President Lincoln's 200th Birthday

[El Mudo]

Happy Birthday Mr. President!! :clap::clap:

http://debgeyer.files.wordpress.com/2007/04/abraham-lincoln-antietam-battlefield.jpg


I've only been to Ford's Theatre once or twice, and not since I was a kid, and I would very much like to go again.

I actually find The Petersen House (http://www.frommers.com/destinations/washingtondc/A21266.html) to be more interesting

[A.J.]

I actually find The Petersen House (http://www.frommers.com/destinations/washingtondc/A21266.html) to be more interesting

I actually find Sloan Peterson to be more interesting.

http://www.thefakelife.com/blog/uploaded_images/Pinup5MiaSaraBIG.jpg

The problem with Ford's Theater and the Peterson House is that the whole block is usually filled with busloads of tourists going to the stupid Hard Rock Cafe.

[Aggie]

Happy Birthday, sir! And thank you for helping make it possible for me to marry a black man. I salute you!

[Hottub]

Sir. I have disenthralled myself, as per your orders.

[Misteriosa]

this was pretty good... check it out:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/assassination/

happy birthday, mr. lincoln

[ToiletCrusher]

should we get him a new casket?

[Dougie Brootal]

its also darwin's 200th bday. jerks.

[Misteriosa]

check this out too (for lincoln)

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/lookingforlincoln/

its also darwin's 200th bday. jerks.
for all you darwin fans here's a Nova episode they re-aired.. it was awesome:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/id/

[Misteriosa]

i think i watch too much pbs... :down:

[Hottub]

its also darwin's 200th bday. jerks.

Let him have his own thread. This one is for Mr. Lincoln.

[TheMojoPin]

"Great Emancipator" my ass.

Lincoln was an amazing politician. The fact that he basically saved the country and had to walk the tiniest of tightropes to do it is nothing short of astounding, and he deserves eternal respect and admiration for that for as long as this country exists.

That said, however, Lincoln didn't do dick for the slaves. The Emancipation Proclamation didn't do shit. It was a brilliant piece of military strategy that gave the Southern states the option to return to the Union and KEEP slavery in their borders (the document is basically a bribe/ultimatum that gives any state in rebellion 3 months to return to the Union and all is forgiven and they could have kept their slaves) and, most importantly, a show to the European powers, especially Britian, that if they supported the South they supported slavery. France and Britain were seriously considering throwing their lot behind the South and supplying them with weapons and ships because of the cotton, and because they were pissed over the North's blockade of Southern shipping. The EP appealed to the Europeans, especially the British, who were heavily abolotionist and had been critical of the US' continuation of the slave trade as late as 1859. The EP didn't free a single goddamn slave (it essentially expired 3 months after it was unveiled without a single rebellious state returning to the Union), but it basically won the war because it kept the Europeans out. This makes it an incredibly important and brilliant move on Lincoln's part...but we need to see it for what it really was ad not mae it into something it wasn't.

His views on blacks and slavery are even more complicated. Lincoln personally hated the practice of slavery, but he made next to no effort to speak out against it until near his death. Agan, this is not to condemn him...the man was a politician and would have never gotten to where he ended up if he had been even just a vocal abolitionist, but let's not act like he wasn't a "racist." The man was definitely a product of his time. Though he despised the institution of slavery, he shared the common attitude of the time that blacks were inferior and "less than human." Like Jefferson, he felt the two races could never truly integrate and favored the idea of relocating the freed blacks back to Africa whenever emancipation was achived.

Like JFK, Lincoln became far more valuable towards the cause of black civil rights in death than he was in life. The critical Amendments that gave blacks citizenship and black men the right to vote all came in the wake of his death and in his "honor" (and as punishment to the south), though his own rhetoric shows he was very unsure if such things could have been achieved in his lifetime and that it is arguable that they would not have been achieved under his tenure had he not been assassinated.

Lincoln was and is a titan of American politics and history...but we should always remember to see our historical figures as who they really were, and not who we want them to be.

[A.J.]

Lincoln was and is a titan of American politics and history...but we should always remember to see our historical figures as who they really were, and not who we want them to be.

Like the time he helped Kirk and Spock defeat the forces of evil and free the Enterprise from the control of the Excalbians.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_CHdtrg0hmVo/RnrGNcCjB9I/AAAAAAAAAEU/ecL45K67cJE/s400/lincoln.bmp

[TheMojoPin]

Like the time he helped Kirk and Spock defeat the forces of evil and free the Enterprise from the control of the Excalbians.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_CHdtrg0hmVo/RnrGNcCjB9I/AAAAAAAAAEU/ecL45K67cJE/s400/lincoln.bmp

EXACTLY.

