A recession seems more likely

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Well Wall st had another triple digit loss today. Since the beginning of the year the Dow is down over 1000 points. The broader S&P has tanked big time as well. Throw in the credit crunch, and Subprime mortgage disaster along with companies like Merrill and Citigroup writing down tens of billions of dollars. Doesnt look too good


http://money.cnn.com/2008/01/17/markets/markets_0500/index.htm?postversion=2008011718

[Bulldogcakes]

(Our next president) Bloomberg said in his State of the City speech today that the city's reciepts are already down. I noticed in my biz during the recent Christmas season that the holiday seemed to be going along well, and then it just ran out of gas a few weeks early. A typical good season will stay busy through New Years.

I try not to think about this stuff. You really can't control it, so I just go about doing my thing. You can expand in bad times and go out of business in good times. So whatever the economy is like, you just need to be smart. Alot of people overspend/overexpand during the good times and then get caught with their pants down when it inevitably ends.

"When the tide goes out, you find out who's been swimming naked"-Warren Buffet

[scottinnj]

The economy gives and takes, and always comes back stronger after a recession. The problem is keeping the recession as short and as pain free as possible.
Keeping tax rates where they are helps, not raising or lowering them. Inflation rates are going up, a factor in predicting that it is coming, if we aren't in one already. I personally think we have begun the recession, and it is starting mildly. Energy prices, if they keep going up, will factor in to whether or not it will remain mild or get harsh. When people begin pulling back on purchases and non-essential durable goods (HDTVs, MP3 players, etc.) inflation will drop and the dollar will get stronger again, and wala! We get out of the recession and begin another recovery and regrow the economy again.
In the meantime, concentrate on paying down debt, and try to save money in bonds and savings accounts. Keep your extra cash protected, and you'll ride through it with no problems.

[HBox]

I'm looking for a job so this is wonderful timing.

[bigtim666]

I'm looking for a job so this is wonderful timing.

Me too, this sucks

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Looks like we might get some money back from Uncle Sam. Don't spend it all in 1 place

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080119/ap_on_go_pr_wh/economy_stimulus

[FUNKMAN]

fuck Bush in his fucking ear. yeah, put more money in the hands of the wealthy and corporations and it leads to job growth and a better economy. so why the fuck are hundreds of thousands if not millions of people losing their homes. plus his deficit is running 700billion dollars higher than when clinton left office, where the fuck did all the money go.

the fact is corporate executives continued to get record salaries and bonuses as they reduced staff, outsourced jobs, reduced or taken away medical benefits, wage freezes, and cancelled retirement plans. so when i hear talk of "further corporate tax breaks" it makes me want to put a bullet in somebodies fucking head. Wall Street is raping this country and countries around the world. the price of oil goes up for no good fucking reason and as a few rake in billions of dollars and amass wealth, the masses pick up the check. the wealth that's gained, it's gone, it's sitting in someone's bank account.

well now that money has to earn interest right? so where does that money come from. well a million people are losing their home right so now what do they have? bad credit. What does that mean? 20% interest on a car loan, 30% interest on a credit card. a report came out a few days ago. it turns out the mortgage companies were applying penalties to the mortgage of minorities, an unjustified penalty, they were writing the mortgages to be 'very confusing' to the minority borrower. now why the fuck would they do something like this? because they could, and because people were looking for the 'short term' wealth gain at someone else's expense. and I don't specifically know about the whole tie-in between Banks/Mortgages/Wall Street but you can gurantee there are those few out there who raked in billions of dollars. these are the people they have to go after and take their fucking money away.

they're not addressing the problem, the problem is at the top. they talk about an 800 or 1600 tax rebate for single people and family's. WTF is that gonna do, it's one month or half a month's rent or mortgage for most people. people need jobs, with benefits, and retirement plans, and medical coverage. it's the extreme greed in this capitalist society, and the laws and the system that allows it that's the problem, and it has accelerated in the past decade...

[FUNKMAN]

haven't gotten off my soapbox yet :smile:

i also heard mention that the thinking is with the 800 or 1600 dollar rebates is the poor or middle-class will most likely go out and spend it on things that will stimulate the economy. the real 'hidden message' in that statement is it will increase corporate profits and who will that benefit? the shareholder and wall street. it certainly ain't gonna benefit the working man because the corporations aren't going to reduce the exorbitant executive salaries or bonuses, or prevent out-sourcing, or increase the medical plans for it's current full-time employees, or give the employee a better retirement package, it just ain't fucking happening...

[Tenbatsuzen]

haven't gotten off my soapbox yet :smile:

i also heard mention that the thinking is with the 800 or 1600 dollar rebates is the poor or middle-class will most likely go out and spend it on things that will stimulate the economy. the real 'hidden message' in that statement is it will increase corporate profits and who will that benefit? the shareholder and wall street. it certainly ain't gonna benefit the working man because the corporations aren't going to reduce the exorbitant executive salaries or bonuses, or prevent out-sourcing, or increase the medical plans for it's current full-time employees, or give the employee a better retirement package, it just ain't fucking happening...

If it benefits wall street, then it benefits me, because I have a 401K. I've lost 5 grand since Thanksgiving. I AM NOT AMUSED.

[Tenbatsuzen]

fuck Bush in his fucking ear. yeah, put more money in the hands of the wealthy and corporations and it leads to job growth and a better economy. so why the fuck are hundreds of thousands if not millions of people losing their homes. plus his deficit is running 700billion dollars higher than when clinton left office, where the fuck did all the money go.

Are you seriously blaming Bush because shady mortgage brokers cut bad deals on people who were clueless when it came to mortgages?

