Ron slightly confused

[Serpico1103]

On Monday, Ron kept confusing the separate issues of being gay and acting upon those feelings. He would acknowledge that people are born with preferences, but then say being gay is a choice. The choice is acting on the homosexual urges, not the urge itself.
You could say people in wheelchairs choose to be in wheelchairs. They could simply crawl up stairs. People are born with the genes to be short, tall, fat, skinny, athletic, intelligent, impulsive, cautious. Yet, we insist that sexuality is the one trait that consistent. All of us are born into a world of gray, not black and white.
I am not attracted to men. It is not my choice to not be attracted to them. I am attracted to women. I could choose to not act on that attraction, but I can not choose the object of my attraction.

[Ritalin]

I follow what you're saying, and I submit this (which I was thinking about while Ron was having that conversation):

I have a friend Duane, who is gay. He has an identical twin brother, who is straight. Is Duane choosing to be gay, or is his brother choosing to be straight?

(it's true about Duane and his brother, btw)

[mikeyboy]

On Monday, Ron kept confusing the separate issues of being gay and acting upon those feelings. He would acknowledge that people are born with preferences, but then say being gay is a choice. The choice is acting on the homosexual urges, not the urge itself.
You could say people in wheelchairs choose to be in wheelchairs. They could simply crawl up stairs. People are born with the genes to be short, tall, fat, skinny, athletic, intelligent, impulsive, cautious. Yet, we insist that sexuality is the one trait that consistent. All of us are born into a world of gray, not black and white.
I am not attracted to men. It is not my choice to not be attracted to them. I am attracted to women. I could choose to not act on that attraction, but I can not choose the object of my attraction.

That's really the debate, isn't it? -- whether it's a choice or something you're born into.

[Serpico1103]

I follow what you're saying, and I submit this (which I was thinking about while Ron was having that conversation):

I have a friend Duane, who is gay. He has an identical twin brother, who is straight. Is Duane choosing to be gay, or is his brother choosing to be straight?

(it's true about Duane and his brother, btw)

I guess some sort of experiment that tested how they responded to the different sexes would reveal their true feelings. You say Duane is gay and straight, but in reality you only know they are acting gay and straight. Maybe they are both gay, but Duane is courageous enough to be open about it. Maybe they are both straight, but Duane for some reason has such severe issues with women that he turns to men. Maybe they both fall into that gray area that we all fall into.
We have begun to accept that most, if not all, women have at least a little bisexuality in them. When will we fill secure enough as men to come to that realization? Are societal pressures still too great? If it wasn't drilled into our heads from such a young age that homosexuality is so wrong, would we be more open to the idea of male bisexuality?

[HBox]

That's really the debate, isn't it? -- whether it's a choice or something you're born into.

Ron was arguing one thing and everyone else was arguing something else. Yeah, some people choose to live a homosexual lifestyle or not to. But what people were really arguing was not that but what people are sexually attracted to.

So, yeah, you can choose to live a heterosexual lifestyle even though you are attracted members of the same sex. No one was actually arguing against that. Ron's argument was more of a semantical argument. While everyone else was trying to argue that people are born with attractions to certain sexes, or both, or specific categories within a sex.

[Serpico1103]

That's really the debate, isn't it? -- whether it's a choice or something you're born into.

I agree that is a debate. But, Ron was arguing both sides. Saying "being gay is a choice" and then saying "you are born with a preference." Being gay has nothing, NOTHING, to do with the act. It has to do with the internal physical attraction.
Are you not heterosexual until you have sex? Do you stop being heterosexual after not having sex for a certain amount of time?
Ron said people in prison are not gay. So why are they not gay, but he would say that ESD's brother is gay? Because the people in prison are not attracted to men, they are merely using what they can. ESD's brother is attracted to men. He chooses to act on that attraction, but he does not choose to be attracted.

[TheMojoPin]

Isn't he basically saying that everyone ultimately chooses to have sex or engage in sexual activity?

[silas]

imo, it was the rare segment that just didn't work for interest, new info,and/or laffs etc......ironically; i was hoping that esd would just shove something and they could move on

[Legolas]

I agree that is a debate. But, Ron was arguing both sides.


Exactly. My question now would be, was he doing this on purpose to try and stir up the callers (he eluded to doing that earlier in the show) or was he just not aware of the argument he was making?

[Tallman388]

Isn't he basically saying that everyone ultimately chooses to have sex or engage in sexual activity?

I think so. I thought at the time that he was trying to draw Fez into the debate, maybe to shed some light on his sexuality/asexuality, but it didn't really work. We did find out plenty about Dave's brother though.

[Boomer]

I completely agree with Ron on the fact that one chooses to act on their impulse, but I often have pointed out to a few of my friends that I have that are gay that taking the stand that you were born that way is a cop out.

Follow this logic.

When you say you are born gay it makes it sound as if you had no choice so we should feel sorry for you and the burden you have. In fact you are almost alluding to the fact that you can't control yourself.

If you hold to the belief that you choose to be gay, you are taking a stand and being proud of your choice. You should be proud, not ashamed.

If you have gay pride, you shouldn't be acting as if it is a disablility. Be proud. You are what you choose to be, and you like it that way.

(my 2 cents)

[jonyrotn]

Is Joe only attracted to female sheep?
If not, it starts to get weird..

[HBox]

I completely agree with Ron on the fact that one chooses to act on their impulse, but I often have pointed out to a few of my friends that I have that are gay that taking the stand that you were born that way is a cop out.

Follow this logic.

When you say you are born gay it makes it sound as if you had no choice so we should feel sorry for you and the burden you have. In fact you are almost alluding to the fact that you can't control yourself.

If you hold to the belief that you choose to be gay, you are taking a stand and being proud of your choice. You should be proud, not ashamed.

If you have gay pride, you shouldn't be acting as if it is a disablility. Be proud. You are what you choose to be, and you like it that way.

(my 2 cents)

There's an underlying assumption here that they are doing something wrong. There's nothing at all wrong with being attracted to the same sex in and of itself, yet you say that gay people need to "control" it. Why should they?

[jauble]

I completely agree with Ron on the fact that one chooses to act on their impulse, but I often have pointed out to a few of my friends that I have that are gay that taking the stand that you were born that way is a cop out.

Follow this logic.

When you say you are born gay it makes it sound as if you had no choice so we should feel sorry for you and the burden you have. In fact you are almost alluding to the fact that you can't control yourself.

If you hold to the belief that you choose to be gay, you are taking a stand and being proud of your choice. You should be proud, not ashamed.

If you have gay pride, you shouldn't be acting as if it is a disablility. Be proud. You are what you choose to be, and you like it that way.

(my 2 cents)

Im not gathering what your point is here. Are you assuming that they want pity for facing what life is like as a gay in America? Some of my friends have said that they were born gay but I dont see that a them looking for sympathy. Were you born straight? I guess how you answer that might make me understand what you are saying better.

[Boomer]

There's an underlying assumption here that they are doing something wrong. There's nothing at all wrong with being attracted to the same sex in and of itself, yet you say that gay people need to "control" it. Why should they?

No No No..you got it wrong.

There is nothing at all wrong with being gay. I just feel that if you are gay and claim you had no choice in it because you were born that way, it comes off as an excuse.
There is no need for an excuse.

If you are gay and say it is your choice. You can then stand proudly.

