she needs his written permission to carry out official paperwork. He is in control of her life and her destiny.

The Saudi woman can be blamed for living in a male-dominated society that opposes many rights for women despite the fact that the Prophet (peace be upon him) — the best of all humans — consulted a woman and listened to her advice. The Saudi woman is guilty of living in a society that confuses tradition with Islamic obligations and idolizes what it sees as the latter to the extent that when she wants to discuss or object, she is accused of rebellion. Her fault is that society considers her an item of her guardian’s property. He can do anything he desires with her without asking her opinion or even listening to her.

The Saudi woman is born undesired. Everybody wants a male child rather than a female one. This innocent creature is forcibly taught what is prohibited and shameful before even knowing how to speak. She is guilty if she remains silent and guilty if she talks. She is guilty if she is divorced and guilty if she cleaves to her husband and children when someone tries unjustifiably to destroy her marriage. Her only refuge is prison where she has the right to say no. She has lost all her rights and has fought for one that allows her to live only behind bars. Her sin is that she tried to protect her marriage and family. But traditions and customs challenged and destroyed her attempts.

The Saudi woman is guilty of being raped in darkness or in daylight because her society wants her locked in, producing legal children and never leaving her house unless she is dead and of course accompanied by a guardian. She is guilty when brutal beasts tear her body and soul apart, threatening her with weapons and defamation because society believes she subjected herself to them and she deserves what happens to her.

She is guilty because society prohibits her from driving and forces her to live at the mercy of a foreign driver. He might rape her one day or make money by allowing others to rape her, and then she will be the one who is blamed for having put herself in such position and went out with a driver without her legal guardian.

The Saudi woman is guilty because she is part of her guardian’s property even when he is a criminal, serving time in jail and he marries her off to his colleague in prison who is awaiting execution. Society is aware of this and apparently sees no harm in such. In fact, the community blessed this marriage and arranged for them to be legally alone together. And the woman’s fault is that she is the daughter of a criminal.

The Saudi woman is guilty of being haunted by spinsterhood and not accepting “misyar” and all other types of male-invented marriages. She is also guilty if she accepts being abandoned by her husband when he feels tired and bored with her and wants a new wife. She is guilty if she objects to anything and her legal guardian beats her until he breaks her ribs or permanently disfigures her. His right is to beat her and make her obey and listen, even if that means deforming her physical features as a woman and taking away her beauty.

She is guilty when others confiscate her property or real estate by impersonating her, and her greatest sin is that her identity stems from her guardian. The Saudi woman is always guilty and anyone who thinks of dealing with her humanely is a criminal (http://www.arabnews.com/?page=13&section=0&article=104942&d=29&m=12&y=2007&pix=kingdom.jpg&category=Local%20Press).

[Yerdaddy]

:nono:

[Yerdaddy]

Just kidding!

:clap:

[underdog]

Religious police in Saudi Arabia arrest mother for sitting with a man in Starbucks (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article3321637.ece)

“If I want to make a difference I have to stick around. If I leave they win. I can't just surrender to the terrorist acts of these people,” said Yara"

I like how she's comparing terrorism with her getting arrested for voluntarily being in a country with well-known extreme Islamic laws.

[high fly]

Clinton: Saudi rape verdict 'an outrage' (http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/11/21/saudi.rape.victim/index.html)



....To criticize the Saudi legal system is to criticize their religion (Sharia/Islamic law is a literal interpretation of the Quran) and centuries of Arab tradition....


Let's not forget that we set up a government in Iraq based on the Ko-ran.
And interpretation of Iraqi law is left up to mullahs trained in Iran.....

[high fly]

I know I'm violating the rules of the forum by posting this entire article but the link might expire and I thought you should all read an excellent editorial on how it is to be a woman in Saudi Arabia.

Thanks anyway.
It is interesting and informative.

Remember a few years back when there was a fire at a girls school and they let them burn because they couldn't cover them up or something in a possible recue?

