North Korea

[underdog]

I don't know why, but I can't read or see enough about this country. Ever since I found out about the hotel the government was building then ran out of money, and then pretended it didn't exist, even though its the tallest structure there, I've wanted to see this place. And then I read about how there is fence around all the coast lines so people won't swim away. And fake buildings (http://www.trekearth.com/gallery/Asia/North_Korea/photo795564.htm). It's fucking craziness there. I'm looking forward to yerdaddy telling us what it is like to visit. Also, no traffic :

http://i1.trekearth.com/photos/21702/northkorea0509279eote.jpg

http://i1.trekearth.com/photos/5043/north_korea.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/90/Dprk_pyongyang_hotel_rugen_05_s.jpg

[MacVittie]

I just like the name Pyongyang.

[KnoxHarrington]

This video is about as neat a summation of what North Korea is like as you'll ever see.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/b4mRW-ZhD_o&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/b4mRW-ZhD_o&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[HBox]

I don't know why, but I can't read or see enough about this country. Ever since I found out about the hotel the government was building then ran out of money, and then pretended it didn't exist, even though its the tallest structure there, I've wanted to see this place. And then I read about how there is fence around all the coast lines so people won't swim away. And fake buildings (http://www.trekearth.com/gallery/Asia/North_Korea/photo795564.htm). It's fucking craziness there. I'm looking forward to yerdaddy telling us what it is like to visit. Also, no traffic :

http://i1.trekearth.com/photos/21702/northkorea0509279eote.jpg

http://i1.trekearth.com/photos/5043/north_korea.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/90/Dprk_pyongyang_hotel_rugen_05_s.jpg

Dude, I feel EXACTLY the same. Ever since I read about that hotel I just can't read enough about North Korea.

People there are fucked up too. They by and large completely buy into everything their government says. They legitimately believed that Kim jong Il's father was a God on earth. I saw this documentary about the place. They interviewed a bunch of people born in North Korea but who escaped. they started living in the real world and seeing the country for what it was. They spend the whole doc bashing the country. Then they are asked about when Kim Jong Il's father died. Not only did they openly admit they cried when they heard about, they started crying right there on camera. The same guy ho threw them into gulags and made them want to flee their country. And they couldn't even explain why.

I'd love to go there. There and Chernobyl. I have a morbid fascination with desolation.

Oh yeah, and those night time satellite photographs showing lights all over the place in South Korea and China but a huge black hole in North Korea are great too.

[KnoxHarrington]

There was a particularly terrifying piece on N. Korea on 60 Minutes where they went into the school system. And one of the books being taught there is "The Diary of Anne Frank".

Now, North Korea has their own spin on that book. Here, we'd read it as a journal of Anne Frank's courage against this ultimate evil, a testimony of someone the Nazis tried to snuff out. There, the kids are taught that it's all about what happens to you if you are weak. That is, it's Anne Frank's own goddam fault that she didn't fight the Nazis and ended up stuck in an attic.

The ulterior motive is clear: it's telling kids that if South Korea and or the Americans invade the North, they are to die fighting, not hide like Anne Frank. It's an utterly disgusting slur on the legacy of Anne Frank -- and the terrifying thing is all these little kids, really sweet little kids, seemed to be buying it.

It's always hard to tell in a totalitarian state what people really believe and what they say to stay out of trouble. But this seemed to be for real.

[KnoxHarrington]

Oh yeah, and those night time satellite photographs showing lights all over the place in South Korea and China but a huge black hole in North Korea are great too.

Here you go:

http://villageofjoy.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/north-korea-satellite-photo1.jpg

[underdog]

Dude, I feel EXACTLY the same. Ever since I read about that hotel I just can't read enough about North Korea.

Supposedly, they've started building it again. I guess ignoring a huge structure doesn't make it go away.

Oh yeah, and those night time satellite photographs showing lights all over the place in South Korea and China but a huge black hole in North Korea are great too.

http://villageofjoy.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/north-korea-satellite-photo1.jpg

Fucking badass.

[HBox]

Here you go:

http://villageofjoy.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/north-korea-satellite-photo1.jpg

Now, on the other hand, not very smart for South Korea to have that huge blob of lights right on the border.

[tele7]

Here you go:

http://villageofjoy.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/north-korea-satellite-photo1.jpg

North Korea has a Motel 6?

[patsopinion]

how hard is it to go there?

is it like cuba where all you gotta do is get on a connecting flight

or dont they even have planes?

[HBox]

how hard is it to go there?

is it like cuba where all you gotta do is get on a connecting flight

or dont they even have planes?

