Bhutto....DEAD

[mendyweiss]

Assassinated this morning.

[epo]

Link to story here. (http://www.abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=4055506&page=1)

[Death Metal Moe]

That's really fucked up and sad to hear.

I don't know much about the political climate there, but she's a name I remember from back in my youth and I was hoping she could bring about some sort of positive change in that country.

[foodcourtdruide]

How awful, I was shocked this morning when I heard this.

[King Hippos Bandaid]

fucking savages

RIP

[Soupy_Dreck]

this is bad news...she's now a martyr which will probably lead to more unrest over there

[Earlshog]

Unfortunately this was inevitable. They had a story on BBC about her a couple weeks ago and I remember commenting to my girl that she was not going to live to see that election.

She was a very brave women to leave a safe comfortable existence to give her life to for fight something she believed in.

[Doctor Z]

A figure of peace and progress KILLED in the MIDDLE EAST? What a shock.

[Zorro]

Another ten years and this shit will be as common here as it is in Pakistan

[A.J.]

A figure of peace and progress KILLED in the MIDDLE EAST? What a shock.

Pakistan is in South Asia -- not the Middle East.

[EddieMoscone]

Another ten years and this shit will be as common here as it is in Pakistan

You don't happen to work for Fox News, do you?

[Marc with a c]

i thought this was going to be about hottub

[pennington]

That's it, kill the reformer. That way the military that currently runs the country will have an excuse to come down on you even harder. Good plan.

R.I.P. As was stated previously, she could have lead a life of ease but chose to get back into politics.

[EliSnow]

Another ten years and this shit will be as common here as it is in Pakistan

That's got to be one of the most ridiculuous and unfounded things I've ever read.

[Zorro]

You don't happen to work for Fox News, do you?

Why is this something you guys at Fox are pushing?

[RAAMONE]

That's got to be one of the most ridiculuous and unfounded things I've ever read.

yes...thats just like saying journeyman isnt a ripoff of quantum leap...completly ridiculuous

[Zorro]

That's got to be one of the most ridiculuous and unfounded things I've ever read.

You've got bombs going off all over the world. It's kind of naive in a cute "we're America" sort of way to assume it won't be happening here.

[Dirtybird12]

This was one of my top 10 predictions for 08.

a month or so ago I was watching a really interesting special on CNN about her - hosted by cnn's christiane amanpour.

Im not shocked. Thats why I predicted her assassination the following day after her special aired. Did anyone NOT see this coming?

[ralphbxny]

very sad!

Tell Gail n Jimy we said sup!

[RAAMONE]

This was one of my top 10 predictions for 08.

a month or so ago I was watching a really interesting special on CNN about her - hosted by cnn's christiane amanpour.

Im not shocked. Thats why I predicted her assassination the following day after her special aired. Did anyone NOT see this coming?

the other 9? you know so if they happen and you say you predicted it we can believe you...

[Yerdaddy]

Uh... I know she's dead and all, but I don't know where you guys are getting the idea that she was a sybol of peace or a reformer or anything like that. She was the first female leader of a Muslim country, but she was more of a shrewd political player and a corrupt and dictatorial prime minister. She, and Nawaz Sharif - the other former PM who recently returned to run for the job again - were shitty leaders. That's part of the tradgedy of Pakistan - that some of their military dictators, including Musharraf, have actually been better for the country than their democratically elected civilians.

[KC2OSO]

This was one of my top 10 predictions for 08.

a month or so ago I was watching a really interesting special on CNN about her - hosted by cnn's christiane amanpour.

Im not shocked. Thats why I predicted her assassination the following day after her special aired. Did anyone NOT see this coming?

Agree. Nah, just how/when she would be killed. This is really bad. She was a brave lady.

[Zorro]

Uh... I know she's dead and all, but I don't know where you guys are getting the idea that she was a sybol of peace or a reformer or anything like that. She was the first female leader of a Muslim country, but she was more of a shrewd political player and a corrupt and dictatorial prime minister. She, and Nawaz Sharif - the other former PM who recently returned to run for the job again - were shitty leaders. That's part of the tradgedy of Pakistan - that some of their military dictators, including Musharraf, have actually been better for the country than their democratically elected civilians.

Please do not cloud our TV images with the truth.

[Sarge]

You knew this was going to happen, I'm surprised they let her live this long. The media took to her right away, and that made the government look bad, not that they're any good.

[Earlshog]

Uh... I know she's dead and all, but I don't know where you guys are getting the idea that she was a sybol of peace or a reformer or anything like that. She was the first female leader of a Muslim country, but she was more of a shrewd political player and a corrupt and dictatorial prime minister. She, and Nawaz Sharif - the other former PM who recently returned to run for the job again - were shitty leaders. That's part of the tradgedy of Pakistan - that some of their military dictators, including Musharraf, have actually been better for the country than their democratically elected civilians.


To say she was a poor leader with a checkered past is putting it mildly.

I didn't get the whole peace thing, off the top of my head she did support the Taliban. (Granted who ever was in charge was in a tough spot not wanting enemies on both your East and West borders).

However I think the sentiment here ( at least mine is) is it is sad when someone is cut down in this fashion, especially someone who sacrifices their own well being to benefit others.

[Dirtybird12]

the other 9? you know so if they happen and you say you predicted it we can believe you...


I can only reveal them once they come true. HA!

Actually, I also predicted that Musharraf would be killed before March of 08.

an American major label recording artis will be killed or drop dead on stage somewhere between April - June of 08. (outside of the US)

Like magic, Bin Ladin will be captured or killed weeks before the next US president is elected.

[pennington]

A reformer over there seems to be someone who isn't a military dictator and is more friendly to the West. Everything is relative, I guess.

I heard on an ABC radio report that she had repeatedly asked the government for more professional security with no response. Now conspiracy theories can begin.

[A.J.]

I heard on an ABC radio report that she had repeatedly asked the government for more professional security with no response. Now conspiracy theories can begin.

She should have called Blackwater.

[Furtherman]

Not even bullet-proof windows? I wouldn't have left the house.

[furie]

Pakistan's going to tear itself apart now.

[EliSnow]

You've got bombs going off all over the world. It's kind of naive in a cute "we're America" sort of way to assume it won't be happening here.

