God [Archive] - RonFez.net Messageboard

vegeta

01-11-2002, 04:15 PM

Well, I don't think that God is a mystical Magical being like it says in the bible.

Basically, I think that "God" is really a humanoid, much like we are, and heaven is a planet where all of the "Angels," who are his followers, also live. And his son was really his son, sent to this planet to straighten out things.

All of the miracles could have been done using advanced sciences that we still have yet to master.

Think of it:

Doctors have done Rressurections in emergency rooms. I'm betting you can turn water into wine with enough experimentation.

Is God all that powerful, or were we assured that there is life after death to make us less afraid of death?

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Se7en

01-11-2002, 04:49 PM

Not to gripe and bitch (though I will), but if this is a serious question being posed, how about we try to give Vegeta a serious answer. That's basically a response other than "Uh, there is no God." I mean, if the guy is asking for an answer, that isn't one, since it really adds nothing to the discussion.

I'll give you my answer: the most basic Christian belief (and I'll use Baptist theology since I'm most familiar with it) is that God has always existed. God wasn't created, it (or he, if you like) has always been in existence, and always will be. It's kind of a bizarre concept to try and wrap your brain around, since as finite beings, we can't fully grasp the infinite. I mean, have you ever thought about the concept of infinity? Something never having a beginning or ending? It's heavy stuff. Anyway, that's the most basic of the God theologies: God's the big boss, and has always existed. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." That kind of stuff. At some point, God decided to just start creating stuff, and there you are. But, using the Bible and most religious texts, there is no clear-cut reference made to the creation of God itself.

Now, there are different theories of theology too, and if you really want to give yourself a headache you could try to work your way through all of the different schools of thought (and there are TONS of them). The concept of "God" itself is very difficult to understand, and as you know, there are countless different definitions as to what God is.

As for my own definition of God, I perceive him as a being vastly superior to ourselves. Is God humanoid? I couldn't tell you. You're dealing with a creature that, if you believe in the creation account, is above and beyond every known law of science because it *created* them.

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vegeta

01-11-2002, 04:59 PM

Right on the money, sev!

Yeah, but that's the hardest point to understand.

Always existing?!

Just imagine being here for the beginning of the universe!

And to add to my whole "Planet Heaven" theory, I think that in heaven, God is represented as a sentient, disembodied head, much like the leader of the original Mighty Morphin Power Rangers.

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This message was edited by vegeta on 1-11-02 @ 9:10 PM

CYYYFYYY

01-11-2002, 07:12 PM

How come we can not accept
humans one day just being
there but we can accept that a
G-d has always been
there??????

David the Franchize
Everyone Loves CYYYFYYY

reeshy

01-11-2002, 07:25 PM

When I was younger, I would always doubt the existence of God. I could never understand how God could permit the suffering that is visited upon our planet.

Then, one day, I woke up older. It's not God who hurts other people-but other people. We have a thing called free will. What we do with it is up to us,

Since sept 11, I have come to rely upon God as my guidance. He has given me the courage to carry on with my job and help others as best as I can. I could not have done this through the last few months without Him.

I have since retired from my job but I still rely on my God as I understand him! I just hope that you can find the god of your choice for guidance and comfort in times of need and even of times of plenty!

Bless you all!!

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This Is Me Now!!

This message was edited by reeshy on 1-11-02 @ 11:33 PM

NewYorkDragons80

01-11-2002, 07:48 PM

I have a hard time believing that the human race is a freak accident, that the existence of intelligent life only on this planet was an accident. If religion is a creation of man, what did man do before it? I have witnessed miracles, but that is my experience. God has cured cancer, has science? Others may not have been so lucky as to witness divine grace here on Earth, so I leave them their appearance. There were times when I was skeptical, but when if you allow God to come to you, he does. That line has been repeated ad nauseum, but it really is true. You can ask the question who created God, but it still leaves you with the question: Who created the world?

That's my 2 cents. Now, HK is gonna reply with an angry post calling me weak, or telling me "Whatever makes you feel comfortable." Go ahead, give me a Neitzche quote. God's been dead for over 100 years now according to him, but have you seen a church lately? It's like Yankee Stadium every October. When God is replaced by man, the failure of a society begins.

"THOSE BASTARDS"
-Norman Schwartzkoff

"May God bless us in this trial, comfort us, strengthen our resolve, and make our justice as terrible and certain as His."
-Senator John McCain

"Neitzche is dead"
-God

IkeaBoy

01-12-2002, 02:15 AM

I think my belief, or lack thereof, in God is known but a few comments.
Isn't vegeta's theory similar to the episode of Star Trek "Who Mourns for Adonis?" with the living greek gods? And I actually read a book (Alien Agenda by Jim Marrs, author of JFK assassination bible Crossfire) that makes the arguement that all the apparitions of God and the chariots of fire, etc. are nothing more than UFOs.

that the existence of intelligent life only on this planet was an accidentHow do you know that the existence of intelligent life is only on this planet? Are you saying you don't believe that extraterrestrial beings can/do exist?God has cured cancer, has science? When has this happened? Can you prove this?

I'll get into more complex answers when it's less earlater.

-----
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vegeta

01-12-2002, 02:40 AM

Well, NY Dragon, the issue of how we were created is not really the topic.

The issue is how was god always just here.

Like someone on this thread said, we are finite beings and god apparantly always has been alive and always will be, one of the perplexing questions about creation that have gone unanswered.

I'm not saying that God's not real. I'm just saying that the bible, like any other book, had its exaggerations to make it more appealing than it already was.

Maybe everything in the Bible is literal, but right now, I can't believe that 100%

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HordeKing1

01-12-2002, 02:16 PM

VEGETA - Before begining to address your actual question, we must first ascertain if the underlying assumptions behind it are valid. You begin "If god created life as we know it, who created God?" That's a pretty big if. Moreover, you include the caveat "as we know it," in your question. Do you mean to imply that life we are unfamiliar with were not created by god?

We just do not know what was present if anything before the existence of the universe. Many physicists now argue that the universe has always existed. This is certainly at least as valid a concept as the existence of a god.

Furthermore, as I'm sure you're aware, the universe, much like my waistline, is expanding. What is it expanding into? What is it replacing? What was there before it got there? We just do not know the answers at present, but we will eventually. Remember that at one point we did not know that the world was round, or that light travels as both a particle and a wave.

Of course you are entitlted to your belief Vegetta, but have you considered how much of this belief was indoctrination by parents or religious figures or even friends?

I think it was Arthur C. Clarke who wrote that "technology, if sufficiently advanced from ours is indistinguishable from magic."

You refer to "miracles." It's a nice fantasy but there has never been any doucmented miracles, other than people's willingness to accept the incredulous as faith.

You hit the nail on the head when you asked "Were we assured that there is life after death to make us less afraid of death?" Yes. That's a big part of it. More important is religions role in social control and generating revenue.

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HordeKing1

01-12-2002, 02:31 PM

Se7ev - You wrote "as finite beings, we can't fully grasp the infinite." That bit of sophistry, or some variation of it is used by all religions. 100 years ago, man couldn't grasp the existence of portable computers. Today we accept them as routine. We are an incredibly young species - 100,000-125,000 years old. Our knowledge and understanding of the world, has increased exponentially since the industrial revolution. It will continue to do so. We will eventually understand the concept of infinity, as well as much more complex questions.

"[God] Beyond every law of silence"? Ridiculous! The greatest chess player in the world is not man but a computer. We already make replacement limbs that mimic the function of our own. Certainly within our lifetime, we will see artificial limbs superior in every way to our original equipment. Eventually, the computer or more realistically an AI will be wedded to these artificial limbs and we'll have created a being more advanced than we are.

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HordeKing1

01-12-2002, 02:45 PM

CYYYFYYY - Exactly. But you won't endear yourself to theists by this question.

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HordeKing1

01-12-2002, 02:59 PM

REESHY - When I was younger I accepted God and worshiped him. I couldn't understand how anyone could not believe in god. One day I awoke older and wiser and decided that my faith wasn't based on independent thought or belief, but rather the indoctrination of my youth. I decided to explore my beliefs and their validity. After all, any system of belief must be able to stand up to scrutiny or it isn't worth much at all. Well, as you know I found that the idea of god was worse than silly, it was a means of social control, a means of keeping the peasants content, a means of explaining what primitive man could not understand, and a type of wish fulfillment.

Since September 11, 2001, I have become much more critical of religions. What was the motivation of the terrorists? Religious beliefs. Kill the infidels. And religious hatred and massacre isn't exclusively the domain of Moslems. Christianity is full of events like this as well.

You wrote, "We have a thing called free will." I agree, but by definition, only those who do not believe that god is NOT omnipotent can share this idea. An omnipotent being is just that - omnipotent. He or She can do anything, know everything, think everything and is aware of events in the past, present and future. Indeed, for an omnipotent being, there is no space-time restriction so the very idea of past, present and future are meaningless. An omnipotent being knows in advance how you will respond to any situation - if he doesn't he's not omnipotent. Since your actions are all known in advance, it's akin to a movie being watched on videotape. No matter how often you rewind, the character's actions will never change. An omnipotent being by definition would have the videotaped equivalent of our lives on video. You cannot change from what an omnipotent being knows you will do. Thus free will to those who believe in an omnipotent god is not possible.

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HordeKing1

01-12-2002, 03:17 PM

NYDRAGONS80 - The human race is not a freak accident. For all intents and purposes the universe is infinite. In any infinite scenario, the existence of any possible outcome, including life, is not just possible; it's a statistical certainty.

How could you accept the possibility that a god created life and not the possibility that life arose independently? If you don't question your beliefs it's easy, you just turn a deaf ear and blind eye to all possibilities except those that agree with your perspective.