These are awful, awful people and they have a lot more influence in our country than they should have.

This is all the more reason why we need to have a crash program to get energy independent and be rid these vile creatures..........

[scottinnj]

These stories, along with the hundreds of others that we never hear of, is one reason why I support Obama. Like a lot of you guys know, global warming is not up there on my "things to be concerned about" list. But I want to break ties with these animals so bad and the only way to do it is to go alternative. And Obama seems to be the only candidate with a determination to do this.

Getting away from foreign oil makes us more secure.

Getting away from foreign oil takes our money from them, so that we'll never again have to tolerate this sort of behavior.

[A.J.]

Religious police in Saudi Arabia arrest mother for sitting with a man in Starbucks (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article3321637.ece)

“If I want to make a difference I have to stick around. If I leave they win. I can't just surrender to the terrorist acts of these people,” said Yara"

I like how she's comparing terrorism with her getting arrested for voluntarily being in a country with well-known extreme Islamic laws.

Separation of church and state -- the greatest invention ever. Somewhere along the lines the GOP forgot that.

Imagine a religious police force in this country enforcing the Bible. For example, not keeping holy on the Sabbath. Or being stoned to death for comitting adultery. That'll give you an idea of what living in Saudi Arabia is like.

[high fly]

I have heard that in Saudi Arabia in places like Starbucks they have partitions between the side for males and the one for females.

I vaguely recall something about Laura Bush going over there and sticking up for the women, saying they should be allowed to drive.

I hope like hell there is a recording of Abdullah telling Bush on the phone he needs to discipline his woman........

[scottinnj]

Separation of church and state -- the greatest invention ever. Somewhere along the lines the GOP forgot that.

Imagine a religious police force in this country enforcing the Bible. For example, not keeping holy on the Sabbath. Or being stoned to death for comitting adultery. That'll give you an idea of what living in Saudi Arabia is like.


How about a taste, for all of you people living in Blue Law states and the regs here in NJ about sports gambling and such.

I have heard that in Saudi Arabia in places like Starbucks they have partitions between the side for males and the one for females.

I vaguely recall something about Laura Bush going over there and sticking up for the women, saying they should be allowed to drive.


I hope like hell there is a recording of Abdullah telling Bush on the phone he needs to discipline his woman........



I remember going into convenience stores to buy a soda or batteries or what not, and the store clerk would tell the women shoppers to get out of the store while me and my freinds were in it.

[high fly]

This is why we can't just plug Jeffersonian democracy into Iraq.

This is a feudal society which never went through the Enlightenment or the Age of Reason and they have centuries of civilizing to catch up to.

They are still stuck in the Dark Ages....

[A.J.]

I have heard that in Saudi Arabia in places like Starbucks they have partitions between the side for males and the one for females.

I vaguely recall something about Laura Bush going over there and sticking up for the women, saying they should be allowed to drive.

I hope like hell there is a recording of Abdullah telling Bush on the phone he needs to discipline his woman........

Yep. There's the "singles section" for men and the "family section" for men and their wives and children. Picture a countertop at a McDonald's with a partition down the middle.

And sometimes in the family section they have blinds they can draw to further cover themselves from others. Of course, Mutawaiin can go in to either section to check for violators. I myself accidentally walked into one of the malls via the family entrance. I had to walk all the way around the other side just to end up going into the exact same place. The goal is to avoid single boys and girls/men and women from inetracting with each other. They don't date and get married over there -- their families arrange marriages. Age differences don't matter. I've seen 50 or 60 year old men marrying teens. Women are breeding stock.

That's the deal with why women can't drive over there. Women are not allowed out with some male guardian (a husband or male relative) so as to prevent them from engaging in "improper behavior". I've either seen the argument made that men will intentionally crash into women's cars in order to talk to them. I'm not kidding about that.

[topless_mike]

i'd love to see a woman's movement occur over there.
let them dish it out with the men.

but hey, its their country. let them rule it as they please.

