Does anyone else here think the terrorists won?

[Alice S. Fuzzybutt]

I'm thinking Osama is getting what he wanted.

It's seven years after 9/11 and where are we as a nation? The government has had to bail out two major mortgage lenders because of of the sub-prime mortgage debacle. Bear Sterns failed, and Lehman is on the BRINK of failure (and the gov't made a "loan" to JPMorgan to buy Bear Sterns). As taxpayers, we are funding a war that the majority of us don't support. It's draining our funds, thus taking money from our infrastructure. The "Patriot" Act has taken away some of our freedoms. The 9/11 first responders aren't getting the medical or financial help that they need. HELL, Ground Zero is still a hole after SEVEN YEARS because of bureaucracy.

Plus, Bush is just an EMBARRASSMENT as a leader.

Last night I left work (in JC) and the memorial lights were on. I automatically thought how we should have gone with Donald Trump's idea (that will be the LAST time you will ever hear me side with him) that we should have built the towers exactly as they were but added one more story. If it took 10 years to build 35 plus years ago, we could have surely gotten it done by now.

I'm not really politically or economically savvy. I KNOW that after a major economic bubble the market will "correct" itself. Apparently it's correcting itself in a MAJOR WAY. I dunno, in my gut, I'm really thinking this is the beginning of the end of the US as a Super Power.

I hate having this feeling of dread, but I think I'm being realistic. Granted, as a person of Eastern-European heritage, I AUTOMATICALLY go to the worst-case scenario.

Am I off base here??? Am I alone in this feeling?

[patsopinion]

president bush was an embarrassment to begin with

the patriot act is the only thing that is directly due to 9/11 on the first half of that list

yes i think they won
they wanted us to invade a pure muslim state
Muslim extremists in Pakistan could be getting the bomb in just a matter of minutes


the saudi's havent failed yet though and that was the true goal.

but it that is comming probably

[Fez4PrezN2008]

Naah, they didn't win...












but I do like hummas now

[ChrisTheCop]

One of em HAD to win...

http://www.joe-ks.com/archives_jun2001/MissIran.jpg

[TooLowBrow]

this is like, in the war on drugs, did drugs win?
no, but did we win the fight? no
if we're promoting freedom, we are promoting the right to speak and act against situations that are seen as unjust.

our invading iraq probably was terrifying for some innocent people. but if they had tried shooting uday and kusay without us there, they would have been terrorists. the whole thing is nuts

[Alice S. Fuzzybutt]

but I do like hummas now

Do you mean hummus????

http://www.anneharveyillustration.com/blog/images/hummus.jpg

LERVE the hummus, baba ghanouj, stuffed grape leaves...





I'm being serious and all I get is idiots... except for Chris the Cop. He always rocks in my book.

[TooLowBrow]

but I do like hummas now

or hamas?
http://patdollard.com/wp-content/uploads/hamas_war04021.jpg

[One Dead Fred]

I thought the terrorists won as soon as we started getting extra tax for homeland security. The restrictions on air flights. The patriot act.

It made me remember Reagan's plan to outspend Russia to financially break them. Next thing you know, the Berlin wall is coming down and Russia is now our best friend. Because of our instant news, all the terrorists have to do is announce they might attack. And occasionally make an attack. Even the unsuccessful ones get reported a million times. We react with more costly restrictions, more machines to detect shit, and spending gobs of money to stop an extra attack once in a while. The terrorists are Reaganites.:drunk:

[TooLowBrow]

I thought the terrorists won as soon as we started getting extra tax for homeland security. The restrictions on air flights. The patriot act.



i had to take off my shoes to get on a ferry. so the terrorist have even won in areas that they havent even thought of.

[One Dead Fred]

Exactly! they're good.

[Sue_Bender]

I have NO faith in either party.



It depresses me greatly.





We can't win...




can we?!

[moochcassidy]

theres a school of thought that says terrorism (modern urban guerilla warfare) cant be defeated.

theres probably only 500 streets in the catholic parts of belfast and 35 years of british counter insurgency couldnt clear them.

or the more total actions in Palestine. seems the bigger the reaction to terrorism the knock back on the occupied is even greater. like escalation causes a multiplier effect on the cycle of violence.

suppose it remains to be seen if a war on the whole concept of Terrorism can be won. the cold war style occupations of iraq and Afghanistan (another textbook example with the Mujahideen in the 80's) certainly havent gone to plan and i doubt many historians would describe as successes.

previous models would lead us to believe occupation has increased the level of determination to resist, put more occupying forces into positions of vulnerability (driving up the human and economic costs at home) while hardening attitudes in the surrounding regions.

As we revert to old strategies of Imperial style invasion/nationbuilding exercises, other cold war favourites like 'nuclear standoff' look more likely with Iran, N Korea and maybe Russia.

