6 Girls hold one other girl hostage and beat her for over 30 minutes.

[Justice4all]

Just so you know this is a video link, and some of the images will not be graphic but violent. (http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/crime/2008/04/09/grace.teen.attack.cnn)

Ok allow me to rant a bit here.
According to the news report there were 6 girls, from 14 until 17 who beat the shit out of this one 16 year old girl. She was invited over to someone house where the 6 girls waited for her. Two boys were there and they stood outside as lookouts to make sure no one was either going to come home.

As soon as she walked thru the door she was pulled into the home, beaten until she was knocked out. Revived then beaten again.

When interviewed the Sheriffs officer said they not only showed NO remorse but was wondering if, while be booked at the police dept., they would be able to make it back in enough time for cherrleading practice..

This makes me SO fucking disgusted I am almost sick. What's next? If it didn't work they would kill her? If you watch the video they take turns passing the camera around so they all get a shot at her.

If this had been my sister I would have disappeared for a day or two, never be located and when the girls who did this to my sister were alone...show them what a beat down REALLY would be like!
It does not matter why they did it, unless that chick raped or killed someone nothing is deserved of that. Nothing.

I really hope someone beats the shit outta them one at a time, so they know how it feels.

Hopefully if their parents are good they might put the fear of god into them.

And if the mother of the battered gifl sues for damages, physical or otherwise...I say good for her!



Seriously....what the FUCK is wrong some people?????????????

oh yes....and P.S. I think the guys who stood guard outside should also be held accountable in some way.

[marcpsych]

Just so you know this is a video link, and some of the images will not be graphic but violent. (http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/crime/2008/04/09/grace.teen.attack.cnn)

Ok allow me to rant a bit here.
According to the news report there were 6 girls, from 14 until 17 who beat the shit out of this one 16 year old girl. She was invited over to someone house where the 6 girls waited for her. Two boys were there and they stood outside as lookouts to make sure no one was either going to come home.

As soon as she walked thru the door she was pulled into the home, beaten until she was knocked out. Revived then beaten again.

When interviewed the Sheriffs officer said they not only showed NO remorse but was wondering if, while be booked at the police dept., they would be able to make it back in enough time for cherrleading practice..

This makes me SO fucking disgusted I am almost sick. What's next? If it didn't work they would kill her? If you watch the video they take turns passing the camera around so they all get a shot at her.

If this had been my sister I would have disappeared for a day or two, never be located and when the girls who did this to my sister were alone...show them what a beat down REALLY would be like!
It does not matter why they did it, unless that chick raped or killed someone nothing is deserved of that. Nothing.

I really hope someone beats the shit outta them one at a time, so they know how it feels.

Hopefully if their parents are good they might put the fear of god into them.

And if the mother of the battered gifl sues for damages, physical or otherwise...I say good for her!



Seriously....what the FUCK is wrong some people?????????????

oh yes....and P.S. I think the guys who stood guard outside should also be held accountable in some way.

Which is it?

[Dougie Brootal]

why did they do it? thats sick.

[Furtherman]

I saw that video to and it's just awful. Everyone one of those kids who participated should be tried as an adult. Kidnap and unlawful imprisonment charges as well.

Apparently the victim posted something on her myspace that one or more of the girls didn't like. They planned this attack.

One of the mothers of those arrested actually said something like "If you post things on the internet, you better be able to back it up", claiming her girl did no wrong. The mother should be beaten severely.

[marcpsych]

Just so you know this is a video link, and some of the images will not be graphic but violent. (http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/crime/2008/04/09/grace.teen.attack.cnn)

Ok allow me to rant a bit here.
According to the news report there were 6 girls, from 14 until 17 who beat the shit out of this one 16 year old girl. She was invited over to someone house where the 6 girls waited for her. Two boys were there and they stood outside as lookouts to make sure no one was either going to come home.

As soon as she walked thru the door she was pulled into the home, beaten until she was knocked out. Revived then beaten again.

When interviewed the Sheriffs officer said they not only showed NO remorse but was wondering if, while be booked at the police dept., they would be able to make it back in enough time for cherrleading practice..

This makes me SO fucking disgusted I am almost sick. What's next? If it didn't work they would kill her? If you watch the video they take turns passing the camera around so they all get a shot at her.

If this had been my sister I would have disappeared for a day or two, never be located and when the girls who did this to my sister were alone...show them what a beat down REALLY would be like!
It does not matter why they did it, unless that chick raped or killed someone nothing is deserved of that. Nothing.

I really hope someone beats the shit outta them one at a time, so they know how it feels.

Hopefully if their parents are good they might put the fear of god into them.

And if the mother of the battered gifl sues for damages, physical or otherwise...I say good for her!



Seriously....what the FUCK is wrong some people?????????????

oh yes....and P.S. I think the guys who stood guard outside should also be held accountable in some way.

Sorry, I tried to bold something from your post on my last post, and it didn't work.

I agree, but the one thing I was pointing out was the following:

"It does not matter why they did it, unless that chick raped or killed someone nothing is deserved of that. Nothing."

"I really hope someone beats the shit outta them one at a time, so they know how it feels."

So are you saying the perps should or should not be beaten up?

I do think that sometimes kids doing vicious things get off with less than they should because they are kids.

Good post.

[underdog]

After reading the title of this thread, I thought someone had tapped into my subconscious.

[Justice4all]

Sorry, I tried to bold something from your post on my last post, and it didn't work.

I agree, but the one thing I was pointing out was the following:

"It does not matter why they did it, unless that chick raped or killed someone nothing is deserved of that. Nothing."

"I really hope someone beats the shit outta them one at a time, so they know how it feels."

So are you saying the perps should or should not be beaten up?

I do think that sometimes kids doing vicious things get off with less than they should because they are kids.

Good post.

Well I think they SHOULD have the same crime done to them. THEY showed THEY deserved it. The victim did not. I am not saying have a mob go after them one at a time. But get ONE person to keep her cornered and have another one beat the snot outta her for the same amount of time that the victim was beaten. Sometimes it has to happen TO you for you to truely understand what you did wrong.
And yes they will get a slap on the wrist because A) they're kids and B) they're girls.
Sorry, not trying to be sexist, but it's true.