It's not being naive. There has been bombs going off, violence all over the world, and leaders killed for a very long time.

But we've never experienced that here, because of our system, amongst other things. Yes, we've had some of our leaders killed, but it has been rare, and you don't usually see it at election time.

Why would you think it would happen here in 10 years? You have to have a reason other than well, it's happens elsewhere. That's why I said your statement was unfounded because you just say it's going to happen.

[DiabloSammich]

It's not being naive. There has been bombs going off, violence all over the world, and leaders killed for a very long time.

But we've never experienced that here, because of our system, amongst other things. Yes, we've had some of our leaders killed, but it has been rare, and you don't usually see it at election time.

Why would you think it would happen here in 10 years? You have to have a reason other than well, it's happens elsewhere. That's why I said your statement was unfounded because you just say it's going to happen.



Global politics FACE!!!

[Dirtybird12]

Im shocked there have been ZERO suicide bombers in America.
The kind that strap a bomb to their body and walk into a cafe...

I think its only a matter of time before THAT starts happening.

[EliSnow]

Im shocked there have been ZERO suicide bombers in America.
The kind that strap a bomb to their body and walk into a cafe...

I think its only a matter of time before THAT starts happening.

I think it may happen eventually, but not with the regularity that you see in other countries. One problem as I see it, is the lack of supply and resources in Ameria as compared to say Palestine or Iraq. Due to the instabilities, poverty, violence, etc. there, you have almost a large supply of wiling "martyrs" and people to support such bombers.

Here, I think, any bombers for the most part would be people traveling over here with the express intention to carry out such activities. There's not as many people already living here that have the willingness to carry out such acts. There are some, and there's a good chance it will happen. But unless we have some type of large scale instability here, I don't think it's going to be as common.

[RAAMONE]

Im shocked there have been ZERO suicide bombers in America.
The kind that strap a bomb to their body and walk into a cafe...

I think its only a matter of time before THAT starts happening.

we are a bunch of pussy's...seriously though...those people are fucking horrible individulas...but they will do anything for their stupid cause...

[DiabloSammich]

we are a bunch of pussy's...seriously though...those people are fucking horrible individulas...but they will do anything for their stupid cause...


I don't even think it's an issue of pussification. It's just very rare to find anyone passionate enough about anything that they are willing to place that above their own life, especially if it causes harm to others.

[EliSnow]

I don't even think it's an issue of pussification. It's just very rare to find anyone passionate enough about anything that they are willing to place that above their own life, especially if it causes harm to others.

Exactly. And you only see that type of passion, generally, for people who experience, a lot of violence, oppression, poverty or things of that nature. There's not that type of impetus affecting individuals in the United States right now.

[Earlshog]

Exactly. And you only see that type of passion, generally, for people who experience, a lot of violence, oppression, poverty or things of that nature. There's not that type of impetus affecting individuals in the United States right now.


There is plenty of vilolence, oppression and poverty in the US, they're just not religious fanatics.

[Furtherman]

We have suicide shooters.

[EliSnow]

There is plenty of vilolence, oppression and poverty in the US, they're just not religious fanatics.

Not at the level that there is in other countries. For instance, poverty, how many people are too poor here to lack a television? The homeless for sure, but how many others?

With regard to violence, you're not seeing the same level of violence, that Iraq has seen in the last five years.

There are not people here who feel as oppressed as the Palestinians do.

Now, I'm not saying that these bombers are justified in what they do, because they are not. But there are socio-political things that increase the level of passion that Diablo referenced, and we don't have the same levels here.

[DiabloSammich]

We have suicide shooters.



True, and usually the common theme for their reasoning, at least lately, is fame or infamy. There's not alot of suidice shooters anymore that commit their act based on a popular political or religious standpoint. Most of them are nutballs and are viewed as such. Not martyrs.

[Dougie Brootal]

eli is smart. like, way smarter than me. thats all.

[Zorro]

Not at the level that there is in other countries. For instance, poverty, how many people are too poor here to lack a television? The homeless for sure, but how many others?

With regard to violence, you're not seeing the same level of violence, that Iraq has seen in the last five years.

There are not people here who feel as oppressed as the Palestinians do.

Now, I'm not saying that these bombers are justified in what they do, because they are not. But there are socio-political things that increase the level of passion that Diablo referenced, and we don't have the same levels here.

Seeing this as a poor versus wealthy problem turns a blind eye to the reality that this is a radical movement that knows no economic boundary. Osama is a multi-millionaire...the 9/11 hijackers were all well educated. The recent Scottish bombers were medical doctors. The terrorists it seems are just as likely to be wealthy and educated as they are poor and untrained. We've had normal American kids join the jihad and no one can argue that the movement is growing. So, it just seems likely that sooner or later we'll see the kind of stuff we saw in Pakistan today happen here.

[RAAMONE]

i thought this was going to be about hottub

nobody gave you credit...thought that was funny

[EliSnow]

Seeing this as a poor versus wealthy problem turns a blind eye to the reality that this is a radical movement that knows no economic boundary. Osama is a multi-millionaire...the 9/11 hijackers were all well educated. The recent Scottish bombers were medical doctors. The terrorists it seems are just as likely to be wealthy and educated as they are poor and untrained. We've had normal American kids join the jihad and no one can argue that the movement is growing. So, it just seems likely that sooner or later we'll see the kind of stuff we saw in Pakistan today happen here.

I wasn't just talking about poverty. There are other socio-political issues involved, although it's a big one. Also, yes, you can find well educated, wealthy religious zealots. But generally, if you want to find countries where suicide bombers or similar violence is common, you going to see countries with huge instabilities, poverty and violence.

Pakistan is one such countery. With Pakistan, when looking at what happened there, you have to take into account that you're dealing with a country that has a huge religious zealot popluation. We don't have the same percentages.

Moreover, you're dealing with a country where certain portions of the country cannot be controlled by the central government in any fashion. Instead, they're controlled by warlords and groups that help Taliban and Al Qeada.

You have a central government whose leader took control as part of a military coup. He refused to listen to their Supreme Court, suspended the consitution, shut down television channels, and then put his own people on the supreme court.

Pakistan, like other countries where you see suicide bombers or this type of bombers, differ in many ways from ours. And those differences are why the type of thing we saw today, will not become common here in 10 years, unless there is a huge event causing the same level of instability.

