Abortion Doctor Shot in Wichita, KS

[Suspect Chin]

I don't believe in late term abortion either, but the logic of combating 'murder' with murder confounds me.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/05/31/kansas.doctor.killed/

[Serpico1103]

I don't believe in late term abortion either, but the logic of combating 'murder' with murder confounds me.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/05/31/kansas.doctor.killed/

It is very simple. While God created the Earth, he is simply incapable of dealing with abortion doctors. So, true believers help him out. After all, helping starving babies is much less fun than sniping a doctor.

[badmonkey]

Insane people think it's like killing Hitler to stop the holocaust. Most christians and anti-abortion people are not insane and would agree with these two statements by Operation Rescue.

The anti-abortion group Operation Rescue, which has led numerous demonstrations at Tiller's clinic, condemned the shooting as a "cowardly act."
"We grieve for him that he did not have time to properly prepare his soul to face God"

The people that shoot abortion doctors and/or blow up abortion clinics are the exeption, not the rule.

[Suspect Chin]

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-tiller1-2009jun01,0,7068875.story

Apparently there is only one doctor left in the world now that performs late term abortions, and he has acknowledged that he is next on the list.

[brettmojo]

Insane people think it's like killing Hitler to stop the holocaust. Most christians and anti-abortion people are not insane and would agree with these two statements by Operation Rescue.

The anti-abortion group Operation Rescue, which has led numerous demonstrations at Tiller's clinic, condemned the shooting as a "cowardly act."
"We grieve for him that he did not have time to properly prepare his soul to face God"

The people that shoot abortion doctors and/or blow up abortion clinics are the exeption, not the rule.
Yeah, that's a harsh condemnation.

[epo]

Suspect found in the case. (http://www.kansascity.com/116/story/1225769.html?storylink=omni_popular)

So the provider was working in his church when this happened? That is seriously fucked up.

Tiller was serving as an usher at the church, one of six ushers listed in the church bulletin. He was handing out bulletins to people going into the sanctuary minutes before being shot.

Wow.

[Death Metal Moe]

Praise Jesus!

[Ritalin]

http://talk.newagtalk.com/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=103002&mid=728448#M728448

[brettmojo]

http://talk.newagtalk.com/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=103002&mid=728448#M728448
Wow, took only a couple posts to compare the guy with Saddam Hussien... Hilarious!

[keithy_19]

I'm against late term abortions. That being said, people who kill the doctors or blow up the clinics are disgusting.

[DarkHippie]

I thought holy ground was like home base in Tag

[epo]

http://talk.newagtalk.com/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=103002&mid=728448#M728448

This is the perfect example of why I hate the "pro-life" movement and their rhetoric:

http://talk.newagtalk.com/forums/get-attachment.asp?action=view&attachmentid=48494

I can't even express right now how stupid, simplistic and childish their rhetoric/point-of-view is right now.

Insanity.

[underdog]

I think we can all agree that the 201st trimester is far too late for an abortion.

[angrymissy]

Insane people think it's like killing Hitler to stop the holocaust. Most christians and anti-abortion people are not insane and would agree with these two statements by Operation Rescue.

The anti-abortion group Operation Rescue, which has led numerous demonstrations at Tiller's clinic, condemned the shooting as a "cowardly act."
"We grieve for him that he did not have time to properly prepare his soul to face God"

The people that shoot abortion doctors and/or blow up abortion clinics are the exeption, not the rule.

Oh, the same Operation Rescue that posts names, addresses, names of children and where they go to school, names of spouses and where they work, and license plate numbers of doctors online?

The same Operation Rescue with the "Tiller Watch" on their website?

The same Operation Rescue that has now conveniently yanked their website?

Fuck them, bunch of hypocrites.

[Death Metal Moe]

I think we can all agree that the 201st trimester is far too late for an abortion.

Don't put your laws on my body mister.

[angrymissy]

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-tiller1-2009jun01,0,7068875.story

Apparently there is only one doctor left in the world now that performs late term abortions, and he has acknowledged that he is next on the list.

Late term abortions can be obtained across the US, the wackjobs focused on Tiller because he had a large clinic.

[IamFogHat]

What year is this?
I honestly thought this barbarism only happened in the 90's, I might be out of touch news wise. I'm not saying I don't think christians are any less insane then they've always been, but jesus christ in 2009 they think it's still cool to murder people to prove a point? Fucking hypocrite asshole maniacs.
Way to bring down your fucking group asshole. For every good thing christians do, it's shit like this that reinforces the maniacy that we all view you with.

[Doctor Z]

The good news is, his death will save the lives of hundreds of unwanted children.

[Suspect Chin]

Late term abortions can be obtained across the US, the wackjobs focused on Tiller because he had a large clinic.

Really? I was under that impression too, but the article says the guy in Colorado is now the last one left to do it.

[Serpico1103]

"Pneumonia and diarrhoea kill 3.8 million infants every year, even though both conditions are treatable, the WHO said."

While late term abortions number 1,000 in the US.
I am confused. Does God only care about American babies?

The Colorado doctor said he is the only one who does "very late term" abortions. Since "late term" is a vague term, what does "very late term" mean?

[Devo37]

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c395/Devo37/sign-1.jpg

[underdog]

Does God only care about American babies?

Duh, of course.

The Colorado doctor said he is the only one who does "very late term" abortions. Since "late term" is a vague term, what does "very late term" mean?

31 years.

[Serpico1103]

Duh, of course.



31 years.

I hope you haven't blown out 31 candles yet.

[Death Metal Moe]

The good news is, his death will save the lives of hundreds of unwanted children.

I will sleep tight tonight knowing that in about 8 years a mother will be working 2 jobs, letting the TV babysit her kid, unaware of the location of the father just so some people in a church can feel better than the rest of us.

[Tenbatsuzen]

I'm not mocking, but I never understood the idea of a late-term abortion. Wouldn't you, as soon as you found out, get one, rather than let the "concept" (thanks, Ron) grow inside of you and then decide at the last moment to end it?

I'm not saying I'm against late-term abortions, I'm just wondering if you have gotten to that point, why you haven't explored adoption. Is it fear of birth or something?

[brettmojo]

I'm not mocking, but I never understood the idea of a late-term abortion. Wouldn't you, as soon as you found out, get one, rather than let the "concept" (thanks, Ron) grow inside of you and then decide at the last moment to end it?

I'm not saying I'm against late-term abortions, I'm just wondering if you have gotten to that point, why you haven't explored adoption. Is it fear of birth or something?
In some cases it's done to protect the life of the mother apparently. I guess from complications that may occur late in pregnancy?

[Suspect Chin]

I think we can all agree that the 201st trimester is far too late for an abortion.

Is that the gestation period of the rare Mongoloidus Underdogus species?

[Tenbatsuzen]

In some cases it's done to protect the life of the mother apparently. I guess from complications that may occur late in pregnancy?

My wife just gave me the same answer. Now I know.

[Kris10]

Some girls just don't believe they are pregnant and deny it up until the very last possible moment. Sick.

[angrymissy]

"Pneumonia and diarrhoea kill 3.8 million infants every year, even though both conditions are treatable, the WHO said."

While late term abortions number 1,000 in the US.
I am confused. Does God only care about American babies?

The Colorado doctor said he is the only one who does "very late term" abortions. Since "late term" is a vague term, what does "very late term" mean?

Colorado doc sounds a little out there, actually, just read up on him, I don't understand why he'd say he's the only doctor in the world performing a third trimester abortion, since he states he does it for fetal defect as other docs across the country do.

Abortion is legal in many States (including NY) up to 24 weeks, which most people consider late term.

I am guessing he's referring to after 24 weeks as "very late term". Abortion is only legal after 24 weeks in cases of severe fetal defect or to save the life of the mother, and there are several clinics and hospitals that perform them across the country. Special requirements have to be met for those to be performed (what Tiller was being investigated for).

[Suspect Chin]

Colorado doc sounds like a wackadoodle.

Abortion is legal in many States (including NY) up to 24 weeks, which most people consider late term.

I am guessing he's referring to after 24 weeks as "very late term". Abortion is only legal after 24 weeks in cases of severe fetal defect or to save the life of the mother, and there are several clinics and hospitals that perform them across the country. Special requirements have to be met for those to be performed (what Tiller was being investigated for).

The guy in Colorado (and maybe Tiller) is doing partial birth abortions, where the baby is partially born (halfway out of the mother) and the doctor pokes a hole in its skull and sucks out its brain. The most disgusting thing is that his practice then offers baptism, footprinting, burial services, etc.

[brettmojo]

The guy in Colorado (and maybe Tiller) is doing partial birth abortions, where the baby is partially born (halfway out of the mother) and the doctor pokes a hole in its skull and sucks out its brain. The most disgusting thing is that his practice then offers baptism, footprinting, burial services, etc.
Who wants aborted babies in heaven? You'd be tripping over them constantly.

[underdog]

I'm not mocking, but I never understood the idea of a late-term abortion. Wouldn't you, as soon as you found out, get one, rather than let the "concept" (thanks, Ron) grow inside of you and then decide at the last moment to end it?

I'm not saying I'm against late-term abortions, I'm just wondering if you have gotten to that point, why you haven't explored adoption. Is it fear of birth or something?

My church and I believe that there are women out there who really, really enjoy being pregnant, but they hate babies, so they get very late term abortions. We also believe that there are women out there that use abortion as birth control, you know because it's completely painless and women want to go through it all the time.

[underdog]

The guy in Colorado (and maybe Tiller) is doing partial birth abortions, where the baby is partially born (halfway out of the mother) and the doctor pokes a hole in its skull and sucks out its brain. The most disgusting thing is that his practice then offers baptism, footprinting, burial services, etc.

Man, I bet fetus brain is delicious.

[badmonkey]

Oh, the same Operation Rescue that posts names, addresses, names of children and where they go to school, names of spouses and where they work, and license plate numbers of doctors online?

The same Operation Rescue with the "Tiller Watch" on their website?

The same Operation Rescue that has now conveniently yanked their website?

Fuck them, bunch of hypocrites.

Woah, hang on there a sec. I'm not high fiving anybody about this guy's death. I'm not even endorsing or defending Operation Rescue. I don't know anything about them. I said that insane people think it's ok to kill abortion doctors to save babies. I pointed out that most Christians would agree with the statements that Operation Rescue issued regarding this man's murder and then quoted them.

I posted that because I knew that the inevitable "oooh look what the evil Christian fuckheads did!" was going to come up and the whole thread would turn into Christian bashing because one psychotic asshole kills an abortion doctor. That's all I was saying.