You wrote, "If religion is a creation of man, what did man do before it?" Before man had a need to create religions, he first had to become intelligent enough to question his origin or place in the universe. Neanderthals had religious superstitions, but we know that Neanderthals were evolutionary dead ends and not our ancestors. I'm pretty sure that even Homo erectus, our immediate ancestors didn't have religion.

You wrote, "I have witnessed miracles." Forgive my skepticism but there are no such things as the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus, god, or miracles. Perhaps you witnessed something you didn't understand. Perhaps you saw something wondrous. But there is a clear distinction b/w wondrous and miraculous. The former is based upon reality the later is not.

You wrote, "God has cured cancer, has science?" This may well be the "miracle" you're referring to. In reality, the opposite is true. Science has cured cancer and all other manners of disease. Even assuming that god exists, there has yet to be one documented case of god healing anyone. Don't you find it interesting that until medicine was sufficiently advanced, "God" caused almost everyone to die before 40? After the advent of modern medicine, "God" must have decided to cure everyone until around 75 or later. Lol.

When humanity finally puts aside the need for fictive invisible man in the sky to absolve us of responsibility for our actions, our species just might have a chance of surviving.

Finally, God never existed, as such, Nietzsche's famous quote (taken out of context) aside, he could not have died.)

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gone

01-12-2002, 04:44 PM

i personally am torn on the subject. i believe there is a something a higher power if you will.. but what it is im afraid to say.. cause what if im wrong? i think mostly along the lines of wiccan cause i think that nature isnt held in the regard it should be... and what about reincarnation... that sounds really cool too... i dunno but i really think there is something

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legroommusic

01-13-2002, 07:03 PM

You humans are so linear. God steps in and out of eternity all the time. don't you see that?

i got kicked out of my band, so now i'm stuck with the name

Se7en

01-13-2002, 07:23 PM

As usual, it's pretty much impossible to have a discussion on this site about religion.

Hell, the subject was just a theological one, and this STILL degenerated into a "You're wrong, there is a God" / "You're wrong, there is no God" debate.

We're *supposed* to be open-minded here, RIGHT?

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Thank you, WWFallon! You are my Olympic Hero!

"Being a bastard WORKS."
--Spider Jerusalem

FiveB247

01-13-2002, 07:34 PM

I'm no big believer in religion or spirtuality, but I'd like to believe there's more to life then just the things we see and feel on earth and stuff. But at the same time, i'm a rational, scientific minded person and i think that i don't believe in god...yet maybe some sort of god exists and wouldn't hold it against a person to question life and such. That's free will in a humanistic society. We can't question what we don not know of, therefore I'm very open minded. Yet it's very devout and religious people who accept for word what the bible and old, human written scriptures say. The fact is, the more religious a person is, the more close minded that person is. And in my mind, thats where religion lacks positive and enhancing qualities.

legroommusic

01-13-2002, 07:40 PM

what? Got a problem with Jesus?

i got kicked out of my band, so now i'm stuck with the name

Pootertoot

01-13-2002, 09:35 PM

Seven, I thought HordeKing was pretty civil about the matter.

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TheGameHHH

01-13-2002, 10:17 PM

Wow, this is all pretty new to me, I just thought HordeKing was God. You mean there might be another being that also has all the answers?

IT'S TIME TO PLAY THE GAME-AHHH!

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vegeta

01-14-2002, 03:17 AM

I just saw Contact for the first time and I have to change my desires now. I thought that one day it might be possible to build a spacecraft that could go to "Planet Heaven" as I call it, but I think that if a human ever got evidence that god exists, that person would just be looked at as a nut.

Adam and Eve really screwed us! I would have loved to hang with god. We'd borrow CDs from eachother and I'd come by his apartment and borrow some sugar. But now, we're all trapped on this crumbling planet and the world f'n sucks compared to how it was in the beginning.

I just wish I had a time machine like that HG Wells guy wrote about.

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IkeaBoy

01-14-2002, 01:30 PM

Poot, no matter how "civil" one is in describing their side, people with extreme beliefs will still get angry if someone presents the opposite view. I'm not saying this against Se7en, it's essentially everyone.

[/quote]
"My review of 2001 the year is the same as my review of 2001: A Space Odyssey- overlong, hard to follow, and only enjoyable if you're really really stoned." - Lewis Black
"and I spent 14 years as a nuke"- <a href="http://www.capalert.com">CAPALERT</a> Guy on Harry Potter- Reviews, Jesus Style

vegeta

01-14-2002, 01:45 PM

Well, all I know is that after my death, I want my soul- if there is such a thing- to go somewhere other than in the box i'll be buried in. I just hope that there's a life after this imperfect one.

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Se7en

01-15-2002, 03:08 PM

It's not that I'm upset with Horde King for having a different point of view on the matter. There's only about a billion different doctrines and deviations in Christianity alone. It's unavoidable to meet someone who has a different perspective as your own.

The problem I have is that, if one is going to seriously discuss matters of religion, than it helps to have a bit of respect for the material in question or at least the individuals who are discussing it.

I really don't perceive Horde King as having ANY respect for religion, or those of us here who practice it. This thread started as a discussion about a theological question, and then became Horde King's explanation as to why we Christians are dead wrong in our beliefs. If he wants to present those beliefs, it's fine, but that wasn't the purpose of the thread in the first place.

"A man is willing to die for the one who appreciates him."
- Confucius

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"Being a bastard WORKS."
--Spider Jerusalem

HordeKing1

01-15-2002, 06:36 PM

LEGROOMMUSIC - Eternity encompasse the totality of everything. If god is eternal as some religions posit, how was he able to create a universe in an area where he already existed. Wouldn't the universe displace some aspect of god?

Along these lines, consider this. How can anyone god or not, step into and out of everything? If it's "everything" there can be nothing besides it.

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MANdrew

01-18-2002, 04:13 PM

I have to preface this by saying that I agree whole-heartedly with se7en about the degeneration of this topic into a meaningless back and forth. Nevertheless, I feel obligated to reply. As I read HK's posts, I considered counter-attacking each of his assaults, but his "lol" at the end of a sentence in one of the replies makes it very obvious it would fall on deaf ears and a hardened heart. Instead, I'm choosing one presumption he made to reply to. Even assuming that god exists, there has yet to be one documented case of god healing anyone.
It might not be documented, but I assure you the story that follows is for real. There is a girl a few years younger than me who goes to high school a few towns over from me. A few years ago she contracted some kind of disease that affected her muscles in a way that they degenerated to the point where she had gone from a once successful athlete to being bedridden. No doctor or scientist could find a reason for her failing health, and not surprisingly, no cure either. After months of pain and suffering a fear, she went to see what I guess could be considered a "faith healer" (I don't know the guy's actual title). They prayed together for a while, with many other people looking to be healed and eventually he picked her out of the group and told her she would walk again by the end of the night. Her faith and her prayers, not science, not technology, allowed her to get up and walk that night. She's back to playing soccer again now and no one, besides those of us who do believe, can fathom a reason why. I don't tell this story to attempt to prove anyone wrong, only to maybe loosen the grip cynicism has taken on some of you.

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HordeKing1

01-18-2002, 09:27 PM

MANDREW - You cannot respond to my points, because there is no satisfactory answer. The best philosophers have been trying to reconcile the idea of an omnipotent god with the idea of free will. They cannot. It's even more compelling than the question, can god make a rock he can't lift. There is no answer there either. But a person such as yourself who has a firm lock on the "truth" should be able to convince a "cold hearted" sinner like myself. Why not try. Or is the power of the Dark Lord to strong. LMAO.

As for the "miracles" there are many cases of spontaneous remissions. Just becuase you don't understand something doesn't mean you can ascribe the cause to god.

What am I saying? Homo sapiens have been doing that since the origin of the species. Oh, but I forgot, god created us whole and we did not evolve from "lesser animals."

I think we should all get together for a big-ass party and accuse someone of being a witch in cahoots with satan. A few witch burnings would put this country right! While we're at it why not get rid of those godless commies. Put them on the rack inquisition style until they repent their sins. Then we can kill them. God sure loves the screams of his creatures doesn't he?

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vegeta

01-19-2002, 01:42 PM

The question of whether or not God exists is not the question I posed. The concept of always existing is what we're talking about.

You don't have to defend your faith just because we have theories about what God is and how he operates.

The Bible is a great book, and as a great book, it leaves you asking questions.

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Death Metal Moe

01-19-2002, 06:42 PM

I HOPW there is a God, cause I want to Kick him in the NUTS!

But seriously, there is no God. It's very self important of us to assume there's some reason we're here, or there just HAS to be a creator. There is NOT, and we're all heading for the biggest joke in the universe: Oblivion.

sleep tight.

ALL HAIL DEATH

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HordeKing1

01-20-2002, 02:46 PM

VEGETA - You raised the concept particularly about god existing eternally.

Before the philisophical concept of eternal existence can be addressed, the basic assumption of the question - namely if there is a god must be discussed. If there's no god, he/she/they couldn't have existed forever!

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NewYorkDragons80

01-20-2002, 03:10 PM

I think we should all get together for a big-ass party and accuse someone of being a witch in cahoots with satan. A few witch burnings would put this country right! While we're at it why not get rid of those godless commies. Put them on the rack inquisition style until they repent their sins. Then we can kill them. God sure loves the screams of his creatures doesn't he?
Or we could have a big-ass party where the atheists of the board mimic the Nazis and Communists who didn't believe in God. They can starve the theists of the board. If the theists don't die fast enough, they can force the theists into gas chambers. Or the Nazis and Communists could do the "Humane" thing and sentence the theists to life in prison simply because they started a monastery or tried to pray openly.