Or that time he shot the Aqua Teen Hunger Force to the moon.

HISTORY, PEOPLE.

[Dude!]

"Great Emancipator" my ass.


That said, however, Lincoln didn't do dick for the slaves. The Emancipation Proclamation didn't do shit. It was a brilliant piece of military strategy that gave the Southern states the option to return to the Union and KEEP slavery in their borders (the document is basically a bribe/ultimatum that gives any state in rebellion 3 months to return to the Union and all is forgiven and they could have kept their slaves) and, most importantly, a show to the European powers, especially Britian, that if they supported the South they supported slavery. France and Britain were seriously considering throwing their lot behind the South and supplying them with weapons and ships because of the cotton, and because they were pissed over the North's blockade of Southern shipping. The EP appealed to the Europeans, especially the British, who were heavily abolotionist and had been critical of the US' continuation of the slave trade as late as 1859. The EP didn't free a single goddamn slave (it essentially expired 3 months after it was unveiled without a single rebellious state returning to the Union), but it basically won the war because it kept the Europeans out. This makes it an incredibly important and brilliant move on Lincoln's part...but we need to see it for what it really was ad not mae it into something it wasn't.

His views on blacks and slavery are even more complicated. Lincoln personally hated the practice of slavery, but he made next to no effort to speak out against it until near his death. Agan, this is not to condemn him...the man was a politician and would have never gotten to where he ended up if he had been even just a vocal abolitionist, but let's not act like he wasn't a "racist." The man was definitely a product of his time. Though he despised the institution of slavery, he shared the common attitude of the time that blacks were inferior and "less than human." Like Jefferson, he felt the two races could never truly integrate and favored the idea of relocating the freed blacks back to Africa whenever emancipation was achived.

Like JFK, Lincoln became far more valuable towards the cause of black civil rights in death than he was in life. The critical Amendments that gave blacks citizenship and black men the right to vote all came in the wake of his death and in his "honor" (and as punishment to the south), though his own rhetoric shows he was very unsure if such things could have been achieved in his lifetime and that it is arguable that they would not have been achieved under his tenure had he not been assassinated.

Lincoln was and is a titan of American politics and history...but we should always remember to see our historical figures as who they really were, and not who we want them to be.

i have read about 15 Lincoln biographies
and never once read a reference to his saying or believing
blacks were less than human

please supply a link to document that

frederick douglas said that Lincoln was the ONLY white man
who ever treated him as an equal

[brettmojo]

EXACTLY.

Or that time he shot the Aqua Teen Hunger Force to the moon.

HISTORY, PEOPLE.
I think his most important accomplishment was helping Bill S. Preston Esq. and Ted Theodore Logan get an A on thier history presentations which enabled them to pass the class, save Ted from military school in Alaska and enable Wyld Stallyns to remain together and lay the foundation through their music for the Utopian Society we now enjoy today.

[A.J.]

I think his most important accomplishment was helping Bill S. Preston Esq. and Ted Theodore Logan get an A on thier history presentations which enabled them to pass the class, save Ted from military school in Alaska and enable Wyld Stallyns to remain together and lay the foundation through their music for the Utopian Society we now enjoy today.

I believe it was in Lincoln's Second Inaugural where he urged Americans to "be excellent to each other".

[Furtherman]

Lincoln was and is a titan of American politics and history...but we should always remember to see our historical figures as who they really were, and not who we want them to be.

This goes for George Washington too. "I cannot tell a lie" my ass.

Didja hear the one about the starving soldiers during the winter at Valley Forge?

A lie.

Made up by 'ol George himself to generate sympathy.

And Betsy Ross didn't sew the American Flag! Another lie spread by her grandson.

Our history is FULL of shit.

Enjoy!

[El Mudo]

"Great Emancipator" my ass.

Lincoln was an amazing politician. The fact that he basically saved the country and had to walk the tiniest of tightropes to do it is nothing short of astounding, and he deserves eternal respect and admiration for that for as long as this country exists.

That said, however, Lincoln didn't do dick for the slaves. The Emancipation Proclamation didn't do shit. It was a brilliant piece of military strategy that gave the Southern states the option to return to the Union and KEEP slavery in their borders (the document is basically a bribe/ultimatum that gives any state in rebellion 3 months to return to the Union and all is forgiven and they could have kept their slaves) and, most importantly, a show to the European powers, especially Britian, that if they supported the South they supported slavery. France and Britain were seriously considering throwing their lot behind the South and supplying them with weapons and ships because of the cotton, and because they were pissed over the North's blockade of Southern shipping. The EP appealed to the Europeans, especially the British, who were heavily abolotionist and had been critical of the US' continuation of the slave trade as late as 1859. The EP didn't free a single goddamn slave (it essentially expired 3 months after it was unveiled without a single rebellious state returning to the Union), but it basically won the war because it kept the Europeans out. This makes it an incredibly important and brilliant move on Lincoln's part...but we need to see it for what it really was ad not mae it into something it wasn't.

