The Kinder-Whore Quandry

[epo]

With the start of the new year I've been thinking about thinking about relationships. Not just my own follies, but those of some of my best friends. I've come to a conclusion that a good majority of us are making a big mistake as we are falling into what I'm calling the "kinder-whore" trap.

For some reason we boys seem to meet two types of women:

1. Younger chicks. These women have no attachments and are great, except we find their immaturity to be maddening. (Hence the "kinder" as in kindergarten.)
2. Normal chicks with some form of baggage. These women are great as well, except we don't find ourselves to be fans of their divorce, kids, experiences, etc. (Hence the whore, as in awesome.)

Neither situation is really fair to the chick, as we guys are just as or more guilty of all of it.

My point of "That's Life" discussion would be how do modern men escape the "kinder-whore" trap and become a generation of grown-ups? Or do they?

[JerseyRich]

3 words

They're all nuts.

[HBox]

Three simple words......... three different words than the above

[Bossanova]

My friend Greg Vacation and I just spoke on this, well kind of. They are all carzy and men just want simple things. Hence becoming gay may be the actuall answer.

[JerseyRich]

My friend Greg Vacation and I just spoke on this, well kind of. They are all carzy and men just want simple things. Hence becoming gay may be the actuall answer.

Becoming?

[Bossanova]

Becoming?

ha! my bad, becoming gay WAS the only answer

[TooLowBrow]

Becoming?

as in gvac will be coming in bossanova

[epo]

as in gvac will be coming in bossanova

Reason #591 that Gvac qualifies in the whore category.

[Dougie Brootal]

i agree with you epo. 100 percent. but i keep aiming for the younger chicks cuz around here in southern md they all lose it as the get older. as in i cant date a chick older than 25. so i keep talking to 18 year olds. not cuz the 25 year olds arent hot, theyre justnot as tight as the 18 year olds.

[RoseBlood]

...i keep talking to 18 year olds. not cuz the 25 year olds arent hot, theyre justnot as tight as the 18 year olds.
What do you expect when you've gotten use to man-ass?

But seriously, since this is in "That's Life", you sound very insecure by admitting this (assuming you're not joking). That's probably the reason you're chasing the 18 yr olds, the 25 yr olds can smell your insecurities a mile away, not attractive. Good luck Dougie.

[lleeder]

3 words

They're all nuts.

I disagree, that is closer to 4 words.

[MC Pee Pants]

I used to think that all the stereotypes and cliches about women were sexist and that i was different and didnt think that way.....turns out they're all true.

[Dougie Brootal]

What do you expect when you've gotten use to man-ass?

But seriously, since this is in "That's Life", you sound very insecure by admitting this (assuming you're not joking). That's probably the reason you're chasing the 18 yr olds, the 25 yr olds can smell your insecurities a mile away, not attractive. Good luck Dougie.

its like you can read my mind. youre completely right.

i have this complex where i have to have the best chick out of my whole group. i hadnt really noticed until recently tho. i saw that i put up with alot of shit with this last girl that i said to myself would be unforgivable because i thought she was so incredibly hot. and because, despite what drjoek may believe, our sex life really was like a porno.

im always concerned that my friends will say behind my back that my chick isnt very attractive or whatever so i shut alot of people down when i first meet them.

im a terrible person.

[JerseyRich]

I disagree, that is closer to 4 words.

I knew I could count chocula on you.

[RoseBlood]

its like you can read my mind. youre completely right.

i have this complex where i have to have the best chick out of my whole group. i hadnt really noticed until recently tho. i saw that i put up with alot of shit with this last girl that i said to myself would be unforgivable because i thought she was so incredibly hot. and because, despite what drjoek may believe, our sex life really was like a porno.

im always concerned that my friends will say behind my back that my chick isnt very attractive or whatever so i shut alot of people down when i first meet them.

im a terrible person.
You're not a terrible person at all. You're being totally honest with yourself.
So you're looking for arm candy and a trophy girlfriend, but you're not even an old rich man yet. :unsure:

[Dougie Brootal]

You're not a terrible person at all. You're being totally honest with yourself.
So you're looking for arm candy and a trophy girlfriend, but you're not even an old rich man yet. :unsure:

but is it really such a bad thing?

[RoseBlood]

but is it really such a bad thing?
you're asking the wrong person.