Also with regard to American kids "joining the jihad," really what do you think the percentage is that is doing so? The Muslim community in the US is no more than 5% and probably less. So even if every Muslim was a zealot (which they are not -- they are a minority here), you're not seeing more than a 5% movement amongst kids. However, in the countries we're talking about, the percentages are probably closer to 50% to 80%. And that number is not going to grow to such amounts because we don't have the same instabilties, poverty, and violence that other countries do.

Yerdaddy can probably provide more insight on this type of thing than I.

[Earlshog]

Not at the level that there is in other countries. For instance, poverty, how many people are too poor here to lack a television? The homeless for sure, but how many others?

With regard to violence, you're not seeing the same level of violence, that Iraq has seen in the last five years.

There are not people here who feel as oppressed as the Palestinians do.

Now, I'm not saying that these bombers are justified in what they do, because they are not. But there are socio-political things that increase the level of passion that Diablo referenced, and we don't have the same levels here.

I have been to Pakistan a few times ( Just to give you a little background I work in the clothing industry so if cheap labor is to be had I have been there.) With that said I have witnessed extreme poverty in many places overseas as well as in our own country.

In my experience the passion you speak of while derived from poverty, oppression, violence, etc, is driven by religious fanaticism.

[EliSnow]

I have been to Pakistan a few times ( Just to give you a little background I work in the clothing industry so if cheap labor is to be had I have been there.) With that said I have witnessed extreme poverty in many places overseas as well as in our own country.

In my experience the passion you speak of while derived from poverty, oppression, violence, etc, is driven by religious fanaticism.

Yes, but without the poverty, oppression, and violence, the religious fanaticism either won't take hold, or won't be as strong as it would be in an area without such elements. Religious fanaticism gives an outlet for feelings of hatred, self-pity, etc. that poverty, oppression, violence creates.

[Furtherman]

Are we talking about Pakistan or Wackbag?

[CountryBob]

I just hate it when a chick is killed.

[EliSnow]

One clarification of my point. I think the passion comes in response to the poverty, oppression, violence, etc.

What religious fanaticism does is give that passion a focus, which may help amplifly the passion.

[Earlshog]

Yes, but without the poverty, oppression, and violence, the religious fanaticism either won't take hold, or won't be as strong as it would be in an area without such elements. Religious fanaticism gives an outlet for feelings of hatred, self-pity, etc. that poverty, oppression, violence creates.

We are in essence discussing the same thing here. The particular circumstances you advised, poverty, oppression, and violence is the Petri dish / life line for this type of behavior to continue. The religious accepts is the trigger ( sorry you had to read that Earl).

[EliSnow]

We are in essence discussing the same thing here. The particular circumstances you advised, poverty, oppression, and violence is the Petri dish / life line for this type of behavior to continue. The religious accepts is the trigger ( sorry you had to read that Earl).

Agreed, although I'd add that the religion is not the only type of trigger out there. Any powerful idea could do it.

I mean look at the countries where communism took hold, like Russia and China. The time before the communistic revolution in both countries saw huge instabilities including war, starvation, and wide scale poverty.

[AlabamaMan]

Can I do a snack report now......:unsure:

[RAAMONE]

you chose a thread about the death of an important internationally known political figure to post a snank report?

[DiabloSammich]

That's our Bama! (canned laughter and applause)

[Zorro]

We are in essence discussing the same thing here. The particular circumstances you advised, poverty, oppression, and violence is the Petri dish / life line for this type of behavior to continue. The religious accepts is the trigger ( sorry you had to read that Earl).

When you believe that this life has no meaning beyond its' ability to transport you into paradise it doesn't matter whether you're rich or poor.

[Zorro]

Actually all this Bhutto talk is a waste.... here's something really important

Jessica Alba Engaged to Baby's Father

[EliSnow]

When you believe that this life has no meaning beyond its' ability to transport you into paradise it doesn't matter whether you're rich or poor.

Yes, but you're more willing to have that belief if your present life sucks.

[I Am The Lord Your God]

Verily, I work in mysterious ways.

[DiabloSammich]

Oh God, you so crazy! (canned laughter and applause)

[Zorro]

Yes, but you're more willing to have that belief if your present life sucks.

You keep saying that, but plenty of the people we've seen blow shit up are educated and well off. I'm not saying that poverty is not a problem, but to ignore the fact that this jihad mentality stretches across economic boundaries is a mistake.

[EliSnow]

You keep saying that, but plenty of the people we've seen blow shit up are educated and well off. I'm not saying that poverty is not a problem, but to ignore the fact that this jihad mentality stretches across economic boundaries is a mistake.

And I'm not saying that only the poor are zealots, but zealots are more likely to be impoverished or uneducated or exposed to oppression or violence, than from an unstable background.

You have to admit that a country like Pakistan is about 10x more unstable than the U.S.

Which is why the violent things that happen there are unlikely to be commonplace here.

You keep talking like my only point is poverty. I pointed out a bunch of other unstable characteristics of Pakistan that are not based on poverty.

[Bulldogcakes]

Another ten years and this shit will be as common here as it is in Pakistan


I've been hearing that for the last 10 years




. . . . whats that? NOOOO!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/smart/tomahawk_explosion_photo.jpg
http://cechy.webz.cz/soubory/explosion.jpg
http://student.sipoonlukio.com/~vainiomarko/galleria/explosion.jpg

[Bulldogcakes]

Uh... I know she's dead and all, but I don't know where you guys are getting the idea that she was a sybol of peace or a reformer or anything like that. She was the first female leader of a Muslim country, but she was more of a shrewd political player and a corrupt and dictatorial prime minister. She, and Nawaz Sharif - the other former PM who recently returned to run for the job again - were shitty leaders. That's part of the tradgedy of Pakistan - that some of their military dictators, including Musharraf, have actually been better for the country than their democratically elected civilians.

Her and her husband were up to their necks in corruption. She may have started out as a reformer, but once in office they robbed the country blind. She was also said to have been on the outs recently with Musharraf (after he initially backed her) and its reasonable to speculate that supporters of his may have even been behind this. Over and over recently he refused her requests for all sorts of security devices and protection that could have saved her life.

