The Great Gun Debate

[Gvac]

Let's solve this controversial issue once and for all. If anyone can, it's the great minds here at RonFez.net.

No, I'm not drunk.


What's your feeling? If we outlaw them as Fez and Dave want, will that solve the problem? Or will there still be plenty of illegal weapons available on the black market?

Should you have to pass some sort of training to obtain one? Should it be made more difficult to pass the screening process?

Sound off!

[Franklyn]

I've always been a pacifist but I realize the importance of guns in our society. as long as our government and criminals have guns, I want one and I want mine unregistered. I've seen "Red Dawn". lol.

[PapaBear]

The best thing that can be done about guns is for SERIOUS efforts to be made to keep guns out of the hands of people with mental problems. Banning guns is useless, because there are so many guns. In countries that have had a good history of gun bans, they haven't had the proliferation that we have. Just keep them out of the hands of psycho's.

[Gvac]

I've always been a pacifist but I realize the importance of guns in our society. as long as our government and criminals have guns, I want one and I want mine unregistered. I've seen "Red Dawn". lol.

Well then you're not really a pacifist, are you? :wink:

[SouthSideJohnny]

Drugs are illegal, but we all know where we can buy them. Same thing would happen with guns. Look at the recidivism rates of criminals. Convicted felons commit crimes every day using guns, and they're not purchased legally. Current laws don't stop them, and new laws wouldn't either. Take a look at England and Australia to see how well gun control works. Gun crime rates INCREASED after they were "controlled."

The other issue is deprivation of property without due process. If the government thinks they're going to take guns from lawful owners, it has to pay just compensation.

I'm not a NRA shill. I'm in favor of reasonable proficiency requirements before someone owns or carries a gun. As I said in a post in another thread, my family and I walk the same streets everyone else does, and I don't want people carrying guns without knowing how to use them. Like any other right, with it comes responsibility.

[Furtherman]

Charlton: Knock, Knock

Conan: Who's there?

Charlton: Gu

Conan: Gu who?

Charlton: Gunnn. Heh Heh Heh. My gun told me that.

[pennington]

I've never owned a gun and I have no plans to do so in the future. But I think, after a background check, anyone who wants one should be able to buy one legally. Problem solved.

A few years ago wasn't there a town in Florida that passed an ordinance that every home should have a gun (I can't find the article)? I recall burglaries dropped dramatically.

[Furtherman]

A few years ago wasn't there a town in Florida that passed an ordinance that every home should have a gun (I can't find the article)? I recall burglaries dropped dramatically.

Kennesaw, Georgia, passed a law like that in the 90's. Crime went down 80% and burglaries went down 90%. I'm off a few percentage points on those stats (that's the last I remember reading), but crime was down dramatically with the passing of that law.

[TeeBone]

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:8mCruyA_XJAkdM:http://www.sturmgewehr.com/sturmgewehr.jpg

I always found the assault weapons ban funny. They are classified as such if they have the appearance of being an assault riffle, regardless if the weapon is semi-automatic. Its just a silly debate. Remove the fact that it is our given right as Americans to own a gun and still the thought of a society without guns is about as plausible as a society that will not be dependent upon oil production as a means of energy. My point is, the end is not near for Americans owning weapons legally---so the debate should end.

oh and by the way----don't delude yourselves into thinking that an alternative source of energy for your car is right around the corner either.

Utopia does not exist. We are on borrowed time and I can't believe we have made it this far.
Go by a gun, fill your SUV, take a drive to a shooting range and when your finished enjoy a cold beer and the drug of your choice. As was pointed out by a previous poster-----Drugs are fairly easy to score as well.

So long, Sissy Pacifists. :bye:

[Stankfoot]

I think every passenger on a plane should be assigned a gun as they board the plane.
That way a hijacker wouldn't have an advantage....

[Mike Teacher]

To clarify the Guns Vs Pools thing I emailed Ron with; the Freakonomics link:

Freakonomics (http://www.freakonomicsbook.com/thebook/ch5.html)

and the exact text of 'Guns vs Pools' from said book:
=

"Consider the parents of an eight-year-old girl named, say, Molly. Her two best friends, Amy and Imani, each live nearby. Molly's parents know that Amy's parents keep a gun in their house, so they have forbidden Molly to play there.

Instead, Molly spends a lot of time at Imani's house, which has a swimming pool in the backyard. Molly's parents feel good about having made such a smart choice to protect their daughter.

But according to the data, their choice isn't smart at all. In a given year, there is one drowning of a child for every 11,000 residential pools in the United States. (In a country with 6 million pools, this means that roughly 550 children under the age of ten drown each year.)

Meanwhile, there is 1 child killed by a gun for every 1 million-plus guns. (In a country with an estimated 200 million guns, this means that roughly 175 children under ten die each year from guns.)

The likelihood of death by pool (1 in 11,000) versus death by gun (1 in 1 million-plus) isn't even close: Molly is roughly 100 times more likely to die in a swimming accident at Imani's house than in gunplay at Amy's."

=

But this derails, and I apologize, because the intent of the example isnt about guns at all, or pools, its about how lousy we are at risk assesment;

"the risks that scare people and the risks that kill people are very different"

[SouthSideJohnny]

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080329/NEWS/803290329

This article confirms what I was saying. The assailant already had felony convictions, but still managed to have two guns.

[Marc with a c]

fill the pools with guns

[FUNKMAN]

i listened to some of the show and ron was totally wrong on his view that "only" criminals kill people with guns. there are many many situations where a person with no criminal background kills someone with a gun. a kid who is angry with his parents, a person who gets jealous or angry with their spouse.

maybe in some cases if a gun was not around then a person would have not been killed but of course people can stab, strangle, bludgeon. the difference is you can argue a gun is more lethal or gives an easier method to kill someone

[Doogie]

I am a legal gun owner. I exercise my rights to bear arms with great seriousness and dont walk around town flaunting my rifles. I use them for skeet shooting. I find it to be a tremendous exercise in hand eye-coordination and have won a few prizes with that skill.

I agree with an assault weapons ban for citizens because frankly assault weapons are designed to attack fortifcations, tanks, armored cars, etc. However, history has shown time and again, a government that has an unarmed citizenry is an exploited citizenry. The purpose of the 2nd Amendment is two-fold:

1) to be able to form a militia quickly in times of invasion. The government agency doesnt have to spend the time or resources tracking down a rifle for you to use if you are already armed.

2) to keep in check the large central government that the framers of the constitution feared. A disconnected body that exploited the people with no fear of recourse.

I find it greatly ironic that the ACLU which is ALL about peoples freedoms, will not defend the 2nd Amendment. Hell I took a police test recently and I had to pay a $75 fee for the application. But if you were poor and from the inner city you were allowed to take the test for free. And why?? Cause the ACLU argued that it violated peoples 14th Amendment. They didnt take into account that at the time I was unemployed, a vet, and having to lose $75 might have of been a hit for me that I could have of used. BUT when it comes to protecting the rights of gun owners, they are fervently against people like myself. Yet this is a group that constantly fears big government!!! They make no fucking sense.

Getting back to the point, even with the framing of the Constitution did people know the necessity to keep and armed citizenry and not just a militia, as the people from the ACLU have argued the second amendment is only for a militia. And I quote: "New York ratified the Constitution, but it included with the ratification statement a declaration of rights and a statement that ratification was made with the assumption that the rights enumerated in the declaration could not be abridged or violated and were consistent with the Constitution.[168] Accordingly, New York ratified, but made clear that the people had a right to keep and bear arms and that the militia was to include all the people capable of bearing arms, not just a select few."

George Mason, one of the framers even reinforced my point 221 years ago by stating: "Mason, spoke on the relationship between arms and liberty. Mason asserted that '...history had demonstrated that the most effective way to enslave a people is to disarm them.' Mason suggested that divine providence had given every individual the right of self-defense, clearly including the right to defend one's political liberty within that term. The goddamn framers knew that the people needed to be armed to promote harmony. An ironic proposition but one that has held true for 220 years.

Lets face the facts...there are all sorts of stop gaps in place to make sure that the proper people are getting guns. And if I recall recently a law was passed that does prevent the mentally disabled from buying guns. The fact of the matter that people are "still able to get guns" bring us to a whole other issue. The fact that there is a bootleg market out there to get guns and why there isnt a crackdown on that as opposed to us legal gun owners that exercise responsibility. When people come to my house, a rifle isnt ready to go in a heartbeat. It is locked away in a gun cabinet. It is kept away from children and the keys are in a utmost secure place.