So I think in that way yeah the 9/11 bombers won- they rasied the stakes. Bush went all in.

and here we are pals

[Fez4PrezN2008]

Do you mean hummus????

http://www.anneharveyillustration.com/blog/images/hummus.jpg

LERVE the hummus, baba ghanouj, stuffed grape leaves...





I'm being serious and all I get is idiots... except for Chris the Cop. He always rocks in my book.
Yes, that's the stuff, however you spell it. I spell it D-E-L-I-C-I-O-U-S and I was being serious, it was a tounge-in-cheek commentary on me confronting my xeonophobia. Poingnant in that special F4P way where saying little says a lot.














































but yeah, I'm an idiot

[K.C.]

theres a school of thought that says terrorism (modern urban guerilla warfare) cant be defeated.


It can in a societal sense, but not in a militaristic one, or even really a political one.






As for Fuzzy's title question...

No, it's still on-going. The goal of Bin Laden was to make himself the leading authority of the Muslim world by driving the U.S. from the Middle East, and then toppling the Saudi government, to retake Saudi Arabia as a fundamentalist Islamic state (which is actually a popular idea over there...most of the Muslim world hates the Saudi government).

None of that has happened, so you can't say they really achieved their goals.



So I wouldn't say the terrorists have won, but we sure as hell haven't either. We've sunk trillions into foreign countries and wars while our economy runs dry, and are really close to a lose-lose situation in relation to deciding our future course with Iraq.


I guess the silver lining in it all is that it's kind of finally made the people of this country aware of geo-strategic politics, and why alternative and renewable energies are so important, not just from an economy standpoint, but from a political standpoint in dealing with the Middle East.



But the bottom line...no winners, as of right now.

[Rock Coat Man]

The goal was to get the US to be afraid and have the government spend (waste) more of its money. They've won.http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:ipu_aInSMmqPSM:http://blogs.phillyburbs.com

[moochcassidy]

It can in a societal sense, but not in a militaristic one, or even really a political one.


militaristic?

not sure what your getting at there

[Rock Coat Man]

Ten billion $$ a month.

[patsopinion]

i think were all missing the point
the muslims with the nukes hate us

that is the most pivotal issue in this debate

[sailor]

Do you mean hummus????

http://www.anneharveyillustration.com/blog/images/hummus.jpg

LERVE the hummus, baba ghanouj, stuffed grape leaves...





I'm being serious and all I get is idiots... except for Chris the Cop. He always rocks in my book.

at this point you'd received 2 serious and 2 silly responses (and you wrote off one of the silly 2). that's an incredible percentage on here. and why would one, lone silly response get to you so?

[moochcassidy]

i think were all missing the point
the muslims with the nukes hate us

that is the most pivotal issue in this debate

dont forget the freedom...they hate your freedom

[frye hole]

dont forget the freedoms...they hate your freedoms


fixed it

[EliSnow]

theres a school of thought that says terrorism (modern urban guerilla warfare) cant be defeated.

theres probably only 500 streets in the catholic parts of belfast and 35 years of british counter insurgency couldnt clear them.

or the more total actions in Palestine. seems the bigger the reaction to terrorism the knock back on the occupied is even greater. like escalation causes a multiplier effect on the cycle of violence.


Yeah, but your examples are where the "terrorists"/guerillas are on their home turf/where they live fighting against a superior military force. That's not what's happening here. You could argue it's happening in Iraq, but not on our home turf. And BTW, terrorism/guerilla warfare has never been successful in toppling a government/country that not near the home operations of the terrorist/guerillas.

And no I don't think the terrorists won. Bin Laden's ultimate goal was not to have the US invade a muslim state. It's to have the US out of the Middle East forever. He wanted to portray us as invaders to rally muslims of all countries together to kick us out of Saudi Arabia, Palestine, etc. I don't see that happening in the foreseeable future, despite some missteps we're having.

So what about Bin Laden. Well we've devastated his group such that they are still recovering from it. Yes, every now and then you hear that they are getting stronger again. And it looks like they are making an offensive in Afghanistan, but they haven't taken over. A number of his subordinates have been killed and/or captured. And whether he's in Pakistan or Afgahnistan, while he has supporters, he doesn't have an official government protecting him.

As for the Patriot Act being a sign that the terrorists won, that's falling into the bullshit rhetoric that the terrorist hate our freedom and that the only way to beat them is to maintain our freedoms. The terrorists are not "freedom haters." They hate us because we are a non-muslim, Western, secular force that has huge influence over the Middle East with bases in the "Holy Land." The extremist muslims believe our government have or will take over through puppet leaders and that our culture will permeate to erode their relgious values and systems, such that women will be able to show their faces, calfs, and forearms in public and can press charges for rape without having 4 witnesses attest that the act of sex was not consenual (amongst other things of course).