Obviously, HK attempted to point out the atrocities commited by people during Witch Trials. I simply showed that each side is capable of some pretty horendous shit.

Furthermore, Hordeking tried to say that all religions (or at least Christians) are guilty of murder. Imagine the uproar if I blamed an Algerian today for his ancestors enslaving Americans in the 1700's. That would be something. Blame the guilty for the crimes they commit, not their children's children's children.

"THOSE BASTARDS"
-Norman Schwartzkoff

"May God bless us in this trial, comfort us, strengthen our resolve, and make our justice as terrible and certain as His."
-Senator John McCain

"Neitzche is dead"
-God

Se7en

01-20-2002, 07:15 PM

I just find it interesting that Horde King responded to everyone to Vegeta, and Mandrew, and legroome, but when I say I feel he has NO respect for those who believe in a religion / god, I'm met with nothing but silence.

Is it the truth or not? I mean, unless I'm mistaken, it seems that Fez believes in a religion / God. If that is the case, do you think he's a misguided fool like the rest of us?

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NewYorkDragons80

01-20-2002, 07:46 PM

Se7en, it's clear that we agree on religion. However, does it really matter what Ron & Fez's stance is?

"THOSE BASTARDS"
-Norman Schwartzkoff

"May God bless us in this trial, comfort us, strengthen our resolve, and make our justice as terrible and certain as His."
-Senator John McCain

"Neitzche is dead"
-God

HordeKing1

01-20-2002, 08:07 PM

NYDRAGON - Read your history books. Every religion has a bloody history filled with pain and suffering and attempts to kill anyone who didn't share their beliefs. I don't know why you're so hung up on christianity. It's no more or less plausable than worshiping a rock.

I thought by now everyone has read the vatican papers showing that Hitler was a devout Christian. There is even indication that he consulted with the pope (the horrifically misnamed "pious") before begining his mass murders. Your comparisson has no validity.

You also erred by saying that I blame all religions for their butchery in the name of god. Of course I do. You don't seem to understand though that butchery in the name of religion continues to this day and will continue until people outgrow their tribal superstitions dividing the human race.

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HordeKing1

01-20-2002, 08:11 PM

SE7EN - I'm sorry if you feel slighted. I wasn't ignoring your question, I felt a stronger need to reply to the other posts and I forgot yours.

I'll answer you now, although I've said this many times before. You know I'm an atheist. I cannot understand how the great hoax of religion continues to be perpetrated among so many otherwise intelligent people.

You ask if I respect people with religious beliefs. Religion is but one of thousands of unique traits that makes up the sum totality of a person. Religion isn't a factor in determining whether I respect someone with one important exception. Anyone from any faith who tries to impose their beliefs on everyone, should be drawn and quartered. The anti-abortion nutcases for example.

People like that I truly despise. But it's not limited to religion. Live and let live.

Does religion have any value beyond social control, primitive scientific theories and the like? Yes it does. Some people are able to convince themselves that god(s) exist and as such are able to get comfort from him/her/it/them. That's very powerful and it's one reason it's easier to believe than not believe. In medicine, the phenomeonon of a belief in something having an actual effect is called the Placebo Effect.

If believing in god gives a particularly impressionable person comfort, more power to them.

Of course, even placebos can have harmful side effects and belief in god is no different.

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NewYorkDragons80

01-20-2002, 08:22 PM

BULLSHIT. If you knew anything about the SS, they were trained not to answer to any higher being but Hitler. In Mein Kampf Hitler called Christianity a lie created by Jews.

Pius saved hundreds of thousands, if not, millions of lives by forging passports for Jews to escape. It was not until a play called "The Deputy" was released that fingers were pointed at Catholics for the holocaust.

Pius declared neutrality to Hitler because he saw what happened to Dutch bishops when they spoke out against him. They were sent to concentration camps just like the Jews. Perhaps you'd like to hear the story of St. Maximillian Kolbe; a Catholic Priest who was sent to a concentration camp. He watched as a young Jewish father was selected to be killed in a concentration camp. Kolbe volunteered to take his place. The guards were especially happy to let Kolbe take his place because priests kept spirits high in the camps. He was not a token, either. There were thousands of Polish and Dutch priests killed.

HK, I know you didn't read the story I just posted, but rest assured Pius had nothing to do with the holocaust. Catholics have done some awful things in the past, but this was not one of them. Hitler was a player for your team.

"THOSE BASTARDS"
-Norman Schwartzkoff

"May God bless us in this trial, comfort us, strengthen our resolve, and make our justice as terrible and certain as His."
-Senator John McCain

"Neitzche is dead"
-God

Se7en

01-20-2002, 08:33 PM

Horde King - thank you for answering me. Although I still feel that you seem to be a bit irrational concerning religion and those who practice it. I guess I just don't quite understand the intensity of your hostility towards religion / its practitioners. The VAST majority of my friends are atheists (and the rest are largely agnostics), and quite a few of them don't exactly have warm feelings about religion themselves, but still I have yet to meet an atheist such as yourself who is just so vehemently against all things spiritual.

Dragon, I wasn't trying to drag Ron and Fez into this, I just mentioned Fez's apparent beliefs to question whether or not the Horde King would feel so negatively against even Fez for his beliefs. You're right, though, it's best to just leave their names out of this. Sorry about that.

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WWFallon = YOUR Emperor of Kings!

"Being a bastard WORKS."
--Spider Jerusalem

NewYorkDragons80

01-20-2002, 08:35 PM

Anyone from any faith who tries to impose their beliefs on everyone, should be drawn and quartered.
Anyone who posts in this thread is guilty of that. HK, what were you trying to do when you sent the link to a website of atheist quotes? Were you trying to impose atheism on me??? Because if you weren't, I'd love to know what you were doing.

"THOSE BASTARDS"
-Norman Schwartzkoff

"May God bless us in this trial, comfort us, strengthen our resolve, and make our justice as terrible and certain as His."
-Senator John McCain

"Neitzche is dead"
-God

HordeKing1

01-20-2002, 08:47 PM

NYDRAGON:

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

- Adolph Hitler, 1922 speech

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter."

- Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf.

"We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out".

Adolph Hitler, speech

"For their interests [the Church's] cannot fail to coincide with ours [the National Socialists] alike in our fight against the symptoms of degeneracy in the world of to-day, in our fight against a Bolshevist culture, against atheistic movement, against criminality, and in our struggle for a consciousness of a community in our national life".

Adolph Hitler, speech.

For more quotes on the sanctity of christianity and the horrors of atheism from this god fearing man, I recomend The Speeches of Adolph Hitler, Oxford University Press, 1942.

Giving you an atheist link hardly imposes my will on you. It encourages you think for yourself and to step away from your indoctrination. However, believe what you want, of course. It's your perogative. I object to the religious who belive they have the right to tell others what to do. If they want to go off and pray to a tree somewhere that's fine, just don't invovle me.

http://members.aol.com/rnfpantera/hking2

FUNKMAN

01-20-2002, 09:06 PM

It's one of the most difficult questions...
Like the chicken/egg question...
I have to admit that I don't think I'll ever obtain 100% faith in God...
Theres a theory about existence as we know it being = to energy or electricity. When you die your energy enters the atmosphere and gets cycled into something else...
All I know is if I get the chance to meet God, hopefully he'll be able to answer a ton of questions...

<img src="http://w3.one.net/~wap/GFR_WEB/GFR_ALBUMS/GRAPHICS/coverCloserToHome.jpg">

legroommusic

01-20-2002, 09:24 PM

Jesus died so you could hang with God. Most religions are going to point you to some priest, saint or amount of work that you'll have to do to get to God. If you put your trust in Jesus, you won't need any of that. Adam and Eve may have started this mess, but Jesus dropped the charges.

i got kicked out of my band, so now i'm stuck with the name

NewYorkDragons80

01-20-2002, 09:33 PM

Just as I predicted, Hordeking did not read the story.

Those speeches were Hitler's ways of getting into the good graces of the people. They were made before he was ruler of Germany. I suppose these comments would make him the first politician in the history of humaity to ever lie. :)

Hitler was also a man of great contradiction. He touted a pure Aryan race, but when the tide of the war shifted to the Allies, he began to accept Poles who were Blond-haired and blue-eyed.

What Hitler said still does not change the fact that Christians were sent to concentration camps. It also doesn't prove he collaborated with Pius, which is a filthy lie.

"THOSE BASTARDS"
-Norman Schwarzkopf

"May God bless us in this trial, comfort us, strengthen our resolve, and make our justice as terrible and certain as His."
-Senator John McCain

"Neitzche is dead"
-God

NewYorkDragons80

01-20-2002, 09:41 PM

LG, I wholeheartedly agree, but HK turns a deaf ear to all that we say.

He finds fiendish people that were alleged theists and blames us for the crimes they commited.

Just because someone who believed in God was evil (Though I still think Hitler was an atheist) does not mean there is no God.

One of my favorite quotes that can be applied to religion and those who exploit it is from "A Christmas Carol." It is from the Ghost of Christmas Present:

"There are some upon this earth of yours, who claim to know us, and who do their deeds of passion, pride, ill-will, hatred, envy, bigotry, and selfishness in our name; who are as strange to us and all our kith and kin, as if they had never lived. Remember that, and charge their doings on themselves, not us."