It's not a shame thing, it's a pride thing. It's a way of carrying yourself. I am who and what I am because I want to be this way.

I am very much for all gay rights. It's just a point that is hard to make on a web post without typing a million words.

[drjoek]

I love how Dave can be convinced that the sky is green if Ronnie B says so :lol:

[HBox]

No No No..you got it wrong.

There is nothing at all wrong with being gay. I just feel that if you are gay and claim you had no choice in it because you were born that way, it comes off as an excuse.
There is no need for an excuse.

If you are gay and say it is your choice. You can then stand proudly.

It's not a shame thing, it's a pride thing. It's a way of carrying yourself. I am who and what I am because I want to be this way.

I am very much for all gay rights. It's just a point that is hard to make on a web post without typing a million words.

Why should they say it's a choice if it isn't though? Who cares how it comes off? Straight people don't need to say "I chose to be straight and I'm proud of it."

[HBox]

I love how Dave can be convinced that the sky is green if Ronnie B says so :lol:

And the rest of the staff except Lily. And a large segment of the audience.

[Boomer]

Im not gathering what your point is here. Are you assuming that they want pity for facing what life is like as a gay in America? Some of my friends have said that they were born gay but I dont see that a them looking for sympathy. Were you born straight? I guess how you answer that might make me understand what you are saying better.

See my above reply along with this.

It's not sympathy, it's a belief.

Here...
I am straight. I am because I choose to be. God didn't make me straight. My parents didn't make me straight. I choose to be. I am my own keeper. I am proud of the choices I made in my life that have made me, me. I am taking all credit and responsibility for myself. If I held a belief that I had no choice in the matter then how can I be proud of myself. I want to be proud of myself, so I believe that I am who I choose to be.

If I was gay I would still hold those very same beliefs.

This has NOTHING to do with gay or straight, it's just a way of going through life.

[jauble]

And the rest of the staff except Lily. And a large segment of the audience.

Ron told me to disagree with this statement.

[Boomer]

Why should they say it's a choice if it isn't though? Who cares how it comes off? Straight people don't need to say "I chose to be straight and I'm proud of it."

I just did. :)

[TheMojoPin]

I am straight. I am because I choose to be. God didn't make me straight. My parents didn't make me straight. I choose to be. I am my own keeper. I am proud of the choices I made in my life that have made me, me. I am taking all credit and responsibility for myself. If I held a belief that I had no choice in the matter then how can I be proud of myself. I want to be proud of myself, so I believe that I am who I choose to be.

If I was gay I would still hold those very same beliefs.

This has NOTHING to do with gay or straight, it's just a way of going through life.

Why can't it just be like being born with a certain color of hair? There's no need for it to be "emotional" or religious or social...it's just genetic.

[hedges]

I think it can be by birth and by choice. Simple.

[HBox]

Why can't it just be like being born with a certain color of hair? There's no need for it to be "emotional" or religious or social...it's just genetic.

I'm proud that I chose for my pubes to be black.

That's so going to be a mod quote..

[jauble]

See my above reply along with this.

It's not symapathy, it's a belief.

Here...
I am straight. I am because I choose to be. God didn't make me straight. My parents didn't make me straight. I choose to be. I am my own keeper. I am proud of the choices I made in my life that have made me, me. I am taking all credit and responsibility for myself. If I held a belief that I had no choice in the matter then how can I be proud of myself. I want to be proud of myself, so I believe that I am who I choose to be.

If I was gay I would still hold those very same beliefs.

This has NOTHING to do with gay or straight, it's just a way of going through life.

Ok point taken, but for people that have had to explain them being gay (at least in my own group of friendships) there have been people that just dont get it or are curious as to see when they "went gay" and as far as my friends have remembered they have always been gay so they say they were born that way. I've never made a stab at the nature v. nurture argument, but Im not qualified to make a statement so I was curious when my housemate came out (we have known since we first met him) about the idea of deciding to be gay and he said there wasnt a decision he just always was.

[Boomer]

Why can't it just be like being born with a certain color of hair? There's no need for it to be "emotional" or religious or social...it's just genetic.

Because it's an action. Being born with dark curly hair is genetic, not an action. Being gay is not genetic. There isn't a "gay jean". No one has found one.

What color do you like? I like blue. Is that because I have a blue gene? Was a born to like blue or do I like it because I want to.

Doesn't life feel better if you choose to live it your way?

Is it better to have the belief that everything is just laid out and predestined and you're just following the trail.

[HBox]

There isn't a "gay jean". No one has found one.

I FOUND IT!

http://images.mallfinder.com/Images/Store/LUopsbinder0203.gif

[HBox]

Because it's an action. Being born with dark curly hair is genetic, not an action. Being gay is not genetic. There isn't a "gay jean". No one has found one.

What color do you like? I like blue. Is that because I have a blue gene? Was a born to like blue or do I like it because I want to.

Doesn't life feel better if you choose to live it your way?

Is it better to have the belief that everything is just laid out and predestined and you're just following the trail.

So if you chose to be attracted to men tomorrow you could?

[jasmillo]

I follow what you're saying, and I submit this (which I was thinking about while Ron was having that conversation):

I have a friend Duane, who is gay. He has an identical twin brother, who is straight. Is Duane choosing to be gay, or is his brother choosing to be straight?

(it's true about Duane and his brother, btw)

I think Duane is gay and his brother is not. What humans become is not dictated by nature or nurture exclusively. Humans are complicated beings and unless I missed something, I do not think they have nailed down the exact moment of human development in which ones sexual preference is determined. I also do not think they have found the miracle "gene" that determines if someone will be gay or straight. I think most folks are probably born with a combination of genetic traits that will determine if they will be straight or gay but there are probably a ton of people out there in which environment can play a very large part in what their sexual preference will end up being because their combination of traits is not as clear cut.

My guess is that the identical twins you are talking about were born with a combination of genetic attributes which when "nurtured" in a specific environment make that person become a homosexual, heterosexual, or bisexual later in life. The gay brother was probably exposed to a slightly different environment (life experiences, friends, Menudo, etc.) than the straight one.

I don't think the gay community likes this argument because it feeds the religous zealots argument that being gay is a "choice". I'm no expert but I do not think there are many, if any, human traits whether they be physical or behavioral in which environment at some point does not play at least part in the final outcome.

As far as Ron's use of the word choice I think his argument it a good one. I did not hear the show (I'll listen to the replay) but it seems like he was saying that there is a genetic predisposition to be gay but that when all is said and done you make a choice to be gay or straight. Someone can be a heterosexual, only have sexual feelings towards the opposite sex and yet choose to have gay sex. There are probably al ot of pornstars that fall into this category.

I can't believe I just wrote all this. I am depressed because it's July 29th and it's 60 fucking degrees in Seattle. I need to move back to the northeast.

[Legolas]

Because it's an action. Being born with dark curly hair is genetic, not an action. Being gay is not genetic. There isn't a "gay jean". No one has found one.

What color do you like? I like blue. Is that because I have a blue gene? Was a born to like blue or do I like it because I want to.

Doesn't life feel better if you choose to live it your way?

Is it better to have the belief that everything is just laid out and predestined and you're just following the trail.

Being gay isnt an action. Choosing to fuck guys is an action and a choice. But you can be gay w/o having sex with a guy.

And i would disagree that you chose to be straight. You werent equally attracted to both jack and jane (unless ur bi) and chose jane.