[brettmojo]

Man, I bet fetus brain is delicious.
http://www.spscriptorium.com/Season7/ChristopherReeve.jpg

[Ritalin]

Woah, hang on there a sec. I'm not high fiving anybody about this guy's death. I'm not even endorsing or defending Operation Rescue. I don't know anything about them. I said that insane people think it's ok to kill abortion doctors to save babies. I pointed out that most Christians would agree with the statements that Operation Rescue issued regarding this man's murder and then quoted them.

I posted that because I knew that the inevitable "oooh look what the evil Christian fuckheads did!" was going to come up and the whole thread would turn into Christian bashing because one psychotic asshole kills an abortion doctor. That's all I was saying.

Actually, if you watch the blogosphere most Christians and Conservatives are running away from the Operation Rescue release as fast as they can.

The man was shot in his own church. You think most Christians are down with that?

[angrymissy]

The guy in Colorado (and maybe Tiller) is doing partial birth abortions, where the baby is partially born (halfway out of the mother) and the doctor pokes a hole in its skull and sucks out its brain. The most disgusting thing is that his practice then offers baptism, footprinting, burial services, etc.

First of all, Partial Birth Abortion is not even a medical term, and is not even the procedure most commonly used. They do not remove the fetus out of the mother, it is performed in the birth cancal.

Second of all, do you know why his practice offers baptism, footprinting, etc? BECAUSE THOSE WERE WANTED PREGNANCIES THAT WENT BAD. When a baby is going to be born with no brain, no lungs, ancephaly, hydrocephalus- they often perform a "partial birth" abortion becuase that procedure provides an intact fetus for the parents to grieve over. Intact Dilation and Extraction (your "partial birth abortion") provides these people with an intact fetus, the other options (Dilation & Evacuation), leaves them with hacked up fetus parts.

Unless you'd rather force those women to carry doomed pregnancies to term instead.

[angrymissy]

Woah, hang on there a sec. I'm not high fiving anybody about this guy's death. I'm not even endorsing or defending Operation Rescue. I don't know anything about them. I said that insane people think it's ok to kill abortion doctors to save babies. I pointed out that most Christians would agree with the statements that Operation Rescue issued regarding this man's murder and then quoted them.

I posted that because I knew that the inevitable "oooh look what the evil Christian fuckheads did!" was going to come up and the whole thread would turn into Christian bashing because one psychotic asshole kills an abortion doctor. That's all I was saying.

I just hate that group in particular and find it ridiculous that they're basically trying to protect themselves from any fallout from this, when they were the main group promoting harassing Tiller, and putting all his info out there.

[Suspect Chin]

First of all, Partial Birth Abortion is not even a medical term, and is not even the procedure most commonly used. They do not remove the fetus out of the mother, it is performed in the birth cancal.

Second of all, do you know why his practice offers baptism, footprinting, etc? BECAUSE THOSE WERE WANTED PREGNANCIES THAT WENT BAD. When a baby is going to be born with no brain, no lungs, ancephaly, hydrocephalus- they often perform a "partial birth" abortion becuase that procedure provides an intact fetus for the parents to grieve over.

Unless you'd rather force those women to carry doomed pregnancies to term instead.

Easy there, don't misinterpret my comments. I'm simply stating the facts. I only called it 'partial-birth' because I thought that would make sense than 'dilation and extraction'.

[hanso]

Choice life......Errr death.
Make up your minds god squads.
You suck BTW

[angrymissy]

Easy there, don't misinterpret my comments. I'm simply stating the facts. I only called it 'partial-birth' because I thought that would make sense than 'dilation and extraction'.

You're not stating the facts, as you incorrectly described the procedure, and then called his office disgusting for offering services for people terminating due to fetal defect.

The most disgusting thing is that his practice then offers baptism, footprinting, burial services, etc.

[badmonkey]

Actually, if you watch the blogosphere most Christians and Conservatives are running away from the Operation Rescue release as fast as they can.

The man was shot in his own church. You think most Christians are down with that?

There's nothing wrong with the two statements I quoted. It's entirely appropriate for Christians who believe the man was a murderer to be saddened by the fact that he died with that unresolved with his maker. The statement on its own is correct. The fact that it came from Operation Rescue, with the history that missy just pointed out, probably means it's an empty gesture from people that think he's burning in hell and it makes them smile. I think most Christians feel sad for the doctor and his family, not happiness over his murder.

I'm not sure what "conservatives" have to run away from concerning the press release. I'm pretty conservative and Operation Rescue doesn't represent me. As far as Christians go, a gunslinging psychopath on an assassination mission in a church doesn't sound like anything I've ever been taught in Sunday school growing up. He don't represent me either. Nothing to run away from.

[Suspect Chin]

You're not stating the facts, as you incorrectly described the procedure, and then called his office disgusting for offering services for people terminating due to fetal defect.

You're right, the correct procedure description is that the feet come out first until just the head is left inside, then the neck is incised and the brain is sucked out via the neck so the head shrinks and it is easier for the head to leave the birth canal.

I called it disgusting because the idea of handling a fetus long enough to footprint and baptise it is disgusting to me.

[badmonkey]

I just hate that group in particular and find it ridiculous that they're basically trying to protect themselves from any fallout from this, when they were the main group promoting harassing Tiller, and putting all his info out there.

Yay! I'm glad to hear that it wasn't really directed at me and that, for a change, I wasn't really misunderstood. :)

[booster11373]

Kansas is a fucked up place, read the book "Whats the matter with Kansas"

[Suspect Chin]

Late term abortions can be obtained across the US, the wackjobs focused on Tiller because he had a large clinic.

By the way, there are only three clinics in the US that provide late term abortions. Perhaps only two now.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/28/us/28abortion.html?_r=2&ref=us

[Drunky McBetidont]

By the way, there are only three clinics in the US that provide late term abortions. Perhaps only two now.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/28/us/28abortion.html?_r=2&ref=us

i can help anyone that is in a pinch


http://www.themagazine.info/56/Pictures/Briner%20inc/HangerChromeThree.jpg

[scottinnj]

Sorry I haven't been on the board in a while. Still doing this spiritual walk with God-it's pretty cool so far.

I popped in to say this:
I am pro-life, and would like to see abortion go away. Most of you know that.

BUT

The murder of Dr. Tiller was totally unjustified. I condemn what happened to the man.
Nobody can understand the mind of God, therefore, who are we to know what His judgement for anyone may or may not be, and how arrogant is it to think we have the authority to do such things?

Exodus 20:13 "You shall not murder." (NKJV) Pretty plain and simple. God said don't murder people.

Romans 13:1 & 2
1)"Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God."
2)"Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves."

Again, God is saying that those who rebel against government, like this vigilante did, and breaks the law will bring God's judgment on them.

There is no reason to justify this murder. Murder is murder.

[weekapaugjz]

Exodus 20:13 "You shall not murder." (NKJV) Pretty plain and simple. God said don't murder people.

Romans 13:1 & 2
1)"Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God."
2)"Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves."

Again, God is saying that those who rebel against government, like this vigilante did, and breaks the law will bring God's judgment on them.

did god say those things? or did man say them in the name of god?

[scottinnj]

did god say those things? or did man say them in the name of god?

I believe God said these things. Feel free to believe that, or not.

It's always been a matter of faith.

[Suspect Chin]

I believe God said these things. Feel free to believe that, or not.

It's always been a matter of faith.

Why faith in this particular book and not any of the other religions?

[badmonkey]

Why faith in this particular book and not any of the other religions?

Why not?

[scottinnj]

Why faith in this particular book and not any of the other religions?

Good question. I wondered that myself for a long time and began to question my faith. Then I read a book by C.S. Lewis called "Mere Christianity" and the first part of the book chronicles his change from atheism to a belief in God and then his conversion to Catholicism. I'm not a Catholic myself, I'm a Protestant with a Baptist upbringing. It answered a lot of questions I had.

As for being a Christian and believing the Bible, it's because the religion of Christianity, while old, is not the oldest and is based on Judaism which is one of the oldest religions in history. After studying the Bible for a long time, it made sense that the God of Israel was the same as the God of Christianity, and that Jesus is the only person the two could be pointing to as being the Messiah, the Savior. In other words, Christianity is the logical step from Judaism.

IMO, of course. Like I said, it's about faith, and in this country, I'm glad to be able to freely believe what I believe, and would not want anything less for anyone else.

[weekapaugjz]

Good question. I wondered that myself for a long time and began to question my faith. Then I read a book by C.S. Lewis called "Mere Christianity" and the first part of the book chronicles his change from atheism to a belief in God and then his conversion to Catholicism. I'm not a Catholic myself, I'm a Protestant with a Baptist upbringing. It answered a lot of questions I had.

i'm not religious myself, but i enjoy reading and attempting to understand different aspects about how people view it. i may have to check this book out.

IMO, of course. Like I said, it's about faith, and in this country, I'm glad to be able to freely believe what I believe, and would not want anything less for anyone else.

i completely agree.

[tanless1]

late term is incredibly savage in itself, at that point give birth and adopt out.
this murder certanly doesnt help.

[epo]

Sorry I haven't been on the board in a while. Still doing this spiritual walk with God-it's pretty cool so far.

I popped in to say this:
I am pro-life, and would like to see abortion go away. Most of you know that.

BUT

The murder of Dr. Tiller was totally unjustified. I condemn what happened to the man.
Nobody can understand the mind of God, therefore, who are we to know what His judgement for anyone may or may not be, and how arrogant is it to think we have the authority to do such things?

Exodus 20:13 "You shall not murder." (NKJV) Pretty plain and simple. God said don't murder people.

Romans 13:1 & 2
1)"Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God."
2)"Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves."

Again, God is saying that those who rebel against government, like this vigilante did, and breaks the law will bring God's judgment on them.

There is no reason to justify this murder. Murder is murder.

Scott, its really good to see you on the board. Welcome back and I know your voice will bring some reason to threads like this one.

[scottinnj]

Scott, its really good to see you on the board. Welcome back and I know your voice will bring some reason to threads like this one.

Thanks dude, it's always good to come back home. I just wish you and I could sit together at a Brewers-Phillies game, keep score and have a good conversation with each face-to-face.

BTW, Jamie Moyer for the Hall of Fame. Only one of 10 lefties to win 250 games-that's something. I really enjoyed watching that today.

[Suspect Chin]

Thanks dude, it's always good to come back home. I just wish you and I could sit together at a Brewers-Phillies game, keep score and have a good conversation with each face-to-face.

