another lord of the rings question

[patsopinion]

so i watched the first one again(or like an hour of it)
and i couldnt help pull references to WW2

was this intentional?

who do the different races represent in relation to the story


the men from the south would be the turks whoz alligence was bought by the germans

would the hobbit be the jews who feld germany to help make the atom bomb(the bomb being the ring that ended the war)

thoughts?

[Ritalin]

I never put the Lord of the Rings together with WWII.

Is there a connection?

(and listen, I'm not very sharp about those things. I just realized that the Flintstones are based on the Honeymooners a couple of years ago. I'm not stupid. Just slow.)

[fezident]

Mojo or Doctor Manhattan will probably be able to connect the dots on this one.

They're good at this kinda thing.

[TheMojoPin]

Not me. LotR bores me to tears, so I don't know much about it.

[fezident]

Swing & a miss.

[EliSnow]

It was written between 1937 and 1949. So much of it was written during WWII, but I've laways heard that Tolkien was more influenced by prior history, mythology, and industrialization.

Tolkien did fight during WWI and many of the allegiances in that war were the same as during WWII.

Also, the One Ring and Hobbitsdid come up in the Hobbit which was written in the early 1930s. So I doubt that there was any connections for them to Jews or to the atom bomb.

[Furtherman]

The whole ring of power theme was very similar to a story Plato tells in "The Republic". It is about a simple farmer who comes into possession a ring of power, which also gives him invisibility. He uses this power to gain access to his king's castle, seduce the queen and eventually kill the king and take over.

Moral of the story: all men are corruptible.

Tolkien most likely was influenced by that tale.

[patsopinion]

it was written during the wat but wasnt originally published until 1955 is what i read

plenty of time to pull more adapatiations

its one of those storys that can be applied to a lot of things (see religon in lotr) on wikipedia



it just seemed like to many connections for it to be not influenced

[Thebazile78]

It was influenced by mythology. (On the very basest of levels, religion is a form of mythology. All the stories we tell to each other to reinforce desired behaviors, etc.)

Tolkien was a scholar ... linguistics, mythology, religion ... he "invented" Elvish. (No, I am not kidding. He apparently wrote an Elvish dictionary in his "down time" ... )

Whoever brought up Plato is most on the money, according to everything I've read about Tolkien.

If you want a series written as a reaction to WWII, try T.H. White's The Once and Future King ... a retelling of the Arthurian legends, based on Chretien deTroyes, among other sources.

The last book, The Book of Merlin, is overwhelmingly anti-war and anti-Nazi. You almost can't pick the story out from the propaganda ... really interesting, but if you've managed to read The Sword in the Stone, kind of a re-tread.

[Doctor Manhattan]

Mojo or Doctor Manhattan will probably be able to connect the dots on this one.

Not me. LotR bores me to tears, so I don't know much about it.

I also don't know much about LOTR, outside of the story presented in the movies, which I love. I have not read the book(s) - Okay, I do know Tolkien wanted to release it as one big book but the cost of doing that forced them to release it as 3 books over a period of time.

As stated already, some of it was written during the war so that had to have some influence. But I don't really know much about Tolkien's process

[Death Metal Moe]

The whole ring of power theme was very similar to a story Plato tells in "The Republic". It is about a simple farmer who comes into possession a ring of power, which also gives him invisibility. He uses this power to gain access to his king's castle, seduce the queen and eventually kill the king and take over.

Moral of the story: all men are corruptible.

Tolkien most likely was influenced by that tale.

http://www.mrdowling.com/images/701plato.jpg

This English shitdick is ripping me off! HOO HOO!

[TheMojoPin]

Tolkien was a scholar ... linguistics, mythology, religion ... he "invented" Elvish. (No, I am not kidding. He apparently wrote an Elvish dictionary in his "down time" ... )

http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/images/x0/x2399.jpg

Sounds like the work of...

http://homepages.slingshot.co.nz/~bites/ogre1.jpg

[Death Metal Moe]

yea...

Listen. I LOVE these books, Love The Hobbit and I think Tolkein is a genius, but a fucking language?

Fuck that. Plus, the Silmarillion is UNREADABLE.

[shodan]

I am not sure about all of the books, even though I have read them all a couple of times, but I believe Tolkien was on record saying that the "Scouring of the Shire" chapter at the end of Return of the King was suppose to symbolize the devastated state England was left in after the War.

[smiler grogan]

yea...

Listen. I LOVE these books, Love The Hobbit and I think Tolkein is a genius, but a fucking language?

Fuck that. Plus, the Silmarillion is UNREADABLE.
I'm on my third go at the silmarillion. I'ts tedious and pretenstious but I want to finish it.

[BeerBandit]

yea...

Listen. I LOVE these books, Love The Hobbit and I think Tolkein is a genius, but a fucking language?