I'm sure Bush would have loved to have had a female PM in a Muslim country as a wonderful sign of how great his strategery is working in the region, but the Pakistani people would likely have ended up with more incompetance, corruption and suffered as a result.

BTW-This is why having a military dictatorship isn't such a bad thing from our POV sometimes. Especially when you're talking about a country with nukes. They may suck with civil rights, but at least its stable.

[Bulldogcakes]

We have suicide shooters.

and even better, suicide girls (http://suicidegirls.com/)

[scottinnj]

Another ten years and this shit will be as common here as it is in Pakistan

Let's hope not, and work to make sure it never becomes part of our political world. One of the reasons I like the law that says no saying I want to kill the prez, no matter who is in the office, is because I don't want the unstable in our country thinking it is in any way excusable to kill any elected official or government appointee, or judge or whoever to gain an advantage politically.

I've seen a lot of stuff about Bush on the internet that is pretty sad to see, and I'm sure if the blogs and message boards were this popular in the 90s, the heinous things about Clinton would be just as prevalent. I also feel bad for whoever is going to be the next President, just because of the division in the country now.

We should never wish death on an elected official on the boards. Cursing out an elected official and venting frustration is one thing, but to say "I hope someone shoots congressman so and so" is out of line. Because no matter how you feel about that person's policies, someone else elected him, and no matter what you think of them, they believe that what they are doing is the right thing.
We have a ballot box, and an impeachment system set up to correct problems elected officials bring. If someone stepped over the line, you can vote him/her out, or if in aggregious circumstances, impeach him.

I still like Bush. I still hate Kennedy. Neither of them should be harmed or threatened in any way whatsoever.

Assasinations are never good. No matter how good the short term gains are, the long term repercussions are always worse.

[scottinnj]

Uh... I know she's dead and all, but I don't know where you guys are getting the idea that she was a sybol of peace or a reformer or anything like that. She was the first female leader of a Muslim country, but she was more of a shrewd political player and a corrupt and dictatorial prime minister. She, and Nawaz Sharif - the other former PM who recently returned to run for the job again - were shitty leaders. That's part of the tradgedy of Pakistan - that some of their military dictators, including Musharraf, have actually been better for the country than their democratically elected civilians.


Oh dude, I couldn't wait to get home to see your brilliance. As usual, you are right. As much as she could have been a great ally to the U.S. given her unusually strong rhetoric against muslim extremists and Al Queada, to think that Pakistan was going to become a bastion of freedom and democracy under her ministership is naive. She provided a lot of hope to a lot of Pakistanis, and maybe more reform would have happened under her control, but maybe not. Unfortunately we'll never know now.

The thing we need to be worried about is security for the region. They have nukes, and they can launch them. So does India, and the whole reason both of these countries have nukes is because of Kashmir, and their arsenals weren't there like the U.S. vs. the U.S.S.R.-to be a deterant. The arsenals are for pre-emptive strikes both sides are constantly on the alert for. If something bad happened in India, and Pakistan thought it could win a war with India being weak, and Pakistan absorbing an acceptable amount of casualities, you bet those birds would be in the air, and the same thing here. If India senses weakness in Pakistan to be bad enough to warrant an invasion or some airstrikes, it'll do it.

Security is more important right now. The Pakistan military has to remain intact, and not become fractured between loyalties to the government and to the tribal lords. Right now, as flawed as he is Musharraf is the man we need to support to keep things as stable as possible.


Benazir Bhutto's assasination will hopefully, after this time of shock, anger and mourning in Pakistan, become the catalyst for the majority of Pakistanis who are moderates to become united in moving their country from a stable dictatorship to a stable democracy.

[scottinnj]

Im shocked there have been ZERO suicide bombers in America.
The kind that strap a bomb to their body and walk into a cafe...

I think its only a matter of time before THAT starts happening.


Nah, they come here, check in at the airport motel, and while wiring up their explosives, get a dose of HBO and Cinemax. They become fans of American culture overnight.



Oh, and wakka wakka!

[scottinnj]

BTW-This is why having a military dictatorship isn't such a bad thing from our POV sometimes. Especially when you're talking about a country with nukes. They may suck with civil rights, but at least its stable.d

QFT

I wish we had known about the WMDs before we invaded Iraq. Containment and stability would have been much better then what is going on now, which is hard for me to say.

[TeeBone]

There is nothing like a good Ole’ Fashioned Middle East assassination and this one had it all: Suicide bombings, uncertainty on exactly what happened, civil unrest, violent outcries, scrambled video and naturally; ridiculous questions of what will happen next. “Will Nukes be used?”, “Will the United States get evolved?” “Was Bhutto targeted for being a woman?” Valid questions for Fear mongering Liberals and Evil Conservatives hell-bent on getting you to watch more cable TV.
This story will simply will go away like most other assassinations that do not take place in the United States. Naturally a contradictory argument could be made for the 1914 assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand which occurred in Sarajevo. That act launched the world into war with American involvement. Today however; was different.
Muhammad Boudiaf (President of Algeria) was publicly executed on Live TV in 1992 by his bodyguard and we have forgotten about that one. That being said, have you ever heard of Boudiaf before? Additionally, had you really heard of Benazir Bhutto before today?
The news was very exciting today though with all the talk of Assassination.
This one had the panache of a FORD’s THEATER, but lacks the sticking power of a DEALEY PLAZA. When all is said and done, it’s somewhat comforting to know that the instability of Middle Eastern Hellholes still exist and that makes our world a little more exciting. I honestly do not know how we have made it this long. Long Live the Lunacy that is our species!!!!!

[Yerdaddy]

I wasn't just talking about poverty. There are other socio-political issues involved, although it's a big one. Also, yes, you can find well educated, wealthy religious zealots. But generally, if you want to find countries where suicide bombers or similar violence is common, you going to see countries with huge instabilities, poverty and violence.

Pakistan is one such countery. With Pakistan, when looking at what happened there, you have to take into account that you're dealing with a country that has a huge religious zealot popluation. We don't have the same percentages.

Moreover, you're dealing with a country where certain portions of the country cannot be controlled by the central government in any fashion. Instead, they're controlled by warlords and groups that help Taliban and Al Qeada.

You have a central government whose leader took control as part of a military coup. He refused to listen to their Supreme Court, suspended the consitution, shut down television channels, and then put his own people on the supreme court.