[Boomer]

Ok point taken, but for people that have had to explain them being gay (at least in my own group of friendships) there have been people that just dont get it or are curious as to see when they "went gay" and as far as my friends have remembered they have always been gay so they say they were born that way. I've never made a stab at the nature v. nurture argument, but Im not qualified to make a statement so I was curious when my housemate came out (we have known since we first met him) about the idea of deciding to be gay and he said there wasnt a decision he just always was.

That's my point. Why do you have to explain why you are gay? I don't have to explain why I'm straight.
When someone asks you why and you answer with "Because I want to be" that is a definate answer that can't be argued and doesn't need further explaination.

[happytypinggirl]

even if your preference is not a conscious choice, why are people so certain you are BORN that way?

how do you know you dont develop those preferences early on based on experience, exposures early in life?

what evidence is there that you are actually born with a gene that makes you have that preference?

does that mean fetishists are born with a preference for fat chicks or young boys or feminine looking men or amputees? are you born with your preference for blonds if you liked blonds for as long as you can remember?

i've always thought that your sexuality is a combination of many complex factors, including some things you may be born with, physical traits, exposure to media, etc. I dont think any of us were BORN straight or born gay. Just because as a little girl you like playing with dolls or trucks, does that mean you were BORN GENETICALLY to play with those toys?

I think the saddest thing i ever heard was the woman who said...do you think i would actually choose to be this way? Come on...be proud of what you like, and who you are.

And anyway, people choose to be counter-culture, and counter the norm all the time. Even when those choices may lead to difficulties for them in life.

[Boomer]

I FOUND IT!

http://images.mallfinder.com/Images/Store/LUopsbinder0203.gif

you suck!

I fought all temptation to keep the tone serious and not crack a joke when I typed blue gene. (Yes...I chose not too)
:happy:

[Legolas]

I



As far as Ron's use of the word choice I think his argument it a good one. I did not hear the show (I'll listen to the replay) but it seems like he was saying that there is a genetic predisposition to be gay but that when all is said and done you make a choice to be gay or straight. .


Ron actually went back and forth w/o admitting to it and that's the problem that we are having.

[happytypinggirl]

I think Duane is gay and his brother is not. What humans become is not dictated by nature or nurture exclusively. Humans are complicated beings and unless I missed something, I do not think they have nailed down the exact moment of human development in which ones sexual preference is determined. I also do not think they have found the miracle "gene" that determines if someone will be gay or straight. I think most folks are probably born with a combination of genetic traits that will determine if they will be straight or gay but there are probably a ton of people out there in which environment can play a very large part in what their sexual preference will end up being because their combination of traits is not as clear cut.

My guess is that the identical twins you are talking about were born with a combination of genetic attributes which when "nurtured" in a specific environment make that person become a homosexual, heterosexual, or bisexual later in life. The gay brother was probably exposed to a slightly different environment (life experiences, friends, Menudo, etc.) than the straight one.

I don't think the gay community likes this argument because it feeds the religous zealots argument that being gay is a "choice". I'm no expert but I do not think there are many, if any, human traits whether they be physical or behavioral in which environment at some point does not play at least part in the final outcome.

As far as Ron's use of the word choice I think his argument it a good one. I did not hear the show (I'll listen to the replay) but it seems like he was saying that there is a genetic predisposition to be gay but that when all is said and done you make a choice to be gay or straight. Someone can be a heterosexual, only have sexual feelings towards the opposite sex and yet choose to have gay sex. There are probably al ot of pornstars that fall into this category.

I can't believe I just wrote all this. I am depressed because it's July 29th and it's 60 fucking degrees in Seattle. I need to move back to the northeast.


bravo!!!!

[happytypinggirl]

Ron actually went back and forth w/o admitting to it and that's the problem that we are having.

i believe ron was proposing some thoughts and ideas to think about. thats all.

[Boomer]

Thank Bejeebe for Happy Typing Girl!
I was feeling outnumbered.
:clap:

[happytypinggirl]

I love how Dave can be convinced that the sky is green if Ronnie B says so :lol:

thats just silly. dave disagrees with and argues with ron more than anyone else.

[HBox]

even if your preference is not a conscious choice, why are people so certain you are BORN that way?

how do you know you dont develop those preferences early on based on experience, exposures early in life?

what evidence is there that you are actually born with a gene that makes you have that preference?

does that mean fetishists are born with a preference for fat chicks or young boys or feminine looking men or amputees? are you born with your preference for blonds if you liked blonds for as long as you can remember?

i've always thought that your sexuality is a combination of many complex factors, including some things you may be born with, physical traits, exposure to media, etc. I dont think any of us were BORN straight or born gay. Just because as a little girl you like playing with dolls or trucks, does that mean you were BORN GENETICALLY to play with those toys?

I think the saddest thing i ever heard was the woman who said...do you think i would actually choose to be this way? Come on...be proud of what you like, and who you are.

And anyway, people choose to be counter-culture, and counter the norm all the time. Even when those choices may lead to difficulties for them in life.

None of that equals a choice. Being shaped by outside influences as a child doesn't happen by choice.

And I didn't sense any shame from that woman who said she didn't choose this. It sounded to me more like frustration at all the crap she's had to deal with in her life.

[happytypinggirl]

Why can't it just be like being born with a certain color of hair? There's no need for it to be "emotional" or religious or social...it's just genetic.

it might be. but why is everyone so sure its genetic? there just isnt enough evidence other than....i always felt that way as long as i can remember.

I think it can be by birth and by choice. Simple.

there are many routes to the same destination. :) agreed.

[happytypinggirl]

None of that equals a choice. Being shaped by outside influences as a child doesn't happen by choice.

And I didn't sense any shame from that woman who said she didn't choose this. It sounded to me more like frustration at all the crap she's had to deal with in her life.

saying "why would i choose this?" implies something very sad to me.

and there are two components to the argument imo...

a) is it genetics or something else

and then rons other point which was....

b) while your preferences may be something you dont control, your actions are your choice.


two seperate points imo.

[Legolas]

even if your preference is not a conscious choice, why are people so certain you are BORN that way?

how do you know you dont develop those preferences early on based on experience, exposures early in life?

what evidence is there that you are actually born with a gene that makes you have that preference?

does that mean fetishists are born with a preference for fat chicks or young boys or feminine looking men or amputees? are you born with your preference for blonds if you liked blonds for as long as you can remember?

i've always thought that your sexuality is a combination of many complex factors, including some things you may be born with, physical traits, exposure to media, etc. I dont think any of us were BORN straight or born gay. Just because as a little girl you like playing with dolls or trucks, does that mean you were BORN GENETICALLY to play with those toys?

I think the saddest thing i ever heard was the woman who said...do you think i would actually choose to be this way? Come on...be proud of what you like, and who you are.

And anyway, people choose to be counter-culture, and counter the norm all the time. Even when those choices may lead to difficulties for them in life.


Sounds like you're talking about environmental factors. Fine, but we come back to our original point in that it CANT BE A CHOICE if it's based on environmental factors. You're not choosing your environment at the young age when your sexuality starts to show. The only choice is to fight what your sexuality already is or accept it. The choice comes in long after the sexuality.

[HBox]

saying "why would i choose this?" implies something very sad to me.

and there are two components to the argument imo...

a) is it genetics or something else

and then rons other point which was....

b) while your preferences may be something you dont control, your actions are your choice.


two seperate points imo.