BTW, Jamie Moyer for the Hall of Fame. Only one of 10 lefties to win 250 games-that's something. I really enjoyed watching that today.

They'll induct him as a cubhttp://www.dr4b.org/pictures/Baseball/Cards/moyer.JPG

[scottinnj]

They'll induct him as a cub.

Fine with me. In the end, it's about the man, not the club. What a great game baseball is!

[Suspect Chin]

Fine with me. In the end, it's about the man, not the club. What a great game baseball is!

I'm just busting balls, its not fun when you agree with me! Jaime Moyer is definitely one of the greats, I loved watching him pitch in the World Series last year.

[epo]

Somebody in the media is about to get some stink all over themselves on this one:

O'Reilly's campaign against murdered doctor (http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2009/05/31/tiller/)
The Fox News star had compared Tiller to a Nazi, called him a "baby killer," and warned of "Judgment Day"

When his show airs tomorrow, Bill O'Reilly will most certainly decry the death of Kansas doctor George Tiller, who was killed Sunday while attending church services with his wife. Tiller, O'Reilly will say, was a man who was guilty of barbaric acts, but a civilized society does not resort to lawless murder, even against its worst members. And O'Reilly, we can assume, will genuinely mean this.

But there's no other person who bears as much responsibility for the characterization of Tiller as a savage on the loose, killing babies willy-nilly thanks to the collusion of would-be sophisticated cultural elites, a bought-and-paid-for governor and scofflaw secular journalists. Tiller's name first appeared on "The Factor" on Feb. 25, 2005. Since then, O'Reilly and his guest hosts have brought up the doctor on 28 more episodes, including as recently as April 27 of this year. Almost invariably, Tiller is described as "Tiller the Baby Killer."

Link to video of the manner in which O'Reilly talked about Dr. Tiller as "Tiller the Baby Killer". (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-207805210252585417&ei=8vUiSsaeKY-IrwKDwoXTDg&q=o%27reilly+george+tiller&hl=en&client=firefox-a)

[Suspect Chin]

Somebody in the media is about to get some stink all over themselves on this one:

O'Reilly's campaign against murdered doctor (http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2009/05/31/tiller/)
The Fox News star had compared Tiller to a Nazi, called him a "baby killer," and warned of "Judgment Day"



Link to video of the manner in which O'Reilly talked about Dr. Tiller as "Tiller the Baby Killer". (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-207805210252585417&ei=8vUiSsaeKY-IrwKDwoXTDg&q=o%27reilly+george+tiller&hl=en&client=firefox-a)

Well he has killed many babies, so 'baby killer' isn't that inaccurate of a moniker. I doubt Bill O'Reilly, like him or not, called for him to murdered, however.

[epo]

Well he has killed many babies, so 'baby killer' isn't that inaccurate of a moniker. I doubt Bill O'Reilly, like him or not, called for him to murdered, however.

No O'Reilly didn't call for his murder, that would be ridiculous. But it could put him in that weird "Nancy Grace/Melinda Duckett" zone, where you really aren't a person that many viewers can't respect anymore.

I'll be interested to see how much traction that angle of the Tiller story gets.

[CountryBob]

Why any doctor would risk their life over performing abortions is insane in itself. If I knew I was on some groups radar - I would quit and start being a vetenarian.

Also, it shocks me that I dont have an opinion on abortion either way. Kind of makes it easy to not be passionate for something for a change.

[scottinnj]

Also, it shocks me that I dont have an opinion on abortion either way.

Don't be.

Be relieved.

Having an opinion either way is nothing but a headache, trust me.

[scottinnj]

Somebody in the media is about to get some stink all over themselves on this one:

O'Reilly's campaign against murdered doctor (http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2009/05/31/tiller/)
The Fox News star had compared Tiller to a Nazi, called him a "baby killer," and warned of "Judgment Day"



Can't wait for Miller Time tonight baby! Woo-Hoo!

I'm actually very curious to see if 36 hours is enough time for O'Reilly to come up with enough to back-pedal out of this one. Like others said, he never called for his death, but I wonder how he feels about nationalizing "Tiller the baby killer" now that Dr. Tiller is dead.

[tele7]

That's crossing the line man

[Serpico1103]

Why any doctor would risk their life over performing abortions is insane in itself. If I knew I was on some groups radar - I would quit and start being a vetenarian.
Also, it shocks me that I dont have an opinion on abortion either way. Kind of makes it easy to not be passionate for something for a change.

Maybe he believes that those women have a right, and he is willing to risk his life to ensure their right is protected. Since, late term abortions are very rare, I don't think it's a profit motive. It might be simply, "I'll do it because you say I can't." Or again, because he thinks he is serving freedom in his own way.

The abortion issue, and especially the late term abortion issue, is just a tool to manipulate the herd. Babies die every day from curable diseases. But, malaria vaccine doesn't rouse passion like abortion does, so the church and the radical right focuses on abortion.

If you spend money on luxury items while millions of children are starving and dying how does God view that?
Actually asking.

[scottinnj]

If you spend money on luxury items while millions of children are starving and dying how does God view that?
Actually asking.

I have problems with that question, for I see a lot of Christian leaders living in luxury while preaching about tithing (10% of your pay to the church as offering) and sacrificing in order to have enough to give to the poor.

I'm speaking for the Protestant side of this question, I'm not Catholic so someone who is should answer for them.

What I've been taught is to live within your means. Try to save some of your money and tithe some of your money to the church you attend. Buy what you need. Things like vacations and items for recreation (sporting equipment, entertainment systems, hobby materials, etc.) are considered fine just as long as you go by the "live within your means" saying.
If we are able to do these types of things, then there will be money saved for emergencies, and who hasn't had those? There will be money for giving to the poor, or your neighbors in need and such.

If you do see a pastor or reverend on TV telling you to give to his ministry and the Lord will "bless" you with financial freedom-change the channel. It is a "false prophet"

[KnoxHarrington]

Maybe he believes that those women have a right, and he is willing to risk his life to ensure their right is protected. Since, late term abortions are very rare, I don't think it's a profit motive. It might be simply, "I'll do it because you say I can't." Or again, because he thinks he is serving freedom in his own way.

The abortion issue, and especially the late term abortion issue, is just a tool to manipulate the herd. Babies die every day from curable diseases. But, malaria vaccine doesn't rouse passion like abortion does, so the church and the radical right focuses on abortion.

If you spend money on luxury items while millions of children are starving and dying how does God view that?
Actually asking.

Late-term abortion is a good wedge for the abortion issue, because you can horrify people who might be sort of on the fence about it with gross details of how a cute little baby's skull gets caved in and then it's yanked out of the mother. You can use it to say "Look at what these awful people support!"

Never mind that it's rare, and is not done electively. It is done in cases where the fetus is pretty much dead already, and allowing the pregnancy to come to term raises severe risks for the mother as well.

But, hey, you can make up a bullshit term like "partial birth abortion" to demonize it and raise some cash.

[Suspect Chin]

But, hey, you can make up a bullshit term like "partial birth abortion" to demonize it and raise some cash.

What is so bad about the term "partial birth abortion"? Pro-choice vs. Pro-life aside, it is very accurate term.

Pro-life people say the medical term "intact dilation and extraction" confuses and masks the truth.

Pro-choice people say the term is used to horrify those that are on the fence.

I think it is an honest and accurate term.

[Serpico1103]

What is so bad about the term "partial birth abortion"? Pro-choice vs. Pro-life aside, it is very accurate term.

Pro-life people say the medical term "intact dilation and extraction" confuses and masks the truth.

Pro-choice people say the term is used to horrify those that are on the fence.

I think it is an honest and accurate term.

Look up who coined the term, and you will find the answer on how "accurate" it is.

Sorry, if a medical term is so confusing that it requires you to look up the procedure, before you load your rifle and kill someone. I guess you have to pawn your computer to buy the sniper scope. If you are adamant about an issue, leave the buzzwords out of it. Unfortunately, the herd loves them.

[Suspect Chin]

Look up who coined the term, and you will find the answer on how "accurate" it is.

Sorry, if a medical term is so confusing that it requires you to look up the procedure, before you load your rifle and kill someone. I guess you have to pawn your computer to buy the sniper scope. If you are adamant about an issue, leave the buzzwords out of it. Unfortunately, the herd loves them.

Relax buddy or someone might think you're the extremist.

Regardless of who coined it, the term is accurate and I have looked it up. The baby is indeed partially born (its legs and torso are out of the mother's body).

I'm not arguing anti-abortion here I'm just throwing out facts.

[TheMojoPin]

Relax buddy or someone might think you're the extremist.

Regardless of who coined it, the term is accurate and I have looked it up. The baby is indeed partially born (its legs and torso are out of the mother's body).

I'm not arguing anti-abortion here I'm just throwing out facts.

The terminology implies that a healthy child is being born that has any kind of a chance of surviving. In almost all cases, that's simply not the case. It's typically a damaged fetus that is posing a health risk to the mother. It's implying that a birth is taking place, which in turn implies that a viable human being is being born.

[TheMojoPin]

Sorry, if a medical term is so confusing that it requires you to look up the procedure, before you load your rifle and kill someone. I guess you have to pawn your computer to buy the sniper scope.

That's really unecessary and insulting.

[Suspect Chin]

The terminology implies that a healthy child is being born that has any kind of a chance of surviving. In almost all cases, that's simply not the case. It's typically a damaged fetus that is posing a health risk to the mother. It's implying that a birth is taking place, which in turn implies that a viable human being is being born.

Yes some uninformed people may interpret the term that way, and of course, the pro-lifers bank on that happening, which is why they propagate the term. However, the term in its plainest sense is accurate.

[TheMojoPin]

Yes some uninformed people may interpret the term that way, and of course, the pro-lifers bank on that happening, which is why they propagate the term. However, the term in its plainest sense is accurate.

I guess. Birth kind of hinges on an actual baby being born, and this really isn't that at all.

[earthbrown]

IDK, proceedure is inhumane at best....


Liberals dont like capital punishment cause it is cruel and unusual, but filling the amniotic sac with saline killing the fetus, is ok.... huh....

I dont really care about abortion, just see this procedure as barbaric.


K

[Suspect Chin]

IDK, proceedure is inhumane at best....


Liberals dont like capital punishment cause it is cruel and unusual, but filling the amniotic sac with saline killing the fetus, is ok.... huh....

I dont really care about abortion, just see this procedure as barbaric.


K

I find it to be less barbaric than a baby doomed to a life of crushing health problems.