His views on blacks and slavery are even more complicated. Lincoln personally hated the practice of slavery, but he made next to no effort to speak out against it until near his death. Agan, this is not to condemn him...the man was a politician and would have never gotten to where he ended up if he had been even just a vocal abolitionist, but let's not act like he wasn't a "racist." The man was definitely a product of his time. Though he despised the institution of slavery, he shared the common attitude of the time that blacks were inferior and "less than human." Like Jefferson, he felt the two races could never truly integrate and favored the idea of relocating the freed blacks back to Africa whenever emancipation was achived.

Like JFK, Lincoln became far more valuable towards the cause of black civil rights in death than he was in life. The critical Amendments that gave blacks citizenship and black men the right to vote all came in the wake of his death and in his "honor" (and as punishment to the south), though his own rhetoric shows he was very unsure if such things could have been achieved in his lifetime and that it is arguable that they would not have been achieved under his tenure had he not been assassinated.

Lincoln was and is a titan of American politics and history...but we should always remember to see our historical figures as who they really were, and not who we want them to be.


Couldn't have made those points any better myself...

Kind of ironic that Booth sought to avenge the South on Lincoln's behalf, but by striking him down he ended up making him more powerful than he could ever realize

[A.J.]

Kind of ironic that Booth sought to avenge the South on Lincoln's behalf, but by striking him down he ended up making him more powerful than he could ever realize

Like Darth Vader killing Obi Wan Kenobi.

[TheMojoPin]

i have read about 15 Lincoln biographies
and never once read a reference to his saying or believing
blacks were less than human

please supply a link to document that

frederick douglas said that Lincoln was the ONLY white man
who ever treated him as an equal

It was the mentality of the time. That's what so many people today don't seem to grasp...black people weren't just slaves 145 years ago...they weren't people. They were property. As a lawyer, Lincoln argued cases for slave owners claiming runaway slaves where he very explicitly broke down how the slave was simply property without any actual legal rights of their own. That's less than human.

Whites who thought otherwise represented a very small minority. Even most of those who thought slavery was wrong still thought blacks were inherrently inferior to whites and preferred the idea of blacks being returned to Africa once slavery was abolished. I'm not saying Lincoln hated black people; he didn't. But he didn't think they were equal to whites, who were "human," and he really didn't think true integration after emancipation was possible. He was strictly opposed to using black soldiers ad turned down the idea several times until it was absolutely necessary. Like I said, however, Lincoln was a brilliant politician and he didn't seem to "hate" anyone. He was very compassionate. His feelings towards blacks were just based out of the climate of the time and not any sense of hatred or loathing towards them. They simply were not the same as whites to him and lesser creatures. That was the prevailing "logic" of the time.

I really can't imagine you haven't come across this if you've read that many Lincoln bios. Are you just taking issue with the specific phrase I used? I wasn't attributing it as a direct quote of Lincoln's...that's just my summation of the common mentality at the time.

[Hottub]

President Obama this morning. Washington D.C.

Lincoln "could have sought revenge," Obama said, but he insisted that no Confederate troops be punished.

"All Lincoln wanted was for Confederate troops to go back home and return to work on their farms and in their shops," Obama said. "That was the only way, Lincoln knew, to repair the rifts that had torn this country apart. It was the only way to begin the healing that our nation so desperately needed."

"We are far less divided than in Lincoln's day," but "we are once again debating the critical issues of our time."


"Let us remember that we are doing so as servants to the same flag, as representatives of the same people, and as stakeholders in a common future," Obama said. "That is the most fitting tribute we can pay and the most lasting monument we can build to that most remarkable of men, Abraham Lincoln."

[TheMojoPin]

The ironic thing is that the amendments that came for blacks during the Reconstruction phase were largely done in a sense of "punishing" the South more than a pervasive sense of altruism to help the former slaves, just perpetuating the dehumanizing viewpoint most had towards blacks.

[El Mudo]

This goes for George Washington too. "I cannot tell a lie" my ass.

Didja hear the one about the starving soldiers during the winter at Valley Forge?

A lie.

Made up by 'ol George himself to generate sympathy.

And Betsy Ross didn't sew the American Flag! Another lie spread by her grandson.

Our history is FULL of shit.

Enjoy!