Yeah, that's what i was saying in the beginning of this post. Ron was arguing one thing and everyone else on the show was arguing something else. I agree that in the end you choose to "live" gay or straight or bi or whatever. But what you are attracted to you can't choose. Whether that is caused by genetics or something else or many things.

And I agree that woman's comments were very sad but I think that's because she lives in a world that looks down on her.

[drjoek]

thats just silly. dave disagrees with and argues with ron more than anyone else.

Dave takes most of his points of view to contribute to the show I don't think he stands by most of what he says
Entertains us greatly with this but I question his conviction most of the time

[Boomer]

I don't think the gay community likes this argument because it feeds the religous zealots argument that being gay is a "choice". I'm no expert but I do not think there are many, if any, human traits whether they be physical or behavioral in which environment at some point does not play at least part in the final outcome.

Nothing will ever satisfiy the religous zealots. They will just go throught life passing judgement on others.

According to them, I'm going to hell because my Catholic ass married a Jewish woman.

[Legolas]

saying "why would i choose this?" implies something very sad to me.

Yes, it's sad when people dont accept you, ridicule you, or perhaps even physically hurt you
for something that you can't control.[/QUOTE]




and then rons other point which was....

b) while your preferences may be something you dont control, your actions are your choice.


yes but being gay isnt an action. having gay sex is.

[happytypinggirl]

Sounds like you're talking about environmental factors. Fine, but we come back to our original point in that it CANT BE A CHOICE if it's based on environmental factors. You're not choosing your environment at the young age when your sexuality starts to show. The only choice is to fight what your sexuality already is or accept it. The choice comes in long after the sexuality.

correct. the choice issue only comes up because you choose how you act based on your preferences.

its long been established that most pedofiles have an almost uncontrollable urge toward young kids. but they get to choose how to respond.

now, nobody is saying that people should resist their sexual impulses (when they are legal), only that your actions are technically a choice. and they are.

[HBox]

Nothing will ever satisfiy the religous zealots. They will just go throught life passing judgement on others.

According to them, I'm going to hell because my Catholic ass married a Jewish woman.

There's a special place in hell where you and Dave will burn for eternity.

[happytypinggirl]

Yes, it's sad when people dont accept you, ridicule you, or perhaps even physically hurt you
for something that you can't control.


agreed. its wrong. but thats changing.


but being gay isnt an action. having gay sex is.

exactly.

[Legolas]

Another thing i just wanted to throw out there is that a couple of days ago Fez was talking about franklyn and mentioning the attractive qualities he has and comparing them with a female and Ron told fez that the simple fact that he was choosing which sex he wants means that he's gay because no straight man makes that choice. Which tells me what he really thinks about choice

[jlehane3]

I was just wondering today why gay behaviour happens more frequently with stereotypical straight males when you liquor them up and drop their defenses.Other cultures around the world are different in their acceptance of gay behavior. Women seem more at ease and accepting of bi-sexuality while taboo for males,some societal pressure for family values. I see it as Darwinism . <a href="http://www.msplinks.com/MDFodHRwOi8vd3d3Lm15c3BhY2UuY29tL2FyZGVub2ZlZGVu"><img src="http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t261/maryardencollins/ArdenBanner.jpg" alt="arden of eden" /></a>

[happytypinggirl]

Another thing i just wanted to throw out there is that a couple of days ago Fez was talking about franklyn and mentioning the attractive qualities he has and comparing them with a female and Ron told fez that the simple fact that he was choosing which sex he wants means that he's gay because no straight man makes that choice.

well here's an interesting thing about that.....a lot of society now says that bisexual women are not only okay, but sexy. and you see an awful lot more women 'experimenting' whereas society says you're not a real straight man if you can even think about dick or kissing a man.

to me this supports the idea that you're not born with your sexuality and that its more dependant on environmental factors.

[Legolas]

correct. the choice issue only comes up because you choose how you act based on your preferences.

its long been established that most pedofiles have an almost uncontrollable urge toward young kids. but they get to choose how to respond.

now, nobody is saying that people should resist their sexual impulses (when they are legal), only that your actions are technically a choice. and they are.

Cool, but in the pedo's case he's still a pedo even if he doesnt choose to act on those urges, right?

[happytypinggirl]

Cool, but in the pedo's case he's still a pedo even if he doesnt choose to act on those urges, right?

yea. nobody said you consciously choose your preferences. ron specifically said that we dont. we dont choose if we like blonds or brunettes or tall guys either. but that doesn't necessarily mean we're genetically wired to those preferences.

see my above post about the two different issues that came up.

[Legolas]

well here's an interesting thing about that.....a lot of society now says that bisexual women are not only okay, but sexy. and you see an awful lot more women 'experimenting' whereas society says you're not a real straight man if you can even think about dick or kissing a man.

to me this supports the idea that you're not born with your sexuality and that its more dependant on environmental factors.


Well i would say that men are always going to be accepting of woman/woman because its their fantasy.

As for women doing the experimenting I don't know if that's necessarily true. Maybe there's just more of that seeping into society becuase its something men don't mind seeing so society accepts it.

I think men really have the control here when it comes to sexuality on how it's preceived in society.

[Legolas]

yea. nobody said you consciously choose your preferences. ron specifically said that we dont. we dont choose if we like blonds or brunettes or tall guys either. but that doesn't necessarily mean we're genetically wired to those preferences.

see my above post about the two different issues that came up.

I thought he specifically said you do make those choices re:the blond hair, asian chicks and that its not genetic.

[big_poppa]

That's really the debate, isn't it? -- whether it's a choice or something you're born into.

Lets leave genetics out of the argument for a moment. We are talking choice. You do not have a choice UNLESS you are BORN gay. So you may ask, what kind of moronic statement is that? Please follow. I know gay men that have chosen not to follow a gay lifestyle. They get married, have children and do all the other hetero things that we would expect a straight man to do; but, THEY ARE STILL GAY. They can only choose to not live the reality they were dealt at birth. In other words, they may choose to live a lie.

Consider the flip side of the coin. I am a hetero. I CAN NOT choose to be gay. There is absolutely no chance of this ever happening. The thought of sucking on a dick, or being fucked in the ass is revolting to me. It does not bother me that gay friends enjoy these acts. And them enjoying these acts in no way diminishes my opinion of them or, for that matter, makes me like them any less as a person. But the fact remains, I can not choose to be gay as I do not want to see, no less participate in, the sexual acts of a homosexual lifestyle.

You may be born hetero, bi or gay. Obviously, a bisexual has it fairly easy as their only choice needs to be whether or not to admit their bisexuality. They can have their cake and eat it too, the best of both worlds so to speak. Gays have it harder because they may pretend to be straight merely to please family, or to follow what society considers the norm or even for religious reasons. But at what risk to their happiness and mental well being? (I say decide on the side of happiness).

When it comes to most heteros, there is no choice involved. It doesn't matter if you are attracted to fatties, or redheads or even amputees. They still HAVE to be the opposite sex and that is where Ron's argument breaks down. I may eat a fatty snatch or lick a female amputees stub even though neither is really appealing to me. But I am NOT sucking on a dick because the thought of it is revolting. There is no choice involved. Think of it another way. If I and other straights could choose to be, at the very least, bisexual, it would double our chances of getting laid. Yet we stick with the same sex knowing the chance we'll be whacking it alone is much greater. Choose to be gay? I don't see it.