I believe one caller called in earlier and stated something to the effect that in the oldern days, people carried guns at a young age to protect homesteads. As a result they respected the power of the gun. They knew what it could/couldnt do. Hell even up till about the 1970's some schools on the northeast had rifle ranges on site. Using a rifle was once part of PE programs, and if you came to school with a gun rack on your car with a gun in it the vice prinicipal compared rifles with you. And know why?? People respected weapons cause they were TRAINED to respect them. We now are raising such a fucking pussy society that we wont even introduce kids to guns in a responsible manner because "video games will make him kill!!!!!!!!!!!!" This dogshit mentality has to go and the fact that people want to take guns away from us responsible owners is bullshit. Go after the fucking savages that obtained guns illegally, but dont infringe on my rights cause a few people can't control themselves.

Hell right now anyone can get prescription drugs by saying you get a headache, and people abuse them everyday. EVERYDAY!! Yet their isnt a public outcry over that, we love our drugs. But heaven forbid there is one killing by a knucklehead with a gun cause they were not taught to respect a gun and they want to take away my fucking rights to own one. History has shown a necessity for being armed, I have shown responsiblity by being armed both in the US military (although I only used an M-16 twice in my career), and as a private citizen. There are millions like me who exercise there rights as a citizen with great responsibility, yet there are a few "safety conscious" individuals that want to take that right away cause of a bad few. Why not give us who bear arms with responsibility a chance to argue our points both with actions and words before we go taking that right away too.

[Bulldogcakes]

Drugs are illegal, but we all know where we can buy them. Same thing would happen with guns. Look at the recidivism rates of criminals. Convicted felons commit crimes every day using guns, and they're not purchased legally. Current laws don't stop them, and new laws wouldn't either. Take a look at England and Australia to see how well gun control works. Gun crime rates INCREASED after they were "controlled."

The other issue is deprivation of property without due process. If the government thinks they're going to take guns from lawful owners, it has to pay just compensation.

I'm not a NRA shill. I'm in favor of reasonable proficiency requirements before someone owns or carries a gun. As I said in a post in another thread, my family and I walk the same streets everyone else does, and I don't want people carrying guns without knowing how to use them. Like any other right, with it comes responsibility.

That's where the NRA loses me too. A gun is at least as big a responsibility as an automobile is, its just as dangerous if not more so. Yet they generally oppose licensing efforts despite the fact that they hold responsible gun ownership classes of their own.

I would welcome easier access to legal gun ownership as long as you had to pass a proficiency test and maintain a license of some sort. If you're caught being a yahoo with it, you lose your license. Responsible gun owners aren't a problem, they're an asset to a civilized society. Criminals and yahoos are the problem with guns.

[spankyfrank]

Like with most things it doesn't help to just have our own country get rid of guns. The bottom line is that there are sick people out there and there will always be sick people out there. Therefore I say keep guns to protect oneself and ones family from sickos.

I also would say that if the situation can be resolved with diplomacy then go that route first.

[scottinnj]

I agree with an assault weapons ban for citizens because frankly assault weapons are designed to attack fortifcations, tanks, armored cars, etc.

Hey, if you're willing to take on a fort or a tank or armored car with an AK-47 or an M-4, be my guest Don Quixote! While you charge the 105 mm cannon facing you, I'll call in the Apache with the Hellfire missiles. Wacka Wacka!! :clap:

An M-4 is a .223 caliber. High velocity, but tiny bullet.

The AK series fires a 7.62 mm round, similar size to a .308 caliber. Bigger then the M-4 round, but lower velocity.

The assault weapons just look "scary" and were easy to pick on because of that by politicians. They would show you a fully automatic M-4 and make you believe that the civilian version, the AR-15, could do the same thing, fire fully automatic like a machine gun.
Same thing with the AK and SKS systems.
All it did was make them more expensive to gun owners, you could still purchase them during the ban, sans a flash suppressor or pistolgrip behind the trigger. That "loophole" only exposed what was a scam from the get go: the "assault weapons" ban just "banned" weapons that looked scary. Take a couple scary looking features off the rifle, and it was perfectly legal to buy.

[Bossanova]

Alright I call Gvac's cock the Great Gun. I didn't know everyone was going to debate on it.

[Friday]

guns for all!

and no laws!

and no pants!

wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[cougarjake13]

if you outlaw them people will still be able to get them

only it will be the worst of people

and even if you did outlaw them how would get all the guns in circulation now ???



i say the herd needs some thinning

[NewYorkDragons80]

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”
The original and copies distributed to the states, and then ratified by them, had different capitalization and punctuation:
“A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
So the militia is the military and the people are a separate entity entirely, empowered by the Constitution to defend themselves (though in the context of the Constitution it is to defend them against the government). So gun control is unconstitutional, rebuttals?

[scottinnj]

guns for all!

and no laws!

and no pants!

wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

I'll give up my gun rights when Friday gives up her pants. It's a no-brainer trade.

[TeeBone]

I am a legal gun owner.
I agree with an assault weapons ban for citizens because frankly assault weapons are designed to attack fortifcations, tanks, armored cars, etc.


My point was geared more toward the majority of weapons that were banned. Whether or not something looks like a machine gun, doesn't mean it performs like a machine gun. You would not attack a fortified position with an assault rifle, that would be stupid and is not what the semi-automatic rifle was designed for. Sure, it may look tough but its just a rifle.

[Doogie]

An article for all to digest on this issue: http://www.guncite.com/journals/vandhist.html

[Mafialife Chris]

I miss the wild wild west.

[jonyrotn]

Fuck guns, and fuck people who think they NEED guns..I've been carrying a gun for 17 years and it's been nothing but a hassle..I've been shot at seven times and have made 93 gun arrest not one was of the registered owner or purchaser, and been involved in hundreds more..I got to the precenct I work at in 1991 the following year,1992 there was 112 homicides in the neighborhood I patroled and it's dosn't even cover .75 square miles..Every bad guy and their infant sister it seemed had a gun, bigger and better then mine was..I'd gladly give up my gun for a swiss army knife if we could find a way to melt every one of them into a pile of metal..
Your chest hasn't rummbled and your heart hasn't dropped until you've been two car lengths away from a career criminal and his stolen AK47, being fired at you and another guy you love very much (no homo)..Just the sound of the Brass hitting the ground is enough to ask yourself why you even bothered being born..In that single instance I realized two things..Not only did I realize my .38 cal revolver with 18 rounds of ammo was as usless as a paper wieght..I also realized if people manufacture, sell and allow guns, especially like these to be on the streets, I was gonna get killed eventually..I Had come to grips with the fact that if all things remained the same I would be killed in a violent manner by someone with a illegal firearm..Pretty hard concept to swallow when you're a kid in your early twenties..Good thing for me things changed..A new mayor and a new police commissioner help inact laws that changed the way guns were sold up to 1,200 miles away..The cop on the street was then given the green light to go after the guns on the street and we aggressively pursued those who wished us dead..That was a very tumultuous time around here..Fourty-Seven shots and other less pulicised occurances put the community on edge and every time I jumped out of the car to pat down a couple-three guys sitting on the hood of a BMW I heard about how someone was gonna kill me and how I was gonna get mine, to late..I already knew that..In my chosen profession we don't just read about gun control issues, we deal with them in a much more intimate manner...One might say we live them..Well here we are all these years later and it hasn't happened yet and if it doesn't happen in the next three years, I will have escaped what I once thought would be my end..I'm writting this while I sit in the passenger's seat of an unmarked police car, with the only three men who mean anything to me right now hunting for men who hunt for others..As I do, I'm forced to wonder if tonight someone with an illegal firearm will make all my life's decisions for me..Shitty way to go through life..But knowing you're gonna die and still alowing yourself to live is pretty rewarding..
I've had to interrupt this post about five times , as duty calls..So if it appears choppy and incoherent I'm sorry..Actually that descrides most if not all my posts...We've made one gun arrest so far tonight and we're expected to get at least one more before we're finished at 0430.Even in these times with the cosmetic gun control laws that have taken effect over the past 5-10 years our "productivity goals" are still two guns per night for a team of four cops..I suppose it's better then the early '90s when we were only asked to stay alive for our eight and a half hour tour..IN this car 3 for gun control 1 against, but he's gay so he may have something else in mind when asked about "gun control".. That's how the PoPo feels..

