wow, more military idiocy

[earthbrown]

Cliff notes.

Sniper group in Iraq, up most of 72 previous hours.

Civilian stumbles on location.

Civilian begins to yell, possibly attempting to warn insurgents

Sgt Hensley, orders Sgt Vela, to shoot the man, and testifies that he would have done it himself, had Vela hesitated.

Sgt. Hensley also admits in trial to fabricating the cover-up story.

Sgt. Hensley acquitted on murder charges.

Sgt. Vela, going to Leavenworth for 10 years, depending on outcome of the appeal.

How can we sustain this idiocy?

1. I feel this killing was justified, kill one to possibly save a squad.

2. Why are ROE in Iraq so fucked up that they have to Lie about the facts, instead of saying...."civilian compromised safety of squad, civilian was prevented from further endangering squad, via deadly force."

3. Why do we see "grunts", getting court-marshaled for a few deaths, but commanders and planners that misplace a bomb get off scott-free.

4. If we are going to continue to prosecute this stupid shit, than we need to just leave Iraq, it is bullshit, I would rather take a loss than have another serviceman spend time in prison, for doing what he felt necessary. This was not a blatant murder, it was a decision made under pressure and mental duress due to sleep depravity.

Fuck this war, and all its bullshit, like 10 year sentences for panties on a head....WTF, they chop heads of prisoners off, we put panties on them and then send the people to prison for 10 years!!!!


http://www.kpvi.com/Global/story.asp?S=7848267

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,330223,00.html


K

[TheMojoPin]

Fuck this war, and all its bullshit, like 10 year sentences for panties on a head....

HAW-HAW! YEAH! That's all it was for!

Why do the most blatant trolls infect my forum? It's either anti-show staff member threads or dreck in the political forum.

[earthbrown]

HAW-HAW! YEAH! That's all it was for!


would you atleast agree that the "prisoner abuses", of Abu Graib were minor compared to what happens to our soldiers who are captured? We are fairly humane to our POW's.


K

[TheMojoPin]

would you atleast agree that the "prisoner abuses", of Abu Graib were minor compared to what happens to our soldiers who are captured? We are fairly humane to our POW's.

So if I'm arrested for assalting someone, I shouldn't be punished bcause other people are out there actually murdering people?

Don't try and flip this. Nobody is defending what the terrorists have done.

[Yerdaddy]

You've presented the defense's case as the complete truth and you're upset that the military jury didn't accept it as such.

1. What was the prosecution's story of the facts based on the evidence? Did it make more sense than the defense?

2. Are you saying the military justice system is biased against soldiers? Why would that be?

3. You never mentioned that these sniper teams had been carrying incriminating items to plant on Iraqis that they killed that turned out not to be insurgents. They admitted to planting an AK-47 on this guy.

4. Their story makes no fucking sense in so many elements. They say the father and son stumbled on their positions and they detained them. Then suspected insurgents approached and, to avoid detection they released the son. The father started kicking up a fuss so they shot him to prevent him from giving thier position away.

a) They let the son go to avoid detection? Makes no sense.

b) They fired a gun to avoid detection? Makes even less sense.

c) Seems to me zip-tieing the guy and stuffing a rag in his mouth would have been both within the rules of engagement and a whole lot less likely to blow thier cover than shooting the guy.

I'm guessing the evidence pointed out that their story was bullshit and the military jury believed the prosecution and convicted them. That's the most likely scenario based on the evidence I've seen.

And I agree with you that officers who order these things are getting away with it. I think that comes from the political leadership in the Pentagon and it's culture of impunity. The higher up the prosecutions - the more embarassing to the White House. And so I blame you for accepting and defending this White House's constant declaration that it is above the law. You, and the rest of America's Republicans, have never held them accountable for anything they've done. Much of what they've done is order the military to violate the Military Code of Justice as well as US and international law. In order to do this and keep it from coming back to the White House and Pentagon, they've made it clear that investigations and criminal charges are not to reach very far above the rank of Private. Every publicized incident of military wrongdoing - from Abu Ghraib on down - has pointed to this trend. You didn't care then, and you don't really care now.

[foodcourtdruide]

would you atleast agree that the "prisoner abuses", of Abu Graib were minor compared to what happens to our soldiers who are captured? We are fairly humane to our POW's.


K

This is such crazy logic. So, if you are picked up by the police for passing a red light and they beat you and break your leg, it is ok, becuase it pales in comparison to where the punishment is death?

You CANNOT believe what you just posted above.

[MellySmelly]

Kill them all and let God sort them out.

1000 fucking arabs aren't worth the life of one American soldier.

[ChrisTheCop]

This is such crazy logic. So, if you are picked up by the police for passing a red light and they beat you and break your leg, it is ok, becuase it pales in comparison to where the punishment is death?



I'm canceling my trip to wherever that is.

[HBox]

Kill them all and let God sort them out.

1000 fucking arabs aren't worth the life of one American soldier.

I wonder why they hate us?

[MellySmelly]

I wonder why they hate us?

You're actually going to defend the people that cut the clits of of women so they can't enjoy sex? Fuck them.

[HBox]

You're actually going to defend the people that cut the clits of of women so they can't enjoy sex? Fuck them.

You're right. Everyone over there is that one stereotype you have in your mind.

[FUNKMAN]

You're actually going to defend the people that cut the clits of of women so they can't enjoy sex? Fuck them.


but it's not ALL of the Arabic people. don't be so angry...

look at this country, not too long ago a woman could be beaten and abused and basically had to get killed in order for a man to be put in jail

some men can be real assholes toward women no matter what country they live in...

[MellySmelly]

You're right. Everyone over there is that one stereotype you have in your mind.

Just the ones bombing the fuck out of our soldiers. I doubt that you know anything about that.

[MellySmelly]

The same mother fuckers that strap bombs to people with Downs Syndrome. Fucking move there if you love them so much.

[HBox]

You're actually going to defend the people that cut the clits of of women so they can't enjoy sex? Fuck them.

I'm just going to stop this right. I knew more about the world at age 7 than you will ever know if you studied non-stop for the rest of your life.

And before you say anything, I hope you aren't a liar this time and really don't come back.

[MellySmelly]

I used to be married to a Nam vet. Nuff said. Nothing against you personally Hbox, but I really don't understand why you are defending these mother fuckers. Where the hell were you on 9/11?

[Snacks]

Kill them all and let God sort them out.

1000 fucking arabs aren't worth the life of one American soldier.

and they should feel this way about Americans, right? We are the ones who invaded a sovereign nation, right? We are the ones who destroyed their country when they didnt ask for help, right? We are the ones that used the fear of terrorism to kill a leader that we didnt like who has never done anything directly against America, right? We are the ones who did business with this country in the 80's, but now they are bad, bad people, right?


Its people like you that make these people hate us. Our lives arent worth anymore then theirs. Its shit like this that even happens in America. The rich and powerful think the poor are deserving or "worth" what they are. Thats horse shit. Please, go eat a sandwich and watch a movie.

[Snacks]

I used to be married to a Nam vet. Nuff said. Nothing against you personally Hbox, but I really don't understand why you are defending these mother fuckers. Where the hell were you on 9/11?

So what, we had no business in that war either. thats why we lost.

Why dont you spew some hate towards the jerkoffs who actualy create wars and send our soldiers to die for their bullshit?

[MellySmelly]

So what, we had no business in that war either. thats why we lost.

Why dont you spew some hate towards the jerkoffs who actualy create wars and send our soldiers to die for their bullshit?

I don't want any of our soldiers to die. I wish that they were all home.

[MellySmelly]

Please, go eat a sandwich and watch a movie.