[Boomer]

Well i would say that men are always going to be accepting of woman/woman because its their fantasy.

As for women doing the experimenting I don't know if that's necessarily true. Maybe there's just more of that seeping into society becuase its something men don't mind seeing so society accepts it.

I think men really have the control here when it comes to sexuality on how it's preceived in society.

If men had the control of society, why would we let women have the total freedom of sexuality? Isn't it really woman who have the control?

[Serpico1103]

Lumping the choice of acting on gay urges, with the internal attraction to the same sex is a mistake. They are two distinct things that should not be muddled together.
Of course, no one would argue that you don't have a choice to act on your homosexual disposition. The debate is whether you have a choice to be gay. There are three possibilities; nature, nurture, or nature and nurture. In any of this, is the person choosing? NO! They were born that way, there environment molded them that way, or a combination. But, it was not a choice.
I think like everything we are it is a combination. If you read a lot and are challenged as a child you will be smarter and more open to learning. However, you will not make yourself into Einstein. If your parents give a golf ball at age 3, you can become a good golfer. But, without innate ability you will not be Tiger Woods.
It is not a cop-out to say it is not a choice. If it were illegal to be gay, of course your defense could not I had no choice. Pedophiles are not prosecuted for being attracted to kids, they are prosecuted for choosing to act. I am not comparing gays to pedophiles. Sodomy was, and may be still, illegal in some states, whether gay or straight. You could choose to act and commit the crime of sodomy. But, it would not be a choice to enjoy or like it.

[big_poppa]

If men had the control of society, why would we let women have the total freedom of sexuality? Isn't it really woman who have the control?

Couldn't be more true. If a girl wants to leave a bar/party/(fill in your choice) with a guy to get laid, it will happen. If not, it won't. No matter the sap dropped half his paycheck buying her drinks. And they know they have the control.

[Boomer]

There's a special place in hell where you and Dave will burn for eternity.

Just Fucking Great. So I'll spend eternity smelling Dave's burning shit sandwiches! :furious:

[sailor]

yea. nobody said you consciously choose your preferences. ron specifically said that we dont. we dont choose if we like blonds or brunettes or tall guys either. but that doesn't necessarily mean we're genetically wired to those preferences.

see my above post about the two different issues that came up.

I thought he specifically said you do make those choices re:the blond hair, asian chicks and that its not genetic.

i can see htg's point, but ron really did say it was all choice.

i don't think it's choice, but i do think there's environmental factors mixed with the genetics. ron also seemed mixed up when people said you can't help who you're attracted to and he was equating that to jumping on random women in the streets because you're an animal with no impulse control.

[happytypinggirl]

I thought he specifically said you do make those choices re:the blond hair, asian chicks and that its not genetic.

the preference is something you have and dont know why you have it. the choice is in pursuing it.

[happytypinggirl]

Lets leave genetics out of the argument for a moment. We are talking choice. You do not have a choice UNLESS you are BORN gay. So you may ask, what kind of moronic statement is that? Please follow. I know gay men that have chosen not to follow a gay lifestyle. They get married, have children and do all the other hetero things that we would expect a straight man to do; but, THEY ARE STILL GAY. They can only choose to not live the reality they were dealt at birth. In other words, they may choose to live a lie.

Consider the flip side of the coin. I am a hetero. I CAN NOT choose to be gay. There is absolutely no chance of this ever happening. The thought of sucking on a dick, or being fucked in the ass is revolting to me. It does not bother me that gay friends enjoy these acts. And them enjoying these acts in no way diminishes my opinion of them or, for that matter, makes me like them any less as a person. But the fact remains, I can not choose to be gay as I do not want to see, no less participate in, the sexual acts of a homosexual lifestyle.

You may be born hetero, bi or gay. Obviously, a bisexual has it fairly easy as their only choice needs to be whether or not to admit their bisexuality. They can have their cake and eat it too, the best of both worlds so to speak. Gays have it harder because they may pretend to be straight merely to please family, or to follow what society considers the norm or even for religious reasons. But at what risk to their happiness and mental well being? (I say decide on the side of happiness).

When it comes to most heteros, there is no choice involved. It doesn't matter if you are attracted to fatties, or redheads or even amputees. They still HAVE to be the opposite sex and that is where Ron's argument breaks down. I may eat a fatty snatch or lick a female amputees stub even though neither is really appealing to me. But I am NOT sucking on a dick because the thought of it is revolting. There is no choice involved. Think of it another way. If I and other straights could choose to be, at the very least, bisexual, it would double our chances of getting laid. Yet we stick with the same sex knowing the chance we'll be whacking it alone is much greater. Choose to be gay? I don't see it.

the question is....is your revusion to sex with men something you were born with? or something that environment has cultivated.

[Legolas]

If men had the control of society, why would we let women have the total freedom of sexuality? Isn't it really woman who have the control?


What's better to a straight man than a woman who is free sexually? That's kinda the goal.

If men were as free sexually as women we wouldnt be having this conversation about homosexuality.

Men totally control the definitions of what's cool or disgusting sexually in society

[Boomer]

the preference is something you have and dont know why you have it. the choice is in pursuing it.

But why is it that sexuality is something you're born with while liking chocolate ice cream is a choice?

[happytypinggirl]

i can see htg's point, but ron really did say it was all choice.

i don't think it's choice, but i do think there's environmental factors mixed with the genetics. ron also seemed mixed up when people said you can't help who you're attracted to and he was equating that to jumping on random women in the streets because you're an animal with no impulse control.

i really dont think he said that. but hey, i've been wrong before.

[happytypinggirl]

But why is it that sexuality is something you're born with while liking chocolate ice cream is a choice?

liking chocolate ice cream is not a choice. eating it is.

[Legolas]

i can see htg's point, but ron really did say it was all choice.

i don't think it's choice, but i do think there's environmental factors mixed with the genetics. ron also seemed mixed up when people said you can't help who you're attracted to and he was equating that to jumping on random women in the streets because you're an animal with no impulse control.


This is what I heard as well.

[Boomer]

What's better to a straight man than a woman who is free sexually? That's kinda the goal?

If men were as free sexually as women we wouldnt be having this conversation about homosexuality.

Men totally control the definitions of what's cool or disgusting sexually in society

Oh Hell No.

First, having woman also like woman gives us more competition. Guys might like the fantasy of two woman, but when it comes to reality, we want you to want us.

B, If men were as free sexually we would too be having this conversation, but it would include BJ tips.

And finally, Men have no control. We don't. We are slaves to woman. We work our asses off trying to earn money. Go to the gym to look better. Dress in nice clothes instead of comfortable sweats and sneaks. Even try to sit through a Hugh Grant movie without throwing up...all for women. (there...I admitted it, we're weak) Woman drive what is "in" and "out" in society. We men just follow behind and try not to get rug burns on our knuckles while dragging them along.

[Legolas]

Oh Hell No.

First, having woman also like woman gives us more competition. Guys might like the fantasy of two woman, but when it comes to reality, we want you to want us.

B, If men were as free sexually we would too be having this conversation, but it would include BJ tips.

And finally, Men have no control. We don't. We are slaves to woman. We work our asses off trying to earn money. Go to the gym to look better. Dress in nice clothes instead of comfortable sweats and sneaks. Even try to sit through a Hugh Grant movie without throwing up...all for women. (there...I admitted it, we're weak) Woman drive what is "in" and "out" in society. We men just follow behind and try not to get rug burns on our knuckles while dragging them along.