[nevnut]

I believe one caller called in earlier and stated something to the effect that in the oldern days, people carried guns at a young age to protect homesteads. As a result they respected the power of the gun. They knew what it could/couldnt do. Hell even up till about the 1970's some schools on the northeast had rifle ranges on site. Using a rifle was once part of PE programs, and if you came to school with a gun rack on your car with a gun in it the vice prinicipal compared rifles with you. And know why?? People respected weapons cause they were TRAINED to respect them. We now are raising such a fucking pussy society that we wont even introduce kids to guns in a responsible manner because "video games will make him kill!!!!!!!!!!!!" This dogshit mentality has to go and the fact that people want to take guns away from us responsible owners is bullshit. Go after the fucking savages that obtained guns illegally, but dont infringe on my rights cause a few people can't control themselves.

I had gun safety in school in the seventh grade. In high school, we had our 22's in our trucks and would skip school to go blast ground squirrels or rabbits or whatever. When fights broke out amongst kids, no one ever even thought about running to their truck and grabbing a gun to settle the issue, it was nothing but fists, because we all knew that a gun would kill and it was reality, not fiction as most kids are taught with video games. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against violent video games, I just believe most parents don't take the time to teach their kids the difference between reality and fantasy and kids just don't know the difference.

My 12 year-old son knows the difference because I've taken him out and let him shoot squirrels and such and he knows that when they bleed, they are dead unlike the fantasy of video games where everything comes back to life.

The biggest problem is kids are not taught the difference between reality and fantasy and there is no consequences for their actions

[TheMojoPin]

Bubbalicious is good, but I miss Hubba-Bubba. WATERMELON FTW.

[scottinnj]

In high school, we had our 22's in our trucks and would skip school to go blast ground squirrels or rabbits or whatever.

How Big? I used to bullseye womprats with my T-16 back home, and they aren't much bigger then 2 meters. I never knew you guys were into small game hunting too.

Small galaxy, small galaxy indeed.......

[Friday]

Fuck guns, and fuck people who think they NEED guns..I've been carrying a gun for 17 years and it's been nothing but a hassle..I've been shot at seven times and have made 93 gun arrest not one was of the registered owner or purchaser, and been involved in hundreds more..I got to the precenct I work at in 1991 the following year,1992 there was 112 homicides in the neighborhood I patroled and it's dosn't even cover .75 square miles..Every bad guy and their infant sister it seemed had a gun, bigger and better then mine was..I'd gladly give up my gun for a swiss army knife if we could find a way to melt every one of them into a pile of metal..
Your chest hasn't rummbled and your heart hasn't dropped until you've been two car lengths away from a career criminal and his stolen AK47, being fired at you and another guy you love very much (no homo)..Just the sound of the Brass hitting the ground is enough to ask yourself why you even bothered being born..In that single instance I realized two things..Not only did I realize my .38 cal revolver with 18 rounds of ammo was as usless as a paper wieght..I also realized if people manufacture, sell and allow guns, especially like these to be on the streets, I was gonna get killed eventually..I Had come to grips with the fact that if all things remained the same I would be killed in a violent manner by someone with a illegal firearm..Pretty hard concept to swallow when you're a kid in your early twenties..Good thing for me things changed..A new mayor and a new police commissioner help inact laws that changed the way guns were sold up to 1,200 miles away..The cop on the street was then given the green light to go after the guns on the street and we aggressively pursued those who wished us dead..That was a very tumultuous time around here..Fourty-Seven shots and other less pulicised occurances put the community on edge and every time I jumped out of the car to pat down a couple-three guys sitting on the hood of a BMW I heard about how someone was gonna kill me and how I was gonna get mine, to late..I already knew that..In my chosen profession we don't just read about gun control issues, we deal with them in a much more intimate manner...One might say we live them..Well here we are all these years later and it hasn't happened yet and if it doesn't happen in the next three years, I will have escaped what I once thought would be my end..I'm writting this while I sit in the passenger's seat of an unmarked police car, with the only three men who mean anything to me right now hunting for men who hunt for others..As I do, I'm forced to wonder if tonight someone with an illegal firearm will make all my life's decisions for me..Shitty way to go through life..But knowing you're gonna die and still alowing yourself to live is pretty rewarding..
I've had to interrupt this post about five times , as duty calls..So if it appears choppy and incoherent I'm sorry..Actually that descrides most if not all my posts...We've made one gun arrest so far tonight and we're expected to get at least one more before we're finished at 0430.Even in these times with the cosmetic gun control laws that have taken effect over the past 5-10 years our "productivity goals" are still two guns per night for a team of four cops..I suppose it's better then the early '90s when we were only asked to stay alive for our eight and a half hour tour..IN this car 3 for gun control 1 against, but he's gay so he may have something else in mind when asked about "gun control".. That's how the PoPo feels..

:wacko:

[Kris10]

Fuck guns, and fuck people who think they NEED guns..I've been carrying a gun for 17 years and it's been nothing but a hassle..I've been shot at seven times and have made 93 gun arrest not one was of the registered owner or purchaser, and been involved in hundreds more..I got to the precenct I work at in 1991 the following year,1992 there was 112 homicides in the neighborhood I patroled and it's dosn't even cover .75 square miles..Every bad guy and their infant sister it seemed had a gun, bigger and better then mine was..I'd gladly give up my gun for a swiss army knife if we could find a way to melt every one of them into a pile of metal..
Your chest hasn't rummbled and your heart hasn't dropped until you've been two car lengths away from a career criminal and his stolen AK47, being fired at you and another guy you love very much (no homo)..Just the sound of the Brass hitting the ground is enough to ask yourself why you even bothered being born..In that single instance I realized two things..Not only did I realize my .38 cal revolver with 18 rounds of ammo was as usless as a paper wieght..I also realized if people manufacture, sell and allow guns, especially like these to be on the streets, I was gonna get killed eventually..I Had come to grips with the fact that if all things remained the same I would be killed in a violent manner by someone with a illegal firearm..Pretty hard concept to swallow when you're a kid in your early twenties..Good thing for me things changed..A new mayor and a new police commissioner help inact laws that changed the way guns were sold up to 1,200 miles away..The cop on the street was then given the green light to go after the guns on the street and we aggressively pursued those who wished us dead..That was a very tumultuous time around here..Fourty-Seven shots and other less pulicised occurances put the community on edge and every time I jumped out of the car to pat down a couple-three guys sitting on the hood of a BMW I heard about how someone was gonna kill me and how I was gonna get mine, to late..I already knew that..In my chosen profession we don't just read about gun control issues, we deal with them in a much more intimate manner...One might say we live them..Well here we are all these years later and it hasn't happened yet and if it doesn't happen in the next three years, I will have escaped what I once thought would be my end..I'm writting this while I sit in the passenger's seat of an unmarked police car, with the only three men who mean anything to me right now hunting for men who hunt for others..As I do, I'm forced to wonder if tonight someone with an illegal firearm will make all my life's decisions for me..Shitty way to go through life..But knowing you're gonna die and still alowing yourself to live is pretty rewarding..
I've had to interrupt this post about five times , as duty calls..So if it appears choppy and incoherent I'm sorry..Actually that descrides most if not all my posts...We've made one gun arrest so far tonight and we're expected to get at least one more before we're finished at 0430.Even in these times with the cosmetic gun control laws that have taken effect over the past 5-10 years our "productivity goals" are still two guns per night for a team of four cops..I suppose it's better then the early '90s when we were only asked to stay alive for our eight and a half hour tour..IN this car 3 for gun control 1 against, but he's gay so he may have something else in mind when asked about "gun control".. That's how the PoPo feels..

Be safe and I love you babe.

[jonyrotn]

:wacko:
:wacko: ? please expound.
Be safe and I love you babe.
Thanks Rouski you're always so nice to me..I love ya right back..

[A.J.]

I support the right to bare my love gun.

[foodcourtdruide]

The original and copies distributed to the states, and then ratified by them, had different capitalization and punctuation:

So the militia is the military and the people are a separate entity entirely, empowered by the Constitution to defend themselves (though in the context of the Constitution it is to defend them against the government). So gun control is unconstitutional, rebuttals?