[~Katja~]

but is it really such a bad thing?

you are forgetting that the chick you may find totally hot may not be seen as such by your friends because beauty cannot be generalized. And what good does it to have a "total hot" chick when you and everybody else truly hates her? YOu should look for a chick you have great chemistry with.

[high fly]

With the start of the new year I've been thinking about thinking about relationships. Not just my own follies, but those of some of my best friends. I've come to a conclusion that a good majority of us are making a big mistake as we are falling into what I'm calling the "kinder-whore" trap.

For some reason we boys seem to meet two types of women:

1. Younger chicks. These women have no attachments and are great, except we find their immaturity to be maddening. (Hence the "kinder" as in kindergarten.)
2. Normal chicks with some form of baggage. These women are great as well, except we don't find ourselves to be fans of their divorce, kids, experiences, etc. (Hence the whore, as in awesome.)

Neither situation is really fair to the chick, as we guys are just as or more guilty of all of it.

My point of "That's Life" discussion would be how do modern men escape the "kinder-whore" trap and become a generation of grown-ups? Or do they?



To answer the last question, I can only speak from personal experience.
For me, one of the advantages of getting older is I have gotten out of just trying to be with hot-looking women or young ones, or those with big tits, are slender or other superficialities, but have finally gotten to where I am able to be with the ones who are best for me.
Some of this lies in understanding that there are some women who just aren't going to be into me, and it is a waste of time and effort to pursue them. On the other hand, there are plenty of others who do dig a guy like me.
Some of it comes from being able to see that I have my own imperfections, and so it is unreasonable to require the women I date be free of the same sort of "defects."
I try to see and treat them all the same.

Having a different attitude shakes out by ending up with women who are smart, interesting, great in bed and who also often have the other physical charactristics society defines as being "attractive."

Additionally, another advantage of being older is being able to see when an affair has run its course and how to get out of it gracefully without long-running arguments that ruin the memory of the good times.

[Dougie Brootal]

you are forgetting that the chick you may find totally hot may not be seen as such by your friends because beauty cannot be generalized. And what good does it to have a "total hot" chick when you and everybody else truly hates her? YOu should look for a chick you have great chemistry with.

youre totally hot and we have great chemistry... just sayin:wub:

[Gvac]

Great post, epo. The fact is that once you reach your late 30's or early 40's and find yourself single, your options are exactly what you said; girls much younger than yourself or women who are divorced with children.

I've wound up dating the first category exclusively for the past few years. Every one of them insisted they didn't mind the age difference and that I was being overly concerned about it, but it always turned out to be a problem in one way or another. Let's be honest; if you're a grown man in your 40's and are thinking like a 25 year old girl you're not too well adjusted.

On the flip side, I've met a lot of women my age who are divorced with children, and while that doesn't bother me or intimidate me in any way, the honest truth is that they don't look like women. They look like moms.

I know that sounds harsh, but it's true. I think a woman who has a few children and is 40 years old can still be very attractive, but I haven't found her yet. I'll never understand why women think that once they've had kids they have to get the "'mommy" hair cut and look frumpy, especially if they're single.

[~Katja~]

I have a bunch of single mommy friends who are between 25 and 40 and they look well kept, in great shape and not like a typical mom at all.

Maybe you are just running into the same type or don't recognize some that are to actually be moms?


youre totally hot and we have great chemistry... just sayin:wub:

and I have lot's of baggage, mainly in the form of a 3 year old

[RoseBlood]

He's hanging out in that damn laundromat too much Kat.

[~Katja~]

He's hanging out in that damn laundromat too much Kat.

no wonder, well adjusted and good looking moms have their own washer and dryer....

not only that, they usually can take pretty good care of themselves without the support of alimony and child support... believe it or not, they exist.
They often are very independent, strong minded people and a lot of men cannot deal with that kind of personality.

[epo]

Great post, epo. The fact is that once you reach your late 30's or early 40's and find yourself single, your options are exactly what you said; girls much younger than yourself or women who are divorced with children.

Maybe we just need to get over ourselves (even though we're awesome) as men and find a good woman.

[Gvac]

no wonder, well adjusted and good looking moms have their own washer and dryer....

not only that, they usually can take pretty good care of themselves without the support of alimony and child support... believe it or not, they exist.
They often are very independent, strong minded people and a lot of men cannot deal with that kind of personality.