I doenst matter if it gives us more competition, we still like it and therefore it's seen as a cool thing to do.

i'm not saying men control women and their actions directly, but i do think we control the the idea of what's cool or not cool, sexually, in a society.

[Serpico1103]

But why is it that sexuality is something you're born with while liking chocolate ice cream is a choice?

So you are just as intelligent as Einstein, just as athletic as Michael Jordan, just as artistic as Michaelangelo, just as musical as Beethoven?
Why do we accept that we are all born different, hair, eyes, predetermined height, many mental characteristics are due to differences in our brain activity, yet sexuality is so sacred that it could not be another gray area?
Who said liking chocolate ice cream is a choice? Does chocolate ice cream taste the same to you as it does to me? Maybe I have more sour receptors than you, maybe I am more sensitive to the cold ice cream than you?
We are all different. That is the beauty of the world. Everything is different. Every moment, every place, every thing, all different.

[happytypinggirl]

So you are just as intelligent as Einstein, just as athletic as Michael Jordan, just as artistic as Michaelangelo, just as musical as Beethoven?
Why do we accept that we are all born different, hair, eyes, predetermined height, many mental characteristics are due to differences in our brain activity, yet sexuality is so sacred that it could not be another gray area?
Who said liking chocolate ice cream is a choice? Does chocolate ice cream taste the same to you as it does to me? Maybe I have more sour receptors than you, maybe I am more sensitive to the cold ice cream than you?
We are all different. That is the beauty of the world. Everything is different. Every moment, every place, every thing, all different.

yay! and thats what makes life interesting.

[Recyclerz]

Interesting thread and debate. I'd just like to throw out a couple of ideas for everybody's consideration:

The idea or concept of "gay" is a Western societal construct and a relatively recent one at that. Now, there have always been men and women who have been sexually attracted to members of their own gender throughout human history. How readily their inclinations/actions were accepted by each of the mainstream societies they lived in depended on the folkways and mores for accepting/tolerating difference in this societies. Ex. In ancient Greece, Rome, Troy, etc. and in most of the Arab and southwest Asian societies of today, sex between older men and submissive, younger men is accepted or at least tolerated. Yet if you called any of these older men "gay" in Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan they would go ballistic and probably cut your head off if they got the chance. The concept that we have made of "gay" is a mirror image of heterosexual coupling (albeit with a better sense of style) and have convinced ourselves that this concept is natural when in fact it is pretty new. For a more artistic rendering of the point I'm trying to make, see the Roy Cohn monologue in Angels in America where he explains he's not gay, he's a straight man that likes to fuck other men.

Also I'm not entirely comfortable with the conclusions that Ron and HTG seem to be drawing that if nurture or environmental factors play a larger role in determining behavior than genetics or biology then sexuality is more of a choice than a pre-determined pattern. I'll have to go back over their arguments to do them justice but as a quick out I think we don't yet know enough about how the brain really works to determine these kinds of questions. It seemed to me that an underlying premise of Ron's argument is that people should generally take more responsibility for their decisions and actions and stop viewing themselves as victims or "robutts". Certainly, he's been pushing that idea onto Fez for awhile now and while I tend to agree with his premise, both from a personal and societal view, I am less positive than he seems to be that it is right. It is possible, although not certain, that from an ontological point of view that free will is really an illusion than our brains trick us with. If that's true, and I'm not saying it is, then most of the things that we "know" as right or wrong probably have to be revisited.

OK, enough bloviating for one night. :bye:

[Bay Ridge Tim]

I think what we need is a better word that "choice". Choice implies that a change is possible. In other words, everyone who is gay can simply choose to be straight at any time.

Now, homosexuality isn't 100% purely genetic, otherwise all identical twins would have the same sexual orientation. However, just because there may be external factors doesn't mean it is necessarily a choice.

I also disagree with the idea that it not being a choice is somehow lesser. We don't choose to be born in America or even to be men or women, but that doesn't diminish that experience or make it any less valid.

Crap, it's 2:30 and I'm rambling.

[PapaBear]

I haven't read much of this thread, so forgive me if someone else has already said this.

After listening to what Ron said about this on Monday, this is what I THINK he was saying. If it's genetically "hard wired" into an individual to be attracted to people of the same sex, and even repulsed by the idea of being with people of the opposite sex, they still have the ability to CHOOSE who they are going to be with. A gay person can still choose to not live a gay life. It's not a judgment (one way or the other) of what they SHOULD do. It's just a statement of the fact that people are capable of making choices, even if those choices aren't "natural" for them.

The things that an individual have to take into account, when making choices about this (or anything) are based on what they are willing to deal with, in the society in which they live. I think what he's getting at is... NO actions can really be totally determined by genetics. As long as you are capable of making a decision, you are capable of ignoring your natural tenancies to act on what "feels right".

Edit: I'm also pretty sure Ron used this topic as a metaphor for certain other topics.

[xxgoatmanxx]

If its genetic then I equate that with being biological. Choice and outside variables (traumatic events) as being psychological. From the biological stand point if its genetic, why is it an exclusive gene to humans? Psychological stand point has either it's just a choice or mental block brought upon by some event in the individuals history.

I don't see is being a choice unless you have psychological issues already, because of the ridicule and all you put up with. I think sexuality is a social expression. Like fear or laughter, do you control what scares you? makes you laugh? But most of the time the things that do scare you are programmed memories. Things you have learned over time to be worried about, so when u see them you are frightened. Why can't sexuality be a programmed response based on the social adaptation of the individual to their surroundings?

my two :D

[ahhdurr]

I am not attracted to men.

I am not attracted to men.

I am not attracted to men.

I am not attracted to men.

I am not attracted to men.

I am not attracted to men.

I am not attracted to men.
:lol::lol::lol:
<br>
Hi - I'm 5.

[BinaryBimbo]

Bottom Line:

Fez is Gay, and has probably always been Gay; but his environment as a child prevented his internal growth in a healthy manner. Today Fez is at the unenviable crossroads of never having acted on his impulses, or desires, and now he suffers from performance anxiety. Now that Fez is ready to recognize his desires for what they are he suffers from the totality of his past, and the heart problem basically rules out the mad drinking/drugging he needs now to perform. In short he is fucked, and Ronnie should stop trying to help him because he is making it worse for him.

Many people are asexual because of the same sorts of anxieties, and live productive lives ignoring that part of themselves publicly. Fez is having a hard time ignoring this because Ron feels a need to make him whole, or whatever it is he thinks he can accomplish with this ongoing line of talk; all it is doing is driving Fez deeper into the abyss imho.

The easiest way to fix Fez is to ignore these things that seem to bother everyone else more than they do him, and therefore give him a break from the national dialog on what's wrong with him. If he wants to talk he has his shrink.

[RAAMONE]

Bottom Line:

Fez is Gay, and has probably always been Gay; but his environment as a child prevented his internal growth in a healthy manner. Today Fez is at the unenviable crossroads of never having acted on his impulses, or desires, and now he suffers from performance anxiety. Now that Fez is ready to recognize his desires for what they are he suffers from the totality of his past, and the heart problem basically rules out the mad drinking/drugging he needs now to perform. In short he is fucked, and Ronnie should stop trying to help him because he is making it worse for him.