[donnie_darko]

recession might be putting too good a spin on what is more along the lines of the decline of a nation.

i still haven't heard on how this is effecting immigration to the u.s.?
are we still seen as the land of plenty?

[FUNKMAN]

Are you seriously blaming Bush because shady mortgage brokers cut bad deals on people who were clueless when it came to mortgages?

of course you are going to point blame at the "person in charge" of the country whether justified or not. i don't blame him specifically for that but I do blame him for giving the wealthiest americans the highest tax break. i blame him for spending a trillion dollars in Iraq as so many americans go without healthcare. A trillion dollars spent in IRAQ and he's talking about 150 Billion for the american people in a time of crisis, yeah that bothers me...

an article came out recently where people without healthcare have a 60% more chance of dying from cancer. you know there are roundabout ways of killing your own people without shooting them directly in the head which is what people blamed Saddam for. the end results are the same, people die.

3,000 killed on 9/11 but we avg 15,000 murders a year in this country and have the highest prison population in the world, but spend a trillion dollars in Iraq

the current "stimulus package" is not addressing the real problems that I explained in the earlier posts

[WRESTLINGFAN]

If it benefits wall street, then it benefits me, because I have a 401K. I've lost 5 grand since Thanksgiving. I AM NOT AMUSED.

Ouch!! I know what its like my 401k is down about 7% since the beginning of the year. Why cant they put a temporary moratorium on these social security taxes that I pay and will never reap the benefit of. Why dont they ease up on the wasteful spending in Washington. People talk about the war costing a fortune and that is justified, but what about all the other wasteful spending on these porkbarrel projects? ie 75mm for spinach storage etc

[HBox]

Are you guys in your 50s? If not why worry about your 401K now? A recession was coming at some point, and when it does hit you should be most worried about holding on to that job and that 401K until the next upswing comes and it recovers.

[spoon]

Are you guys in your 50s? If not why worry about your 401K now? A recession was coming at some point, and when it does hit you should be most worried about holding on to that job and that 401K until the next upswing comes and it recovers.

Funkman is gonna kick your butt whipper snapper!:furious:

[TheMojoPin]

GODDAMN SPINACH STORAGE.

Asshole vegetables.

[thepaulo]

We're all doomed.....doomed....doomed.

[Tenbatsuzen]

Are you guys in your 50s? If not why worry about your 401K now? A recession was coming at some point, and when it does hit you should be most worried about holding on to that job and that 401K until the next upswing comes and it recovers.

No matter what, you should always be concerned with your retirement savings. As money compounds, the funds you conserve now can be used later.

As I said, I lost five grand. No matter what, five grand is five grand, and that could have been prevented.

[cougarjake13]

haven't gotten off my soapbox yet :smile:

i also heard mention that the thinking is with the 800 or 1600 dollar rebates is the poor or middle-class will most likely go out and spend it on things that will stimulate the economy. the real 'hidden message' in that statement is it will increase corporate profits and who will that benefit? the shareholder and wall street. it certainly ain't gonna benefit the working man because the corporations aren't going to reduce the exorbitant executive salaries or bonuses, or prevent out-sourcing, or increase the medical plans for it's current full-time employees, or give the employee a better retirement package, it just ain't fucking happening...



dont know about anyone else but if i get 800 or 1600 it aint going to buy frivolous things

most likely it will just go into a savings account or possibly pay off some bills

[scottinnj]

dont know about anyone else but if i get 800 or 1600 it aint going to buy frivolous things

most likely it will just go into a savings account or possibly pay off some bills



QFT

[DarkHippie]

Are you seriously blaming Bush because shady mortgage brokers cut bad deals on people who were clueless when it came to mortgages?

I blame the real estate agents

[Alice S. Fuzzybutt]

Alls I know is that I'm middle class and no matter what I'm going to get screwed royally.

I have an image in my head 300 years from now when a teacher tells his pupils about capitalism. There will be a lot of children with puzzled looks on their faces.

"That's all they knew back then," the teacher will say.

Granted, they'll have bigger fish to fry; like NUCULEAR ZOMBIE hordes and all.

[HBox]

No matter what, you should always be concerned with your retirement savings. As money compounds, the funds you conserve now can be used later.

As I said, I lost five grand. No matter what, five grand is five grand, and that could have been prevented.

Well, maybe this particular instance might have been prevented BUT recessions happen. If it didn't happen now it would happen next year. What would really blow if you were retiring just as the market takes a dive.

[scottinnj]

Might use it to pay for a trip to Orlando, but more then likely, pay bills. I had a Christmas bonus I was planning to use to pay to get to Orlando, but when the wife was fired, that all went to shit. Hopefully now that we are caught up we'll be able to go, but we still have some bills to pay.

[Recyclerz]

Wow, this thread is going in 100 different directions already but I want to get my 2 cents in anyway.

I'm not sure we're going to have a real recession (2 qtrs. of economic contraction) but economic growth is going to be hampered by the mortgage mess. My guess is that the subprime mortgage crisis is going to get solved in a similar way to the S&L crisis of the late 80's /early '90's - taxpayer bailout that few people notice (although the $ will be big), some speculators go bankrupt but the smarter rich people buy up a lot of cheap real estate that they'll sell for huge profits in 5-10 years. Overall, not good but not a Great Depression type problem either.

Don't sweat the fluctuations in your 401(k)s or IRAs until you're over 50. Just keep throwing what you can afford into them (every paycheck) and be invested in a diversified portfolio including a healthy % in international stocks. You may not get Warren Buffet rich but you'll be much better off than 80% of your fellow citizens in the long run. If you sweat every dip in the market (and your balances) when you're young (or youngish) you'll wind up with Earl's gastrointestinal system.