[scottinnj]

....that men will intentionally crash into women's cars in order to talk to them. I'm not kidding about that.



Hey Baby, can I sign your cast when you get out of the hospital?:lol:

[A.J.]

Valentine's Day: Saudi Style.

Saudi Arabia has asked florists and gift shops to remove all red items until after Valentine's Day, calling the celebration of such a holiday a sin (http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/02/12/saudi.valentine/index.html)

[A.J.]

Why you'll never see a Hot Chick Pic Thread in Saudi Arabia: "Saudi clerics want women banned from TV, media" (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/saudireligionwomenrightsmedia;_ylt=AgcC4TvoU61SMrr VQHRXO43Zn414)

[topless_mike]

i wanted to make a comment about that.

its coming. the entire nation's women will one day stand up and say fuck you and cause a massive civil war in the country. maybe not fuck you and maybe not a civil war, but they will finally have had enough and it will cause the country to collapse, albeit temporarily.

good for them.

[Thebazile78]

i wanted to make a comment about that.

its coming. the entire nation's women will one day stand up and say fuck you and cause a massive civil war in the country. maybe not fuck you and maybe not a civil war, but they will finally have had enough and it will cause the country to collapse, albeit temporarily.

good for them.

Maybe they will, maybe they won't. It's more than a deeply-ingrained cultural or religious thing. It's more than a political thing. It's a power and fear thing using religion and politics as reasons to be especially harsh. (Back to the original story of 200 lashes for a rape VICTIM.)

The American women who started the Women's Rights movement with the Seneca Falls Convention seem to have had opportunities and encouragement that a lot of the women who could take similar steps in these nations do not have. True, they faced a lot of the same sort of opposition, often on religious grounds, from American men, but I don't know if the environment is exactly primed for this kind of revolution. It's kind of like trying to make a battered wife leave her husband for her own good after he's sent flowers to the hospital and promises to change.

[topless_mike]

Maybe they will, maybe they won't. It's more than a deeply-ingrained cultural or religious thing. It's more than a political thing. It's a power and fear thing using religion and politics as reasons to be especially harsh. (Back to the original story of 200 lashes for a rape VICTIM.)

The American women who started the Women's Rights movement with the Seneca Falls Convention seem to have had opportunities and encouragement that a lot of the women who could take similar steps in these nations do not have. True, they faced a lot of the same sort of opposition, often on religious grounds, from American men, but I don't know if the environment is exactly primed for this kind of revolution. It's kind of like trying to make a battered wife leave her husband for her own good after he's sent flowers to the hospital and promises to change.

cage a dog long enough and one of two things will happen
a) you kill its soul and the dog along with it
b) dog finally has enough and chews his way out.

these women have been caged up long enough.

VIVA LA WOMENS MOVEMENT

[Judge Smails]

Why you'll never see a Hot Chick Pic Thread in Saudi Arabia

Oh yeah? Well they can't stop me. Check out the fucking hottie - second from the right. (I apologize to the mods if this is considered NSFW)

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a300/tescosuicide/ALa2/ALa3/CaptionIt_Burkas.jpg

[Jeffdc5]

serves the bitch right keep your mouth shut hole!! shock and jock shock and jock shock and jock shock and jock

[Jujubees2]

Oh yeah? Well they can't stop me. Check out the fucking hottie - second from the right. (I apologize to the mods if this is considered NSFW)

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a300/tescosuicide/ALa2/ALa3/CaptionIt_Burkas.jpg

The guy taking the picture will be batching to it all night!

[Thebazile78]

cage a dog long enough and one of two things will happen
a) you kill its soul and the dog along with it
b) dog finally has enough and chews his way out.

these women have been caged up long enough.

VIVA LA WOMENS MOVEMENT

It's back to opportunity and encouragement.

If you don't know it's unacceptable behavior, you're not going to change.

[Jujubees2]

The Monarch Who Declared His Own Revolution (http://www.newsweek.com/id/190350)

Interesting read on the current Saudi king.