To be perfectly honest, those are precisely the traits men my age are looking for.

It's why relationships with much younger women fail. They do not possess them, as much as they like to believe they do.

I don't want "arm candy." I don't want a mother hen. I don't want a child. I want a partner. An equal. Someone I find stimulating both physically and intellectually. And a woman who understands the whole male/female dynamic. One who doesn't want to dominate or be dominated.

I'm sure they exist. They're not very plentiful, though.

[scottinnj]

From the title, I was thinking "Kinder" was referring to "being nice"

For a moment, I thought you were broke and some hooker offered you a "free one"

[high fly]

no wonder, well adjusted and good looking moms have their own washer and dryer....

not only that, they usually can take pretty good care of themselves without the support of alimony and child support... believe it or not, they exist.
They often are very independent, strong minded people and a lot of men cannot deal with that kind of personality.

That is true, and there are many of them.
It just depends on whether the guy is looking for a woman he is really compatible with on a deeper level, or whether he is superficial about it.
Me, I like smart, interesting, strong, independent women.
I don't like being around dunces, male or female.

I figure the guys who are looking for the young ditzes make it easier for men like me to meet women with more going on and who have more to offer.
I am no stud, but I have no problem getting dates....

[epo]

From the title, I was thinking "Kinder" was referring to "being nice"

For a moment, I thought you were broke and some hooker offered you a "free one"

That would never happen. I'll let you interpret that however you want.

[epo]

Great post, epo. The fact is that once you reach your late 30's or early 40's and find yourself single, your options are exactly what you said; girls much younger than yourself or women who are divorced with children.

I've wound up dating the first category exclusively for the past few years. Every one of them insisted they didn't mind the age difference and that I was being overly concerned about it, but it always turned out to be a problem in one way or another. Let's be honest; if you're a grown man in your 40's and are thinking like a 25 year old girl you're not too well adjusted.

On the flip side, I've met a lot of women my age who are divorced with children, and while that doesn't bother me or intimidate me in any way, the honest truth is that they don't look like women. They look like moms.

I know that sounds harsh, but it's true. I think a woman who has a few children and is 40 years old can still be very attractive, but I haven't found her yet. I'll never understand why women think that once they've had kids they have to get the "'mommy" hair cut and look frumpy, especially if they're single.

So here is a question. You are faced with the following scenario:

You've got two possible chicks and have to pick one and only one to pursue. The first is a totally cool 40-year old who is completely hot and compatible. Her only hitch is that she had an awful divorce and now has 2 kids.

The other is a 28-year old...not too young, but just young enough. The young one though being hot has the wonderful characteristic of thinking you are great...but is somewhat of a dipshit.

Who wins Gvac's heart?

[Gvac]

So here is a question. You are faced with the following scenario:

You've got two possible chicks and have to pick one and only one to pursue. The first is a totally cool 40-year old who is completely hot and compatible. Her only hitch is that she had an awful divorce and now has 2 kids.

The other is a 28-year old...not too young, but just young enough. The young one though being hot has the wonderful characteristic of thinking you are great...but is somewhat of a dipshit.

Who wins Gvac's heart?

Not even close. I'd take the 40 year old in a heartbeat.

Like I said, I need someone who can stimulate me on all levels, including intellectually. Her life experiences alone would put her light years ahead of the 28 year old in that sense, especially since you said she was a bit of a dipshit.

And I have no problem with kids. I love 'em.

[RoseBlood]

Do you have to keep the younger ones dumb for the sake of this threads quandry?

[epo]

Do you have to keep the younger ones dumb for the sake of this threads quandry?

Great question and no. Lets say the 28-year old was brilliant and hilarious. Now what do you do?

[bleury]

Truly it depends on if this is a relationship for the long-term or simply sexual. Sometimes each don't coincide.

[Gvac]

Great question and no. Lets say the 28-year old was brilliant and hilarious. Now what do you do?

Still the same answer for me. As I stated previously, I've done the younger woman thing. It just doesn't work. My past few relationships have been with women 8, 10, 12, and even 14 years younger than me. Yes, they're beautiful. Yes, they're fun because of their energy. Yes, they're incredibly sexy. And some were very intelligent and mature.

For their age.

I can't put it any simpler.

It might work for some guys, but not for me.

[scottinnj]

Do you have to keep the younger ones dumb for the sake of this threads quandry?