The supreme court last ruled on this in 1939:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Miller

I think this argument is extremely dishonest on both sides.

1. Your statement about a militia probably only applied to white males at the time. So should white males only be allowed to carry guns?
2. If we are abiding by the original intentions of the constitution, shouldn't guns be carried solely for the protection of the individual against the federal government, and not against other individuals?
3. As has been stated above, the correlation between crime and firearms has never scientifically been proven.

My personal opinion is that guns should be legal, but controlled. I've never found a valid argument for automatic or semi-automatic weapons that doesn't simply dance around the constitution. We are a society wtih guns, making guns illegal will not change this. The best way to cope with it is education and regulation.

[oldladyfacepuncher]

Fuck guns, and fuck people who think they NEED guns..I've been carrying a gun for 17 years and it's been nothing but a hassle..I've been shot at seven times and have made 93 gun arrest not one was of the registered owner or purchaser, and been involved in hundreds more..I got to the precenct I work at in 1991 the following year,1992 there was 112 homicides in the neighborhood I patroled and it's dosn't even cover .75 square miles..Every bad guy and their infant sister it seemed had a gun, bigger and better then mine was..I'd gladly give up my gun for a swiss army knife if we could find a way to melt every one of them into a pile of metal..
Your chest hasn't rummbled and your heart hasn't dropped until you've been two car lengths away from a career criminal and his stolen AK47, being fired at you and another guy you love very much (no homo)..Just the sound of the Brass hitting the ground is enough to ask yourself why you even bothered being born..In that single instance I realized two things..Not only did I realize my .38 cal revolver with 18 rounds of ammo was as usless as a paper wieght..I also realized if people manufacture, sell and allow guns, especially like these to be on the streets, I was gonna get killed eventually..I Had come to grips with the fact that if all things remained the same I would be killed in a violent manner by someone with a illegal firearm..Pretty hard concept to swallow when you're a kid in your early twenties..Good thing for me things changed..A new mayor and a new police commissioner help inact laws that changed the way guns were sold up to 1,200 miles away..The cop on the street was then given the green light to go after the guns on the street and we aggressively pursued those who wished us dead..That was a very tumultuous time around here..Fourty-Seven shots and other less pulicised occurances put the community on edge and every time I jumped out of the car to pat down a couple-three guys sitting on the hood of a BMW I heard about how someone was gonna kill me and how I was gonna get mine, to late..I already knew that..In my chosen profession we don't just read about gun control issues, we deal with them in a much more intimate manner...One might say we live them..Well here we are all these years later and it hasn't happened yet and if it doesn't happen in the next three years, I will have escaped what I once thought would be my end..I'm writting this while I sit in the passenger's seat of an unmarked police car, with the only three men who mean anything to me right now hunting for men who hunt for others..As I do, I'm forced to wonder if tonight someone with an illegal firearm will make all my life's decisions for me..Shitty way to go through life..But knowing you're gonna die and still alowing yourself to live is pretty rewarding..
I've had to interrupt this post about five times , as duty calls..So if it appears choppy and incoherent I'm sorry..Actually that descrides most if not all my posts...We've made one gun arrest so far tonight and we're expected to get at least one more before we're finished at 0430.Even in these times with the cosmetic gun control laws that have taken effect over the past 5-10 years our "productivity goals" are still two guns per night for a team of four cops..I suppose it's better then the early '90s when we were only asked to stay alive for our eight and a half hour tour..IN this car 3 for gun control 1 against, but he's gay so he may have something else in mind when asked about "gun control".. That's how the PoPo feels..

Absolutely, guns should be illegal for criminals.

Seriously though, don't you think the guys you are chasing are going to get them anyway?

I don't trust the government anymore. The Executive branch is out of control, no one in the other branches has any nuts, and we're becoming a nation of sheep. Leave the 2nd Amendment alone. Some people will make the argument that the citizens should have access to the same weapons as the government. Fuck it, I'm going off on a tangent...punching out.

Stay safe.

[Jujubees2]

Jonyrotn,

Thanks for your service. I've worked in the Bronx for the past 11 years and have seen the difference you guys are making. Keep up the great work and BE SAFE!

As for the while gun control issue, I am personally opposed to guns and would never allow one in my house or near my children under any circumstance. I'm sorry but allowing my child to shoot an innocent animal is not teaching my child any kind of lesson.

That said, we've come too far in this nation to outlaw guns but we do need to ensure that those who have guns have some sort of training and have a thorough background check before they are able to purchase a gun.

And for all those who say that guns are a means of protection, if you need a gun to feel free are you really free?

Also, here's a list of school shooting worldwide wince 1996 and please notice a vast majority of them occurred in the U.S.

A Time Line of Recent Worldwide School Shootings (http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777958.html)

[CountryBob]

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:8mCruyA_XJAkdM:http://www.sturmgewehr.com/sturmgewehr.jpg

I always found the assault weapons ban funny. They are classified as such if they have the appearance of being an assault riffle, regardless if the weapon is semi-automatic. Its just a silly debate. Remove the fact that it is our given right as Americans to own a gun and still the thought of a society without guns is about as plausible as a society that will not be dependent upon oil production as a means of energy. My point is, the end is not near for Americans owning weapons legally---so the debate should end.

oh and by the way----don't delude yourselves into thinking that an alternative source of energy for your car is right around the corner either.

Utopia does not exist. We are on borrowed time and I can't believe we have made it this far.
Go by a gun, fill your SUV, take a drive to a shooting range and when your finished enjoy a cold beer and the drug of your choice. As was pointed out by a previous poster-----Drugs are fairly easy to score as well.

So long, Sissy Pacifists. :bye:

You need to jump in the presidential race - I'd vote for ya and i havent ever voted!

[CountryBob]

Jonyrotn,

Thanks for your service. I've worked in the Bronx for the past 11 years and have seen the difference you guys are making. Keep up the great work and BE SAFE!

As for the while gun control issue, I am personally opposed to guns and would never allow one in my house or near my children under any circumstance. I'm sorry but allowing my child to shoot an innocent animal is not teaching my child any kind of lesson.

That said, we've come too far in this nation to outlaw guns but we do need to ensure that those who have guns have some sort of training and have a thorough background check before they are able to purchase a gun.

And for all those who say that guns are a means of protection, if you need a gun to feel free are you really free?

Also, here's a list of school shooting worldwide wince 1996 and please notice a vast majority of them occurred in the U.S.

A Time Line of Recent Worldwide School Shootings (http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777958.html)

I'm sorry but allowing my child to shoot an innocent animal is not teaching my child any kind of lesson.
I disagree:
When I was a kid I was introduced to a BB gun at 10. It was so cool until one day I shot a bird and killed it. I cried and wanted the bird to come back to life but of course it didnt. This taught me a real life lesson that even though I was a kid I was responsible for my actions and death was final. Next, I got a 22 caliber and worked my way up to shooting groundhogs and crows. I decided that they were a nuisance and enjoyed every minute of it. i made that decision on my own. Dont you think that is important for a kid to figure that out? I never killed chickens or any more birds after that. later, I had many high powered rifles and pistols and have killed many deer. I eat all i kill but I have never been in trouble, would never kill a person or be violent. Do you think that I was lucky or did i learn valuable lessons early in life by my correct exposure to respecting guns and the lives that can be taken with them? I will offer the same chance to my son when he is old enough and if he dosent like it or mentally cant handle it - I would be just fine with it.
I respect your decisions about raising your family and I am sure they will turn out just fine without killing animals or having guns around. As for me, I am glad i was exposed to guns as a child - it has not harmed me in any way, shape or form.

[Jujubees2]

I'm sorry but allowing my child to shoot an innocent animal is not teaching my child any kind of lesson.
I disagree:
When I was a kid I was introduced to a BB gun at 10. It was so cool until one day I shot a bird and killed it. I cried and wanted the bird to come back to life but of course it didnt. This taught me a real life lesson that even though I was a kid I was responsible for my actions and death was final. Next, I got a 22 caliber and worked my way up to shooting groundhogs and crows. I decided that they were a nuisance and enjoyed every minute of it. i made that decision on my own. Dont you think that is important for a kid to figure that out? I never killed chickens or any more birds after that. later, I had many high powered rifles and pistols and have killed many deer. I eat all i kill but I have never been in trouble, would never kill a person or be violent. Do you think that I was lucky or did i learn valuable lessons early in life by my correct exposure to respecting guns and the lives that can be taken with them? I will offer the same chance to my son when he is old enough and if he dosent like it or mentally cant handle it - I would be just fine with it.
I respect your decisions about raising your family and I am sure they will turn out just fine without killing animals or having guns around. As for me, I am glad i was exposed to guns as a child - it has not harmed me in any way, shape or form.