Pakistan, like other countries where you see suicide bombers or this type of bombers, differ in many ways from ours. And those differences are why the type of thing we saw today, will not become common here in 10 years, unless there is a huge event causing the same level of instability.

Also with regard to American kids "joining the jihad," really what do you think the percentage is that is doing so? The Muslim community in the US is no more than 5% and probably less. So even if every Muslim was a zealot (which they are not -- they are a minority here), you're not seeing more than a 5% movement amongst kids. However, in the countries we're talking about, the percentages are probably closer to 50% to 80%. And that number is not going to grow to such amounts because we don't have the same instabilties, poverty, and violence that other countries do.

Yerdaddy can probably provide more insight on this type of thing than I.


You're doing fine without me. I'll just add a bit.

American Muslims are between 7 and 10 million of a population of 300 million Americans. They are generally very patriotic while not happy with American policies towards Muslim countries. Support for terrorism among them is nearly as low as among the population as a whole. They are generally well assymilated into American society, which, along with these other stats, are in stark contrast to European Muslims who have been ghettoized and discriminated against for some time which makes them more likely to accept extremist indoctrination. This is something we as a society have done right, while some polls have indicated we're still more fearful of them than they deserve and we're willing to backtrack and become more like Europe in our relationship with our Muslim minorities. But it is one big reason we aren't in as much danger of attacks on our soil - groups would have to import operatives because we aren't providing them with the "homegrowns." American Muslims deserve more credit for this.

Every Muslim terrorist to conduct an attack on western soil, that I've ever heard of, has been western-educated and middle-class or above. This has to be considered an operationally pragmatic, even necessary, decision on the part of terrorist organizations - some broke-dick bearded Pakistani tribal sheppard isn't going to get a visa to the west, much less conduct an operation without some grocery clerk calling the FBI on him because
"he looks like a turrist".

But poverty, as every legitimate terrorism expert in the intel community and the military will tell you, is a critical element of terrorism today. A common thread running through the statements of the middle-class al-Qaeda operatives who have conducted ops has been the sense that their co-Religionists are being shat apon by everybody and they believe they are furthering the cause of their people's liberation. The belief in paradise for martyrdom operations is incidental in the spectrum of causes for terrorism and is overplayed by westerners, especially conservative and Christian pundits, as a way to point at Islam itself as inherently evil and thretening. It misses the point that the majority of Muslims in the world are shat upon by their own leaders and occasionaly by the west. This is borne out by the fact that al-Qaeda and other terrorist groups haven't set out as a primary goal to "destroy America" or the west or Christans or whatever self-serving lie Murdoch's minions like to put out. The primary goal of al-Qaeda is to drive us off of Muslim lands so they can then take over Muslim countries from their current leaders - just like they believe they did when they drove the Soviet Union out of Afghanistan and eventually implimented Taliban rule. They forget that they did this with the help of the US and the governments of Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Yemen, and most of the rest of the Muslim world. Now they think they can do it with all of these governments working against them. The fact is that the only way they can ever make any progress towards their goals is when we're stupid enough to help them - like we did with Iraq, and with mismanaging Pakistan.

Along with the fact that Muslims are fucked around the world is the number of educated Muslim men in Europe who rightfully feel discriminated against and limited in their prospects in western life. I honestly believe if Americans were poor and didn't have a military to go do our fighting for us we'd have Christian extemists trying to blow themselves up in foreign lands. The Qurán is basically a re-writing of the Old and New Testaments and you can, (and we have in our history), cherry-pick the Bible for justification of martyrdom operations as easily as you can the Qur'an. The vast majority of Muslims around the world want nothing to do with attacking America, the west, or their own governments because they don't want to give up what life they have. But when a young Muslim feels like he has no prospects in his environment and is approached by an extremist preacher with an ideology of redemption and serving his people through violence he's more likely to buy into it than the guy who feels like he's got a fair crack at living the life he wants. Europe needs to deal with it's propensity to create this condition on its soil and we need to make sure that we're not ready to create the same condition when, (not if), someone does get through the net and blows himself up on a subway somewhere in America.

A good short read, if the link still works: Scarier Than Bin Laden (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/07/AR2007090702056_pf.html)

[EliSnow]

You're doing fine without me. I'll just add a bit.

American Muslims are between 7 and 10 million of a population of 300 million Americans. They are generally very patriotic while not happy with American policies towards Muslim countries. Support for terrorism among them is nearly as low as among the population as a whole. They are generally well assymilated into American society, which, along with these other stats, are in stark contrast to European Muslims who have been ghettoized and discriminated against for some time which makes them more likely to accept extremist indoctrination. This is something we as a society have done right, while some polls have indicated we're still more fearful of them than they deserve and we're willing to backtrack and become more like Europe in our relationship with our Muslim minorities. But it is one big reason we aren't in as much danger of attacks on our soil - groups would have to import operatives because we aren't providing them with the "homegrowns." American Muslims deserve more credit for this.

Every Muslim terrorist to conduct an attack on western soil, that I've ever heard of, has been western-educated and middle-class or above. This has to be considered an operationally pragmatic, even necessary, decision on the part of terrorist organizations - some broke-dick bearded Pakistani tribal sheppard isn't going to get a visa to the west, much less conduct an operation without some grocery clerk calling the FBI on him because
"he looks like a turrist".

But poverty, as every legitimate terrorism expert in the intel community and the military will tell you, is a critical element of terrorism today. A common thread running through the statements of the middle-class al-Qaeda operatives who have conducted ops has been the sense that their co-Religionists are being shat apon by everybody and they believe they are furthering the cause of their people's liberation. The belief in paradise for martyrdom operations is incidental in the spectrum of causes for terrorism and is overplayed by westerners, especially conservative and Christian pundits, as a way to point at Islam itself as inherently evil and thretening. It misses the point that the majority of Muslims in the world are shat upon by their own leaders and occasionaly by the west. This is borne out by the fact that al-Qaeda and other terrorist groups haven't set out as a primary goal to "destroy America" or the west or Christans or whatever self-serving lie Murdoch's minions like to put out. The primary goal of al-Qaeda is to drive us off of Muslim lands so they can then take over Muslim countries from their current leaders - just like they believe they did when they drove the Soviet Union out of Afghanistan and eventually implimented Taliban rule. They forget that they did this with the help of the US and the governments of Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Yemen, and most of the rest of the Muslim world. Now they think they can do it with all of these governments working against them. The fact is that the only way they can ever make any progress towards their goals is when we're stupid enough to help them - like we did with Iraq, and with mismanaging Pakistan.