"THOSE BASTARDS"
-Norman Schwarzkopf

"May God bless us in this trial, comfort us, strengthen our resolve, and make our justice as terrible and certain as His."
-Senator John McCain

"Neitzche is dead"
-God

This message was edited by NewYorkDragons80 on 1-21-02 @ 1:49 AM

FiveB247

01-20-2002, 09:57 PM

Ok..this post is hitting rock bottom...how did Hitler some how get involved in a god conversation and argument?
Horde King...I actually I agree with you about something..I'm not a religious person....but i'll be damned if people assumed jesus died for me?! I don't know him nor do i care to. Anyone who thinks its possible for a human to walk on water...well i've got a bridge to sell. And another thing...If so many people are religious and believe in a god...how come when someone says that they can talk to god or hear god...then that person is crazy? But regardless of all this...if there is a god..which i don't think so...I hear he's supposed to be forgiving or some crap...so Horde King..we'll be ok anyways. right?

http://wwfallon.homestead.com/files/RFnetFiveB247.JPG

Ixia Naar

01-20-2002, 10:31 PM

HK, I know you didn't read the story I just posted, but rest assured Pius had nothing to do with the holocaust. Catholics have done some awful things in the past, but this was not one of them. Hitler was a player for your team.
This was from NY Dragon
( sorry i don't know how to get the quote up)

I do not believe in any higher power and to say hitler was on MY TEAM because he didn't either is like blaming every muslim for the 9/11 attacks. Why bother to sort out facts when it's so much eaiser to lump things together. Any respect i might have had for you and any thought that your argument held any water dosen't exist (kinda like i feel about YOUR god.)

Whats with all this talk about there being intelegent life on this planet. Has anyone REALLY looked around and seen what we've done to this planet and to each other. if you have can you truely still have the aduacity to call us intelegent life!!!!!! yes there are some of us who are intelegent but is still a far far far cry from having intelegent life on this planet.

This message was edited by Ixia Naar on 1-21-02 @ 2:45 AM

NewYorkDragons80

01-20-2002, 10:44 PM

Ixa, that's exactly what makes the Hordeking's arguments so absurd. As a theist, I was blamed for crimes they commited. In turn, I blamed Hordeking for crimes committed by atheists.

"THOSE BASTARDS"
-Norman Schwarzkopf

"May God bless us in this trial, comfort us, strengthen our resolve, and make our justice as terrible and certain as His."
-Senator John McCain

"Neitzche is dead"
-God

Ixia Naar

01-20-2002, 11:19 PM

stupid f..king explorer froze and fked up my reply that was well thought out and actually well writen (i do not write{type} well at all) So come friday i wanna give an fu to the board itself ( not the members) for fing up the post

Ixia Naar

01-20-2002, 11:31 PM

I would just like to reiterate there is no inteligent life on this planet. Correct spellings brought to you by Webster's New World Dictionary. Thank You

HordeKing1

01-21-2002, 12:09 AM

FUNKMAN - Are you talking about conservation of energy? One of the laws of thermodynamics is that the amount of energy in the universe remains constant. The amount of usable energy constantly decreases hence no perpetual motion machines.

http://members.aol.com/rnfpantera/hking2

HordeKing1

01-21-2002, 12:09 AM

LEGROOMMUSIC - Why not put your trust in yourself? Why rely upon anything else? It's a good way to avoid ultimate liability, that's why.

http://members.aol.com/rnfpantera/hking2

HordeKing1

01-21-2002, 12:11 AM

NYDRAGON - It's nice that you finally concede that Hitler used the religion of Christianity for his own ends. You seem to find great import that Hitler killed some Christians. He did but it's irrelevant. He killed lots of people. The Christians killed weren't killed b/c they were Christian. Most people living in Nazi Germany were Christian and they willfully, even gleefully participated in killing Jews and other "undesirables." Your story is just that - a story - a work of fiction also known as revisionist history.

Now regarding pope pious XII, (a Monster by any account) the current pope (John Paul) apologized recently for Pious' shameful silent acquiescence to Hitler's extermination program. The pope also apologized for the church's tradition of anti-Semitism and persecution of Jews. Many have criticized the pope because his apology made no reference to the decade long study by Vatican and Israeli officials regarding the extent of pious' ACTIVE role during the holocaust. At best the guy is a monster for not speaking up against Hitler. At worst he gave Hitler the blessing of the church. Evil cannot flourish without men like "pious."

And you COMPLETELY missed the boat again so I'll repeat this. I'm not blaming YOU in particular for anything. The people who acted improperly take all the blame. Open your eyes. We are not talking ancient history, but rather events that are going on in the world right now. You see people being tortured, killed, or made to suffer by someone who believes in a god different from theirs. Whatever placebo benefits religions have, the cloak of moral superiority and authority that its practitioners assume causes them to hate and kill in gods name. This far outweighs any benefit religion can bring. If you personally don't hate those with a different or no god pat yourself on the back. Religion is the direct cause of much misery in the world - misery imposed on other people. If you are not in that group, (and I don't believe you are) you still cannot possibly argue that religious belief doesn't cause strife.

As for exploiting religion in your Christmas Carol quote, look no further than religious leaders and you have the main perpetrators of this exploitation.

The foolishness of this whole discussion is that you took offense at my criticism of all religions. Earlier I asked why you personalized my comments to Christianity? You didn't reply to that b/c my comments were not directed towards Christians, Jews, Moslems, Buddhists, etc. My comments are about all religions in general. I never blamed you or anyone else for the actions of others. Now why did you take it that way? Are you particularly sensitive to religious discussion?

http://members.aol.com/rnfpantera/hking2

HordeKing1

01-21-2002, 12:12 AM

FIVEB247 - "Nazis and commies" were brought into the discussion by NYDRAGON who sought to use them to illustrate that atheists are just as bad as theists. He took my views on religious belief personally and for some reason apparently thought I was focused on the silliness of Christianity as opposed to the silliness of all religions. My argument is to believe what you want, and do what you want, just leave me out of it. If only the theists could respect a worldview aside from their own. Not bloody likely to happen in our lifetime, but I'm convinced that if we survive as a species, eventually we'll grow out of the need for religions and other archaic concepts.

I'm sure the all-forgiving god(s) will forgive the atheists who doubt his/her/their existence. Probably much easier than those who believed in god and worshiped the wrong ones. Since the majority of the world is Moslem, playing percentages non-Moslems should convert. Then again the gods of the druids, and early polytheistic religions were around much longer than the religions of the modern world. Just to be safe, it might be a good idea to start praying to the rock that created the universe. Remember though, no pictures of the rock - god is camera shy.

http://members.aol.com/rnfpantera/hking2

HordeKing1

01-21-2002, 12:14 AM

IXIA NAAR - I'm sorry but your post is mostly incomprehensible. It seems though that you're laboring under the same false impression as NYDRAGON. My position is simple. Go on believing whatever makes you happy. Just don't involve anyone other than yourself in your beliefs. And don't be afraid to question your values and beliefs. It's the only way to grow as a person.

As to 9/11, surely you're not denying that the murder of nearly 4000 people was directly caused by the wacky religious beliefs of the terrorists? Or are you?

http://members.aol.com/rnfpantera/hking2

NewYorkDragons80

01-21-2002, 07:09 AM

We may never know what the cause of 9/11 was. In my opinion, it was simply out of hatred for America. Keep in mind that the family of one of the hijackers said he was not religious. This is about land, not religion. Do you think in Northern Ireland it's about who goes to what church? No. It's because of the preferential treatment Protestants are given. The situation of Catholics in Ireland is very similar to blacks in the US.

You are simply being ignorant by calling the story of St. Maximillian Kolbe a work of fiction. (By the way he started a monastery in Nagasaki that miraculously remained completely intact when Little Boy was dropped.) The man whose life he saved was at his canonization ceremony. One of the most frustrating things about you is that you refuse to listen. This could've happened in your backyard and you would still deny it ever happened. Of course I can never prove it happened, but I can never prove that anyhting is real. By that token, anything can be an illusion.

Let's say on September 11th, God reached down and caught the planes before they crashed. There would still be people like you who would say it never happened. No matter if there is a mountain of evidence that God does exist, you rely on a book to dictate how you will live. Just like any Biblical fundamentalist. There is nothing separating you.

"THOSE BASTARDS"
-Norman Schwarzkopf

"May God bless us in this trial, comfort us, strengthen our resolve, and make our justice as terrible and certain as His."
-Senator John McCain

"Neitzche is dead"
-God

legroommusic

01-21-2002, 11:15 AM

If there's a problem, there's nothing wrong with going to God. I'm not the holiest person around, but I know well enough to say that I fuck up, I'm human and I need help. There are things and events in this universe that I have no control over, But I know enough that thtere is someone who can take care of that. You may not believe it, but there are millions of people who'll testify to it.

I'll admit there are people who are very self empowered. I probably won't win an arguement on an intellectual level. I just know that there's a God to turn to whenever I need help.

i got kicked out of my band, so now i'm stuck with the name

Pootertoot

01-21-2002, 03:34 PM

This is quite the onslaught. It's quite disgusting how many of you have chosen to carry yourselves over the course of this discussion. If you're really that firm in your convictions, if you're REALLY that convinced that what you believe is right and true, and your faith is a rock, then why the fuck would you attack someone of the same mindset just because they don't hold the same beliefs as you? I'm not saying this mindset is a good one, it's not, having a closed mind never helped anyone, but it's utterly laughable how some of you have chosen to do this very thing...

A few quick points, as I'm not at the top of my game today...

-Organized Religion is indisputably linked with atrocity, wherever you look. It's not a case of blaming the individual, it's blaming the collective...the Catholic Church alone has so much in its vile history that it would make your head spin, and the madness hasn't stopped...have you read about the new procedures dealing with child molestation within the church, straight down from the Vatican?

There's nothing inherently wrong with religious belief (except for its falsehood, lol), it's how one uses that belief in their interaction with others.

-Mandrew, tell that to the thousands of people that die young, die in pain, die of an incurable disease every day. About two years after I had first became an atheist, I finally revealed it to a devout friend of mine. To prove there is a god, he used the example that his grandfather had a heart attack and was near death in the hospital. Every day his family prayed for him, masses were said, and the only reason he survived was GOD. I brought up the fact that many years before, the same situation happened with my grandmother, except that she died quite painfully. His reaction, "Well, she was around the age that people die." God's got some great PR, he can get out of anything!