So what you're saying is that you needed to kill innocent animals in order to know it's wrong to kill people? I just don't understand the logic. I think I can get the same point across to my kids without having them kill anything. I'm not saying that you shouldn't go hunting, even though I'm personally against it, but I don't think a child needs to be exposed to that in order to develop a sense of morality.

[CountryBob]

So what you're saying is that you needed to kill innocent animals in order to know it's wrong to kill people? I just don't understand the logic. I think I can get the same point across to my kids without having them kill anything. I'm not saying that you shouldn't go hunting, even though I'm personally against it, but I don't think a child needs to be exposed to that in order to develop a sense of morality.

Nope,I dont either. killing the bird was just a by product of having the gun and learning that lesson of death was a by product of the act committed. I dont think that a child needs to be exposed to that in order to develop a sense of morality. I am just saying that it is not always a terrible thing to give some kids a choice and if they do develop a sense of morality from that experience then it could possible keep them from gun violent acts as adults. That's all nothing more.

[TheMojoPin]

Yes, banning or cracking down on guns wouldn't do away with gun crimes or criminals with guns...but it's a false point to toss out "any criminal could still get a gun just as easily." No, they wouldn't. So many of them can get guns easily now because it's relatively easy to get guns. Cracking down wouldn't do away with them having guns, bt it would, in staggered degrees, make it more diffiult for many people inclinced to nefarious use of a gun to get one, even through illicit channels. Making it harder to get them legally would actualy make it harder to get illegally...not impossible, of course, but the constant dismissal as though nothing would change on the illegal side is just hyperbole.

[foodcourtdruide]

Yes, banning or cracking down on guns wouldn't do away with gun crimes or criminals with guns...but it's a false point to toss out "any criminal could still get a gun just as easily." No, they wouldn't. So many of them can get guns easily now because it's relatively easy to get guns. Cracking down wouldn't do away with them having guns, bt it would, in staggered degrees, make it more diffiult for many people inclinced to nefarious use of a gun to get one, even through illicit channels. Making it harder to get them legally would actualy make it harder to get illegally...not impossible, of course, but the constant dismissal as though nothing would change on the illegal side is just hyperbole.

I'd argue that it would be harder to get guns, but it may not significantly change the amount of individuals who obtain guns with malicious intent, as they'd be willing to use illegal channels to get them.

I think it would significantly reduce accidental gun injuries, because less guns would likely equal less gun injuries.

[envirogator]

I find the disparity of opinions really interesting especially since I moved to New Jersey from the midwest. Where I grew up hunting and guns were so much a part of my life I really never gave it a second thought. Nearly every kid in the neighborhood attended the hunter safety program when they turned 12 and almost all of my circle of friends received a shotgun or rifle for some birthday or Christmas usually by the time they were 13. I grew up in a suburban area but there were still farm and grassland fields within walking distance and we hunted in the fall. Thats just what we did. We all knew if we fucked up we'd lose our gun, the ability to hunt, and probably get our ass handed to us by our fathers. We respected our firearms and respected the responsibilities that we were afforded.

I understand the difference in more urban or densely-populated areas. I've met many of my neighbors who grew up in this area and people I work with and I've certainly had a harder time finding some "hunting buddies". It (hunting) is certainly (from my small, unscientific-poll) not nearly as prevalent and therefore, I believe, the concept of 'sport' gun ownership is more foreign. So the thought of just banning all guns or severely restricting gun ownership is an easy concept because that action does not affect that person but the following concept (less violence) does.

Just a couple of pennies worth of thought.

[TheMojoPin]

I'd argue that it would be harder to get guns, but it may not significantly change the amount of individuals who obtain guns with malicious intent, as they'd be willing to use illegal channels to get them.

I think it would significantly reduce accidental gun injuries, because less guns would likely equal less gun injuries.

It's a staggered effect. One of the main reasons guns are so prelevant here now is because they're to be had legally so (relatively) easy. The basis of their existence here is their largely legal accessability, which in turns feed their illegal accessibility. You dramatically change that legality, it will have a noticeable impact on the illegal side of things simply based on basic logistiscs and accessability. It's a false point when people automatically compare illegal guns to the smuggling of alcohol in Prohibition or to drug smuggling now...it is significantly more difficult and far less profitable to smuggle in massive volumes of firearms. That is, of course, not saying that illegal gun trafficking would cease...but to assume that everything would be business as usual, or that gun trafficking would instantly spring up to replicate or exceed the levels afforded by the basis of legal accessibility simply isn't realistic.

[MobCounty]

Really, the gun argument always boils down to trying to reduce violence.

Somewhere in the not so distant past we have exchanged our ability to give news at dinner time with the ability to glamorize violence at dinner time. Unfortunatly, it is easier to be famous by shooting a bunch of students, or driving over people attending a farmers market.

It's now more appealing than ever for a dejected self loathing person to take their frustrations out on the public. When the public shivers at the voilent acts, and the accompanying press releases by the assailants, it plants the seed in generations to come.

No one ban will solve the problem. Unfortunatly voilence out of context is very fashionable.

[K.C.]

-Federal ban assault weapons...no one needs them for private use
-Let the states be realistic about their gun laws.

And by that second one, I mean that there is a lot of outcry about owning weapons in rural areas and rural states for hunting purposes....a guy in Montana wants guns to hunt...if that's what that state wants, let that state have it.


In a state like New York, it should be very very difficult because of the city.

Up the penalty for carrying unregistered weapons to something outrageous right off the bat for first time offenders in certain states. If you're caught in New York or Pennsylvania carrying an unregistered weapon, you're going away for a long time.

Caught dealing weapons illegally...life in prison...there's no legitimate reason someone should be dealing weapons on the DL

And that's about the best you can do with the situation.

[Kris10]

No guns in my house, period.

[TeeBone]

You need to jump in the presidential race - I'd vote for ya and i havent ever voted!

Make sure you write-in, 'Teebone' with an (I) after my name for independent but yes I would love to run.

[SouthSideJohnny]

It's a false point when people automatically compare illegal guns to the smuggling of alcohol in Prohibition or to drug smuggling now...it is significantly more difficult and far less profitable to smuggle in massive volumes of firearms.

I respect your opinions Mojo, but I disagree with this. The laws of supply and demand apply equally across the economy, even to the black market. It's not profitable now because guns are so readily available. If guns become more difficult for criminals to obtain, their value would increase significantly, thereby making it much more profitable to the black market. Supply would then increase bringing the price back down to a point of equilibrium.

More importantly, in places where gun control laws are in effect, gun crimes increase after the ban takes effect. With the number of guns already owned by US citizens, it would take a LONG time for all of the guns to disappear.

Also, I don't want to our follow the lead of other countries, i.e. England. For anyone that missed yesterday's O&A show, try to find it and listen to the part where their guest was talking about England's gun laws. If a piece of shit breaks into your home and is ready to kill you, your spouse or your children, and you shoot the person, you go to jail. That's bullshit, and I agree with Ant: "Fuck England!"

[SouthSideJohnny]

Make sure you write-in, 'Teebone' with an (I) after my name for independent but yes I would love to run.

How great would it be if our country's president was named Teebone?

[Mike Teacher]

I'm sorry but allowing my child to shoot an innocent animal is not teaching my child any kind of lesson.

=

Yeah on this one; there are movies, books, articles, stories of the lessons learned in exactly this situation.

[TheMojoPin]

I respect your opinions Mojo, but I disagree with this. The laws of supply and demand apply equally across the economy, even to the black market. It's not profitable now because guns are so readily available. If guns become more difficult for criminals to obtain, their value would increase significantly, thereby making it much more profitable to the black market. Supply would then increase bringing the price back down to a point of equilibrium.