If you don't spend the tax cut you get from a stimulus plan it doesn't work. Since I've got regular savings already built into my monthly budget, I'll use any tax rebate I get to stimulate the economy by renting two hookers at a time instead of just one. I guess I'm just patriotic that way. :smile:

[HBox]

Wow, this thread is going in 100 different directions already but I want to get my 2 cents in anyway.

I'm not sure we're going to have a real recession (2 qtrs. of economic contraction) but economic growth is going to be hampered by the mortgage mess. My guess is that the subprime mortgage crisis is going to get solved in a similar way to the S&L crisis of the late 80's /early '90's - taxpayer bailout that few people notice (although the $ will be big), some speculators go bankrupt but the smarter rich people buy up a lot of cheap real estate that they'll sell for huge profits in 5-10 years. Overall, not good but not a Great Depression type problem either.

Don't sweat the fluctuations in your 401(k)s or IRAs until you're over 50. Just keep throwing what you can afford into them (every paycheck) and be invested in a diversified portfolio including a healthy % in international stocks. You may not get Warren Buffet rich but you'll be much better off than 80% of your fellow citizens in the long run. If you sweat every dip in the market (and your balances) when you're young (or youngish) you'll wind up with Earl's gastrointestinal system.

If you don't spend the tax cut you get from a stimulus plan it doesn't work. Since I've got regular savings already built into my monthly budget, I'll use any tax rebate I get to stimulate the economy by renting two hookers at a time instead of just one. I guess I'm just patriotic that way. :smile:

God bless you sir. I'm so shook by your patriotism I have cried a single tear.

[spoon]

No matter what, you should always be concerned with your retirement savings. As money compounds, the funds you conserve now can be used later.

As I said, I lost five grand. No matter what, five grand is five grand, and that could have been prevented.

But yet you have much better buying power now and those stocks will surely rise over the next 20 years you are from retirement. You know what he means.

[spoon]

haven't gotten off my soapbox yet :smile:

i also heard mention that the thinking is with the 800 or 1600 dollar rebates is the poor or middle-class will most likely go out and spend it on things that will stimulate the economy. the real 'hidden message' in that statement is it will increase corporate profits and who will that benefit? the shareholder and wall street. it certainly ain't gonna benefit the working man because the corporations aren't going to reduce the exorbitant executive salaries or bonuses, or prevent out-sourcing, or increase the medical plans for it's current full-time employees, or give the employee a better retirement package, it just ain't fucking happening...

Gotta love the Funk. Right on point my friend.

[spoon]

God bless you sir. I'm so shook by your patriotism I have cried a single tear.

The real question here is...what does Clemens think?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

GODDAMN SPINACH STORAGE.

Asshole vegetables.

No wonder veggies are despised by many

I remember Clinton and Schumer lobbying for a Woodstock Museum pork project but I think that Idea was shot down

[TheMojoPin]

Goddamn museums.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Looks like tomorrow will be painful. Futures are pointing to a very weak opening. World markets plunged today
http://www.cnbc.com/id/22767912

[Marc with a c]

fed cuts rate .75%

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aEgwdDHD5Fbs&refer=home

[CofyCrakCocaine]

How much longer 'till I can live in a shanty?

[Cleophus James]

Get ready because here it comes.

I work at a foundry (manufacturing). Every time we hit bad times here, the rest of the nation does also.

Reason: We are the base of the supplier chain. We take raw materials, and make them into parts that go onto engines, ag equipment, etc. Our raw materials in the last month have been jacked up. This is the worst increase since the last recession. Hence we charge more for our product, then the big boys charge more for their product, so on, and so on.

Side note: There are few suppliers of foundry goods. Due to expense and environmental regulation. So it isn't just us getting an increase. AKA the ground work for unchecked inflation. But this is a micro look at a macro situation.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Looks like the Asian markets are in positive territory, In no way does this predict what will happen tomorrow morning with our markets but in any case it might be a sign of hope

http://www.cnbc.com/id/22790401

[earthbrown]

WELL WITH THE 800the govt gives you buy ammo for the race war when obama is elected.


K

[FUNKMAN]

McCain is pushing 'Corporate Tax Breaks'... I hope he gets hit by a fucking bus

the little bus is all it should take

[furie]

of course you are going to point blame at the "person in charge" of the country whether justified or not. i don't blame him specifically for that but I do blame him for giving the wealthiest americans the highest tax break. i blame him for spending a trillion dollars in Iraq as so many americans go without healthcare. A trillion dollars spent in IRAQ and he's talking about 150 Billion for the american people in a time of crisis, yeah that bothers me...

an article came out recently where people without healthcare have a 60% more chance of dying from cancer. you know there are roundabout ways of killing your own people without shooting them directly in the head which is what people blamed Saddam for. the end results are the same, people die.

3,000 killed on 9/11 but we avg 15,000 murders a year in this country and have the highest prison population in the world, but spend a trillion dollars in Iraq

the current "stimulus package" is not addressing the real problems that I explained in the earlier posts

Tax breaks, Iraq, an increasing debt, heathcare, 9/11, crime rates and incarceration all in one train of thought.

wow, how do you do that?

this recession has been caused by the falling value of the dollar and the credit crunch. a tax rebate, while cute and all won't solve the larger issues at play. I just hope that someone upthere understands this.

I hate to politicize this thread further, but which of the candidate do you think can fix this mess?