Along with the fact that Muslims are fucked around the world is the number of educated Muslim men in Europe who rightfully feel discriminated against and limited in their prospects in western life. I honestly believe if Americans were poor and didn't have a military to go do our fighting for us we'd have Christian extemists trying to blow themselves up in foreign lands. The Qurán is basically a re-writing of the Old and New Testaments and you can, (and we have in our history), cherry-pick the Bible for justification of martyrdom operations as easily as you can the Qur'an. The vast majority of Muslims around the world want nothing to do with attacking America, the west, or their own governments because they don't want to give up what life they have. But when a young Muslim feels like he has no prospects in his environment and is approached by an extremist preacher with an ideology of redemption and serving his people through violence he's more likely to buy into it than the guy who feels like he's got a fair crack at living the life he wants. Europe needs to deal with it's propensity to create this condition on its soil and we need to make sure that we're not ready to create the same condition when, (not if), someone does get through the net and blows himself up on a subway somewhere in America.

A good short read, if the link still works: Scarier Than Bin Laden (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/07/AR2007090702056_pf.html)


Thanks Yerdaddy. I was hoping to get these points across, but didn't have the specific facts or eloquence that you have.

[A.J.]

There is nothing like a good Ole’ Fashioned Middle East assassination and this one had it all

When all is said and done, it’s somewhat comforting to know that the instability of Middle Eastern Hellholes still exist and that makes our world a little more exciting.

Amazing.

PAKISTAN IS NOT IN THE MIDDLE EAST. IT'S IN SOUTH ASIA.

[Knowledged_one]

So what you are saying here is that Pakistan is in the Middle East

[Earlshog]

So what you are saying here is that Pakistan is in the Middle East

no no no... he is saying Pakistan is not part of Western Asia

[mendyweiss]

no no no... he is saying Pakistan is not part of Western Asia

You make a left on Mott Street, then pass through CHinatown, then you are in Pakistan

[Knowledged_one]

You make a left on Mott Street, then pass through CHinatown, then you are in Pakistan

Should have never taken that right at Albequerque

[Earlshog]

from cnn

Benazir Bhutto died from hitting her car's sunroof; no bullet or shrapnel found in her, Pakistan’s Interior Ministry says.

[Furtherman]

I still like Bush.

http://www.yomps.co.uk/assets/x/50263

Look! Amazing. One of the Bush lovers... only 24% left. Very rare, very dangerous. Their numbers are dwindling and days are numbered so soon we'll be able to walk with our heads held a little higher. Now, let's move on to something a little more beautiful, and smarter, than their leader... a baboon's ass.

[scottinnj]

http://www.yomps.co.uk/assets/x/50263

Look! Amazing. One of the Bush lovers... only 24% left. Very rare, very dangerous. Their numbers are dwindling and days are numbered so soon we'll be able to walk with our heads held a little higher. Now, let's move on to something a little more beautiful, and smarter, than their leader... a baboon's ass.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[scottinnj]

from cnn

Benazir Bhutto died from hitting her car's sunroof; no bullet or shrapnel found in her, Pakistan’s Interior Ministry says.

They said her spine snapped as well from the bomb's concussion wave. Dude came prepared. Scumbag.

[TeeBone]

Amazing.

PAKISTAN IS NOT IN THE MIDDLE EAST. IT'S IN SOUTH ASIA.

Pakistan borders both Iran and Afghanistan. I'll make this short and sweet; When the seperation of Pakistan and India occurred after British rule crumbled, the Muslims (Pakistan) seperated themselves as a nation from the Hindus (India). This is as simple explanation as I can offer you. Furthermore, Pakistan is generally lumped with the Middle East nations, although a case can be made for Asia as well. Due to the nature of its Islamic roots however; most people classify Pakistan as a Middle-Eastern Nation.
I look forward to your cut-and-paste Wikapedia reply.

[TheMojoPin]

Due to the nature of its Islamic roots however; most people classify Pakistan as a Middle-Eastern Nation.

So by that thinking, Indonesia is in the Middle East?

[TeeBone]

So by that thinking, Indonesia is in the Middle East?

No Pin-----that is not near the Middle East. Don't confuse yourself.

[TheMojoPin]

No Pin-----that is not near the Middle East. Don't confuse yourself.

Russia is technically "near" the Middle East, Europe and Asia. China is "near" Asia, Europe and the Middle East. Hell, India is apparently "near" the Middle East and Asia. Egypt is "near" Africa and the Middle East. Turkey is "near" Europe and the Middle East...etc., etc., etc..

Technically, Pakistan is correctly identified as an Asian country.

[TeeBone]

Knee bone---thigh Bone----Back Bone, etc...

I see your point, but my point is valid as well.

[Yerdaddy]

Pakistan borders both Iran and Afghanistan. I'll make this short and sweet; When the seperation of Pakistan and India occurred after British rule crumbled, the Muslims (Pakistan) seperated themselves as a nation from the Hindus (India). This is as simple explanation as I can offer you. Furthermore, Pakistan is generally lumped with the Middle East nations, although a case can be made for Asia as well. Due to the nature of its Islamic roots however; most people classify Pakistan as a Middle-Eastern Nation.
I look forward to your cut-and-paste Wikapedia reply.

http://www.funnycoolstuff.com/images/world-map.jpg

You suck geography.

[TeeBone]

Nice!!!! And point well taken.

[A.J.]

Pakistan borders both Iran and Afghanistan. I'll make this short and sweet; When the seperation of Pakistan and India occurred after British rule crumbled, the Muslims (Pakistan) seperated themselves as a nation from the Hindus (India). This is as simple explanation as I can offer you. Furthermore, Pakistan is generally lumped with the Middle East nations, although a case can be made for Asia as well. Due to the nature of its Islamic roots however; most people classify Pakistan as a Middle-Eastern Nation.
I look forward to your cut-and-paste Wikapedia reply.