Visiting North Korea is a bureaucratic nightmare, and your every move will be monitored by your guides. There are those who have called for a boycott on tourism to North Korea, due to human rights abuses in the country or how tourism may help finance the government. There is no official free enterprise activity in North Korea, and all tourist facilities are state-owned so the money goes directly to the government of North Korea. Others cite the possible benefits of Westerners engaging with North Korean citizens, particularly in a positive, friendly manner (i.e., contrary to the stereotypes of Westerners presented by internal propaganda) — although your guides will generally do their best to stop you from actually meeting any ordinary citizens. Ordinary North Koreans are forbidden to interact with you without authorization from the government. Regardless of political beliefs, North Korea is generally acknowledged to be a unique place to visit. The traveller must make his or her own mind up about the rights and wrongs of visiting the country.
Citizens of South Korea are normally not permitted to visit North Korea except the special tourism zone in Kumgang and now on tours to Kaesong. Citizens of the United States of America are also generally not permitted by the North Koreans, but in recent years, exceptions have been made for special events such as the Arirang Mass Performances, usually held in August-October, and occasionally in April-May. In addition, there have been reports of difficulties regarding Israeli and Japanese nationals. Citizens of all other countries will need a visa, which will only be issued after your tour has been booked, approved by the North Korean authorities and paid for. Journalists (or those suspected of being journalists) require special permission, which is quite difficult to obtain. The North Koreans do not allow "journalists" to visit the country on tourist visas. A specialist North Korean travel agency can help you sort out the complex and ever-changing regulations. It should be noted that North Korea will rarely in practice refuse a visa to a tourist who meets the various requirements.

I wouldn't risk going there even if they allowed me in.

[patsopinion]

I wouldn't risk going there even if they allowed me in.

i just think it would be great to see a civilization about to fall into anarchy
the sociological implications of seeing something before it happened, knowing it was going to happen, knowing the players and places
or even being there when shit finnaly went down!
to be in the middle of a revolution
a real revolution, not this sissy obama bullshit, would be mind blowing

[KnoxHarrington]

i just think it would be great to see a civilization about to fall into anarchy
the sociological implications of seeing something before it happened, knowing it was going to happen, knowing the players and places
or even being there when shit finnaly went down!
to be in the middle of a revolution
a real revolution, not this sissy obama bullshit, would be mind blowing

My feeling is that North Korea's ultimate demise won't be that dramatic. Kim Jung-Il will finally kick off, his son(s) will be unable to consolidate power, so there will be a quiet military coup that either ultimately ends in reunification of Korea, or a government far more in line with China. I don't see the North Korean people rising up. At least not as things are now.

Everyone forgets what a pain in the balls North Korea is to China. They have massive problems with illegal immigration at the north border. And just as history has sort of forced the United States into this role as South Korea's protector and patron, China has been forced into this role of North Korea's protector and patron, and they'd rather get out of that, I think. At least with South Korea, the United States can have a real strategic partner that can sustain itself. North Korea is a total leech on China.

[yojimbo7248]

My feeling is that North Korea's ultimate demise won't be that dramatic. Kim Jung-Il will finally kick off, his son(s) will be unable to consolidate power, so there will be a quiet military coup that either ultimately ends in reunification of Korea, or a government far more in line with China. I don't see the North Korean people rising up. At least not as things are now.

Everyone forgets what a pain in the balls North Korea is to China. They have massive problems with illegal immigration at the north border. And just as history has sort of forced the United States into this role as South Korea's protector and patron, China has been forced into this role of North Korea's protector and patron, and they'd rather get out of that, I think. At least with South Korea, the United States can have a real strategic partner that can sustain itself. North Korea is a total leech on China.

I'm glad to see other ronfez.net people that share my fascination and near obsession with North Korea. I can't get enough info about the place. My favorite NK book is a graphic non-fiction book by a French Canadian guy, Guy Delisle, called Pyongyang: A Journey in North Korea. It's about his experience working there and perfectly shows how surreal the place is.

I have also dealt with the country in my job and I completely agree with what Knox Harrington wrote about their relationship with China. When I was working in D.C., we would get policymakers say,"Why don't we just pressure Beijing to reign in NK?" We had to brief them on how complex the relationship is and how Pyongyang is a deeply annoying burden to the PRC leadership.

[NewYorkDragons80]

I didn't hear about Yerdaddy's latest trip. When is he coming back?

Here's a question? Where would you rather live? In the DR Congo or North Korea? What do you consider a better place to live? Absolute anarchy or absolute control?

[Freakshow]

Supposedly, they've started building it again. I guess ignoring a huge structure doesn't make it go away.
.

See i've read they couldn't continue building it, even if they wanted to--the concrete they used was of such poor quality and they've left it too long.

Did anyone hear about Kim Jong Il playing golf for the first time? He shot a 48 and had 13 hole-in-ones!!!!!

[cougarjake13]

I didn't hear about Yerdaddy's latest trip. When is he coming back?

Here's a question? Where would you rather live? In the DR Congo or North Korea? What do you consider a better place to live? Absolute anarchy or absolute control?

i'd have to do a lil more research before i make an informed decision

[A.J.]