The encampment at Morristown in 1779-80 was actually worse in a lot of respects than Valley Forge (http://www.nps.gov/morr/faqs.htm) (they estimate it was the coldest winter of the entire 18th century)

It was the mentality of the time. That's what so many people today don't seem to grasp...black people weren't just slaves 145 years ago...they weren't people. They were property. As a lawyer, Lincoln argued cases for slave owners claiming runaway slaves where he very explicitly broke down how the slave was simply property without any actual legal rights of their own. That's less than human.

Whites who thought otherwise represented a very small minority. Even most of those who thought slavery was wrong still thought blacks were inherrently inferior to whites and preferred the idea of blacks being returned to Africa once slavery was abolished. I'm not saying Lincoln hated black people; he didn't. But he didn't think they were equal to whites, who were "human," and he really didn't think true integration after emancipation was possible. He was strictly opposed to using black soldiers ad turned down the idea several times until it was absolutely necessary. Like I said, however, Lincoln was a brilliant politician and he didn't seem to "hate" anyone. He was very compassionate. His feelings towards blacks were just based out of the climate of the time and not any sense of hatred or loathing towards them. They simply were not the same as whites to him and lesser creatures. That was the prevailing "logic" of the time.

I really can't imagine you haven't come across this if you've read that many Lincoln bios. Are you just taking issue with the specific phrase I used? I wasn't attributing it as a direct quote of Lincoln's...that's just my summation of the common mentality at the time.





Mojo knows his stuff...listen to him

This is also where people completely misunderstand the 3/4 compromise...it doesn't say slaves are "3/4 of a person" it says "3/4 of the POPULATION of slaves counts in terms of representation in the House. If anything Dred Scott confirmed in law Mojo's point above

Lincoln was also very much in favour of sending the slaves back to Africa when/if they were ever released from bondage (see Liberia)


The ironic thing is that the amendments that came for blacks during the Reconstruction phase were largely done in a sense of "punishing" the South more than a pervasive sense of altruism to help the former slaves, just perpetuating the dehumanizing viewpoint most had towards blacks.


That's a very good point, and they also ensured complete Republican domination of the South, the entire Government and the black vote until President Hayes ended Reconstruction in 1877 (and why there wasn't a Democrat president again until Grover Cleveland in 1885 (and none after Cleveland's second term until Woodrow Wilson in 1913). People forget sometimes also that blacks voted Republican en masse until Franklin Roosevelt changed the game.

[TheMojoPin]

This is also where people completely misunderstand the 3/4 compromise...it doesn't say slaves are "3/4 of a person" it says "3/4 of the POPULATION of slaves counts in terms of representation in the House. If anything Dred Scott confirmed in law Mojo's point above

Yeah, the 3/4's thing gets flipped all the time. It's probably one of the most commonly repeated bits of mistaken information in American history.

And the Dred Scott decision led to one of the most monstrous things a Supreme Court justice has ever declared:

"beings of an inferior order, and altogether unfit to associate with the white race, either in social or political relations, and so far inferior that they had no rights which the white man was bound to respect."

Insanity. The Court actually used the Constitution to stamp down the idea of blacks as people by stating that they were nothing more than property and that the Constitution's language in regards to personal property protecting the rights of whites to own other people was declared viable over simply recognizing another race as human beings.

By the time the Civil War rode around, the station of blacks in American society was the lowest it had been in the nation's history. It's really hard to emphasize how dehumanized they were to the country at large and how the end of slavery ad the amendments that followed did barely anything to change the perceptions most whites had as blacks. When you grow up thinking an entire race is inferior or property or even inhuman, that kind of mentality doesn't just flip off. That takes a looooooooooonnnnnng time to chage, and to me it's pretty clear we're still dealing with it today.

Lincoln was also very much in favour of sending the slaves back to Africa when/if they were ever released from bondage (see Liberia)

He's remarkably similar to Jefferson in how he did not think the races could live together.

[Thebazile78]

The encampment at Morristown in 1779-80 was actually worse in a lot of respects than Valley Forge (http://www.nps.gov/morr/faqs.htm) (they estimate it was the coldest winter of the entire 18th century)

If you've never been to Morristown's very tiny historic district, you're missing out. Between the geology, which has changed very little in the 200 years since that winter, and the ghost-hunters on the Green, it's fascinating.

I haven't been to the actual parks or anything, but I've driven past the Green on my way to one or the other errand before I got married (between the Irish store and the Dain Shoppe corseterie, I had all my bases covered) but I've often wanted to go and sightsee a bit more.

...
Lincoln was also very much in favour of sending the slaves back to Africa when/if they were ever released from bondage (see Liberia)

I always thought that Liberia was Pres. Monroe's pet project, seeing as how the captial is named Monrovia, but you learn something new every day.

[TheMojoPin]

I always thought that Liberia was Pres. Monroe's pet project, seeing as how the captial is named Monrovia, but you learn something new every day.