[FUNKMAN]

Tax breaks, Iraq, an increasing debt, heathcare, 9/11, crime rates and incarceration all in one train of thought.

wow, how do you do that?
this recession has been caused by the falling value of the dollar and the credit crunch. a tax rebate, while cute and all won't solve the larger issues at play. I just hope that someone upthere understands this.

I hate to politicize this thread further, but which of the candidate do you think can fix this mess?

just a combination of thoughts...

to answer your question they are gonna have to start printing more money or take money away from the top 1 to 5 % of the wealthiest. too much wealth has been hoarded by the top 1 to 5%, and it is leaving the bottom bare. it's one thing for millions to have no healthcare but when millions have to leave their homes or file bankruptcy then it deepens the problem drastically.

there has been a trend where corporations and businesses have stopped supporting retirement plans, they've reduced or have done away with medical benefits, they're out-sourcing. But all the time Executive salaries and bonuses increase. Wall Street ought to be blown off the face of the fucking earth( not with any people in it though )

any candidate that could get those few things done would be a good candidate

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Tax breaks, Iraq, an increasing debt, heathcare, 9/11, crime rates and incarceration all in one train of thought.

wow, how do you do that?

this recession has been caused by the falling value of the dollar and the credit crunch. a tax rebate, while cute and all won't solve the larger issues at play. I just hope that someone upthere understands this.

I hate to politicize this thread further, but which of the candidate do you think can fix this mess?


This tax rebate is nothing but a glorified gift card. We might get $800 per person but most will spend over $1000

[furie]

just a combination of thoughts...

to answer your question they are gonna have to start printing more money or take money away from the top 1 to 5 % of the wealthiest. too much wealth has been hoarded by the top 1 to 5%, and it is leaving the bottom bare. it's one thing for millions to have no healthcare but when millions have to leave their homes or file bankruptcy then it deepens the problem drastically.

there has been a trend where corporations and businesses have stopped supporting retirement plans, they've reduced or have done away with medical benefits, they're out-sourcing. But all the time Executive salaries and bonuses increase. Wall Street ought to be blown off the face of the fucking earth( not with any people in it though )

any candidate that could get those few things done would be a good candidate

not really an answer...

[TheMojoPin]

WELL WITH THE 800the govt gives you buy ammo for the race war when obama is elected.


K

Are you planning on starting one?

[FUNKMAN]

not really an answer...

The only person I heard addressing the real issue is Edwards, he spoke of the growing divide between rich and poor and seemed sincere about doing something about it. I've heard Obama and Hillary pushing the 'stimulus package' which means absolutely nothing for the poor or middle-class. The expectation is the poor and middle-class will spend the 800 or 1600 on goods that will help the economy. As I've stated before the only good it will do is increase corporate profits which will help shareholders. The majority of poor and middle-class i will guess do not own shares of stock. The 800 or 1600 will pay a month or a half months rent or mortgage and "what then?"

Franklin D Roosevelt closed the banks when the Bank owners said he couldn't. We need someone to clean house on Wall Street and in the Corporate Executive world and divide the money evenly and fairly. Before this recession there were already tens of millions of people in poverty, so who is it a recession for now? Now the recession is moving up so a whole new set of tens of millions of people are feeling the pinch. TOO MUCH HOARDING AT THE TOP!

sorry, i know i'm writing alot but there is nobody that I feel that is gonna fix the real problem but if you want the most change go with

Obama/Edwards

[furie]

The only person I heard addressing the real issue is Edwards, he spoke of the growing divide between rich and poor and seemed sincere about doing something about it. I've heard Obama and Hillary pushing the 'stimulus package' which means absolutely nothing for the poor or middle-class. The expectation is the poor and middle-class will spend the 800 or 1600 on goods that will help the economy. As I've stated before the only good it will do is increase corporate profits which will help shareholders. The majority of poor and middle-class i will guess do not own shares of stock. The 800 or 1600 will pay a month or a half months rent or mortgage and "what then?"

Franklin D Roosevelt closed the banks when the Bank owners said he couldn't. We need someone to clean house on Wall Street and in the Corporate Executive world and divide the money evenly and fairly. Before this recession there were already tens of millions of people in poverty, so who is it a recession for now? Now the recession is moving up so a whole new set of tens of millions of people are feeling the pinch. TOO MUCH HOARDING AT THE TOP!

sorry, i know i'm writing alot but there is nobody that I feel that is gonna fix the real problem but if you want the most change go with

Obama/Edwards


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[Bulldogcakes]

The only person I heard addressing the real issue is Edwards, he spoke of the growing divide between rich and poor and seemed sincere about doing something about it.

http://www.marxists.org/romana/dictionar/l/img/lenin_vladimir_ilici.jpg

"Yes, fine man that Edwards! Big fan of his!"

[scottinnj]

Get ready because here it comes.

I work at a foundry

Does your boss over-eununciate his words and tries to lure you into his Prius?

[epo]

WELL WITH THE 800the govt gives you buy ammo for the race war when obama is elected.


K

You are seriously either the dumbest or the least funny person on this board.

[scottinnj]

too much wealth has been hoarded by the top 1 to 5%, and it is leaving the bottom bare.


Now that train of thought always scares the crap out of me. IT IS THEIR MONEY. They can hoard if if they want to. What people earn is theirs, and it is not the governments responsibility to decide who has too much and how much they have to "donate" to who the government decides has too little.

Nothing further. Just wanted to jump in with that one.

[scottinnj]

You are seriously either the dumbest or the least funny person on this board.

What, you criticize him, and my brilliance gets nothing? Come on dude, my stuff is board gold man!