I don't watch too many movies, but I do see a lot of members of my family go off to war. My brother-in-law is in charge of the 2nd Marine Division and is serving in Iraq for your sorry ass right now.

[Boricua1]

Melly,
I understand your anger towards the people in Iraq. But at the same time you have to understand that if we start killing arabs it will make us no better than them. I've been there and also question the rules of engagements, but I know that without them we will be considered terrorists. I'm really sorry to say this but when somebody goes into the military is to fight wars, whether the war is justified or not.

[A.J.]

You're actually going to defend the people that cut the clits of of women so they can't enjoy sex? Fuck them.

That's Africa. The Arabs keep the women covered and segregated.

[foodcourtdruide]

That's Africa. The Arabs keep the women covered and segregated.

I agree with AJ, I've always heard about females getting circumsized in Africa, never the middle east, but I could be wrong.

Melly, we were all angry after 9/11, but getting mad at all arabs for 9/11 would be like getting mad at all awkward white people after the Oklahoma City bombings. Your hatred is unjustified and it comes off as ignorant and racist.

[foodcourtdruide]

I'm canceling my trip to wherever that is.

lol, yeah. it was late, i couldn't think of a realistic example so i went with completely absurd.

[TheMojoPin]

YEAH, THOSE DUMB ARABS!!!

Hee!

[earthbrown]

Kill them all and let God sort them out.

1000 fucking arabs aren't worth the life of one American soldier.

I agree to a point, but I dont agree with simply killing them all...

You've presented the defense's case as the complete truth and you're upset that the military jury didn't accept it as such.

1. What was the prosecution's story of the facts based on the evidence? Did it make more sense than the defense?

2. Are you saying the military justice system is biased against soldiers? Why would that be?

3. You never mentioned that these sniper teams had been carrying incriminating items to plant on Iraqis that they killed that turned out not to be insurgents. They admitted to planting an AK-47 on this guy.

4. Their story makes no fucking sense in so many elements. They say the father and son stumbled on their positions and they detained them. Then suspected insurgents approached and, to avoid detection they released the son. The father started kicking up a fuss so they shot him to prevent him from giving thier position away.

a) They let the son go to avoid detection? Makes no sense.

b) They fired a gun to avoid detection? Makes even less sense.

c) Seems to me zip-tieing the guy and stuffing a rag in his mouth would have been both within the rules of engagement and a whole lot less likely to blow thier cover than shooting the guy.

I'm guessing the evidence pointed out that their story was bullshit and the military jury believed the prosecution and convicted them. That's the most likely scenario based on the evidence I've seen.

And I agree with you that officers who order these things are getting away with it. I think that comes from the political leadership in the Pentagon and it's culture of impunity. The higher up the prosecutions - the more embarassing to the White House. And so I blame you for accepting and defending this White House's constant declaration that it is above the law. You, and the rest of America's Republicans, have never held them accountable for anything they've done. Much of what they've done is order the military to violate the Military Code of Justice as well as US and international law. In order to do this and keep it from coming back to the White House and Pentagon, they've made it clear that investigations and criminal charges are not to reach very far above the rank of Private. Every publicized incident of military wrongdoing - from Abu Ghraib on down - has pointed to this trend. You didn't care then, and you don't really care now.

You may be right, i never saw a story out of the 10 or so I read that made reference to the "victim's" child, but I think that is a scenario that may be true, and makes the story weird.

As for the shot, in a war area, gunshots are commonplace and probably less conspicuous than yelling. I have also been told that in a group of snipers like this, there is more than likely a few silenced weapons, so gun shot noise might not be in play.

Planting of weapons is odd, but I guess it is done to protect themselves in cases of mistakes or bad judgment. I would be scared to be a sniper, knowing I might be held responsible, criminally, if they fuckup...they might go to prison...

K

[TheMojoPin]

I agree to a point, but I dont agree with simply killing them all...

Then how can you only "agree to a point" on a statement like "kill them all," but then you claim to not agree with "simply killing them all?" There's no wiggle room in her statement.

[underdog]

That's Africa. The Arabs keep the women covered and segregated.

They're all the same. Don't you know that?

[earthbrown]

Then how can you only "agree to a point" on a statement like "kill them all," but then you claim to not agree with "simply killing them all?" There's no wiggle room in her statement.

I agree 1000 arabs is less valuable to me than 1 american soldier....but disagree that killing them all is a viable solution.


K

[Snacks]

I agree 1000 arabs is less valuable to me than 1 american soldier....but disagree that killing them all is a viable solution.


K

and why is that?

[earthbrown]

Then how can you only "agree to a point" on a statement like "kill them all," but then you claim to not agree with "simply killing them all?" There's no wiggle room in her statement.

I agree 1000 arabs is less valuable to me than 1 american soldier....but disagree that killing them all is a viable solution.


K

[Kevin]

I agree 1000 arabs is less valuable to me than 1 american soldier....but disagree that killing them all is a viable solution.


K

Do you ever stop and think and see how stupid the shit you write is? Why are they worth more? Because they happend to randomly be born In the US? Like we had a choice to where we are born. What do you know about those Arabs? Do you know who they are? Maybe the US soilder is a total fuck head and the Arab is a good person.. Do you understand how incredibly racist and stupid you are?

[foodcourtdruide]

Do you ever stop and think and see how stupid the shit you write is? Why are they worth more? Because they happend to randomly be born In the US? Like we had a choice to where we are born. What do you know about those Arabs? Do you know who they are? Maybe the US soilder is a total fuck head and the Arab is a good person.. Do you understand how incredibly racist and stupid you are?

I was thinking the same exact thing, but I kept erasing my words because I didn't want to end up cursing and calling him names. However, I think even he'd have to agree that he is racist.

[Snacks]

Do you ever stop and think and see how stupid the shit you write is? Why are they worth more? Because they happend to randomly be born In the US? Like we had a choice to where we are born. What do you know about those Arabs? Do you know who they are? Maybe the US soilder is a total fuck head and the Arab is a good person.. Do you understand how incredibly racist and stupid you are?

kevin do not let this pussy bother you. he knows nothing, he hides behind the Internet. but like I said before he is probably the biggest pussy and would never spew this shit in the face of anyone of us.

[underdog]

kevin do let this pussy bother you.

Worst advice, ever.

Kevin, don't let this pussy bother you.

[Snacks]

Worst advice, ever.

Kevin, don't let this pussy bother you.

what he said. you know it is what it is.

[TheMojoPin]

Guys, he's not attacking anyone on the board directly, so please don't do that to him. You can argue his posts without diving right into insults.

[underdog]

Guys, he's not attacking anyone on the board directly, so please don't do that to him. You can argue his posts without diving right into insults.

I wasn't trying to attack him, I was just making fun of Snacks.

[Kevin]

kevin do not let this pussy bother you. he knows nothing, he hides behind the Internet. but like I said before he is probably the biggest pussy and would never spew this shit in the face of anyone of us.

I have to respect the person before he or she can bother me. I was just pointing out how just asinine people sound.

[Snacks]

I wasn't trying to attack him, I was just making fun of Snacks.

lol why me?

But to be extremely serious for a moment.

I was going after him directly because he talks about people that cant defend themselves. If you want to ban me or put me on vacation for telling someone they are a pussy then do so. Banning me for calling someone out for constantly talking shit about people himself makes no sense. I dont understand why its a problem when people cant say something directly to another member? Why does everyone on this board have to kiss ass but when someone has a problem they cant go directly at him?

I wont apologize for calling our shit brown. Would you rather me call him out for the next big ass night of fights and prove he is a pussy in front of ron, fez and the rest of the board? Then I will do that as well. I hate when people hide behind the net.