[marcpsych]

Well I think they SHOULD have the same crime done to them. THEY showed THEY deserved it. The victim did not. I am not saying have a mob go after them one at a time. But get ONE person to keep her cornered and have another one beat the snot outta her for the same amount of time that the victim was beaten. Sometimes it has to happen TO you for you to truely understand what you did wrong.
And yes they will get a slap on the wrist because A) they're kids and B) they're girls.
Sorry, not trying to be sexist, but it's true.

So is the purpose of this beating to instruct, deter, for vengeance, or all three? Do you think they would be more or less likely to engage in similar behavior after the revenge beating?

I agree that they will get less time for being girls.

[Dougie Brootal]

i think i should be able to rape all 6 of them, as punishment...





















































i know, im awful.

[Midkiff]

Stupid worthless monkeys.

May they all fucking die, and their worthless shit-sucking parents who don't care and failed to teach them. Fuck them in their fuck-holes.

[King Hippos Bandaid]

Gvac , here is your answer about Florida

[Justice4all]

So is the purpose of this beating to instruct, deter, for vengeance, or all three? Do you think they would be more or less likely to engage in similar behavior after the revenge beating?

I agree that they will get less time for being girls.

If they get off lightly...with little, if any, punishment...they most likely will do it again if THEY feel the need is there. And since someone pointed out that one of the parents already approved of their kids action, that tells me they are being given the thumbs up to 'kick anyones ass who pisses you off'.
Yes people tend to be violent but if that was the way of things either I would have killed people who did not deserve death a long time ago or I would have been killed myself (that is CERTAINLY a fact).
I would not say it is a revenge beating as much as I would say it would be more to deter.

Odds are they never had anything like that happen to them so they really can't connect with the victim.

I bet if some of them had something like that happen they would NOT have participated in the assault.

It would only be revenge if the victim helped in their beating.



And I would like to say, in addendum, that only the girls who are proud of what they did to the victim are the ones who MIGHT need/deserve the beating. There might be one or two (or more) who really look back at what they did and feel/will continue to feel horrible and remorseful.

If they get community service and no time served then the punishment would most certainly NOT fit the crime!

If they get say....a few months in a youth facililty or jail....that might scare the shit out of them to never do anything like this again.

But I am just throwing my thoughts out there off of the top of my head. I am a bit emotional on this topic (can you tell?)

[MobCounty]

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/HPO/10860.jpg

[Justice4all]

Gvac , here is your answer about Florida

That was fucking funny!
Bravo on the smooth merge of one topic with another!

[Freitag]

Mean Girls II: Even Meaner

[LaBoob]

Girls are nasty... they really know how to torture each other... this really takes it to the next level. Thinking about any parent defending this really disgusts me. My mother would have beat the living shit out of me if I ever got into trouble like this. Don't the parents know that it's their reputation on the line when their kids act like this? Don't they know that it reflects on THEM and their abilities as a parent?

We need more programs or classes on working out problems with fellow classmates... we need to set our kids up for the real fucking world, where you can't just kick someone's ass when they do something you don't like.

That said, they should absolutely be tried as adults and go to jail. The girl was unconscious, revived, then knocked back into unconsciousness... what would've happened if she died? or sustained brain-damage? Then those little bitches would've been happy, because yes, they got the ultimate revenge on a shit-talker.

[Dougie Brootal]

I am a bit emotional on this topic (can you tell?)

why did you get beat up by 6 girls once?





































please dont come back and say it happened to your daughter. i would really look like an ass.

[Friday]

girls are vicious.

ooh story time!

when i was about 7 or 8 i was lured into the tire playground by some older girls who pretended to want to befriend me. i lived right in front of the park and often went there to walk or play on my own as a kid.

the girls made me put dirty cigarette butts in my mouth and said awful things to me, then threatened me if i were to 'tell'. and these girls were only 12 or 13 years old. and that was in the 80's.

i cannot imagine having a teenage daughter these days... and i admire my friends who are able to raise good kids. it's not easy in todays climate.

[commish13]

The worst part about this video is that it's from Nancy fucking Grace. She's one of the worst people on television. Can't stand her.

[Justice4all]

why did you get beat up by 6 girls once?


please dont come back and say it happened to your daughter. i would really look like an ass.

No no don't worry Doug you're safe. I have no kids.
But I did get beat up as a kid.
Mostly by guys. But there was always that one girl who was hanging out with the 'cool guys'. You know the type.
Always dressed like a whore. Smoked. Drank. And, odds are, fucked most of them.
For their amusement once (again when I was in like 7th or 8th grade) they told her to start with me. And if I hit her back they would jump in.

not something fun to experience as a kid.


And it is something I feel so strongly about. Not because it was a one time experience that happened to me but on an overall basis.

Yea some people like to call me creepy or whatever and have whatever opinions about me. Most of the time I laugh at them. To me they are just a joke. They really don't KNOW me. Some may think they do, but people can be wrong. I know they will like to have a field day with what I am saying. But it is how I feel and there is really no right or wrong to it.

But one of the overall things I feel really strongly for is decency and fair play.

Yes I stumble and fall once in a while. It's called being human.
But when I look back on my life I will say, more often then not, when it came time to help someone I stepped up and did not step away. Yes some people may have not deserved it, but I did it. I really TRY to be a decent person every day. (TRY being the operative word here) In all my time on this earth I have never gone out of my way to be intentionally cruel to someone. I would be a BIGGER asshole if I knew how it felt to be on the receiving end and still went ahead and did it anyway. CTC said weeks ago there is ball busting and there is being cruel.
Ball Busting I can deal with and laugh at.
Being cruel I can't abide by.
I chose my board name for a reason. It is something that matters to me alot.
What happened to this kid was NOT fair. It was NOT kind. It was NOT decent.
And if these kids get away with it, either kharma will be VERY unkind to them or someone else will.

And odds are they will scratch their head and wonder "Well what did I do to deserve this??"

When that happens I hope someone will be there to remind them of that moment in time.


I hope you understand a little better why this hits a bit home for me.

[Jujubees2]

The worst part about this video is that it's from Nancy fucking Grace. She's one of the worst people on television. Can't stand her.

Agreed. I don't know what was worse. Watching the video or listening to Nancy Grace.

[Justice4all]

girls are vicious.


i cannot imagine having a teenage daughter these days... and i admire my friends who are able to raise good kids. it's not easy in todays climate.

Q!!! F!!! T!!!

I am glad something like this gets attention now.
With all the school shootings going on, you have to wonder where it starts from.
Maybe this is something that would have initiated a school shooting.