[FUNKMAN]

What people earn is theirs

the CEO of Occidental Petroleum received a 170 million dollar retirement package. already a multi millionaire tell me exactly what work he did to earn 170 million dollars. what more did he do for the company than any other worker? please provide your details?

[epo]

Now that train of thought always scares the crap out of me. IT IS THEIR MONEY. They can hoard if if they want to. What people earn is theirs, and it is not the governments responsibility to decide who has too much and how much they have to "donate" to who the government decides has too little.

Nothing further. Just wanted to jump in with that one.

You are right that they can hoarde that money if they choose to, but only after they pay their fair tax like all other citizens.

That is where the division rises in America. Democrats believe in a progressive tax based upon income. The theory being that the greater you earn the higher percentage you pay. The higher earner is paying a greater percentage based upon an implied rate of return on his/her tax dollars.

Republicans would love a flat tax or a consumption tax, which puts a higher burden upon the poor.

The irony is that in America, the land that prides itself as a moral nation, is asking those with the least to bare a larger burden each year. Think about the morality of that.

I'll climb off my soapbox now.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

http://www.marxists.org/romana/dictionar/l/img/lenin_vladimir_ilici.jpg

"Yes, fine man that Edwards! Big fan of his!"


Another admirer of Edwards

http://www.megamonalisa.com/artworks/megamonalisa_karl-mona-marx.jpg

[high fly]

Don't forget, U.S. intelligence concluded bin Laden was pulling for Bush in 2004...

[FUNKMAN]

Don't forget, U.S. intelligence concluded bin Laden was pulling for Bush in 2004...

pulling his pud like these other bush lovers...

[keithy_19]

Granted, they'll have bigger fish to fry; like NUCULEAR ZOMBIE hordes and all.

It'll be a simpler time Fuzzy, a simpler time. :down:

[EffMeBoobs]

Don't sweat the fluctuations in your 401(k)s or IRAs until you're over 50. Just keep throwing what you can afford into them (every paycheck) and be invested in a diversified portfolio including a healthy % in international stocks.

I just opened up a 401k at work a few weeks ago and worked out my portfolio to be moderate as far as risk goes. Plus a decent percentage is in international stocks. I'm not too worried about it because at least I have something towards retirement rather than nothing.

[scottinnj]

the CEO of Occidental Petroleum received a 170 million dollar retirement package. already a multi millionaire tell me exactly what work he did to earn 170 million dollars. what more did he do for the company than any other worker? please provide your details?

If I was a shareholder, I would be going after the board with a torch and pitchfork. But it's their business, not the governments to see how he is compensated. Should the government regulate how much a ballplayer is paid? It affects what you pay to see the game, both at the park and on television. Should Congress tell A-Rod he didn't work hard enough for his salary?

[scottinnj]

You are right that they can hoarde that money if they choose to, but only after they pay their fair tax like all other citizens.

That is where the division rises in America. Democrats believe in a progressive tax based upon income. The theory being that the greater you earn the higher percentage you pay. The higher earner is paying a greater percentage based upon an implied rate of return on his/her tax dollars.

Republicans would love a flat tax or a consumption tax, which puts a higher burden upon the poor.

The irony is that in America, the land that prides itself as a moral nation, is asking those with the least to bare a larger burden each year. Think about the morality of that.

I'll climb off my soapbox now.



Can I jump on? Thanks dude. BTW, check your IM after this. I have a question about Obama support here in Jersey.

As much as I have considered the "flat tax" (I'm against a consumption tax) I would have to see it in action before I would support it. The model used in post-Soviet Russia hasn't worked out too well, but a lot of supporters of the flat tax point out the corruption in government that interferes with the flat tax working the way it should.

Over here, we do have a progressive tax. The rich do get taxed more then the poor percentage wise, and you can make an argument for closing some of the loopholes regarding deductions and such, but when a person who makes a 250,000 dollar salary receives a 10,000 dollar return vs. a person who makes 30,000 a year getting 500 to 1000 dollar return, it is just because the wealthier person paid more in taxes vs. the person who made less.

[FUNKMAN]

Can I jump on? Thanks dude. BTW, check your IM after this. I have a question about Obama support here in Jersey.

As much as I have considered the "flat tax" (I'm against a consumption tax) I would have to see it in action before I would support it. The model used in post-Soviet Russia hasn't worked out too well, but a lot of supporters of the flat tax point out the corruption in government that interferes with the flat tax working the way it should.

Over here, we do have a progressive tax. The rich do get taxed more then the poor percentage wise, and you can make an argument for closing some of the loopholes regarding deductions and such, but when a person who makes a 250,000 dollar salary receives a 10,000 dollar return vs. a person who makes 30,000 a year getting 500 to 1000 dollar return, it is just because the wealthier person paid more in taxes vs. the person who made less.

on CNN Warren Buffet stated that he has not paid income tax since he was 45 years old and it is set up where his children will never have to pay income tax.

just asking for my own education, how does this factor into the overall economy?

[scottinnj]

on CNN Warren Buffet stated that he has not paid income tax since he was 45 years old and it is set up where his children will never have to pay income tax.

just asking for my own education, how does this factor into the overall economy?

Either Buffet is lying or he is cheating. Or he has separated himself from "income" which would explain his "generosity" when he gives to charities. Whatever it is, if he is not paying taxes like he is bragging, he should be investigated. After all, the money he has made came from somewhere, I can understand some of it being made in tax free shelters like everyone else, but he didn't run Coca-Cola for free.