Supply and demand would taqke place on a certain scale, but again, the comparison to alcohol and drugs simply don't hold up to the simple physical logistics due to the size/weight/parts/ammo/etc. needed to mantain a fully functioning illegal gun market on the scale of Prohibition, or even "to have gun available for any criminal that wants to get a gun." Just assuming the demand would somehow defeat these basic physical difficulties is like arguing that if cars were suddenly made illegal, the illegal car trade would hit similar levels simply due to the demand. The current supply of guns in this country is likely based out of their legality...I'd guess most "criminal guns" started off as "legal guns."

More importantly, in places where gun control laws are in effect, gun crimes increase after the ban takes effect. With the number of guns already owned by US citizens, it would take a LONG time for all of the guns to disappear.

Time is the key. Nothing of this scale is immediate. I'm curious what you're specifically talking about in regards to "places where gun control laws are in effect, and where I could find some numbers to track along these lines. I'm not saying you're wrong...I'd just like a little more clarification.

That said, I'm not "for" the total outlawing of guns, mainly because I think it would never happen. I just got into this with my opinions on the idea that a massive illegal gun trade would spring up to fill any and all demands.

[Ritalin]

guns for all!

and no laws!

and no pants!

wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

If we give up our pants, only criminals will have pants

[A.J.]

I'm sorry but allowing my child to shoot an innocent animal is not teaching my child any kind of lesson.

I learned my lesson watching that episode of "Silver Spoons" when Ricky Schroder shot that deer.

[sailor]

violence rules, guns are cool, and we've got guns, in our school

[scottinnj]

violence rules, guns are cool, and we've got guns, in our school

Hey now teacher don't you fill me up with your rules, cause everybody knows that shooting is allowed in schools!

[FUNKMAN]

violence rules, guns are cool, and we've got guns, in our school

Hey now teacher don't you fill me up with your rules, cause everybody knows that shooting is allowed in schools!

happiness is a warm gun

at school

[jonyrotn]

If we give up our pants, only criminals will have pants
:lol::lol:

Hey deadly thread starter....Thanks for killing Charlton Heston..
If you want someone dead, ask Gvac to start a thread about him...

[jauble]

I'm sorry but allowing my child to shoot an innocent animal is not teaching my child any kind of lesson.

=

Yeah on this one; there are movies, books, articles, stories of the lessons learned in exactly this situation.

This is why I will only allow my future children to shoot criminal animals...I am thinking of starting with the one on the right (although the one on the left does look like a thief).

http://www.dan-dare.org/Dan%20FRD/TomAndJerryWallpaper1024.jpg

[Gvac]

I'm sorry but allowing my child to shoot an innocent animal is not teaching my child any kind of lesson.

Don't let 'em fool ya, they're not so innocent!

And I'm sure you'd feel differently if you grew up in a rural area.

Guys I know from down south, up north, and the mid-west all grew up hunting and fishing and have an incredible amount of respect for nature.

I've had family up in Vermont for years and there are towns where everyone drives a pick up truck with a gun rack on the back. It's not uncommon to see a dozen of them parked outside a supermarket with their shotguns or rifles sitting totally unprotected on the rack.

I've never owned a gun and don't have a desire to, but I'm solidly with Ron on this one: you can't ban everything you dislike or fear. I also believe that inanimate objects cannot be "good" or "evil." It's our use (or misuse) of them that determines which side of the argument the tool was used for.

[TeeBone]

How great would it be if our country's president was named Teebone?

I hereby would like to announce my intentions on running for President of these United States.

My platform - SIMPLE:
Personal responsibility
You are free to pursue whatever endeavors you choose, provided they are not harmful to any other citizen.

Citizenship will be more difficult to obtain under the somewhat-moderate tyrannical reign of Teebone. The naturalization process will be refined, making it more difficult to gain access to citizenship either through a more rigid and strict waiting/testing process as well as compulsory service in the army/navy/airforce or marines. Special exceptions for the Coast Guard may be permitted on a case by case basis.

I will impose a flat-tax system of taxation; whereupon every citizen, regardless of his or her current socioeconomic standing will pay 25% of their earnings to fund our government.

And let's just for a moment, expound upon the role of the government. This is also SIMPLE----Our government will become smaller. Under the guides of myself (Teebone) and my staff, we will put in place a system that turns power more toward the State and less toward the Federal. Say goodbye to the Great White Stead of Government galloping toward you to save you from yourself.

As for welfare in this country, let me say this-----It is time for the American people to get to work. That is the best form of welfare---WORKING. Gone are the days of federal assistance to bail you out of your troubles. There are consequences for actions and those consequences may be to work a little harder and struggle a little bit more. I've done, my family has done it and you can too. My family came from the most humble of beginnings and I am sick to death when I see where my money goes each year. WHO IS READY TO WORK?!

Foreign affairs, again, simple: We feed the world, we cloth the world, we police the world-----NOT ANYMORE. We paddle our own canoes under Teebone's watch and that means the notion of personal responsibility extends past our borders and into the rugged savagery of South America, Africa, Asia, Europe and .....well, we'll leave Antarctica as it is. Our dependency on foreign oil needs to be reexamined as well. Not only will we produce more refineries, drill domestically, but I will make it a point to fund new alternative resources for this country. Whereas the notion of Global Warming is a whimsical farce, I do see the need to re-explore nuclear energy production as well as natural gas, hydro and solar energy. The answer to reducing our needs in oil is nowhere closer to being solved as is my chances of actually winning the Presidency; but we have to start somewhere.

I have more ideas, but this is a good starting point. To sum up; I love the constitution and ALL of its amendments but we will make changes as is necessary. I believe individuals either make it or they don't for themselves. I believe we all need to be taxed the same. I believe we need to call ourselves Americans first and then Irish, German, African or whatever second and I think THE FUTURE IS NOW FOR TEEBONE!!!!!


I will need a running mate----anyone interested?



oh yeah--------POT (and only pot) will be legalized as well

[Kris10]

This is why I will only allow my future children to shoot criminal animals...I am thinking of starting with the one on the right (although the one on the left does look like a thief).

http://www.dan-dare.org/Dan%20FRD/TomAndJerryWallpaper1024.jpg

:lol:

[foodcourtdruide]

I hereby would like to announce my intentions on running for President of these United States.

My platform - SIMPLE:
Personal responsibility
You are free to pursue whatever endeavors you choose, provided they are not harmful to any other citizen.

Citizenship will be more difficult to obtain under the somewhat-moderate tyrannical reign of Teebone. The naturalization process will be refined, making it more difficult to gain access to citizenship either through a more rigid and strict waiting/testing process as well as compulsory service in the army/navy/airforce or marines. Special exceptions for the Coast Guard may be permitted on a case by case basis.

I will impose a flat-tax system of taxation; whereupon every citizen, regardless of his or her current socioeconomic standing will pay 25% of their earnings to fund our government.

And let's just for a moment, expound upon the role of the government. This is also SIMPLE----Our government will become smaller. Under the guides of myself (Teebone) and my staff, we will put in place a system that turns power more toward the State and less toward the Federal. Say goodbye to the Great White Stead of Government galloping toward you to save you from yourself.

As for welfare in this country, let me say this-----It is time for the American people to get to work. That is the best form of welfare---WORKING. Gone are the days of federal assistance to bail you out of your troubles. There are consequences for actions and those consequences may be to work a little harder and struggle a little bit more. I've done, my family has done it and you can too. My family came from the most humble of beginnings and I am sick to death when I see where my money goes each year. WHO IS READY TO WORK?!

Foreign affairs, again, simple: We feed the world, we cloth the world, we police the world-----NOT ANYMORE. We paddle our own canoes under Teebone's watch and that means the notion of personal responsibility extends past our borders and into the rugged savagery of South America, Africa, Asia, Europe and .....well, we'll leave Antarctica as it is. Our dependency on foreign oil needs to be reexamined as well. Not only will we produce more refineries, drill domestically, but I will make it a point to fund new alternative resources for this country. Whereas the notion of Global Warming is a whimsical farce, I do see the need to re-explore nuclear energy production as well as natural gas, hydro and solar energy. The answer to reducing our needs in oil is nowhere closer to being solved as is my chances of actually winning the Presidency; but we have to start somewhere.

I have more ideas, but this is a good starting point. To sum up; I love the constitution and ALL of its amendments but we will make changes as is necessary. I believe individuals either make it or they don't for themselves. I believe we all need to be taxed the same. I believe we need to call ourselves Americans first and then Irish, German, African or whatever second and I think THE FUTURE IS NOW FOR TEEBONE!!!!!


