Can Obama open the military to open homosexuals? [Archive]

NewYorkDragons80

11-09-2008, 10:01 AM

scottinnj

11-09-2008, 10:14 AM

I was once against this, and I'm a veteran who was in when Clinton tried.

It should no longer be an issue. The military was so intent on busting the queers they ignored total debauchery among the heterosexuals. Trains, adultery and date rape were everywhere, and STDs were being transmitted not by gays, but by straights.

So while all of this was going on, we were told we shouldn't allow gays in the military because of AIDS, and wouldn't it be a shame if someone had a battlefield transfusion and caught the AIDS?

Well, we don't do things like that, battlefield "transfusions" a la MASH where two soldiers are linked together with a rubber tube. So the medical part is BS, and if you are an American who really wants to serve his/her country, why not?

yojimbo7248

11-09-2008, 10:18 AM

Like Clinton, Obama was elected on a promise to repeal "Don't Ask, Don't Tell". As Commander in Chief, will Obama take the lead and allow gays to serve openly? Will he wait to build enough support and earn the trust of the military's senior leadership? Or will he abandon it completely?

Do you guys think Obama is serious about allowing gays to serve or is he worried about alienating part of the electorate that earned his vote?

I bet allowing gays to openly serve in the military will be way down on his priority list. I think figuring out what to do about Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, North Korea, Pakistan, Taiwan Strait, etc. will keep him busy on the defense front. If he suddenly wants to be more supportive of gays, backing gay marriage would be a more obvious starting point than pissing off the Pentagon.

NewYorkDragons80

11-09-2008, 10:42 AM

I bet allowing gays to openly serve in the military will be way down on his priority list. I think figuring out what to do about Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, North Korea, Pakistan, Taiwan Strait, etc. will keep him busy on the defense front. If he suddenly wants to be more supportive of gays, backing gay marriage would be a more obvious starting point than pissing off the Pentagon.

Of course it's low on the priority list, but he's the Commander in Chief. He doesn't even need to go through Congress. He hasn't promised gay marriage, he doesn't even support it. He has, however, said he supports gays in the military and he has the power to change the policy instantaneously. I can understand if he waits 2 or 3 years to build a rapport with the DOD, but he doesn't have the power to legalize gaymarriage just like Bush doesn't have the power to ban them.

yojimbo7248

11-09-2008, 10:56 AM

Of course it's low on the priority list, but he's the Commander in Chief. He doesn't even need to go through Congress. He hasn't promised gay marriage, he doesn't even support it. He has, however, said he supports gays in the military and he has the power to change the policy instantaneously. I can understand if he waits 2 or 3 years to build a rapport with the DOD, but he doesn't have the power to legalize gaymarriage just like Bush doesn't have the power to ban them.

good point. I would be easier to open the military to gays than legalize gay marriage. However, I still think that he will hold off on doing it. Maybe 3 or so years down the road if he feels like the rapport is strong enough but I am guessing longer. Based on the UK, Canadian, and Australian experience, I don't think it will be that big of a deal when our military does let gays openly serve, at least in some MOS's. I know US intel officers who have worked with gay commonwealth military counterparts. Everyone was professional enough that it wasn't that big of a deal. I have talked to UK officers who were surprised at how few problems there were when gays starting serving openly. Maybe this is still a ways out but I doubt it would be more than 8 to 10 years that we will have gays openly serving in the military. A large percentage of the Navy is already there.

NewYorkDragons80

11-09-2008, 11:34 AM

Based on the UK, Canadian, and Australian experience, I don't think it will be that big of a deal when our military does let gays openly serve, at least in some MOS's. I know US intel officers who have worked with gay commonwealth military counterparts.
Of course it won't be a big deal. A Texan is 20x more likely to serve in the military than a New Yorker and the leadership is aware that they can't piss off that many people south of the Mason-Dixon line. Only problem is that every other employer in the country is legally required to allow gays, but it's easier for the GED-toting crowd to think they can only be found in interior design.

If gays were allowed to openly serve and they did a study, you would find that they gravitate towards intelligence more than anything else. I'd guess there's more of a curiosity towards politics, language, and outside cultures that comes from living outside of what the other 90% of people are doing.

