What came before something?

[RMPGP]

I enjoyed this break on Monday's show about what caused SOMETHING to exist.

I know science can tell us what happened AFTER the big bang, but what about before it?

I found this article which talks a little about it...

http://www.fortunecity.com/emachines/e11/86/big-bang.html

Here's an excerpt:

So we are faced with the problem of what happened beforehand to trigger the big bang. Journalists love to taunt scientists with this question when they complain about the money being spent on science. Actually, the answer (in my opinion) was spotted a long time ago, by one Augustine of Hippo, a Christian saint who lived in the fifth century. In those days before science, cosmology was a branch of theology, and the taunt came not from journalists, but from pagans: "What was God doing before he made the universe?" they asked. "Busy creating Hell for the likes of you!" was the standard reply.

But Augustine was more subtle. The world, he claimed, was made "not in time, but simultaneously with time." In other words, the origin of the universe-what we now call the big bang-was not simply the sudden appearance of matter in an eternally preexisting void, but the coming into being of time itself. Time began with the cosmic origin. There was no "before," no endless ocean of time for a god, or a physical process, to wear itself out in infinite preparation.

[slames]

I've thought about this for days over the course of my life. And I've come to think that the "universe" we live in is only the product of another universe propagating its species. Much like a plant I think we fell away from a mother plant universe as a seedling and will constantly expand until our universe runs its course, withers, and dies. And maybe somewhere in the vastness or on the fringe of our universe there is a seedling waiting to feed off the energy of everything we know to exist and more dying to create a new universe.

[toolshed]

the egg.

[ToiletCrusher]

Sounds like a relatively egocentric question. What existed before me?

everything.

[Sloppy2nds]

Something always comes from nothing, geez.

[RMPGP]

I've thought about this for days over the course of my life. And I've come to think that the "universe" we live in is only the product of another universe propagating its species. Much like a plant I think we fell away from a mother plant universe as a seedling and will constantly expand until our universe runs its course, withers, and dies. And maybe somewhere in the vastness or on the fringe of our universe there is a seedling waiting to feed off the energy of everything we know to exist and more dying to create a new universe.

But how did the mother plant universe come into existence? Was there always something or was there first nothingness and then something? What happened in the nothingness to cause something?

I do disagree with Ron about the fact that beauty didn't exist until we existed. Just because we can assign thought and words to something and call something beauty doesn't mean that thing wasn't just as beautiful before we were here. The Universe existed long before us, gave birth to us, and will be around long after us, the concept of beauty seems almost trivial. On the other hand the concept of consciousness seems amazing and inconceivable and is one of the great mysteries of the universe.

[Serpico1103]

I do disagree with Ron about the fact that beauty didn't exist until we existed. Just because we can assign thought and words to something and call something beauty doesn't mean that thing wasn't just as beautiful before we were here. The Universe existed long before us, gave birth to us, and will be around long after us, the concept of beauty seems almost trivial. On the other hand the concept of consciousness seems amazing and inconceivable and is one of the great mysteries of the universe.

I felt the same way. To say that beauty didn't exist before us is simplistic. Flowers before Homo sapiens were not beautiful? Nature makes art that makes human art work look like a child's scribbling.
Malcolm Gladwell, author of Blink, wrote in one of his books, can't remember which right now, about how humans aren't special because every "unique" characteristic we assign ourselves also exists in the animal kingdom. He talked about art and animals. In rush, but I'll look into it.

Compared to a table, how do we as a race really effect the universe in a meaningful way? We are only important to ourselves.

[underdog]

I felt the same way. To say that beauty didn't exist before us is simplistic. Flowers before Homo sapiens were not beautiful? Nature makes art that makes human art work look like a child's scribbling.
Malcolm Gladwell, author of Blink, wrote in one of his books, can't remember which right now, about how humans aren't special because every "unique" characteristic we assign ourselves also exists in the animal kingdom. He talked about art and animals. In rush, but I'll look into it.

Compared to a table, how do we as a race really effect the universe in a meaningful way? We are only important to ourselves.