Fuck that. Plus, the Silmarillion is UNREADABLE.

The Silmarillion reads like the old mythological epics. The Aeneid, The Iliad, The Odyssey, The Bible. Stories of how the world was created and ancients that lived in those times. It's a great read, but only if you like mythology because it does read a bit like stereo instructions.

[EliSnow]

Come on guys. It's been awhile since I read the Silmarillion but I did read it twice.

It's like reading the Bible for Middle-earth.

...

Which explains why it's hard to read.

[Thebazile78]

Come on guys. It's been awhile since I read the Silmarillion but I did read it twice.

It's like reading the Bible for Middle-earth.

...

Which explains why it's hard to read.

But it sure beats case summaries.

(Damn, now I know TWO people who've read the Silmarillion.)

[Thebazile78]

http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/images/x0/x2399.jpg


I actually have that on my bookshelf right alongside Klingon for the Galactic Traveler.

[meanmrbill]

so i watched the first one again(or like an hour of it)
and i couldnt help pull references to WW2

was this intentional?

who do the different races represent in relation to the story


the men from the south would be the turks whoz alligence was bought by the germans

would the hobbit be the jews who feld germany to help make the atom bomb(the bomb being the ring that ended the war)

thoughts?

My girlfriend wrote a paper dealing with this exact subject. However, I don't have her or the paper in front of me and I'm not nearly smart enough to relate to you the similarities myself. But I do think that Tolkein was directly influenced by WW2 and it definitely affected his writings in the LOTR.

[smiler grogan]

Come on guys. It's been awhile since I read the Silmarillion but I did read it twice.

It's like reading the Bible for Middle-earth.

...

Which explains why it's hard to read.
Read it twice did ya?
Good for you!
J/K

I just find the writing style tedious. I know its written like a reference book I enjoy going back and forth btw. books looking how names and places carry forth but I just can't keep the interest up for the silmarillion.

[Death Metal Moe]

I'm on my third go at the silmarillion. I'ts tedious and pretenstious but I want to finish it.

I finished it once. It was very hard to get through and that was back when I read a lot. I can't even imagine trying to get through it now.

[smiler grogan]

I'm on my third go at the silmarillion. I'ts tedious and pretenstious but I want to finish it.

wow did I butcher pretentious.

[BeerBandit]

Love the story of Turin Turambar. The cursed man wandering the Earth, everyone around him dies, caused the downfall of the hidden city, and he falls in love with his sister. Sad, but beautiful stuff.

[EliSnow]

I am not sure about all of the books, even though I have read them all a couple of times, but I believe Tolkien was on record saying that the "Scouring of the Shire" chapter at the end of Return of the King was suppose to symbolize the devastated state England was left in after the War.

I'm not sure about that. It could be true, but I thought that the Scouring of the Shire was a comment on technologies change on England, when it went from an agrarian society to an industrial one. Saruman/"Sharkey" had forced industrialization of the Shire which resulted in damage to the Shire and its ecology.

[EliSnow]

Love the story of Turin Turambar. The cursed man wandering the Earth, everyone around him dies, caused the downfall of the hidden city, and he falls in love with his sister. Sad, but beautiful stuff.

Agreed. One of my favorite parts of that book.

[BeerBandit]

I'm not sure about that. It could be true, but I thought that the Scouring of the Shire was a comment on technologies change on England, when it went from an agrarian society to an industrial one. Saruman/"Sharkey" had forced industrialization of the Shire which resulted in damage to the Shire and its ecology.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that I've read that he's denied any allusion to WWII whatsoever. It is just an overall anthropological allegory, the origins, progress and destructions of civilizations. Plus I believe it was to be looked at as an ancient mythology of England akin to the Greek and Roman stories as there really wasn't one.

[Thebazile78]

I'm not sure about that. It could be true, but I thought that the Scouring of the Shire was a comment on technologies change on England, when it went from an agrarian society to an industrial one. Saruman/"Sharkey" had forced industrialization of the Shire which resulted in damage to the Shire and its ecology.

The most common reading I've encountered is this one.

And now I've spent the last 30 minutes online at the Tolkien Society's website (http://www.tolkiensociety.org/index.html) trying to back up my original claim that Tolkien was a luddite ... and didn't find a goddamned thing.

[Midkiff]

yea...

Listen. I LOVE these books, Love The Hobbit and I think Tolkein is a genius, but a fucking language?

Fuck that. Plus, the Silmarillion is UNREADABLE.

If you watch the National Geographic special on LOTR, the Elvish is actually almost completely a real language - some crazy old Scandinavian language from some little dying town, where all the young folks leave, so when these old people die, the language will be gone. At least it's pretty real, versus completely fake Klingon shit.