A.J.

11-09-2008, 10:00 PM

Maybe this is still a ways out but I doubt it would be more than 8 to 10 years that we will have gays openly serving in the military. A large percentage of the Navy is already there.

Hey!

PapaBear

11-09-2008, 10:05 PM

Like Clinton, Obama was elected on a promise to repeal "Don't Ask, Don't Tell".
Correction... Clinton promised to work to allow gays in the military, but he backed down by CREATING "Don't Ask, Don't Tell", not promising to repeal it. Previous to Clinton's election, gays were prohibited in any way. "Don't Ask" was the cop out rule that was created that pissed off ESD's brother so much.

NewYorkDragons80

11-10-2008, 03:55 AM

Correction... Clinton promised to work to allow gays in the military, but he backed down by CREATING "Don't Ask, Don't Tell", not promising to repeal it. Previous to Clinton's election, gays were prohibited in any way. "Don't Ask" was the cop out rule that was created that pissed off ESD's brother so much.

You're right. I messed that one up.

Hottub

11-10-2008, 04:03 AM

Hey!

http://www.trashfiction.co.uk/in_the_navy.jpg

Just saying.

yojimbo7248

11-10-2008, 04:20 AM

Hey!

Just joking with you naval guys. It doesn't count as gay if you are out at sea.

Dude!

11-10-2008, 05:07 AM

Just joking with you naval guys. It doesn't count as gay if you are out at sea.

they are sea-men after all

EliSnow

11-10-2008, 05:07 AM

Just joking with you naval guys. It doesn't count as gay if you are out at sea.

Or if you're going down on a sub.

Oops, I mean in a sub.

TheMojoPin

11-10-2008, 05:38 AM

Trains, adultery and date rape were everywhere

Were? They haven't gone anywhere. Sexual assault in the military is rampant.

A.J.

11-10-2008, 06:11 AM

Were? They haven't gone anywhere. Sexual assault in the military is rampant.

Uh oh: the Marine Ball is the weekend!

A.J.

11-10-2008, 06:12 AM

http://www.trashfiction.co.uk/in_the_navy.jpg

Just saying.

No more smokes for you, Creep.

Zorro

11-10-2008, 07:44 AM

Just to relate my experience...I was in the Air Force from like 80-86...medical unit. I was amazed at the amount of gay women and men. More importantly nobody cared. It wasn't until the aids epidemic started that it became an issue. The military did not want to pay the healthcare costs and the religous zealots...(everybody or another was a pastor) saw it as the wrath of God.

So you had the perfect storm of hate and the witch hunt began. There have always been gays in the military and their always will be. Forcing them to serve in secret creates more problems than it solves...

NewYorkDragons80

11-10-2008, 01:00 PM

Just to relate my experience...I was in the Air Force from like 80-86...medical unit. I was amazed at the amount of gay women and men. More importantly nobody cared. It wasn't until the aids epidemic started that it became an issue. The military did not want to pay the healthcare costs and the religous zealots...(everybody or another was a pastor) saw it as the wrath of God.
I debate this issue on the Military Times forums and I get so infuriated when people mention AIDS as a reason not to allow gays in the military. If that were the issue, then they should ban everyone but lesbians. What kind of experiences did you have about tolerance in the medical field? I've heard that officer-enlisted relationships are tolerated in the medical and legal fields.

scottinnj

11-10-2008, 03:04 PM

I debate this issue on the Military Times forums and I get so infuriated when people mention AIDS as a reason not to allow gays in the military. If that were the issue, then they should ban everyone but lesbians. What kind of experiences did you have about tolerance in the medical field? I've heard that officer-enlisted relationships are tolerated in the medical and legal fields.

What gets me, is that when I was in, there was this girl, married to a guy in another unit, who would get drunk and get railed every night by whoever was willing to let her suck him up. She was so bad, her blowjobs spread the clap. I'm not joking. But she never was bothered with, even though adultery was a violation of the Uniform Code of Military Justice.
Her MOS? Personnel, a job any dope who can type can do.