I will need a running mate----anyone interested?



oh yeah--------POT (and only pot) will be legalized as well

Good thing pot is legal, because after our economy completely falls apart due to your immigration policy and flat tax and the governments of countries we are no longer sending aide to collapse, we'll all need to get high to forget that the world is coming to an end.

But HEY! Atleast we're finally calling German's American-Germans rather than German-Americans.

[Snacks]

I personally dont understand why an person needs a gun. Only cops and individuals with similar jobs should have hand guns. everyday people should only be allowed to have a riffle. if you are hunting you only need a riffle, if you are protecting your home you only need a riffle. I hate guns and never understood people wanted them.

[A.J.]

I personally dont understand why an person needs a gun. Only cops and individuals with similar jobs should have hand guns. everyday people should only be allowed to have a riffle. if you are hunting you only need a riffle, if you are protecting your home you only need a riffle. I hate guns and never understood people wanted them.

Funny: when I'm overseas, I'm required to be trained in how to use a weapon because I'm a potential target. Yet when I lived in DC, then the murder capitol of America, guns were forbidden to me.

To be fair I'd be happy with a shotgun. If a guy breaks into my place and hears me rack that sucker, the chances are pretty good he'd leave before his body would get sprayed across my walls.

[high fly]

[QUOTE=Mike Teacher;1680851]I'm sorry but allowing my child to shoot an innocent animal is not teaching my child any kind of lesson.
[QUOTE]



Filthy animals - they're guilty of something.............

[TeeBone]

Good thing pot is legal, because after our economy completely falls apart due to your immigration policy and flat tax and the governments of countries we are no longer sending aide to collapse, we'll all need to get high to forget that the world is coming to an end.

Would you like to give some examples as to why that would play out as you see it, foodcourtdruide?
As I see it, we are on borrowed time as is and I can't imagine how we have made it as far as we have.
DOMESTIC POLICY FIRST, foreign affairs second.

TEEBONE 08'

[CaptClown]

I'm sorry but allowing my child to shoot an innocent animal is not teaching my child any kind of lesson.




Filthy animals - they're guilty of something.............

Being tasty and that is enough for me.

[foodcourtdruide]

Would you like to give some examples as to why that would play out as you see it, foodcourtdruide?
As I see it, we are on borrowed time as is and I can't imagine how we have made it as far as we have.
DOMESTIC POLICY FIRST, foreign affairs second.

TEEBONE 08'

I think you should also enforce a yellow ribbon magnet be put on the back of every SUV and newscasters who don't wear American flag pins be put on trial for tyranny.

The problems with our economy are not illegal immigration or welfare. Reducing our influence in the world would also be a bad idea, since we're reliant on foreign energy and we've deep in debt to other countries. We don't only "feed", "cloth" and "police" the world because we are charitable, we also do it to keep regions stable and to keep friendly governments intact.

Also, your post smells of Nationalism and you noted a few nationalistic policies. Quite frankly, nationalism solves absolutely nothing and discussing it as a major policy point distracts from real issues.

[badmonkey]

I personally dont understand why an person needs a gun. Only cops and individuals with similar jobs should have hand guns. everyday people should only be allowed to have a riffle. if you are hunting you only need a riffle, if you are protecting your home you only need a riffle. I hate guns and never understood people wanted them.

I don't own a gun and never have, but I did own a compound bow when I was younger. I went bow hunting with a roommate twice when I was in college. Hunting mostly involves freezing your ass off in a tree in the dark. I didn't like it, but some people do. We were hunting in bow season and he had brought a pistol with him. I asked him why he had the pistol if we were hunting with bows. He essentially said that it's a lot easier to aim a handgun in close quarters combat than a bow or a rifle. When you're hunting, you might find yourself in close quarters combat for your life with a mountain lion or a coyote or other wild animal that thinks maybe you should defend your food or become theirs. Some things in the woods carry rabies and they aren't always foaming at the mouth from a distance so they can be easily shot.

Rifles are not for close quarters combat and are only designed to protect your home if your attacker is 20-100 meters away. If you're protecting your home from a guy that's already in the house, you want a shotgun or a pistol. A rifle is a lot more powerful than a handgun and a bullet fired from a rifle is more likely to pass through a wall and kill one of your family members hiding in the room next door. That bullet same bullet fired from a rifle could also first pass through your attacker and then the wall and your family member.

You hate guns and that's your opinion, and that's fine. You are, however, dead wrong about the offensive/defensive uses of rifles and handguns.

[TheMojoPin]

Rifles are not for close quarters combat and are only designed to protect your home if your attacker is 20-100 meters away.

Uhhhhh...that's gonna be tricky to justify. Odds are you've just shot someone not in your house or not even on your property, or you've shot someone in the back fleeing it.

[badmonkey]

Uhhhhh...that's gonna be tricky to justify. Odds are you've just shot someone not in your house or not even on your property, or you've shot someone in the back fleeing it.

That's almost exactly my point.

[Jughead]

You'll shoot your eye out...

[TeeBone]

Quite frankly, nationalism solves absolutely nothing and discussing it as a major policy point distracts from real issues.

I could not disagree more.

[high fly]

I If you're protecting your home from a guy that's already in the house, you want a shotgun or a pistol. A rifle is a lot more powerful than a handgun and a bullet fired from a rifle is more likely to pass through a wall and kill one of your family members hiding in the room next door. That bullet same bullet fired from a rifle could also first pass through your attacker and then the wall and your family member.



How many shotguns and pistols fire a round that won't go through two layers of half-inch drywall?

[sailor]

How many shotguns and pistols fire a round that won't go through two layers of half-inch drywall?

exactly 3.

[CofyCrakCocaine]

If some guy was trying to break into my house, I'd just want to whip out a chainsaw and yank the ripcord on that son of a bitch. If the intruder has ears in his head he'll shit his pants and run away every time. You don't need bullets for that.

There a law against having a chainsaw in the bedroom?

[badmonkey]

How many shotguns and pistols fire a round that won't go through two layers of half-inch drywall?

It depends on the rounds they are firing and other factors. Even though most shotguns and pistols can fire relatively easily through a wall, the damage they can do on the other side of it will be severely diminished. Shotguns fire a shitload of pellets all at once and they spread out over a distance. That's what didn't kill Cheney's hunting partner in Texas with a head shot. If he'd shot him from point blank range, who knows if he'd have survived.
Rifle rounds fire with more power because they are designed to fire larger distances. When they go through the first wall, they may also go through the next one on the other side of the room. The bullet fired from a pistol is more likely to be stopped by the 2nd wall.

Again, I don't own any guns and I'm no gun expert, but a little common sense goes a long way.

[FUNKMAN]

when i was around 10 three guys came into our apt and held us up at gunpoint. my mom, dad, my 11 year old brother, and 5 year old brother. after they took off my dad went in the ceiling and quickly loaded his 32 snubnose and we ran down the three flights of stairs and out onto the sidewalk.

as we got outside a police car was just pulling up to the corner. a minute or two had passed between the three guys leaving and us getting outside. which in hindsight was really a good thing. I know my Dad was very upset but it was foolish to think about having a shootout. we stopped to tell the cop what had happened and he told us to go back upstairs. my dad had to go to the station and fill out a report but nothing ever became of it

[foodcourtdruide]

I could not disagree more.

Elaborate. What does it solve?

[Jujubees2]

I don't own a gun and never have, but I did own a compound bow when I was younger. I went bow hunting with a roommate twice when I was in college. Hunting mostly involves freezing your ass off in a tree in the dark. I didn't like it, but some people do. We were hunting in bow season and he had brought a pistol with him. I asked him why he had the pistol if we were hunting with bows. He essentially said that it's a lot easier to aim a handgun in close quarters combat than a bow or a rifle. When you're hunting, you might find yourself in close quarters combat for your life with a mountain lion or a coyote or other wild animal that thinks maybe you should defend your food or become theirs. Some things in the woods carry rabies and they aren't always foaming at the mouth from a distance so they can be easily shot.

Which is the way it should be. What kind of sport is it when you go and hide in a tree and wait for an animal to come along? I say it should be kill or be killed if you are hunting. You're going into their territory and should assume the risk that you may not make it out...

[earthbrown]

How many shotguns and pistols fire a round that won't go through two layers of half-inch drywall?

OK....home defense and shooting in general lesson....