[underdog]

lol why me?

You were an easy target. :tongue:

[earthbrown]

Do you ever stop and think and see how stupid the shit you write is? Why are they worth more? Because they happend to randomly be born In the US? Like we had a choice to where we are born. What do you know about those Arabs? Do you know who they are? Maybe the US soilder is a total fuck head and the Arab is a good person.. Do you understand how incredibly racist and stupid you are?

Yes, maybe, but the American Soldier, fuckhead or not, is fundamentally protecting me and my country. And above all the single soldier is only doing what he is told, and I dont want to see his life end and family destroyed. I dont know these dead Iraqis or Arabs, I dont have a connection to them, I could care less...

I am not so ignorant to think the average enemy doesnot think the same way, he too has pride and sympathy for his fellow countrymans plight.

I feel however that inorder to support the troops, I must want each and every one of them to return home safe.

I no longer believe in this war, and now see it for what it is, which imho is to enrich the military-industrial complex, thus making many people on all levels of government and both parties more $$$, see many of the most prominent republicans and democrats, have some financial interest in this war continuing.

I cant justify it to you, but I dont have to, I value american life more.


K

[Kevin]

Yes, maybe, but the American Soldier, fuckhead or not, is fundamentally protecting me and my country. And above all the single soldier is only doing what he is told, and I dont want to see his life end and family destroyed. I dont know these dead Iraqis or Arabs, I dont have a connection to them, I could care less...

Please tell me how he is protecting you right now? Have we been invaded... NOOOOO.. So... If someone in your family gets murderd, i get to say fuck him, i did not know him, who gives a shit.. You would not be botherd?



I feel however that inorder to support the troops, I must want each and every one of them to return home safe.

Who doesnt? But to say 1 is for more than 1000 others is just asinine.

I no longer believe in this war, and now see it for what it is, which imho is to enrich the military-industrial complex, thus making many people on all levels of government and both parties more $$$, see many of the most prominent republicans and democrats, have some financial interest in this war continuing.

So telll me again, how are these soilders protecting your country??

I cant justify it to you, but I dont have to, I value american life more.

You cant justify beacuse it can't be justified. Because its stupid.

[foodcourtdruide]

Guys, he's not attacking anyone on the board directly, so please don't do that to him. You can argue his posts without diving right into insults.

Is calling someone racist an insult?

[earthbrown]

Please tell me how he is protecting you right now? Have we been invaded... NOOOOO.. So... If someone in your family gets murderd, i get to say fuck him, i did not know him, who gives a shit.. You would not be botherd?



Who doesnt? But to say 1 is for more than 1000 others is just asinine.



So telll me again, how are these soilders protecting your country??


You cant justify beacuse it can't be justified. Because its stupid.

1. If you dont have a connection to someone, you dont have to care....why do you think there are so many jokes about dead people? You can care less or poke fun at any situation...I thought the thing with "Connersswincoach" of paltalk was funny a while ago, why, cause although I had seen him on paltalk and talked to him many times it did not directly effect me.

2. I dont necessarily mean 1 for 1000, it could be more like 1 for 1,000,000. I value american soldier life more than all the women and childrens lives in all of Iraq, afganistan, and all of those shithole places.

3. I dont think they are "Directly" protecting the country, however we have not been attacked since 9-11, and I attribute that to Al Queda(sp) being on its heals and most of them being involved in the fighting. Hard to run training camps in an area patrolled by us forces.

It is the job of the armed forces to serve te country anyway the commander and chief see fit....so yes they are protecting the country, if the president says so.

4. It can be justified, as anyone can justify anything. Justification is in the eyes of the beholder, and I would sleep well at night knowing our men could use their discretion and not have to think twice about pulling the trigger.


Is calling someone racist an insult?

An insult is also arbitrary, some might be insulted by a comment not meant as an insult, while others may not be insulted by an intended insult.

K

[NortonRules]

So if I'm arrested for assalting someone, I shouldn't be punished bcause other people are out there actually murdering people?

Don't try and flip this. Nobody is defending what the terrorists have done.

panties on a head is not torture. it's not deplorable.

[NewYorkDragons80]

I agree with AJ, I've always heard about females getting circumsized in Africa, never the middle east, but I could be wrong.
I've heard of it in Saudi Arabia and maybe some conservative areas of Yemen, but that's definitely the exception

[Tenbatsuzen]

For what it's worth, the Taliban in Afghanistan did practice female genital mutilation.


I'm not saying Melly's right, but she was in the correct ballpark.

[Tenbatsuzen]

1. If you dont have a connection to someone, you dont have to care....why do you think there are so many jokes about dead people? You can care less or poke fun at any situation...I thought the thing with "Connersswincoach" of paltalk was funny a while ago, why, cause although I had seen him on paltalk and talked to him many times it did not directly effect me.

K


In case anyone was curious, that was the dude who capped his ex-girlfriend then killed himself.

[TheMojoPin]

panties on a head is not torture. it's not deplorable.

It wasn't "panties on a head."

[TheMojoPin]

3. I dont think they are "Directly" protecting the country, however we have not been attacked since 9-11, and I attribute that to Al Queda(sp) being on its heals and most of them being involved in the fighting. Hard to run training camps in an area patrolled by us forces.

Terrorism doesn't work that way. The inherrent failure of a "War on Terror" hinges on this mistaken perception of fighting "terror" as if it's a traditional or centralized enemy.

[NewYorkDragons80]

Terrorism doesn't work that way. The inherrent failure of a "War on Terror" hinges on this mistaken perception of fighting "terror" as if it's a traditional or centralized enemy.
Absolutely. I think War on Terror was used because we didn't want to say War on Islamic Fundamentalists. So instead we used War on Terror, which makes as much sense as a "War on Trench"

[TheMojoPin]

Absolutely. I think War on Terror was used because we didn't want to say War on Islamic Fundamentalists. So instead we used War on Terror, which makes as much sense as a "War on Trench"

A war on any kind of religion fundamentalism would still be ridiculous. It's not a "thing" you can fight with combat. Wars on poverty and drugs also sound equally as dumb. All of these "wars" serve only to boil down incredibly complex and longterm issues into shortsighted responses that do little to fix anything, and usually end up making things even worse down the line.

[NewYorkDragons80]

A war on any kind of religion fundamentalism would still be ridiculous. It's not a "thing" you can fight with combat. Wars on poverty and drugs also sound equally as dumb. All of these "wars" serve only to boil down incredibly complex and longterm issues into shortsighted responses that do little to fix anything, and usually end up making things even worse down the line.
Fascism
Means
War

[scottinnj]

Yes, maybe, but the American Soldier, fuckhead or not, is fundamentally protecting me and my country. And above all the single soldier is only doing what he is told, and I dont want to see his life end and family destroyed. I dont know these dead Iraqis or Arabs, I dont have a connection to them, I could care less...

Please tell me how he is protecting you right now? Have we been invaded... NOOOOO.. So... If someone in your family gets murderd, i get to say fuck him, i did not know him, who gives a shit.. You would not be botherd?



I feel however that inorder to support the troops, I must want each and every one of them to return home safe.

Who doesnt? But to say 1 is for more than 1000 others is just asinine.

I no longer believe in this war, and now see it for what it is, which imho is to enrich the military-industrial complex, thus making many people on all levels of government and both parties more $$$, see many of the most prominent republicans and democrats, have some financial interest in this war continuing.

So telll me again, how are these soilders protecting your country??

I cant justify it to you, but I dont have to, I value american life more.

You cant justify beacuse it can't be justified. Because its stupid.