[ChimneyFish]

Come on guys. It's been awhile since I read the Silmarillion but I did read it twice.

It's like reading the Bible for Middle-earth.

...

Which explains why it's hard to read.

Twice for me also, and I think it is a fantastic read.

It's exactly like the Bible. Just a collection of stories, from the Creation to the War of the Rings.

And besides the "Tale of the Nauglafring"(which only a small part is in The Silmarillion, the entire story is in "The Book of Lost Tales Part 2"{which I finally finished just recently}), I agree that the story of Turin Turambar is the best story in The Silmarillion.

Just curious, anyone read "The Children of Hurin"????

Was wondering if it was worth picking up.

[Thebazile78]

If you watch the National Geographic special on LOTR, the Elvish is actually almost completely a real language - some crazy old Scandinavian language from some little dying town, where all the young folks leave, so when these old people die, the language will be gone. At least it's pretty real, versus completely fake Klingon shit.

No.

Elvish is Elvish.

It has linguistic roots in/similarities with Old English, Welsh, Gothic and Finnish, but it's a separate entity, more like a linguistic cousin than anything else.

Calling something like Elvish or Klingon "fake" is fairly inaccurate.

Yes, both Elvish and Klingon were created for specific uses. But they were both created by linguists. (Really. Mark Okrand (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4553276866205869246) is a linguist. He wanted Klingon to be utterly unlike any language on the planet today...as a linguist, he could take the phonemes and quickly analyze them for synthesis into the "new" language.)

HOWEVER, like all "real" languages, they have specific grammatical rules, syntax and vocabularies. Just because everyday people don't use them in their everyday life doesn't make them any less "real."

Just look at Esperanto (http://www.esperanto-usa.org/en/node/3?fonto=gugloppc&gclid=CMT_mP70lJMCFQOrPAodsz4zAQ).

[smiler grogan]

I'll tell ya one thing this talk about the silmarillion has me jazzed to finally finish it.

[BeerBandit]

If you watch the National Geographic special on LOTR, the Elvish is actually almost completely a real language - some crazy old Scandinavian language from some little dying town, where all the young folks leave, so when these old people die, the language will be gone. At least it's pretty real, versus completely fake Klingon shit.

I think that you're actually referring to the Kalevala which is the Finnish Oral Tradition stories handed down from generation to generation. I think that there are only a couple of people who know the whole thing in it's original language and when they die, that's it.

[Midkiff]

No.

Elvish is Elvish.


I completely agree with your entire post, except the above. You can't just say "no." I didn't make it up. I didn't say it IS that language, I said it was based largely on that language.

I think that you're actually referring to the Kalevala which is the Finnish Oral Tradition stories handed down from generation to generation. I think that there are only a couple of people who know the whole thing in it's original language and when they die, that's it.

That was mentioned as well, but there is actually a town where the people use the language in normal life, not just for the stories.

[RingWraith]

I just like the movies.

But yes the books were influenced by the wars, especially WWI.

[BeerBandit]

I just like the movies.

But yes the books were influenced by the wars, especially WWI.
Inasmuch as art is a reflection of one's experiences.

[ravn816]

Another Simillrion Reader here. And I think I just butchered the spelling of the book. Oh, well. Good read once, Don't think I could do it 2X.

Bought Children of Hurin, haven't read it yet.

Although i'm sure the main influences to Tolkien, at least conciously we're not Naziism and WWI and II, you can absolutely tell that this series was a product of the times and environment, and I mean in a very blatent way. And while I understand that this was not really the intention of Tolkien, it certainly comes across that way.

[Thebazile78]

....

Although i'm sure the main influences to Tolkien, at least conciously we're not Naziism and WWI and II, you can absolutely tell that this series was a product of the times and environment, and I mean in a very blatent way. And while I understand that this was not really the intention of Tolkien, it certainly comes across that way.

The strongest reason it comes across that way to us today is because hindsight is 20/20.

We're pretty much imposing our own socio-historical experiences on the narration.

We can all agree that Tolkien's experiences as a soldier in WWI probably coloured his worldview in the long-run ... I mean, anybody who gets trench fever on the front lines and has to be sent home has got to have it impact them in one way or other ... but, the basic idea of it being solely an allegorical representation of the onslaught of Nazi Germany during WWII is inaccurate.

The stories have more depth than that and to use such a reductionist argument is a bit of a pity, really. But, of course, discussion like this is exactly why the Tolkien universe is so popular ... it can be interpreted in so many interesting ways - as an archetypical battle of Goodness and Evil; as a reaction to/allegory of the industrialization of Europe; an allegory of war, etc. - and it continues to generate discussion, interpretation and new thoughts.

[Death Metal Moe]

I just don't see much of a connection between the Rings Trilogy and WWII, sorry.

Read the books twice, just don't see it.