[TheMojoPin]

I dont really care about abortion, just see this procedure as barbaric.

The latter is pretty much the opposite of not caring.

[TheMojoPin]

I find it to be less barbaric than a baby doomed to a life of crushing health problems.

Or the mother being killed or seriously hurt by the pregnancy/birth.

[Suspect Chin]

My girl has always been really religious and pro-life in all circumstances, but she has spent the last year as an RN at a children's hospital on a floor with kids that have unbelievable health problems and will never walk, think, eat, use bathroom, or breath normally. Now she is in full support of abortion in these sorts of cases.

Why doom the kid and the parents to a terrible life because of some religious whim or because you think your religious friends will look down on you?

[earthbrown]

I find it to be less barbaric than a baby doomed to a life of crushing health problems.

not all of the late terms are for these things you speak.


K

[earthbrown]

The latter is pretty much the opposite of not caring.

I am splitting hairs...i could give a shit about a 1st trimester abortion or RU486, dont really care about late-term, just feel it is barbaric.

I also dont agree that killing the doctor is excusable.

K

[Suspect Chin]

not all of the late terms are for these things you speak.


K

The legal ones are. They tried to prosecute this guy several times but never succeeded. It is very difficult to have this procedure approved and it isn't going to happen for some poor chick who just decided she didn't want a baby. At least not legally.

[TheMojoPin]

I am splitting hairs...i could give a shit about a 1st trimester abortion or RU486, dont really care about late-term, just feel it is barbaric.

Why is it barbaric if it's being done to save the mother? The vast majority of them are done for reasons along those lines. Legal late term abortions are done only when there is a major health risk involved. These aren't people who want to get rid of their child.

[angrymissy]

Earlier in this thread I said there were clinics all over the country that will terminate for fetal defect, and I was wrong, and it's saddening to me. I used to volunteer as an escort (walk the patients from their cars into the building due to the protesters) at a clinic that performed late term abortion. They, as well as several other clinics in NY did termination for fetal defect, it was very sad when those people came in (and the protestors didn't discriminate). I also saw them turn away people that were 1 day over the limit for an elective abortion. This was 1999/2000. It appears due to the increase in violence and Bush tightening up laws, clinics have stopped performing a very necessary procedure for women, and that's horrible.

I can only hope that women can get their personal OB/GYN to perform these procedures, and that they're not being forced to travel to Kansas or Colorado.

People want to vilify Tiller, but after being shot before, he continued to work and provide this service for women, even though his life was in danger. They need to come down hard on his killer.

And yeah, the killer was a member of Operation Rescue, surprise surprise.

After reading this article on CNN, there are still plenty of wackjobs who believe killing in this manner is justified.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/06/01/kansas.doctor.killed.charges/index.html

[A.J.]

I'd love to hear Operation Rescue's position on who is to pay for/raise all these precious lives they want to save.

[epo]

Serious question: Are or should members of Operation Rescue be dubbed domestic terrorists?

[Furtherman]

The anti-abortion issue is an illogical fight. Abortion has always occurred in the most primitive to the most civilized society. Always has been, always will be. The mental deficiency of religious zealots is never more highlighted than in matters such as this murder.

[A.J.]

Serious question: Are or should members of Operation Rescue be dubbed domestic terrorists?

I think so. Along with those douchebag environmentalists that burn homes and trash car dealerships.

If they're not, then gangs should be.

[angrymissy]

Serious question: Are or should members of Operation Rescue be dubbed domestic terrorists?

Absolutely. They are the fringe of the fringe. It will never happen though. These people too:

And in Iowa, Dan Holman, of the anti-abortion group Missionaries to the Preborn, told CNN that Tiller's death was something to "cheer."

"I was cheered by it, because I knew he wouldn't be killing any more babies," Holman said.

Holman protested a May 17 speech by President Obama in which the president urged Americans to find common ground on abortion. He told CNN that "all abortionists are deserving of death, and they are not the only ones. There are politicians and judges, and others who support this murder are also deserving of death."

Asked to name names, he said, "George Bush, Barack Obama -- any politician that gives our tax money to Planned Parenthood and organizations that kill babies or participate in the killing of children deserve the same penalty."

[Misteriosa]

Dr. Tiller provided an invaluable service for women's health. he provided a service that only a few other doctors in the COUNTRY provided. the partial birth/late term abortions he performed were only by referral, and these had to be signed off on by two doctors (if what i remember is correct). you couldnt just walk up and say, "my husband left me, i want an abortion". Dr. Tiller took those in the most need. they were women whose lives were in danger because the child they were carrying would kill them or they were carrying children whose, as another poster noted, lives would consist crushing disease and deformities and only found out late in the pregnancy.

the fact that this doctor still continue to practice after being shot twice and having his office bombed (and most recently heavily vandalized) just shows the conviction that he had in providing these women with a chance. Dr. Tiller knew that if they came to him, its because there was absolutely and literally no where else to turn.

what people also seem to forget is that a man was gunned down in his own church, a place that was supposed to be sancutary.

what i keep thinking about when i think of the pro-life/anti choice movement is: love the fetus, hate the child. any woman would tell you, she does not *want* to kill her baby. abortion is a very personal choice. pro-choice supporters are just that - they are for the opportunity to make that personal choice. i wouldnt want to have that decision made for me by someone else.

[TjM]

Serious question: Are or should members of Operation Rescue be dubbed domestic terrorists?

Yes

[badmonkey]

Serious question: Are or should members of Operation Rescue be dubbed domestic terrorists?

This guy easily. Operation Rescue if they encourage murdering abortion doctors as a solution to their grievances. Absolutely.

I think so. Along with those douchebag environmentalists that burn homes and trash car dealerships.

If they're not, then gangs should be.

Exactly. I think the DC snipers should have been charged with domestic terrorism as well.

[booster11373]

This what I love about religious people, A Muslim blows themselves up and apologists come out and say, no no that's not what the religion is about, an abortion provider is murdered in a church and apologists come out and say no no that's not what the religion is about.

I wonder how the zealots feel about the apologists, maybe they think that they are the one who don't have the religion right

Plus Bill O'Reilly is a silly irrelevant man who basically glossed over his involvement in this whole affair and I hope people remember this the next time him or someone like him comes out and complains how movies, music or videogames are having a negitive effect on our culture and children because his take was that anything said by him or his employer couldnt have had any effect on influencing the murder of Tiller "the baby killier"

[badmonkey]

This what I love about religious people, A Muslim blows themselves up and apologists come out and say, no no that's not what the religion is about, an abortion provider is murdered in a church and apologists come out and say no no that's not what the religion is about.

I wonder how the zealots feel about the apologists, maybe they think that they are the one who don't have the religion right

Plus Bill O'Reilly is a silly irrelevant man who basically glossed over his involvement in this whole affair and I hope people remember this the next time him or someone like him comes out and complains how movies, music or videogames are having a negitive effect on our culture and children because his take was that anything said by him or his employer couldnt have had any effect on influencing the murder of Tiller "the baby killier"

This guy didn't need Bill O'Reilly to tell him to do anything. He's a nutjob that probably saw the murder of the abortion doctor through the same old hypothetical as "If you went back in time and met a young Adolf Hitler and he wasn't yet the monster that you knew he would become, would it be right to kill him to prevent it?" Apparently this guy's answer was yes. I'm not comparing anybody to Hitler. The shooter was obviously an extremist or we wouldn't be talking about him today, as he would still just be some random anti-abortion protester standing somewhere waving a sign.

[angrymissy]

It truly makes me sick to see what has changed in the past 8 years in regards to abortion rights. I didn't realize how many providers no longer offer termination for fetal defect. The poor woman in this article had to travel all the way to Kansas from the East Coast to obtain an abortion after her fetus was diagnosed with a condition that would cause it's death in utero or shortly after birth. Just horrible. 8 years ago there were several clinics in NY aloen that performed this procedure.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/06/02/opinion/main5057063.shtml

Everyone makes comments like "Oh, it will never be overturned", but slowly things like this slip under the radar.

[booster11373]

It truly makes me sick to see what has changed in the past 8 years in regards to abortion rights. I didn't realize how many providers no longer offer termination for fetal defect. The poor woman in this article had to travel all the way to Kansas from the East Coast to obtain an abortion after her fetus was diagnosed with a condition that would cause it's death in utero or shortly after birth. Just horrible. 8 years ago there were several clinics in NY aloen that performed this procedure.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/06/02/opinion/main5057063.shtml

Everyone makes comments like "Oh, it will never be overturned", but slowly things like this slip under the radar.

That has been the religious rights goal for sometime now, just slowly chipping away and making it so burdensome to both providers and patients

[Serpico1103]

That's really unecessary and insulting.

Insulting? Sure. Unnecessary? I disagree.

If you need a catchy phrase to understand or back a movement, you are an idiot.

[badmonkey]

Insulting? Sure. Unnecessary? I disagree.

If you need a catchy phrase to understand or back a movement, you are an idiot.

You mean like "No War for Oil", "Not In My Name", "Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy", "Bush Lied, People Died", "Keep Your Rosaries off my Ovaries", "Yes We Can", "undocumented workers", and "Bush Crime Family"?

[angrymissy]

You mean like "No War for Oil", "Not In My Name", "Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy", "Bush Lied, People Died", "Keep Your Rosaries off my Ovaries", "Yes We Can", "undocumented workers", and "Bush Crime Family"?

We're talking about a medical procedure. "Partial Birth Abortion" is it is not a medical term.

[Suspect Chin]

We're talking about a medical procedure. "Partial Birth Abortion" is it is not a medical term.

Neither is 'back surgery' or 'knee replacement' but we still use those terms everyday because they are easier to understand and they are every bit as accurate as the term 'partial birth abortion'.

You seem to think that if we all stop saying the term, that the opposition to it will go away. I think people are smart enough to understand what the procedure is without the catch phrase.

[angrymissy]

Neither is 'back surgery' or 'knee replacement' but we still use those terms everyday because they are easier to understand and they are every bit as accurate as the term 'partial birth abortion'.

You seem to think that if we all stop saying the term, that the opposition to it will go away. I think people are smart enough to understand what the procedure is without the catch phrase.

How about just abortion. It's not like you call knee replacement Peel Back The Skin and Pop Out the Bad Knee Surgery. ID&X can be performed without any part of the fetus exiting the birth canal, is it then "Partial Birth Abortion"? D&E just rips apart the fetus before it comes out, is that "Partial Birth Abortion"? Inducing labor makes the entire fetus come out, is that "Birth Abortion"?