Kevin, to go this far to justify your outlook on earthbrown is getting ridiculous. Of course to Americans, American soldiers are worth more. Just because they are doing something for the current administration you don't agree with, to write them off and equate them with terrorists who want to kill us, or that they are "no better" then the people they are trying to help because they got "lucky" with their place of birth.

[TheMojoPin]

Fascism
Means
War

I have no idea how this replies to my post. A general "war" on any ideaology is foolish, not feasable and ultimately unwinnable by any conventional sense of the word as long as the crux of our attack is a literal one trying to shoot and bomb ideas, philosophies ad emotions.

[NewYorkDragons80]

I have no idea how this replies to my post. A general "war" on any ideaology is foolish, not feasable and ultimately unwinnable by any conventional sense of the word as long as the crux of our attack is a literal one trying to shoot and bomb ideas, philosophies ad emotions.
I thought you would've got that one. It's an old school war cry from American interventionists in the 30s against Franco, Mussolini, and Hitler. The point is, no matter how much it might simplify a complex issue, it was the correct and only course to take.

[TheMojoPin]

I thought you would've got that one. It's an old school war cry from American interventionists in the 30s against Franco, Mussolini, and Hitler. The point is, no matter how much it might simplify a complex issue, it was the correct and only course to take.

But they ultimately succeeded because they were fought as actual combat wars against Germany, Japan and Italy, not a general "war on fascism." That's an unwinnable war in terms of combat, or at least one that would take a very, very, very, very, VERY long time. Ultimately the only example we hae on anything remotely close to winning a "war" on an ideaology is our "war against communism." By and large, our military strikes "against commies" have ended up failing or causing more trouble than they solve. Our non-combat approaches, however, have been infinitely more successful. "Fighting an ideaology can ultimately only be done with other ideaologies. Clearly, that's not as appealing because it's very drawn out, but in the end it's the most effective way to do it. You can't bomb an ideaology into submission. WW2 didn't "destroy fascism"...it defeated several fascist regimes.

[Kevin]

Yes, maybe, but the American Soldier, fuckhead or not, is fundamentally protecting me and my country. And above all the single soldier is only doing what he is told, and I dont want to see his life end and family destroyed. I dont know these dead Iraqis or Arabs, I dont have a connection to them, I could care less...

Please tell me how he is protecting you right now? Have we been invaded... NOOOOO.. So... If someone in your family gets murderd, i get to say fuck him, i did not know him, who gives a shit.. You would not be botherd?



I feel however that inorder to support the troops, I must want each and every one of them to return home safe.

Who doesnt? But to say 1 is for more than 1000 others is just asinine.

I no longer believe in this war, and now see it for what it is, which imho is to enrich the military-industrial complex, thus making many people on all levels of government and both parties more $$$, see many of the most prominent republicans and democrats, have some financial interest in this war continuing.

So telll me again, how are these soilders protecting your country??

I cant justify it to you, but I dont have to, I value american life more.

You cant justify beacuse it can't be justified. Because its stupid.





Kevin, to go this far to justify your outlook on earthbrown is getting ridiculous. Of course to Americans, American soldiers are worth more. Just because they are doing something for the current administration you don't agree with, to write them off and equate them with terrorists who want to kill us, or that they are "no better" then the people they are trying to help because they got "lucky" with their place of birth.

All i am stating is NOBODY's life is more important than anyone else's.. And that is EXACTLY why they think that American lives are worth more, because they were born here, If this Earthbrown charecter was born in Italy, he would think Italian lives are worth more than anyone.. Its thinking like that, that is one of the biggest problems this world faces.. NOBODY IS MORE IMPORTANT.

[scottinnj]

Absolutely. I think War on Terror was used because we didn't want to say War on Islamic Fundamentalists. So instead we used War on Terror, which makes as much sense as a "War on Trench"

A war on any kind of religion fundamentalism would still be ridiculous. It's not a "thing" you can fight with combat. Wars on poverty and drugs also sound equally as dumb. All of these "wars" serve only to boil down incredibly complex and longterm issues into shortsighted responses that do little to fix anything, and usually end up making things even worse down the line.


I think that since this is a new type of threat to the United States and Western Europe coming from a group of people who share an ideology instead of a border and country is why the game "name this war" seems to be so difficult.

We are fighting fascists, however not a fascist government.

We are fighting Islamic Fundamentalists, but we are not fighting the religion of Islam.

We aren't fighting a country, or a coalition of countries set upon conquering the world. We do have to fight in countries though, because this network of terrorism is spread around the world. But we do have to be wary of countries sympathetic towards their cause, or willing to help because the countries in question would like to see us defeated.

Make no mistake though. No matter what your political leaning is, left or right, these people want nothing less then to kill you. They do not want to negotiate and will do anything to see you dead and this country destroyed. Whatever we call this "war" it is a war nonetheless. How we fight and who leads us is open to opinion and criticism, however I have a hard time with criticism, apathy and second guessing of who is doing the actual fighting.

Which is why I like this board so much. No matter what this board's feelings are on the current leadership in the White House and on Capital Hill; I still see a strong patriotism here and unabashed love and support for our military men and women.

[earthbrown]

Who is equating them with terrorists? All i am stating is NOBODY's life is more important than anyone else's..

possibly at its clinical base, but in actuality to me an American soldier's life is more important.

Just like the FACT that all of us would value the life of a family member over someone else....I would take someones life without thinking, if I thought that person was going to harm my child, wife, self, or other friend or family member.

your adage that there is absolute equality in life is as ridiculous as anything....


CASE AND POINT.....

Your mother and father have been kidnapped by Nazis. The Nazis tell you they will rape and murder both of them if you dont kill a store owner who is funneling money to Al Queda...they send you a pistol, picture, and mapquest directions to the store....

What do you do??


K

[scottinnj]

Who is equating them with terrorists? All i am stating is NOBODY's life is more important than anyone else's.. And that is EXACTLY why they think that American lives are worth more, because they were born here, If this Earthbrown charecter was born in Italy, he would think Italian lives are worth more than anyone.. Its thinking like that, that is one of the biggest problems this world faces.. NOBODY IS MORE IMPORTANT.

Sorry Kev, I didn't mean "terrorists" I was going for the one soldier is worth more then 1000 Arabs. My bad. I looked back at my post and realized my mistake. You are right.

It's not that American lives are worth more morally or economically then an Italian or an Arab, of course that is crazy and goes against the concept that "all men are created equal"
I think where he is going is that our self interest and the stakes that we all share should lead us to lean more towards our soldiers then the interests of others in foreign lands. At one time in this war in Iraq, it was in our interest to support what the soldiers were doing because to pull out in an arbitrary way would lead to chaos in that country, and it wouldn't be in our interest to do that then return 5, 10, and 20 years later to continually fix a problem we decided to ignore now.
Now that we have seen that the Iraqi government is not stepping up to its obligations to govern its own people and provide the security they need to rebuild, it is now in our interest to support the soldiers in getting out because their lives are not worth propping up a country or government that does not seem to take charge of its own destiny. Enough of our "blood and treasure" has been spent on supporting these people, and now we have to say "enough is enough." That is support of the soldiers as much as supporting them when they are doing the fighting for us, whether we agree with the policy or not.

[scottinnj]

CASE AND POINT.....

Your mother and father have been kidnapped by Nazis. The Nazis tell you they will rape and murder both of them if you dont kill a store owner who is funneling money to Al Queda...they send you a pistol, picture, and mapquest directions to the store....

What do you do??


K


Wait a minute, what? You brought up an interesting point. Now be quiet and let the grownups hash this out. Where did you get that analogy from, a Captain America comic book? C'mon man!