"In the past few weeks, however, things have suddenly accelerated as the king has moved to show the ultraconservative Saudi religious establishment quite literally who's boss. He sacked the head of the feared religious police and the minister of justice, appointed Nora al-Fayez as deputy education minister, making her the highest-ranking female official in the country's history, and moved to equalize the education of women and men under the direction of a favored son-in-law who has been preparing for years to modernize the nation's school system."

"Women are still forbidden to drive. They're required to keep their bodies covered (though they may expose their face if they like), and their choices in every aspect of life, personal and professional, are more limited than those of men. Saudi law treats women, at best, as second-class citizens. The fiery Princess Adelah, playing an ever more assertive role, is an inspiration to some."

[Thebazile78]

The Monarch Who Declared His Own Revolution (http://www.newsweek.com/id/190350)

Interesting read on the current Saudi king.

"In the past few weeks, however, things have suddenly accelerated as the king has moved to show the ultraconservative Saudi religious establishment quite literally who's boss. He sacked the head of the feared religious police and the minister of justice, appointed Nora al-Fayez as deputy education minister, making her the highest-ranking female official in the country's history, and moved to equalize the education of women and men under the direction of a favored son-in-law who has been preparing for years to modernize the nation's school system."

"Women are still forbidden to drive. They're required to keep their bodies covered (though they may expose their face if they like), and their choices in every aspect of life, personal and professional, are more limited than those of men. Saudi law treats women, at best, as second-class citizens. The fiery Princess Adelah, playing an ever more assertive role, is an inspiration to some."

But that's in Saudi Arabia. Aren't they generally more "liberal" when compared to other countries in the Muslim world?

[topless_mike]

The guy taking the picture will be batching to it all night!

he looks like he's taking a dump...

[topless_mike]

It's back to opportunity and encouragement.

If you don't know it's unacceptable behavior, you're not going to change.

i agree.

i like agreeing with liz. makes me feel smarter.

[dino_electropolis]

I just wanna thank whoever it was that resurrected this thread.


Something so sexy about the title......

[TheMojoPin]

But that's in Saudi Arabia. Aren't they generally more "liberal" when compared to other countries in the Muslim world?

No. Quite the opposite. Saudia Arabia is the source of the Wahhabist-bent strain of Islam and the religious texts they produce end up supplying most of the Muslim community in Africa, the Middle East and Asia.

[A.J.]

The Monarch Who Declared His Own Revolution (http://www.newsweek.com/id/190350)

Interesting read on the current Saudi king.

"In the past few weeks, however, things have suddenly accelerated as the king has moved to show the ultraconservative Saudi religious establishment quite literally who's boss. He sacked the head of the feared religious police and the minister of justice, appointed Nora al-Fayez as deputy education minister, making her the highest-ranking female official in the country's history, and moved to equalize the education of women and men under the direction of a favored son-in-law who has been preparing for years to modernize the nation's school system."

"Women are still forbidden to drive. They're required to keep their bodies covered (though they may expose their face if they like), and their choices in every aspect of life, personal and professional, are more limited than those of men. Saudi law treats women, at best, as second-class citizens. The fiery Princess Adelah, playing an ever more assertive role, is an inspiration to some."

But that's in Saudi Arabia. Aren't they generally more "liberal" when compared to other countries in the Muslim world?

No. Quite the opposite. Saudia Arabia is the source of the Wahhabist-bent strain of Islam and the religious texts they produce end up supplying most of the Muslim community in Afria, the Middle East and Asia.

Good, accurate article.

If King 'Abdallah was 20 years younger, real change might take place in Saudi Arabia. He's not going have many more years ahead of him, hence his trying to push through these reforms so "fast". The obstacle of course is the religious establishment which is extremely powerful.

Mojo's right -- Saudi Arabia is the most conservative of the countries as it is the birthplace of Islam and home to the Two Holy Mosques. The money generated by oil allows them to print and distribute Qurans all over the world (http://www.qurancomplex.com/Default.asp?l=eng)in damn near every language. Kuwait would be a close second. Bahrain, Qatar and the UAE are the more Gulf liberal countries.