Liberia was founded on Monroe's watch (and the British setup Sierra Leone shortly thereafter with similar intentions, though they wanted it to drop of slaves they captured when they took out slave traders on the Middle Passage since the UK had already abolished slavery), but the back to Africa movement was something that was an ongoing debate/issue when Lincoln was on the scene and it was typically his opinion of what was best in regards to the end of slavery.

[Thebazile78]

Liberia was founded on Monroe's watch (and the British setup Sierra Leone shortly thereafter with similar intentions, though they wanted it to drop of slaves they captured when they took out slave traders on the Middle Passage since the UK had already abolished slavery), but the back to Africa movement was something that was an ongoing debate/issue when Lincoln was on the scene and it was typically his opinion of what was best in regards to the end of slavery.

Thanks for the clarification; I appreciate it.

[TheMojoPin]

No worries.

While the back to Africa movement was a very popular idea with most white abolitionists pretty steadily, it seems to hae waxed and waned with blacks themselves. It was popular among free blacks when it was first thought up, but quickly fell out of favor and was seen as a kind of "selling out," especilly since most blacks at that point had been born in America ad saw themselves as American. It's odd, but you can track the idea of "back to Africa" or at least a resurgance of interest in African identity among many blacks roughly every 30 years in American history going back to the 1820's, then it always falls out of favor again.

[Coach]

That reminds me, I have to tivo the documentary on the plot to steal Lincoln's body and hold it for ransom..I think it is on tonight on History Channel.

[CofyCrakCocaine]

I thought Liberia went back before Monroe, or at least the idea of a colony for freed slaves who wanted to have a country of their own based in Africa. For example, during the Revolutionary War, there were over a thousand black Tories (Loyalists) fighting for the British and alot of them wound up in Liberia (or trying to found Liberia) after the Americans won the war in 1783.

Just wondering.

[CofyCrakCocaine]

Mojo, fired you a PM.

Misti, loved that documentary I saw it on TV this week. Thanks for linking it!

Mudo, always knowledgable (is that a misspelled word Liz?) about this stuff and respectful at the same time.

You guys really know how to make a guy who thinks he knows history feel like a know-nothing dope. ;)

[Dude!]

You guys really know how to make a guy who thinks he knows history feel like a know-nothing dope.

they made most of it up, so don't feel like a dope

[TheMojoPin]

they made most of it up, so don't feel like a dope

What was made up?

[TheMojoPin]

I thought Liberia went back before Monroe, or at least the idea of a colony for freed slaves who wanted to have a country of their own based in Africa. For example, during the Revolutionary War, there were over a thousand black Tories (Loyalists) fighting for the British and alot of them wound up in Liberia (or trying to found Liberia) after the Americans won the war in 1783.

Just wondering.

You're thinking of Sierra Leone.

[STC-Dub]

Crap, I forgot to get him a present again.

[CofyCrakCocaine]

You're thinking of Sierra Leone.

Shit.

[Gvac]

I'll never be over Sierra Leone.

[jauble]

I'll never be over Sierra Leone.

Perhaps your next hat that you can really get behind is of the stove top variety?

[CofyCrakCocaine]

Perhaps your next hat that you can really get behind is of the stove top variety?

This belongs in post purgatory. Do the right thing, son. Your pancreas demands it.

[jauble]

This belongs in post purgatory. Do the right thing, son. Your pancreas demands it.

I'm not that powerful. I just keep the kitchen in the staff room.

[CofyCrakCocaine]

I'll never be over Sierra Leone.

wait you'll never be over what happened to sierra leone?

or you'll never be to sierra leone?

[Coach]

I'll never be over Sierra Leone.
:lol::lol::lol:
I got it!

[El Mudo]

Yeah, the 3/4's thing gets flipped all the time. It's probably one of the most commonly repeated bits of mistaken information in American history.

And the Dred Scott decision led to one of the most monstrous things a Supreme Court justice has ever declared:



Insanity. The Court actually used the Constitution to stamp down the idea of blacks as people by stating that they were nothing more than property and that the Constitution's language in regards to personal property protecting the rights of whites to own other people was declared viable over simply recognizing another race as human beings.

By the time the Civil War rode around, the station of blacks in American society was the lowest it had been in the nation's history. It's really hard to emphasize how dehumanized they were to the country at large and how the end of slavery ad the amendments that followed did barely anything to change the perceptions most whites had as blacks. When you grow up thinking an entire race is inferior or property or even inhuman, that kind of mentality doesn't just flip off. That takes a looooooooooonnnnnng time to chage, and to me it's pretty clear we're still dealing with it today.