No one should be putting terms that are not medically defined and or recognized into legislation.

[badmonkey]

Insulting? Sure. Unnecessary? I disagree.

If you need a catchy phrase to understand or back a movement, you are an idiot.

We're talking about a medical procedure. "Partial Birth Abortion" is it is not a medical term.

Serpico was not talking about medical procedures. He was being deliberately insulting based on the use of what he called a "catchy phrase" by people who disagree with the procedure. I just pointed out the hypocrisy by throwing the "catchy phrases" that he likes back at him. I did not to attempt to say that any descriptive term for a medical procedure used by either side is or is not a valid name.

I will address that for you if you like in the most honest way I think I can. I'm no doctor so without having read the definition here in this thread, the medical term "intact dilation and extraction" could mean any number of things from the removal of a tumor without breaking it to the removal of a splinter from your pupil. If you said "cervical dilation and intact fetal extraction" I'd probably have more of a clue what you were talking about. Neither side is exactly honest with the names they use when discussing this procedure and when you combine that with the heated emotions surrounding the issue, you just end up with screaming assholes on both sides with zero clue what they're talking about. If everybody wants to have an honest debate on the subject, maybe including the words that give actual meaning to "partial birth abortion" and "intact dilation and extraction" would be a good start.

[Suspect Chin]

How about just abortion. It's not like you call knee replacement Peel Back The Skin and Pop Out the Bad Knee Surgery. ID&X can be performed without any part of the fetus exiting the birth canal, is it then "Partial Birth Abortion"? D&E just rips apart the fetus before it comes out, is that "Partial Birth Abortion"? Inducing labor makes the entire fetus come out, is that "Birth Abortion"?

No one should be putting terms that are not medically defined and or recognized into legislation.

I think its safe to assume that in the actual legislation, that the proper medical term is used.

I think it is wise to differentiate between the different types of abortion and not lump all of them under the one heading. I don't think anyone here would want to confuse a partial birth abortion with one that occurs in the first trimester.

I agree that there are many wackos that hear the term and use it to demonize the entire practice but sweeping one term under the rug isn't going to make them all go away.

[angrymissy]

I think its safe to assume that in the actual legislation, that the proper medical term is used.

I think it is wise to differentiate between the different types of abortion and not lump all of them under the one heading. I don't think anyone here would want to confuse a partial birth abortion with one that occurs in the first trimester.

I agree that there are many wackos that hear the term and use it to demonize the entire practice but sweeping one term under the rug isn't going to make them all go away.

No, it's not. "Partial Birth Abortion Act". That's why the legislation was challenged, because it was so vague it could be applied to abortions being performed as early as 12 weeks.

[angrymissy]

Serpico was not talking about medical procedures. He was being deliberately insulting based on the use of what he called a "catchy phrase" by people who disagree with the procedure. I just pointed out the hypocrisy by throwing the "catchy phrases" that he likes back at him. I did not to attempt to say that any descriptive term for a medical procedure used by either side is or is not a valid name.

I will address that for you if you like in the most honest way I think I can. I'm no doctor so without having read the definition here in this thread, the medical term "intact dilation and extraction" could mean any number of things from the removal of a tumor without breaking it to the removal of a splinter from your pupil. If you said "cervical dilation and intact fetal extraction" I'd probably have more of a clue what you were talking about. Neither side is exactly honest with the names they use when discussing this procedure and when you combine that with the heated emotions surrounding the issue, you just end up with screaming assholes on both sides with zero clue what they're talking about. If everybody wants to have an honest debate on the subject, maybe including the words that give actual meaning to "partial birth abortion" and "intact dilation and extraction" would be a good start.

Intact Dilation and Extraction is the name of the procedure, and could not be confused with anything else. That's exactly what it is called by the doctor performing the procedure.

The problem with "Partial Birth Abortion" is the way they worded their legislation. It was worded in a way that it could apply to abortions as early as 12 weeks.

The sad thing is, ID&X is what they use for patients terminating for fetal defect so they can have an intact fetus to mourn over/autopsy if they wish.

Call it "Late Term Abortion" call it "Third Trimester Abortion", if a more general term is needed.

[badmonkey]

Intact Dilation and Extraction is the name of the procedure, and could not be confused with anything else by a medical professional. That's exactly what it is called by the doctor performing the procedure.

The problem with "Partial Birth Abortion" is the way they worded their legislation. It was worded in a way that it could apply to abortions as early as 12 weeks.

The sad thing is, ID&X is what they use for patients terminating for fetal defect so they can have an intact fetus to mourn over/autopsy if they wish.

Call it "Late Term Abortion" call it "Third Trimester Abortion", if a more general term is needed.

Fixed the part that you don't seem to understand. Everybody is not surrounded by the technical terms that doctors use. I work on the internet but if I wanted to tell Average Joe Public about an internet connection issue between california and new york, I wouldn't say that a there was an issue with packetloss over BGP caused by low light levels from peer equipment over the cross connect between the whiterock gear and our border router and expect that he'd have any idea wtf I was talking about.

You said you worked in an abortion clinic as a volunteer escorting women to their cars. You have firsthand knowledge and experience with the use of technical terms used by doctors concerning this procedure that are abbreviated for doctor's use but not informative to Average Joe Public. Everybody else has to look that term up. It's dishonest on both sides to expect everybody to know exactly what they're talking about based on 3 words. It don't matter if the words are "partial birth abortion" or "Intact Dilation & Extraction".

I've heard both "Late Term Abortion" and "Third Trimester Abortion" used as well. I think most people can at least grasp the rough concepts with those. Everybody understandings the basics of what an abortion is even if they don't know all the different types of procedures. When the word abortion is part of the name of a procedure, everybody says "yeah, i know what that is." You could say you were going to have an Intact Dilation & Extraction procedure to Joe Public and even if he's anti-abortion, would probably hope you feel better because he has no idea you're having an abortion.

[Suspect Chin]

You nailed it. Both sides are trying to mask the truth. IDX is too vague to be understood and PBA is too extreme to incorporate all possibilities.

[angrymissy]

Fixed the part that you don't seem to understand. Everybody is not surrounded by the technical terms that doctors use. I work on the internet but if I wanted to tell Average Joe Public about an internet connection issue between california and new york, I wouldn't say that a there was an issue with packetloss over BGP caused by low light levels from peer equipment over the cross connect between the whiterock gear and our border router and expect that he'd have any idea wtf I was talking about.

You said you worked in an abortion clinic as a volunteer escorting women to their cars. You have firsthand knowledge and experience with the use of technical terms used by doctors concerning this procedure that are abbreviated for doctor's use but not informative to Average Joe Public. Everybody else has to look that term up. It's dishonest on both sides to expect everybody to know exactly what they're talking about based on 3 words. It don't matter if the words are "partial birth abortion" or "Intact Dilation & Extraction".

I've heard both "Late Term Abortion" and "Third Trimester Abortion" used as well. I think most people can at least grasp the rough concepts with those. Everybody understandings the basics of what an abortion is even if they don't know all the different types of procedures. When the word abortion is part of the name of a procedure, everybody says "yeah, i know what that is." You could say you were going to have an Intact Dilation & Extraction procedure to Joe Public and even if he's anti-abortion, would probably hope you feel better because he has no idea you're having an abortion.

Abortion, Late Term Abortion, 3rd Trimester Abortion, fine and dandy with me. Partial Birth Abortion is vague and used to describe a variety of procedures, which are not all even performed in the 3rd Trimester.

A term that is not recognized or used by doctors should not be a part of legislation.

[Suspect Chin]

Abortion, Late Term Abortion, 3rd Trimester Abortion, fine and dandy with me. Partial Birth Abortion is vague and used to describe a variety of procedures, which are not all even performed in the 3rd Trimester.

A term that is not recognized or used by doctors should not be a part of legislation.

Late Term Abortion, 3rd Trimester Abortion aren't recognized or used by doctors either and are in fact far less precise or honest than PBA.

[Suspect Chin]

Partial birth abortion refers only to IDX which is only performed in the late stages of pregnancy. Any other procedures confused with partial birth abortion are mistakenly labeled.

[Serpico1103]

You mean like "No War for Oil", "Not In My Name", "Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy", "Bush Lied, People Died", "Keep Your Rosaries off my Ovaries", "Yes We Can", "undocumented workers", and "Bush Crime Family"?

Poor analogy.
Someone said that the medical term was too confusing, so "partial birth abortion" makes it easy for them to understand. To understand what? The medical procedure?
If you don't understand the procedure, you don't understand what you are backing. So, how does dumbing down the name help?

"Partial Birth Abortion" was coined by an abortion opponent, so, do you think it was meant as a neutral term, or one to sway the herd?

Yes, if you say, I don't understand about international conflicts over petroleum products, but I can carry a sign that says "No war for oil." Yes. You are an idiot.

[Suspect Chin]

Poor analogy.
Someone said that the medical term was too confusing, so "partial birth abortion" makes it easy for them to understand. To understand what? The medical procedure?
If you don't understand the procedure, you don't understand what you are backing. So, how does dumbing down the name help?

"Partial Birth Abortion" was coined by an abortion opponent, so, do you think it was meant as a neutral term, or one to sway the herd?

Yes, if you say, I don't understand about international conflicts over petroleum products, but I can carry a sign that says "No war for oil." Yes. You are an idiot.

For the layperson, Partial Birth Abortion is sufficient to describe the procedure. Do you need to know every step of a total knee replacement in order to grasp what the procedure entails?

I think his point was that every movement or political position has catch phrases.

[Drunky McBetidont]

For the layperson, Partial Birth Abortion is sufficient to describe the procedure. Do you need to know every step of a total knee replacement in order to grasp what the procedure entails?

I think his point was that every movement or political position has catch phrases.

so glad you joined the board. i would be lost without you. can we have gay sex and then abort our ass babies?

[Suspect Chin]

so glad you joined the board. i would be lost without you. can we have gay sex and then abort our ass babies?

What the hell is your problem? Don't rush in here out of nowhere and attack me.

[angrymissy]

Partial birth abortion refers only to IDX which is only performed in the late stages of pregnancy. Any other procedures confused with partial birth abortion are mistakenly labeled.

No, it didn't specifically refer to ID&X, that's the problem.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/99-830.ZS.html

Doctors now inject the fetus with drugs prior to the procedure. It's not "Partial Birth Abortion" if you do that, apparently.

I just want women to get the appropriate health care for their situation as deemed by their doctor.

[Suspect Chin]

No, it didn't specifically refer to ID&X, that's the problem.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/99-830.ZS.html

Doctors now inject the fetus with drugs prior to the procedure. It's not "Partial Birth Abortion" if you do that, apparently.