I just can't believe those cuntrags (sorry ladies....that is what I think of these chicks) were STUPID enough to post that all over the web and think they would get away scott free.

I guess it doesn't take a rocket scientist to be an asshole.

[Knowledged_one]

Cut their heads off

Much like, Ohio, Pennsylvania and Arizona, Florida is a #16 seed as far as states go, this place sucks

and here is a story of my own about florida and the dregs that live there - this happened to friends of mine

http://www.news-journalonline.com/NewsJournalOnline/News/Headlines/frtHEAD01033008.htm

Absolutely horrifying, really these people need to have their heads cut off

[Donnie Iris]

I'm not sure which is more disgusting; the girl getting beat or the fact that Nancy Grace has a show.

[Furtherman]

Cut their heads off

Much like, Ohio, Pennsylvania and Arizona, Florida is a #16 seed as far as states go, this place sucks

and here is a story of my own about florida and the dregs that live there - this happened to friends of mine

http://www.news-journalonline.com/NewsJournalOnline/News/Headlines/frtHEAD01033008.htm

Absolutely horrifying, really these people need to have their heads cut off

Holy shit... I never heard of that story. Just terrible. Good to hear that some are still behind bars, however, some will get out. Savages. Nothing more pathetic than a pissed off townie.

[Knowledged_one]

Holy shit... I never heard of that story. Just terrible. Good to hear that some are still behind bars, however, some will get out. Savages. Nothing more pathetic than a pissed off townie.

How about the three brothers beat up in the holding cell one of the guys who was going to testify against them

I will never go to Florida to many bad memories

What they dont say in the article is that I had two other friends who were there but instead of going to the beach with those guys they decided to stay in the room and play some video games or I would have 2 more dead friends

[Friday]

How about the three brothers beat up in the holding cell one of the guys who was going to testify against them

I will never go to Florida to many bad memories

What they dont say in the article is that I had two other friends who were there but instead of going to the beach with those guys they decided to stay in the room and play some video games or I would have 2 more dead friends

awful. just awful.

it's amazing what human beings are truly capable of.
one can only pray and hope that this kind of insanity does not cross their paths.

what a gruesome description to have to see about people you know and care about.

:(

[bigredd]

I saw that video to and it's just awful. Everyone one of those kids who participated should be tried as an adult. Kidnap and unlawful imprisonment charges as well.

Apparently the victim posted something on her myspace that one or more of the girls didn't like. They planned this attack.

One of the mothers of those arrested actually said something like "If you post things on the internet, you better be able to back it up", claiming her girl did no wrong. The mother should be beaten severely.

Parenting like that is what is ruining our country. Regardless Each and every one of those girls and boys should be punished severely. Otherwise they won't learn a damn thing, especially with parents like that. For Christ's sake you have to pass a test to drive a car but not to raise children.

[Bulldogcakes]

I'm not sure which is more disgusting; the girl getting beat or the fact that Nancy Grace has a show.

POTD

[keithy_19]

It's disgusting. Girls are really vicious. They hold grudges over nothing, where a guy, (a good guy) would call the person out on what wa sbothering them, maybe fight, and then move on.

I don't mean to sound like the head of the he man woman haters club, but it's true.

These girls, since it was a planned thing, they should be punished by the fulle xtent of the law. Perhaps be put into bad foster homes where they get beat nightly.

[thejives]

Stupid worthless monkeys.

May they all fucking die, and their worthless shit-sucking parents who don't care and failed to teach them. Fuck them in their fuck-holes.

Goddamit Midkiff... where's butthead?

How dare you.

[keithy_19]

Then again, maybe we should jsut let girls be girls...

[Midkiff]

Goddamit Midkiff... where's butthead?

How dare you.

I had that avatar from day 1.... thought I should get with the times.

[thejives]

I had that avatar from day 1.... thought I should get with the times.

I guess I can't fault you there.

Someday he'll be back though... I have faith.

[TheMojoPin]

I had that avatar from day 1.... thought I should get with the times.

With one of the oldest internet memes around.

[Midkiff]

With one of the oldest internet memes around.

Indeed.

[Donnie Iris]

POTD

I don't follow... What does POTD mean?

[PapaBear]

I don't follow... What does POTD mean?
Point of the day, maybe?

[King Hippos Bandaid]

Point of the day, maybe?

I believe it is post of the day

[Justice4all]

Ok, I'm impressed and happy...they're now being charged as adults. (http://www.wftv.com/news/15845521/detail.html)


And not only that...even they are under the age of 18...all their faces are broadcast on mug shots. The two guys who stood guard are also being charged and above all....with being charged as adults they now have to put on every job application when asked 'have you ever been arrested' they have to answer yes.

Good. Fuck all 8 of them...right in their ears!:clap::clap::clap::clap:

[LaBoob]

Yay... my wish came true. It's a National Grilled Cheese Day miracle!

[Dougie Brootal]

hahaha! the mug shots are PRICELESS!!!! i love the guy on top with his little "im 15 but im a gangsta from tha streetz" moustache! :lol:

[Snacks]

Ok, I'm impressed and happy...they're now being charged as adults. (http://www.wftv.com/news/15845521/detail.html)


And not only that...even they are under the age of 18...all their faces are broadcast on mug shots. The two guys who stood guard are also being charged and above all....with being charged as adults they now have to put on every job application when asked 'have you ever been arrested' they have to answer yes.

Good. Fuck all 8 of them...right in their ears!:clap::clap::clap::clap:

I always have a problem with the courts and charges. When a 15-16 year old girl kills or hurts someone then they consider them adults and charge them as one. but when someone has sex with a 15, 16, 17 yeard old then they are considered children. why is it that when its crime they are mentally able but when they are under 18 they dont know or understand when it comes to sex? its so random.

[DarkHippie]

One of the mothers of those arrested actually said something like "If you post things on the internet, you better be able to back it up", claiming her girl did no wrong.

Silly mom, dont you know that defeats the purpose of the internet?

This once again proves that teh internetz iz serius biznes

[Knowledged_one]

I always have a problem with the courts and charges. When a 15-16 year old girl kills or hurts someone then they consider them adults and charge them as one. but when someone has sex with a 15, 16, 17 yeard old then they are considered children. why is it that when its crime they are mentally able but when they are under 18 they dont know or understand when it comes to sex? its so random.

