Ok....get ready to flame me... Sex Change Treatment to Kids

[earthbrown]

Boston doctor offering sex change operations for transgendered youth....

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,356592,00.html


This is so against all levels of medical ethics that the doctor should have his license taken from him.

This is a procedure that cannot be taken back, it is 10000000X worse than tattooing a child, and the parents should be locked up for facilitating their children's behavior.


K

[A.J.]

Dr. Norman Spack, a pediatric specialist at the hospital, has launched a clinic for transgendered kids — boys who feel like girls, girls who want to be boys — and he’s opening his doors to patients as young as 7.

Spack is highly illogical.

[TheMojoPin]

This is hardly a B&W situation where you can say something is definitively "bad" or "good" or comparing it to getting a tattoo(?!?). This is something where people are, of course, flip out and say it's horrible and automatically wrong ad then other people are going to cheer it on and say it's totally fine...and reality lies somewhere in between.

There are plenty of children and people who, whether you want to accept it or not, were born into the "wrong" gender. Now, is this truly applicable to ALL people who claim this? No, of course not...but to always dismiss it always as just a "phase" or people who are confused simply doesn't jive with the extensive psychological studies that have shown that these people do exist.

There's little reason to assume tha this doctor is going to be doing thi kind of procedure left and right, nor is there any reason to assume parents would leap into it without any kind of care or concern or having thought up the situation and had their child seeing psychiatrists left and right. You're presenting this and thinking that people are just going to do it on a lark, and that's simply not true. No parent is just going to shrug and think, "hmmmm, I feel like changing my kid's gender today." This is something that happens after long periods of analysis and study.

[MadMatt]

Wow - I agree with Mojo. :blink:

This can be a tough decision, and it sounds like there is a lot that goes into the process and that Dr. Spack takes the job seriously.

That said, I also find it hard to believe a child knows what they really want for the rest of their lives. But I have always been a guy and never wanted to be anything else or felt out of place in my own skin (sexually, anyway).

I guess the most important part is that the decision is as informed as it can be and all of the right precautions are taken and extensive therapy is included.

However, I can't fault earthbrown and others who feel the same way.

[Furtherman]

We all start out as girls.

[Dougie Brootal]

i think that 7 is a little early to make that decision. i dont have any problem with some one having this procedure but i think they need to be at LEAST twice that age to make that decision.

[Yerdaddy]

Mat Staver, founder and chairman of Liberty Counsel, a legal charity affiliated with the late Jerry Falwell’s Liberty University, says

That's when I stopped reading. I suppose I should have stopped at "http://www.foxn"

[Zorro]

We all start out as girls.

So it's ok to tuck?

[earthbrown]

This is hardly a B&W situation where you can say something is definitively "bad" or "good" or comparing it to getting a tattoo(?!?). This is something where people are, of course, flip out and say it's horrible and automatically wrong ad then other people are going to cheer it on and say it's totally fine...and reality lies somewhere in between.

There are plenty of children and people who, whether you want to accept it or not, were born into the "wrong" gender. Now, is this truly applicable to ALL people who claim this? No, of course not...but to always dismiss it always as just a "phase" or people who are confused simply doesn't jive with the extensive psychological studies that have shown that these people do exist.

There's little reason to assume tha this doctor is going to be doing thi kind of procedure left and right, nor is there any reason to assume parents would leap into it without any kind of care or concern or having thought up the situation and had their child seeing psychiatrists left and right. You're presenting this and thinking that people are just going to do it on a lark, and that's simply not true. No parent is just going to shrug and think, "hmmmm, I feel like changing my kid's gender today." This is something that happens after long periods of analysis and study.

there is no scientific proof that there is a gay or transgender gene.

Therefore, the damage done to a child who is confused at 7-13 by sex-changing him or her, does not outweigh the risks of waiting until the child is 18.

The doctor and parents are deciding to TAKE AWAY the childs sex organs, this is criminal at least. If a 7yo cannot consent to sex at 7, it only makes sense that a child cannot consent to having his or her sex organs changed.