I just want women to get the appropriate health care for their situation as deemed by their doctor.

You're right I should have said D&E instead of just D&X but that is not the basis of my argument.

My argument is simply that in colloquial circumstances, the term Partial Birth Abortion is accurate and true. There is no reason to sweep it under the rug. It works in everyday language to describe the procedure. As you mentioned, in the legislature, the definition of the term should more precise, and it seems in the document you linked to, that the Supreme Court has taken measures to clarify the legal use of the term.

To be clear, I will again state that I support the availability of the choice to have a partial birth abortion. However, I think dismissing the term is deliberately misleading the public from knowing the true nature of the procedure.

[Suspect Chin]

Thank you for the link by the way, it was an interesting read.

[Serpico1103]

For the layperson, Partial Birth Abortion is sufficient to describe the procedure. Do you need to know every step of a total knee replacement in order to grasp what the procedure entails?

I think his point was that every movement or political position has catch phrases.

I would need to know the procedure if I was going to protest that it was an immoral procedure.
No, you don't need to know the procedure for everyday life, yes, you need to know the procedure, if you claim that it is immoral and against your beliefs. Understand the difference?

[Suspect Chin]

I would need to know the procedure if I was going to protest that it was an immoral procedure.
No, you don't need to know the procedure for everyday life, yes, you need to know the procedure, if you claim that it is immoral and against your beliefs. Understand the difference?

Unless you believe that abortion is wrong no matter what, then the differences between the procedures is irrelevant. I think it is safe to assume that the people protesting are against abortion all together.

[Serpico1103]

Unless you believe that abortion is wrong no matter what, then the differences between the procedures is irrelevant. I think it is safe to assume that the people protesting are against abortion all together.



Again, a anti-abortion advocate coined the term. It's an anti-abortion term. Use it, but know the connotation it carries.

[A.J.]

"Bush Crime Family"

I never heard that one before. I like it!

[badmonkey]

I never heard that one before. I like it!

I subjected myself to Air America a few times. It was part of their imaging.

[NewYorkDragons80]

Why doom the kid and the parents to a terrible life because of some religious whim or because you think your religious friends will look down on you?

What about the secular goal of giving life the benefit of the doubt if the legal status of a life is up in the air?

[TheMojoPin]

What about the secular goal of giving life the benefit of the doubt if the legal status of a life is up in the air?

Like giving the life of the mother the benefit of the doubt?

[foodcourtdruide]

I subjected myself to Air America a few times. It was part of their imaging.

I can't stand Stephanie Miller or Bill Press. I kind of like The Young Turks though.

[furie]

O'Reilly in 2006: 'If I could get my hands on Tiller, well, you know' (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=9ea_1243961873)

[NewYorkDragons80]

Like giving the life of the mother the benefit of the doubt?

In the instances when her life is at risk, abso-damn-lutely!

[Jujubees2]

What about the secular goal of giving life the benefit of the doubt if the legal status of a life is up in the air?

How about the quality of said life?

[NewYorkDragons80]

How about the quality of said life?

I was addressing the argument that those against abortion are motivated by religion. As for the quality of life, if a fetus has the same value as any other human life, which I tend to believe, then allow that individual to make that determination after they are born.

[angrymissy]

Oh yeah, Operation Rescue acting is if they had no part in this. Sure... Heard on the radio this AM, that the post it they found in the suspects car with the name and phone number of an Operation Rescue person was further investigated.

Apparently the people at Operation Rescue gave the shooter detailed information about Tiller, his address, his church, his schedule, etc. They said "We just answered his questions. No one could have known what he'd do".

And the woman who gave him this information served time in prison for planning clinic bombings.

[Serpico1103]

Oh yeah, Operation Rescue acting is if they had no part in this. Sure... Heard on the radio this AM, that the post it they found in the suspects car with the name and phone number of an Operation Rescue person was further investigated.

Apparently the people at Operation Rescue gave the shooter detailed information about Tiller, his address, his church, his schedule, etc. They said "We just answered his questions. No one could have known what he'd do".

And the woman who gave him this information served time in prison for planning clinic bombings.

I wonder if Hannity will do another special on domestic terrorists like he did for Bill Ayers, for Operation Rescue. But Operation Rescue is just a good church group right?

[keithy_19]

Tiller is/was a douche.

The person who killed him is a douche and should be tried to the full extent of the law.

[TheMojoPin]

Tiller is/was a douche.

Why?

[brettmojo]

Tiller is/was a douche.

The person who killed him is a douche and should be tried to the full extent of the law.

Why?
Because zombie Jesus says so.

[angrymissy]

Tiller is/was a douche.

The person who killed him is a douche and should be tried to the full extent of the law.

Providing necessary medical procedures to women in need when it was incredibly dangerous for him to do so, and ultimately got him killed, makes him a douche?

Right.

Susan Hill, President of the National Women's Health Foundation, who knew Dr. Tiller for over two decades and referred girls and women to his clinic, said in a phone interview, "We always sent the really tragic cases to Tiller." Those included women diagnosed with cancer who needed abortions to qualify for chemotherapy, women who learned late in their pregnancies that their wanted babies had fatal illnesses, and rape victims so young they didn't realize they were pregnant for months. "We sent him 11-year-olds, 12-year-olds who were way too far along for anybody [else] to see," said Hill. "Eleven-year-olds don't tell anybody. Sometimes they don't even know they've had a period."

I hope something like that never happens to someone you love, because there is one less "douche" in this country to help them.

[KnoxHarrington]

Providing necessary medical procedures to women in need when it was incredibly dangerous for him to do so, and ultimately got him killed, makes him a douche?

Right.



I hope something like that never happens to someone you love, because there is one less "douche" in this country to help them.

Medical colleges have almost completely stopped teaching late-term abortion procedures.

And you can't say this enough: WOMEN ONLY GET THIRD TRIMESTER ABORTIONS IN EXTREME CIRCUMSTANCES!

[epo]

Medical colleges have almost completely stopped teaching late-term abortion procedures.

And you can't say this enough: WOMEN ONLY GET THIRD TRIMESTER ABORTIONS IN EXTREME CIRCUMSTANCES!

Physicians don't even want to make late-term abortions a part of their practice...not because they have a moral issue...but rather they are scared shitless of results like Dr. Tiller got.

Good job of spreading the word of a loving god, you extremist fucks.

[Serpico1103]

Physicians don't even want to make late-term abortions a part of their practice...not because they have a moral issue...but rather they are scared shitless of results like Dr. Tiller got.

Good job of spreading the word of a loving god, you extremist fucks.

Since they have provided food and shelter to all of the world's impoverished, wouldn't God want them to move onto the next issue: abortion.

[silera]

I was addressing the argument that those against abortion are motivated by religion. As for the quality of life, if a fetus has the same value as any other human life, which I tend to believe, then allow that individual to make that determination after they are born.

So, you think a viable option is for a newborn to arrange its own assisted suicide?

[styckx]

The guy is actually having the balls to complain that he is being treated like a criminal.


http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/story/1234808.html

WICHITA | The man accused of killing late-term abortion provider George Tiller says he’s “being treated as a criminal” even though he hasn’t been convicted of anything.

[NewYorkDragons80]

<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Z3koXGHud8U&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Z3koXGHud8U&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>

An interesting take...

[angrymissy]

http://warner.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/04/george-tiller/?ref=opinion

The 9-year-old girl had been raped by her father. She was 18 weeks pregnant. Carrying the baby to term, going through labor and delivery, would have ripped her small body apart.

There was no doctor in her rural Southern town to provide her with an abortion. No area hospital would even consider taking her case.

“He took her for free,” she said. “He kept her three days. He checked her himself every few hours. She and her sister came back to me and said he couldn’t have been more wonderful. That’s just the way he was.”

1 less person to help someone like that.

I cannot understand how anyone would say that child should not have the option of abortion.

[KnoxHarrington]

http://warner.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/04/george-tiller/?ref=opinion





1 less person to help someone like that.

I cannot understand how anyone would say that child should not have the option of abortion.

Because a baby is a miracle of God!

Even when it was produced by a vile hayseed brutally raping his small daughter!

And even if bringing the fetus to term would kill the mother!

And even if the baby did survive that, it would probably be a waterhead!

It's a miracle!

Duh!

[badmonkey]

http://warner.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/04/george-tiller/?ref=opinion





1 less person to help someone like that.

I cannot understand how anyone would say that child should not have the option of abortion.

I agree with you that she should have that option available. It's not the extreme cases of rape and incest that bother most people. It's the ones that have unprotected sex without a worry because "if I get knocked up, I'll just get an abortion" that pisses most people off. There are the "zero tolerance for abortion ever" people on one side, the "I understand it's necessary in some circumstances" people in the middle, and the "abortion anytime all hours free if you can't afford it" on the other side. Like with most things I think most people fall in the middle with the "understand it's necessary in some circumstances" crowd. The extreme poles on this issue are never going to agree.

[booster11373]

I agree with you that she should have that option available. It's not the extreme cases of rape and incest that bother most people. It's the ones that have unprotected sex without a worry because "if I get knocked up, I'll just get an abortion" that pisses most people off. There are the "zero tolerance for abortion ever" people on one side, the "I understand it's necessary in some circumstances" people in the middle, and the "abortion anytime all hours free if you can't afford it" on the other side. Like with most things I think most people fall in the middle with the "understand it's necessary in some circumstances" crowd. The extreme poles on this issue are never going to agree.

Those same people are also against any form of sexual education being taught in schools and are also notoriously anti-tax

They wont inform children/teens about sex other then abstinence and once the kid is around the want to cut any kind of aid program

I would think that they would want to decrease abortion, it would seem a good way to do that would be to increase sexual education

[angrymissy]

I agree with you that she should have that option available. It's not the extreme cases of rape and incest that bother most people. It's the ones that have unprotected sex without a worry because "if I get knocked up, I'll just get an abortion" that pisses most people off. There are the "zero tolerance for abortion ever" people on one side, the "I understand it's necessary in some circumstances" people in the middle, and the "abortion anytime all hours free if you can't afford it" on the other side. Like with most things I think most people fall in the middle with the "understand it's necessary in some circumstances" crowd. The extreme poles on this issue are never going to agree.

I never really understand how people think women just pop into a clinic for an abortion instead of using birth control. Now, I'm sure there are people who have, but an abortion is expensive and painful. And then for the people that do treat abortion in that way, do you think they'd be a good parent? When I hear people use that argument, it just makes me think that people think the woman should be punished with pregnancy to learn a lesson or something.