[King Hippos Bandaid]

you guys are gonna still buy cruises

right

[epo]

Over here, we do have a progressive tax. The rich do get taxed more then the poor percentage wise, and you can make an argument for closing some of the loopholes regarding deductions and such, but when a person who makes a 250,000 dollar salary receives a 10,000 dollar return vs. a person who makes 30,000 a year getting 500 to 1000 dollar return, it is just because the wealthier person paid more in taxes vs. the person who made less.

I seriously don't care about the actual return the taxpayer gets in the spring, but rather I care about the rate they are investing in our nation. The return should reflect negatively or positively the investment that individual has made towards our nation well-being.

Now don't get me started on corporate taxes.....that will get me pissy.

[FUNKMAN]

on CNN Warren Buffet stated that he has not paid income tax since he was 45 years old and it is set up where his children will never have to pay income tax.

just asking for my own education, how does this factor into the overall economy?

Either Buffet is lying or he is cheating. Or he has separated himself from "income" which would explain his "generosity" when he gives to charities. Whatever it is, if he is not paying taxes like he is bragging, he should be investigated. After all, the money he has made came from somewhere, I can understand some of it being made in tax free shelters like everyone else, but he didn't run Coca-Cola for free.

he wasn't bragging. he actually seems like a 'down to earth' person along with his children who i've seen on various interviews. it was more that he was making people aware of what can be done with money...

[high fly]

It should be interesting to see how they blame this recession on Clinton.........

[scottinnj]

I seriously don't care about the actual return the taxpayer gets in the spring, but rather I care about the rate they are investing in our nation. The return should reflect negatively or positively the investment that individual has made towards our nation well-being.

Now don't get me started on corporate taxes.....that will get me pissy.


So if you are talking about tax rates, the top tier gets taxed at about 35%. So if a person makes (cue scary music) http://www.obsessedwithfilm.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/drevil_million_dollars.thumbnail.jpgONE MIIILLIOON DOLLARS!!! he/she would give to the government (before deductions) 350,000 dollars.

Is that what you are talking about?

[epo]

So if you are talking about tax rates, the top tier gets taxed at about 35%. So if a person makes (cue scary music) http://www.obsessedwithfilm.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/drevil_million_dollars.thumbnail.jpgONE MIIILLIOON DOLLARS!!! he/she would give to the government (before deductions) 350,000 dollars.

Is that what you are talking about?

In a way yes, but in my drunken rambling last night I didnt' explain myself very well. My true concern is "rate of return" per the rate of taxation.

[Bulldogcakes]

on CNN Warren Buffet stated that he has not paid income tax since he was 45 years old and it is set up where his children will never have to pay income tax.

just asking for my own education, how does this factor into the overall economy?

Thats because he has been a self empolyed investor most of his adult life. Investors dont recieve a salary, they collect dividends and/or realize profits when they sell a stock. He was probably just bitching again about the cap gains rate being lowered, but I won't get into that here. As far as his children go, they are executors of trust(s) he has set up for them. Much of what those trusts do is give away the money he's earned, so they're subject to different rules as well.

Ask him whether or not he (or his company Berkshire Hathaway) has paid any taxes on his investments, and the answer will be he's paid billions.

[FUNKMAN]

Thats because he has been a self empolyed investor most of his adult life. Investors dont recieve a salary, they collect dividends and/or realize profits when they sell a stock. He was probably just bitching again about the cap gains rate being lowered, but I won't get into that here. As far as his children go, they are executors of trust(s) he has set up for them. Much of what those trusts do is give away the money he's earned, so they're subject to different rules as well.

Ask him whether or not he (or his company Berkshire Hathaway) has paid any taxes on his investments, and the answer will be he's paid billions.

as i stated earlier he was not "bitching" in the least. he was educating the viewers and the interviewer. so what you are saying is he paid billions in taxes on investments which has to mean he has made much more billions in profit. i understand capitalism and I don't like suggesting what to do with anyone's money, nobody likes it. but what are your solutions and answers for all the millions of people in poverty, many with no healthcare. many who look for good employment with a good salary with decent benefits but are unable to find them. it's not just very poor people, it's college grads, it's middle-age people who were out-sourced or laid off due to a corporation meeting a bottom-line?

can't you agree that a corporation meeting that 'bottom-line' is what is putting billions of dollars into Warren's pocket? i know it sounds like a wussy statement but it's "just not fair" because most corporations will make a good profit without reducing staff and cutting medical benefits. but at the words of an "analyst" it is not good enough. this is the "wall street system" and it is of great benefit to a few

with regard to the many people who have been unable to handle their mortgages, is it a surprise when people are being out-sourced, laid off,having their benefits reduced, while their taxes increase, the cost of medical procedures and prescriptions increase.

you know why the gov't is working with them and reducing their interest rates, because who the heck is gonna buy these homes? the way I see it is the system is shooting itself in the foot now. they are leaving the bottom bare but that bottom is what runs the machine. supposedly 2/3rds of the economy is the consumer. in simple terms too many people at the top have taken too much which directly hurts the bottom people who can't afford to pay their mortgages or buy goods.

so what's the solution?

[scottinnj]

you guys are gonna still buy cruises

right

I have a time share. Unless you can figure out a way so I can trade a week at Orlando for one of your cruises

[scottinnj]

My true concern is "rate of return" per the rate of taxation.


Don't understand, but sounds interesting. Please explain.

[epo]

What the Bush Administration could use now is a gardner. Someone to make sure the roots are sound so that when spring comes, we can see the flowers. I nominate:

http://conservativehome.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/chancey_gardner.jpg

[Bulldogcakes]

Confidence Plunges, Inflation Rate Soars (http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080226/economy.html?.v=12)

WASHINGTON (AP) -- In more bad economic news, consumer confidence and home prices posted sharp declines while higher costs for such basics as food, energy and medicine left wholesale inflation rising at a pace unseen since late 1981.