He's remarkably similar to Jefferson in how he did not think the races could live together.



One of the really ironic things about Roger B. Taney (who wrote the Court's opinion on Dred Scott) was that he personally hated slavery, but is the man who did more to uphold it and validate it in law than anyone ever possibly could.

Its from wikipedia, so take it with a grain of salt...

Taney's own attitudes toward slavery were more complex. Taney not only emancipated his own slaves, but gave pensions to those who were too old to work. In 1819, he defended a Methodist minister who had been indicted for inciting slave insurrections by denouncing slavery in a camp meeting. In his opening argument in that case Taney condemned slavery as "a blot on our national character."

I think what was actually WORSE than slavery in many respects was what happened directly after the war in Reconstruction, and I think that's why Lincoln was intrigued by the whole Liberia idea, out of a moral sense of not letting these poor people with no skills, no literacy and no where else to go wander the back roads of the South, which is exactly what happened. Its one of the greatest tragedies of this entire nation's history that something like 4 MILLION PEOPLE were basically left to wander around on their own (and were essentially forced back into pseudo slavery with the business of sharecropping). THIS is what we are still feeling today as a country/society.

Perhaps your next hat that you can really get behind is of the stove top variety?

Alan Pinkerton's bowler hat OWNS Lincoln's stove pipe hat in that picture...

Pinkerton was a great detective, but may have been the worst military intelligence guy in the entire history of military intelligence guys.

[TheMojoPin]

I think what was actually WORSE than slavery in many respects was what happened directly after the war in Reconstruction, and I think that's why Lincoln was intrigued by the whole Liberia idea, out of a moral sense of not letting these poor people with no skills, no literacy and no where else to go wander the back roads of the South, which is exactly what happened. Its one of the greatest tragedies of this entire nation's history that something like 4 MILLION PEOPLE were basically left to wander around on their own (and were essentially forced back into pseudo slavery with the business of sharecropping). THIS is what we are still feeling today as a country/society.

Definitely, and it certainly seems like like that sudden "chaos" was part of the plan for punishing the south. It did virtually nothing to change the racial attitudes in this country as so many seem to assume.

I think Lincoln would have realized that the Liberia plan simply wasn't feasable after the war given the sheer logisitics of shipping millions of people bck to Africa.

[Furtherman]

they made most of it up, so don't feel like a dope

And here is a perfect example of a lack of curiosity.

[Dude!]

And here is a perfect example of a lack of curiosity.

i'm very curious...
as to what makes you such a douche

what did your parents do to you?

[Furtherman]

i'm very curious...
as to what makes you such a douche

what did your parents do to you?

They were great!

The douche here is you. Claiming all there facts that have been presented to you as "made up." However I'm sure your spoon fed history suits you fine, great, but please, don't bother us here with your ignorance.

[A.J.]

i'm very curious...
as to what makes you such a douche

what did your parents do to you?

:nono:

[Thebazile78]

No worries.

While the back to Africa movement was a very popular idea with most white abolitionists pretty steadily, it seems to hae waxed and waned with blacks themselves. It was popular among free blacks when it was first thought up, but quickly fell out of favor and was seen as a kind of "selling out," especilly since most blacks at that point had been born in America ad saw themselves as American. It's odd, but you can track the idea of "back to Africa" or at least a resurgance of interest in African identity among many blacks roughly every 30 years in American history going back to the 1820's, then it always falls out of favor again.

So, in other words that's how LeRoy Jackson became Amiri Baraka? (Reductionist, yes. But I'm trying to get a sense of context.)

[El Mudo]

Definitely, and it certainly seems like like that sudden "chaos" was part of the plan for punishing the south. It did virtually nothing to change the racial attitudes in this country as so many seem to assume.

I think Lincoln would have realized that the Liberia plan simply wasn't feasable after the war given the sheer logisitics of shipping millions of people bck to Africa.


The Radical Republicans had such a hard on for destroying the Aristocratic Society and political power of the plantation owner south (and the Democratic Party, and liberal Republicans like Horace Greeley) that is incredible in its Old Testament prophet-like zeal.

Raises an interesting question as to the issue of "gravitas". Since Lincoln was so popular and had carried the country through the war, would that have been enough for him to fight both the Senate and the House Republicans in the way that President Johnson was never able to? (mainly because he was a drunk and an incompetent, and no one liked him, and he was a southern democrat put on the ticket by Lincoln to even it out). People also forget how politically powerful the GAR (Grand Army of the Republic, the "American Legion" so to speak, for Federal Army Veterans) was.

Reconstruction is one of the most misunderstood, drastically important events this country has ever gone through....we will STILL be feeling its effects 100 years from now.