The long term implications of a sex change only further prove the point that it should be reserved for adults.



K

[TheMojoPin]

There are often very clear patterns of psychological behavior that can be tracked in children who are born with gender issues. Again, this isn't something that comes out of nowhere. Children that are just "going through a phase" or trying to be different" or "confused" exhibit VERY different traits than children that are actually born into gender issues.

The psycholoigcal situations of these children are often extremely traumatized and damaged by the time they reach adulthood due to their gender issues, so insisiting that they all wait until at least 18 until something, anything, can be done to address the issue seems self-defeating. You're assuming that the process of gender therapy or treatment or chage is automatically worse than what they have to go through confined to gender confusion all throughout their childhood and adolesence.

An nobody brought up a "gay gene" or "transgender gene," the latter of which is a ludicrous boogeyman that makes no sense.

[K.C.]

Gotta say I agree with earthbrown.

How is this decision reached? Is it the child saying they want it, or is it the parents saying "my child exhibits certain behaviors" or what?

I don't think any parent should have the right to alter their child's sex, and I don't think any child is clear thinking enough to make that decision yet.



The only possible benefit I would see of it, is if you're doing it as a child, would the hormone therapy in collaboration with puberty cause the person to be more naturally of the sex they changed to in appearence? No clue, but just a thought...


Nevertheless, the point about the decision still remains...this shouldn't be allowed.

[TheMojoPin]

Gotta say I agree with earthbrown.

How is this decision reached? Is it the child saying they want it, or is it the parents saying "my child exhibits certain behaviors" or what?

It's reached through extensive observation, therapy and psychologial analysis. People don't just stumble onto this kind of conclusion or decision or do it on a whim. This is usually the reult of parents noticing there is something very wrong with their child and that they are typically dangerously depressed or withdrawn.

The key thing here is that something this major at this age happens very, very rarely. Most parents don't want to do it. The tone of the article and this thread is, of course, this is happening all over the place and thanks to this clinic it's going to be happening even more. That's simply not the case. The clinic simply offers a professional outlet for people who wat to explore these options. No parent is going to just do this halfassed because, for one, it's their child, and secondly, it costs an insane amount of money.

[K.C.]

It's reached through extensive observation, therapy and psychologial analysis. People don't just stumble onto this kind of conclusion or decision or do it on a whim. This is usually the reult of parents noticing there is something very wrong with their child and that they are typically dangerously depressed or withdrawn.


I'm not trying to portray it as a "hey, I think I'm going to get my kid's dick cut off" type of matter a fact decision.

I understand the carefulness that goes into it you're talking about.

I guess I would have to say that I'd have a hard time believing any type of therapy or psychoanalysis would give you an long-term accurate reading of this particular aspect of a child, because there's so much more development to take place in the person's brain.

I know Early Childhood Development teaches that most people formulate most of who they are in the first three years of their lives...I buy that to a point...but again, I have a hard time believing, though, that you can really understand the nature of how a person understands their sexuality until they've actually developed their sexuality.

When I was six or seven years old, I understood I was boy, and I understood what girls were and why they were different, but I had no concept of what each gender role definitively meant on an emotional, physical, sexual, and so on level.

[TheMojoPin]

I'm not trying to portray it as a "hey, I think I'm going to get my kid's dick cut off" type of matter a fact decision.

I understand the carefulness that goes into it you're talking about.

I guess I would have to say that I'd have a hard time believing any type of therapy or psychoanalysis would give you an long-term accurate reading of this particular aspect of a child, because there's so much more development to take place in the person's brain.

I know Early Childhood Development teaches that most people formulate most of who they are in the first three years of their lives...I buy that to a point...but again, I have a hard time believing, though, that you can really understand the nature of how a person understands their sexuality until they've actually developed their sexuality.

When I was six or seven years old, I understood I was boy, and I understood what girls were and why they were different, but I had no concept of what each gender role definitively meant on an emotional, physical, sexual, and so on level.