[underdog]

And then for the people that do treat abortion in that way, do you think they'd be a good parent?

That's always been my thought. If there is actually a woman out there willing to use abortion as birth control, she probably shouldn't have children anyway.

[styckx]

That's always been my thought. If there is actually a woman out there willing to use abortion as birth control, she probably shouldn't have children anyway.

Mostly kids go this route because they can't afford an abortion and afraid to tell their parents they are preggo. I know alone when I went to school I knew of two DIY abortions involving having a friend beat the shit out of a pregnant chicks stomach.

Cattle drugs are the big DIY abortion solution for teens, among others but the cattle drug is the one making the news a lot lately.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/41610652.html

And in one case a girls drink laced w/ the cattle drug to induce abortion.

http://thebulletin.us/articles/2009/05/27/news/local_state/doc4a1539fc8336e728419484.txt

Very sad.

[SP1!]

Suspect found in the case. (http://www.kansascity.com/116/story/1225769.html?storylink=omni_popular)

So the provider was working in his church when this happened? That is seriously fucked up.



Wow.

The more you were to read about this guy the less most will feel sorry for him, granted Im not a 3rd trimester abortion supporter but this guy was scummy, saying its fine to drag a complete formed baby out and kill it because the mother may be depressed? Thats fucking cold.

Abortion is a personal decision but late terms should only be done if there is danger to the woman or a severe congenital defect with the baby. This doctor was pushing for more lax over sight of the reasons women should be allowed these procedures, harm to the mother is one thing but this guy was as sleezy as any ambulance chaser or televangelist.

Still murdering him is wrong, if he is a religious person he would have gotten judged by his god. Personally I believe in reincarnation and people like this come back as slugs.

[Serpico1103]

The more you were to read about this guy the less most will feel sorry for him, granted Im not a 3rd trimester abortion supporter but this guy was scummy, saying its fine to drag a complete formed baby out and kill it because the mother may be depressed? Thats fucking cold.

Abortion is a personal decision but late terms should only be done if there is danger to the woman or a severe congenital defect with the baby. This doctor was pushing for more lax over sight of the reasons women should be allowed these procedures, harm to the mother is one thing but this guy was as sleezy as any ambulance chaser or televangelist.

Still murdering him is wrong, if he is a religious person he would have gotten judged by his god. Personally I believe in reincarnation and people like this come back as slugs.

The problem with making them available to women who have "life threatening" conditions is that, guess who will always be able to find a doctor that will sign off it is a necessary procedure? People with wealth. Leaving poor people to DIY abortions.
The line needs to clear, not on a case by case basis.
If it is allowed it case of rape, what is needed to prove the rape caused the pregnancy? A conviction?
Let women get abortions, save the babies that are dying from the flu, malaria, and malnutrition.

[angrymissy]

The more you were to read about this guy the less most will feel sorry for him, granted Im not a 3rd trimester abortion supporter but this guy was scummy, saying its fine to drag a complete formed baby out and kill it because the mother may be depressed? Thats fucking cold.

Abortion is a personal decision but late terms should only be done if there is danger to the woman or a severe congenital defect with the baby. This doctor was pushing for more lax over sight of the reasons women should be allowed these procedures, harm to the mother is one thing but this guy was as sleezy as any ambulance chaser or televangelist.

Still murdering him is wrong, if he is a religious person he would have gotten judged by his god. Personally I believe in reincarnation and people like this come back as slugs.

3rd trimester, life of the mother or fetal defect, with a second doctors opinion. He was sued twice regarding that second opinion and won both cases.

You should do more reading of the personal stories of the women he's treated that have been coming out in the news lately.

Yeah, women just wait till the third trimester to abort for fun. Several day procedure that really painful and costs thousands of dollars, just because they feel like it.

[Tenbatsuzen]

And in one case a girls drink laced w/ the cattle drug to induce abortion.

http://thebulletin.us/articles/2009/05/27/news/local_state/doc4a1539fc8336e728419484.txt

Very sad.


With the way that story is written, it sounds like the boyfriend and the boyfriend's friend wanted her to get an abortion and she wanted to keep the baby, and they slipped a mickey in her drink.

[Serpico1103]

this guy was as sleezy as any ambulance chaser or televangelist.


That is a pathetic comparison. Those people are doing anything to make a buck. He was a medical doctor who was risking his life and practice to do what he thought was right.
If everyone did what they were willing to die for, we might live in a perfect world.

You may think he was wrong, but do not compare him to people simply chasing a buck.

[KnoxHarrington]

That is a pathetic comparison. Those people are doing anything to make a buck. He was a medical doctor who was risking his life and practice to do what he thought was right.
If everyone did what they were willing to die for, we might live in a perfect world.

You may think he was wrong, but do not compare him to people simply chasing a buck.

My guess is that with the security Tiller had to constantly use at his clinic, he wasn't exactly clearing huge dollars in his practice.

If you're a doctor who wants to make huge dollars, you give rich women tit jobs. You don't provide late-term abortions.

[Pestz4Evah]

Suspect in abortion doctor death warns of violence (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/07/scott-roeder-abortion-doc_n_212346.html)

The man charged with murdering a high-profile abortion doctor claimed from his jail cell Sunday that similar violence was planned around the nation for as long as the procedure remained legal, a threat that comes days after a federal investigation launched into his possible accomplices.

A Justice Department spokesman said the threat was being taken seriously and additional protection had been ordered for abortion clinics last week. But a leader of the anti-abortion movement derided the accused shooter as "a fruit and a lunatic."

Scott Roeder called The Associated Press from the Sedgwick County jail, where he's being held on charges of first-degree murder and aggravated assault in the shooting of Dr. George Tiller one week ago.

"I know there are many other similar events planned around the country as long as abortion remains legal," Roeder said. He would not elaborate.

[angrymissy]

Suspect in abortion doctor death warns of violence (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/07/scott-roeder-abortion-doc_n_212346.html)

Terrorism and should be prosecuted as such.

[styckx]

Suspect in abortion doctor death warns of violence (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/07/scott-roeder-abortion-doc_n_212346.html)

He's probably anticipating copycats and making it seem like any future violence (at the hands of copycats) are the result of his master plans.

[SP1!]

The problem with making them available to women who have "life threatening" conditions is that, guess who will always be able to find a doctor that will sign off it is a necessary procedure? People with wealth. Leaving poor people to DIY abortions.
The line needs to clear, not on a case by case basis.
If it is allowed it case of rape, what is needed to prove the rape caused the pregnancy? A conviction?
Let women get abortions, save the babies that are dying from the flu, malaria, and malnutrition.
Yeah no woman with wealth is getting a 3rd trimester abortion, unless their life is in danger, the main reason not to have kids are because of money issues.

Again, I was talking about 3rd trimester abortions, Im pretty sure she would know before the 3rd trimester whether or not she was raped, you analogies are bull shit.

3rd trimester, life of the mother or fetal defect, with a second doctors opinion. He was sued twice regarding that second opinion and won both cases.

You should do more reading of the personal stories of the women he's treated that have been coming out in the news lately.

Yeah, women just wait till the third trimester to abort for fun. Several day procedure that really painful and costs thousands of dollars, just because they feel like it.
He won both cases because people think that its a womans right for 3rd trimester and abortion, when that is 2 different scenarios than a normal abortion. I have read plenty regarding this person, hes scum, not saying he should have been shot but since he believes in hell he should get to burn for eternity.

That is a pathetic comparison. Those people are doing anything to make a buck. He was a medical doctor who was risking his life and practice to do what he thought was right.
If everyone did what they were willing to die for, we might live in a perfect world.

You may think he was wrong, but do not compare him to people simply chasing a buck.
He was doing whatever he could to make a buck and broaden the reasons for making a buck, he was no better than those people or some fucking shill for late night TV.

Do not sanctify this person and make him think hes some sort of saint, yeah some women will defend him is because they couldn't handle the mess they created and they guy left them so they went to him for a quick fix. Again the 3rd trimester should be not be a quick fix unless the mother or child may die.

It sometimes amazes me how people can so easily be brainwashed, but then judging by the politically correct nation we live in it shouldn't really surprise me once you think about it.

[TheMojoPin]

Yeah no woman with wealth is getting a 3rd trimester abortion, unless their life is in danger, the main reason not to have kids are because of money issues.

Again, I was talking about 3rd trimester abortions, Im pretty sure she would know before the 3rd trimester whether or not she was raped, you analogies are bull shit.

So because of money issues...they wait until the 3rd trimester to have the far more expensive procedure?

Amazing deduction there.

He won both cases because people think that its a womans right for 3rd trimester and abortion, when that is 2 different scenarios than a normal abortion. I have read plenty regarding this person, hes scum, not saying he should have been shot but since he believes in hell he should get to burn for eternity.

How about you actually explain why he is "scum" as opposed to just randomly comparing him to ambulance chasers and not actually backing it up with anything except hyperbole?

He was doing whatever he could to make a buck and broaden the reasons for making a buck, he was no better than those people or some fucking shill for late night TV.

And you're basing this on....?

Do not sanctify this person and make him think hes some sort of saint, yeah some women will defend him is because they couldn't handle the mess they created and they guy left them so they went to him for a quick fix. Again the 3rd trimester should be not be a quick fix unless the mother or child may die.

OK, stay with me on this...

Ready?

Here we go...

IT'S NOT A QUICK FIX.

It's a painful, traumatic and expensive procedure. In no way does anyone with an ounce of logical thought consider a late term abortion to be a "quick fix." The continued insistance that abortion, especially late term ones, are used left and right casually as birth control like they're no big deal is one of the most ludicrous, clueless and offensive things someone can declare in regards to this subject. All it indicates is that the person spouting that garbage has ZERO clue as to what they're talking about.

It sometimes amazes me how people can so easily be brainwashed, but then judging by the politically correct nation we live in it shouldn't really surprise me once you think about it.

Hey, look. The clearly partisan guy is trying to say he's above it all yet again.

[SP1!]

So because of money issues...they wait until the 3rd trimester to have the far more expensive procedure?

Amazing deduction there.That was a response to another post, please read money didnt factor into the equation, some of his procedures were being covered by the state and he was trying to relax laws to get the state to cover a wider range of excuses.

How about you actually explain why he is "scum" as opposed to just randomly comparing him to ambulance chasers and not actually backing it up with anything except hyperbole?

