PA Primary Day

[K.C.]

Finally, this damn thing is over.

Zogby has it 52-42 for Hillary in his final poll. I think she probably pick up a little more and maybe pushes it close to 60-40, which is a strong showing.

Pennsylvania is really a horrible state demographic wise for Obama and he hasn't exactly done a lot to help himself there. The fact that he most likely will lose by double-digits in a state he spent her into the ground in shows some visible flaws in how he's conveying his message.


Obama by all accounts, though, still has at least a 15% lead in North Carolina. He really only needs one more big blowout win to lock this thing up, and Hillary doesn't have the resources or good will among red-state Democrats left anymore to really go into that state and flip it.

But make no mistake...these PA results will probably be an indicator of what Obama needs to address in his own campaign before facing off with McCain.

[HBox]

Zogby's lead is larger than what most polls have been putting out recently.

[K.C.]

Zogby's lead is larger than what most polls have been putting out recently.

The two that were up on RCP today had Clinton +10 (Zogby) and Clinton +7 (InsiderAdvantage) in the final days of polling.

And there's no way to factor in her organization in that state. If there's one thing that's a known fact about PA politics in recent years, it's that Rendell does deliver.

I'd be shocked if she doesn't win by double-digits. And if she doesn't, that's probably a sign to wrap this thing up and get out on an up-note at least, because if she can't deliver a blowout here, she won't anywhere else.

[scottinnj]

Drudge's website is claiming 52-48 advantage Hillary. Where does he get these numbers?

No link on the headline, by the way. I'm a bit wary.

[K.C.]

Drudge's website is claiming 52-48 advantage Hillary. Where does he get these numbers?

No link on the headline, by the way. I'm a bit wary.


I don't know...the exit numbers coming on TV, though, would suggest a wider margin.

[K.C.]

Too close to call...maybe Drudge was on to something, or maybe the networks are waiting a litlte.

[scottinnj]

Rove is saying on Fox that even if Hillary wins by 10 points, she will only gain on Obama in the delegate count at best 17 delegates, and Obama will still have a pledged delegate advantage of 123 delegates.

[scottinnj]

BTW, K.C., love the new sigpic. If Utley goes six games in a row hitting homers, I'm gonna go queer just for him.

[K.C.]

Rove is saying on Fox that even if Hillary wins by 10 points, she will only gain on Obama in the delegate count at best 17 delegates, and Obama will still have a pledged delegate advantage of 123 delegates.

It's not about the delegate count with her anymore.

It's about the popular vote, and winning big states by big margins. It's like Ron said on the show today 'Obama's lost in every state that's interesting except Illinois.'

She's looking for the popular vote.

If she wins the popular vote, and the traditional big democratic states, that'll be her argument to Super Delegates.



...that said, the networks are playing this as if it's going to be a small Hillary victory as opposed to a blowout. If that happens, she could be done. They just made a very important point in MSNBC that she needs money badly, and a slight victory won't help her raise it.

[epo]

Drudge's website is claiming 52-48 advantage Hillary. Where does he get these numbers?

No link on the headline, by the way. I'm a bit wary.

What he probably did is run a cross tabulation of the CBS exit polls which gets you to a 52 - 48% spread. Link to exit numbers here (http://election.cbsnews.com/campaign2008/exitPoll.shtml?state=PA&race=P&jurisdiction=0&party=D).

However....exit polls have been shitty so far. Hell, I'll take SurveyUSA or Public Policy Policy...who have both been absolute money this year.

[scottinnj]

What he probably did is run a cross tabulation of the CBS exit polls which gets you to a 52 - 48% spread. Link to exit numbers here (http://election.cbsnews.com/campaign2008/exitPoll.shtml?state=PA&race=P&jurisdiction=0&party=D).

However....exit polls have been shitty so far. Hell, I'll take SurveyUSA or Public Policy Policy...who have both been absolute money this year.

I'm settling in for a long night, epo, how about you?

It's almost dinnertime, then afterwards I'm smoking a MonteChristo with my WaWa coffee.

I love primary nights!

[epo]

I'm settling in for a long night, epo, how about you?

It's almost dinnertime, then afterwards I'm smoking a MonteChristo with my WaWa coffee.

I love primary nights!

Nah....this will get called for Clinton within the hour. The interesting thing will be the spread. When balancing the results, I'm keeping in mind that she had a 20%+ lead in Penn a month ago.