[TheMojoPin]

I think that since this is a new type of threat to the United States and Western Europe coming from a group of people who share an ideology instead of a border and country is why the game "name this war" seems to be so difficult.

We are fighting fascists, however not a fascist government.

We are fighting Islamic Fundamentalists, but we are not fighting the religion of Islam.

We aren't fighting a country, or a coalition of countries set upon conquering the world. We do have to fight in countries though, because this network of terrorism is spread around the world. But we do have to be wary of countries sympathetic towards their cause, or willing to help because the countries in question would like to see us defeated.

Make no mistake though. No matter what your political leaning is, left or right, these people want nothing less then to kill you. They do not want to negotiate and will do anything to see you dead and this country destroyed. Whatever we call this "war" it is a war nonetheless. How we fight and who leads us is open to opinion and criticism, however I have a hard time with criticism, apathy and second guessing of who is doing the actual fighting.

Which is why I like this board so much. No matter what this board's feelings are on the current leadership in the White House and on Capital Hill; I still see a strong patriotism here and unabashed love and support for our military men and women.

Yes, but how do you fight a combat war against an ideaology that fuels off of the death and destruction fueled off of our combat wars?

[earthbrown]

Where did you get that analogy from, a Captain America comic book? C'mon man!

I hope you actually know where I got that analogy from...



K

[scottinnj]

Yes, but how do you fight a combat war against an ideaology that fuels off of the death and destruction fueled off of our combat wars?

Well there I think you and I disagree. The fact that we were in Saudi Arabia after Desert Storm at the request of King Khalid was enough for Osama bin Laden to go after the Saudi government, then when he was expelled, us. Our support of Israel is enough for other radicals to band together and go after us. Destroy us, or our will to defend Israel and support that government, then it becomes much easier to bring it down, which is what the radicals ultimately want in the end.

[scottinnj]

I hope you actually know where I got that analogy from...



K

Don't care. Right now I'm browsing ebay for a spacesuit because here on EARTH 2 where you and I seem to be agreeing on something there seems to be no atmosphere to sustain human life. You, however seem to be breathing the refreshing chlorine breeze quite nicely.

[Yerdaddy]

You're actually going to defend the people that cut the clits of of women so they can't enjoy sex? Fuck them.

Female Genital Mutilation is an African custom that pre-dated Islam. The only Arab country in which it is practiced by a majority of the population is Egypt - an African country. It is NOT practiced in Iraq or Afghanistan, nor is it practiced in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan or any of the Gulf countries except Yemen, where it is practiced by about 23% of the population and only along the coasts that are a short boat trip across the Red Sea and Indian Ocean from African countries and it existed in those places before Islam.

Furthermore, the heads of Al-Azhar University in Cairo, one of the most prestigious Islamic institutions in Sunni Islam have condemned the practice, declaring it against Islam, and are working with UNICEF and other organizations to break the cycle of this ancient African custom.

In short, FGM is not an Islamic practice, it sure as shit isn't an Arab practice, and you have no fucking idea what you're talking about.

[foodcourtdruide]

Female Genital Mutilation is an African custom that pre-dated Islam. The only Arab country in which it is practiced by a majority of the population is Egypt - an African country. It is NOT practiced in Iraq or Afghanistan, nor is it practiced in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan or any of the Gulf countries except Yemen, where it is practiced by about 23% of the population and only along the coasts that are a short boat trip across the Red Sea and Indian Ocean from African countries and it existed in those places before Islam.

Furthermore, the heads of Al-Azhar University in Cairo, one of the most prestigious Islamic institutions in Sunni Islam have condemned the practice, declaring it against Islam, and are working with UNICEF and other organizations to break the cycle of this ancient African custom.

In short, FGM is not an Islamic practice, it sure as shit isn't an Arab practice, and you have no fucking idea what you're talking about.

LALALLALALALLALAA CAN'THEARYOU LALALALALALALA

You liar. I watch American cable news and listen to conservative talk radio. I know that any islamic school is actually the bogey-man.

[foodcourtdruide]

possibly at its clinical base, but in actuality to me an American soldier's life is more important.

Just like the FACT that all of us would value the life of a family member over someone else....I would take someones life without thinking, if I thought that person was going to harm my child, wife, self, or other friend or family member.

your adage that there is absolute equality in life is as ridiculous as anything....


CASE AND POINT.....

Your mother and father have been kidnapped by Nazis. The Nazis tell you they will rape and murder both of them if you dont kill a store owner who is funneling money to Al Queda...they send you a pistol, picture, and mapquest directions to the store....

What do you do??


K

This is your problem. You fail to realize that the people being killed are not always store owners funneling money to Al Qaeda.

What if the scenario was this:

What if the scenario above had you kill 6 innocent people along with the evil store owner, to save 2 members of your family?

[A.J.]

Female Genital Mutilation is an African custom that pre-dated Islam. The only Arab country in which it is practiced by a majority of the population is Egypt - an African country. It is NOT practiced in Iraq or Afghanistan, nor is it practiced in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan or any of the Gulf countries except Yemen, where it is practiced by about 23% of the population and only along the coasts that are a short boat trip across the Red Sea and Indian Ocean from African countries and it existed in those places before Islam.

Furthermore, the heads of Al-Azhar University in Cairo, one of the most prestigious Islamic institutions in Sunni Islam have condemned the practice, declaring it against Islam, and are working with UNICEF and other organizations to break the cycle of this ancient African custom.

In short, FGM is not an Islamic practice, it sure as shit isn't an Arab practice, and you have no fucking idea what you're talking about.

Yerdaddy knows his genitals. He spent time in Bangkok where he saw more vageens than an OBGYN!

[earthbrown]

What if the scenario above had you kill 6 innocent people along with the evil store owner, to save 2 members of your family?

In a blink of an eye, I would even do it if it meant the rest of my life in prison.

I do know this mentality is flawed, as it is what the terrorists use to justify their suicide bombings, although they think all non-muslims(or different denomination muslims) are deserving of death....fuck The little Hitler in Iran said he would be willing to lose millions of his countrymen, if he could wipe Israel off the map. Although I believe he is mostly blowing smoke...



Don't care. Right now I'm browsing ebay for a spacesuit because here on EARTH 2 where you and I seem to be agreeing on something there seems to be no atmosphere to sustain human life. You, however seem to be breathing the refreshing chlorine breeze quite nicely.

Analogy is a rip-off of a similar analogy that Ron uses to usually trick Earl into admitting he would perform some gay sex act on someone to save his parents.

[FUNKMAN]

why do they smell though and talk like they have a mouthful of flem?


and all the ayyayyayyay's at parties, madone!













:smile:

[MellySmelly]

Female Genital Mutilation is an African custom that pre-dated Islam. The only Arab country in which it is practiced by a majority of the population is Egypt - an African country. It is NOT practiced in Iraq or Afghanistan, nor is it practiced in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan or any of the Gulf countries except Yemen, where it is practiced by about 23% of the population and only along the coasts that are a short boat trip across the Red Sea and Indian Ocean from African countries and it existed in those places before Islam.

Furthermore, the heads of Al-Azhar University in Cairo, one of the most prestigious Islamic institutions in Sunni Islam have condemned the practice, declaring it against Islam, and are working with UNICEF and other organizations to break the cycle of this ancient African custom.

In short, FGM is not an Islamic practice, it sure as shit isn't an Arab practice, and you have no fucking idea what you're talking about.

I wonder why they are trying to get legislation passed to criminalize it then.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1700191,00.html


My first post about killing them all was meant as a sarcastic exaggeration.

[ronolson1972]

Cliff notes.