Shotgun, use only low recoil 00 buck or even no6 shot.....it is close quarters enough that even no6 would kill someone, but be less likely to kill someone in another room.

Pistol, use only highly fragmenting rounds, or hollow points.

Rifle, last resort....


Chances of shooting at an intruder are slim, the chances of having an intruder in the house, shooting at him, missing, having the bullet pass through a wall and killing a loved one are slim to none.

I have 3 loaded guns in the house at all times, and a good watch dog, break in here and my hallway will have brain matter in it.


K

[earthbrown]

Supply and demand would taqke place on a certain scale, but again, the comparison to alcohol and drugs simply don't hold up to the simple physical logistics due to the size/weight/parts/ammo/etc. needed to mantain a fully functioning illegal gun market on the scale of Prohibition, or even "to have gun available for any criminal that wants to get a gun." Just assuming the demand would somehow defeat these basic physical difficulties is like arguing that if cars were suddenly made illegal, the illegal car trade would hit similar levels simply due to the demand. The current supply of guns in this country is likely based out of their legality...I'd guess most "criminal guns" started off as "legal guns."



Cars are would be impossible to hide their widespread illegal ownership and use....
Guns are hide able and portable, no one ever lifted their shirt to display an illegal car...

Criminal guns did start out as legal guns in many circumstances, HOWEVER, the nature of our "FREE" society lends us to certain dangers...how about stiffer sentences for people caught with illegal guns, or people who cannot legally own guns...

In a fairy-tale utopia banning guns would solve the problem, but this is the real world, pull your head out of your ass.

If the day ever comes that they are removing guns from private citizens, I may well die fighting to keep mine...and I would have killed for my right to bear arms in the aftermath of katrina too, when they disarmed private citizens protecting their family and property...

K



K






I personally dont understand why an person needs a gun. Only cops and individuals with similar jobs should have hand guns. everyday people should only be allowed to have a riffle. if you are hunting you only need a riffle, if you are protecting your home you only need a riffle. I hate guns and never understood people wanted them.


IT IS MY RIGHT TO HAVE THEM, as it is your RIGHT to not want them....

THis is like saying, I dont see the need for a car, so others should not have them....


K

[TheMojoPin]

Cars are would be impossible to hide their widespread illegal ownership and use....
Guns are hide able and portable, no one ever lifted their shirt to display an illegal car...

That wasn't the point of my hypothetical scenario. I was talking about the smuggling of guns into this country when people act like it would be as easily done and on a similar scale as drugs now or alcohol during Prohibtion. It had nothing to do with inidivudal people carrying guns they already owned.

Criminal guns did start out as legal guns in many circumstances, HOWEVER, the nature of our "FREE" society lends us to certain dangers...how about stiffer sentences for people caught with illegal guns, or people who cannot legally own guns...

I agree on the stiffer penalties for people who are caught with illegal guns, but I also think it should be illegal for certain people to not own guns. People with enough criminal offenses, anyone with criminal charges stemming from alcohol abuse, anyone with any kind of mental health history...no guns.

In a fairy-tale utopia banning guns would solve the problem, but this is the real world, pull your head out of your ass.

Are you serious? What did I just tell you in the other thread? This is how you respond to my post? I was presenting a hypothetical situation, where I expressly said that it was not something I thought was practical or likely to ever exist, yet this is how you respond. You're done.

[NewYorkDragons80]

That wasn't the point of my hypothetical scenario. I was talking about the smuggling of guns into this country when people act like it would be as easily done and on a similar scale as drugs now or alcohol during Prohibtion. It had nothing to do with inidivudal people carrying guns they already owned.
I agree that it's easier to control guns than drugs due to the sheer schematics involved in storing/hiding/smuggling a metal weapon with gunpowder. However, I think the argument the pro-gun posters were putting forward was that the criminal mind is constantly inventing new ways to circumvent the system. If they can do it with drugs and alchohol, they can do it with weapons. A 9mm is easily disassembled and can be stored in an infinite number of places in an automobile. Same goes for automatic assault weapons.

The bottom line is that guns are a constitutionally-protected right of the American public. The well-regulated militia is the force that armed citizenry were meant to check in the balanced ideals set forth by the 2nd Amendment.

[led37zep]

I'm a duck hunter and until I get REALLY good at throwing rocks I'd like to continue using my gun safely and legally.

[TheMojoPin]

I agree that it's easier to control guns than drugs due to the sheer schematics involved in storing/hiding/smuggling a metal weapon with gunpowder. However, I think the argument the pro-gun posters were putting forward was that the criminal mind is constantly inventing new ways to circumvent the system. If they can do it with drugs and alchohol, they can do it with weapons. A 9mm is easily disassembled and can be stored in an infinite number of places in an automobile. Same goes for automatic assault weapons.

I definitely agree that there would obviously be weapons smuggling, but even the scenario you're talking about doesn't compare to the sheer volume of "illegal guns" here now that were avilable in the first place legally. A nationwide ban would have a massive impact eventually and it would be nowhere near as easy for Joe Gangbanger/Joe Depressed Student/Joe Fed Up Wih His Family and Job/Shapopo Joe to get a gun through "illegal means" as it is now.

[foodcourtdruide]

I agree that it's easier to control guns than drugs due to the sheer schematics involved in storing/hiding/smuggling a metal weapon with gunpowder. However, I think the argument the pro-gun posters were putting forward was that the criminal mind is constantly inventing new ways to circumvent the system. If they can do it with drugs and alchohol, they can do it with weapons. A 9mm is easily disassembled and can be stored in an infinite number of places in an automobile. Same goes for automatic assault weapons.

The bottom line is that guns are a constitutionally-protected right of the American public. The well-regulated militia is the force that armed citizenry were meant to check in the balanced ideals set forth by the 2nd Amendment.

I'm curious by this statement. It's not a foregone conclusion that the second amendment explicitly says this. It's widely debated. The last time the supreme court addressed this issue was U.S. v. Miller in 1939 and trying to understand the meaning of that ruling makes me want to cry.

Anyway, point is I don't think it's as cut and dry and you're saying.

[Jujubees2]

I'm a duck hunter and until I get REALLY good at throwing rocks I'd like to continue using my gun safely and legally.

Why? What did the ducks ever do to you?

[led37zep]

Why? What did the ducks ever do to you?

You realize everytime they quack they're tell you to "go fuck your mother" Once I found that out...it was on!

Or were you looking for a serious reply? Cause I can do that too.

[Jujubees2]

You realize everytime they quack they're tell you to "go fuck your mother" Once I found that out...it was on!

Or were you looking for a serious reply? Cause I can do that too.

That works but I still don't see the sport in sitting in a blind and waiting for the ducks to come by so you can blow them away. Maybe if you did throw rocks it would be more of a sport.

[Snacks]

That works but I still don't see the sport in sitting in a blind and waiting for the ducks to come by so you can blow them away. Maybe if you did throw rocks it would be more of a sport.

i think they use birdshot. that makes it even easier.

[CofyCrakCocaine]

One of my friends is a big fan of guns and ammo. I don't understand it myself... he gets excited at the prospects of simply using live rounds on living targets. Squirrels, groundhogs... y'know, the bane of natural society in PA. He's a good guy, honest. You'd definitely want him backing you up during the zombie apocalypse. But I don't see the point or skill or fun or benefit of shooting something practically harmless like a squirrel.

I think more people get killed by vending machines in a year than people die due to squirrel-related accidents in 100.

[CountryBob]

I think more people get killed by vending machines in a year than people die due to squirrel-related accidents in 100.[/QUOTE]


Open season on vending machines!

[CountryBob]

Does a gun make the criminal?

or


Does a criminal make use of a gun?

[scottinnj]

Why? What did the ducks ever do to you?

They teased me with tastiness.

[NewYorkDragons80]

I'm curious by this statement. It's not a foregone conclusion that the second amendment explicitly says this. It's widely debated. The last time the supreme court addressed this issue was U.S. v. Miller in 1939 and trying to understand the meaning of that ruling makes me want to cry.

Anyway, point is I don't think it's as cut and dry and you're saying.
It's not a done deal, but I see the well armed militia as a separate entity from the citizens. Too often I see the argument that the Constitution provides for only a "well-armed militia," when there's a deliberate comma between militia and people.

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All in all, a good take on gun control (though from the admitted "nut" point of view of Penn & Teller)