Let's say on September 11th, God reached down and caught the planes before they crashed. There would still be people like you who would say it never happened"

After I began this criticizing people for their level of discourse, let me say...this is the most retarded thing I've ever read. If God's hand reached out of the sky and stopped the planes on September 11th, then paint me red, slap me and call me Suzie. I'd be building the bastard shrines left and right. BUT HE DIDN'T. God has not done a single measurable, quantifiable thing, and being an omnipotent being, he damn well is capable of it.

No matter if there is a mountain of evidence that God does exist, you rely on a book to dictate how you will live

GIVE ME ONE PIECE OF EVIDENCE. I will change my mind ON THE SPOT.

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Censored, Because I'm a Responsible Moderator, who fucks children in the ass.

Se7en

01-21-2002, 07:40 PM

Pootertoot - I really have no problem with people having a dissenting opinion. It's IMPOSSIBLE to meet someone who has EXACTLY the same views as you do, to the letter. In Horde King's case, I really don't care if he's an atheist.

But there is a matter of respect. I respect his views, even if I may occasionally disagree with them, but it doesn't seem to me as if he respects mine (or others)...at all. And that would be fine, IF I had done something overt to make him disrespect my beliefs. But with him, it seems as if the only overt thing that I've done is actually admit that I have religious beliefs. And since I do, I must be a moron...or at least, that's the implication I get from him. It's a bit disconcerting, but whatever. It's not as if I've never experienced that attitude before, it's just somewhat discomforting to see a man like Horde King, who is generally a very compassionate and caring individual, seem so eager to spew venom, anger, and some very brutal cynicism over this topic. I guess it's just that...I would have hoped that someone like him would be a bit more open-minded. Not in the sense that he would be willing to share religious beliefs, or anything like that, but to at least show some respect for those with a differing p.o.v. than himself. But I sense NOTHING of the sort. And that kind of bothers me, because I respect him, and I get NOTHING back.

BTW, even though in my own personal life I have deep religious beliefs, I pretty much agree with you on organized religion. I went to several churchs over the years, and saw gross hypocrisy at each of them.

The difference is, I didn't use those experiences to try and show the fallibility of the religion itself. I've merely kept my own beliefs, and my own counsel on them.

<img border="0" src="http://Se7enRFNet.homestead.com/files/RFnetSe7en2.jpg" width="300" height="100">

WWFallon = YOUR Emperor of Kings!

"Being a bastard WORKS."
--Spider Jerusalem

HordeKing1

01-21-2002, 08:42 PM

POOTERTOOT - Well said albiet light on the critique.

SE7EN - Very simple. You just don't get that this is a discussion. As such I can give my opinion that religion is bullshit, and you can give your opinion of incredulousness that someone doesn't recognize the existence of god. As I've said many times before, I'm not trying to get you to be an atheist. I could care less what you or anyone else chooses to believe. I do care about discussing it, and hearing your rationality to concepts that I once cherished and now can't fathom how it took me so long to ask the questions that show religion to be a farce.

I enjoy debate and different opinions, something that you can't seem to understand. I suspect that it's due to the narrow range of acceptable thoughts that religions allow the faithfull. (If you don't think outside the box, you're less likely to see the internal inconsistencies.)

I know that our discussion won't make you an atheist just as you know that it won't make me a believer. The fun part is deconstructing the others views. From the replies to this thread it is painfuly obvious that religious ideas that are challenged are responded to in anger, or without addressing the issues. Even the most faithful know that there are questions about the contradictions etc of religion that they cannot answer.

Ultimately it comes down to faith. Either you believe despite the absence of proof or you don't.

I choose to follow the principles of Occams Razor.

Although POOTERTOOT remarked about God plucking the planes out of the sky on 9/11, I have to add, that I find that post the most difficult to comprehend. Anyone (yes even atheists) would belivie in God if offered proof positive. There is no proof and never has been.

And the religious motivations of the fanatics who murdered thousands of people on 9/11 are unquestionable.

http://members.aol.com/rnfpantera/hking2

Pootertoot

01-21-2002, 09:27 PM

Sorry, HK, I did say I wasn't at the top of my game. I've been very tired as of late.

Se7en-Respect the believer, not the belief.

If you met a man that believed that every night a three-headed flaming purple mouse came to him and revealed the secrets of the universe, would you respect his belief?

Sometimes a belief is just silly. Just because you hold that belief dear and consider it unalienable truth doesn't mean we hold it in the same reverence. However, if we met you in person, we'd treat you with the utmost respect. Well, I'll touch you in your dark and stinky, but ask anyone who's met HK, he's one of the nicest, most personable guys you'll ever meet.

Respect the believer, not the belief, and the world would be a better place.

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Censored, Because I'm a Responsible Moderator, who fucks children in the ass.

vegeta

01-22-2002, 03:43 AM

I guess it's useless to keep telling everyone that this wasn't a thread about religion, but about how Gog has always existed.

Well, since this thread is entitled God, I'll go with it.

Religion, no matter what it is, always has one positive: unity.

When people are sitting together in a church singing together, there is nothing better on the planet.

I don't believe in everything the bible or my pastor says, but I love the idea of people of all walks of life coming together like the great family that we're supposed to be.

If you're an atheist, I don't care. If you are into jesus 24 hours a day and you say your prayers at dinner time and before you go to sleep, I could care less.

I would take an honest, responsible brave atheist as a president over a dishonest crooked christian any day of the week.

I don't care about what you're into. I just care about if you stand on the side of evil or good.

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"You don't know who I am? Fool! Don't make me bitch-slap you!"
</center>

FUNKMAN

01-22-2002, 10:59 PM

quote:/

FUNKMAN - Are you talking about conservation of energy? One of the laws of thermodynamics is that the amount of energy in the universe remains constant. The amount of usable energy constantly decreases hence no perpetual motion machines.

HordeKing,

That's probably it...

Eternal Happiness... How would you know happiness if you did not know about sadness...
Can you be happy if your children or parents are not with you...
Does God know what the future holds... Then what would be the point, he would already know what the results of our existence will be... Whether we turn towards him or not...
As I think about it I would have to say No!
Does he interject into people's lives... Sometimes you hear people say after a tragic accident, This Was God's Plan, or it was his/her time, as if God made the car hit them or the plane crash... I would say not...

Just a few of my questions and Thanks for your earlier response!

FUNKMAN

<img src="http://www.grandfunkrailroad.com/images/medfinger.gif">

This message was edited by FUNKMAN on 1-23-02 @ 3:09 AM

vegeta

01-23-2002, 03:21 AM

That's something else that disturbs me about God:

WHy do we have to suffer and watch innnocent people die just because our greeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat grandparents were doing something naughty? Adam and Eve screwed up, nad now we have to pay for it? Now that's totally unfair.

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HordeKing1

01-23-2002, 11:05 PM

VEGETA - Religion may serve to unify people of the same faith, but it is perhaps the greatest source of division among the human race. The unity when achieved is small scale. The discord and division is large scale.

http://members.aol.com/rnfpantera/hking2

CovDiesel

01-25-2002, 09:00 PM

I know I joke a lot on this board, but this is really a belief of mine.

God exists.

The fact of the matter is that you can not begin to explain the origin of the "being" with the nomer of God. When it comes to the question of "How did God come about?"

I'm not saying you should ignore the impulse to question... But I am saying that in order to accept the presence of God, this question must go unanswered.

Now, I believe in Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, so the God I pray to, is a lot like water... 3 states of being, yet one God.

His origin I do not know... and I do wonder sometimes, but I know that since I was placed here, my desire to make the world a better more peaceful place is a result of my knowledge of God in my life.

So, in the end... to me anyway.. it doesn't matter how God came to be because I can attempt to answer it, but I won't know until I walk next to him in the Kingdom of Heaven and ask him... but I do know that if I can be better than I was 5 minutes ago continuously, without rest, my job as a follower of God has been well served.

<IMG SRC="http://members.aol.com/dxixrxt/covpigs.jpg">

FUNKMAN

01-25-2002, 09:13 PM

CovDiesel,

Well Said...

<img src="http://www.grandfunkrailroad.com/covers/survival.gif">

CovDiesel

01-25-2002, 10:10 PM

And...

I would venture to say that as I have always thought, anyone who believes in a Loving, Caring God can not shun anyone else on the planet... not Gays, not men, not women, not Muslims, not Christians, not Buddhists, not Jews, not athiests.

Here's the deal HordeKing...

I respect the fact that you question... for the definition of an athiest is one who does not believe in an acting God.

Now, some people say that Religion does harm... to this I would disagree on my own level... let me explain.

Religion harming people only holds true when people interpret their beliefs as the true ones with no tolerance for anyone else's.

To me, Christ taught to be loving. He taught to be accepting. He did say that he was the way to Heaven, but my point is this...

Anyone who calls themself a Christian, which I do, and believes in the Christian God, which I also do... can not condemn anyone and must leave their mind open and their heart along with it... to love and forgive any and all people regardless of their actions.

In no way am I saying to forget... but forgiveness is the only way we can move forward as a global society. Forgiveness breeds love. Love breeds unity. Unity is the ultimate goal.

Whether you believe in God, Allah, the teaching of Buddah, the dieties of the Hindu faith, or the answers of modern science...

I say that to me God exists.

If it doesn't to you and you can live your life as a good man/woman and practice values of forgiveness and love... I would say that is all God asks of us.

Whether you believe or not... in the end... my love for humanity and attempt to create more unity in this world than division fills me with satisfaction... and either God will sort out in the end, or at the very least... by trying a difference.. a ripple... a change for the better will have been made in some lives.