Great question and no. Lets say the 28-year old was brilliant and hilarious. Now what do you do?

It's not that they're dumb. It's more that you and the young lady have nothing in common (usually) and the attraction is more physical then intellectual, and relationships don't last long under those circumstances.

[epo]

It's not that they're dumb. It's more that you and the young lady have nothing in common (usually) and the attraction is more physical then intellectual, and relationships don't last long under those circumstances.

Agree and disagree for me. It really depends upon the "age" gap for me. I've had some great times with women who were both 7-8 years older and younger. Its all about perspective for me.

Although I will fully admit that I always err on the side of younger. I don't know if that is good or bad.

[RoseBlood]

It's not that they're dumb. It's more that you and the young lady have nothing in common (usually) and the attraction is more physical then intellectual, and relationships don't last long under those circumstances.

Here's another example, would you rule out having a serious relationship with someone who lived far away, because many people say long distance relationships don't work?

They have just as much a chance to fail or succeed as a may/december romance. Personally, I find I have more in common with a guy say 15 yrs older than me as opposed to someone my age who grew up in the south.

[scottinnj]

Here's another example, would you rule out having a serious relationship with someone who lived far away, because many people say long distance relationships don't work?

They have just as much a chance to fail or succeed as a may/december romance. Personally, I find I have more in common with a guy say 15 yrs older than me as opposed to someone my age who grew up in the south.

I wouldn't recommend it to freinds thinking about it, but if they want to try and make a long distance relationship work, they have my support.

[~Katja~]

Here's another example, would you rule out having a serious relationship with someone who lived far away, because many people say long distance relationships don't work?

They have just as much a chance to fail or succeed as a may/december romance. Personally, I find I have more in common with a guy say 15 yrs older than me as opposed to someone my age who grew up in the south.

spider will be happy to hear that :)

I did the long distance relationship and got married with the guy after living apart for almost 3 years.
The truth is that it depends on the relationship and how it is handled.
You can be apart and still close, have daily conversations and really know the other on a much different level, cause many people won't talk nearly as much when they are close and see each other a lot. It's easier these days then it used to be, from phone, texts to e-mail and IM, you can still build a decent relationship over a distance.

[epo]

Here's another example, would you rule out having a serious relationship with someone who lived far away, because many people say long distance relationships don't work?

They have just as much a chance to fail or succeed as a may/december romance. Personally, I find I have more in common with a guy say 15 yrs older than me as opposed to someone my age who grew up in the south.

Many people frown upon it, but I hate the chance not taken. Relationships have a multitude of reasons for going wrong....distance isn't everything if the two people dig each other.

[BlackSpider]

Here's another example, would you rule out having a serious relationship with someone who lived far away, because many people say long distance relationships don't work?

They have just as much a chance to fail or succeed as a may/december romance. Personally, I find I have more in common with a guy say 15 yrs older than me as opposed to someone my age who grew up in the south.

spider will be happy to hear that :)
I did the long distance relationship and got married with the guy after living apart for almost 3 years.
The truth is that it depends on the relationship and how it is handled.
You can be apart and still close, have daily conversations and really know the other on a much different level, cause many people won't talk nearly as much when they are close and see each other a lot. It's easier these days then it used to be, from phone, texts to e-mail and IM, you can still build a decent relationship over a distance.



I'm happy to hear that...

[PerryWinkle]

spider will be happy to hear that :)

I did the long distance relationship and got married with the guy after living apart for almost 3 years.
The truth is that it depends on the relationship and how it is handled.
You can be apart and still close, have daily conversations and really know the other on a much different level, cause many people won't talk nearly as much when they are close and see each other a lot. It's easier these days then it used to be, from phone, texts to e-mail and IM, you can still build a decent relationship over a distance.

she said 15 years, not 25!


and how did your long distance relationship work out?

[BlackSpider]

she said 15 years, not 25!


and how did you long distance relationship work out?

Quick math lesson...


25 + 15 = 40...

[~Katja~]

she said 15 years, not 25!


and how did you long distance relationship work out?

we got divorced after 3 years.
In my case I was with him for a year while in the US and almost 3 years apart, during that time I only visited him about every 6 months and we talked maybe once a week.
I really only got to know him entirely when we moved together and were married suring which time he decided drugs were more important, hence the divorce.