But that's the difference...we're not talking about kids who are simply unaware of specific gender differences or are confused or "curious"...the kids that would end up at this clinic are clearly demonstrating severe and specific emotional and psychological distress due to their unique situation. They really are the tiny, tiny, tiny exception to the vast "norm." These are kids showing very unique patterns and "warning signs" as to what's going on with them.

This situations at this age are very rare statistically speaking, but they aren't difficult to spot if these kids are getting treatment for psych problems. The practices of this clinic aren't going nto be anything even close to being common. The people who get that to that point have been through a lot to get there.

[K.C.]

But that's the difference...we're not talking about kids who are simply unaware of specific gender differences or are confused or "curious"...the kids that would end up at this clinic are clearly demonstrating severe and specific emotional and psychological distress due to their unique situation. They really are the tiny, tiny, tiny exception to the vast "norm." These are kids showing very unique patterns and "warning signs" as to what's going on with them.

This situations at this age are very rare statistically speaking, but they aren't difficult to spot if these kids are getting treatment for psych problems. The practices of this clinic aren't going nto be anything even close to being common. The people who get that to that point have been through a lot to get there.

I'll have to look more in to what exact emotional things they look at in determining who would be a candidate.

I do also wonder, though, if it would open the door for it to become more common place. How long before someone tries to sue for discrimination for their kid not being allowed the procedure?

If I was making a decision on this, I'd want an assurance that something like that won't happen and make the whole thing a farce. Plus, I'd want to see the specific evidence that leads people to believe that this is an absolute necessity for children at this age.

I guess I could be convinced, but I'm not going to lie and say that my initial reaction isn't no.

[TheMojoPin]

I'll have to look more in to what exact emotional things they look at in determining who would be a candidate.

I do also wonder, though, if it would open the door for it to become more common place. How long before someone tries to sue for discrimination for their kid not being allowed the procedure?

If I was making a decision on this, I'd want an assurance that something like that won't happen and make the whole thing a farce. Plus, I'd want to see the specific evidence that leads people to believe that this is an absolute necessity for children at this age.

I guess I could be convinced, but I'm not going to lie and say that my initial reaction isn't no.

I'm not gonna pretend that this is some kind of perfect system or process...humans are involved, therefore it's inherrently flawed...my main issue is with how people (not necessarily you) react to these stories as if it's so automatically wrong and it must be stopped and the parents and doctors involved must be horrible morons, etc., etc..

To get to the point that these parents get to must be awful. How much agony must it be to hae a child that you love so and is supposed to be so full of life at those ages just asbolutely miserable with EVERYTHING. And this is so far beyond typical moodiness or tantrums...these are children who usually completely hate themselves and everything around them because of the crappy genetic hand they were dealt. This is something that is nowhere near being common...but it still happens, so why is it so awful that there's a clinic with specialists out there to present options or to help these parents and the children? It seems so presumptuous of people to just deem something that can do a lot of good and help for the right people as something that should be forbidden...it's like basically saying to the people involved, "just suck it up." How dare people who don't have to deal with this in any way whatsoever make such judgement calls? Aren't our differenes supposed to be such a proud defining feature of this country? If so, why do so many of us flip out over things like this when it has nothing to do with them and exists to help a very tiny part of the population that doesn't have many avenus of assistance available to them?

[NewYorkDragons80]

Boston doctor offering sex change operations for transgendered youth....

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,356592,00.html


This is so against all levels of medical ethics that the doctor should have his license taken from him.

This is a procedure that cannot be taken back, it is 10000000X worse than tattooing a child, and the parents should be locked up for facilitating their children's behavior.


K
This shouldn't be available until you're 18, regardless of parents' permission. The only exception would be those one in a billion people who lack a specific sex.

[scottinnj]

This shouldn't be available until you're 18, regardless of parents' permission. The only exception would be those one in a billion people who lack a specific sex.

Gotta go with that one. Until the child is of age, the parents if convinced the child really is a transgender, they should defend the child's rights not to be harassed and support the child until the child is old enough to fully understand the risks as well as the rewards.