That is to follow God.

Peace, Love, Unity.

at least that's my take. You are welcome to yours.

<IMG SRC="http://members.aol.com/dxixrxt/covbball.jpg">

vegeta

01-26-2002, 02:53 AM

See, now that's another thing that pisses me off!

"You have to wait 'til you get to heaven to get your questions answered" Why can't I have my question's answered now?

God should get his ass down here and have a year long session at the learning annex!

Why do I have to sit here in my own confusion wondering if I'm going to heaven or hell or why so many innocent people die every day?

That's why I question God, because he left us with the rubix cube called life and there's no human on earth who has the solution.

I believe that their had to be a God that created such a complex place as earth with all the complex life in it, but I wonder is he's a man who lives eternally, a being of light without a face or just a brilliant scientist from across the stars...

<center><a href="http://www.animenation.com"><img src="http://thereturnofdarkforces.homestead.com/files/VegetaPunch.jpg" width=150 height=100></a>
 
"You don't know who I am? Fool! Don't make me bitch-slap you!"
</center>

NewYorkDragons80

01-26-2002, 04:05 AM

Hordeking, I agree that it divides people, but I can't think of anything that doesn't.

Since we are talking about religion, I want to know how HK feels about this; It is unconstitutional to teach the Bible in a public school, but California allows the Koran to be taught. Where is the ACLU? I think they suffer from John Lennon syndrome: Religion is evil unless it's practiced in the Eastern Hemisphere.

"THOSE BASTARDS"
-Norman Schwarzkopf

"May God bless us in this trial, comfort us, strengthen our resolve, and make our justice as terrible and certain as His."
-Senator John McCain

"Neitzche is dead"
-God

This message was edited by NewYorkDragons80 on 1-26-02 @ 8:12 AM

HordeKing1

01-26-2002, 08:24 PM

Living by a code of "goodness" is positive, no matter whether the code is of divine origin or man made.

The fact is that despite all the platitudes that religions give to peace, love and understanding, it is not practiced or shown to members outside the club.

Even among members of the same religious groups there is tremendous hatred. (Look at the varous sects of christianity or judaism for example.)

The "good code" that religions preach is not and has never been applied universally to all. Occasionally there will be people who follow it as individuals but the institution is ripe with hypocracy and hatreds.

And of course no religion have a place in Schools or any other state sponsered institution. But with a nutjob like Bush in office we'll see more and more of this shit especially as he nominates right wingers to the Supreme Court.

http://members.aol.com/rnfpantera/hking2

adolescentmasturbator

01-29-2002, 08:40 PM

I'm a hardcore atheist and I feel that I should respond.

During the nazi rule in Germany many clergy were killed that opposed Hitler. Look up on your history. It happened.

I've had discussions with theists and such and I've even handed sheets in predicate calculus disproving God. But you are trying to actively convert people. The very same thing you are condemning in theists. I have no problem with theists as long as they do not try to push their beliefs on me or anyone else and I think that is the best way to look at it. We have freedom to not have a religon and freedom to have a religon. Let people have their belief set if it isn't harming anyone.

Do I feel many religious beliefs are complete insanity? Yes I do absolutely. We must remember however that everything isn't black and white when it comes to religious beliefs. Some aren't so bad.

The fact is that despite all the platitudes that religions give to peace, love and understanding, it is not practiced or shown to members outside the club.

That is not necesarily true. I know many people that give it to outsiders as well. Sweeping general statements are almost never 100% true.

<IMG SRC="http://pinkorag.50megs.com/RFnetAM.jpg">
Thanks to fallon for the sig

HordeKing1

01-29-2002, 10:03 PM

ADOLESENT - I've been patient with you for a long time. Too long apparantly as you still dont' have a clue.

You don't understand what I am saying either due to an active desire not to understand or from a lack of intellect.

Not only this, but you have become quite adapt at revisionist history. I'm sure Zundel would be very proud of you.

Look him up, if you don't already have his site on your favorites. You seem to share the same views.

http://members.aol.com/rnfpantera/hking2

spoon

01-30-2002, 12:32 AM

Since sept 11, I have come to rely upon God as my guidance. He has given me the courage to carry on with my job and help others as best as I can.
You truly rely on your concept of God. And I personally think religion picks up where reality leaves off. Instead of dealing with situations, it gives the false hope of leaning on this concept that all will be fine in the end.....later, after death. The answers I surely don't have, yet it is obvious that most religions are born when things can't be explained and are surely embraced by those who hope for a better future, or better times. The theory of "social control" as HK put it is surely a good one. Another way to put it is that "Religion is the human race's crutch in life". Instead of dealing with life fully, one may look to the next for comfort. This surely complies with the social control that the king speaks of and isn't it just a code of conduct in the end similar to the "Code of Chivalry"? Matt and Trey had it right in South Park the movie when they stated in hell that everyone, catholic priests and nuns, buddhist monks, protestant ministers, and others were in hell due to the fact that they picked wrong. The correct religion was Mormonism! Hence if god judges in this nature, truly how infalible is he. Hence simply lead a good and if there is a god (who may not even be good as we know it though) and things should fall into place. If not, would you want to be by his side. And truth be told, if I was god I would surely be tired of everyone praying and kissing my ass at all hours all the time. Just a weird thought. Really though, ever have that kiss ass friend? Gets annoying REAL quick!

<img src="http://members.aol.com/dxixrxt/spoon2.jpg">
Nothing...i have nothing!

nellie

01-30-2002, 01:55 PM

how do you know that god wasn't part of a complex race of beings in some part of the universe that we as humans are yet to explore. maybe they were considered gods or the one solitary god b/c they had such advanced technology that early humans thought that they were special powers.

i am the inner child..... quiet, sensitive, and shy

HordeKing1

01-30-2002, 08:58 PM

Any technology if sufficiently advanced from our own is indistinguishable from magic. - Arthur C. Clarke.

http://members.aol.com/rnfpantera/hking2

FiveB247

01-30-2002, 09:24 PM

I can't believe this arguement is still going on?

Anyways..many people say god exists..many people say he does not..I lean towards the side of not...but regardless..i'd like to hope there is a god..but even i can admit the possibility of a god..cause of so many un-answered questions in life. **But How many of You Religious people who are so devout and look to an imaginery, all knowing thing,(which is against science and logic) can admit the possibility of non-existence? My guess is zero. So you keep praying, reading the bible, torah, koran or whatever else. I just live, lead a nice,pleasant life and make the best of things.

And someone mentioned earlier the notion of John Lennon's anti-religious beliefs? The fact is we live in REALITY where religion seperates people and has been the cause of wars and killing. We live on Earth where people follow and use religion as a ploy or weapon to conquer or gain power. There's a huge difference between religion as spirtuality and a religion as the cause and effect of things in life.

Another thing...if everyone is so religious..how are you sure you're praying to the correct god or believing the right religion? Answer me that one..

http://wwfallon.homestead.com/files/RFnetFiveB247.JPG

vegeta

01-31-2002, 03:16 AM

If you knew enough about how the body of any complex organism is wred, you would believe that there is some kind of god.

Do you think a big bang put all of these strange and interesting creatures on this planet?

Well, I'm guessing that you don't believe in God because you've heard of all the good things he and his son did in the bible and now innocent people die without reason.

I believe that people give god too much credit. I think that after a certain time, God (or whatever you want to call him) said "My creations can handle themselves. I'll just watch over them."

<center><a href="http://www.animenation.com"><img src="http://thereturnofdarkforces.homestead.com/files/VegetaPunch.jpg" width=150 height=100></a>
 
"You don't know who I am? Fool! Don't make me bitch-slap you!"
</center>

HordeKing1

01-31-2002, 03:33 PM

VEGETA - Human life is complex, but a remarkably inefficient design.

It's interesting that you bring up the Big Bang. Theists paricularly like the big bang theory b/c it points to a single moment of creation. Preceding this moment, they aver, there was nothing but god.

Of course, that argument is spurious as it is no more likely for the big bang to have been initiated by god that by other forces. Moreover, they do not take into account the concept of the big bang being preceeded by the big crunch (which in turn was preceded by the big bang).

You're adopting a Christian frame of reference when you say "I'm guessing that you don't believe in God because you've heard of all the good things he and his son did in the bible and now innocent people die without reason."

Sorry but I find a lot of flaws with that statement. Firstly atheists don't believe that god ever existed. The idea that god had a son is just too ludicrous to even consider rationally. Theists use the crutch of religion to pretend that there is a purpose to everything and that nothing is "without reason." It makes death and sickness easier to deal with. God is merely a coping mechanism and a maladaptive one at that.

It's interesting that people are arrogant enough to believe that they were worthy of creation by god(s), and even worthy of god knocking up a woman (taking on for the team) and torturing him to atone for their sins, yet feel that god isn't involved in daily life.

My atheism is a result of years of introspection, reading, meeting with various religious leaders, interviews, studying and common sense.

http://members.aol.com/rnfpantera/hking2

vegeta

01-31-2002, 05:04 PM

Well there are only two things I find inefficient about the human body

1) The internal organs of the human body are just hideous! why couldn't God make a neater package when he decided to create life?

2) We're not immortal. What's really the point of life if you a) get older, weaker and slower and b) by the time you've learned enough lessons from your life mistakes, you practically have one foot in the grave! I would love to have a life like an electronic toy: when your bateries run out and your parts are rusty, you get replacements!

<center><a href="http://www.animenation.com"><img src="http://thereturnofdarkforces.homestead.com/files/VegetaPunch.jpg" width=150 height=100></a>
 
"You don't know who I am? Fool! Don't make me bitch-slap you!"
</center>

HordeKing1

02-01-2002, 11:58 PM

VEGETA - Have you read any science fiction stories about downloading personality into a computer or robot.