Sniper group in Iraq, up most of 72 previous hours.

Civilian stumbles on location.

Civilian begins to yell, possibly attempting to warn insurgents

Sgt Hensley, orders Sgt Vela, to shoot the man, and testifies that he would have done it himself, had Vela hesitated.

Sgt. Hensley also admits in trial to fabricating the cover-up story.

Sgt. Hensley acquitted on murder charges.

Sgt. Vela, going to Leavenworth for 10 years, depending on outcome of the appeal.

How can we sustain this idiocy?

1. I feel this killing was justified, kill one to possibly save a squad.

2. Why are ROE in Iraq so fucked up that they have to Lie about the facts, instead of saying...."civilian compromised safety of squad, civilian was prevented from further endangering squad, via deadly force."

3. Why do we see "grunts", getting court-marshaled for a few deaths, but commanders and planners that misplace a bomb get off scott-free.

4. If we are going to continue to prosecute this stupid shit, than we need to just leave Iraq, it is bullshit, I would rather take a loss than have another serviceman spend time in prison, for doing what he felt necessary. This was not a blatant murder, it was a decision made under pressure and mental duress due to sleep depravity.

Fuck this war, and all its bullshit, like 10 year sentences for panties on a head....WTF, they chop heads of prisoners off, we put panties on them and then send the people to prison for 10 years!!!!


http://www.kpvi.com/Global/story.asp?S=7848267

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,330223,00.html


K

this is total bullshit they should have all ben set free. fuck that rag head.

[TheMojoPin]

Thank you, Perry Mason.

[earthbrown]

this is total bullshit they should have all ben set free. fuck that rag head.

Well said, sir...


K

[scottinnj]

boooooooooooo!

[earthbrown]

booooooooooooooo!

Well said, sir.

[TheMojoPin]

earthbrown's "evolution" from white power histronics to William Pierce-esque atempts at "civil hate speech" has been entertaining.

[scottinnj]

earthbrown's "evolution" from white power histronics to William Pierce-esque atempts at "civil hate speech" has been entertaining.

I'm still trembling at the fact that I understood a point he was making and the attempt I made at a real explanation of it. I swear I felt the earth wobble when I hit the "post" button.

[Kevin]

I'm still trembling at the fact that I understood a point he was making and the attempt I made at a real explanation of it. I swear I felt the earth wobble when I hit the "post" button.

GOOBA GABA ONE OF THEM, NOW ARE ONE OF THEM!!!

[Yerdaddy]

LALALLALALALLALAA CAN'THEARYOU LALALALALALALA

You liar. I watch American cable news and listen to conservative talk radio. I know that any islamic school is actually the bogey-man.

No no no! Only the women ullalate! Only the women!

[earthbrown]

earthbrown's "evolution" from white power histronics to William Pierce-esque atempts at "civil hate speech" has been entertaining.

Its not even close to "hate-speech"...


K

[TheMojoPin]

Its not even close to "hate-speech"...


K

You've crossed that line many, many times here already. Just because you've toned down the hyperbole doesn't mean it's gone.

[scottinnj]

Its not even close to "hate-speech"...


K

Maybe, maybe not. But your past posts provide us with not much else. Mojo is right-you have a long way to go to show you are not a racist making snide remarks. Right now in this particular thread you could be considered a dope making vague points.

[Yerdaddy]

I wonder why they are trying to get legislation passed to criminalize it then.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1700191,00.html


My first post about killing them all was meant as a sarcastic exaggeration.

The presence of FGM in that region of Kurdish Iraq hadn't been discovered when I reported on FGM from Yemen. (http://www.irinnews.org/report.asp?ReportID=50077&SelectRegion=Middle_East&SelectCountry=YEMEN) However, your own article shows it's pretty stupid to condemn an entire people when it only exists in one small part of the Kurdish region, (the Kurds being our allies since the first Gulf War and who are the one group who don't have members attacking our soldiers), and when, once it was discovered, the authorities and civil society institutions set out to ban it and end the practice.

I'll take you at your word that you meant your ignorant raving as sarcastic exaggeration and say you've disgraced sarcasm only slightly more than you've disgraced America's values of peace and tolerance.

[scottinnj]

Contrary to local perceptions, however, there is no doctrinal basis for the custom, either in Islam or Christianity. Nevertheless, it is often seen as a religiously ordained rite of passage for girls.

It's not even told about in the Koran!!!! The only thing I have ever heard of involving genitals is circumcism, and that was for health reasons.

This is like the loons here in America and other "civilized" countries who believe that taking their kids to the hospital when they get sick is a sin of lack of faith in God.
Freedom to worship the way you choose for yourself is one thing, and should always remain a right, on that we can all agree.

Causing harm or failure to prevent harm (being complicit) to another person, even in your own family because of your religious beliefs should always be considered a crime.

[TheMojoPin]

The only thing I have ever heard of involving genitals is circumcism, and that was for health reasons.

Bullshit ones.

I'm pissed over the savage mutilation of my poor, defenseless penis as a baby. Puritanity run amok.

[scottinnj]

Bullshit ones.

I'm pissed over the savage mutilation of my poor, defenseless penis as a baby. Puritanity run amok.

But now it looks beautiful and has a warhead that rules!!! Before you got cut it looked like a tube of hotdog leftovers stuffed in a large intestine lining. Thank the Lord for the phrase "I just want him to look like his Dad"

See how I seamlessly segway an important discussion of foreign policy into gayville? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! No one is safe!

[Yerdaddy]

I think the point you guys who are arguing with Earthblown are missing is that the issue with soldiers violating rules of engagement is not about a meaningless calculation of the value of American lives vs. Iraqi lives, but the fact that when soldiers violate their rules of engagement and murder Iraqis like what apparently happened here as well as at Abu Ghraib, and abuse, torture and humiliate Iraqis, they undermine the entire mission of the U.S. operation in Iraq. The fact is, Iraqis know how they're being treated by American forces infinitely better than we, who rely only on what the media are capable of learning about and reporting, do. Everyone in this man's village knew what happened to him and will judge American soldiers accordingly - just as all Iraqis knew what was happening inside Abu Ghraib, (and that it was much more than panties on heads), long before we did.

What the military system of justice knows, and what we should have learned after Abu Ghraib - when military commanders were telling Congress and the public this - is that these abuses of Iraqis get other American soldiers killed. Abu Ghraib, Hadditha, and all the other unjustified killings and abuses cause Iraqis to join the insurgency - the very thing that has killed most of our soldiers. Most soldiers understand this, and that's why you have so many soldiers condemning the lack of accountability of civilian security contractors - because their actions get soldiers killed.

So remember that when you root for bad soldiers who violate the rules of engagement, you're rooting for the good soldiers to pay the price for it.

[earthbrown]

Bullshit ones.

I'm pissed over the savage mutilation of my poor, defenseless penis as a baby. Puritanity run amok.

circumcision is the only way to go.


K

[TheMojoPin]

Circumcision is barbaric, but please pay attention to what Yerdaddy just said:

What the military system of justice knows, and what we should have learned after Abu Ghraib - when military commanders were telling Congress and the public this - is that these abuses of Iraqis get other American soldiers killed. Abu Ghraib, Hadditha, and all the other unjustified killings and abuses cause Iraqis to join the insurgency - the very thing that has killed most of our soldiers. Most soldiers understand this, and that's why you have so many soldiers condemning the lack of accountability of civilian security contractors - because their actions get soldiers killed.

So remember that when you root for bad soldiers who violate the rules of engagement, you're rooting for the good soldiers to pay the price for it.

[high fly]

Kill them all and let God sort them out.