I would say that hermaphrodytes should be an exception though.

[KC2OSO]

So it's ok to tuck?
Yes definitely but only when one is alone and sobbing in a dry bathtub.

[DarkHippie]

I'm a little embarassed, but I agree with Earthbrown. This kind of operation should be the patient's choice and no one else's--even a parent, even if its obvious. No seven year old can make that choice. He should at least wait until the child reaches the age of consent.

Plus medically, what happens when the child hits puberty? Will the hormone treatments still work properly?

[scottinnj]

Boston doctor offering sex change operations for transgendered youth....

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,356592,00.html


This is so against all levels of medical ethics that the doctor should have his license taken from him.

This is a procedure that cannot be taken back, it is 10000000X worse than tattooing a child, and the parents should be locked up for facilitating their children's behavior.


K

Why would we flame you on this one? You found a controversial story that would generate discussion, and offered your opinion to start the thread. You did nothing racist, homophobic or said anything personal about anyone else on the board.

You're getting good at this, you'll go far.

[sailor]

I'm a little embarassed, but I agree with Earthbrown. This kind of operation should be the patient's choice and no one else's--even a parent, even if its obvious. No seven year old can make that choice. He should at least wait until the child reaches the age of consent.

agreed. and what's the harm in waiting till the kid reaches the age of majority?

[TheMojoPin]

How many times a year do you think this clinic would actually do a full-fledged gender transfer procedure?

Do all of you opposed honestly think the only options are stick it out until you're 18 or get a complete gender change with surgeries and treatments?

The harm in doing absolutely nothing until 18 is that the years up until that age tend to be the most traumatic and damaging for people with severe sexual identity issues.

[IamFogHat]

We all start out as girls.

Only according to Dr. Wu.
http://www.mcfergesondvd.com/pics/jp/wong.jpg

[NewYorkDragons80]

Do all of you opposed honestly think the only options are stick it out until you're 18 or get a complete gender change with surgeries and treatments?
I think there are worse injustices out there than limiting sex changes to legal adults. Frankly, sex change legislation is right down there next to funding bigfoot search equipment on the old priority list.

[Yerdaddy]

The doctor and parents are deciding to TAKE AWAY the childs sex organs

No they aren't. I only read half that stupid fucking article but I caught the fact that they're not giving kids the chop. Jesus.

[A.J.]

Plus medically, what happens when the child hits puberty? Will the hormone treatments still work properly?

That was my concern about this story. I didn't know the impact such treatment(s) would have on a prepubescent.

[TheMojoPin]

I think there are worse injustices out there than limiting sex changes to legal adults. Frankly, sex change legislation is right down there next to funding bigfoot search equipment on the old priority list.

A "sex change" isn't the only freakin' option.

Look, no offense, but most of you against this have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. You're the equivalent here of those Catholic League people who protest and denounce things without doing even a bit of research into the topic you're so opposed to.

Shocking idea, I know, but the great part of opening a clinic specializing in these issues actually presents numerous options BESIDES actual sex changes.

I was a little taken aback when the Non-Nonsense Guide series put out this one, but now I see why. (http://www.amazon.com/No-Nonsense-Guide-Sexual-Diversity-Guides/dp/1904456642/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1211471100&sr=1-6)

[NewYorkDragons80]

A "sex change" isn't the only freakin' option.

Look, no offense, but most of you against this have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. You're the equivalent here of those Catholic League people who protest and denounce things without doing even a bit of research into the topic you're so opposed to.

Shocking idea, I know, but the great part of opening a clinic specializing in these issues actually presents numerous options BESIDES actual sex changes.

I was a little taken aback when the Non-Nonsense Guide series put out this one, but now I see why. (http://www.amazon.com/No-Nonsense-Guide-Sexual-Diversity-Guides/dp/1904456642/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1211471100&sr=1-6)
None taken. I'll grant you that you probably know more about this than I do, but I'll sum up my position this way; NO legal minor should be allowed to make irreversible changes to their body. Is that draconian?