Most are very well done and deal with questions such as what makes someone who they are? and can an intellect exist without its native body?

Unfortunately, I can't remember all the fine authors who wrote about this, but Hugo-Award-winners Arthur C. Clarke and Bruce Sterling are worth checking out.

By the way, most estimates have this moving from science fiction to fact within 50 (!) years.

Even more amazing are the predictions that augmented humans (for example with implanted computer chips to assist memory or vision) will be happening within 10 years!

I'm waiting for 2 things - a better spine and a flying "Jetson-type" of car.

http://members.aol.com/rnfpantera/hking2

spoon

02-02-2002, 04:10 AM

Jetson car. Now your talking! <--Dumb phrase huh?!
Personally I can't wait for instant transportation, or something relatively close. Driving and flying, thing of the past brothers.
Horde King
Have you read Ray Kurzweil's "Spiratual Machines"? He is a great writer on augmentated humans and the resulting (predicted) recourse and drain of life as we know it in many forms. Emotional drain.
A band I love from Canada read it and made somewhat, but not a true concept album inspired by the work. Some songs were written before the influence, yet most after and they even arranged for Kurzweil to do vocal intros on the album taken directly from his book. He is also an accomplished inventor. The band is Our Lady Peace and the album is entitled "Spirtual Machines" after the book. Really cool sound and concept. I would highly recomend the book and cd! Cya!

<img src="http://members.aol.com/dxixrxt/spoon2.jpg">
Nothing...i have nothing!

HordeKing1

02-05-2002, 03:01 PM

SPOON - That's so funny! I was going to suggest Spiritual Machines, but I couldn't think of the title!

http://members.aol.com/rnfpantera/hking2

spoon

02-05-2002, 09:39 PM

It's one hell of a book HK, and the band is sure a cool selection.

<img src="http://members.aol.com/dxixrxt/spoon2.jpg">
Nothing...i have nothing!

furie

02-06-2002, 05:21 AM

Faith is believing what you know isn't true.

<img src="http://tseery.homestead.com/files/grendel.jpg" width=300 height=100 >

wilee

02-06-2002, 07:26 AM

Will we be discussing politics next? Oh, wait, we talked about Hitler, and Bush in here....

HK- You bring up the point about the Big Bang (and the Big Crunch) mostly stating that theists use this as a point of exposition for which God "created the universe". Well, studying non-creationist theories will pose as many questions about the creation of the universe as creationist theories. If the Big Bang was preceded by the Big Crunch, preceded by the Big Bang, etc. then has the matter which makes up our universe always existed? If not, where did it come from? If it was always there, that is akin to the argument that God has always existed as stated in Christian doctrine.

I agree that as a race we are learning more and more about our existence, such as curing illnesses, and replacing organs or limbs. You spoke about us eventually discovering other things that would explain things such as spontaneous remission of diseases- true, perhaps, but in the same school of thought about us discovering further truths about ourselves, we may find that evolution had some help. [insert argument here about how evolution, by definition, does not allow for "help"].

The debate between you and NYDragon proves another point. You stated in one of your responses "It's nice that you finally concede that Hitler used the religion of Christianity for his own ends." yet are so quick so ascribe the 9/11 disaster as "... the religious motivations of the fanatics who murdered thousands of people on 9/11 are unquestionable." While those that flew the planes may have believed in God, their minds were twisted into this desire to be "martyred" and "die for their God" by a madman who is, just as Hitler, using religion to his own end.

Bin Laden is a master manipulator and has people willing to die for his cause because he tells them that it is God's will. He could just as easily have told them that the moon was crashing down and that the World Trade Center was causing it through causing a wobble in the earth's rotation, and that destroying the towers was the only way to save the world. It is all a matter of charisma, leadership and knowing who you control- in short, it is mostly psychology (a science I've seen you utilize many times on this board) which was the cause. Just because these people had their religious beliefs twisted causing them to do this, doesn't make the religion the thing to blame. I'm sure that in the writings of the Islamic religion, it doesn't state to kill other people. Many Islamics were adamant about that in the days following 9/11.

Other battles between religions arose mainly out of persecution fears. Early Christians worshipped in secret for fear that they would be persecuted by others. The belief of one religion's superiority over another is not something indoctrinated in most religions. Granted, there are the "no other Gods but me" statements that are made, but it doesn't say to "snuff out the infidel" anywhere in the Bible that I've seen.

As for the coexistence of God and free will- are you going to tell your children what to do for the rest of their lives? Using Christianity's popular phrase "We are God's Children" implies to a degree what I'm talking about.

If God were to put his hand on everyone directing them as to what they should do, it's nothing but a big puppet show to amuse himself. Giving people free will, even the choice to not believe in any God causes the world to have it's share of happiness, sadness, violence, kindness, etc. And just as Funkman said: "Eternal Happiness... How would you know happiness if you did not know about sadness..."

There are still many ethical/theological/medical uncertainties in the world. What truely happens when we die? If we transferred our personality to a machine, would our conciousness go as well- would it be us, but not us? What is conciousness?

We can sit here for years debating these things, it's just the same as asking what is Love. Different people feel it in different ways, so we may never be able to put it in defined terms, but I

HordeKing1

02-07-2002, 04:16 PM

WILEE - You did not read my post about the big bang carefully. I wrote that theists like this theory as pointing to a single point of time in creation.

I did not say that it is exclusive to theists. Indeed people of all scientific and superstitious backgrounds like the theory.

My point was that the idea of being a creation in general is a big leap that is no more credible than any other theory. The idea of a god creating all is even less credible than other possible explanations. Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof, and not one scintilla of evidence has ever been verified about the existence of any gods or afterlife.

The theory that something always existed is far more plausable to me than the idea of a big invisible man in the sky cobbling the universe (or multiverse) together.

You wrote that I would say that "evolution, by definition, does not allow for "help". Not the case, evolution doesn't happen on it's own. It's in response to environmental conditions. The help is not divine of course, it's help of a different nature: If there was no food shortage in the veldt for example, differnt niches wouldn't have arisen to take advantage of everything available. If animals hadn't at some point been geographically isoltated (by continental break off, avalanche, volcano, etc,) speciation couldn't occur. Finally, recall that the primary cause of speciation and evolution are mutatations caused by solar radiations. Almost all the mutations are spontaneously aborted. Rarely a mutation is carried to term and has enough of a survival advantage that he develops a higher degree of fitness than his predecessors.

Similarly, I think you missed my point about Hitler and the Moslem extremists. It's simply this - Religion is utilized as justification to commit heinious acts. Religion is directly responsible for more murders than all causes. For a loving guy god is sure bloodthirsty.

Bin Laden is not so much a master manipulator. He is one of thousands throughout history to use existing religious beliefs to further not just his ends, but the ends of his god. He and his followers, and all terrorists aren't just dangerous because they're nuts, they're dangerous becuause they have psychotic delusions about god and heaven.

Bin Ladin couldn't have gotten mass support and followers without tying in to the religious training his people are indoctrinated in from birth.

It's not that the "people's" religious beliefs were twisted, it was their twisted religious beliefs that was the proximate cause. Arab moslems are taught to hate jews and americans from birth. It's taught in nursery school. It's taught that killing the infidels is the path to heaven.

The moslems who deny this are counting on gullible people not willing to believe that the culture could be so twisted.

You wrote, "The belief of one religion's superiority over another is not something indoctrinated in most religions." That's flat out not true. Every religion claims to have the pipeline to the one true god. Even the different branches of christianity are convinced the others don't have a clue.

You wrote it doesn't say "snuff out the infidel" anywhere in the Bible." I wish you were correct about this. The old and new testament both call for this. Jesus was very big on only sharing his "secret" with a select group and then condeming those who don't believe in him.

Your comment about God and free will shows an utter lack of understanding of the basic logical argument showing that belief in an omnipotent being (god) and free will cannot exist. The very idea of omnipotence and free will is but one of the many internal contradictions of relgion that collapses under the weight of scrutiny. ONLY those who don't believe in an omnipotent being can believe in free will. See my earlier arguments in prior posts for a greater treatment of the topic.

You ask "How would you know happiness if you did not know about sadness..." I have a better question. Why couldn't the super best friends (gods and aquam

wilee

02-07-2002, 06:13 PM

HK, I understand the concept of debate and welcome the discussion, but again, as in other posts previously, you try to dispell the existence of any God by saying "no evidence". There are many things "accepted" in science that there is NO physical evidence of, but because the "numbers" say it, it is "accepted". Entropy was listed as a case in point. If as stated in the first law of thermodynamics that the energy of a closed system remains constant, how can the energy be leaving it (or as the 2nd law states, degrade)? These two laws conflict each other directly.

You state: "The theory that something always existed is far more plausable to me than the idea of a big invisible man in the sky cobbling the universe (or multiverse) together."

Therefore you are agreeing that you would accept the possibility that something could have always existed. Why not a consciousness? There are many ways in which the Big Bang Theory fits the "numbers" as to what is being recorded about our universe (background radiation, current rate of expansion, red shift, etc.) But there are other theories that have been put forth as well. All these theories still pose the questions that I don't think will be answered in even Lenay's lifetime, such as what is beyond the universe? Since humans are finite beings (as stated earlier in the thread) until we reach a certain level of development, we will never be able to wrap our minds around some of these concepts.

What you said about evolution having help through natural causes is not exactly accurate. Yes, you can refer to Darwinism, natural selection and such as nature "helping" evolution, but they are actually part of the process of evolution. Survival of the fittest means that if some type of genetic defect allows for a "mutant" to have a better opportunity to survive if carried to term, then that is the likely outcome. Evolution consists of the changes that takes place in a species. This includes mutations, etc. Having a food supply dwindle or cut off could cause that species that can eat less continue. It's all the same side of the coin.