[PerryWinkle]

Quick math lesson...


25 + 15 = 40...

50 - 10 = 40

all you need now is you "lose" those 10 years and you'll be set





I kid, everyone knows that spider isn't 50 :innocent:

[BlackSpider]

50 - 10 = 40

all you need now is you "lose" those 10 years and you'll be set





I kid, everyone knows that spider isn't 50 :innocent:




http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r221/spidescorp/star-wars-smiley-023.gif

[bleury]

Many people frown upon it, but I hate the chance not taken. Relationships have a multitude of reasons for going wrong....distance isn't everything if the two people dig each other.

Agreed, but it isn't easy no matter how much you like each other. If you have a foundation of time before the distance, it's easier. Yet if it starts with the distance, outside of a move in the early stage of the relationship by one party, it usually doesn't work.

[RoseBlood]

Still the same answer for me. As I stated previously, I've done the younger woman thing. It just doesn't work. My past few relationships have been with women 8, 10, 12, and even 14 years younger than me. Yes, they're beautiful. Yes, they're fun because of their energy. Yes, they're incredibly sexy. And some were very intelligent and mature.

For their age.

I can't put it any simpler.

It might work for some guys, but not for me.

It's not that they're dumb. It's more that you and the young lady have nothing in common (usually) and the attraction is more physical then intellectual, and relationships don't last long under those circumstances.
I was going to say that it's not fair for you to rule out an entire demographic of women, but realized you're probably speaking from experience, and I can't argue with experience.

The more I think about it, I realize we've all put limitations on who we'll date/form relationships with, age is no different.

Five, actually less than two years ago, I would've told you I could never ever see myself with a man over 30, now I'm not so sure.

[Gvac]

I was going to say that it's not fair for you to rule out an entire demographic of women, but realized you're probably speaking from experience, and I can't argue with experience.

The more I think about it, I realize we've all put limitations on who we'll date/form relationships with, age is no different.

Five, actually less than two years ago, I would've told you I could never ever see myself with a man over 30, now I'm not so sure.

I think dating someone within 7 years of your age is fine once you reach your mid to late twenties, but anything more than that is stretching it. Of course there are always exceptions, but don't expect a 35 year old man to think you and your 25 year old friends are anywhere near as fun and interesting as you do. I'm not saying that to be nasty in any way, it's just true.

I'm just speaking from my own personal experience and perspective. When I've dated younger women and met their friends, it's fun at first, but it doesn't take long to tire of it. I've found myself sitting there while they're all having a blast and thinking "I did this shit 10 years ago." It's just that you're at a completely different place in your life, no matter how mature you think you are.

I know it's impossible to understand from your point of view, Rose. I was the same way, and I assume most people are. We're positive we're much more mature than people give us credit for, and it's probably true. It still doesn't mean you can possibly fathom how much you will change within the next decade. It's something you can't know until you've lived it.

I hope we're all still here in 10 years, but that's not very likely. Just try to remember a crazy dude named Gvac and some of the stuff he said when you're 35 looking back on 25.

I'll bet you anything you'll nod your head and say "yeah, now I know what he meant."

[Furtherman]

Five, actually less than two years ago, I would've told you I could never ever see myself with a man over 30, now I'm not so sure.

We're a lot of fun. Right guys?

[TooCute]

So my boyfriend is 16 years older than me, and lives 5 hours away. We've been together 3 years, but I guess we're doomed!

[Dougie Brootal]

So my boyfriend is 16 years older than me, and lives 5 hours away. We've been together 3 years, but I guess we're doomed!

that depends on any number of factors. not just age and location. but im gonna guess yeah just because im a miserable cunt and i want everyone to feel as awful as i do.

[epo]

that depends on any number of factors. not just age and location. but im gonna guess yeah just because im a miserable cunt and i want everyone to feel as awful as i do.

Thanks Debbie Downer.

[Gvac]

I think dating someone within 7 years of your age is fine once you reach your mid to late twenties, but anything more than that is stretching it. Of course there are always exceptions

So my boyfriend is 16 years older than me, and lives 5 hours away. We've been together 3 years, but I guess we're doomed!

Aya!

Good to hear from you, and I'm glad your relationship is going strong.

You always were an exception to the rule.