Over the past 12 months, wholesale prices rose by 7.4 percent, the largest yearly gain since late 1981. Analysts warned consumers to brace for more bad inflation news with crude oil prices rising to records above $100 per barrel and with more evidence that the prolonged jump in energy prices is starting to break out into more widespread price problems.

Meanwhile, the New York-based Conference Board reported that its confidence index fell to 75.0 in February, down from a revised January reading of 87.3. The drop was far below what analysts had forecast and put the index at its lowest level since February 2003, a period that reflected anxiety in the leadup to the Iraq war.

A third report showed that home prices, measured by the S&P/Case-Shiller Index, dropped by 8.9 percent in the fourth quarter of last year, compared with the same period in 2006, the steepest decline in the 20-year history of the index.




This is the worst of all worlds, ecomony wise. It has the potential to return us to the stagflation of the mid 70's. China and other fast growing economies are driving up all sorts of commodities, while the US economy sinks into recession. The Fed is powerless to fix this, lowering interest rates will spark further inflation and raising them will choke off economic growth. Their hands are pretty much tied, unless they pull a 1980 Paul Volker and pretty much stop printing money. That will deepen the recession, but eventually straighten things out. Bad, bad news.

In my own business, I see prices skyrocketing in all sorts of areas. I've had 2 price increases in the past 2 years and I'm looking at another if this keeps up.

[Bulldogcakes]

The Federal Reserve's rescue has failed (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2008/03/03/ccview103.xml)



The verdict is in. The Fed's emergency rate cuts in January have failed to halt the downward spiral towards a full-blown debt deflation. Much more drastic action will be needed.

Yields on two-year US Treasuries plummeted to 1.63pc on Friday in a flight to safety, foretelling financial winter.

The debt markets are freezing ever deeper, a full eight months into the crunch. Contagion is spreading into the safest pockets of the US credit universe.

It is hard to imagine a more plain-vanilla outfit than the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, which manages bridges, bus terminals, and airports.

The authority is a public body, backed by the two states. Yet it had to pay 20pc rates in February after the near closure of the $330bn (£166m) "term-auction" market. It had originally expected to pay 4.3pc, but that was aeons ago in financial time.

"I never thought I would see anything like this in my life," said James Steele, an HSBC economist in New York.


While I think he's being a bit dramatic, its safe to say we're in a recession.

[scottinnj]

The Federal Reserve's rescue has failed (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2008/03/03/ccview103.xml)



While I think he's being a bit dramatic, its safe to say we're in a recession.

http://dirtydogstink.com/blog/content/images/King_of_the_Hill_alley.jpg

Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep.

[TeeBone]

I just opened up a 401k at work a few weeks ago and worked out my portfolio to be moderate as far as risk goes. Plus a decent percentage is in international stocks. I'm not too worried about it because at least I have something towards retirement rather than nothing.
Slow and steady, Effeme.
Good Work.

[TheMojoPin]

Slow and steady, Effeme.
Good Work.

True. I always feel a little less stressed when I get those 401k reports.

[Bulldogcakes]

Gold sets record on dollar, futures hit $1,000 (http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/080313/markets_precious.html?.v=7)

LONDON (Reuters) - Spot gold prices hit an all-time peak in Europe on Thursday as a dollar slump and inflation fears prompted investors to look for safe-haven assets.
Spot gold rose as high as $999.90 an ounce and was at $991.00/991.80 at 2:15 p.m EDT (1815 GMT), compared with $981.90/982.70 late in New York on Wednesday.


This sparked buying of U.S. gold futures, which extended a record-breaking advance across the $1,000-an-ounce threshold. Analysts said spot prices could soon reach that level as well.



"I think there is more upside for gold and generally the precious metal complex because the Fed is going to be delivering a very negative real interest rate environment and that is great for gold," said Michael Lewis, global head of commodities research at Deutsche Bank.

The dollar fell below the key 100 yen mark for the first time in over a decade, and to fresh record lows versus the euro, on deepening worries over the U.S. economy entering a recession.

"Gold is interesting because it also suggests that there are inflationary pressures out there in the world economy," said Chris Iggo, strategist at AXA Investments.

"Arguably, you're getting into bubble conditions for some of the commodities ... I can't see it ending any time soon, that's the problem. As long as the Fed's continuing to ease and the dollar's weak it's going to push up commodity prices further."

A weaker dollar makes gold cheaper for holders of other currencies and often lifts bullion demand. The metal is also generally seen as a hedge against oil-led inflation.


Gold is the ultimate rush to safety, with inflationary implications as well. This looks more and more every day like the late 1970s stagflation. It's pretty clear the economy is tanking, now the only question is how deep and how long.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Bear Stearns tanked today big time. Now the Fed and JP Morgan are loaning Bear money in order for them to keep afloat. There is talk about Bear being bought


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080314/ap_on_bi_ge/fed_credit_crisis

[epo]

Bear Stearns tanked today big time. Now the Fed and JP Morgan are loaning Bear money in order for them to keep afloat. There is talk about Bear being bought


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080314/ap_on_bi_ge/fed_credit_crisis

It appears that JP Morgan Chase is buying Bear Stearns for a 93% discount at $2/share for a total of $250 million dollars. Link to story here. (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/16/business/16cnd-bear.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin)

This is a weird economic time.

[Zorro]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120571194513840285.html??mod=djemalertNEWS

Are the wheels coming off the economy?