You believe I missed your points about Hitler and Bin Laden saying "Religion is utilized as justification to commit heinious acts." But you have crystalized my point in saying that. Religion or a belief in God is not what causes these people to do these things. Science or almost anything can be used to direct people to do what you want them to do. When the H-bomb was tested for the first time, some scientists were not sure if the nuclear reaction would stop, they believed that the reaction would consume all the atoms in the earth's atmosphere and were upset at the prospect of using such a device. Blocks of graphite and other heavy materials are used to prevent the reaction from reaching a supercritical stage in a reactor, but in an uncontrolled nuclear reaction, these safeties are not available. What if these scientists went screaming to the world that using this device would kill everyone on earth? My guess: big mob intent on stopping it. Point being that it is still a matter of psychology. Just because a scientist says it' true doesn't make it true. Just because someone tells you this is the route to heaven doesn't make that the case, either. But belief in God in and of itself doesn't make people fly planes into buildings, or climb a clock tower with a rifle. If someone told me the only way to get to "the afterlife" was to kill so many people, I (personally) would realize that this person is trying to entice me to do something to HIS own ends. If someone follows Christianity, the "love thy neighbor" and "do unto others..." credoes should raise a red flag when the guy tells you to kill people. Maybe these muslims were weak-minded and just looking for a person to feed them some kind of personal empowerment? If one of them could have been checked out by a psychologist, maybe we would know the answer.

"Your comment about God and free will shows an utter lack of understanding of the basic logical argument". Sorry, BS in Compute

Meatball

02-07-2002, 07:25 PM

I must say - 0f all the topics ive read on this site, this one is the most entertaining. I wonder..in the history of mankind..does anyone think a person who is an athiest or theist ever changed their beliefs based on a "debate"? I know they have based on other life factors. One thing is for certain..we all will one day know the "truth". When we die we either meet God or rot in a pine box - i for one will be wearing clean underwear just in case ;)
nighty night

HordeKing1

02-07-2002, 09:34 PM

WILEE - Your response was so interesting and well thought out that it was a tremendous pleasure to read. (Not that I agree with you - lol, but that's the entire point of open dialoge and debate, hearing the other's perspective.)

I also have to commend you on what is unquestionably the best single line in this entire thread. "All these theories still pose the questions that I don't think will be answered in even Lenay's lifetime."

Hopefully we can hook up on day and discuss this further.

http://members.aol.com/rnfpantera/hking2

wilee

02-08-2002, 04:58 AM

HK, thank you. It's always interesting to have a good mental workout. I usually follow the unwritten rules of bar tiquette to not discuss religion or politics at a bar, as I know when liquor gets introduced, things start to get bad. I've seen this first hand on more than one occasion.

I'll give you something to think about that perhaps you'll find interesting. You say that you require tangible proof of God's existence. Ok, let's apply this to something else. Give me tangible proof that you love your wife. I think that this would show that people accept things (other than the existence of God) on faith all the time.

<IMG SRC="http://cwjr.home.infi.net/rocket.jpg">

The Blowhard

02-08-2002, 05:27 AM

Respect the believer, not the belief, and the world would be a better place.

This hits the nail on the head. Thank you Toot. We need to be tolerant of each other, the bashing is ignorant and destructive. Live long and prosper.

<img src=http://www.ltrooster.homestead.com/files/heckler1_Animation.GIF>

NewYorkDragons80

02-12-2002, 03:57 PM

Mortician, you bring up a great point. I have gone to Catholic school my entire life and I have always believed in God, but I never really had a personal relationship with him until it began to be challenged by friends, the media, and even people on this board. I'm sure it works the same way for HK. I've come to the conclusion that if anyone is to change anyone's mind it will certainly not be through words but by actions. All that we say on some message boards means absolutely cock; it's what we do Monday-Saturday that counts, not who we visit on Sunday (Or Saturday to have all my bases covered.) If we start doing what has been written for over 2,000 years, then people change their minds. Not through science, or by that token, magic.

Atheists have their mindset, and theists will have theirs. The only way we can change anyone is by practicing what we preach. Ghandi said "All the world would be Christian if its followers were like Christ." He was an atheist because of the destruction he saw theists cause.

Well, I guess I'll step off my soapbox for now.

"THOSE BASTARDS"
-Norman Schwarzkopf

"May God bless us in this trial, comfort us, strengthen our resolve, and make our justice as terrible and certain as His."
-Senator John McCain

"Neitzche is dead"
-God

CovDiesel

02-14-2002, 09:40 PM

... i still believe in God.

<IMG SRC="http://members.aol.com/dxixrxt/covpigs.jpg">

HordeKing1

02-14-2002, 10:00 PM

NYDRAGON - I don't think that this dialouge is "all cock." The purpose isn't to change anyones ideas or to convert anyone, but rather to explore how the ideas expressed jell with your internal schema.

People must be able to come to religion via talk as there are countless missionaries working to "save" the unenlightened.

My personal story, is somewhat in between. When I first began to question my beliefs in earnest, in addition to reading religious works, philosophy, physics and the like, I spoke very deeply and intimately about these matters with well over 100 people, the overwhelming majority of them religious.

Eventually, I sat down and thought about all I had learned, the questions I had answered (and not answered) and the new ones that arose. Following about 2 years of introspection and continued questionings, I drew my own conclusion - what I consider to be the inavoidable conclusion, that the gods are myths, used to control various underclasses in society and to enrich others.

The dialouge and conversations I had with all these people helped sharpen my focus, and clarify things in my mind.

Ultimately, of course, it is up to the individual to choose whether or not he chooses to believe, and if the latter, than what he chooses to believe and to what extent. Questioning is always positive, no matter what you do with the answer.

http://members.aol.com/rnfpantera/hking2

vegeta

02-15-2002, 04:10 AM

Well, I go back to my original point that I started this thread with.

There has to be some sort of God. The question is who or what God is and was he as powerful as the Bible claims he is?

If you think about it, the image of God is not described anywhere in the bible. He is reffered to, if i'm correct, as a beam of light that would eternally blind you.

Is that light around God just natural, or is it a mask that conceals the fact that God may look human?

Look at me, going off on a tangent!

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</center>

NewYorkDragons80

02-15-2002, 12:00 PM

Questioning is always positive, no matter what you do with the answer.
I couldn't agree more. Blindly following anything; a government, religion, or any institution is a path to disaster. I think any free-thinking person questions his faith and doesn't completely believe everything exactly the way his or her church tells them to.

I hope you don't mind me asking, but as someone who was raised Jewish, do you raise your children with religion?

"THOSE BASTARDS"
-Norman Schwarzkopf

"May God bless us in this trial, comfort us, strengthen our resolve, and make our justice as terrible and certain as His."
-Senator John McCain

"Neitzche is dead"
-God

This message was edited by NewYorkDragons80 on 2-15-02 @ 4:04 PM

Jackie Sloan

02-15-2002, 12:17 PM

Horde King is God...or a damn good scientist!

IIIIIII...feel for you...then I f*uckin' go away

HordeKing1

02-16-2002, 06:31 PM

VEGETA - You wrote: "Well, I go back to my original point that I started this thread with. There has to be some sort of God."

Now we haven't established that at all.

Perhaps you can rephrase your question that you believe there is a god/s or you'd like to believe their gods.

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HordeKing1

02-16-2002, 06:50 PM

NewYorkDragons80 - You pose a very interesting question and one that has a complex answer.

When I got married over 16 1/2 years ago, I was orthodox. My progression to atheism occured over a long time and culminated with my current understanding of god as a human construct.

My wife does not share my beliefs and remains orthodox. In respect for her and her beliefs I have made certain accomodations.

So, we are bringing the kids up orthodox, but there is a very big "but attached to it. Every week we discuss the themes they are learning in school. We discuss alternate viewpoints (from other religions as well as atheism). They have the knowledge now, that there are many perspectives to the same issues and that what they are told in school or by their friends, or by their mother or by me, isn't necessarily the absolute truth.

Ultimately, although most parents aren't comfortable with the idea, kids grow up to make their own choices and to adopt their own unique philosophy in every area of their life.

I see my role as a parent to give them the opportunity to make as informed a decision as possible from as wide a variety of options as possible.

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vegeta

02-17-2002, 09:31 AM

Well, horde King, if a big bang created the universe, then I count that as God.

If an amoeba was the first living thing on this planet, then I call that god.

What still perplexes me is the idea of god always being here, which gives me doubt as to if god is really who the bible says He is.

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DarkHippie

02-17-2002, 09:50 PM

what created "god"? I have a theory. It's seems a bit crazy, but try to follow me on it.for this, i will replace "god" with "big bang" to take it at a scientific level

the big bang was when all the matter in the universe, which was condenced into an incomprehensibly small and dense package, suddenly burst, expelling and expanding itself.

the key word is "dense."

according to steven hawking, space-time is not an absolute constant. It is bent by gravitaional fields caused by dense objects, such as black holes. Now if something is dense enough (like the universe before the big bang) isn't it feasible that the gravitational field would be so strong that it would bend space-time back on itself, effective meaning that time doesn't change? If you measure time in relation to the speed of light, you already know it to be true. scientists have been able to speed up and slow down light in tests for a few years now . . . even momentarily stopping it.

But time is defined by it's movement, (can it be defined by anything else?)therefore, if it doesn't move, it doesn't exist.

therefore: nothing came before the big bang because there was no before. No time, no before, no after.

I hope i didn't lose anyone with this. i woke up in the middle of the night with this in my head and i had to rush to wirte my inspiration down before i lost it.

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