[TheMojoPin]

None taken. I'll grant you that you probably know more about this than I do, but I'll sum up my position this way; NO legal minor should be allowed to make irreversible changes to their body. Is that draconian?

Not at all. What I'm saying is that procedures that extreme at that age are incredibly rare and the last part of a very long process.

[NewYorkDragons80]

Not at all. What I'm saying is that procedures that extreme at that age are incredibly rare and the last part of a very long process.
Fair enough. And if we're talking about hormone pills and a new wardrobe, that's between them and their doctor. But if there's a 15 or 16 year old (or younger) going under the knife, there should be a very real physiological condition before that can take place.

[TheMojoPin]

Fair enough. And if we're talking about hormone pills and a new wardrobe, that's between them and their doctor. But if there's a 15 or 16 year old (or younger) going under the knife, there should be a very real physiological condition before that can take place.

Very true.

[scottinnj]

Look, no offense, but most of you against this have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.
do not bore us with these facts of yours. we have gvac and he knows all!

[TheMojoPin]

do not bore us with these facts of yours. we have gvac and he knows all!

Yeah, but he's proof that this procedure actually works.

[scottinnj]

:lol:

[Yerdaddy]

Fair enough. And if we're talking about hormone pills and a new wardrobe, that's between them and their doctor. But if there's a 15 or 16 year old (or younger) going under the knife, there should be a very real physiological condition before that can take place.

I don't know but it's probably not legal to get the chop before you're 18. We all SHOULD know that the process of psychological testing and counceling prior to getting the chop and, considering this is a reputable medical institution, the process would be even more rigorous with minors, (and that Fox "News" is more than likely to ignore that part of the story).

This story isn't about the chop at all. It IS about procedures to delay the onset of puberty so that people who feel that they are other than their birth gender can modify their bodies' growth during puberty to have the chance at living a more normal life after their transition, should they choose to do it as an adult. The need for this technique arises simply because the biological process of puberty does not care about human concepts of ages of consent and the body produces testosterone or estrogen which cause the body to develop more masculine or femine trats during puberty. Now in Thailand, Brazil and other cultures that aren't so homophobic about other people's gender identity most transgendered people decide before puberty which gender they identify as and can begin hormone therapy before puberty which allows the the pubescent growth process to develop their bodies more akin to their chosen gender rather than their birth gender. That's why youv'e got so many hot trannies in Thailand and Brazil and in the US you've got Clay Aikin and Janet Reno.

For the individual, the abilty to start hormone therapy to modify the growth during puberty makes a huge difference in the quality of the rest of their life - the difference of looking like your chosen gender or not.

So while we're stuck in the idea that this is a decision only an 18 year-old can make and the law should enforce that ethic, nature has made that rule both arbitrary and destructive for the people involved.

[sailor]

You're the equivalent here of those Catholic League people who protest and denounce things without doing even a bit of research into the topic you're so opposed to.

isn't that the point of the internet?



i do think you're over-reacting a bit. it's not like (other than maybe the initial post) anyone was "so opposed to" anything. it was more: "hey, what do you think about x?" "eh, i think x is bad."

[A.J.]

Look, no offense, but most of you against this have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.

I find it funny that Mojo knows so much about sex change and gender identification issues.

...or do I find it SEXY?

[TheMojoPin]

Meeeee-YOW.

I'm like a puzzle wrapped in a vagina tied off with a penis.

[PhishHead]

I find it funny that Mojo knows so much about sex change and gender identification issues.

...or do I find it SEXY?

he has confessed his love for me many times. Maybe this hits a little close to home for him??

BTW I agree with Mojo on this, I don't believe they are looking to do the sex changes right away no matter what. I think the key to this whole thing is he is offering them counseling and then the drugs to stop hormones but I doubt he is just giving the drugs to everyone who walks in the whole premise behind this entire thing is that he is giving them COUNSELING. The counseling is the key as many therapists shy away from this type of counseling because it is so in-depth and needs alot of attention.