The South fought for 4 years to separate itself from the Union, but even though they were unsuccessful, essentially the Congressional Reconstruction acts threw them OUT of the Union in 1867....they got what they wanted pretty much :wink:

[TheMojoPin]

So, in other words that's how LeRoy Jackson became Amiri Baraka? (Reductionist, yes. But I'm trying to get a sense of context.)

Exactly. We saw a surge of it in the early and mid 90's, and before that during the 60's.

[TheMojoPin]

The Radical Republicans had such a hard on for destroying the Aristocratic Society and political power of the plantation owner south (and the Democratic Party, and liberal Republicans like Horace Greeley) that is incredible in its Old Testament prophet-like zeal.

Raises an interesting question as to the issue of "gravitas". Since Lincoln was so popular and had carried the country through the war, would that have been enough for him to fight both the Senate and the House Republicans in the way that President Johnson was never able to? (mainly because he was a drunk and an incompetent, and no one liked him, and he was a southern democrat put on the ticket by Lincoln to even it out). People also forget how politically powerful the GAR (Grand Army of the Republic, the "American Legion" so to speak, for Federal Army Veterans) was.

Reconstruction is one of the most misunderstood, drastically important events this country has ever gone through....we will STILL be feeling its effects 100 years from now.


The South fought for 4 years to separate itself from the Union, but even though they were unsuccessful, essentially the Congressional Reconstruction acts threw them OUT of the Union in 1867....they got what they wanted pretty much :wink:

Johnson was a champion boozer. Probably the drinkingest president we ever had.

The "what if's" with Lincoln are so huge, it's hard to wrap my head around. His death shaped so much of what happened afterwards that it's tricky for me to imagine how he would dealt with the issues of Reconstruction and the question of what to do with all the former slaves.

[El Mudo]

Johnson was a champion boozer. Probably the drinkingest president we ever had.

The "what if's" with Lincoln are so huge, it's hard to wrap my head around. His death shaped so much of what happened afterwards that it's tricky for me to imagine how he would dealt with the issues of Reconstruction and the question of what to do with all the former slaves.


He was completely hammered/hung over when he spoke at Lincoln's inauguration

[CofyCrakCocaine]

Johnson was a champion boozer. Probably the drinkingest president we ever had.

The "what if's" with Lincoln are so huge, it's hard to wrap my head around. His death shaped so much of what happened afterwards that it's tricky for me to imagine how he would dealt with the issues of Reconstruction and the question of what to do with all the former slaves.

Likely if he hadn't died, he wouldn't have been as well liked as he is today. There's something about dying for a cause that makes somebody immortal. Socrates, Jesus, and Lincoln.

Lincoln was ardently against initiating vengeance upon the South after the surrender at Appomattox. Jefferson Davis was not swinging from a tree because of this. The irony of John Wilkes Booth's act was that he did it out of sympathy for the South. Yet by killing Lincoln, he pretty much assured that Reconstruction would be a brutal period for the South.

And naturally that was even worse news for the freed slaves.

[CofyCrakCocaine]

He was completely hammered/hung over when he spoke at Lincoln's inauguration

I wish I could impeach him today.

[El Mudo]

Likely if he hadn't died, he wouldn't have been as well liked as he is today. There's something about dying for a cause that makes somebody immortal. Socrates, Jesus, and Lincoln.

Lincoln was ardently against initiating vengeance upon the South after the surrender at Appomattox. Jefferson Davis was not swinging from a tree because of this. The irony of John Wilkes Booth's act was that he did it out of sympathy for the South. Yet by killing Lincoln, he pretty much assured that Reconstruction would be a brutal period for the South.

And naturally that was even worse news for the freed slaves.


Sorry if i'm being too semantical, but did Lincoln really "die for a cause"? He got shot in the back of the head by a nutjob while he watched a play

I think any president that wins a war for us gets automatic kudos throughout history

[CofyCrakCocaine]

Sorry if i'm being too semantical, but did Lincoln really "die for a cause"? He got shot in the back of the head by a nutjob while he watched a play

I think any president that wins a war for us gets automatic kudos throughout history

I was thinking about how I was wording that and decided "what the hell" and left it alone. Socrates voluntarily drank the hemlock, Jesus knew he was dying for man's sins, and Lincoln was waiting for that funny line that never came.

I should have said something more to the effect that his death furthered his cause.

[TheMojoPin]

I was thinking about how I was wording that and decided "what the hell" and left it alone. Socrates voluntarily drank the hemlock, Jesus knew he was dying for man's sins, and Lincoln was waiting for that funny line that never came.

Oh, he got the line. Booth waited until everyone was laughing to shoot him, so at least Abe went with a smile on his face.