[TripleSkeet]

Getting away from foreign oil takes our money from them, so that we'll never again have to tolerate this sort of behavior.

We dont tolerate it now. Like it or not, agree with it or not, another countries laws and traditions are none of our business. Its not like we allow that type of shit over here.

i wanted to make a comment about that.

its coming. the entire nation's women will one day stand up and say fuck you and cause a massive civil war in the country. maybe not fuck you and maybe not a civil war, but they will finally have had enough and it will cause the country to collapse, albeit temporarily.

good for them.

I dont think its coming as soon as you think. I dont see women standing up and saying "fuck you" when if they do men are allowed to whip them, stone them, or cut their heads off. Honestly, if men were allowed to do that over here do you really think the womens lib movement wouldve kept fighting? I dont.

[Thebazile78]

No. Quite the opposite. Saudia Arabia is the source of the Wahhabist-bent strain of Islam and the religious texts they produce end up supplying most of the Muslim community in Afria, the Middle East and Asia.

I'm the first to admit that I can find it on the map, but haven't paid close attention to the subtle differences among the various countries. Thanks for clarifying.

...


I dont think its coming as soon as you think. I dont see women standing up and saying "fuck you" when if they do men are allowed to whip them, stone them, or cut their heads off. Honestly, if men were allowed to do that over here do you really think the womens lib movement wouldve kept fighting? I dont.

But men pretty much WERE allowed to do shit like that over here when the Seneca Falls Convention was held (http://www.npg.si.edu/col/seneca/senfalls1.htm). OK, not necessarily cut heads off, but whipping and other forms of corporal punishment were perfectly legal if the man doing it was the woman's husband or father.

Most of what we now define as "spousal abuse" today was perfectly acceptable, and socially, politically and religiously reinforced as acceptable, for hundreds of years.

HOWEVER, women like Lucretia Mott (http://womenshistory.about.com/od/suffragepre1848/p/lucretia_mott.htm), Susan B. Anthony (http://www.history.rochester.edu/class/sba/bio.html) and Elilzabeth Cady-Stanton (http://womenshistory.about.com/od/stantonelizabeth/a/stanton.htm) had OPPORTUNITY and ENCOURAGEMENT from MEN, often fathers and husbands, but sometimes prominent gentlemen ... what a women's movement would need in the Muslim world is not only a willingness among educated women (which, depending on the nation, can be a very rare find) but also a support and rather radical stand on the part of PROMINENT MEN, including clerics as well as rulers, to gain any sort of foothold. I don't know that the men have the balls or the inclination to support anything this radical, but the seeds can be sown.

[TripleSkeet]

I'm the first to admit that I can find it on the map, but haven't paid close attention to the subtle differences among the various countries. Thanks for clarifying.



But men pretty much WERE allowed to do shit like that over here when the Seneca Falls Convention was held (http://www.npg.si.edu/col/seneca/senfalls1.htm). OK, not necessarily cut heads off, but whipping and other forms of corporal punishment were perfectly legal if the man doing it was the woman's husband or father.

Most of what we now define as "spousal abuse" today was perfectly acceptable, and socially, politically and religiously reinforced as acceptable, for hundreds of years.

HOWEVER, women like Lucretia Mott (http://womenshistory.about.com/od/suffragepre1848/p/lucretia_mott.htm), Susan B. Anthony (http://www.history.rochester.edu/class/sba/bio.html) and Elilzabeth Cady-Stanton (http://womenshistory.about.com/od/stantonelizabeth/a/stanton.htm) had OPPORTUNITY and ENCOURAGEMENT from MEN, often fathers and husbands, but sometimes prominent gentlemen ... what a women's movement would need in the Muslim world is not only a willingness among educated women (which, depending on the nation, can be a very rare find) but also a support and rather radical stand on the part of PROMINENT MEN, including clerics as well as rulers, to gain any sort of foothold. I don't know that the men have the balls or the inclination to support anything this radical, but the seeds can be sown.