Is the Patriot Act good for us? I don't think so, but it's not a sign that the terrorists won. It's a sign that we may have overreacted to an extent. But if we wiped out Bin Laden, Al Quaeda, and extremists everywhere, and we still had the Patriot Act or worse, would you really think that the terrrorists "won." It's like having a Super Bowl where the winning team's quarterback suffers a career ending injury that will hurt the franchise in years to come. Would you say that the losing team won the Super Bowl because of that injury?

[ChrisTheCop]

I'm being serious and all I get is idiots... except for Chris the Cop. He always rocks in my book.

Aww.. Ok, for that, I feel I should give a serious answer, for which I normally defer to the smarter folks on here, but ok. All is not lost, and we know all is not won. If their goal was to make us think of them every day and wonder what theyre up to, theyve won. If it was to topple our government, or our way of life, theyve lost. But as others have said, it's an ongoing battle that may never be decided.

Since September 11, 2001, there has not been one Al Qaeda attack on American soil. Some may say September 11th was enough for years to come, but trust me, the terrorists dont feel that way. Theyve tried to do more these past 7 years. Theyve failed each time.

And after reading the smart guys above me, I really have nothing more to add.
I'm off to find a jokey joke thread.

[Death Metal Moe]

They didn't win. We're not all muslims.

But I understand your point. They changed our way of life and that sucks. So they won a small victory in a war that we can't let them win.

[Tenbatsuzen]

Because we're constantly opening up that wound, I think the terrorists do win a little bit.

[K.C.]

Since September 11, 2001, there has not been one Al Qaeda attack on American soil. Some may say September 11th was enough for years to come, but trust me, the terrorists dont feel that way. Theyve tried to do more these past 7 years. Theyve failed each time.


But before 9/11, how many Al Qaeda attacks occured on US soil?

I think it's a red-herring to assume that Al Qaeda was going to continually trigger terrorist attacks all around this country.

Bin Laden found a weakness in US security, and exploited it. I'm sure if they located another potentially huge weakness like the airport security one, they may try and exploit it again, but I don't think attacks on American soil has EVER been their primary goal.

Even people who bring up "oh, well it's our friendship with Israel" I think are a bit misguided. That's more a Hamas issue than an Al Qaeda one (although, they will throw an occasional jab in there at Israel, but that's never seemed like a primary target either).



He wants Saudi Arabia and he's ALWAYS wanted Saudi Arabia...if he controls that, he gains legitimacy, and he gains access to the richest oil reserves in the World, and he probably becomes the most powerful Muslim leader in the World.

[oldladyfacepuncher]

Bush, his cronies, and the corporate slime who've turned the whole situation into a money machine are the winners. They've made fortunes, trampled our rights, are responsible for who knows how many civilian deaths, crapped all over our own military, and will NEVER be held accountable.

[A.J.]

Even people who bring up "oh, well it's our friendship with Israel" I think are a bit misguided. That's more a Hamas issue than an Al Qaeda one (although, they will throw an occasional jab in there at Israel, but that's never seemed like a primary target either).

He wants Saudi Arabia and he's ALWAYS wanted Saudi Arabia...if he controls that, he gains legitimacy, and he gains access to the richest oil reserves in the World, and he probably becomes the most powerful Muslim leader in the World.

Umm, yeah: the friendship with Israel IS an issue. It's mentioned specifically in bin Ladin's fatwa declaring war against the U.S.:

It should not be hidden from you that the people of Islam had suffered from aggression, iniquity and injustice imposed on them by the Zionist-Crusaders alliance and their collaborators; to the extent that the Muslims blood became the cheapest and their wealth as loot in the hands of the enemies.

The people of Islam awakened and realised that they are the main target for the aggression of the Zionist-Crusaders alliance.

Today we work from the same mountains to lift the iniquity that had been imposed on the Ummah by the Zionist-Crusader alliance, particularly after they have occupied the blessed land around Jerusalem, route of the journey of the Prophet

My Muslim Brothers of The World:
Your brothers in Palestine and in the land of the two Holy Places are calling upon your help and asking you to take part in fighting against the enemy --your enemy and their enemy-- the Americans and the Israelis. they are asking you to do whatever you can, with one own means and ability, to expel the enemy, humiliated and defeated, out of the sanctities of Islam

Does the regime (of Saudi Arabia) want to play the civilians against their military personnel and vice versa, like what had happened in some of the neighbouring countries?!! No doubts this is the policy of the American-Israeli alliance as they are the first to benefit from this situation.