So do you think the friends of these people who reported it are rats?

[LaBoob]

I always have a problem with the courts and charges. When a 15-16 year old girl kills or hurts someone then they consider them adults and charge them as one. but when someone has sex with a 15, 16, 17 yeard old then they are considered children. why is it that when its crime they are mentally able but when they are under 18 they dont know or understand when it comes to sex? its so random.

That's a good point, but I don't necessarily agree...

I think expecting 15-17 year olds to understand the consequences of violence/murder is a little different than them understanding the consequences of sex... don't you think it's easier to manipulate that age group sexually than it is to manipulate them into murdering someone violently? I think it's instilled in us at a very early age (at least I hope it is) that murder is wrong... but sex isn't spoken about as much and I think it takes a longer time for kids to truly understand what it's all about.

[A.J.]

but sex isn't spoken about as much and I think it takes a longer time for kids to truly understand what it's all about.

Some adults too.

[Snacks]

So do you think the friends of these people who reported it are rats?

i dont believe in ratting like you do. I grew up in nj with people that handle their own business and dont involve cops. in this case i believe the girl herself or the parents reported it, so no its ok. Sorry, if i believe in taking care of things myself. when i was 14 and my brother was 16 we both got into a fight with 7 guys age 16-20. no one called the police not even my parents. my father and uncles took care of it themselves and the parents of these kids got a beaten and 2 of the kids over 18 got the shit beat of them. that made it even. believe it if you want, but if you lived in my area and people knew you ratted, you would get your ass kicked so quick.




That's a good point, but I don't necessarily agree...

I think expecting 15-17 year olds to understand the consequences of violence/murder is a little different than them understanding the consequences of sex... don't you think it's easier to manipulate that age group sexually than it is to manipulate them into murdering someone violently? I think it's instilled in us at a very early age (at least I hope it is) that murder is wrong... but sex isn't spoken about as much and I think it takes a longer time for kids to truly understand what it's all about.

teens no more about sex then we give the credit for. the reason i even bring this up is one of the guys who worked for me was dating a girl who initiated everything and lied about her age. when her parents found out he was arrested and nothing happens to the girl. she goes on with her life like nothing happend and he is now a sex offender. she said she was 19 and he was 24. turned out she was 16.

[LaBoob]

teens no more about sex then we give the credit for. the reason i even bring this up is one of the guys who worked for me was dating a girl who initiated everything and lied about her age. when her parents found out he was arrested and nothing happens to the girl. she goes on with her life like nothing happend and he is now a sex offender. she said she was 19 and he was 24. turned out she was 16.

Sorry to hear about your friend, but the laws are in place for the teens and younger children who aren't manipulative and who are truly innocent. Unfortunately, this is a loophole in the law.

And... it's not the first time I've heard this story... it's something that happens all the time. Guys need to be extra, EXTRA careful! Sometimes these whores even have ID... in THAT case, I think the guy should be let off, because it's by failure of the law that the girl obtained the illegal ID.

[Crispy123]

Cut their heads off

Much like, Ohio, Pennsylvania and Arizona, Florida is a #16 seed as far as states go, this place sucks

and here is a story of my own about florida and the dregs that live there - this happened to friends of mine

http://www.news-journalonline.com/NewsJournalOnline/News/Headlines/frtHEAD01033008.htm

Absolutely horrifying, really these people need to have their heads cut off

I am sitting in New Smyrna Beach right now. I didnt live here when that happened though, what a horrible, sensless fucking story.

Another sick twist. The paper printed that story recently before the spring break festivities kicked off and the Daytona Beach City Councel were pissed because they said it would be bad for tourism dollars.

[Knowledged_one]

i dont believe in ratting like you do. I grew up in nj with people that handle their own business and dont involve cops. in this case i believe the girl herself or the parents reported it, so no its ok. Sorry, if i believe in taking care of things myself. when i was 14 and my brother was 16 we both got into a fight with 7 guys age 16-20. no one called the police not even my parents. my father and uncles took care of it themselves and the parents of these kids got a beaten and 2 of the kids over 18 got the shit beat of them. that made it even. believe it if you want, but if you lived in my area and people knew you ratted, you would get your ass kicked so quick.

.

your life makes me sad, and your definition of a rat is out of whack with reality

So then let me ask the people that turned in the people that killed my friends in Florida and testified against the three brothers who led the attack are rats, well if they are rats then you have no fucking clue about how reality works

[Jujubees2]

i dont believe in ratting like you do. I grew up in nj with people that handle their own business and dont involve cops. in this case i believe the girl herself or the parents reported it, so no its ok. Sorry, if i believe in taking care of things myself. when i was 14 and my brother was 16 we both got into a fight with 7 guys age 16-20. no one called the police not even my parents. my father and uncles took care of it themselves and the parents of these kids got a beaten and 2 of the kids over 18 got the shit beat of them. that made it even. believe it if you want, but if you lived in my area and people knew you ratted, you would get your ass kicked so quick.

your life makes me sad, and your definition of a rat is out of whack with reality

So then let me ask the people that turned in the people that killed my friends in Florida and testified against the three brothers who led the attack are rats, well if they are rats then you have no fucking clue about how reality works

I guess one man's rat is another man's witness.

But I agree with Knowledged_one. I think we've moved beyond the Wild West mentality and should let the authorities handle criminal matters.

[Snacks]

your life makes me sad, and your definition of a rat is out of whack with reality

So then let me ask the people that turned in the people that killed my friends in Florida and testified against the three brothers who led the attack are rats, well if they are rats then you have no fucking clue about how reality works

you are such an asshole!!! i know more about reality then you will ever know. what the people did in florida is nothing like what i am talking about. that was a murder and the people who turned them in had no obligation to any of the killers. i never said anything about something serious like murder. i said fights, wearing an extra stripe on your military uniform, shit like that when it has nothing to do with you or is none of your business. your dead friends was a totally different situation

dont be sad for me, be sad for yourself. im sure you look in the mirror every monring! im sure if we compared our lives past and present i will gurantee i had a better life. i know what its like to have nothing and then have everything. i have definitley had a better social life. lets not compare because you will look like the mess you are!

[Snacks]

I guess one man's rat is another man's witness.