Here's the DPRK news website (http://www.kcna.co.jp/index-e.htm). Sometimes there are some real gems in there.

[patsopinion]

I didn't hear about Yerdaddy's latest trip. When is he coming back?

Here's a question? Where would you rather live? In the DR Congo or North Korea? What do you consider a better place to live? Absolute anarchy or absolute control?

my favorite rf.net theoretical ever
this may take a week to fully articulate my answer to

[Ricky24]

What happened to this thread? It just stopped. Did the government get to you guys? I am facinated by North Korea too. I need some more of these cool stories!
(also, the satelite photo is down)
all spelling errors were on purpous

[NewYorkDragons80]

my favorite rf.net theoretical ever
this may take a week to fully articulate my answer to

This could've been a cool discussion. I guess people weren't as active because it was the holidays. Anyway, considering the options, I'd go with the absolute anarchy scenario. As long as I can organize a posse, we could set up a barter system, protect ourselves, and just become a self-sufficient micro-society. I guess the question goes further than that; would you prefer absolute control with a semblance of infrastructure or chaos in the wilderness?

Maybe I'm biased b/c North Korea's missile test in 98 landed a few hundred miles from where I'm typing this.

[high fly]

How 'bout the Dear Leader having the Japanese tv newscaster kidnapped to be his "girlfriend"?




He can't be all bad, he's bringing platform shoes back!

[Melk]

My former neighbor from Australia went to North Korea. He had to pre-plan it a yearin advance. Then he had to enter the country from China. He took amazing photos and video.

[NewYorkDragons80]

He took amazing photos and video.

Maybe it'd be interesting to visit, but I think it would just be awkward and dull. First, you have at least a tail at all times, if not a chaperone. Second, how many buildings are off limits to photos? How many of those permitted are worth shooting? When I go abroad, about 60% of the experience is sharing stories, and I just can't imagine doing that in DPRK.

[boosterp]

I too love reading about NK, the Trek Earth link is fascinating.

[A.J.]

Here's the DPRK news website (http://www.kcna.co.jp/index-e.htm). Sometimes there are some real gems in there.

February 13, 2009. Kim Jong Il, Greatest Leader of Present Era

Pyongyang, February 13 (KCNA) -- The Korean people and the world progressives are lauding Kim Jong Il as the greatest leader of the present era who is demonstrating the dignity and the national power of the socialist Korea all over the world and is guiding the cause of independence against imperialism to the victory.

He proclaimed the immortal Juche idea as the guideline of our era long ago and put forth the theories on all realms of the revolution and construction and methods of leadership over masses, thus laying a solid foundation for the victory of the Korean revolution and the human cause of independence.

He formulated the Songun principle with President Kim Il Sung's idea of giving priority to arms as the guideline and established the Songun politics as the main mode of the socialist politics, thus opening up a new phase for the development of the progressive ideas of the mankind.

Under his energetic guidance the Workers' Party of Korea has been strengthened and developed into the Juche-typed revolutionary one which is firmly carrying forward the lineage of Mt. Paektu and the DPRK consolidated as a powerful socialist country with the result that a model of the times has been created in the efforts for accomplishing the people's cause of independence.

Kim Jong Il, who ushered in a new age of the Juche-oriented revolution with his great Songun revolutionary leadership, saw to it that the army building and activities have been undertaken strictly in accordance with the requirements of the Juche idea. He has thus developed the People's Army into an invincible revolutionary strong army and turned the DPRK into a country with world-class military strength.

He has developed in depth the tradition of unity established in Mt. Paektu to strengthen the revolutionary rank into an invincible one closely united around the leader on the basis of comradeship and rallied broad sections of masses around the Party to cement the internal force of the Korean revolution in every way.

The Korean people have smashed the desperate hostile moves of the U.S.-led imperialist reactionary forces against the DPRK at every step and wrought a historical miracle in the decisive battle for defending the country. This is the greatest victory won by the Songun revolutionary strategy of General Secretary Kim Jong Il.

He unfolded a far-reaching plan for building a great, prosperous and powerful nation with the iron faith and unbreakable will, set forth a unique line on economic construction in the Songun era and led the whole country to follow the revolutionary soldier spirit of the People's Army. In this way he has wisely led the people so that they have created new miracles and innovations on all fronts of the socialist construction.

Under the tested and seasoned leadership of Kim Jong Il, a politician rare to be seen, the socialist Korea with the strongest political and military forces will shine more brilliantly and Korean people's aspiration after a rich and strong country will be attained without fail.

[boosterp]

February 13, 2009. Kim Jong Il, Greatest Leader of Present Era

Pyongyang, February 13 (KCNA) -- The Korean people and the world progressives are lauding Kim Jong Il as the greatest leader of the present era who is demonstrating the dignity and the national power of the socialist Korea all over the world and is guiding the cause of independence against imperialism to the victory.

He proclaimed the immortal Juche idea as the guideline of our era long ago and put forth the theories on all realms of the revolution and construction and methods of leadership over masses, thus laying a solid foundation for the victory of the Korean revolution and the human cause of independence.

He formulated the Songun principle with President Kim Il Sung's idea of giving priority to arms as the guideline and established the Songun politics as the main mode of the socialist politics, thus opening up a new phase for the development of the progressive ideas of the mankind.

Under his energetic guidance the Workers' Party of Korea has been strengthened and developed into the Juche-typed revolutionary one which is firmly carrying forward the lineage of Mt. Paektu and the DPRK consolidated as a powerful socialist country with the result that a model of the times has been created in the efforts for accomplishing the people's cause of independence.

Kim Jong Il, who ushered in a new age of the Juche-oriented revolution with his great Songun revolutionary leadership, saw to it that the army building and activities have been undertaken strictly in accordance with the requirements of the Juche idea. He has thus developed the People's Army into an invincible revolutionary strong army and turned the DPRK into a country with world-class military strength.

And starving, without gas for their vehicles.

He has developed in depth the tradition of unity established in Mt. Paektu to strengthen the revolutionary rank into an invincible one closely united around the leader on the basis of comradeship and rallied broad sections of masses around the Party to cement the internal force of the Korean revolution in every way.

The Korean people have smashed the desperate hostile moves of the U.S.-led imperialist reactionary forces against the DPRK at every step and wrought a historical miracle in the decisive battle for defending the country. This is the greatest victory won by the Songun revolutionary strategy of General Secretary Kim Jong Il.

Nothing better than letting your people suffer, starve, and lack jobs.

He unfolded a far-reaching plan for building a great, prosperous and powerful nation with the iron faith and unbreakable will, set forth a unique line on economic construction in the Songun era and led the whole country to follow the revolutionary soldier spirit of the People's Army. In this way he has wisely led the people so that they have created new miracles and innovations on all fronts of the socialist construction.

In what way?

Under the tested and seasoned leadership of Kim Jong Il, a politician rare to be seen, the socialist Korea with the strongest political and military forces will shine more brilliantly and Korean people's aspiration after a rich and strong country will be attained without fail.

*cough*, Bullshit!



I can't tell you how many times I laughed a bit while reading this.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

http://www.theonion.com/content/files/images/Kim-Jong-Il-article.article.jpg

[foodcourtdruide]

I didn't hear about Yerdaddy's latest trip. When is he coming back?

Here's a question? Where would you rather live? In the DR Congo or North Korea? What do you consider a better place to live? Absolute anarchy or absolute control?

That is a really awesome question.

North Korea is so fucking interesting. The hotel story is just about the whackiest thing I've ever heard.

[Melk]

I can't tell you how many times I laughed a bit while reading this.
Must be a Murdoch paper...

[MacVittie]

http://www.theonion.com/content/files/images/Kim-Jong-Il-article.article.jpg

I can't look at that guy without thinking of Team America: World Police

http://scrapetv.com/News/News%20Pages/Everyone%20Else/images/kim-jong-il-in-team-america.jpg

[Ricky24]

anyone have anymore stuff like trek earth or personal stories...?

[Pestz4Evah]

Here's the DPRK news website (http://www.kcna.co.jp/index-e.htm). Sometimes there are some real gems in there.

Jesus.....Feb. 13th's has 6 different articles about floral baskets he has gotten. That so awesome.

[made cummsies]

People there are fucked up too.
I guess we (anyone who lives in a democratic society that is) take it for granted that you can question authority or the government without consequence. For the most part we've been brought up with an abundance of freedoms and information that allow us to make up our minds on any topic. If that freedom and information was suppressed to the extreme I can understand why people are so willing to follow a cult of personality.

I'd love to go there. There and Chernobyl. I have a morbid fascination with desolation.
check out http://www.infiltration.org/, you'd probably enjoy some of the pics


I guess ignoring a huge structure doesn't make it go away.
Could someone please tell PANYNJ that? :(


how hard is it to go there?
In 2005 I was fortunate enough to spend a week in Pyongyang. The trip was sponsored by Canadian Foreign Affairs & International Trade (DFAIT) which I can only assume made getting the necessary visas slightly easier. That said it still took about a month of faxing/emailing paperwork to/from consulates, trade consultants, etc. to get everything in place. Once that was completed our contact at DFAIT still told us that the visas could be revoked at any time and for any reason. The logistics of getting there wasn't that difficult, just very lengthy. Toronto to Beijing is just over 13 hours in flight + another 4 to clear customs; 2 nights in Beijing waiting for the final approval; 2 hour flight from Beijing to Pyongyang; waiting 4 hours while our handlers were assembled and all of our paperwork was scrutinized. While there we never had much free time and certainly didn't have any opportunity to be on our own. Each delegate was always accompanied by at least one individual from the DPRK (they had the title of "people's friend" but there wasn't much friendly about them) who would start shadowing us from when we left the hotel till we returned. They spoke reasonable English and were responsible to act as a guide on what we could/couldn't do and where we could/couldn't go. I have a sense that most of them were ex-military and didn't quite comprehend the mixed messages their bosses would have given them. On one hand they're supposed to be there to help facilitate relations but on the other they're to keep the white devils from making off with any state secrets. Most of us also had made arrangements to have a translator which in my case was a very nice albeit socially inept Chinese engineering student. He kept on getting into arguments with my handler and there were a couple of times I was sure we were both on the verge of getting shot. The government hosts were quite hospitable and seemed to go all out to show us North Korea's best face both economically and culturally. Despite most of the country going hungry we were always well fed and were taken to some sort of arts or entertainment exhibit every evening. Political ideology aside there's simply no getting around the fact that North Korea is at least 30 years behind the rest of the world in every respect. Their manufacturing processes are brutally inefficient to describe the quality as shit would be a compliment. Consumer technology seems to have peaked with the transistor radio which only picks up specific stations. The simplest way I can describe the whole country is its visiting Cousin Eddie (ala Clark Griswold & National Lampoon's Vacation franchise). He tries to put on a good face but there's no getting around that he's a bumbling rube who doesn't have a pot to piss in. Once our week had wrapped up we were thoroughly interviewed and inspected before being allowed to leave.

Aside from a wicked case of the shits, having left behind a favorite pair of shoes the only other side effect of going is that I get asked a few more questions by US CBP whenever I travel to the States.


How 'bout the Dear Leader
The 'dear leader' is nuttier then squirrel shit.


I can't look at that guy without thinking of Team America: World Police

http://scrapetv.com/News/News%20Pages/Everyone%20Else/images/kim-jong-il-in-team-america.jpg
I still laugh my ass off when watching the "I'm so ronely, poor rwiddle me" scene. :laugh:

[boosterp]

I am jealous cummsies that you got to go. There is no way I would ever be allowed to go, but I love to hear the recollections of others.

[NewYorkDragons80]

Aside from a wicked case of the shits, having left behind a favorite pair of shoes the only other side effect of going is that I get asked a few more questions by US CBP whenever I travel to the States.

Interesting that you brought that up. Did they stamp your passport? If so, can you scan it for us?

I'm looking to go to Vietnam (possibly in the Spring), but that's not even close to North Korea. What a weird place. More power to the people who decide to go and can pull it off, but other than being able to say you've been there, I can't see any reason why someone would want to. I'm willing to go to all sorts of crazy places and I do it for 1) meeting people from every imaginable background 2) local food/crafts/art 3) architecture 4) photos 5) outdoors/diving. Nothing I've read or seen indicates that North Korea is conducive to ANY of those things.

I was thinking about this thread today, and it's ironic that Jay would be the one to resurrect this, since one of the things that's etched in my memory as the first thing that made me smile on 9/11 was him screaming about our then-new treaty with North Korea.

[A.J.]

I'm looking to go to Vietnam (possibly in the Spring), but that's not even close to North Korea.

I was in Hanoi last summer. It's actually not a bad place. The architecture seems very reminiscent of New Orleans because of the French Influence. The food is great and everything is dirt cheap.

[made cummsies]

Interesting that you brought that up. Did they stamp your passport?
There was nothing stamped in the passport by DRPK but there is (in this order) a Chinese entry, exit, entry & exit stamp. Which usually generates the CBP Agent to as something along the lines of "Did you visit any countries that aren't reflected in your passport?". Not sure what kind of database they keep of previous comments but since I've always answered that question honestly they know I've been in North Korea.

[SP1!]

This could've been a cool discussion. I guess people weren't as active because it was the holidays. Anyway, considering the options, I'd go with the absolute anarchy scenario. As long as I can organize a posse, we could set up a barter system, protect ourselves, and just become a self-sufficient micro-society. I guess the question goes further than that; would you prefer absolute control with a semblance of infrastructure or chaos in the wilderness?

Maybe I'm biased b/c North Korea's missile test in 98 landed a few hundred miles from where I'm typing this.

Thats the biggest thing, if I had lots of guns and a small army then the Congo is the choice.

NK is going to be a huge mess once kim jong dies.

[FMdoug]

My neighbor went to north korea and told me some stories about the place.

First, no traffic. Actually, no cars on the roads and they still had police on the road "policing" traffic when she went out of the hotel.

Second, they bugged the hotel rooms. Her and a friend were discussing that they wanted tea and a few minutes later an attendant comes to the door with tea.

She also said the people there were really nice despite their obvious poverty.

[NewYorkDragons80]

Thats the biggest thing, if I had lots of guns and a small army then the Congo is the choice.

There's a documentary I've seen pieces of called "Les derniers colons" about white Belgians who remained in Congo/Zaire after colonialism. Also, I've read an interview with a Belgian who stayed behind to own a mango farm. He only has one or two rifles for him and his wife, but certainly not an arsenal. Believe it or not, he's only been ransacked twice and they came during nation-wide unrest. With that in mind, in the scenario I'm putting forward, the Congo isn't zombie-invasion bad. However, it is a nation-wide gangster state, and that fascinates/terrifies the hell out of me.

[NewYorkDragons80]

I was in Hanoi last summer. It's actually not a bad place. The architecture seems very reminiscent of New Orleans because of the French Influence. The food is great and everything is dirt cheap.

I hear nothing but good things about Vietnam, other than stories of prostitutes harassing people in Hoi An. I hear there's a shop in Hanoi that sells nothing but propaganda posters. Needless to say, between the Buddhist architecture, the syncretic Vietnamese-French Catholic architecture, the history, the food, the people, and the diving, I'm seriously pumped about this trip. So my problem isn't with people going to a communist country (not that Vietnam is necessarily communist), I just feel like going to the DPRK for the sake of going is a weak reason to be awkwardly surveilled for a week and a half. Pyongyang has some cool shit, but I'm not so sure it's worth the visit.

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I don't know if it's the uniform or the discipline of her movements, but there's something sexy about the whole arrangement of an (as far as I know) all-female traffic officer corps. Being all-female, I wouldn't be surprised if they are chosen based on hotness.

[underdog]

Lisa Ling's sister taken hostage in North Korea (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/us_world/2009/03/21/2009-03-21_lisa_lings_sister_among_two_reporters_ca.html)

Also :

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[Furtherman]

Lisa Ling's sister taken hostage in North Korea (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/us_world/2009/03/21/2009-03-21_lisa_lings_sister_among_two_reporters_ca.html)

Two women and a release?

Who else but Bill Clinton to handle this!

North Korean leader pardons 2 U.S. journalists (http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/08/04/nkorea.clinton/index.html)

The announcement came after former U.S. President Clinton met with top North Korean officials in Pyongyang to appeal for their release.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/08/04/nkorea.clinton/art.clinton.07.nk.jpg

Ok, that picture looks like a scene in Forrest Gump. Clinton was put in there!

[foodcourtdruide]

I think it was pretty selfless of Clinton to do this.

[mendyweiss]

Two women and a release?

Who else but Bill Clinton to handle this!

North Korean leader pardons 2 U.S. journalists (http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/08/04/nkorea.clinton/index.html)



http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/08/04/nkorea.clinton/art.clinton.07.nk.jpg

Ok, that picture looks like a scene in Forrest Gump. Clinton was put in there!

I bet Bill Clinton gets an oriental massage on the plane ride home !

[CurseoftheBambi]

He could be a republican senator or blue dog democrat in this country.

[HBox]

I'ts now official: Clinton > Reagan.

[sailor]

I'ts now official: Clinton > Reagan.

iran was nothing?

[HBox]

iran was nothing?

Reagan was President when he did that. Clinton? Pfft. Clinton don't need no fucking military. He just flies into enemy territory, lays down his pimp hand and gets what he demands.

[DolaMight]

Clinton Delvers?

http://d.yimg.com/a/p/rids/20090804/i/r439502794.jpg

I wonder what they traded. Those documents look like they might have been in Sandy Bergers pants. Since when do presidents carry clipboards, or is that just envoy gear, a notepad for taking minutes? something said in a weird language, seems angry, when does my banquet start.

Maybe next year the NBA will have the Pyongyang Clippers.

[asayresk]

Clinton gave the president of North Korea nude photos of Hilary. (bad joke but I had to do it)

[Dude!]

Clinton gave the president of North Korea nude photos of Hilary. (bad joke but I had to do it)

yeah
pictures of a nude pensioner shopping

[A.J.]

Reagan was President when he did that. Clinton? Pfft. Clinton don't need no fucking military. He just flies into enemy territory, lays down his pimp hand and gets what he demands.

That pimp hand was probably full of cash.

[LordJezo]

So along with the documentary posted on the last page (http://www.vbs.tv/watch/the-vice-guide-to-travel/vice-guide-to-north-korea-1-of-3), if you find that interesting I highly recommend this short illustrated trip report book of sorts

Pyongyang: A Journey in North Korea by Guy Delisle
http://www.amazon.com/Pyongyang-Journey-North-Guy-Delisle/dp/1897299214/ref=pd_sim_b_15

It's the story of the author who went to North Korea to work in a French animation studio that was outsourced to North Korea. It goes along with the movie wonderfully and fills in a lot of the gaps that the movie left out and goes into a greater detail about how foreigners exist in the country along side the locals.

It's good stuff. It's a short read but well worth it for anyone who wants to read more about the country and how bizarre it is there.

[foodcourtdruide]

Ok, that picture looks like a scene in Forrest Gump. Clinton was put in there!

This is hilarious. I am absolutely fascinated looking at the pictures of Bill Clinton and Kim Jong Il. Again, republican or democrat, Clinton deserves a lot of credit for doing this. What does he have to gain?

[yojimbo7248]

So along with the documentary posted on the last page (http://www.vbs.tv/watch/the-vice-guide-to-travel/vice-guide-to-north-korea-1-of-3), if you find that interesting I highly recommend this short illustrated trip report book of sorts

Pyongyang: A Journey in North Korea by Guy Delisle
http://www.amazon.com/Pyongyang-Journey-North-Guy-Delisle/dp/1897299214/ref=pd_sim_b_15

It's the story of the author who went to North Korea to work in a French animation studio that was outsourced to North Korea. It goes along with the movie wonderfully and fills in a lot of the gaps that the movie left out and goes into a greater detail about how foreigners exist in the country along side the locals.

It's good stuff. It's a short read but well worth it for anyone who wants to read more about the country and how bizarre it is there.

I love this book. I have read a lot of books about North Korea and this is my favorite. Can't recommend it enough. Even if you aren't particularly interested in the country, it's a fun, interesting graphic book.

[Dude!]

This is hilarious. I am absolutely fascinated looking at the pictures of Bill Clinton and Kim Jong Il. Again, republican or democrat, Clinton deserves a lot of credit for doing this. What does he have to gain?

a. feeding his ego
b. staying on center stage
c. having the Clintons upstage the boy king (obama)
d. all the Korean 'tang he wants

[sailor]

Reagan was President when he did that. Clinton? Pfft. Clinton don't need no fucking military. He just flies into enemy territory, lays down his pimp hand and gets what he demands.

he was only president for like 2 minutes. that's gotta count for something.

[Doogie]

That pimp hand was probably full of cash.

Exactly...and I agree DolaMight. It was either cash or something else given up. This is not a country that would release "spies" without some sort of bribe.

[EliSnow]

It's not unusual for former Presidents, senators, or other former politicians to do foreign diplomacy acts. Jimmy Carter, as ex president, has tried things like this, and may have even succeeded -- I don't remember.

[yojimbo7248]

It's not unusual for former Presidents, senators, or other former politicians to do foreign diplomacy acts. Jimmy Carter, as ex president, has tried things like this, and may have even succeeded -- I don't remember.

Carter went to North Korea in 1994 and defused an extremely tense situation. We were very close to war.

[EliSnow]

Carter went to North Korea in 1994 and defused an extremely tense situation. We were very close to war.

Thanks. I didn't remember that incident, but I knew that he had done things like this several times.

[yojimbo7248]

Thanks. I didn't remember that incident, but I knew that he had done things like this several times.

I was on DIA's Pentagon Korea team in 2003 and had access to classified reports on what happened in 1994. If people only knew how close we were to war...

[TheMojoPin]

It's not unusual for former Presidents, senators, or other former politicians to do foreign diplomacy acts. Jimmy Carter, as ex president, has tried things like this, and may have even succeeded -- I don't remember.

He has. So has Jesse Jackson.

[ANC]

Shit, wrong thread

[EliSnow]

According to this article (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_us_nkorea_analysis), Clinton didn't do much.

[Ogre]

Not a big fan of Clinton or Obama, but if it brings those two home so be it. Hell we give out hundreds of millions to Hamas and get bubkiss in return, at least these two get to come home to their families. Good Job Bill.

I think he presented Kim Jong with the complete season six box set of Seinfeld and that was that. Ol Kimmy don't get the humor but he laughs out loud like he does when watching in company.

http://www.hrvatski-vojnik.hr/hrvatski-vojnik/802002/80_pictures/Kim%20Jong.jpg

[high fly]

Reagan was President when he did that. Clinton? Pfft. Clinton don't need no fucking military. He just flies into enemy territory, lays down his pimp hand and gets what he demands.



Of course you are correct on International Superstar Bill Clinton.

But I have to correct you and sailor on the release of the hostages by Iran.
Yes, they were released in the first minutes of Reagan's watch, but it was President Carter who negotiated their release. The agreement was reached in Algeria, with Secretary of State Warren Christopher flying in to ink the agreement about 2 weeks before Ronald "Dutch" Reagan was sworn in...



"Dutch" Reagan's record on hostage negotiation is a sordid one.
He said we would never pay ransom to terrorists because it would just encourage more of it. He then embarked on a campaign to reward hostage-taking terrorists with shipment after shipment of anti-tank rockets, anti-aircraft missiles and top secret electronic and imagery intelligence, baring to Iran our capabiliies and limitations in those fields........... which of course brought on more of it.
He even continued to ship them rewards after they broke their side of the agreement and didn't release the hostages they had promised........




Oh, and for more history - - - - it was Superstar Bill Clinton who got sick of Iranian intelligence goons trailing, surveilling and threatening Americans. So in 1998 Clinton launched a massive world-wide operation that shut down nearly the entire Iranian foreign intelligence service....

[dino_electropolis]

Ok, so our dearly beloved rogue journalists have landed safely back in the States.


They were clearly relieved, clearly ecstatic to be home, and very grateful to everyone's efforts.


But how about a fkn apology for being idiots in the first place, causing our country to deal with a situation that would otherwise be nonexistent?

How about some humility? How about, "we feel like idiots, and we're sorry we caused our nation to have to deal with a wacky dictator?"


Of course, i'm happy they are safe. But if i were them, i would be a tad bit embarrassed.



just sayin.

[underdog]

I'm sorry that I did that. I'm embarrassed that I did that.

[dino_electropolis]

I'm sorry that I did that. I'm embarrassed that I did that.

Sounds too much like Imus....i'm not buyin it.

[high fly]

Ok, so our dearly beloved rogue journalists have landed safely back in the States.


They were clearly relieved, clearly ecstatic to be home, and very grateful to everyone's efforts.


But how about a fkn apology for being idiots in the first place, causing our country to deal with a situation that would otherwise be nonexistent?

How about some humility? How about, "we feel like idiots, and we're sorry we caused our nation to have to deal with a wacky dictator?"


Of course, i'm happy they are safe. But if i were them, i would be a tad bit embarrassed.



just sayin.



Good idea.
Get rid of all the journalists over there and rely on North Korean propaganda to know what is going on....

[Farmer Dave]

Don't a lot of states make you pay for your search and rescue if you go hiking and end up lost? Maybe a bill would be in order.

[SatCam]

if they dont apologize and I see them on the street im gonna totally act like theyre not there and not say hi.

[boosterp]

I am sorry I went without a guide, crossed territory unfamiliar to me, and got captured.

Same with the hikers being held in Iran.

Idiots, all of them.

[lleeder]

laura ling said "What else could I write I don't have the right"

[brettmojo]

Honestly... Did they really need to go over there anyway? No shit, North Korea sucks. Welcome to 1960.

[boosterp]

Honestly... Did they really need to go over there anyway? No shit, North Korea sucks. Welcome to 1960.

Plus, south Korea and to a lesser extent Japan let's us know in the public what that crazy fuck is up to.

[Suspect Chin]

Don't a lot of states make you pay for your search and rescue if you go hiking and end up lost? Maybe a bill would be in order.

http://content.barewalls.com/preview/x4/x4jm_clip.jpg

They got a Bill alright...

[STC-Dub]

They said the reporters worked for Al gore's TV Network, how about he foots the bill?

[dino_electropolis]

They said the reporters worked for Al gore's TV Network, how about he foots the bill?

Yeah, all that jet fuel, back and forth, back and forth......so much for carbon footprints.

[underdog]

They said the reporters worked for Al gore's TV Network, how about he foots the bill?

Yeah, all that jet fuel, back and forth, back and forth......so much for carbon footprints.

Well, technically it was just jet fuel to NK.

[hanso]

Bill Clinton gave up his porn collection to Kim Jong Il. For the deal to go down.

[Jujubees2]

I'm sure today they are starting to negotiate a book and movie deal.

[Lady Resin]

Maybe they're going to send Thank You cards.

[Furtherman]

Considering they were documenting a story about refugees escaping into China as well has human trafficking of girls into prostitution and slavery, the only thing they should offer is that story to be told.

To apologize for trying to bring to light the human savagery that the North Korean government gets fat and rich on would be an insult to everyone.

[sailor]

To apologize for trying to bring to light the human savagery that the North Korean government gets fat and rich on would be an insult to everyone.


nah, they'd be apologizing for illegally being in a country that had every right to subject them to their laws. It put our whole nation at a disadvantage for their hubris.

[Furtherman]

nah, they'd be apologizing for illegally being in a country that had every right to subject them to their laws. It put our whole nation at a disadvantage for their hubris.

But if you look into that border, people cross over all the time without any incident. Most of the time you just give the guards cigarettes and there is no problem. There were other people with those women and they were not arrested. They were arrested because of what they were researching, not because of any legality. They might have been sold out by their guide, which is an circumstance that has happened before to others. The area is on the fringes of what you could barely call a society. Laws don't apply there until a profit is available.

[EliSnow]

If anyone is interested in seeing some video of what it's like to visit North Korea, check here. (http://www.vbs.tv/newsroom/vice-guide-to-north-korea-4-of-14)

There appears to be 14 video segments from a visit by journalists to North Korea.