My reply is this: I lived in the Middle East and the Arabs there don't consider the Pakistanis Middle Easterners -- especially when they bring them over to work at slave-labor wages. They are two entirely different cultures -- Islam notwithstanding.

I refer you also to our Department of State's website:

The Bureau of Near Eastern Affairs (NEA), headed by Assistant Secretary C. David Welch, deals with U.S. foreign policy and U.S. diplomatic relations with Algeria, Bahrain, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Israel, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Morocco, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Tunisia, United Arab Emirates, and Yemen. Regional policy issues that NEA handles include Iraq, Middle East peace, terrorism and weapons of mass destruction, and political and economic reform. (http://www.state.gov/p/nea/)

Assistant Secretary Richard A. Boucher heads the Bureau of South and Central Asian Affairs,which deals with U.S. foreign policy and U.S. relations with the countries of Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Bhutan, India, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Maldives, Nepal, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, and Uzbekistan. (http://www.state.gov/p/sca/)

[jauble]

My reply is this: I lived in the Middle East and the Arabs there don't consider the Pakistanis Middle Easterners -- especially when they bring them over to work at slave-labor wages. They are two entirely different cultures -- Islam notwithstanding.

I refer you also to our Department of State's website:

The Bureau of Near Eastern Affairs (NEA), headed by Assistant Secretary C. David Welch, deals with U.S. foreign policy and U.S. diplomatic relations with Algeria, Bahrain, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Israel, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Morocco, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Tunisia, United Arab Emirates, and Yemen. Regional policy issues that NEA handles include Iraq, Middle East peace, terrorism and weapons of mass destruction, and political and economic reform. (http://www.state.gov/p/nea/)

Assistant Secretary Richard A. Boucher heads the Bureau of South and Central Asian Affairs,which deals with U.S. foreign policy and U.S. relations with the countries of Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Bhutan, India, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Maldives, Nepal, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, and Uzbekistan. (http://www.state.gov/p/sca/)


FACE (and Im not just trying to get a mod quote)

[TeeBone]

My reply is this: I lived in the Middle East and the Arabs there don't consider the Pakistanis Middle Easterners -- especially when they bring them over to work at slave-labor wages. They are two entirely different cultures -- Islam notwithstanding.[/URL]

I refer you to my middle finger, because Pakistan is the Middle-East.

[DolaMight]

Not to reopen the geography debate again but I thought Pakistan was considered to be part of Upstate New York.

[TeeBone]

Not to reopen the geography debate again but I thought Pakistan was considered to be part of Upstate New York.

You're too late to the dance, Dola.
I'm wrong, I know and I'm feverishly trying to argue anyway. I still maintain that because it is technically border of THE MIDDLE EAST, that Pakistan is a part of the Middle East; primarily because of how it was formed and its overwhelming Islamic population. It is only because it borders Middle Eastern Nations.

[DESMO22]

If Jay Len had his writers;he probably would have said "breaking news - vice president Dick Chaney suspected of hunting in Pakistan"

[King Hippos Bandaid]

If Jay Len had his writers;he probably would have said "breaking news - vice president Dick Chaney suspected of hunting in Pakistan"

you Canadians are witty

[Earlshog]

If Jay Len had his writers;he probably would have said "breaking news - vice president Dick Chaney suspected of hunting in Pakistan"

good one.....

[Recyclerz]

I refer you to my middle finger, because Pakistan is the Middle-East.

I suspect that Mr. Bone is positioning himself to be Mayor Giuliani's Secy. of State if Rudy gets elected.

:glurps:

[TheMojoPin]

NEWSFLASH: America is actually part of Central America, given that we share a border and pretty much the same Christian faiths.

[Recyclerz]

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/-D77VDmMvsQ&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/-D77VDmMvsQ&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

This young lady turns out to be an Oracle for our times.

[A.J.]

I refer you to my middle finger, because Pakistan is the Middle-East.

You're right. Now I'm convinced.

[EliSnow]

I refer you to my middle finger, because Pakistan is the Middle-East.

You're right. Now I'm convinced.

Actually, TeeBone was holding up his ring finger, as it is near his middle finger and shares the same hand.

[epo]

Bilawal Zardari was named chairman of the Pakistan People's Party, succeeding his mother. (http://www.bangkokpost.com/breaking_news/breakingnews.php?id=124788)

Pakistan's Bhutto family political dynasty passed the torch on Sunday as the 19-year-old son of assassinated opposition leader Benazir Bhutto was named chairman of the Pakistan People's Party (PPP).

Interesting to say the least.

[Bulldogcakes]

Thats pretty old. King Tut was 16 when he took over Egypt.

[sailor]

i've seen it referred to as both middle east and southeast asia and looking at a map they both make a bit of sense.

[TheMojoPin]

i've seen it referred to as both middle east and southeast asia and looking at a map they both make a bit of sense.

That's awesome.

It's in Asia.

[sr71blackbird]

New video of the attack seems much more likely that she was shot before the bomb went off.


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[sailor]

That's awesome.

It's in Asia.

yes, it's on the continent of asia. so is virtually all of the middle east.

[scottinnj]

Well, as far as being in Asia, you are correct, IMO. It is considered Southwest Asia.

[scottinnj]

The elections are more then likely to be postponed from January 8th to a later date (http://www.iht.com/articles/reuters/2008/01/01/asia/OUKWD-UK-PAKISTAN-CRISIS.php).


ISLAMABAD: Pakistani electoral officials will decide on Tuesday whether to go ahead with a January 8 poll, with expectations it will be delayed by up to two months after Benazir Bhutto's killing.

Do you think the U.N. should send in observers to monitor the election when it occurs? And if so, will that be more trouble due to ill feelings towards the West? Or if the U.N. observes, do you think the Pakistani people will have more trust in the poll results?

[scottinnj]

Bilawal Zardari was named chairman of the Pakistan People's Party, succeeding his mother. (http://www.bangkokpost.com/breaking_news/breakingnews.php?id=124788)



Interesting to say the least.

Isn't her husband going to be the person who will become Prime Minister if she's "elected?"

Sort of like how Jean Carnahan beat John Ashcroft for U.S. Senate after her husaband Mel, who was on the ballot was killed in a plane crash.