But I agree with Knowledged_one. I think we've moved beyond the Wild West mentality and should let the authorities handle criminal matters.

read everything i ever said about being a rat. it has nothing to do with murder or abuse. it about shit that people should mind their own business. i

[Knowledged_one]

you are such an asshole!!! i know more about reality then you will ever know. what the people did in florida is nothing like what i am talking about. that was a murder and the people who turned them in had no obligation to any of the killers. i never said anything about something serious like murder. i said fights, wearing an extra stripe on your military uniform, shit like that when it has nothing to do with you or is none of your business. your dead friends was a totally different situation

dont be sad for me, be sad for yourself. im sure you look in the mirror every monring! im sure if we compared our lives past and present i will gurantee i had a better life. i know what its like to have nothing and then have everything. i have definitley had a better social life. lets not compare because you will look like the mess you are!

I seriusly doubt that and i have said it a long time ago if you really want to compare things you have no clue, i can gurantee my life is better then yours

[TheMojoPin]

dont be sad for me, be sad for yourself. im sure you look in the mirror every monring! im sure if we compared our lives past and present i will gurantee i had a better life. i know what its like to have nothing and then have everything. i have definitley had a better social life. lets not compare because you will look like the mess you are!

KO can fly and lives in a house made of diamonds.

[spadanko]

If someone did this to my daughter, they would wish they were never born.

[Knowledged_one]

KO can fly and lives in a house made of diamonds.

and i use thin sheets of gold as toilet paper

[jauble]

When I first heard about the story the first thought I had was how dumb are kids today. I'm not that far removed from being a teenager, but I think I learned at a very young age that if you were going to do something illegal/bad in general you dont videotape it or tell people at school you are going to do it.

The worst part IMO of that video was when one of the girls yelled "dont hit the shelves." The fact that this little bitch was concerned that if the shelves got knocked over she might get in trouble.

[Midkiff]

If someone did this to my daughter, they would wish they were never born.

Understatement! I would murder each and every one of them, along with their parents and siblings.

[TheMojoPin]

I would chastize my daughter for putting the "pussy" in "pussy."

Of course, this is because my children will be raised as ninjas.

[jauble]

I would chastize my daughter for putting the "pussy" in "pussy."

Of course, this is because my children will be raised as ninjas.

I assume you and your partner will be adopting then or are you going to try and find a surrogate mother?

(I had to go with the gay joke...I apologize hoping for a sweep tonight maybe in 9 innings this time).

[scottinnj]

girls are vicious.

ooh story time!

the girls made me put dirty cigarette butts in my mouth and said awful things to me, then threatened me if i were to 'tell'.

The only things missing from that story is a video camera and Ron Jeremy. Then it'd be hot hot hot!!! You bad girl!

[scottinnj]

KO can fly and lives in a house made of diamonds.

and i use thin sheets of gold as toilet paper

So do I! I usually get a good rate if I buy a pallet of it at the Sams Club.

[Bulldogcakes]

I watched that tape and was as horrified and infuriated as everyone else was. But I also have a tiny little problem here. I don't know a scintilla of the 8 kids side of this story. There was some arguing going back and forth, they were discussing something. I would think there are two sides to any story. Did this girl do something so outrageous that they felt justified acting like such animals? Did she deserve an ass whooping for some reason?

I don't know, and neither does anyone else who rushed to judgement in this thread. Is this in any proper way to deal with a dispute? No, of course not. But there such a thing as "mitigating circumstances". It may apply here, or it may not. I don't have enough facts to know if it does or not. I also don't have enough facts to gather the townsfolk and burn the 8 kids at the stake, as most people seem to want to do.

[AnnoyedGrunt]

In my day we weren't dumb enough to tape this kind of thing. We'd just listen to the 9th and sing songs from 50's musicals.

[TheMojoPin]

I watched that tape and was as horrified and infuriated as everyone else was. But I also have a tiny little problem here. I don't know a scintilla of the 8 kids side of this story. There was some arguing going back and forth, they were discussing something. I would think there are two sides to any story. Did this girl do something so outrageous that they felt justified acting like such animals? Did she deserve an ass whooping for some reason?

I don't know, and neither does anyone else who rushed to judgement in this thread. Is this in any proper way to deal with a dispute? No, of course not. But there such a thing as "mitigating circumstances". It may apply here, or it may not. I don't have enough facts to know if it does or not. I also don't have enough facts to gather the townsfolk and burn the 8 kids at the stake, as most people seem to want to do.

Please list what you think she could be responsible for that would lead to a her deserving this.

[underdog]

Please list what you think she could be responsible for that would lead to a her deserving this.

She was asking for it.

[Knowledged_one]

Please list what you think she could be responsible for that would lead to a her deserving this.

Dinner was cold?

[SatCam]

I watched that tape and was as horrified and infuriated as everyone else was. But I also have a tiny little problem here. I don't know a scintilla of the 8 kids side of this story. There was some arguing going back and forth, they were discussing something. I would think there are two sides to any story. Did this girl do something so outrageous that they felt justified acting like such animals? Did she deserve an ass whooping for some reason?

I don't know, and neither does anyone else who rushed to judgement in this thread. Is this in any proper way to deal with a dispute? No, of course not. But there such a thing as "mitigating circumstances". It may apply here, or it may not. I don't have enough facts to know if it does or not. I also don't have enough facts to gather the townsfolk and burn the 8 kids at the stake, as most people seem to want to do.

Basically she was a cunt to all the girls and talked shit behind their backs. Of course she was not completely "innocent". Does that mean she deserves physical violence (by 6 ppl at the same time too)? If you can't deal with the trash talking in life then ............ :banning:





That said, I would've curb stomped anyone involved if that was one of my sisters...

OK, I wouldn't have the balls or the mental power to do something like that to someone else. But just thinking about it makes me want to act that way if the situation ever occurred.

[Midkiff]

Whatever she "said," she now is blind and deaf on the left side. That's probably permanent. Those girls deserve to die.

[Justice4all]

Basically she was a cunt to all the girls and talked shit behind their backs. Of course she was not completely "innocent". Does that mean she deserves physical violence (by 6 ppl at the same time too)? If you can't deal with the trash talking in life then ............ :banning:



a gang beating for talking smack about someone?

No.

a one on one fight?
Yes.

if they started talking shit about the victim then I say...'just girls being catty'.

But a pre arrainged attack on one person by 6 others?

Sick...just fucking sick.


Women can be 100 times more vindictive then men.

[joeyballsack]

First rule of Fight Club is you do not talk about Fight Club !

Second rule of Fight Club is you do not videotape Fight Club !

[Midkiff]

(CNN) -- Eight Florida teenagers -- six of them girls -- will be tried as adults and could be sentenced to life in prison for their alleged roles in the videotaped beating of another teen, the state attorney's office said Thursday.

Story here. (http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/10/girl.fights/index.html)

Good! May they all get life in prison! May they all be repeatedly violently raped by a giant black prison guard, on a regular basis for the rest of their lives!!!!

[Snacks]

Basically she was a cunt to all the girls and talked shit behind their backs. Of course she was not completely "innocent". Does that mean she deserves physical violence (by 6 ppl at the same time too)? If you can't deal with the trash talking in life then ............ :banning:





That said, I would've curb stomped anyone involved if that was one of my sisters...

OK, I wouldn't have the balls or the mental power to do something like that to someone else. But just thinking about it makes me want to act that way if the situation ever occurred.

a gang beating for talking smack about someone?

No.

a one on one fight?
Yes.

if they started talking shit about the victim then I say...'just girls being catty'.

But a pre arrainged attack on one person by 6 others?

Sick...just fucking sick.


Women can be 100 times more vindictive then men.

I could be wrong but i thought only one girl punched the other girl and the 5 other girls were watchng and the 2 boys were outside making sure no one went in.

the problem i have is them not letting her out and beating her up after she was unconcious already. the part about people surroundeing the fight to watch is common in high school fights. if this happend outside i bet the only one charged would have been the girl that beat the shit out of the other girl.

[jauble]

I could be wrong but i thought only one girl punched the other girl and the 5 other girls were watchng and the 2 boys were outside making sure no one went in.

the problem i have is them not letting her out and beating her up after she was unconcious already. the part of people surroundeing the fight to watch is common in high school fights. if this happend outside i bet the only one charged would have been the girl that beat the shit out of the other girl.

No there was more than one girl hitting her. The one girl is featured more in the video that was released, but there were multiple cameras involved.

[Midkiff]

I could be wrong but i thought only one girl punched the other girl and the 5 other girls were watchng and the 2 boys were outside making sure no one went in.

No, ALL the girls beat her. They took turns. They even passed the camera around so that nobody would miss out on their turn. Fuck them.

[RAAMONE]

No there was more than one girl hitting her. The one girl is featured more in the video that was released, but there were multiple cameras involved.

from what i heard they had one camera and passed it around so they could take turns filming and beating

edit: yeah what he just said

[Snacks]

No there was more than one girl hitting her. The one girl is featured more in the video that was released, but there were multiple cameras involved.


No, ALL the girls beat her. They took turns. They even passed the camera around so that nobody would miss out on their turn. Fuck them.

like i said i could be wrong and i was dead wrong. thanks guys! is there a place i can see the whole video?

[RAAMONE]

like i said i could be wrong and i was dead wrong. thanks guys! is there a place i can see the whole video?

i think i read today that it is up on youtube and is now in the public domain, so i guess it hasnt been removed...could be wrong though

[Dougie Brootal]

is there a place i can see the whole video?

why?

creep.




































































(let me know when you find that video.)

[jauble]

Apparently there may have been some camera phone vids as well.

[Snacks]

i was able to watch some of it on youtube with sound. she couldnt do anything to defend herself. they wouldnt let her go and kept her in a corner while 1 or 2 of them hit her after asking her questions. it is a lot worse then i thought and the main girl was crazy. i feel bad for the girl who got beat up.

you know this will be an after school special (if they still make them) or something like that.

[ScottFromGA]

the girl doing the majority of the hitting in the video is said to be a "Well mannered girl that everyone likes and has no issues or troubles with."

who gives a fuck if she was a saint, this video negates all shes done till NOW....

her and the rest of that crew should all have someone beat the shit out of each and everyone of them, videotape it and post it on the internet so they can be embarrassed and humiliated like this little girl has. My brother has a 10 year old that is really well mannered, great attitude and really smart in school. If she was involved in that situation, I'd still have the same feeling....

Am I saying people should mob together and punish these asses?


yep...make an example.

[Midkiff]

I say unlubed anal rape for all of them with a twelve-inch AIDS-infested black cock. I mean Idi Amin black. Also ATM with swallows, followed by violent slaps to the face.

http://fatherneo.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/amin.jpg


And I'm not trying to be funny. They really should do it.

[Mike Teacher]

Also ATM with swallows.

Whats so terrible about a cash machine and some birds?

[TheMojoPin]

I say unlubed anal rape for all of them with a twelve-inch AIDS-infested black cock. I mean Idi Amin black.

And I'm not trying to be funny. They really should do it.

Shocker.

Always interesting when people use "black" as if it's some horrifying term that makes something even worse.

[Knowledged_one]

Cut their heads off

[Dougie Brootal]

I say unlubed anal rape for all of them with a twelve-inch AIDS-infested black cock. I mean Idi Amin black. Also ATM with swallows, followed by violent slaps to the face.

http://fatherneo.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/amin.jpg


And I'm not trying to be funny. They really should do it.

im really turned on right now.

[Midkiff]

Whats so terrible about a cash machine and some birds?

hahahaha winner

:lol::lol::lol:

[Midkiff]

Shocker.

Always interesting when people use "black" as if it's some horrifying term that makes something even worse.

I'm sorry, how do you like your cock? Philipino?

[King Hippos Bandaid]

I'm sorry, how do you like your cock? Philipino?

I am thinking that Mojo meant no race was needed after you said Aids Infested

no need to add race to it

[Midkiff]

I am thinking that Mojo meant no race was needed after you said Aids Infested

no need to add race to it

Thanks for clearing that up.

hahahahahahahaha

[TheMojoPin]

I'm sorry, how do you like your cock? Philipino?

I'm sorry that you're so hopelessly a racist.

The worst kind, too. Not the ones that go out of their way to seem as genuinely and outrageously hateful as possibly...you're the type were something like the post above just comes totally natural to you. It's completely ingrained and you don't have any idea of anything different. It just made perfect sense to you to think that the worst possible punishment for a teenage girl was for her to be raped by a black man.

Yeah, and now will come all the naysayers crying that someone used the horrible word "racist"...fuck them if they're too blind to see how sad it is that some people have these sort of feelings and beliefs so deeply rooted in their psyche as a "natural" way to think and see the world that there is zero hope for them to ever evolve or change or be different up until the day they die.

I'm not even mad at you or anything like that. I feel sorry for you. You'll never know anything else.

[NewYorkDragons80]

Shocker.

Always interesting when people use "black" as if it's some horrifying term that makes something even worse.
What he said.


Why does the cock have to be filled with AIDS? I mean, it's not even HIV positive, it's AIDS. For a dude feeling the full effects of AIDS, this Idi Amin decoy you've conjured sure must have some libido to even be able to stand on his own 2 feet, let alone force his way into a jam session with an outwardly aggressive teenage girl

[Midkiff]

I'm sorry that you're so hopelessly a racist.

The worst kind, too. Not the ones that go out of their way to seem as genuinely and outrageously hateful as possibly...you're the type were something like the post above just comes totally natural to you. It's completely ingrained and you don't have any idea of anything different. It just made perfect sense to you to think that the worst possible punishment for a teenage girl was for her to be raped by a black man.

Yeah, and now will come all the naysayers crying that someone used the horrible word "racist"...fuck them if they're too blind to see how sad it is that some people have these sort of feelings and beliefs so deeply rooted in their psyche as a "natural" way to think and see the world that there is zero hope for them to ever evolve or change or be different up until the day they die.

I'm not even mad at you or anything like that. I feel sorry for you. You'll never know anything else.

I actually agree that there are people like that, but don't mistake my bad jokes for racism.


You're a real Larry Literal. Yeah, I hate blacks, that's why I study foreign languages including Swahili, and vacation in Africa. In fact, I speak several languages, and understand more about the various cultures of the world than anybody. My wife, and therefore my children, are minorities. I always put up with your crap about my sexuality, out-dated jokes, politics, et cetera, and I take it all in stride. But don't sit there and lecture me on deep-rooted racial prejudice, and tell me I need to die before the world will improve, you hippie bastard. You have no clue who I am.

Douchebag.

[Dougie Brootal]

this Idi Amin decoy you've conjured sure must have some libido to even be able to stand on his own 2 feet, let alone force his way into a jam session with an outwardly aggressive teenage girl

it is alot harder than it looks...

[Dougie Brootal]

on a side note,

alot of people seem to be really hard on midkiff just cuz of his hack lame old jokes and his racist sounding remarks, and i dont think thats cool. its just a message board and he's probably just using that gimmick to get a laugh. like i do with the gay jokes. lets just relax and not pc police everyone. it would be kinda dull if no one could make a joke that might offend anyone.


bash away.

[Knowledged_one]

You're a real Larry Literal. Yeah, I hate blacks, that's why I study foreign languages including Swahili, and vacation in Africa. In fact, I speak several languages, and understand more about the various cultures of the world than anybody. My wife, and therefore my children, are minorities. I always put up with your crap about my sexuality, out-dated jokes, politics, et cetera, and I take it all in stride. But don't sit there and lecture me on deep-rooted racial prejudice, you hippie bastard. You have no clue who I am.

Douchebag.

Dont be such a sensitive sally

Miss Larry Literal

[Midkiff]

he's probably just using that gimmick to get a laugh

Yes, thank you, somebody gets it. My stupid and outdated jokes are just that! Bad jokes!

[RAAMONE]

using that gimmick to get a laugh. like i do with the gay jokes.

keep telling yourself that

[Dougie Brootal]

keep telling yourself that

DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL!

[TheMojoPin]

You're a real Larry Literal. Yeah, I hate blacks, that's why I study foreign languages including Swahili, and vacation in Africa. In fact, I speak several languages, and understand more about the various cultures of the world than anybody. My wife, and therefore my children, are minorities. I always put up with your crap about my sexuality, out-dated jokes, politics, et cetera, and I take it all in stride. But don't sit there and lecture me on deep-rooted racial prejudice, you hippie bastard. You have no clue who I am.

Douchebag.

I'll "lecture" you as much as I want so long as you think it's fine to essentially take a big dump in the middle of a public forum and spew trash like the post I responded to. My opinions on that have nothing to do with the ridiculous board persona you've created for yourself. I know exactly what you are when you make the CHOICE to express yourself as explicitly as that not once, but twice, y'know, just so nobody missed it the first time around. Congratulations on trying so hard to piss on everything you just tried to use to "justify" those comments. "Come on, all I said was the the worst punishment for white teenage girls was having them be violently raped by a diseased black man! I VACATION IN AFRICA!!! IT'S OK!!!"

Oh, and I'm glad you take the perception of you as a knuckledragging, sex-obsessed internet perv "in stride." You've made the choices to put yourself out there with these types of repeated comments ad nauseum, so don't cry foul when somone is sick of your bullshit, and don't accuse people of being "too literal" when you're trying to express this garbage as much as possible and as explicitly as possible. You have nothing to hide behind because you've gone out of your way to put yourself out there.

[Midkiff]

Yes, like someone always tells me, since my jokes aren't gold, my entire life and everything I have ever done amounts to nothing.

Shut the fuck up, you god damn Matty Junior. Go fuck your mother. i will stop posting in this thread now, since Mikeyboy will be along shortly, I'm sure.

Mojo, you've lost your fucking mind. Maybe you're trying to get me riled up so I'll say something bannable. How about this: FUCK YOU, MOJO, AND THE YEASTY TWAT YOU DROPPED OUT OF OVER 60 YEARS AGO.

[Knowledged_one]

im not racist i have a friend who is black

[TheMojoPin]

Nobody put a gun to your head and forced you to post what you said. It was your choice, and it's a reflection of who you are.

[King Hippos Bandaid]

Yes, like someone always tells me, since my jokes aren't gold, my entire life and everything I have ever done amounts to nothing.

Shut the fuck up, you god damn Matty Junior. Go fuck your mother. i will stop posting in this thread now, since Mikeyboy will be along shortly, I'm sure.

Mojo, you've lost your fucking mind. Maybe you're trying to get me riled up so I'll say something bannable. How about this: FUCK YOU, MOJO, AND THE YEASTY TWAT YOU DROPPED OUT OF OVER 60 YEARS AGO.

:banning:

dont resort to mom jokes

have the intellect of atleast a 3rd grader


Shock Postery, midkif, you are above a silly truck driver or attention grabbing newb


Please dont fuck with Mojo.......


you will lose

[Furtherman]

a silly truck driver

http://www.momofreaksout.com/media/2/20061029-bjbear17.jpg

[Freitag]

Starvin. Got any popcorn back there?

[jauble]

Starvin. Got any popcorn back there?

Yeah I just got done making some. Help yourself.

http://www.homelyscientist.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/05/popcorn.jpg

[high fly]

Shocker.

Always interesting when people use "black" as if it's some horrifying term that makes something even worse.


It's the same adolescent compulsion to load up on profanity because otherwise they wouldn't be able to make their point.

Then when called out, they can be relied on to overreact and snivel about being the victim.

And that's pretty much what we've seen here, isn't it?

[Midkiff]

Nobody put a gun to your head and forced you to post what you said. It was your choice, and it's a reflection of who you are.

Kinda like when you chose to be a jerk for no reason.



And whoever said that above, I didn't fuck with Mojo. he fucked with me, as usual. I made my standard feeble attempt at humor, and here comes the humor police to tell me I am worthless.



This place really sucks.

[Midkiff]

It's the same adolescent compulsion to load up on profanity because otherwise they wouldn't be able to make their point.

Then when called out, they can be relied on to overreact and snivel about being the victim.

And that's pretty much what we've seen here, isn't it?

Well, when somebody just makes random stuff up about you constantly, how should you react? Anybody can make stuff up and cause problems. For instance, I could say you're a racist and a Nazi serial killer, even though it's probably not true. If I did that to you fifty or sixty times, you would probably get tired of it too.

[Freitag]

Anybody got some root beer to wash this popcorn down with?

[Jujubees2]

Anybody got some root beer to wash this popcorn down with?

Gotta love the frosty mug taste!

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1331/1465959504_a7c7c2b008.jpg

[underdog]

FUCK YOU, MOJO, AND THE YEASTY TWAT YOU DROPPED OUT OF OVER 60 YEARS AGO.

I had no idea Fez and Mojo were the same age.

[Bulldogcakes]

Please list what you think she could be responsible for that would lead to a her deserving this.

Maybe she's a White Sox fan.

A White Sox fan who thinks Joe Morgan is a genius.

Oh, and she also thinks the only way to judge a pitcher is to look at his W-L record.

[ChrisTheCop]

This place really sucks.

I thought that not too long ago.

But the good here outweighs the bad.
So youre not getting along with a few right now.

As much as youre willing to hear all sides, there will always be someone not willing to listen to yours,
or take seriously a subject you feel deeply about.

Think about the good things. Think about the laughs youve given and received.
Think about the things youve learned here that you may never have learned in life.

Seriously, I thought I was done here too, but you just have to think of it this way:
When its all good, its like a family.
When it sucks, hey--its just a fucking messageboard.

Itll get better.
So, you were saying?

[Justice4all]

I thought that not too long ago.

But the good here outweighs the bad.
So youre not getting along with a few right now.

As much as youre willing to hear all sides, there will always be someone not willing to listen to yours,
or take seriously a subject you feel deeply about.

Think about the good things. Think about the laughs youve given and received.
Think about the things youve learned here that you may never have learned in life.

Seriously, I thought I was done here too, but you just have to think of it this way:
When its all good, its like a family.
When it sucks, hey--its just a fucking messageboard.

Itll get better.
So, you were saying?


CTC....all jokes aside...you're a good man Charlie Brown!:thumbup:

[TheMojoPin]

Well, when somebody just makes random stuff up about you constantly, how should you react?

I didn't make up anything about you. I responded to and made a call based on all the content that you have repeatedly chosen again and again to post onto a public forum to represent yourself.

Quite frankly, I don't give a damn if you're pissed off about it. You started off here as a stellar example of the kind of posters that have driven away female posters en masse with your slobbering, pervy, horndog bullshit to the point that we have fewer regular female posters now than in the board's history...then you decide to top it off with posts where you go out of your way to say arguably the most pointlessly racist thing you could think off and then just try to brush it off with the tired and meaningless "oh, it was just a lame joke" excuse.

People are what they are and they say what they feel. I'm not saying you're some kind of raving hatemonger...it seems to me that you clearly are just naturally inclined to think lesser of certain groups of people, hence why you feel justifed to make that comment mulltiple times on a public forum and think it's justified on ay kind of level. You're "free" to post that kind of stuff if you want...but then anyone else is free to call you out on it.

I'm just pissed off seeing you make your board identity here helping drive away one social demographic of posters and then switching it so you might help drive off another.

[Snacks]

I didn't make up anything about you. I responded to and made a call based on all the content that you have repeatedly chosen again and again to post onto a public forum to represent yourself.

Quite frankly, I don't give a damn if you're pissed off about it. You started off here as a stellar example of the kind of posters that have driven away female posters en masse with your slobbering, pervy, horndog bullshit to the point that we have fewer regular female posters now than in the board's history...then you decide to top it off with posts where you go out of your way to say arguably the most pointlessly racist thing you could think off and then just try to brush it off with the tired and meaningless "oh, it was just a lame joke" excuse.

People are what they are and they say what they feel. I'm not saying you're some kind of raving hatemonger...it seems to me that you clearly are just naturally inclined to think lesser of certain groups of people, hence why you feel justifed to make that comment mulltiple times on a public forum and think it's justified on ay kind of level. You're "free" to post that kind of stuff if you want...but then anyone else is free to call you out on it.

I'm just pissed off seeing you make your board identity here driving helping drive away one social demographic of posters and then switching it so you might help drive off another.

do i need to be a mod to do what you usually do when people are fighting back and forth? well i will do it anyway.

ENOUGH, TAKE IT PRIVATE!!!

[Friday]

You started off here as a stellar example of the kind of posters that have driven away female posters en masse with your slobbering, pervy, horndog bullshit to the point that we have fewer regular female posters now than in the board's history....

i'm not sure you can really blame Midkiff for the uproariously gay populous here.

we chicks are pretty resilient towards creepy man moves, god knows we have to put up with so many. so i am pretty certain your accusation, in this instance, is rather unfounded.

we put up with you, right? :bye:

[Bulldogcakes]

do i need to be a mod to do what you usually do when people are fighting back and forth? well i will do it anyway.

ENOUGH, TAKE IT PRIVATE!!!

I always thought a mods job is much like a Cop's job. To break fights up instead of going around starting them with people you don't like. Actually (like a Cop) they really shouldn't take sides in disputes one way or the other, they should just keep the peace.

But hey, what do I know.