But we weren't here to witness the beauty or to assign them beauty. I think it's sort of like the whole "if a tree falls in the forest..." thing.

[Serpico1103]

But we weren't here to witness the beauty or to assign them beauty. I think it's sort of like the whole "if a tree falls in the forest..." thing.

Again, do we need to bestow beauty on things, or are they inherently beautiful.

The thing is beautiful, in my opinion, whether human eyes or no eyes every see it.

[underdog]

Again, do we need to bestow beauty on things, or are they inherently beautiful.

The thing is beautiful, in my opinion, whether human eyes or no eyes every see it.

So the tree makes a sound. It's completely a matter of opinion.

[razorboy]

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[WampusCrandle]

Again, do we need to bestow beauty on things, or are they inherently beautiful.

The thing is beautiful, in my opinion, whether human eyes or no eyes every see it.

but you can't have beauty until society deems it beauty. for the longest time, the Chinese culture deemed obese men to be beautiful because they could afford to be fat. in America, skinny is beautiful. so, how can both opposites be the same thing? it's because people made up what beauty means.

[Gvac]

Why attempt to know the unknowable?

Talk about a waste of time.

[disneyspy]

i know,right?

[Dell]

waste of time on this board... ridiculus

did gold have "value" before observation?... "beauty" is a "value" that requires an observer

[shortchaz]

the egg.
thats bullshit

[SatCam]

I think this video explains it best


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[biozombie]

Q: What came before something?
A: Something else.

[Serpico1103]

but you can't have beauty until society deems it beauty. for the longest time, the Chinese culture deemed obese men to be beautiful because they could afford to be fat. in America, skinny is beautiful. so, how can both opposites be the same thing? it's because people made up what beauty means.

It is not about US. We are fleas on a ball circling another ball in an infinite let constantly growing space.
You are using a very limited definition of beauty, that changes from person to person or culture to culture. I am referencing beauty in a grand scale.

The book I was talking about was The Third Chimpanzee, by Jared Diamond, author of Guns, Germs, and Steel. Not Malcolm Gladwell. I recommend both of Diamond's books, and all three of Gladwell's.

Saying beauty didn't exist before people is like saying nothing existed before people.
A tree makes a sound if no one is there to hear it, sound waves are created, beauty exists if no one is there to see it.

[cigarsandscotch]

I was psyched to here them talk about this. It's a concept that keeps me awake at night. The Big Bang starts with all the matter in the universe compressed into a tiny ball the size of a marble which expands into the current universe we have. Okay, fine, I can grasp that. But where the fuck did the marble come from? It's impossible for something to have ALWAYS existed, there has to be an origin.

If your answer is God, then where did he come from? If your answer is scientific, then where did the matter come from? The only thing that makes sense (but still seems entirely impossible) is that matter can slowly form from absolute nothingness. Maybe it takes gazillions of years to form the tiniest quark of matter, and slowly, quark by quark, all of the matter in the universe formed over a period of time too great for us to comprehend. It flies in the face of "mater cannot be created or destroyed" concept, but realistically, how else did it come into being?

Shit, I wish I still smoked pot.

[RMPGP]

Maybe it takes gazillions of years to form the tiniest quark of matter, and slowly, quark by quark, all of the matter in the universe formed over a period of time too great for us to comprehend. It flies in the face of "mater cannot be created or destroyed" concept, but realistically, how else did it come into being?

Shit, I wish I still smoked pot.

Damnit I was hoping for one of your animated gifs to give us all the answer. ;)

The part I underlined above, I would ask a similar question of how did time begin? Did time always exist? Was there always time or was there ever a point when there was timelessness and then time began with the big began? Did time exist before matter?

[JAH1013]

I was psyched to here them talk about this. It's a concept that keeps me awake at night. The Big Bang starts with all the matter in the universe compressed into a tiny ball the size of a marble which expands into the current universe we have. Okay, fine, I can grasp that. But where the fuck did the marble come from? It's impossible for something to have ALWAYS existed, there has to be an origin.