Many people are asexual because of the same sorts of anxieties, and live productive lives ignoring that part of themselves publicly. Fez is having a hard time ignoring this because Ron feels a need to make him whole, or whatever it is he thinks he can accomplish with this ongoing line of talk; all it is doing is driving Fez deeper into the abyss imho.

The easiest way to fix Fez is to ignore these things that seem to bother everyone else more than they do him, and therefore give him a break from the national dialog on what's wrong with him. If he wants to talk he has his shrink.


i completly agree...it seems like he is overall fine just being by himself...i mean he does say he gets upset every now and then but it doesnt seem to come from any type of sex issue, and who doesnt get upset once in a while...it seems he only gets really bothered when ron brings up how hes not sexually normal every other day. hes trying to force something on fez that he doesnt want

or maybe its just all a bit...whatever

[dozerking]

I've knew a few gays growing up, it's definitely something people have in them either biologically, physiologically, genes.etc...It's a choice to go fuck someone of the same sex, but the lust is ingrained in the DNA to make that choice. Two entirely different things.

I remember a guy growing up at 10 years old that was basically a girl, the way he talked, walked, everything about him was feminine. I remember asking him what his deal was, and he replied, nothing was wrong and that the way he acted was what he felt was normal and he was just doing what he felt was natural. Years later, society backlashed on him as he was definitely gay as he decided to act on his sexuality. Got the shit kicked out of him almost everyday in HighSchool for it, but to him it was the natural way he felt, it's just who he was.

Like Black Earl was born with Black genes, this guy was born with the gay gene or whatever physical determining factor, and it's not an excuse, it's just a fact of life. Just like anything else.

[happytypinggirl]

Interesting thread and debate. I'd just like to throw out a couple of ideas for everybody's consideration:

The idea or concept of "gay" is a Western societal construct and a relatively recent one at that. Now, there have always been men and women who have been sexually attracted to members of their own gender throughout human history. How readily their inclinations/actions were accepted by each of the mainstream societies they lived in depended on the folkways and mores for accepting/tolerating difference in this societies. Ex. In ancient Greece, Rome, Troy, etc. and in most of the Arab and southwest Asian societies of today, sex between older men and submissive, younger men is accepted or at least tolerated. Yet if you called any of these older men "gay" in Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan they would go ballistic and probably cut your head off if they got the chance. The concept that we have made of "gay" is a mirror image of heterosexual coupling (albeit with a better sense of style) and have convinced ourselves that this concept is natural when in fact it is pretty new. For a more artistic rendering of the point I'm trying to make, see the Roy Cohn monologue in Angels in America where he explains he's not gay, he's a straight man that likes to fuck other men.

Also I'm not entirely comfortable with the conclusions that Ron and HTG seem to be drawing that if nurture or environmental factors play a larger role in determining behavior than genetics or biology then sexuality is more of a choice than a pre-determined pattern. I'll have to go back over their arguments to do them justice but as a quick out I think we don't yet know enough about how the brain really works to determine these kinds of questions. It seemed to me that an underlying premise of Ron's argument is that people should generally take more responsibility for their decisions and actions and stop viewing themselves as victims or "robutts". Certainly, he's been pushing that idea onto Fez for awhile now and while I tend to agree with his premise, both from a personal and societal view, I am less positive than he seems to be that it is right. It is possible, although not certain, that from an ontological point of view that free will is really an illusion than our brains trick us with. If that's true, and I'm not saying it is, then most of the things that we "know" as right or wrong probably have to be revisited.

OK, enough bloviating for one night. :bye:

i wont (and couldn't possibly) speak for ron, but as for myself...i didnt draw the conclusion you think, and i really really really have been trying to make this clear but i guess im not doing a good job of expressing myself. :(

i dont think you choose your preferences. but i dont necessarily thing that you are born gay. i dont necessarily think that being straight or gay is something that is biological and predetermined before birth. and i find it baffling that so many people are so invested in that idea, without there really being any evidence. i dont know why people want to believe it so much. im also not saying that im certain it isnt biological either.

but my beliefs, based on a lot of thought, are, that your sexual preferences, like every other preference you have in life, is based on any number of millions of complicated factors including, your experiences, some of your physical features, your influences, media, subconscious, the environment you grow up in, your friends, teachers, hell maybe even the wallpaper in your bedroom, and with some people those preferences will stay the same throughout their lifetime and with some people they will change. but i do not believe that every person who is straight was born to be straight and i do not believe that every person who has ever been attracted to a member of the same sex, was born

imo, you dont actively control your sexual preferences. period.

















now...completely seperate....all of life, every action you take, involves some choice. but that is TOTALLY seperate, from whether your desires are a conscious choice, so im going to leave that go for purposes of not muddling up what i said above.

[happytypinggirl]

I haven't read much of this thread, so forgive me if someone else has already said this.

After listening to what Ron said about this on Monday, this is what I THINK he was saying. If it's genetically "hard wired" into an individual to be attracted to people of the same sex, and even repulsed by the idea of being with people of the opposite sex, they still have the ability to CHOOSE who they are going to be with. A gay person can still choose to not live a gay life. It's not a judgment (one way or the other) of what they SHOULD do. It's just a statement of the fact that people are capable of making choices, even if those choices aren't "natural" for them.

The things that an individual have to take into account, when making choices about this (or anything) are based on what they are willing to deal with, in the society in which they live. I think what he's getting at is... NO actions can really be totally determined by genetics. As long as you are capable of making a decision, you are capable of ignoring your natural tenancies to act on what "feels right".

Edit: I'm also pretty sure Ron used this topic as a metaphor for certain other topics.

well said. yay! its a hypertechincal point and not a judgment on what people should do.

[Marc with a c]

i can really go either way

[happytypinggirl]

I've knew a few gays growing up, it's definitely something people have in them either biologically, physiologically, genes.etc...It's a choice to go fuck someone of the same sex, but the lust is ingrained in the DNA to make that choice. Two entirely different things.

I remember a guy growing up at 10 years old that was basically a girl, the way he talked, walked, everything about him was feminine. I remember asking him what his deal was, and he replied, nothing was wrong and that the way he acted was what he felt was normal and he was just doing what he felt was natural. Years later, society backlashed on him as he was definitely gay as he decided to act on his sexuality. Got the shit kicked out of him almost everyday in HighSchool for it, but to him it was the natural way he felt, it's just who he was.

Like Black Earl was born with Black genes, this guy was born with the gay gene or whatever physical determining factor, and it's not an excuse, it's just a fact of life. Just like anything else.


soooo because he was that way at 10, you're certain he was that way at age 1? are you absolutely certain that this person would have the same sexual preferences if they had been taken from their parents at birth and raised in a village in africa? or in tokyo? or in some future century or past one? are you certain that "who he is" was solely a result of biological make up? sorry im just not willing to be so sure about that. so many things could have influenced why he had "girl" charactertics.

did you ever consider that maybe he was born with certain 'girl' characteristics but not with a preference for fucking men? but maybe those girl characteristics in combination with the way our society reacts to those traits affected his sexuality in some way?

just thinking out loud here. i dont claim to have the answers. just possibilities.