1000 fucking arabs aren't worth the life of one American soldier.


First off, we can't kill them all.
Second, when you kill "1000 fucking Arabs" in cold blood not only are you committing mass murder, but you incite everyone in their families to participate in a blood feud against Americans.

So your "solution" actually has the effect in the real world of causing the deaths of more Americans.







ooh-rah, eh?

[FUNKMAN]

circumcision is the only way to go.


K

snip snip here, snip snip there, and a couple of tra la la's


can't everyone understand Melly was most likely drinking and though not an excuse but it caused heightened emotions?

and it's easy for Yerdaddy to be a McCain supporter, he is not living and working in the US

UHOH!

[Knowledged_one]

i say send over micheal jackson, he's the only one who gets those guys jumpin around with bombs strapped to their backs

who else can say you know im rockin in tikrit tonight

[earthbrown]

What the military system of justice knows, and what we should have learned after Abu Ghraib - when military commanders were telling Congress and the public this - is that these abuses of Iraqis get other American soldiers killed. Abu Ghraib, Hadditha, and all the other unjustified killings and abuses cause Iraqis to join the insurgency - the very thing that has killed most of our soldiers. Most soldiers understand this, and that's why you have so many soldiers condemning the lack of accountability of civilian security contractors - because their actions get soldiers killed.

So remember that when you root for bad soldiers who violate the rules of engagement, you're rooting for the good soldiers to pay the price for it.

The case against the Haditha marines is shaky at best. They dropped the charges against all but one, I believe...

Bottom line is I dont hold most of the armed forces responsible, because WE sent them there!

The only case I felt should have been prosecuted out of Iraq, was a Rape murder, where the facts were clear, the haditha case I believe was more confusion and adrenalin than coldblooded murder.

K

[TheMojoPin]

The case against the Haditha marines is shaky at best. They dropped the charges against all but one, I believe...

They were dropped due to immunity granted because they agreed to testify.

The entire thing is tainted due to the squadron and the military attmepting to cover the whole thing up as much as possibe before a legit invesitgation could take place.

I guess My Lai was just a "misunderstanding," right?

[foodcourtdruide]

The case against the Haditha marines is shaky at best. They dropped the charges against all but one, I believe...

Bottom line is I dont hold most of the armed forces responsible, because WE sent them there!

The only case I felt should have been prosecuted out of Iraq, was a Rape murder, where the facts were clear, the haditha case I believe was more confusion and adrenalin than coldblooded murder.

K

If someone close to you in murdered and the murderer claims they couldn't help it due to confusion and adrenalin, should they be allowed to walk free?

[earthbrown]

If someone close to you in murdered and the murderer claims they couldn't help it due to confusion and adrenalin, should they be allowed to walk free?

In a war scenario it is a 100% legitimate defense. Confusion and situation have allowed civilians to get acquittals.

Only some of the Haditha guys got immunity, most got charges dropped due to lack of evidence.

K

[epo]

I have a question: In the Wars in Iraq & Afghanistan, plus the "War on Terror" are we fighting a war against those who we feel have lesser moral standards than us?

[earthbrown]

I have a question: In the Wars in Iraq & Afghanistan, plus the "War on Terror" are we fighting a war against those who we feel have lesser moral standards than us?


Define morality...

[epo]

From the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/morality-definition/)

The term “morality” can be used either:

1. descriptively to refer to a code of conduct put forward by a society or,
a. some other group, such as a religion, or
b. accepted by an individual for her own behavior or

2. normatively to refer to a code of conduct that, given specified conditions, would be put forward by all rational persons.

[DiabloSammich]

From the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/morality-definition/)

The term “morality” can be used either:

1. descriptively to refer to a code of conduct put forward by a society or,
a. some other group, such as a religion, or
b. accepted by an individual for her own behavior or

2. normatively to refer to a code of conduct that, given specified conditions, would be put forward by all rational persons.




FACE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[earthbrown]

From the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/morality-definition/)

The term “morality” can be used either:

1. descriptively to refer to a code of conduct put forward by a society or,
a. some other group, such as a religion, or
b. accepted by an individual for her own behavior or

2. normatively to refer to a code of conduct that, given specified conditions, would be put forward by all rational persons.


Yes, morality is a subjective thing....Shirley Phelps-Roper has a different definition of Morality than yourself, i assume.

[scottinnj]

I have a question: In the Wars in Iraq & Afghanistan, plus the "War on Terror" are we fighting a war against those who we feel have lesser moral standards than us?

If you are talking about the terrorists, then yes.

[TheMojoPin]

In a war scenario it is a 100% legitimate defense. Confusion and situation have allowed civilians to get acquittals.

Only some of the Haditha guys got immunity, most got charges dropped due to lack of evidence.

K

No, most of them got immunity until pretty much the only people left had less than stellar cases against them. All of this was handled by the Marines. Funny how that worked out.

[earthbrown]

If you are talking about the terrorists, then yes.

I dont even know if thats true...the terrorists believe they have a supreme morality to uphold a perversion of Islam. Kinda like how Shirley Roper justifies her cause.

Terrorists actually believe our lack of morality, makes it ok to wage war against us.

I cant fault the terrorists for believing in their cause, but I can wish them all death at the end of a Marines gun.

Everyone believes his or her own actions are moral.


K

[earthbrown]

No, most of them got immunity until pretty much the only people left had less than stellar cases against them. All of this was handled by the Marines. Funny how that worked out.

IDK, to me you cant hold someone responsible for actions in the heat of battle.

They were clearing houses, the way you clear a house....grenades and spray the room....fast and furious pace....no time to decide if it was a threat or not.

All of the marines claimed there was fire from the house...I believe if they had hard evidence they would not have needed to give immunity to anyone.



K

[epo]

I have a question: In the Wars in Iraq & Afghanistan, plus the "War on Terror" are we fighting a war against those who we feel have lesser moral standards than us?

If you are talking about the terrorists, then yes.

I dont even know if thats true...the terrorists believe they have a supreme morality to uphold a perversion of Islam. Kinda like how Shirley Roper justifies her cause.

Terrorists actually believe our lack of morality, makes it ok to wage war against us.

I cant fault the terrorists for believing in their cause, but I can wish them all death at the end of a Marines gun.

Everyone believes his or her own actions are moral.

K

I obviously asked the question about morality for a reason. The terrorists, Al Qaeda, attacked us for a reason: Our perceived moral lackings (Also our relationship with Israel, Saudi Arabia & our entire middle east policy for the past 50 years - but that is for another discussion.).

So if we are fighting a war of morality with the terrorists, we need to make sure that our morality does not slip nor can it waver. We need to be righteous sons of bitches.

Therefore, every life on either side matters. Rules of warfare and capture must be held to the highest of standards for leadership & soliders. Civilians must always receive the same treatment that we would provide our own citizens. And our domestic life must remain as free or freer than it did when we attacked.

If not, philsophically they are allowed to feel like they have captured the moral high ground from us. And quite frankly we should never cede the moral high ground to an organization such as Al Qaeda. They aren't better than us and we shouldn't allow them to feel as such.

[TheMojoPin]

IDK, to me you cant hold someone responsible for actions in the heat of battle.

They were clearing houses, the way you clear a house....grenades and spray the room....fast and furious pace....no time to decide if it was a threat or not.

All of the marines claimed there was fire from the house...I believe if they had hard evidence they would not have needed to give immunity to anyone.

And given that the investigations were conducted by the military, which did its damndest to cover everything up before it was basically forced to investigate, that doesn't really hold too much weight.

And man, that crazy heat of battle clearing houses. 1, 2...24 people (including children) can end up dead, just like that.