Bush's Army got a whole buch of Arabic translators dishonorably discharged because they were gay. Did they tell? Nope. Did the Army ask? Well their commanders did, in one case, went as far as to look for one of the soldiers posts on a gay message board to see if he said "I'm a homosexual" in any of his posts. When he found one, he printed it out, and wrote up charges to have the soldier go through an Article 15 in Germany.
He was in the field doing his job when he was told to pack his bags to go back to his unit's home base in Europe, where he was totally useless to the U.S. Army.

Do you know how much it costs us in money and loss of talent?

Not even the GAO knows. (http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d05299.pdf) And with our efforts to win "hearts and minds" in the muslim world to prevent terrorism, that we don't even know how bad we are off by doing this to our gay soldiers is fucking frightening to me.

scottinnj

11-10-2008, 03:17 PM

From the GAO report:

Table 1: Number of Separations of Active Duty Servicemembers for Homosexual Conduct by Fiscal Year and Military Service

Sources: Defense Manpower Data Center (data); GAO (data).

Fiscal year Army Air Force Marines Navy Total
1994 136 185 36 258 615
1995 184 235 69 269 757
1996 199 284 60 315 858
1997 197 309 78 413 997
1998 310 414 76 345 1,145
1999 271 352 97 313 1,033
2000 574 177 104 358 1,213
2001 626 190 111 290 1,217
2002 432 125 105 222 884
2003 378 142 62 187 769
Total 3,307 2,413 798 2,970 9,488

And according to the report, this is only "active duty" soldiers-national guard and reservists were not included.

furie

11-10-2008, 03:20 PM

is gays in the military still an issue?

scottinnj

11-10-2008, 03:33 PM

is gays in the military still an issue?

Unfortunately, for some (http://www.grassfire.org/111/petition.asp?pid=18691210) it still is.

And I quote:

Specifically, I Resist:

Weakening of our military through rapid pullback from Iraq, defunding our troops and overall disarmament.

Social liberalism including radical pro-abortion agenda, the end of marriage and the homosexual agenda

yojimbo7248

11-10-2008, 03:42 PM

When I was in OBC, we had a Chaplain come and talk to us about how to take care of the spiritual needs of the soldiers. He spent about a third of the time talking about Clinton messing up the army by the 'don't ask, don't tell policy' and how he would immediately resign his commission if gays could ever openly serve. so, yes, it is still a problem for some but hopefully fewer and fewer.

NewYorkDragons80

11-10-2008, 05:25 PM

What gets me, is that when I was in, there was this girl, married to a guy in another unit, who would get drunk and get railed every night by whoever was willing to let her suck him up. She was so bad, her blowjobs spread the clap. I'm not joking. But she never was bothered with, even though adultery was a violation of the Uniform Code of Military Justice.
Her MOS? Personnel, a job any dope who can type can do.

Bush's Army got a whole buch of Arabic translators dishonorably discharged because they were gay. Did they tell? Nope. Did the Army ask? Well their commanders did, in one case, went as far as to look for one of the soldiers posts on a gay message board to see if he said "I'm a homosexual" in any of his posts. When he found one, he printed it out, and wrote up charges to have the soldier go through an Article 15 in Germany.
He was in the field doing his job when he was told to pack his bags to go back to his unit's home base in Europe, where he was totally useless to the U.S. Army.

Do you know how much it costs us in money and loss of talent?

Not even the GAO knows. (http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d05299.pdf) And with our efforts to win "hearts and minds" in the muslim world to prevent terrorism, that we don't even know how bad we are off by doing this to our gay soldiers is fucking frightening to me.

Scott, you fuckin rule. You forgot to mention that Korean translators were also part of that gay intel purge back in 02 or 03. I had 2 friends in ROTC who were lesbians and one got out before commissioning and the other ended up in the reserves. Either one was otherwise competent enough to fly a space shuttle if they wanted to, but couldn't live a lie on a day to day basis. It disgusts me that it's still an issue.

NewYorkDragons80

11-10-2008, 05:38 PM

paracetamol flanders

11-10-2008, 06:02 PM

The way things are going, the gay community may be all that's left to recruit into the armed forces. I'm sure the currently deployed ground troops would greet such reinforcements with a rousing chorus of: it's raining paratroopers, hallelujah!

scottinnj

11-10-2008, 06:05 PM

it's raining paratroopers, hallelujah!