Exactly. Without men backing it up a womens movement has no chance. They had that here, do they really have that over there?

[Thebazile78]

Exactly. Without men backing it up a womens movement has no chance. They had that here, do they really have that over there?

It depends.

Higher-class women might have more opportunity, but if their menfolk still treat them like babies, it's not going to mean shit.

Also, a lot of the early suffragettes were beaten, bullied, raped and otherwise abused while arrested for something as simple as PICKETING for the right to vote in the US.

[topless_mike]

Exactly. Without men backing it up a womens movement has no chance. They had that here, do they really have that over there?

no, because im sure anyone man that pushes for women's "freedom" (something closely resembling the liberties here) would be considered loyal to the evil westerners and beheaded.
thats just how they do there.

[TheMojoPin]

no, because im sure anyone man that pushes for women's "freedom" (something closely resembling the liberties here) would be considered loyal to the evil westerners and beheaded.
thats just how they do there.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/91/231367949_c4b68b6c5b.jpg?v=0

[topless_mike]

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/91/231367949_c4b68b6c5b.jpg?v=0

i was really starting to understand and like you, too.

[Thebazile78]

no, because im sure anyone man that pushes for women's "freedom" (something closely resembling the liberties here) would be considered loyal to the evil westerners and beheaded.
thats just how they do there.

They have a chance, but it'll take a lot more change before they can even picket.

And it'll take generations of women of privilege AND men in power before anything happens; just look at our own history:

Mary Wollstonecraft Godwin (Mary Shelley's mother) published A Vindication of the Rights of Women in 1792.
The Seneca Falls Convention was held in the summer of 1848.
The 19th Amendment granting women's suffrage was ratified in the summer of 1920.
Women entered the workforce in a large-scale way during WWII (US involvement 1941-1945) ... but were encouraged to return to hearth and home as soldiers returned from deployments.
Title IX, which guaranteed equal participation in programs receiving federal aid (like public schools), was not passed until 1972.
And VMI only went coed in 1997.

Those are some "landmark" items in the struggle in the Western world (focusing on the USA)

We've come a long way, but we still have a long road ahead of us if we want to talk about "equality" ... and, with the recession, a lot of these issues are coming to the forefront as companies cut things like paid maternity leave, child-care subsidies and "mothers' rooms", as well as women who may have "opted out" and now need to re-enter the workforce. We're still struggling with a lot of things that are STILL hot-button issues in this country; I can't imagine how much more "hot" these topics would be in Muslim countries!

[Misteriosa]

since this is about saudi arabia...

8 year old girl married off to a 47 y/o man to cover family debts...

<script src="http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/.element/js/2.0/video/evp/module.js?loc=dom&vid=/video/world/2009/03/25/dcl.jamjoon.saudi.young.bride.cnn" type="text/javascript"></script><noscript>Embedded video from <a href="http://www.cnn.com/video">CNN Video</a></noscript>

[Contra]

She will love life, and the raping I'm sure.

[ToiletCrusher]

Seems like a fitting punishment.

[A.J.]

since this is about saudi arabia...

8 year old girl married off to a 47 y/o man to cover family debts...

<script src="http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/.element/js/2.0/video/evp/module.js?loc=dom&vid=/video/world/2009/03/25/dcl.jamjoon.saudi.young.bride.cnn" type="text/javascript"></script><noscript>Embedded video from <a href="http://www.cnn.com/video">CNN Video</a></noscript>

Sadly, this is not uncommon over there.

[Thebazile78]

Sadly, this is not uncommon over there.

Equally sadly, it's only part of the problem.

It doesn't make it any less repugnant to someone who doesn't have that kind of cultural experience ... and it kinda feels like I'm watching that Afghan film Osama about a young girl who disguises herself as a boy so that she can continue to go to school after the Taliban come to power.