[Yerdaddy]

The elections are more then likely to be postponed from January 8th to a later date (http://www.iht.com/articles/reuters/2008/01/01/asia/OUKWD-UK-PAKISTAN-CRISIS.php).




Do you think the U.N. should send in observers to monitor the election when it occurs? And if so, will that be more trouble due to ill feelings towards the West? Or if the U.N. observes, do you think the Pakistani people will have more trust in the poll results?

Musharraf was rigging the elections before Bhutto's assassination: (http://www.iht.com/articles/reuters/2007/12/13/asia/OUKWD-UK-PAKISTAN-RIGGING.php)

13 December - ISLAMABAD: Prospects for a free and fair general election in Pakistan next month are poor and a rigged result could lead to more instability and play into the hands of Islamist militants, election watchdog groups said.

Opposition parties are also complaining that a caretaker government set up to oversee the vote is stacked with supporters of President Pervez Musharraf who are already working to engineer a victory for the former ruling party.

Musharraf has urged efforts to ensure a fair vote but watchdog groups say the caretaker administration, from the central government to district level, can fix the result with the help of a tame judiciary and a partly muzzled media.

Pakistani media criticised this week a ban on live broadcasts as an attempt to control election coverage.

Except in certain cases in which the UN has special jurisdiction over a place, like Camodia in 1993 and East Timor a few years ago, most election monitoring is done by EU groups, US Democratic or Republican party groups, (NDI or IRI, respectively), and other regional or indigenous organizations. (In Yemen, the National Democratic Institute did a bang-up job in Yemen - in both election monitoring and evaluation, and in democracy-building in general in their permanent capacity. David Finkel won the Pulitzer last year for his huge 3-part piece in the Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/linkset/2006/04/17/LI2006041700584.html) about his good, if slightly problematic - in my opinion - piece on an NDI program to mediate tribal conflict that was squashed by the president there. It's a good read even though Finkel told me he'd bring me some books on journalism, but I guess he was too busy winning a Pulitzer!)

In Pakistan's case the EU and the International Republican Institute seem to be the big ones, and the IRI looks like it's going to withold monitors, at least if they aren't delayed:

Some Election Monitors Pulling Out of Pakistan
December 28, 2007 6:26 PM (http://blogs.abcnews.com/rapidreport/2007/12/some-election-m.html)

ABC News' Kirit Radia reports: The International Republic Institute is cancelling plans to send as many as 65 election monitors to observe Pakistan's parliamentary elections, scheduled for Jan. 8.

While they aren't the only organization scheduled to send monitors, one source says the EU is also currently reconsidering sending monitors as well.

According to sources, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because IRI does not plan on announcing the decision publicly, the decision was reached today, due in large part to the assassination of former Pakistani Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto yesterday.

Other factors are said to be security concerns for monitors and IRI's ability "to observe in a credible way," given unspecified concerns about role of Pakistan's election commission.

Pakistanis have never had a clean election, so while this assassination will certainly stirr up the people and give a push for Bhutto's party and all the other opposition parties as well, I think the underlying long-term political cynicism will keep the turmoil relatively contained. The problem is however that this is just one more blow to democracy in that country and it lends itself to the propensity to turn to other means, like violence, to solve the public's problems. Pakistan needs democracy. It's not going to get it in the next couple of years, but if the country isn't seen to be moving in that direction it will never be able to stop the bombings and the assassinations and the support for terrorism in general. And it's at risk for Islamists taking over the goverment, and potentially it's nuclear weapons. America should have been pushing the country to for democratic reforms, (civil society building, rather that the simplistic focus on elections), since 2001. It hasn't, and that's bad for the long-term strategy for dealing with Pakistan.

[scottinnj]

With Sharif calling for Masharraf to resign or he takes his toys and goes home (http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/01/01/asia/01pakistan.php), I don't think that any political reform or a fair election is going to happen anytime soon.
Somehow though I just can't stand him though for going out and saying these things. It is as if he sees the unrest and vitriole generated by Bhutto's assasination and is trying to capatilize on it for his own gain at the cost of overall stability and security in Pakistan.

[Earlshog]

Scotland Yard to help probe Bhutto assassination

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/01/02/pakistan.elections/index.html

[Recyclerz]

And Parlimentary elections get pushed back to February.

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSL3025135820080102

Well, when Pakistan does have them I hope for their sake the elections go as well as Kenya's.


Wait, ... what?

[scottinnj]

And Parlimentary elections get pushed back to February.

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSL3025135820080102

Well, when Pakistan does have them I hope for their sake the elections go as well as Kenya's.


Wait, ... what?

OOOOOOooooo.....That one hurt.

[Dirtybird12]

The CIA has concluded members of al-Qaida and allies of a Pakistani tribal leader were responsible for the assassination of former Pakistani prime minister Benazir Bhutto.

full story (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22690096/)

[ralphbxny]

Taliban and Queda are taking over Outer Pakistan. They are a Country in Trouble. I was Watchin BBC news last night and its a shitty situation!

[scottinnj]

Taliban and Queda are taking over Outer Pakistan. They are a Country in Trouble. I was Watchin BBC news last night and its a shitty situation!

And India is paying close attention, and both countries have nukes. Shitty situation is putting it mildly.

[PapaBear]

I'm still not buying it.

Scotland Yard has concluded that opposition leader Benazir Bhutto died as a result of a suicide bomb blast, not a gunshot, according to a summary of the findings released Friday that supports the Pakistani government's version of the events. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080208/ap_on_re_as/pakistan_bhutto_8)

"In essence, all the evidence indicates that one suspect has fired the shots before detonating an improvised explosive device," the report said.
The report noted that despite the lack of a detailed search of the crime scene or autopsy of Bhutto's body, "the evidence that is available is sufficient for reliable conclusions to be drawn." Investigators had relied considerably on X-rays and detailed examination of video footage of the attack, it said.
Before the findings were officially released, Rehman called into question Scotalnd Yard's ability to fully investigate the killing.
"Their terms of reference were limited," Rehman said of the British. "They were working under the Pakistani police. Their investigation was limited only to finding the cause of her death."

[Earlshog]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/02/12/pakistan.musharraf.warrant/index.html?hpt=T2


A court in Pakistan issued an arrest warrant Saturday for former Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf in connection with the assassination of former Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto, a public prosecutor told CNN.