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o217/themarshal/booo.gif

paracetamol flanders

11-10-2008, 06:15 PM

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h287/djphaedra/boo-radley1.jpg

Boo

NewYorkDragons80

11-11-2008, 03:32 AM

yojimbo7248

11-11-2008, 04:29 AM

And what about the pretext that many elite schools use to ban ROTC from campus by claiming the military is discriminatory. How many linguists and cultural specialists have we lost to keep the hayseeds happy?

I couldn't agree more. I was a company commander in a MI BN earlier this year and the number one priority was retention and recruitment. We simply could not keep our unit at mobilizing strength and there will be tons of cross-leveling when the unit deploys in 2009. I had to brief the CO every month on our efforts to bring in more soldiers and officers. As you said NewYorkDragon80, the army doesn't have the luxury to turn away gays to please the hayseeds. It's just stupid to kick out Arab and Korean linguists who had already been through DLI training. I get especially frustrated when I talk to black officers who are against gays serving in the military. All of the arguments about hurting morale and unit cohesion are the same as the whites used to keep the army from integrating and the black experience shows that it's bullshit.

NewYorkDragons80

11-11-2008, 08:04 AM

I couldn't agree more. I was a company commander in a MI BN earlier this year and the number one priority was retention and recruitment. We simply could not keep our unit at mobilizing strength and there will be tons of cross-leveling when the unit deploys in 2009. I had to brief the CO every month on our efforts to bring in more soldiers and officers. As you said NewYorkDragon80, the army doesn't have the luxury to turn away gays to please the hayseeds. It's just stupid to kick out Arab and Korean linguists who had already been through DLI training. I get especially frustrated when I talk to black officers who are against gays serving in the military. All of the arguments about hurting morale and unit cohesion are the same as the whites used to keep the army from integrating and the black experience shows that it's bullshit.

Part of that is plain old bureaucratic stupidity. I speak Arabic and have a 130 DLAB score and they put me in logistics.

Zorro

11-11-2008, 08:39 AM

NewYorkDragons80

11-11-2008, 08:47 AM

I love the fact that you call other people hayseeds yet live in a state that bans equal rights for gays. Pot-Kettle

Right now I live in Jersey, but are you saying New York is full of hayseeds who are preventing gays from serving in the military? Because outside of California, NY is ground zero for the push to allow gays in the military. I'd know because I was in a ROTC detachment in NYC that had cadets from Columbia.

yojimbo7248

11-11-2008, 08:47 AM

Part of that is plain old bureaucratic stupidity. I speak Arabic and have a 130 DLAB score and they put me in logistics.

Holy shit, I hate hearing stories like yours. There are lots of them out there. My company was all linguists so I would hear about 3/3 level speakers in transportation or other units. I would contact the soldiers, try to change their MOS and bring them in to our unit so the army could use their language ability. It was always a big turf battle and very difficult for stupid, petty reasons.

NewYorkDragons80

11-11-2008, 09:21 AM

Holy shit, I hate hearing stories like yours. There are lots of them out there. My company was all linguists so I would hear about 3/3 level speakers in transportation or other units. I would contact the soldiers, try to change their MOS and bring them in to our unit so the army could use their language ability. It was always a big turf battle and very difficult for stupid, petty reasons.

In the interest of full disclosure, I was a UPT eliminee before that. So, I was in the middle of applying to be an OSI agent and they basically said, "Fuck you, you belong to logistics now. Try again in 2 years." Funny thing is, they didn't even know I existed until I called them as part of the OSI application process.

Zorro

11-11-2008, 12:03 PM

Right now I live in Jersey, but are you saying New York is full of hayseeds who are preventing gays from serving in the military? Because outside of California, NY is ground zero for the push to allow gays in the military. I'd know because I was in a ROTC detachment in NYC that had cadets from Columbia.

It may be ground zero, but its still illegal for gays to marry in New York and New York Politicos all talk shit about equal rights...blah...blah...blah and do nothing.

...BTW...in a later post you mention OSI...as in Air Force OSI? When I was in the agents at our base were cool, but their commander was a complete asshole. Used to write commentaries in the base newspaper about how when he signed the credit card slip (I know ... ages ago) with a US Government issued pen we were all criminals. ...and the prick reported me because I was wearing a lines pass while getting gas off base.