[Serpico1103]

soooo because he was that way at 10, you're certain he was that way at age 1? are you absolutely certain that this person would have the same sexual preferences if they had been taken from their parents at birth and raised in a village in africa? or in tokyo? or in some future century or past one? are you certain that "who he is" was solely a result of biological make up? sorry im just not willing to be so sure about that. so many things could have influenced why he had "girl" charactertics.

did you ever consider that maybe he was born with certain 'girl' characteristics but not with a preference for fucking men? but maybe those girl characteristics in combination with the way our society reacts to those traits affected his sexuality in some way?

just thinking out loud here. i dont claim to have the answers. just possibilities.

I agree that everything you are as an adult is a combination of many factors; nature and nurture. As you said, he was born with certain girl characteristics, so why could not one of those characteristics be an attraction to men. If society didn't make it such a big issue, it would just be one of the million things that each individual who they are.
I think by saying "being" gay is a choice, not the manifestation of gay behavior, that you are making it easier to discriminate against gay people. So, I am not "invested" in being right about homosexuality being an innate characteristic, I just think by saying it is a choice, people can feel comfortable attacking that choice.

[romerocortez]

The thing that I really disagreed with was when Ronnie B. compared being gay to preferring only Asian chicks or fat chicks or whatever. I don't think that applies to being attracted to men or women or neither. With that said, I think the discussion is important. Are people "choosing" to go against the way things have always been done or are people "not choosing" to go with the grain when they are gay? Are straight people "choosing" their lifestyle or are both lifestyles "natural"? If homosexuality is not actually "natural", is that even a bad thing?

[happytypinggirl]

I agree that everything you are as an adult is a combination of many factors; nature and nurture. As you said, he was born with certain girl characteristics, so why could not one of those characteristics be an attraction to men. If society didn't make it such a big issue, it would just be one of the million things that each individual who they are.
I think by saying "being" gay is a choice, not the manifestation of gay behavior, that you are making it easier to discriminate against gay people. So, I am not "invested" in being right about homosexuality being an innate characteristic, I just think by saying it is a choice, people can feel comfortable attacking that choice.

wow what do i have to do to make it clear that i dont think your sexual attractions-- whether gay or straight or otherwise, is a conscious choice? what am i saying wrong that i cant seem to be clear about that. someone help!!!!!! :blink:

also, i want to reiterate i haven't completely ruled out biology as a factor, i just dont get why people are so content to end the discussion there when there really isnt evidence either way.

and the solution is to education and change the minds of the attackers regardless of whether your sexual attractions are formed as a result of choice, genetics, nature, environment, nuture, media, climate or whatever. if its wrong to attack someone's biology, its equally wrong to attack them for other reasons.

ok, im tired. i'll let it go for now. but its been fun yakking about it. love the debate this has stirred up.

[Serpico1103]

wow what do i have to do to make it clear that i dont think your sexual attractions-- whether gay or straight or otherwise, is a conscious choice? what am i saying wrong that i cant seem to be clear about that. someone help!!!!!! :blink:

also, i want to reiterate i haven't completely ruled out biology as a factor, i just dont get why people are so content to end the discussion there when there really isnt evidence either way.

and the solution is to education and change the minds of the attackers regardless of whether your sexual attractions are formed as a result of choice, genetics, nature, environment, nuture, media, climate or whatever. if its wrong to attack someone's biology, its equally wrong to attack them for other reasons.

ok, im tired. i'll let it go for now. but its been fun yakking about it. love the debate this has stirred up.

I understood what you saying, just found it odd that you accepted "certain" girl characteristics, and attraction to men isn't as easy to accept.
Of course, it is wrong, and hurtful to society, to discriminate whether it is nature or nurture. But, I think it would be harder to defend discrimination if "God" made people that way.
Please be clearer in the future. :tongue:

[happytypinggirl]

I understood what you saying, just found it odd that you accepted "certain" girl characteristics, and attraction to men isn't as easy to accept.
Of course, it is wrong, and hurtful to society, to discriminate whether it is nature or nurture. But, I think it would be harder to defend discrimination if "God" made people that way.
Please be clearer in the future. :tongue:

nah i didnt accept or not accept. im just hypothesizing here. showing that the things you believe aren't necessarily true. i have no clue the 'real' truth is.


and i dont think its harder to discriminate if "God" made people that way. just for arguments sake-- couldn't you argue that something "God" made was a defect or a handicap? like missing a leg? what about people who say they were "born" pedofiles? i wont bother naming all the birth defects i can think of, AND IM NOT SAYING BEING GAY IS A BIRTH DEFECT...just saying that being born somthing doens't make something more acceptable.

and even if it did...thats a silly reason to believe you're born that way. just because it makes someting easier to defend, doesn't make it true.















ooooh one more thing just to really complicate things...im sure there are SOME people out there, who do make a choice to be gay. not the majority, or even a sizable minority...but some. ok that should fuck up all the work i did trying to make it clear that i dont think its a choice. :)

hate me yet?

[Recyclerz]

...i dont think you choose your preferences. but i dont necessarily thing that you are born gay. i dont necessarily think that being straight or gay is something that is biological and predetermined before birth. and i find it baffling that so many people are so invested in that idea, without there really being any evidence. i dont know why people want to believe it so much. im also not saying that im certain it isnt biological either.

but my beliefs, based on a lot of thought, are, that your sexual preferences, like every other preference you have in life, is based on any number of millions of complicated factors including, your experiences, some of your physical features, your influences, media, subconscious, the environment you grow up in, your friends, teachers, hell maybe even the wallpaper in your bedroom, and with some people those preferences will stay the same throughout their lifetime and with some people they will change. but i do not believe that every person who is straight was born to be straight and i do not believe that every person who has ever been attracted to a member of the same sex, was born

imo, you dont actively control your sexual preferences. period.

....

I hear you and I don't actively disagree with anything you're saying. I think I was reacting to the emphasis on environmental factors in your argument to challenge the belief/idea that "gay" is hard-wired in the DNA. I think Serpico and some of the others in this thread have hit on the answer as to why that belief has appeal to some - if "gay" is genetically (or otherwise biologically) based then it is easier to attack discriminatory practices against gays with a "They can't help it!" or, as Serpico said, "God made them that way" argument. Of course, if we lived in a more tolerant society this questions would be less important.

I'm still in the camp that we don't understand enough about how the brain works yet to come to a final decision.

[happytypinggirl]

I hear you and I don't actively disagree with anything you're saying. I think I was reacting to the emphasis on environmental factors in your argument to challenge the belief/idea that "gay" is hard-wired in the DNA. I think Serpico and some of the others in this thread have hit on the answer as to why that belief has appeal to some - if "gay" is genetically (or otherwise biologically) based then it is easier to attack discriminatory practices against gays with a "They can't help it!" or, as Serpico said, "God made them that way" argument. Of course, if we lived in a more tolerant society this questions would be less important.

I'm still in the camp that we don't understand enough about how the brain works yet to come to a final decision.

agreed.

i just hate going with an argument based only on the fact that it makes something feel more acceptable. i think thats exactly what happened and i think its a mistake.

[cigarsandscotch]

I think this thread title is heresy.

[Serpico1103]

I think this thread title is heresy.

I said "slightly" in the hopes of not offending the sycophants.

[cigarsandscotch]

I said "slightly" in the hopes of not offending the sycophants.

Who the hell do you think you're calling a sick elephant?:nono:

[Dirtybird12]

obviously the man is confused. have you seen that hair? he still thinks it's 1969.

fuckin' hippy:wacko: