Muslim Family Kicked Off Flight

[JimBeam]

9 Muslim passengers kicked off flight after remark

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090102/ap_on_re_us/muslim_passengers_removed

I think booting them was bad enough but not allowing them to take another flight, w/ the FBI's blessing, is shameful.

[Dude!]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090102/ap_on_re_us/muslim_passengers_removed

I think booting them was bad enough but not allowing them to take another flight, w/ the FBI's blessing, is shameful.

bs
they were trouble makers looking to create a problem

[furie]

it looks like the airline over reacted.

[MC Pee Pants]

kaka

[lleeder]

I heard they were singing
"Bismillah ir-Rahman ir-Rahim, Alhumdulillahi Rabil A’lameen,
We gettin' Arab Money (hahha), (oooo) We gettin' Arab Money"

[epo]

So a group has a very benign conversation according to the article:

Irfan said when he boarded the flight Thursday, he mentioned something to his wife and sister-in-law about having to sit in the back. His sister-in-law replied that she believed the back of the airplane was the safest, but Irfan believed it was better to be by the wings.

"She said, 'Yes, I guess it makes sense not to be close to the engine in case something happens," Irfan recalled Friday. "It was a very benign conversation."

And they kick them off? Our society is absolutely insane at times.

[cougarjake13]

So a group has a very benign conversation according to the article:



And they kick them off? Our society is absolutely insane at times.

no offense to them but they know theyre muslim and saying any shit like that is gonna raise some eyebrows

[epo]

no offense to them but they know theyre muslim and saying any shit like that is gonna raise some eyebrows

Here is a legitimate question: How is that different than being a white family saying the same thing?

Add to that the conversation was about their safety not about threats.......

[cougarjake13]

Here is a legitimate question: How is that different than being a white family saying the same thing?

Add to that the conversation was about their safety not about threats.......



no white people hi jacked planes 7 years ago


sorry but the world aint perfect and people are gonna be profiling and if a white family says it prob no one bats an eye, but a muslim family, who i dont even know if theyre wearing traditional muslim garb is just gonna unfair condemn them as possible terrorists


right or wrong




you're walking down the street and you see a bunch of white males around 20-30 dressed in punk or goth style ... you prob dont flinch


same situation but they're black males looking thuggish ?? you prob cross the street


when i say you i dont literally mean you

[epo]

no white people hi jacked planes 7 years ago


sorry but the world aint perfect and people are gonna be profiling and if a white family says it prob no one bats an eye, but a muslim family, who i dont even know if theyre wearing traditional muslim garb is just gonna unfair condemn them as possible terrorists


right or wrong




you're walking down the street and you see a bunch of white males around 20-30 dressed in punk or goth style ... you prob dont flinch


same situation but they're black males looking thuggish ?? you prob cross the street


when i say you i dont literally mean you

Based upon that logic, we should keep an eye on every white guy in Oklahoma City.

[Contra]

You're damn right we should, middle America rednecks are crazy!

[mikeyboy]

I'm not as bothered by this as others are. Here's why: the conversation was reported by passengers. Did the passengers overreact and unfairly judge the comments because the group was Muslim and clearly dressed in Muslim? Very possibly. It's also possible that the passengers caught only a snippet of the conversation and it sounded like a real threat. It's kind of irrelevant. The passengers report the conversation, and it gets to the pilot who ultimately has to make a judgment call about the safety of his passengers and those on the ground below him. If he gets a report that passengers are having "questionable" conversations, he needs to make the call to investigate. Ultimately it turned out to be nothing, but the pilot had to make the call without having first hand knowledge of the conversation that took place. Without knowing exactly what he was told, I can't fight the decision of the pilot or the airline in following protocol based on the pilot's decision.

As to why they didn't allow this group on a later flight, there was some hinting that at least one of the party became very irate, so there may have been more to that decision than we are given in this article.

[Gmann]

no offense to them but they know theyre muslim and saying any shit like that is gonna raise some eyebrows


Agreed.
If it was a family of Buddhists saying stuff like that would you really be concerned ??

[FezsAssistant]

better to be safe than sorry.
there was probably some suspicious activity on 9/11, too, but people were too scared of being called racist to do anything about it.

[GregoryJoseph]

As sad as it is that this is where we are as a society, I agree that it's best to err on the side of caution.

Is it better to hurt the feelings of a family than risk the lives of an entire flight?

Of course.

Whether the concerns were warranted or not is not clear because none of us were there. Apparently the apprehension of the rest of the passengers was enough for the pilot to have to make a logical decision.

What a shame that he'll probably be judged harshly for it.

[Friday]

no offense to them but they know theyre muslim and saying any shit like that is gonna raise some eyebrows

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/8581/iconrolleyesvn4.gif

[underdog]

SonOfSmeagol is very happy today.

Agreed.
If it was a family of Buddhists saying stuff like that would you really be concerned ??

Most Americans would be, because they're retarded and would think they're muslim.

[TheMojoPin]

As sad as it is that this is where we are as a society, I agree that it's best to err on the side of caution.

Is it better to hurt the feelings of a family than risk the lives of an entire flight?

Of course.

Yes, because statistically speaking, the odds of a Muslim/Arab/Persian person highjacking or blowing up a plane is so overwhelming that we need to "play it safe."

Oh, wait. That's not the case at all.

"Err on the side of caution" implies that there's even a remotely good chance that "those people" are terrorists, which isn't even close to reality. It's like acting like the internet is evil thanks to those Dateline: To Catch a Predator specials and we need to err on the side of caution and assume there are sexual predators lurking everywhere.

It's the culture of fear in this country, and it's hardly unique to just the idea of "Arab=terrorist." Something terrible happens, and it's almost always hyped up into THE threat that can strike at any moment and probably will and that mentality is pounded into us and we freak the fuck out and do stupid shit like this. This is basically saying, "if you're Arab and on a plane, don't talk about flying or being on the plane or anything plane-related. In fact, it's probably best if you talk as little as possible."

[GregoryJoseph]

"Err on the side of caution" implies that there's even a remotely good chance that "those people" are terrorists, which isn't even close to reality.


Many passengers expressed fear and concerns. The pilot made a decision. Case closed.

It's very easy to be idealistic when we're so far removed from the situation. The pilot has a job to do, which basically boils down to "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." Rather than have a riot on his hands, he made the proper decision.

[TheMojoPin]

Many passengers expressed fear and concerns. The pilot made a decision. Case closed.

It's very easy to be idealistic when we're so far removed from the situation. The pilot has a job to do, which basically boils down to "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." Rather than have a riot on his hands, he made the proper decision.

Sure, but the overall context and reasoning behind the fears and concerns are alarmist, unrealistic and biased bullshit. Just because the pilot avoided a "riot" doesn't mean it wasn't for stupid reasons.

[furie]

Many passengers expressed fear and concerns. The pilot made a decision. Case closed.

It's very easy to be idealistic when we're so far removed from the situation. The pilot has a job to do, which basically boils down to "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." Rather than have a riot on his hands, he made the proper decision.

if we followed your logic, then we never would have retrieved spock's katra

[yojimbo7248]

Most Americans would be, because they're retarded and would think they're muslim.

That is the problem with pilots reacting to everything nervous passengers tell the stewards. A good portion of white Americans don't trust non-white people, can't differentiate between different groups of brown people, and think there are terrorists just waiting to bomb every flight in the US. We can't mistreat a non-white person just because some nervous white family thinks they heard him say something threatening on a plane.

[underdog]

That is the problem with pilots reacting to everything nervous passengers tell the stewards. A good portion of white Americans don't trust non-white people, can't differentiate between different groups of brown people, and think there are terrorists just waiting to bomb every flight in the US. We can't mistreat a non-white person just because some nervous white family thinks they heard him say something threatening on a plane.

Wait, there's different groups of brown people?

[GregoryJoseph]

That is the problem with pilots reacting to everything nervous passengers tell the stewards. A good portion of white Americans don't trust non-white people, can't differentiate between different groups of brown people, and think there are terrorists just waiting to bomb every flight in the US. We can't mistreat a non-white person just because some nervous white family thinks they heard him say something threatening on a plane.

Again, I agree with the idealism of the post, but it's not logical. If you were the pilot would you have told all the "white" people to get off the plane and fly only the muslim family?

And I'm not sure it's a "good portion" of white Americans who don't trust non-white people.

Didn't we just elect an African-American for our next President? I think we judge our fellow countrymen a bit too harshly sometimes, and that there are far less racist hayseeds than we might like to believe.

[Contra]

I see what you are saying mojo, but if a pilot prevents the second 911 for "stupid reasons" then I'm all for it.

[TheMojoPin]

I see what you are saying mojo, but if a pilot prevents the second 911 for "stupid reasons" then I'm all for it.

But the odds of that are astronomically small. Seriously. We shouldn't be treating people like this over things that simply don't happen that often at all. I'm not saying precautions shouldn't be taken after events such as 9/11, but they can go too far and often do. I just find it sad to see things like this happen.

[TheMojoPin]

Again, I agree with the idealism of the post, but it's not logical. If you were the pilot would you have told all the "white" people to get off the plane and fly only the muslim family?

And I'm not sure it's a "good portion" of white Americans who don't trust non-white people.

Didn't we just elect an African-American for our next President? I think we judge our fellow countrymen a bit too harshly sometimes, and that there are far less racist hayseeds than we might like to believe.

People don't have to be hayseeds to be racist.

And the election of Obama isn't proof or some kind of cure-all for such perceptions. I think what we see here is more along the lines of fear or mistrust of "brown foreigners." If you want to bring up Obama, look how much traction the "he's a secret Muslim" garbage got and still gets.

[GregoryJoseph]

People don't have to be hayseeds to be racist.

And the election of Obama isn't proof or some kind of cure-all for such perceptions. I think what we see here is more along the lines of fear or mistrust of "brown foreigners." If you want to bring up Obama, look how much traction the "he's a secret Muslim" garbage got and still gets.

I never said it was non-existent, but rather that it's far less prevalent than many would like to believe.

[TheMojoPin]

I never said it was non-existent, but rather that it's far less prevalent than many would like to believe.

Sure, but then you have something like this cropping up yet again. It's clearly prevalent enough for garbage like this to keep happening.

[GregoryJoseph]

Then I suppose we'll have to stamp out racism once and for all.

Then religious fanaticism.

Then terrorism.

Shouldn't be to hard...

[mikeyboy]

I'm on it.

[TheMojoPin]

Then I suppose we'll have to stamp out racism once and for all.

Then religious fanaticism.

Then terrorism.

Shouldn't be to hard...

I didn't say anything about how we can "stamp out" anything...I'm just pointing out what I perceive as the stupidty of the siuation and my frustration with it.

[GregoryJoseph]

I didn't say anything about how we can "stamp out" anything...I'm just pointing out what I perceive as the stupidty of the siuation and my frustration with it.

Fear not; mikeyboy's on it.

[Death Metal Moe]

SonOfSmeagol is very happy today.


Yes, but only because he thought the flight was Air Force One taking someone to be inaugurated.

Wacka Wacka.

[dino_electropolis]

The real tragedy here is that they actually made it on the plane in the first place.

[TheMojoPin]

The real tragedy here is that they actually made it on the plane in the first place.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/GPz-j3bfq3E&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/GPz-j3bfq3E&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Blech.

[dino_electropolis]

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/GPz-j3bfq3E&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/GPz-j3bfq3E&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Blech.

CLASSIC flick, classic scene.......

[TheMojoPin]

The inclusion of the bathtub is critical in terms of the metaphor for the joke.

[yojimbo7248]

Again, I agree with the idealism of the post, but it's not logical. If you were the pilot would you have told all the "white" people to get off the plane and fly only the muslim family?

And I'm not sure it's a "good portion" of white Americans who don't trust non-white people.

Didn't we just elect an African-American for our next President? I think we judge our fellow countrymen a bit too harshly sometimes, and that there are far less racist hayseeds than we might like to believe.

I did exaggerate that a "good portion" of white Americans don't trust non-whites. My only point was that there are a lot of nervous flyers out there and I wouldn't want the onflight air marshals putting people in handcuffs because someone heard a person say "bomb" when he really said "bong".

[mikeyboy]

I did exaggerate that a "good portion" of white Americans don't trust non-whites. My only point was that there are a lot of nervous flyers out there and I wouldn't want the onflight air marshals putting people in handcuffs because someone heard a person say "bomb" when he really said "bong".

That was going on for years prior to 9/11.

[DonInNC]

"The airline said in a news release Friday that one of the passengers became irate, made inappropriate comments and had to be escorted away from a gate podium by local law enforcement."

No shit, I would too. The great "where is the safest place to sit" debate is very common on planes. Next thing you know, they'll be sending people to Git-mo for asking someone where they're headed.

[SonOfSmeagol]

SonOfSmeagol is very happy today.


Yes, but only because he thought the flight was Air Force One taking someone to be inaugurated.

Wacka Wacka.

Hey!! WTF!! Leave me the fuck outta this!!

Er...They did get a free flight though didn't they - but was it worth it? :innocent:

[PapaBear]

That was going on for years prior to 9/11.
I know as far back as 1997 there were signs at Dulles that said it was illegal to say "bomb" in the airport. It made feel bad for people who can't read without reading out loud.

[A.J.]

The airline should have offered them alternative transportation.

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e3/Tjotjog/15L-Flying-Carpet.jpg

[~Katja~]

The airline should have offered them alternative transportation.

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e3/Tjotjog/15L-Flying-Carpet.jpg

I thought that one only works in Morocco

[sailor]

so because hijackings are rare, we should not take any precautions?

[epo]

so because hijackings are rare, we should not take any precautions?

Overstate the case much?

[The Jays]

I say good job, airlines! We should kick every Muslim family off of every flight. We cannot risk another 9/11. What we really need is some sort of Muslim ID card that they can ask for upon arrival at the gate.

[A.J.]

I say good job, airlines! We should kick every Muslim family off of every flight. We cannot risk another 9/11. What we really need is some sort of Muslim ID card that they can ask for upon arrival at the gate.

I think some form of religious identification was practiced before.

http://www.ushmm.org/lcmedia/photo/lc/image/27/27208.jpg

[sailor]

Overstate the case much?

no, that's pretty much what the argument was. there's little risk so it's wrong to take the precaution of removing one isolated family until further review.

[Dude!]

I think some form of religious identification was practiced before.

http://www.ushmm.org/lcmedia/photo/lc/image/27/27208.jpg


good point, though ironic
the muslims still want to exterminate them

[TheMojoPin]

no, that's pretty much what the argument was. there's little risk so it's wrong to take the precaution of removing one isolated family until further review.

No, that's not the argument was at all. I didn't say anything about having no safety precautions. In theory, all of that is done in the screenings and checks before someone boards a plane. If someone is demonstrating a threat past all that, obviously, action needs to be taken...but a conversation that countless flyers have all the time? That's bullshit, and clearly done simply because of how they looked/sounded.

[JimBeam]

So what do we do know ?

Make all Muslims and people we mistake for Muslims fly on the same plane ?

So if I'm on a plane and I hear a few white college kids mention supspicious behavior and mention it to the stewardess are the kids gonna be dragged off he plane ?

Additionally should white folks flying out of Northern Ireland be subjected to the same treatment ?

I mean there is a little but of terrorist history over there as well.

This was a family. Not several single males.

And if they were discussinbg the safest place on the plane would they really be thinking about blowing it up ?

You know where the safest place is on an plane that's gonna explode ?

At the gate.

I'm all for saftety and precautions but when we start letting random passangers be hall monitors and idenitfy possible terrorist targets there's a problem.

[Tenbatsuzen]

The thing is... if the plane goes, there's no safe place to be. it's very rare that you hear of airplane distress and half the plane survives a la "Fearless". Either everyone survives, or everyone dies.

[TheMojoPin]

good point, though ironic
the muslims still want to exterminate them

What a stupid statement.

There's plenty of Americans that hate the Jews and want them destroyed, too. I guess the statement "the Americans still want to exteerminate them" must hold equal weight for you, too.

[Tenbatsuzen]

No, that's not the argument was at all. I didn't say anything about having no safety precautions. In theory, all of that is done in the screenings and checks before someone boards a plane. If someone is demonstrating a threat past all that, obviously, action needs to be taken...but a conversation that countless flyers have all the time? That's bullshit, and clearly done simply because of how they looked/sounded.

I wouldn't have that conversation in earshot of other flyers. A ton of people are nervous on a plane, that's the LAST thing they need to hear about. it's the same thing as joking about having a bomb in security.

AirTran refunded their money. They are making a stink for being stupid.

[Tenbatsuzen]

And again, people are confusing being "racist" and being "prejudiced".

People were being prejudiced because they were muslim. Those fears were exacerbated because they were talking about the plane being destroyed.

If a Muslim walked onto a plane, took his seat, and did his own thing, I'm sure people would think things - as they are wont to do - but they wouldn't kick them off the plane.

If a black guy walks down the street, I don't have an issue. If a black guy walks down the street yelling racial epithets and being surly, then I have an issue and I'd feel very uncomfortable.

[TheMojoPin]

I wouldn't have that conversation in earshot of other flyers. A ton of people are nervous on a plane, that's the LAST thing they need to hear about. it's the same thing as joking about having a bomb in security.

AirTran refunded their money. They are making a stink for being stupid.

That's bullshit. I'm a nervous flyer...I have to talk out airline safety stuff and the like to calm myself pretty much every time I fly. As much as I've flown, I've heard countless people having similar discussions for a multitude of reasons. These people weren't talking about anything that who knows how may other flyers are able to talk about all the time, but because of how they look, it's suddenly not OK. This is nothing like joking about a bomb to security. This is something people do all the time that's suddenly a problem because the people doing it look funny.

[Dude!]

I guess the statement "the Americans still want to exteerminate them" must hold equal weight for you, too.

what a stupid statement

it is not the official policy of any american government entity
it is official policy of the islamic government of iran, and hamas which 'governs' gaza
big difference

[TheMojoPin]

If a Muslim walked onto a plane, took his seat, and did his own thing, I'm sure people would think things - as they are wont to do - but they wouldn't kick them off the plane.

They did "do their own thing." Unless these rules apply across the board, this is alarmist, overreactionary nonsense.

If a black guy walks down the street, I don't have an issue. If a black guy walks down the street yelling racial epithets and being surly, then I have an issue and I'd feel very uncomfortable.

This isn't even remotely close to being a comparable scenario to what we're talking about here.

Next time it'll probably be because some Arab-looking people were daring to talk quietly amongst themselves and it ultimately has nothing to do with the plane or the flight or anything...they could be plotting! Stop them!

[TheMojoPin]

what a stupid statement

it is not the official policy of any american government entity
it is official policy of the islamic government of iran, and hamas which 'governs' gaza
big difference

Ah, so because of that it's accurate to say all Muslims want to exterminate all Jews around the world. Brilliant logic there, sir.

[Tenbatsuzen]

They did "do their own thing." Unless these rules apply across the board, this is alarmist, overreactionary nonsense.



You have no idea what was said other than the Muslim family's POV. The rule has always been since 9/11... DON'T FUCK AROUND ON AN AIRPLANE OR AIRPORT OR YOU WILL GET BOOTED.

I am a loudmouth and I say inappropriate things. Wanna know where I shut up? IN THE AIRPORT AND AIRPLANE.

AirTran made the call. They also have the right not to re-board passengers. So they gave them back their money and said, "We don't want your business".

This isn't even remotely close to being a comparable scenario to what we're talking about here.

Yes, it is. Most ignorant people see Muslims as those people who blew up the towers and terrorists. Just like most ignorant people see Blacks as violent thugs.

But the point is, people were using a prejudiced - not racist - point of view in punting them. If you are Muslim, the magnifying glass is on you as is, but it's on you 1000% in an airport. You should know better.

[sailor]

No, that's not the argument was at all. I didn't say anything about having no safety precautions. In theory, all of that is done in the screenings and checks before someone boards a plane. If someone is demonstrating a threat past all that, obviously, action needs to be taken...but a conversation that countless flyers have all the time? That's bullshit, and clearly done simply because of how they looked/sounded.

i stand by my interpretation of your post #18. you say that's not whaty you meant, cool, but it reads that way, in my opinion.

also, it's not like this is happening everyday.

[Dude!]

Ah, so because of that it's accurate to say all Muslims want to exterminate all Jews around the world. Brilliant logic there, sir.

i didn't say all
but i will clarify
here is how my response to aj should have read:


an alarming number of islamic governments and entities, one on the verge of acquiring nuclear weapons, and several extremely well-armed, have it as their stated purpose not only to "eradicate israel from the face of the map", but also to exterminate the jews

it is therefore ironic, dear aj, that you chose a picture of two jews wearing the star of david in the nazi era as your way to illustrate that 'we have gone down this path before'

[TheMojoPin]

You have no idea what was said other than the Muslim family's POV. The rule has always been since 9/11... DON'T FUCK AROUND ON AN AIRPLANE OR AIRPORT OR YOU WILL GET BOOTED.

I am a loudmouth and I say inappropriate things. Wanna know where I shut up? IN THE AIRPORT AND AIRPLANE.

AirTran made the call. They also have the right not to re-board passengers. So they gave them back their money and said, "We don't want your business".

How did they "fuck around?" Having a conversation that anyone else can have with your family is "fucking around?"

Yes, it is. Most ignorant people see Muslims as those people who blew up the towers and terrorists. Just like most ignorant people see Blacks as violent thugs.

Except you brought up the specific example of a guy walking down the street yelling slurs and being "surly." These people weren't doing anything of the sort.

But the point is, people were using a prejudiced - not racist - point of view in punting them. If you are Muslim, the magnifying glass is on you as is, but it's on you 1000% in an airport. You should know better.

So, in short, even if you do nothing wrong, too bad, them's the breaks, and this won't be applied to anyone else anytime soon...unless they look Arab. How is possible to dance around this being anything other than "if you look a certain way, you're not going to be allowed to say or do certain things anyone else can on a flight?" What's next, Arab-looking passengers should "know better" than to use the forward lavatories because people will think they're rushing the cockpit?

[TheMojoPin]

i didn't say all
but i will clarify
here is how my response to aj should have read:


an alarming number of islamic governments and entities, one on the verge of acquiring nuclear weapons, and several extremely well-armed, have it as their stated purpose not only to "eradicate israel from the face of the map", but also to exterminate the jews

it is therefore ironic, dear aj, that you chose a picture of two jews wearing the star of david in the nazi era as your way to illustrate that 'we have gone down this path before'

It's also ironic that those ghettos "down tha path" are comparable to the ones the Israelis have forced the Palestinians into.

It's also ironic that your statements demonstrate a profound lack of knowledge about the demographics of Iran and how young and Westernized most of their population is, in sharp contrast to the current ruling party spouting the rhetoric that you're applying across the population.

[lleeder]

This is why we need whites only planes.

[TheMojoPin]

i stand by my interpretation of your post #18. you say that's not whaty you meant, cool, but it reads that way, in my opinion.

That was all in reference to this specific series of events, where people on a plane are kicked off for having a conversation people who don't look Arab are allowed to have, not the general idea of airport and airline security. It seems like it would really be a reach to assume that I would in any way condone the idea of having minimal or no security when it comes to the airline industry. Why would I possibly think that?

also, it's not like this is happening everyday.

Just because something doesn't happen "everyday" doesn't make it any less appalling and unjust when it does.

[A.J.]

it is therefore ironic, dear aj, that you chose a picture of two jews wearing the star of david in the nazi era as your way to illustrate that 'we have gone down this path before'

Actually, my choosing that picture was a response to The Jays' post about Muslims needing "some sort of Muslim ID card". That would be as insulting as asking them to wear a crescent on their clothes. Also, that choice of picture wasn't about the Jews' eventual near-extermination. It was about their segregation and degradation in German society. Requiring a "Muslim ID card" would be no less different: especially in our country which prides itself on being a melting pot.

[Dude!]

It's also ironic that your statements demonstrate a profound lack of knowledge about the demographics of Iran and how young and Westernized most of their population is, in sharp contrast to the current ruling party spouting the rhetoric that you're applying across the population.

you are such an idiot
i specifically said "an alarming number of islamic governments and entities"
the governments control the policies now, and not the 'young westernized population'
you should learn to make a point using logic and not by twisting words

[sailor]

That was all in reference to this specific series of events, where people on a plane are kicked off for having a conversation people who don't look Arab are allowed to have, not the general idea of airport and airline security. It seems like it would really be a reach to assume that I would in any way condone the idea of having minimal or no security when it comes to the airline industry. Why would I possibly think that?

Yes, because statistically speaking, the odds of a Muslim/Arab/Persian person highjacking or blowing up a plane is so overwhelming that we need to "play it safe."

Oh, wait. That's not the case at all.
yeah, there's no way to get that interpretation from you saying there's no need to "play it safe" because terrorist attacks are rare.


and aj, i really think the jays was joking about the id card thing.

[A.J.]

and aj, i really think the jays was joking about the id card thing.

I hope so. Damn, we need those sarcasm tags.

[SonOfSmeagol]

Can't we all just be a little more tolerant of traditional cultural attire?


http://www.arabsexblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/hot-muslim-slut.jpg

[A.J.]

Can't we all just be a little more tolerant of traditional cultural attire?


http://www.arabsexblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/hot-muslim-slut.jpg

Shouldn't she be at Jabba's side?

[TheMojoPin]

you are such an idiot
i specifically said "an alarming number of islamic governments and entities"
the governments control the policies now, and not the 'young westernized population'
you should learn to make a point using logic and not by twisting words

Like how you twist the "destruction of Israel" (which nobody is trying to justify as anything besides hatefilled rhetoric) to "the extermination of the Jews?"

What the breakdown of Iran's internal politics and demographics does is put a damper on the garbage spouted by their president. He doesn't control the armed forces. He doesn't control the population. The current government is determined to hold onto power as long as they can, and they won't be able to do that by flying in the face of the younger generation and plunging the country into war. These guys aren't stupid ad they're not genuine extremists...they're greedy and they want to stay in charge. Pushing Iran into any kind of prolonged major accomplishment would squash all that. They walk the line to try and talk big and appeal to the hardliners and the older generation and try to hold on while they can. There's a huge difference between hollow rhetoric, while ugly and inexcusable, than what happened in Europe in the 30's and 40's. Compound that with AJ's statement referring to people who likely don't buy into that garbage and there's really nothing ironic about it at all.

[JimBeam]

So they gave them back their money and said, "We don't want your business"

Yeah but why don't the want their business ?

Beacuse of their skin color or religion ?

As far as I know companies can't just randomly pick who they want as customers based on either of those traits.

So in the end, after the investigation, we find out that it really was just a family discussing the safest place on a plane and that's enough to get you banned on an airlines flights ?

" OK well we know you didn't do anything wrong but you know you look like people who might do something wrong so we're not gonna take a chance. "

I'm against random lawsuits but I hope these people do sue and w/ the FBI as one of their witnesses they win big and this airline goes tits up.

Then they never have to worry about flying suspicious characters ever again.

[TheMojoPin]

yeah, there's no way to get that interpretation from you saying there's no need to "play it safe" because terrorist attacks are rare.

"Play it safe" was in quotes in regards to the post I was replying to referring to this incident as being ultimately necessary to "play it safe." I used that term because it was used in the post I was replying to, hence the quotes. The odds of these people or anyone else being a terrorist are so slim that I take issue with the idea that it was necessary to remove them from the plane and also deny them travel for having a conversation countless other people have had. "Play it safe" implies there's a good chance they were a threat.

[JimBeam]

The only way a " Remove A Family From The Flight For Safety's Sake " Policy works is if it's done once, randomly on every flight.

[A.J.]

The only way a " Remove A Family From The Flight For Safety's Sake " Policy works is if it's done once, randomly on every flight.

There are some families I'd like to see removed from flights for tranquility's sake.

[TheMojoPin]

Probably shouldn't allow them to have carry-on luggage, since, y'know.

Actually, luggage for them in general is a bad idea.

And like I said, using the forward lavatories? Sorry sir, you don't look right for that.

In fact, it's best if you don't get up at all during the flight. People are getting nervous when you do.

A hushed, private conversation? UNACCEPTABLE. You could be discussion your terrorist plans. Please refrain from conversation.

I hope this airline implodes.

[SonOfSmeagol]

Probably shouldn't allow them to have carry-on luggage, since, y'know.

Actually, luggage for them in general is a bad idea.

And like I said, using the forward lavatories? Sorry sir, you don't look right for that.

In fact, it's best if you don't get up at all during the flight. People are getting nervous when you do.

A hushed, private conversation? UNACCEPTABLE. You could be discussion your terrorist plans. Please refrain from conversation.

I hope this airline implodes.


I agree! Discrimination against Herve Villechaize impersonators is an outrage!!!

http://www.jamesbond007.net/seconds/Tric.jpg

[mudflap170]

I'm not as bothered by this as others are. Here's why: the conversation was reported by passengers. Did the passengers overreact and unfairly judge the comments because the group was Muslim and clearly dressed in Muslim? Very possibly. It's also possible that the passengers caught only a snippet of the conversation and it sounded like a real threat. It's kind of irrelevant. The passengers report the conversation, and it gets to the pilot who ultimately has to make a judgment call about the safety of his passengers and those on the ground below him. If he gets a report that passengers are having "questionable" conversations, he needs to make the call to investigate. Ultimately it turned out to be nothing, but the pilot had to make the call without having first hand knowledge of the conversation that took place. Without knowing exactly what he was told, I can't fight the decision of the pilot or the airline in following protocol based on the pilot's decision.

As to why they didn't allow this group on a later flight, there was some hinting that at least one of the party became very irate, so there may have been more to that decision than we are given in this article.

As usual. Mikeyboy is making perfect sense. But, no matter what really happened, how funny would it have been to see Jim Norton pop his head out of the cabin and say: "Hit the bricks, shit-dicks."

[Phild]

I'm not as bothered by this as others are. Here's why: the conversation was reported by passengers. Did the passengers overreact and unfairly judge the comments because the group was Muslim and clearly dressed in Muslim? Very possibly. It's also possible that the passengers caught only a snippet of the conversation and it sounded like a real threat. It's kind of irrelevant. The passengers report the conversation, and it gets to the pilot who ultimately has to make a judgment call about the safety of his passengers and those on the ground below him. If he gets a report that passengers are having "questionable" conversations, he needs to make the call to investigate. Ultimately it turned out to be nothing, but the pilot had to make the call without having first hand knowledge of the conversation that took place. Without knowing exactly what he was told, I can't fight the decision of the pilot or the airline in following protocol based on the pilot's decision.

As to why they didn't allow this group on a later flight, there was some hinting that at least one of the party became very irate, so there may have been more to that decision than we are given in this article.

Mikeyboy is right-on here. Did anyone think how this would have been handled in Egypt, Israel, Guyana, etc…? They would have been dragged off the plain and strip searched separated and interrogated, forget about not being given another flight. As bad as we want to make this kind of thing out to be, here in America we typically handle this kind of situation in a more reasonable/respectful way, and let’s not forget we live in a post 911 world, it is amazing it doesn’t happen more often.

[TheMojoPin]

Did anyone think how this would have been handled in Egypt, Israel, Guyana, etc…?

I never get why this sort of thing is brought up. It's basically trying to emphasize how good we have it here...but since that is the case, it means we should only have higher standards and expectations as to how things are done here.

[Tenbatsuzen]

I never get why this sort of thing is brought up. It's basically trying to emphasize how good we have it here...but since that is the case, it means we should only have higher standards and expectations as to how things are done here.

Can I live in your dream world? Seriously, PASSENGERS FELT THREATENED. The family got their money and an apology.

[SatCam]

If I were in that family, I would've said something about planting a bomb on the plane so all those bastards had to wait a day to get another flight.

Fuck em all.

[ope]

Can I live in your dream world? Seriously, PASSENGERS FELT THREATENED. The family got their money and an apology.

What if the Muslim family felt threatened by the white passengers? Should they kick the white passengers off the plane then?

[Phild]

Can I live in your dream world? Seriously, PASSENGERS FELT THREATENED. The family got their money and an apology.


Well said...

[SatCam]

Can I live in your dream world? Seriously, PASSENGERS FELT THREATENED. The family got their money and an apology.

The muslim family should apologize for being so threatening

[Friday]

The muslim family should apologize for being so threatening

and so brown...

[cougarjake13]

The muslim family should apologize for being so threatening

and so brown...



and so muslim

[CHUCKWAGONCOOK]

Muslim Family on a plane do da, do da.

[razorboy]

I find young children, the elderly, the excessively sweaty and the morbidly obese threatening. I can't wait for my next flight.

[Tenbatsuzen]

What if the Muslim family felt threatened by the white passengers? Should they kick the white passengers off the plane then?

Honestly, I think if anyone got on a plane discussing where to safely sit if an explosion took place, I'd feel uncomfortable. White, black, or middle eastern.

[CofyCrakCocaine]

Fuck feelings so far as safety's concerned, assumed or otherwise. Calling all Muslims "Arabs" whenever terrorism is brought up is complete retardedness stemming from a staggering ignorance of Muslim groups in the world. But acting like there's been zero precedence for uneasiness around Muslims passengers aboard airplanes is equally ignorant in my eyes. So while it's understandable that this incident is borne out of "White America's hatred of education regarding the Middle East", it's equally clear that fear is validated by numerous violent incidents whose perpetrators seem to be pretty Muslim-heavy over the past few decades. Most planes never crash yet almost everyone on a flight gets a little nervous that the thing they're on's gonna go down. Same with terrorism. The fact they were talking about explosions on planes in a public place also warrants some fucking investigation. Tough shit if that inconveniences your hyper-sensitive moralities.

All the arguments I've read about how fucking horrible we are for this incident reeks of the same snotty tone ex-cheerleaders have used in the car when they were upset that I didn't cut some guy off in traffic and cost them an extra 3 seconds of waiting to take a left at a light. If I drove by that girl's standards, we would probably be alright, but y'know, there's that slight chance the guy I cut off isn't paying attention and doesn't slam on his brakes. Then I'm the asshole for causing the accident, regardless of how my passenger was trying to influence my driving. So I fucking let the guy pass, and make my turn, in spite of her protests. Oh well. It's called responsibility. And considering the fact that the airline as Matty pointed out paid the family and apologized afterwards, I'd say responsibility was assumed more efficiently than normal.

It's real easy to whine and scream about rights being violated when nothing happens. Real-fucking-easy. You're all a bunch of backseat drivers, I sez.

[SonOfSmeagol]

Little know fact: AirTran airlines is 51% owned by this man:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Leader_of_Iran

[TheMojoPin]

Can I live in your dream world? Seriously, PASSENGERS FELT THREATENED. The family got their money and an apology.

"Dream world?" Thinking that saying "at least were not as bad as..." is a cop-out is living in a "dream world?"

[Dude!]

Little know fact: AirTran airlines is 51% owned by this man:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Leader_of_Iran

wow, no kidding

kudos to him for kicking his own people off the plane

but now let's boycott that 51% mofu muslim airline!

[TheMojoPin]

Fuck feelings so far as safety's concerned, assumed or otherwise. Calling all Muslims "Arabs" whenever terrorism is brought up is complete retardedness stemming from a staggering ignorance of Muslim groups in the world. But acting like there's been zero precedence for uneasiness around Muslims passengers aboard airplanes is equally ignorant in my eyes. So while it's understandable that this incident is borne out of "White America's hatred of education regarding the Middle East", it's equally clear that fear is validated by numerous violent incidents whose perpetrators seem to be pretty Muslim-heavy over the past few decades. Most planes never crash yet almost everyone on a flight gets a little nervous that the thing they're on's gonna go down. Same with terrorism. The fact they were talking about explosions on planes in a public place also warrants some fucking investigation. Tough shit if that inconveniences your hyper-sensitive moralities.

Why is it hyper-sensitive to expect that people get what they paid for and don't get thrown off of a plan and denied further travel because of how they looked and for having a conversation that's been had countless times on planes and in arports?

I don't see why they HAD to be thrown off and then on top of that refused further travel. If they check them, check the bags, computer check, etc., let them back on or at the very least get them more tickets. It's not like they can pull weapons or bombs out of thin air. Why the extra "fuck you" of kicking them off AND completely refusing them service after the freakin' FBI cleared them for travel?

[TheMojoPin]

Little know fact: AirTran airlines is 51% owned by this man:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Leader_of_Iran

Not that that isn't true, but I didn't say anything in the link about him owning part of or shares in AirTran, nor can I find anything elsewhere about that.

[Phild]

"Dream world?" Thinking that saying "at least were not as bad as..." is a cop-out is living in a "dream world?"


Did you use the phrase Cop-Out? RIGHT-ON MAN!
Hey I hear your pager going off – It’s probably 1982 leaving you a message

Keep on Trucking and Fight the Power!

[Dude!]

Did you use the phrase Cop-Out? RIGHT-ON MAN!
Hey I hear your pager going off – It’s probably 1982 leaving you a message

Keep on Trucking and Fight the Power!


more like 1968 brother

he's all about off the pig

[TheMojoPin]

Did you use the phrase Cop-Out? RIGHT-ON MAN!
Hey I hear your pager going off – It’s probably 1982 leaving you a message

Keep on Trucking and Fight the Power!

That's a pretty tremendous failure happening right up there.

Pretending like "cop-out" is some kind of dated phrase is a bit...odd.

[ope]

Not that that isn't true, but I didn't say anything in the link about him owning part of or shares in AirTran, nor can I find anything elsewhere about that.

Isn't AirTran owned by a investment group called AirTran Holdings Inc.? It was the mess that arose from the ValuJet mess in the 90's.

[CofyCrakCocaine]

Why is it hyper-sensitive to expect that people get what they paid for and don't get thrown off of a plan and denied further travel because of how they looked and for having a conversation that's been had countless times on planes and in arports?

I don't see why they HAD to be thrown off and then on top of that refused further travel. If they check them, check the bags, computer check, etc., let them back on or at the very least get them more tickets. It's not like they can pull weapons or bombs out of thin air. Why the extra "fuck you" of kicking them off AND completely refusing them service after the freakin' FBI cleared them for travel?

I don't think the hypersensitivity I was talking about had to do with the customer service business transaction angle of this story- rather I was referring to hyper-sensitivity in the sense that perceptions of racism and bigotry are vastly exaggerated from group to group to the point where logic and rationality is replaced with fury and indignation. I reference the article "Clash of Ignorance" by Edward Said, which if memory serves me, was a rebuttal by Said of Samuel Huntington's "Clash of Civilizations" in the context of recent world events regarding perceptions of Muslims as a result of 9-11. He makes passionate beautiful arguments against the wrong targets at an inappropriate time so as to isolate himself from a majority of readers - his article was written while the Towers were still smouldering- and vehemently argued that Westerners were simply having a "cultural memory" of Muslim conquests in the 9th or 10th century that reached Spain or something which was why white people were calling Muslims terrorists today... Interesting spin, the guy was a professor at Columbia, but there's one tiny problem... 9-11 HAD JUST HAPPENED. People are going to feel what they feel. He was an ardent supporter of Palestine- dare anyone tell him to not be upset and distrustful of Israelis every time a missile landed in Gaza?

And whatever happened to historical context? 9-11 is compared to Pearl Harbor as America's greatest moments of shame, so going by that logic, where's the indignation for the Japanese who were unjustly interred from 1941-1945? Like it or not, Muslims have had it easier than other "suspect groups" would have had it any other century. So from my perspective, Said's POV is terribly biased and I think he's jumping at shadows more than he is catching any burglars with that article. Said's article to me, reflects that hyper-sensitivity- wherein anything that happens to someone potentially due to a group bias is now exaggerated into a level of persecution that's just as deplorable as segregation or internment camps or blacklisting on suspicions of Communism. It's that perspective that I see tinging the arguments against AirTram here and for all the well-meaning they have, I feel they are missing the point of what happened.

Now does this justify AirTram treating their customers like shit? From the business perspective, of course not. The customer is always right. They're throwing away their own money and all that. If that's what you're worried about, then by all means... I agree.

Of course, from a "me" social perspective, I can see why they did it. I also know I don't know anything about what went down (how Socratic of me pffft). Perhaps it takes time to do a proper background check and they got booted since they weren't about to hold up an entire airplane for the sake of clearing the names of one family. Maybe they went too far with the additional fuck-you as you put it.

[Friday]

the best part about this thread is that not one person who has posted in it (well, maybe one) has ever been followed around a retail store because of the color of their skin.

it's funny how easy it is to be more understanding when you have never been isolated as a minority.

don't get me wrong... i get it. my dad and i used to play 'guess which guy is the terrorist' when he would bring me to the airport as a kid/teen..... clearly that game went down the drain after losing many friends on 9/11.

but put yourself in their shoes for a moment, if you can.

and, to be perfectly frank, i seriously doubt that any of the passengers would have shown this level of concern if a couple of white frat boys had had the same conversation.

just my $.02

[CofyCrakCocaine]

the best part about this thread is that not one person who has posted in it (well, maybe one) has ever been followed around a retail store because of the color of their skin.

it's funny how easy it is to be more understanding when you have never been isolated as a minority.

don't get me wrong... i get it. my dad and i used to play 'guess which guy is the terrorist' when he would bring me to the airport as a kid/teen..... clearly that game went down the drain after losing many friends on 9/11.

but put yourself in their shoes for a moment, if you can.

and, to be perfectly frank, i seriously doubt that any of the passengers would have shown this level of concern if a couple of white frat boys had had the same conversation.

just my $.02

I recommend any white people to go to the poorer section of Barbados and live with a host family for a few months and you'll get the impression sorta of what it's like to be a minority. Beyond that, I think that trying to have a white guy imagine what it's like to be in a minority's shoes is quite difficult to achieve and isn't really a point. Nor is being followed around in a store that comparable to being suspected of attempting mass murder and getting thrown into an interrogation cell.

And the reason white frat boys aren't cause for concern is because statistically, terrorist attacks are not perpetrated by white frat boys. Simple as dirt, really.

[Friday]

And the reason white frat boys aren't cause for concern is because statistically, terrorist attacks are not perpetrated by white frat boys. Simple as dirt, really.

i used the most extreme example.

but the most simple (as dirt) fact remains, that if a white couple had had the conversation, none of this would have happened. period.

[Dude!]

i used the most extreme example.

but the most simple (as dirt) fact remains, that if a white couple had had the conversation, none of this would have happened. period.

a white couple or black couple or any normal human would never have had the conversation these days

i fly every 2 weeks on business and i have never ever heard anyone speak aloud in an airplane about safety or a bomb or anything like that

it is absolutely understood by everyone who flies that you just don't do that

they were looking for trouble

[CofyCrakCocaine]

i used the most extreme example.

but the most simple (as dirt) fact remains, that if a white couple had had the conversation, none of this would have happened. period.

Yes, because they haven't blown up/hijacked any planes whereas some Muslims have. That fact also remains.

[CofyCrakCocaine]

a white couple or black couple or any normal human would never have had the conversation these days

i fly every 2 weeks on business and i have never ever heard anyone speak aloud in an airplane about safety or a bomb or anything like that

it is absolutely understood by everyone who flies that you just don't do that

they were looking for trouble

No, I'd venture so far as to say they most likely weren't looking for trouble. But this shit happened for a reason more substantial than "the Wasichus Who Own The Media/Airplanes Are Bigots".

[Friday]

Yes, because they haven't blown up/hijacked any planes whereas some Muslims have. That fact also remains.

oh no?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSA_Flight_1771

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2001/09/11/hijack010911.html


in this situation, the extreme response is just that. extreme.

every second i exist i realize how hard it is for some folks to put themselves into the life of another person and truly feel what they feel.

i think the conversation they had was perfectly normal... but i guess i am just one person with different experiences than most of the board.
perhaps i will experiment with this on my next flight. it might be worth it to see how people respond.

[sailor]

were any of the passengers or employees mentioned to be white, let alone all of them? i easily could have missed it, but i don't remember it in the article.

[CofyCrakCocaine]

oh no?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSA_Flight_1771

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2001/09/11/hijack010911.html


in this situation, the extreme response is just that. extreme.

every second i exist i realize how hard it is for some folks to put themselves into the life of another person and truly feel what they feel.

i think the conversation they had was perfectly normal... but i guess i am just one person with different experiences than most of the board.
perhaps i will experiment with this on my next flight. it might be worth it to see how people respond.

Perceptions suck, yes. I have a pal who is a bearded Hindu Christian who is also a Marine who's fought for this country in Iraq and lost plenty of friends who is subjected to long wary stares from lots of white people who know nothing about him or where he comes from. I don't blame them because they never talked to him- you'd be doing a double take like I did after seeing him eat steak like a champ at Hooters too.

My point is that perhaps instead of seeing this as a racial thing, you could try seeing it as a political/social thing that is alot bigger than race? Couldn't you imagine yourself in a white introvert's personal situation instead of just as a person who isn't even remotely Muslim? Fezzie'd have freaked the fuck out too. Though I guess he's a special case :happy:

Tell you what. I'll go to airport security and make bomb jokes and see what happens to me. I recall a George Carlin bit about that. Then we'll call it even, k?

P.S. I'm sorry if I'm too white for this conversation :wink:

[TheMojoPin]

a white couple or black couple or any normal human would never have had the conversation these days

i fly every 2 weeks on business and i have never ever heard anyone speak aloud in an airplane about safety or a bomb or anything like that

It was apparently a discussion about airline safety, as in, "what's supposedly the safest part of the airplane in case something goes wrong." Maybe some of the people weren't regular flyers. People who are new flyers or nervous about flying often ask such things. I know I certainly have over the years, just to give me a little bit of peace of mind when I fly since I have enough of a phobia about it as is. To say nobody brings up such things when a ton of people are nervous over or flat out scared of flying is pretty unrealistic.

Also, you bring up discussing a bomb...I've yet to see any indication that that was the case. They weren't talking about bombs or terrorism...they were talking about what was the safest part of the plane. I'm not sure what good that would do a terrorist blowing up a plane in midflight.

[TheMojoPin]

Perceptions suck, yes. I have a pal who is a bearded Hindu Christian who is also a Marine who's fought for this country in Iraq and lost plenty of friends who is subjected to long wary stares from lots of white people who know nothing about him or where he comes from. I don't blame them because they never talked to him- you'd be doing a double take like I did after seeing him eat steak like a champ at Hooters too.

My point is that perhaps instead of seeing this as a racial thing, you could try seeing it as a political/social thing that is alot bigger than race? Couldn't you imagine yourself in a white introvert's personal situation instead of just as a person who isn't even remotely Muslim? Fezzie'd have freaked the fuck out too. Though I guess he's a special case :happy:

Tell you what. I'll go to airport security and make bomb jokes and see what happens to me. I recall a George Carlin bit about that. Then we'll call it even, k?

P.S. I'm sorry if I'm too white for this conversation :wink:

I think it's larger social conditioning that race plays a big part of. I agree that it's not just "a race thing," but it's not something that can so readily be discounted given the description of what got them kicked off.

[TheMojoPin]

were any of the passengers or employees mentioned to be white, let alone all of them? i easily could have missed it, but i don't remember it in the article.

Why would they have to be white?

[sailor]

Why would they have to be white?

because white people being afraid of non-whites has been brought up like a dozen times or so in this thread. just wondering where folks got it from in this case.

[Tenbatsuzen]

"Dream world?" Thinking that saying "at least were not as bad as..." is a cop-out is living in a "dream world?"

AirTran refunded the family's money. The family is not on a no-fly list. AirTran apologized to them. They said get another flight, because your behavior isn't appropriate for our airline.

It's their call.

And yes, their behavior wasn't appropriate.

In your dream world, your idealism clouds your reality sometimes. You yourself used weasel words that you've heard people discussing plane safety all the time.

I call bullshit. I've flown quite a bit and NEVER heard people talking about bombs or crashing. They wonder what the whirring and mechanisms are, and get assurances that it's perfectly normal, but never seek out a part of the plane that's "safe".

In fact, can you pick your own seat on AirTran? If you can't, they were already assigned and shouldn't be having that conversation anyway.

[ope]

Perceptions suck, yes. I have a pal who is a bearded Hindu Christian who is also a Marine who's fought for this country in Iraq and lost plenty of friends who is subjected to long wary stares from lots of white people who know nothing about him or where he comes from. I don't blame them because they never talked to him- you'd be doing a double take like I did after seeing him eat steak like a champ at Hooters too.

My point is that perhaps instead of seeing this as a racial thing, you could try seeing it as a political/social thing that is alot bigger than race? Couldn't you imagine yourself in a white introvert's personal situation instead of just as a person who isn't even remotely Muslim? Fezzie'd have freaked the fuck out too. Though I guess he's a special case :happy:

Tell you what. I'll go to airport security and make bomb jokes and see what happens to me. I recall a George Carlin bit about that. Then we'll call it even, k?

P.S. I'm sorry if I'm too white for this conversation :wink:

Funny you say that...don't you think it's possible that someone with fears like Fez could freak out and worry about the "safest locations" on an airplane too?

[DonInNC]

Maybe some of the people weren't regular flyers.

The week of New Years, on a discount airline like Airtran...Probably very few of the passengers were regular fliers. If the conversation had taken place in the middle of any other week of the year, probably no one would have thought twice about it.

[Tenbatsuzen]

Funny you say that...don't you think it's possible that someone with fears like Fez could freak out and worry about the "safest locations" on an airplane too?

If you have fears like that, you talk to a stewardess. They have training for nervous and/or sick flyers. If you're chatting with someone not in uniform about the plane exploding, that's a problem.

[furie]

man, what were the chances that there were going to be FAMs on that flight too.
nothing was going their way that day.

[DonInNC]

In fact, can you pick your own seat on AirTran? If you can't, they were already assigned and shouldn't be having that conversation anyway.

Airtran has assigned seating, so it wasn't like they were trying to figure out where to sit.

And as I posted earlier, I've heard this exact conversation several times on flights, and it always annoys the fuck out of me.

[Tenbatsuzen]

man, what were the chances that there were going to be FAMs on that flight too.
nothing was going their way that day.

you're probably the most qualified to chime on this.

For theoretic's sake, if Geddy Lee was talking about the plane exploding, should he be kicked off a plane?

[ope]

If you have fears like that, you talk to a stewardess. They have training for nervous and/or sick flyers. If you're chatting with someone not in uniform about the plane exploding, that's a problem.

They were talking about safety, not explosions.

We are supposed to be the greatest nation in the world, and yet this is how we are treating natural born citizens on their way to a religious event.

[furie]

you're probably the most qualified to chime on this.

For theoretic's sake, if Geddy Lee was talking about the plane exploding, should he be kicked off a plane?

well, speaking from experience, I once issued a civil penaltiy of $1000 (mitigated down to $500) to a guy on a delta flight for saying "Man, I just droped a bomb in the bathroom".
Now he was talking to his friend and he was refering to the massive shit he had just left behind. But that upset the woman behind him, she complained, the pilot t=kicked him off the flight, and we got involved.

So, should Geddy or any one else get kicked off for making an either innocent or stupid statement? I say no. But the reality of nervous passengers, even more nervous airlines, and an over-reactive federal government is that there will be consequences.

[DonInNC]

well, speaking from experience, I once issued a civil penaltiy of $1000 (mitigated down to $500) to a guy on a delta flight for saying "Man, I just droped a bomb in the bathroom".
Now he was talking to his friend and he was refering to the massive shit he had just left behind. But that upset the woman behind him, she complained, the pilot t=kicked him off the flight, and we got involved.



anybody who takes a shit in an airplane bathroom should be fined double that.

[Tenbatsuzen]

So, should Geddy or any one else get kicked off for making an either innocent or stupid statement? I say no. But the reality of nervous passengers, even more nervous airlines, and an over-reactive federal government is that there will be consequences.

So what you're saying is, you will choose free will?

[furie]

"The world is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion." - Thomas Paine .

love the quote, btw

[furie]

So what you're saying is, you will choose free will?

as long as i keep my mouth shut, I can fly by night

[TheMojoPin]

AirTran refunded the family's money. The family is not on a no-fly list. AirTran apologized to them. They said get another flight, because your behavior isn't appropriate for our airline.

It's their call.

And yes, their behavior wasn't appropriate.

In your dream world, your idealism clouds your reality sometimes. You yourself used weasel words that you've heard people discussing plane safety all the time.

Yet your ambiguous statements ad declarations aren't "weasel words." Nice double standard.

It's not a "dream world." I've flown enough wih new or nervous flyers that I've heard conversations along those lines plenty of times. I've done it myself a number of times. Before I started using sleep aids to help calm me on a flight I typically had to talk my way into it with somebody I was flying with.

I call bullshit. I've flown quite a bit and NEVER heard people talking about bombs or crashing. They wonder what the whirring and mechanisms are, and get assurances that it's perfectly normal, but never seek out a part of the plane that's "safe".

Again, bringing up bombs as if that was what was being discussed by the people on the plane. Talk about spin. And who cares if they were wondering what was supposedly the safest spot? I ask again, what in the holy hell could that possibly have to do with someone wanting to take over a plan or blow it up? What could the knowledge or discussion of the assumed "safest spot" on the plan possibly have to do with the kind of nefarious activites that people were assuming these folks could be up to? Let's focus on that...that's the reality. Not discussions about bombs or weapons or attacks or anything violent committed by someone. You have people talking about something which couldn't possibly be relative to someone taking over or blowing up a plane.

People keep coming around to saying they "shouldn't" be saying this or that...what's the list of what they shouldn't say? Does it only apply to them and people like them? What is not OK for them but somebody else could do or say ad still stay on the plane?

They did and said nothing that would indicate they were terrorists. Talking about safety on a plane is indicative of possible terrorism? How?

I've brought this up in jest, but now I'll ask seriously...since highjackers often storm the cockpit to seize control of the plane, should Arab-looking passengers "know better" than to use the forward lavatory? We had the shoe bomber, so should passengers who look somewhat "swarthy" "know better" than to take off their shoes? I'm sure plenty of people will work themselves up over someone speaking an Arabic laguage on the plane...should they "know better" than to that, too? What is the criteria as to what people of Arab apearance should "know better" than to do on an airplane that's OK for everyone else?

This isn't a "dream world"...I want to know who can and can't do what and why.

I understand this isn't a perfect world and shit happens, but it doesn't mean we can't notice when something does screw up and address it. Why do we just have to shrug our shoulders and just tolerate it?

[TheMojoPin]

anybody who takes a shit in an airplane bathroom should be fined double that.

Truth.

[CofyCrakCocaine]

Funny you say that...don't you think it's possible that someone with fears like Fez could freak out and worry about the "safest locations" on an airplane too?

Yes, that's why I said he's a special case and made a funny smiley head thing to illustrate a ha-ha. Icepack goes back to my brow.

[Tenbatsuzen]

as long as i keep my mouth shut, I can fly by night

Well, if the plane crashes, it'd hit the trees. Coroners would probably have to roll the bones.

[CofyCrakCocaine]

Well, if the plane crashes, it'd hit the trees. Coroners would probably have to roll the bones.

If I were the coroner in that field, I'd start asking my coroner friends if we were the last ones left alive- if we were the only human beings to survive.

[furie]

Well, if the plane crashes, it'd hit the trees. Coroners would probably have to roll the bones.

they can track the plane to the wreckage by following the vapor trails.

[TheMojoPin]

On a side note, my fear of flying is so bad I actually hope that a plane crashes within a day or so of me flying since it then makes the odds of it also happening to my flight even more astronomically slim. I had to catch a flight within hours of TWA 800's crash, and it was one of the most stress-free I've ever taken. When I can, I always try and take the train between Chicago and DC. I even tried to talk my parents into letting me take aboat over to Europe when I went to see them this fall. I really, really hate this phobia.

[Tenbatsuzen]

they can track the plane to the wreckage by following the vapor trails.

I'm sure UA 232 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_Flight_232) was one little victory.

[sailor]

that article uses the family kicked off the plane as the only source of quotes for what was actually said? poor reporting job.

[CofyCrakCocaine]

I'd feel alot safer if they'd take that family off to Red Sector A.

[Tenbatsuzen]

I'd feel alot safer if they'd take that family off to Red Sector A.

To be honest, if this gives us a distant early warning to future terrorist activity, I already feel safer.

[CofyCrakCocaine]

On a side note, my fear of flying is so bad I actually hope that a plane crashes within a day or so of me flying since it then makes the odds of it also happening to my flight even more astronomically slim. I had to catch a flight within hours of TWA 800's crash, and it was one of the most stress-free I've ever taken. When I can, I always try and take the train between Chicago and DC. I even tried to talk my parents into letting me take aboat over to Europe when I went to see them this fall. I really, really hate this phobia.

Do you think that if you were on a plane that starts to freefall that time stand still?

[sailor]

the pilot was overheard saying to the marshalls, "hold your fire"

[TheMojoPin]

Goddamn Geddy Lee.

[The Jays]

I hope so. Damn, we need those sarcasm tags.

I'm actually in favor of a sarcasm ID card.

[A.J.]

Did anyone think how this would have been handled in Egypt, Israel, Guyana, etc…? They would have been dragged off the plain and strip searched separated and interrogated, forget about not being given another flight. As bad as we want to make this kind of thing out to be, here in America we typically handle this kind of situation in a more reasonable/respectful way, and let’s not forget we live in a post 911 world, it is amazing it doesn’t happen more often.

I'd rather fly a foreign airline so as to enjoy the privilege of carrying a lighter and toiletries in my carry-on bag.

I recommend any white people to go to the poorer section of Barbados and live with a host family for a few months and you'll get the impression sorta of what it's like to be a minority.

Or you can live in Washington, DC like I did.

For theoretic's sake, if Geddy Lee was talking about the plane exploding, should he be kicked off a plane?

I'd be more reluctant to take off....to the Great White North.

I'm actually in favor of a sarcasm ID card.

It would be beneficial at times, yes.

[JimBeam]

And yes, their behavior wasn't appropriate.

So if anybody, ever, mentions anything on a plane about saftey they should be kicked off of the flight ?

And I'd like to see how any of you that think it's no big deal would feel if you were flying home for something like a holiday or say maybe the birth of a child, and were kicked off a flight because some random passanger deemed you " scary ".

I'm sure you'd spin it somehow and say it's not the same but I bet you'd be pissing and moaning the whole time.

Again I'm not saying precautions, and lots of them, shouldn't be taken but to constantly refer back to 9/11 is kinda silly.

How many domestic flights were there lets's say between 1990 and 9/9/01 that weren't hijacked and or blown up due to terrorist activity ?

How many have there been since 9/11 ?

The only simple solution is segregated flying.

[Sinestro]

The only simple solution is segregated flying.


Yeah! Bring back the Jim Crowe laws.

[Syd]

that article uses the family kicked off the plane as the only source of quotes for what was actually said? poor reporting job.

entitled white suburbanites aren't exactly going to go on record saying "IM SCARED OF THE TERRORISTSPEOPLE JUST TRYING TO TAKE A FLIGHT!!!"

Why do you think NFL stadiums have text message based security reporting? People are scared shitless of everything, especially confrontation/responsibility.

[sailor]

entitled white suburbanites aren't exactly going to go on record saying "IM SCARED OF THE TERRORISTSPEOPLE JUST TRYING TO TAKE A FLIGHT!!!"

Why do you think NFL stadiums have text message based security reporting? People are scared shitless of everything, especially confrontation/responsibility.

again, until it says they were white, please stop defaming white people unjustly. and now we know where they all live?

[rick9669]

you're probably the most qualified to chime on this.

For theoretic's sake, if Geddy Lee was talking about the plane exploding, should he be kicked off a plane?

geddy lee should be kicked out of north america....:furious:

[TheMojoPin]

White people are never unjustly defamed.

Heeeeeee-haaaaaw!

Kicking innocent people off of a plane due to generalizations = playing it safe.

Generalizing about the people who complained = unjust defamation.

[furie]

as long as the family was screened thoroughly, then they should have been allowed to fly. and when i say thoroughly, i mean beneath, between and behind

[sailor]

White people are never unjustly defamed.

Heeeeeee-haaaaaw!

Kicking innocent people off of a plane due to generalizations = playing it safe.

Generalizing about the people who complained = unjust defamation.

you have to realize that was mostly tongue-in-cheek, but they are really unrelated. and not generalizing, making up facts out of thin air. nowhere does it say any of the complainers are white people but it's ok to assume they all were and based upon that make further assumptions about their thought processes and biases? if anyone assumed they were any group other than white, you know you'd be ripping them a new one.

[TheMojoPin]

you have to realize that was mostly tongue-in-cheek, but they are really unrelated. and not generalizing, making up facts out of thin air. nowhere does it say any of the complainers are white people but it's ok to assume they all were and based upon that make further assumptions about their thought processes and biases? if anyone assumed they were any group other than white, you know you'd be ripping them a new one.

I'm just assuming the passengers who complained were non-Arabs/Asians. That's a pretty safe bet. I'll go the extra mile and assume most or all were white since white people are most commonly the biggest assholes on the planet.

[JimBeam]

I heard a stat in " Traitor " that said there are 1 billion Muslims in the world but that only 20% are Arab.

Not sure if that's exact but seems to make sense.

[sailor]

I'm just assuming the passengers who complained were non-Arabs/Asians. That's a pretty safe bet. I'll go the extra mile and assume most or all were white since white people are most commonly the biggest assholes on the planet.

i never said it was you, btw. i didn't think you'd said white folk. and seriously, if someone said black people are the biggest assholes on the planet (or any other group) people would rip them apart for their racism.

[TheMojoPin]

i never said it was you, btw. i didn't think you'd said white folk. and seriously, if someone said black people are the biggest assholes on the planet (or any other group) people would rip them apart for their racism.

Damn right. As it should be.

When you call the shots, people tend to not like you. It's like how we tend to hate our bosses. The double standard you seem to be dancing around doesn't exist. It's insulting the top dog because they are the top dog. "White people" in this country, by and large, are lucky to be in the position that an idiot like me can say something like "white people are the biggest assholes on the planet" and it doesn't mean shit beyond just being a flip comment. There's no larger context of being the underdogs or worse.

[JimBeam]

240,000 dollars awarded to man forced to cover Arab T-shirt

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090106/ts_alt_afp/ustransportairsecuritymuslimsrights_090106002219

If this guy got $240K for having to cover his shirt I'm sure this family's gonna get some cash as well.

Although I think what happened to this guy might be even more ridiculous.

[A.J.]

240,000 dollars awarded to man forced to cover Arab T-shirt

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090106/ts_alt_afp/ustransportairsecuritymuslimsrights_090106002219

If this guy got $240K for having to cover his shirt I'm sure this family's gonna get some cash as well.

Although I think what happened to this guy might be even more ridiculous.

I'm SOOO wearing that "Team Infidel" shirt to the Middle East. Cha-CHING!