K.C.

11-11-2008, 05:08 PM

My initial reaction was no, he won't propose it, because Obama is a pretty shrewd politician with a lofty agenda, and he wouldn't want to squander political capital on it at first.

But then after I thought about it, with the Democratic majorities in Congress, it is very possible that any gay rights legislation proposed in the Congress would clear pretty easily.

And Obama would not veto a bill on this issue, if it made it to his desk, so yes, my guess is that this will be addressed, and barring something like a lawsuit and a Supreme Court decision overruling any legislation (I'm not even sure how Scalia could rationalize that one), my guess is openly gay people will be admitted to serve in the military during this Presidency.

scottinnj

11-14-2008, 09:28 PM

I love the fact that you call other people hayseeds yet live in a state that bans equal rights for gays. Pot-Kettle

How does the fact that he lives in Jersey or NY somehow makes his personal opinion a moot point?

You sir, get a .......
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o217/themarshal/booo.gif

NewYorkDragons80

11-17-2008, 06:55 AM

It may be ground zero, but its still illegal for gays to marry in New York and New York Politicos all talk shit about equal rights...blah...blah...blah and do nothing.

...BTW...in a later post you mention OSI...as in Air Force OSI? When I was in the agents at our base were cool, but their commander was a complete asshole. Used to write commentaries in the base newspaper about how when he signed the credit card slip (I know ... ages ago) with a US Government issued pen we were all criminals. ...and the prick reported me because I was wearing a lines pass while getting gas off base.
I get what you're saying about NY, but we're talking about gays in the military, which is a federal issue and you brought up gay marriage, which is a state issue. Even so, NY is a 55-45 against marriage state at worst. I'm giving the blanket term "hayseeds" to areas where a referendum would draw 65%+ against.

As for your question, yes I am talking about AFOSI. I really want to work somewhere like NYC where they won't expect me to do things like find out where the airman got the pot and I would be doing big picture anti-terrorism type stuff. That's 2 years in the future at this point, though.

Zorro

11-17-2008, 07:40 AM

I get what you're saying about NY, but we're talking about gays in the military, which is a federal issue and you brought up gay marriage, which is a state issue. Even so, NY is a 55-45 against marriage state at worst. I'm giving the blanket term "hayseeds" to areas where a referendum would draw 65%+ against.

As for your question, yes I am talking about AFOSI. I really want to work somewhere like NYC where they won't expect me to do things like find out where the airman got the pot and I would be doing big picture anti-terrorism type stuff. That's 2 years in the future at this point, though.

Yeah, but the bullshit is that any governor of any state could order the acceptance of gays into their national guard units. It would set off a firestorm of Federal vs States rights, but if they were serious about it they'd do it.

NewYorkDragons80

11-17-2008, 08:01 AM

Yeah, but the bullshit is that any governor of any state could order the acceptance of gays into their national guard units. It would set off a firestorm of Federal vs States rights, but if they were serious about it they'd do it.

That crossed my mind as I was typing it, but I think Guard units must meet certain standards outlined by the federal Guard Bureau, and the UCMJ is one of them.

Zorro

11-17-2008, 08:43 AM

That crossed my mind as I was typing it, but I think Guard units must meet certain standards outlined by the federal Guard Bureau, and the UCMJ is one of them.

They are and I'm sure the regs prohibit it, but what it would do is force the issue to the surface.

scottinnj

11-17-2008, 07:23 PM

The issue may be pressed from the inside as well:

Admirals, Generals: Let gays serve openly (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27774058/)

ANNAPOLIS, Md. - More than 100 retired generals and admirals called Monday for repeal of the military's "don't ask, don't tell" policy on gays so they can serve openly, according to a statement obtained by The Associated Press.

The move by the military veterans confronts the incoming administration of President-elect Barack Obama with a thorny political and cultural issue that dogged former President Bill Clinton early in his administration.

"As is the case with Great Britain, Israel, and other nations that allow gays and lesbians to serve openly, our service members are professionals who are able to work together effectively despite differences in race, gender, religion, and sexuality," the officers wrote.