[disneyspy]

EPO-go for the one that feels right,"baggage"just means experience,not a bad thing

[epo]

EPO-go for the one that feels right,"baggage"just means experience,not a bad thing

Disney...you may have me wrong as this thread has nothing to do with my life currently....rather stems from a few discussions/observations I've had as of late.

Although I agree that people should do whatever the hell works for them.

[disneyspy]

my bad,well then chicks that have you have to show stuff to,suck

[high fly]

I was going to say that it's not fair for you to rule out an entire demographic of women, but realized you're probably speaking from experience, and I can't argue with experience.


It is lazy thinking.
I hope you'll reconsider what you said about dating men from the south.
There are some pretty good ones there.

I think it foolish to rule out an entire demographic in most categories (though I can't do morbidly obese) because it just limits one's options.




The more I think about it, I realize we've all put limitations on who we'll date/form relationships with, age is no different.

Five, actually less than two years ago, I would've told you I could never ever see myself with a man over 30, now I'm not so sure.


As for me, I also don't date women under 30. I'm too old so there is too much of a cultural divide; and I also prefer women with more experience. By then they tend to have fewer hangups and are more dynamic in bed. They also have more solid life experience to talk about.


One thing we learn in life is there are advantages and disadvantages at each stage of life and the thing to do is to recognize them and to work within the general boundaries of the age we are, and to neither try to be too much older or younger than we are.
It is patently ridiculous for a 22 year-old to date a 45 year-old, just as it is patently ridiculous to see a 50 year-old guy with a ponytail and using the slang of the teenagers of the time...


It's all about who the person is and getting to where one really appreciates that can be difficult.
I have dated women whom many would say are quite unattractive.
I remembr one I went out with, the poor girl was cursed, I tell you, and it must have been tough to even go out of the house. I thought I was doing her a favor by asking her out. After all, she was amusing and I figured if it got too bad I could just stay in dimly-lit places or something. My ego had it that I was being big about it to be so generous as to show such sympathy and I thought I was quite a guy to sacrifice to help the poor gal out.
Well, after I got to really know her and got involved, I realized what a wonderful person she really is, and it was her who was being generous and not me - I was in fact handicapped with a stupid overblown ego and in many ways she was just a better person than me and I try to not forget the lesson I learned....

[RoseBlood]

I think dating someone within 7 years of your age is fine once you reach your mid to late twenties, but anything more than that is stretching it. Of course there are always exceptions, but don't expect a 35 year old man to think you and your 25 year old friends are anywhere near as fun and interesting as you do. I'm not saying that to be nasty in any way, it's just true.

I'm just speaking from my own personal experience and perspective. When I've dated younger women and met their friends, it's fun at first, but it doesn't take long to tire of it. I've found myself sitting there while they're all having a blast and thinking "I did this shit 10 years ago." It's just that you're at a completely different place in your life, no matter how mature you think you are.

I know it's impossible to understand from your point of view, Rose. I was the same way, and I assume most people are. We're positive we're much more mature than people give us credit for, and it's probably true. It still doesn't mean you can possibly fathom how much you will change within the next decade. It's something you can't know until you've lived it.

I hope we're all still here in 10 years, but that's not very likely. Just try to remember a crazy dude named Gvac and some of the stuff he said when you're 35 looking back on 25.

I'll bet you anything you'll nod your head and say "yeah, now I know what he meant."

Sorry if I was coming off like I was taking offense to anything you've said. I really do appreciate and respect your views G. You always make excellent points and leave me with something to consider.
I guess I can the best way for me to understand your point is to look at a 15 year old or to think back to when I was 15 and see the difference.

[Gvac]

I guess I can the best way for me to understand your point is to look at a 15 year old or to think back to when I was 15 and see the difference.

It's kind of different, though. At 15 you know you're a kid. When you're 25 you're an adult, just at a different stage than a 35 year old. Who in turn is at a different point in their life than a 45 year old.

It's not impossible to relate; just difficult.

[RoseBlood]

It's kind of different, though. At 15 you know you're a kid. When you're 25 you're an adult, just at a different stage than a 35 year old. Who in turn is at a different point in their life than a 45 year old.

It's not impossible to relate; just difficult.
True.. but at 15 you still think you know more than the 25, 35, and 45 yr. olds. But that's a separate discussion.

[Furtherman]

We're a lot of fun. Right guys?

AHEM.


RIGHT GUYS!?

[disneyspy]

too much fun