[high fly]

So, in other words that's how LeRoy Jackson became Amiri Baraka? (Reductionist, yes. But I'm trying to get a sense of context.)



Exactly. We saw a surge of it in the early and mid 90's, and before that during the 60's.


Yeah, and I remember occasionally coming across a racist trying to be clever by insisting on calling Muhammed Ali Cassius Clay, not because they didn't like the blacks, but because they felt so strongly a person should never change their name.
Those conversations got pretty ridiculous back in the day.....

[high fly]

Likely if he hadn't died, he wouldn't have been as well liked as he is today. There's something about dying for a cause that makes somebody immortal. Socrates, Jesus, and Lincoln.




You forgot Brian Jones...

[spoon]

Happy Belated Birthday brother. You're one of my favorite posters here by far.

[Thebazile78]

Yeah, and I remember occasionally coming across a racist trying to be clever by insisting on calling Muhammed Ali Cassius Clay, not because they didn't like the blacks, but because they felt so strongly a person should never change their name.
Those conversations got pretty ridiculous back in the day.....

You know what? I was looking at my Amiri Baraka post all afternoon and didn't correct it. His birth name wasn't "Jackson" it was "Jones" ... and we read some of his stuff in my literature survey courses in college. (Where it was inevitably mentioned that he taught at Livingston College during its early days.)

[A.J.]

Johnson was a champion boozer. Probably the drinkingest president we ever had.

If I ever had motivation to run for President....

Mojo will be my Secretary of Partying Down.

[TheMojoPin]

That bra bomb of yours better work, Nerdlinger!

[El Mudo]

I really can't wait until the new Pursuit of Lincoln mini series thing (by the guys who did The Wire) comes out on HBO...its a really amazing story. Booth is such a complex, disturbing character.

Even more amazing/strange is the tale of Boston Corbett, the cavalryman who shot him at the Garrett farmhouse. He was a man who became a complete religious fanatic (going so far as to castrate himself to prevent sexual urges and keeping his hair uncut), survived Andersonville prison, and made it out West where he became a doorman for the Court and living in a hole in the ground (he ended up attempting to shoot up the court room and disappearing from the nut hut)

[Dude!]

I really can't wait until the new Pursuit of Lincoln mini series thing (by the guys who did The Wire) comes out on HBO...its a really amazing story. Booth is such a complex, disturbing character.

Even more amazing/strange is the tale of Boston Corbett, the cavalryman who shot him at the Garrett farmhouse. He was a man who became a complete religious fanatic (going so far as to castrate himself to prevent sexual urges and keeping his hair uncut), survived Andersonville prison, and made it out West where he became a doorman for the Court and living in a hole in the ground (he ended up attempting to shoot up the court room and disappearing from the nut hut)

wow
i want to see that

[TheMojoPin]

I really can't wait until the new Pursuit of Lincoln mini series thing (by the guys who did The Wire) comes out on HBO...its a really amazing story. Booth is such a complex, disturbing character.

Even more amazing/strange is the tale of Boston Corbett, the cavalryman who shot him at the Garrett farmhouse. He was a man who became a complete religious fanatic (going so far as to castrate himself to prevent sexual urges and keeping his hair uncut), survived Andersonville prison, and made it out West where he became a doorman for the Court and living in a hole in the ground (he ended up attempting to shoot up the court room and disappearing from the nut hut)

Between that, Pacific and the Tom Hanks' produced mini-series about Lee Harvey Oswald and the JFK assassination based on the Bugliois book, HBO's going a long way to making me pay for their shitty, shitty channel again.

[CofyCrakCocaine]

Between that, Pacific and the Tom Hanks' produced mini-series about Lee Harvey Oswald and the JFK assassination based on the Bugliois book, HBO's going a long way to making me pay for their shitty, shitty channel again.

And that John Adams show wasn't bad either. Oops, now I have to go and revote in Joek's thread to 24% agreement with Ron.

[TheMojoPin]

And that John Adams show wasn't bad either. Oops, now I have to go and revote in Joek's thread to 24% agreement with Ron.

Yeah, loved that and Generation Kill, but as soon as GK was done I killed it.

[CofyCrakCocaine]

Yeah, loved that and Generation Kill, but as soon as GK was done I killed it.

You made the right choice. Channel hasn't been shit since.

[El Mudo]

Spielberg can't get his Lincoln movie made... (http://www.thebigmoney.com/articles/impressions/2009/02/17/spielbergs-lincoln-troubles)

I would go see a Lincoln movie. Especially if they got Matthew Broderick to play George McClellan, since he looked exactly like him when he played Robert Gould Shaw in Glory


http://www.movieposterdb.com/posters/05_09/1989/0097441/l_50979_0097441_6aed8ff1.jpg