[EliSnow]

Another Simillrion Reader here. And I think I just butchered the spelling of the book. Oh, well. Good read once, Don't think I could do it 2X.

Bought Children of Hurin, haven't read it yet.

Although i'm sure the main influences to Tolkien, at least conciously we're not Naziism and WWI and II, you can absolutely tell that this series was a product of the times and environment, and I mean in a very blatent way. And while I understand that this was not really the intention of Tolkien, it certainly comes across that way.

The strongest reason it comes across that way to us today is because hindsight is 20/20.

We're pretty much imposing our own socio-historical experiences on the narration.

We can all agree that Tolkien's experiences as a soldier in WWI probably coloured his worldview in the long-run ... I mean, anybody who gets trench fever on the front lines and has to be sent home has got to have it impact them in one way or other ... but, the basic idea of it being solely an allegorical representation of the onslaught of Nazi Germany during WWII is inaccurate.

The stories have more depth than that and to use such a reductionist argument is a bit of a pity, really. But, of course, discussion like this is exactly why the Tolkien universe is so popular ... it can be interpreted in so many interesting ways - as an archetypical battle of Goodness and Evil; as a reaction to/allegory of the industrialization of Europe; an allegory of war, etc. - and it continues to generate discussion, interpretation and new thoughts.


Yeah, I'm having trouble finding allegories to Nazi Germany in the story. What elements of the enemy army match up to Nazi Germany, as opposed to WWI germany, or any other "evil conquering enemy" history as shown over time?

[patsopinion]

Yeah, I'm having trouble finding allegories to Nazi Germany in the story. What elements of the enemy army match up to Nazi Germany, as opposed to WWI germany, or any other "evil conquering enemy" history as shown over time?

the answer to this question is what the thread is about?

it the first few chapters it talks about how things that were learned were lost

the way that the armies were made

how placid and how reluctant everyone was to fight

the nights of rohan would equate to the us
(pro nazi people in the white house)

whatever

[cougarjake13]

theres too much thinking involved

[EliSnow]

the answer to this question is what the thread is about?

That does't answer my question at all. The thread's about how LOTR may be influenced by WWII, but when you started this thread, you mentioned the connections, but you really didn't list the actual connections. I'm asking for you to point them out, because they are not as clear as you may think.



it the first few chapters it talks about how things that were learned were lost

You're going to have be more specific here. I really don't see the connection here.

the way that the armies were made

Again, not too sure here, unless what you are saying is that Nazi Germany was building its military to everyone's dismay, but everyone was reluctant to challenge it, in part because they feared the seeing a repeat of WWI.

And you're comparing that to the way Sauron was massing his army in Mordor.

It's possible, but Germany had a large military build up from the time it became a soveriegn nation (in 1870, if I remember correctly) up until WWI, that was causing people dismay as well.

And indeed, throughout history, it's a common theme that when a country builds up their armies, the neighboring countries get nervous and either to choose to try to reason/make peace with that country, and or get ready for war.

how placid and how reluctant everyone was to fight

The King of Rohan, under a spell, was reluctant to fight. Gondor certainly wasn't. Plus, you'll see people reluctant to fight before every war.

Prior to WWII, a number of countries had clear memories of the horror that was WWI, and did not want a repeat. So they tried to do things differently than they did prior to WWI.

the nights of rohan would equate to the us
(pro nazi people in the white house)

I can see this comparison a little bit more, but it's a common theme in history/mythology to have some advisors of rulers counsel against war and/or being working towards their own ends and misleading the rulers.

Also, even if you see Wormtongue to be equivalent to nazi supporters in the US government, that still wouldn't equat Rohan to the US, given that there were Nazi supporters in the British government as well (and probably the French government as well).

[BeerBandit]

Clearly, Aragorn commanding the men on the Corsairs' ships is a direct allusion to Gen. Macarthur's forces in the Pacific.

Clearly.

[Death Metal Moe]

And didn't Liv Tyler command our forces in Northern Africa for a short time?

[BeerBandit]

And didn't Liv Tyler command our forces in Northern Africa for a short time?

At El-alamein, right?

[EliSnow]

And didn't Liv Tyler command our forces in Northern Africa for a short time?

At El-alamein, right?

I'm sure her name in Elvish means "Fox of The Sandy Dry Place."

[smiler grogan]

I'm sure her name in Elvish means "Fox of The Sandy Dry Place."

Sorry Eli, her name translates to "daughter of transgendered carp."

[BeerBandit]

I think I had read somewhere in the Appendices that Sauron had written a book. I think it was called Nîn-Dagor.



I couldn't find the word for "struggle"

[Mullenax]

*Spy Report*
*Spy Report*
Samwise Gamgee was in Indianapolis drinking the night before the Obama/Hillary primary...And he's gotten super fat.