Garbage. Scum like this give good soldiers a bad name.

[earthbrown]

And given that the investigations were conducted by the military, which did its damndest to cover everything up before it was basically forced to investigate, that doesn't really hold too much weight.

And man, that crazy heat of battle clearing houses. 1, 2...24 people (including children) can end up dead, just like that.

Garbage. Scum like this give good soldiers a bad name.


when they clear houses, they throw or shoot grenades into rooms and then spray from a door and then shoot anything that moves.

They are not bad marines....or bad americans...they simply ended up in a shitty situation....

I bet you are the kinda guy who would have yelled "Baby-killer" to the Vietnam Vets...

K

[Snacks]

when they clear houses, they throw or shoot grenades into rooms and then spray from a door and then shoot anything that moves.

They are not bad marines....or bad americans...they simply ended up in a shitty situation....

I bet you are the kinda guy who would have yelled "Baby-killer" to the Vietnam Vets...

K

and i guarantee you are a pussy

you talk so tough like you have done something or that we (american) can do as we please and it doesnt matter how we do it?

[TheMojoPin]

when they clear houses, they throw or shoot grenades into rooms and then spray from a door and then shoot anything that moves.

They are not bad marines....or bad americans...they simply ended up in a shitty situation....

I bet you are the kinda guy who would have yelled "Baby-killer" to the Vietnam Vets...

K

Why, because I don't make excuses for scumbags and criminals a psychopaths? Show me where I've just gone out and tossed out blanket condemnations of soldiers. Go to hell with your bullshit attempt to spin becase you can't respond to the points brought up.

Your scenario is full of crap because if it was so confusing all the time, we'd see this happen more often. You say it's a "shitty situation" like those guys were in an unusual situation compared to most of the other solderis. They weren't. Yes, the entire war is a "shitty situation," but somehow, most of our soldiers are able to refrain from slaughtering large groups of innocent people like this in face to face combat.

Why do you feel the need to defend people like this? All they do is reflect poorly on the scores of soldier who do deserve our respect and admiration.

Oh, and nice Vietnam namedrop when you couldn't even aswer my question about My Lai.

[Yerdaddy]

The case against the Haditha marines is shaky at best. They dropped the charges against all but one, I believe...

Bottom line is I dont hold most of the armed forces responsible, because WE sent them there!

The only case I felt should have been prosecuted out of Iraq, was a Rape murder, where the facts were clear, the haditha case I believe was more confusion and adrenalin than coldblooded murder.

K

Your facts on Hadditha are wrong. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/03/AR2008010303546_pf.html) The primary shooters were charged with multiple counts of voluntary manslaughter instead of murder. Those charges are in consideration of the fact that it was a battlefield situation, (as they should), but also reflect the fact that they violated the rules of engagement by shooting everyone - men, women and children - in a house they thought they were taking fire from. It should be obvious to any rational person that being in a war zone does not permit professional soldiers from a civilized nation to shoot innocent women and children.

But, of course, your argument about my mention of Hadditha was a red herring to distract from my point which was that soldiers who do these kinds of things undermine the entire mission in Iraq and get their comrades killed. You obviously see war as a sort of fantasy where everything is black and white and if your guys kill people they must have deserved it. According to your own statements in this thread alone, to you - and many other Americans - these innocent Iraqis were either guilty by nature or are expendible in our campaign to impose our will on that country. Yet not only is that is the mentality of the terrorists and their supporters, but it's exactly the kind of mentality that has lost MOST counterinsurgent wars (throughout history) such as this one - and in prolonging the conflict, has probably caused most of the deaths of the occupying forces including ours. That's what you need to come to terms with in order to actually be supporting the soldiers like you're telling yourself and us that you do. This is simply not a fucking video game or a Rambo movie over there where bullets magically only enter the bodies of the bad guys. It's time to grow up.

[earthbrown]

So if we are fighting a war of morality with the terrorists, we need to make sure that our morality does not slip nor can it waver. We need to be righteous sons of bitches.


I like that, that makes allor of sense.

Your facts on Hadditha are wrong. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/03/AR2008010303546_pf.html) The primary shooters were charged with multiple counts of voluntary manslaughter instead of murder. Those charges are in consideration of the fact that it was a battlefield situation, (as they should), but also reflect the fact that they violated the rules of engagement by shooting everyone - men, women and children - in a house they thought they were taking fire from. It should be obvious to any rational person that being in a war zone does not permit professional soldiers from a civilized nation to shoot innocent women and children.

But, of course, your argument about my mention of Hadditha was a red herring to distract from my point which was that soldiers who do these kinds of things undermine the entire mission in Iraq and get their comrades killed. You obviously see war as a sort of fantasy where everything is black and white and if your guys kill people they must have deserved it. According to your own statements in this thread alone, to you - and many other Americans - these innocent Iraqis were either guilty by nature or are expendible in our campaign to impose our will on that country. Yet not only is that is the mentality of the terrorists and their supporters, but it's exactly the kind of mentality that has lost MOST counterinsurgent wars (throughout history) such as this one - and in prolonging the conflict, has probably caused most of the deaths of the occupying forces including ours. That's what you need to come to terms with in order to actually be supporting the soldiers like you're telling yourself and us that you do. This is simply not a fucking video game or a Rambo movie over there where bullets magically only enter the bodies of the bad guys. It's time to grow up.

I understand fully that war is a bitch, as much as I can understand, having never been involved in a war. I do play call of duty4 and understand that even when you kill the enemy, he magically respawns, and comes back after you.

K

[A.J.]

I guess My Lai was just a "misunderstanding," right?

"I think it was a misremembering, Mister MojoPin."

http://mlb.mlb.com/images/2008/02/13/a6Xl8I5s.jpg

[scottinnj]

when they clear houses, they throw or shoot grenades into rooms and then spray from a door and then shoot anything that moves.

They are not bad marines....or bad americans...they simply ended up in a shitty situation....

I bet you are the kinda guy who would have yelled "Baby-killer" to the Vietnam Vets...

K


Dude, when we go house to house cleaning (I've done this and it is still the same) we TRAIN, TRAIN and TRAIN some more to distinguish good guy from bad guy. HOURS dude, are spent on a range to just practice entering and sweeping a room, without any ammunition at all. It is a ballet (that's for you Marc!) that you go over and over again with people you trust and who trust you, and all that is to make sure you don't shoot each other going into a room.
I don't think I can describe the excruciating frustration when you open a door, take two steps and have an instructor smack you in the back of your head, and hear him say "Do it again stupid, you're dead and you shot your partner" AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!
Times that by 50, and that was a Monday for me.

THEN in the real world, when the shit goes down, you have to have enough trust in your intelligence that is given to you to know what the risks are when entering a building. You will have a basic sense of what and who is in what room if you have been in the area long enough.

It is not a perfect system, but the United States military is the closest to making it perfect.
The difference between Haditha and what was shown on NBC news during the Fallujah battle was apples and oranges.

The Marine who shot the wounded terrorist on tape in the room during the battle for Fallujah believed he and his buddies were in danger because the terrorist was reaching for something, and not responding to commands to stay still. He was right in what he was doing and after an investigation, was exonerated.

The Marines in Haditha were reacting to an IED explosion that killed one of their buddies, but instead of regrouping, assessing the situation and implementing a plan, they rushed into a building not knowing who was where, and shot up the place. Also the commanders will be put on trial for falsifying information about the incident, the "cover-up"

What little good that is coming out of this incident is that once again, no matter what happened, and even a flag officer trying to coverup the evidence, military justice will always dig down in an investigation and find the truth, and punish the lawbreakers.