If your answer is God, then where did he come from? If your answer is scientific, then where did the matter come from? The only thing that makes sense (but still seems entirely impossible) is that matter can slowly form from absolute nothingness. Maybe it takes gazillions of years to form the tiniest quark of matter, and slowly, quark by quark, all of the matter in the universe formed over a period of time too great for us to comprehend. It flies in the face of "mater cannot be created or destroyed" concept, but realistically, how else did it come into being?

Shit, I wish I still smoked pot.

Without pot, this subject makes my brain hurt.:wacko:

[Dr Steve]

I've thought about this for days over the course of my life. And I've come to think that the "universe" we live in is only the product of another universe propagating its species. Much like a plant I think we fell away from a mother plant universe as a seedling and will constantly expand until our universe runs its course, withers, and dies. And maybe somewhere in the vastness or on the fringe of our universe there is a seedling waiting to feed off the energy of everything we know to exist and more dying to create a new universe.

There are some really cool new theories on this.

The "brane" theory resolves the problem of "what came before nothing?" because the branes that created this universe existed before the universe did. Similarly the multiverse theory works just as you said...there can be an infinitely old multiverse that squeezed out a turd (which we call "our" universe)...that also gets rid of the "how did something come from nothing?" problem.

On a related subject, we have 5 billion years to get off this planet before the sun goes Red Giant and engulfs us. We have 23 billion years (approximately) to figure out a way to get to a younger universe before entropy or the "big rip" ends it all. If we don't figure out a way to do these things, it's all just silly.

[Drunky McBetidont]

There are some really cool new theories on this.

The "brane" theory resolves the problem of "what came before nothing?" because the branes that created this universe existed before the universe did. Similarly the multiverse theory works just as you said...there can be an infinitely old multiverse that squeezed out a turd (which we call "our" universe)...that also gets rid of the "how did something come from nothing?" problem.

On a related subject, we have 5 billion years to get off this planet before the sun goes Red Giant and engulfs us. We have 23 billion years (approximately) to figure out a way to get to a younger universe before entropy or the "big rip" ends it all. If we don't figure out a way to do these things, it's all just silly.

mike the teacher has a new board character.

[Dr Steve]

I was psyched to here them talk about this. It's a concept that keeps me awake at night. The Big Bang starts with all the matter in the universe compressed into a tiny ball the size of a marble which expands into the current universe we have. Okay, fine, I can grasp that. But where the fuck did the marble come from? It's impossible for something to have ALWAYS existed, there has to be an origin.

If your answer is God, then where did he come from? If your answer is scientific, then where did the matter come from? The only thing that makes sense (but still seems entirely impossible) is that matter can slowly form from absolute nothingness. Maybe it takes gazillions of years to form the tiniest quark of matter, and slowly, quark by quark, all of the matter in the universe formed over a period of time too great for us to comprehend. It flies in the face of "mater cannot be created or destroyed" concept, but realistically, how else did it come into being?

Shit, I wish I still smoked pot.

Inflation takes care of some of these objections...if the universe was an infinitely small point (i.e., didn't really exist) and then, because quantum theory states the odds are not zero, so given a long enough time the strangest things become LIKELY to happen, a bubble expanded to a macroscopic size instantaneously. The energy to do this is more than enough to create all the matter in the universe and leave some energy left over to make..well, energy. The NET mass/energy of the system remains zero (because inflation was caused by a negative force) so you don't have the paradox of something being made from nothing (we know that happens on a quantum level all the time).

I'm not even an atheist...I believe (call me crazy if you will) that God is not only omnibenevolent, omnipotent, and omnicient, but He is also omniefficient; creating all the conditions to create life just by creating a single force from which all matter and energy derive is a really, really cool way to start a universe.

[hanso]

Screwing>Cumming

[PapaBear]

Talk about a waste of time.
Ok. I will.

Back before people had call waiting, I used to sometimes listen to a busy signal for very long periods of time. Just to find out if it would stop being busy. That was a waste of time.