[Bulldogcakes]

It appears that JP Morgan Chase is buying Bear Stearns for a 93% discount at $2/share for a total of $250 million dollars. Link to story here. (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/16/business/16cnd-bear.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin)

This is a weird economic time.

It certainly is. Bear Stearns was around $50-60 about a week ago. I think $2 a share buys their midtown building and the office furniture.

Bear Stearns weathered the vagaries of the markets for 85 years, surviving the Depression and a dozen recessions only to meet its end in the rapidly unfolding credit crisis now afflicting the American economy.


Bernake is in a tough spot, but he has been very haphazard in how he's handled this downturn. He has consistently been behind the curve and constantly caught with his pants down time and time again. Lowering rates ON A SUNDAY tells you he's worried about what might happen Monday.

[Bulldogcakes]

The deal is a major coup for Mr. Dimon, one of the shrewdest players on Wall Street. Over the last few years, focused intensely on cutting costs, improving technology, and integrating the JPMorgan’s disparate operations. But he also has been adamant about preparing the company to be financially strong in advance of a down in the economy or credit environment. That way, just as he often did with Sanford I. Weill in creating Citigroup, JPMorgan could pounce when competitors became weak.

For JPMorgan, one of the few major banks to emerge relatively unscathed from the subprime mortgage crisis, the deal provides a major entry to prime brokerage, which provides financing to hedge funds, a source of enormous growth over the past decade, but a slowing business amid the market’s turndown.

Bear Stearns would also give JPMorgan a much bigger presence in the mortgage securities business, which the bank executives say they are committed in spite of them recent market downturn.



I couldn't let this part pass. For all of those who rail constantly against "The Rich", this is how many people/firms get there. By being smarter than their competitors, staying away from overhyped trends that make no business sense, and then waiting for the bubbles to burst (as bubbles always do) and taking advantage and buying assets for pennies on the dollar. This requires the ability to recognize a bubble as they're happening. Housing prices don't double every 3-4 years, this was an obvious aberration which was unsustainable. Anyone with any business sense should have seen that all along.

The housing bubble was also created in large part due to Fed lowering rates after 9/11. The Fed rate was around 1%, while inflation was around 3%. Basically, the Fed was paying you to take their money. Which of course people did. I hope that Bernake doesn't over react and cause tomorrows economic train wreck (Inflation? Soaring commodities?) by doing something similar. But it looks like he is going down that road already. The Treasury Dept should be shoring up the weak US Dollar rather than have the Fed create another bubble.

[FUNKMAN]

it's a tight spot for the fed, all these empty houses have to start selling. they are creating tougher standards to obtain a mortgage and the interest rates have gone up recently which is not a good formula for getting houses sold.

what nobody talks about, nobody in washington, nobody on cnbc, is that people need jobs, sustainable incomes. jobs that either provide health benefits or pay enough where people/family's can pay for their healthcare along with their rent/mortgage, food, and other cost of living expenses...

who will be buying all these empty homes?

[Zorro]

it's a tight spot for the fed, all these empty houses have to start selling. they are creating tougher standards to obtain a mortgage and the interest rates have gone up recently which is not a good formula for getting houses sold.

what nobody talks about, nobody in washington, nobody on cnbc, is that people need jobs, sustainable incomes. jobs that either provide health benefits or pay enough where people/family's can pay for their healthcare along with their rent/mortgage, food, and other cost of living expenses...

who will be buying all these empty homes?

You haven't been listening to Lou Dobbs. He's on this shit almost everyday. I just can't figure out if he's a right wing wacko, blaming immigrants for the countries problems or a real populist believing that we've let the corporations run rampant

[The Jays]

Should we be worried about, not a recession, but a depression? It seems pretty likely now. I wonder how this all shakes out.

[Alice S. Fuzzybutt]

I'm a proofreader and all my freelance gigs are now being sent to India and Israel.

I'm stocking up on tuna, pasta, and peanut butter when there's a sale.

[keithy_19]

I'm a proofreader and all my freelance gigs are now being sent to India and Israel.


:sad:

[Bulldogcakes]

Should we be worried about, not a recession, but a depression? It seems pretty likely now. I wonder how this all shakes out.

The last Depression we had was before the Federal Reserve existed. They became the lender of last resort, and acted appropriately yesterday by bailing out Bear Stearns. Had they not stepped in, Bear Stearns would have went Chapter 11, their notes would be worthless, and everyone on Wall Street who did business with them (which is everyone) would have either taken massive losses or been pulled down with them. By the Fed stepping in and JP Morgan buying them out, their transactions will be covered and life will go on without Bear Stearns. Most of the Bear employees unfortunately will likely be laid off. If their retirement packages were tied up in Bear stocks, then they should hold onto them and wait to see if they recover. I suspect they will, and fairly quickly. Many on Wall St think JP got a steal which will pay off once the economy rebounds.

The Fed stepping in made JP willing to make a deal. The Fed made the JP Morgan deal sense. If any of this happened 100 years ago Bear would have went under, a panic would have spread across Wall St and there would be a run on the banks. None of that happened today.

I would suggest you worry about something more realistic.

http://blogs.westword.com/latestword/weekly%20world%20news.JPG

Like this.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

The Dow, Nasdaq and S&P all were up big today, this was due to a 75 basis pt cut by the fed. Also the markets reacted positively when Lehman and Goldman came out with earnings that beat expectations, I was watching Kudlow on CNBC and it was tossed around that maybe we did finally hit bottom and it could be a start of a recovery, but I also am cautious because wild swings in the market happen when theres instability.