But with the grace of Allah, the majority of the nation, both civilians and military individuals are aware of the wicked plan. They refused to be played against each others and to be used by the regime as a tool to carry out the policy of the American-Israeli alliance through their agent in our country: the Saudi regime.

Utmost effort should be made to prepare and instigate the Ummah against the enemy, the American-Israeli alliance- occupying the country of the two Holy Places and the route of the Apostle (Allah's Blessings and Salutations may be on him) to the Furthest Mosque (Al-Aqsa Mosque).

Division of the land of the two Holy Places, and annexing of the northerly part of it by Israel. Dividing the land of the two Holy Places is an essential demand of the Zionist-Crusader alliance. (http://www.pbs.org/newshour/terrorism/international/fatwa_1996.html)

But I think that Al-Qa'ida hasn't been as successful because there are competing tribal factors at play that make unity impossible. It's the same reason most of the Arab countries don't get along. Lawrence of Arabia's words are still true today:

So long as the Arabs fight tribe against tribe, so long will they be a little people, a silly people - greedy, barbarous, and cruel, as you are.

[JerseySean]

theres a school of thought that says terrorism (modern urban guerilla warfare) cant be defeated.

theres probably only 500 streets in the catholic parts of belfast and 35 years of british counter insurgency couldnt clear them.

or the more total actions in Palestine. seems the bigger the reaction to terrorism the knock back on the occupied is even greater. like escalation causes a multiplier effect on the cycle of violence.

suppose it remains to be seen if a war on the whole concept of Terrorism can be won. the cold war style occupations of iraq and Afghanistan (another textbook example with the Mujahideen in the 80's) certainly havent gone to plan and i doubt many historians would describe as successes.

previous models would lead us to believe occupation has increased the level of determination to resist, put more occupying forces into positions of vulnerability (driving up the human and economic costs at home) while hardening attitudes in the surrounding regions.

As we revert to old strategies of Imperial style invasion/nationbuilding exercises, other cold war favourites like 'nuclear standoff' look more likely with Iran, N Korea and maybe Russia.

So I think in that way yeah the 9/11 bombers won- they rasied the stakes. Bush went all in.

and here we are pals

As an FYI, I had family that used to send guns and cash to Belfast from NJ. Every week they used to have a collection at a bar. Keep killin the Brits Mooch!

[K.C.]

Umm, yeah: the friendship with Israel IS an issue. It's mentioned specifically in bin Ladin's fatwa declaring war against the U.S.:


It's a political tactic to firm up his support.

Israel/Palestine is one of the most explosive issues in the Arab world, and one of the easiest to rally support on. He has to offer an opinion on it.



I'm not saying he doesn't care about it. It's just not his primary goal. This thing, from Al Qaeda's side, is more about Saudi Arabia than anything else.

[Fez4PrezN2008]

at this point you'd received 2 serious and 2 silly responses (and you wrote off one of the silly 2). that's an incredible percentage on here. and why would one, lone silly response get to you so?
Wait - Does that put me back to being the lone silly response? If so, I'll shore it up with this; as long as we are free to post our opinions and even dumb jokes here, and we all still have most of our freedoms (although some have been admittedly bruised), then no terror has not won. We are going to have economic problems anyway, part of the great thing about this country is how we can adapt and overcome just about any hardship or obsticle that is thrown our way. Focus on the dopeness of the US not the wackness. I am confident that we'll all live though the hard times no matter who is prez and who is our current enemy. What doesn't kill you can only make you stronger.

[A.J.]

I'm not saying he doesn't care about it. It's just not his primary goal. This thing, from Al Qaeda's side, is more about Saudi Arabia than anything else.

Partially - and, in addition to the reasons you mentioned before:

Originally Posted by K.C. View Post
He wants Saudi Arabia and he's ALWAYS wanted Saudi Arabia...if he controls that, he gains legitimacy, and he gains access to the richest oil reserves in the World, and he probably becomes the most powerful Muslim leader in the World.

...he'd also control Islam's two holiest sites.

But Iran wouldn't stand for that I don't think. The Sunni/Shia divide is strong and the oppressed Shia minority in Saudi Arabia would be an issue.

[YourAmishDaddy]

Osama bin Laden wanted one thing. Us out of the Prince Sultan Airbase in Saudi Arabia.

While this whole dog and pony show was going on, we quietly left that airbase on August 26, 2003.

They won.

[disneyspy]

Econonmically we were hurting before the attacks,trickle down doesnt work.
I agree with F4P08,we still enjoy many freedoms.
If the terrorist goals were to saddle the US with a president that would drag thecountry down economically,they won,we wouldnt have re-elected him on his financial progress.
The goal of terrorism is to cause terror,that has faded.
They didnt have anything to lose.
There are no winners or losers when terror is used,just perceptions are changed.
We'll all be okay,count on it