If she doesn't win by 10, I think she'll have a tough time staying in.

[scottinnj]

Fox News Just called it for Hillary.

[scottinnj]

Brokaw on MSNBC just called it for Hillary.

[K.C.]

The Clinton Brothers strike again!

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Wrestling/2007/03/28/demolition.jpg

If Barack loses Indiana and North Carolina, he could be fucked, because he might lose out the rest of the primary season in that scenario. That said, he's up about 15% in NC.

[TooLowBrow]

it looks like obama had the 3 biggest cities tho

[Heather 8]

Nah....this will get called for Clinton within the hour. The interesting thing will be the spread. When balancing the results, I'm keeping in mind that she had a 20%+ lead in Penn a month ago.

If she doesn't win by 10, I think she'll have a tough time staying in.

So far MSNBC's projecting an 8 point lead for her.

[K.C.]

it looks like obama had the 3 biggest cities tho

He was suppose to win Philadelphia...he's not winning it by anywhere close to the margin he should have.

Far be it from me to give credit to TV news men, but John King on CNN has made an excellent point.

Obama is winning Philadelphia, but it's not anywhere close to the margin he needed to give Democrats confidence that he can hold that state in November.

Pennsylvania is a toss-up in November if it's Obama vs. McCain...a poor showing makes him vulnerable in that state in the General.

The Clintons are going to paint this guy as Dukakis over the next two weeks. They're going to say he has an elitist attitude and if you look at places like PA, OH, and the working class, rust belt that the Dems need, he can't win there because he doesn't resonate with the populace.

And if they don't win there, the Dems don't win.

[epo]

Chuck Todd is great on the commentary. He projects that had Clinton's best she'll collect about 15 pledged delegates.

That being said, I'm reacting to this election the only way I can.....by giving Obama some more money.

[scottinnj]

I'm reacting to this election the only way I can.....by giving Obama some more money.


Yep, more from me too.

[K.C.]

Chuck Todd is great on the commentary. He projects that had Clinton's best she'll collect about 15 pledged delegates.

That being said, I'm reacting to this election the only way I can.....by giving Obama some more money.

You have to listen to what the Clintons are saying. It's not about the elected delegates with them anymore. They're going to beat the popular vote drum, the momentum drum, and the winning Democratic state drum.

And that's an argument, that if she wins most of these remaining states and comes out with the popular vote lead, she could actually make some in-roads with at the convention.

If I'm in the Obama campaign, I flood North Carolina....make that 15% edge a 25% edge. He needs to absolutely trounce her there.

[scottinnj]

The problem with the popular vote argument from the Clintons is that if Obama wins the nomination, most Hillary supporters will vote for Obama in the general election. So popular vote, schmopular vote. Give Obama the nod, unite the party and go after the undecided voters in November.

[K.C.]

The problem with the popular vote argument from the Clintons is that if Obama wins the nomination, most Hillary supporters will vote for Obama in the general election.

This is becoming more and more not the truth.

The exits tonight had the highest percentage of people on each side saying they wouldn't vote for the other candidate.

And it's only going to get more negative. Now maybe those feelings subside. Who knows.

I can say personally that I'll vote for whoever wins the Dem nomination. I'd vote for Obama between the two, but even if Hillary hit Barack with a crowbar while he was on his way to the podium to accept the nomination and ran in and stole it, I'd still vote for the Dem.

I'm not voting for McCain...my dislike of him knows no bounds.



unite the party

If anything has become clear, it's that the Clintons don't care about that at all. Nor should they yet...she can conceivably still win.

[scottinnj]

I'm not voting for McCain...my dislike of him knows no bounds.


Me neither. I just don't trust the guy.

But if Hillary gets the Dem nod, I will probably sit it out in November. Remember, I'm a recovering Republican, but there is nothing in the 12 steps to independance about voting for a Clinton.

[K.C.]

Me neither. I just don't trust the guy.

But if Hillary gets the Dem nod, I will probably sit it out in November. Remember, I'm a recovering Republican, but there is nothing in the 12 steps to independance about voting for a Clinton.

There's always this guy:

http://www.truthdig.com/images/eartothegrounduploads/RalphNader_aj.jpg

[Recyclerz]

Obama's inability to get enough of the white vote to close this thing down is starting to really get me worried. I'll keep some of my baser thoughts on why that is to myself for now, but if Obama can't pick them up in PA with four weeks to work the State and a big advantage in $ I'm starting to think he can't get them at all. Which is really starting to get to me. If he's the nominee (and it still looks that way) and Hilary's voters stay home or vote McCain, McCain wins another close election and the hole this country is in gets deeper for the next four years, regardless of how decent a human McCain may be.

If Hilary steals the nomination she loses 55-45 (in a best case scenario) and America gets four years deeper in the Bush abyss.

I'm not happy right about now.
:down:

[K.C.]

Obama's inability to get enough of the white vote to close this thing down is starting to really get me worried. I'll keep some of my baser thoughts on why that is to myself for now, but if Obama can't pick them up in PA with four weeks to work the State and a big advantage in $ I'm starting to think he can't get them at all. Which is really starting to get to me. If he's the nominee (and it still looks that way) and Hilary's voters stay home or vote McCain, McCain wins another close election and the hole this country is in gets deeper for the next four years, regardless of how decent a human McCain may be.

If Hilary steals the nomination she loses 55-45 (in a best case scenario) and America gets four years deeper in the Bush abyss.

I'm not happy right about now.
:down:

Obama has to put her on the ticket.

That's really the only way to get around it. These two sides are so hardened against each other, and it's only going to get worse that he just needs swallow the bitter taste of taking the woman who's dedicated that last four months to bludgeoning him, and making her his running mate.

And at least in this scenario, you can turn the swarm of Clinton attack techniques on McCain, while Obama takes the high road and looks like the dignified statesman.

[epo]

Clinton wins and she speaks first?

Somebody's afraid of looking bad.

[Coach]

Obama's inability to get enough of the white vote to close this thing down is starting to really get me worried. I'll keep some of my baser thoughts on why that is to myself for now, but if Obama can't pick them up in PA with four weeks to work the State and a big advantage in $ I'm starting to think he can't get them at all. Which is really starting to get to me. If he's the nominee (and it still looks that way) and Hilary's voters stay home or vote McCain, McCain wins another close election and the hole this country is in gets deeper for the next four years, regardless of how decent a human McCain may be.

If Hilary steals the nomination she loses 55-45 (in a best case scenario) and America gets four years deeper in the Bush abyss.

I'm not happy right about now.
:down:Excuse the pun, but he shot himself in the foot over his gun owners comment.

[Recyclerz]

Obama has to put her on the ticket.

That's really the only way to get around it. These two sides are so hardened against each other, and it's only going to get worse that he just needs swallow the bitter taste of taking the woman who's dedicated that last four months to bludgeoning him, and making her his running mate.

And at least in this scenario, you can turn the swarm of Clinton attack techniques on McCain, while Obama takes the high road and looks like the dignified statesman.

You might be right. My mindset is that the Democrats have to pick up the independents and marginal Republicans to not only win but to put together a governing coalition to start to fix all the problems W has gotten us into. My sense is that Hilary is a repellent to these people but having her as VP may be the least bad option at this point.

However, to be blunt, if racism, active or latent, is preventing Obama from picking up the "white, ethnic vote" in places like Ohio and PA then we're fucked.

[TeeBone]

All this fuss over two horribly unqualified candidates.
I love Democrats. They are so easy to rile up and rarely use logic in their incredibly closed-minded outlook on life.
They have great pot too.

Watching the dismantling of the party has truly been the best form of entertainment on TV for the last few months.

Let's hope they keep it up to Denver.

[scottinnj]

All this fuss over two horribly unqualified candidates.
I love Democrats. They are so easy to rile up and rarely use logic in their incredibly closed-minded outlook on life.
They have great pot too.

Watching the dismantling of the party has truly been the best form of entertainment on TV for the last few months.

Let's hope they keep it up to Denver.

Rush, is that you? Is this ShowerBench? JerseySean? Oh, wait, wait, I know....Earthbrown! Where ya been?


Edit: I forgot my Waka Waka....I'm kidding!

[TeeBone]

Rush, is that you? Is this ShowerBench? JerseySean? Oh, wait, wait, I know....Earthbrown! Where ya been?

If that came across too Limbaughish, I apologize.

[Recyclerz]

... They are so easy to rile up and rarely use logic in their incredibly closed-minded outlook on life.
....

So enlighten us, Zen Master. What are we not seeing in your world view?

[scottinnj]

If that came across too Limbaughish, I apologize.

No worries, I was just kidding....I forgot my waka waka until the edit.

[TheMojoPin]

Man, this is about as anti-climactic as possible.

Nothing changes.

Awesome.

[scottinnj]

Man, this is about as anti-climactic as possible.

Nothing changes.

Awesome.

"............and the band played on..............."

[TheMojoPin]

It's like a bad joke. At her best, Hillary was hovering around a 15 point lead. At his best, Obama was hovering being behind about 5 points. Both of those results would be pretty big difference makers. So where does it end up? Right in the middle of that.

Coma-inducingly boring.

[K.C.]

Looks like she'll win by 10-12 (still 15% outstanding, mostly Clinton ground).

If I said it once, I've said it....at least twice....


He has to deliver the knock out blow. Didn't do it in New Hampshire, didn't do it in California, didn't do it in Texas or Ohio, didn't do it in Pennsylvania.

...Indiana?

It is a huge concern that he has the lead, the momentum, and a 3-to-1 spending margin, and can't beat her in a state he had four weeks to campaign in.

And if she wins Indiana, she's in to the end, because she'll pick up West Virginia, Kentucky, Puerto Rico, and so forth, easily.

[Coach]

You might be right. My mindset is that the Democrats have to pick up the independents and marginal Republicans to not only win but to put together a governing coalition to start to fix all the problems W has gotten us into. My sense is that Hilary is a repellent to these people but having her as VP may be the least bad option at this point.

However, to be blunt, if racism, active or latent, is preventing Obama from picking up the "white, ethnic vote" in places like Ohio and PA then we're fucked.I don't think it is racism so much in Pa as it is his comment about gun owners and religion and the fact that they are trying to portray Obama as the New JFK.. Bad move in Pa.

[scottinnj]

Pat Buchanan just said it. The tide has turned, and it's now in Hillary's favor. She needs a lot of cash though.

[Recyclerz]

I don't think it is racism so much in Pa as it is his comment about gun owners and religion and the fact that they are trying to portray Obama as the New JFK.. Bad move in Pa.

Except that the numbers are pretty close to what they were in Ohio before that kerfluffle. I don't want to be Chicken Little guy shouting racism because my guy lost but the big #s going with Hilary (who I see as a very flawed general election candidate) and the exit poll data saying that 50% of her voters won't support Obama leaves it on the table, even if we don't think it is the primary motivating factor.

[Coach]

Except that the numbers are pretty close to what they were in Ohio before that kerfluffle. I don't want to be Chicken Little guy shouting racism because my guy lost but the big #s going with Hilary (who I see as a very flawed general election candidate) and the exit poll data saying that 50% of her voters won't support Obama leaves it on the table, even if we don't think it is the primary motivating factor.I will say that I saw a helluva a lot more activity yesterday and today in Scranton for Hil than I did for Obama.
Just saying..

[K.C.]

Except that the numbers are pretty close to what they were in Ohio before that kerfluffle. I don't want to be Chicken Little guy shouting racism because my guy lost but the big #s going with Hilary (who I see as a very flawed general election candidate) and the exit poll data saying that 50% of her voters won't support Obama leaves it on the table, even if we don't think it is the primary motivating factor.

White women vote in huge numbers for Hillary, largely because she's a woman and she's the first woman to really have a shot at winning.

It's pretty much as simple as that.

It's the same reason the black vote went from 50-50 before Iowa to 92-8 afterwards. Blacks are voting for Obama largely because they want to see a black nominee and it's a real possibility.


These two are so close on issues, it has nothing to do with issues, nor has this primary since Iowa. So it's become a race about both gender and race.

And fights involving those two things create a lot of tense feelings and reactionary anger, which is how you get those numbers.


Yes, there's probably a small pocket of racism in the electorate, as there is genderism in regards to Hillary. But at the end of the day, those numbers of people not willing to vote for the other Democrat will come down significantly.


One thing that would help ease the transition would be Obama picking Clinton as VP.

[epo]

I would be interested to see what the results would have been in an open primary.

Indiana is....that will be interesting.

[TooLowBrow]

hillary should have been a shoe in this election, much like kerry last election. unlike kerry who lost to a horrible speechmaker, hill has been losing to a great spokesperson.

if obama wins the primaries, i feel he wont be able to fight off the slandering of the republicans, who can make wind-surfing look like a wierd pussy-sport. i think the clintons are used to and ready for harsher attacks. if he won though, hill voters will vote for him instead.


however, i dont think non-obama dems would all switch to hillary if she won. some will even turn to mccain.

i think obamas relatively small # of connections amonst the world polititions would hinder his first term, but maybe hill would accept the vp role. his cheney/attack dog. she could do the terrible shit that needed to be done while he gave speeches and smiled.

[TooLowBrow]

Yes, there's probably a small pocket of racism in the electorate, as there is genderism in regards to Hillary. But at the end of the day, those numbers of people not willing to vote for the other Democrat will come down significantly.


women WILL vote for a black guy:smile:
blacks WILL NOT vote for a woman:nono:

[HBox]

Pat Buchanan just said it. The tide has turned, and it's now in Hillary's favor. She needs a lot of cash though.

I wonder why he'd say that? He's been saying the same thing every time anything remotely positive happens for Hillary. He just wants the bloodbath to continue.

[Coach]

hillary should have been a shoe in this election, much like kerry last election. unlike kerry who lost to a horrible speechmaker, hill has been losing to a great spokesperson.

if obama wins the primaries, i feel he wont be able to fight off the slandering of the republicans, who can make wind-surfing look like a wierd pussy-sport. i think the clintons are used to and ready for harsher attacks. if he won though, hill voters will vote for him instead.


however, i dont think non-obama dems would all switch to hillary if she won. some will even turn to mccain.

i think obamas relatively small # of connections amonst the world polititions would hinder his first term, but maybe hill would accept the vp role. his cheney/attack dog. she could do the terrible shit that needed to be done while he gave speeches and smiled.I think an exit poll in Pa said something like 20- 25% of dems would vote for McCain if Hillary won the nod.

[epo]

I think an exit poll in Pa said something like 25% of dems would vote for McCain if Hillary won the nod.

The most interesting numbers aren't within the party. I would love to see independents on the matchups. I would guess they look like:

McCain over Clinton
Obama over McCain

?

[K.C.]

women WILL vote for a black guy:smile:
blacks WILL NOT vote for a woman:nono:

They were willing to vote for her until Barack won Iowa. They won't vote for her if it's perceived she stole the election, but if she somehow won this outright, they would.

Plus Hillary would pick Obama as VP.

[ShowerBench]

Clinton can win back all of Obama's voters by putting him on the ticket in the VP slot. This includes nearly all black voters who will be just as excited about a black VP as President, and most of the young/new voters who are members of the Obama "cult of personality."

Clinton voters, on the other hand, are not voting for "her." They are voting on issues, save for about ten percent who are gender voters.

26% of Clinton voters in PA said they will VOTE MCCAIN if Obama is nominated. 19% said they would stay home. That's astounding.

If she were in the VP slot, the Democrats would win back very few of those because these voters are ONLY comfortable with Clinton or McCain as president and do not believe Obama is suitable/ready for the presidency. I'm one of them.

These truths are evident in tonight's exit polls. Obama can't win the general election because Clinton's defectors can't be won back. Clinton probably can because Obama's defectors can, provided he is on the ticket.

And before anyone brings it up, yes I would be alright with Obama as VP even if I don't think he is qualified to be president, because odds are good he wouldn't take over the presidency in the next 8 years, and after that I would probably think he'd be ready.

[TheMojoPin]

Clinton voters, on the other hand, are not voting for "her." They are voting on issues, save for about ten percent who are gender voters.

What are you basing this on besides being able to pull it out of your own ass?

[TooLowBrow]

If she were in the VP slot, the Democrats would win back very few of those because these voters are ONLY comfortable with Clinton or McCain as president and do not believe Obama is suitable/ready for the presidency. I'm one of them.
so you just wouldnt vote? that's mccains secret hope.


And before anyone brings it up, yes I would be alright with Obama as VP even if I don't think he is qualified to be president, because odds are good he wouldn't take over the presidency in the next 8 years, and after that I would probably think he'd be ready.

i think even 4 years would be enough if he buckled down

[TheMojoPin]

26% of Clinton voters in PA said they will VOTE MCCAIN if Obama is nominated. 19% said they would stay home. That's astounding.

25% of Obama voters said they wouldn't vote for Hillary. What you posted isn't a "win" for her...it's a potential serious problem for both Democratic candidates if they're not on the same ticket. Nice cherrypicking, though.

[epo]

Clinton voters, on the other hand, are not voting for "her." They are voting on issues, save for about ten percent who are gender voters.


What are you basing this on besides being able to pull it out of your own ass?

Don't worry...they aren't voting for her...they are voting for:

http://www.gopunditgo.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/09/clintonrage.jpg

[Recyclerz]

Clinton Voters: Anger is Good

http://www.slate.com/blogs/blogs/xxfactor/

Money quote:
Angry doesn't win general elections. It doesn't entice new voters into the process or beguile independents or heaven knows, invite Republican defections. But by definition, it has enormous negative power. And in the next couple of weeks, we're going to see how angry Hillary and her supporters really are.

[ShowerBench]

What are you basing this on besides being able to pull it out of your own ass?

I'm not seeing any hero worship among Clinton supporters that compares with Obama's, so I can't her defectors being won back if she doesn't top the ticket just by virtue of her being in the VP slot.

Most of her support comes from traditional Democrats (working class) who are voting for her because they want something done about their (specific) problems.

Obama hasn't connected with traditional Democrats: working class + older voters. His base is black voters, college kids, and affluent liberals.

The working class won't vote for him because they don't think he'll do anything for them, and the older voters think he's weird.

She has an easier time getting back his supporters, provided he's on the ticket, because they are attracted to his candidacy and they think McCain is a disaster.

[TheMojoPin]

I'm not seeing any hero worship among Clinton supporters that compares with Obama's, so I can't her defectors being won back if she doesn't top the ticket just by virtue of her being in the VP slot.

Most of her support comes from traditional Democrats (working class) who are voting for her because they want something done about their (specific) problems.

Obama hasn't connected with traditional Democrats: working class + older voters. His base is black voters, college kids, and affluent liberals.

The working class won't vote for him because they don't think he'll do anything for them, and the older voters think he's weird.

She has an easier time getting back his supporters, provided he's on the ticket, because they are attracted to his candidacy and they think McCain is a disaster.

AKA

It's completely your own opinion/assumption and not anything even remotely close to any kind of opinion or voting tracking.

[Doomstone]

I'm not seeing any hero worship among Clinton supporters that compares with Obama's

Maybe you're just not looking very hard. (http://www.hillaryis44.org)

[TeeBone]

So enlighten us, Zen Master. What are we not seeing in your world view?

We need a new thread for that, Ma'am.
But in a nutshell I would say three things:
-Countless daily examples of suppression of free speech by anyone who does not see things the way they do. (most recent example---see Colorado state legislature) You will be labeled a racists, evil or otherwise if you publicly disagree with a Democrat.
-View of welfare system which in my estimation has proven to be the most deliberate way to control minorities in this country through empty promises and failed programs that cost us all a fortune. If there's a problem - throw money at it, right? Don't worry that you are incapable of making it on your own, your government will be there to help you. These programs actually promote the expansion of government dependence and that is the biggest lie and awful series of acts ever perpetrated on the minorities of this country. (other than the whole slavery thing)
-Taxation view.------Get ready, because your party still make take the White House. Imagine the hell-storm that would be Hillary in the White House, Nancy Pelosi as the speaker of the House, Harry Reid and Ted Kennedy running the Senate and you and I in the 'other America' suffering the consequences. "What's in your wallet?"

Again, I could go on and on; but don't feel the need to. Those are the big three for me. Additionally, I am not saying that the Republicans are any better. I have no affiliation with either party - I jut really don't like any Democrat in our Federal system. They remind me of a pack of slugs.

[Heather 8]

You have to listen to what the Clintons are saying.

Don't wanna, can't make me.

It was a lot closer than I thought it would be (grew up in PA, so I know it's not the most tolerant state in the union), but damn shame it wasn't close enough to convince Hillary to give it up already.

[Recyclerz]

We need a new thread for that, Ma'am.
But in a nutshell I would say three things:
-Countless daily examples of suppression of free speech by anyone who does not see things the way they do. (most recent example---see Colorado state legislature) You will be labeled a racists, evil or otherwise if you publicly disagree with a Democrat.
-View of welfare system which in my estimation has proven to be the most deliberate way to control minorities in this country through empty promises and failed programs that cost us all a fortune. If there's a problem - throw money at it, right? Don't worry that you are incapable of making it on your own, your government will be there to help you. These programs actually promote the expansion of government dependence and that is the biggest lie and awful series of acts ever perpetrated on the minorities of this country. (other than the whole slavery thing)
-Taxation view.------Get ready, because your party still make take the White House. Imagine the hell-storm that would be Hillary in the White House, Nancy Pelosi as the speaker of the House, Harry Reid and Ted Kennedy running the Senate and you and I in the 'other America' suffering the consequences. "What's in your wallet?"

Again, I could go on and on; but don't feel the need to. Those are the big three for me. Additionally, I am not saying that the Republicans are any better. I have no affiliation with either party - I jut really don't like any Democrat in our Federal system. They remind me of a pack of slugs.

OK. My response and we can put this to bed or take it to another thread as you suggest.

Point One - I agree with the absolutist position on freedom of speech as do a lot of Democrats and Liberals (ACLU anyone?). If you're talking about the guy in CO who called Mexicans "illiterate peasants" here's the official "repressing" he's suffering

But House Majority Leader Alice Madden said today that Bruce won't be further sanctioned by legislative leaders.
"I don't know what the action would be. He has the right to say whatever he wants -- no matter how distasteful -- as long at it's not curse words," the Boulder Democrat said, according to the Rocky's "Live from the Legislature" blog

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/apr/21/bruce-mexican-workers-are-illiterate-peasants/

What I find most interesting about a lot of anti-political correctness Free Speech types is how quickly their feelings get hurt when there is blow back to their remarks. I think if you're prepared to deal with the consequences you can say anything you want.

Point Two - In the '70's you would have had a decent point to argue, I'm not sure why "welfare as lifestyle" is still an issue. There are still poor people but we taxpayers aren't subsidizing adults who "choose not to work" anymore. Kids maybe, but we as a society need somebody to push around the Boomer's wheelchairs so we have to spend something to keep them alive until adulthood.

Point Three - I'm assuming you're a Libertarian-type, which is fine, but you have to admit that your boy Ron Paul, despite raising a lot of cash and getting a lot media attention, didn't get all that many votes. Since David Stockman called shenanigans on the "Reagan Revolution" back in the early '80's it has been an open secret that the vast majority of Americans don't want most of their entitlement programs (Soc. Security, Medicare, Medicaid for old people and kids) cut and no mainstream politician is going to voluntarily try to cross them. The difference is that the Slugocrat Party says you have to pay for these things through taxes and the "Republic" Party pretends you don't and stays in power by professing their love for Ayn Rand now and leaving the bill for those around after they're dead.

[TeeBone]

OK. My response and we can put this to bed or take it to another thread as you suggest.

See what I mean------Easy to Rile up.
Thanks for playing along. It's so fun.

[TheMojoPin]

See what I mean------Easy to Rile up.
Thanks for playing along. It's so fun.

Are you kidding? His response was completely levelheaded and addressed every sinle one of your points clearly and without insults/flaming/picking a fight. How was he "riled" up?

[TeeBone]

Are you kidding? His response was completely levelheaded and addressed every sinle one of your points clearly and without insults/flaming/picking a fight. How was he "riled" up?

Oh Pin, you just will never get it.

His points were great; yours are always after the fact and irrelevant. You just don't get it.

[TheMojoPin]

Way to throw a tantrum because I asked you in a PM to shrink the size of your sig pic. Would have it been that hard to post it in the sig pic request thread and ask someone to size it down?

Slice down the current sig design so it doesn't fuck up the page layout.

[TeeBone]

Way to throw a tantrum because I asked you in a PM to shrink the size of your sig pic. Would have it been that hard to post it in the sig pic request thread and ask someone to size it down?

Slice down the current sig design so it doesn't fuck up the page layout.

I like my current sig, thanks.
Tantrum, Nah.....

[Recyclerz]

Are you kidding? His response was completely levelheaded and addressed every sinle one of your points clearly and without insults/flaming/picking a fight. How was he "riled" up?

Thanks, Mojo, but all our buddy TeeBone is trying to say is that if the InterwebZ can't be a place for smarmy condescension towards the basic tenets of informed citizenship then the Terrorists (tm) win.


Or something like that. I can't figure these weirdos out. :wink:

[TeeBone]

Thanks, Mojo, but all our buddy TeeBone is trying to say is that if the InterwebZ can't be a place for smarmy condescension towards the basic tenets of informed citizenship then the Terrorists (tm) win.


Or something like that. I can't figure these weirdos out. :wink:

Well said.
zzzzzzzzzzing