And you're basing this on....?You need to just google him, even once you get past the obvious nut sites there are a lot of informed sites talking about what he was proposing. It was horrendous that he wanted the states to pay for almost all of these. Again read past the headlines to get the full story, if I feel like it I will find a few tomorrow.

OK, stay with me on this...

Ready?

Here we go...

IT'S NOT A QUICK FIX.

It's a painful, traumatic and expensive procedure. In no way does anyone with an ounce of logical thought consider a late term abortion to be a "quick fix." The continued insistance that abortion, especially late term ones, are used left and right casually as birth control like they're no big deal is one of the most ludicrous, clueless and offensive things someone can declare in regards to this subject. All it indicates is that the person spouting that garbage has ZERO clue as to what they're talking about.You can say its not a quick fix but quite a few women use it as such, its used as a solution to a failed relationship or a simple fuck up of a night out with a mistake. Im not saying all use it like that but when there are some women who get more than 4 a lifetime really need to reevaluate their decision making processes.

Hey, look. The clearly partisan guy is trying to say he's above it all yet again.
Im not partisan contrary to what you think, I fully believe that both sides are out to fuck the public until it is dead but when it starts to go south it will be too late for them to do anything about it. They use abortion as a hot button issue, the right uses it to get their loonies stirred up and the left uses it to get their loonies stirred up thinking that people are out to control them.

Fact remains if you have ever seen a late term abortion you will come away knowing that late term abortion is 100% wrong.

[angrymissy]

That was a response to another post, please read money didnt factor into the equation, some of his procedures were being covered by the state and he was trying to relax laws to get the state to cover a wider range of excuses.

You need to just google him, even once you get past the obvious nut sites there are a lot of informed sites talking about what he was proposing. It was horrendous that he wanted the states to pay for almost all of these. Again read past the headlines to get the full story, if I feel like it I will find a few tomorrow.

You can say its not a quick fix but quite a few women use it as such, its used as a solution to a failed relationship or a simple fuck up of a night out with a mistake. Im not saying all use it like that but when there are some women who get more than 4 a lifetime really need to reevaluate their decision making processes.


Im not partisan contrary to what you think, I fully believe that both sides are out to fuck the public until it is dead but when it starts to go south it will be too late for them to do anything about it. They use abortion as a hot button issue, the right uses it to get their loonies stirred up and the left uses it to get their loonies stirred up thinking that people are out to control them.

Fact remains if you have ever seen a late term abortion you will come away knowing that late term abortion is 100% wrong.

How many exactly were "Covered by the State"? If a woman's life is in danger due to pregnancy and she is on State insurance, I damned well hope it would be covered.

I have read past the headlines to get the true story, from stories from his patients to following the court case from beginning to end. People do not just flippantly get third trimester abortions. There were a little over 400 after 21 weeks in Kansas last year, and that does not encompass all third trimester abortions, or all performed by Tiller.

The number of women getting more than "4 a lifetime" is incredibly low... and if a woman is dumb enough to use a procedure like that for abortion, I'm sure as hell glad she's not a parent. It's not as simple as getting a splinter removed... I had an early abortion, it's akin to getting stabbed in the stomach for 5 minutes straight, with more stomach punching cramps for a week. I took a friend to get a later one (not 3rd trimester) and that was a whole different ball game. 3 days of procedures, each more painful than the last. It's not something you want to repeat just for the hell of it.

Seen a late term abortion? Unless you actually received one, I don't understand how you would, unless you're talking about the pictures of fetuses splashed on the lifer sites. Fact of the matter is, a "Partial Birth Abortion" is going to look like a fully formed fetus. I do not in any way think it is 100% wrong.

I do think forcing a woman to carry a fetus like this to term is 100% wrong:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anencephaly

Fact of the matter is, he could have made just as much, and even more money, without endangering his life, by simply providing first and second term abortions. He could have performed more of them without the risk to his life.

It's easy to say it's 100% wrong when there is no way you will ever need the service provided. Sounds like you want to punish women with pregnancy. That really works out well.

My husband and I found Dr. George Tiller to be a caring, sensitive, and compassionate man who truly believed he was helping those of us who were desperate and had nowhere else to go. While we were at his clinic, he was very concerned about an 11-year-old child raped by her stepfather. And, when we were tormented by Operation Rescue protesters outside his clinic, he put on a bullet proof vest and personally drove us out of there while we hid in his van.

What a dick.

[TheMojoPin]

That was a response to another post, please read money didnt factor into the equation, some of his procedures were being covered by the state and he was trying to relax laws to get the state to cover a wider range of excuses.

You need to just google him, even once you get past the obvious nut sites there are a lot of informed sites talking about what he was proposing. It was horrendous that he wanted the states to pay for almost all of these. Again read past the headlines to get the full story, if I feel like it I will find a few tomorrow.

So your issue is with the idea of people not paying for abortions out of pocket?

You can say its not a quick fix but quite a few women use it as such, its used as a solution to a failed relationship or a simple fuck up of a night out with a mistake. Im not saying all use it like that but when there are some women who get more than 4 a lifetime really need to reevaluate their decision making processes.

Find me one woman (who isn't stuck in some some awful sex industry downward spiral) who has had more than 4 late term abortions just because she didn't want to have a kid.

Your hypothetical is laughable. Late term abortions aren't things women just stumble on or decide to do on a lark.

Im not partisan contrary to what you think, I fully believe that both sides are out to fuck the public until it is dead but when it starts to go south it will be too late for them to do anything about it. They use abortion as a hot button issue, the right uses it to get their loonies stirred up and the left uses it to get their loonies stirred up thinking that people are out to control them.

And you're NOT doing this by running in here calling the doctor a scumbag with no evidence and declaring that women get abortions as quick fixes....how?

Fact remains if you have ever seen a late term abortion you will come away knowing that late term abortion is 100% wrong.

Fact remains that you're completely ignoring why almost all of them are done. Most of these women WANT their child but CAN'T have them. Making this a black and white issue like you're trying to do is ridiculous. Your efforts to demonize the doctors involved and the women who have to have this procedure done are appalling.

[foodcourtdruide]

Does anyone have any hard facts on late term abortions? I would love to know the actual law regarding them and how many are performed.

[angrymissy]

Does anyone have any hard facts on late term abortions? I would love to know the actual law regarding them and how many are performed.

The laws vary from State to State. Guttmacher Institute in non-biased and tracks abortion.

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html

http://www.guttmacher.org/graphics/2008/07/10/IB_pie.gif

As you can see, the vast majority of abortions are performed early on. Kansas (where Tillers offices are), had a little over 400 abortions after 21 weeks in 2005 as per the CDC.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5713a1.htm

[keithy_19]

My husband and I found Dr. George Tiller to be a caring, sensitive, and compassionate man who truly believed he was helping those of us who were desperate and had nowhere else to go. While we were at his clinic, he was very concerned about an 11-year-old child raped by her stepfather. And, when we were tormented by Operation Rescue protesters outside his clinic, he put on a bullet proof vest and personally drove us out of there while we hid in his van.





What a dick.

Yeah. What a dick. He didn't give them bullet proof vests.

[angrymissy]

Armored van. Srsly. That's what he had to drive to work in.

[keithy_19]

Armored van. Srsly. That's what he had to drive to work in.

And what if an anti abortion person somehow got into the van? It all goes to hell then.



My feelings on this are pretty simple. This man was a doctor who I happen to disagree with, but in no way does that justify his murder. In the eyes of the teaching of the church, the man who shot him is no better than him. We're supposed to value human life, right? Isn't that what this whole thing is about?

[Serpico1103]

Yeah no woman with wealth is getting a 3rd trimester abortion, unless their life is in danger, the main reason not to have kids are because of money issues.

Again, I was talking about 3rd trimester abortions, Im pretty sure she would know before the 3rd trimester whether or not she was raped, you analogies are bull shit.


He won both cases because people think that its a womans right for 3rd trimester and abortion, when that is 2 different scenarios than a normal abortion. I have read plenty regarding this person, hes scum, not saying he should have been shot but since he believes in hell he should get to burn for eternity.


He was doing whatever he could to make a buck and broaden the reasons for making a buck, he was no better than those people or some fucking shill for late night TV.

Do not sanctify this person and make him think hes some sort of saint, yeah some women will defend him is because they couldn't handle the mess they created and they guy left them so they went to him for a quick fix. Again the 3rd trimester should be not be a quick fix unless the mother or child may die.

It sometimes amazes me how people can so easily be brainwashed, but then judging by the politically correct nation we live in it shouldn't really surprise me once you think about it.

Settle down angry little man.

Rich women only get abortions for health reasons (3rd trimester or not)? Like to see those studies. Women get abortions for many reasons, money is only one. But I am sure they appreciate you thinking for them.

You must be an idiot to think he couldn't make money in easier ways. Being a regular abortion doctor I am sure would keep him busy enough without a bullseye on his back. Fuck. Once O'Reilly starts calling him Tiller the Killer, if he was only in it for the money you would think he would stop.

Nice that you are judging he will go to hell. Very God-like of you. He accepts Jesus as his savior, isn't that enough?

[keithy_19]

Fuck. Once O'Reilly starts calling him Tiller the Killer, if he was only in it for the money you would think he would stop.



You are a fool. I would KILL for a nickname like that.

[SonOfSmeagol]

There really are larger, much harder questions. Laws aside, should a viable fetus (>= 6 months I guess?) in a healthy mother be allowed to be aborted at the sole discretion of the mother right up to the moment before delivery, or not. I do feel that it’s wrong that a fetus/baby that can live outside the womb has “no rights” and can have its life ended by sole decision of the mother. But, on the other hand, since the fetus/baby is inside the mother, who am I to say that the mother be forced to carry to term.

If we were all just hatched from a succubus like, say, HRC (for example), seeded by an incubus like, say, WJC, we wouldn’t have to worry about it. But we’re not, so we do.

[Serpico1103]

You are a fool. I would KILL for a nickname like that.

I agree, except was it "Tiller the Baby Killer", I think. The "Baby" makes a world of difference.

Lets be honest, killing babies is fun, but certainly not a proud achievement.

[Serpico1103]

There really are larger, much harder questions. Laws aside, should a viable fetus (>= 6 months I guess?) in a healthy mother be allowed to be aborted at the sole discretion of the mother right up to the moment before delivery, or not. I do feel that it’s wrong that a fetus/baby that can live outside the womb has “no rights” and can have its life ended by sole decision of the mother. But, on the other hand, since the fetus/baby is inside the mother, who am I to say that the mother be forced to carry to term.

If we were all just hatched from a succubus like, say, HRC (for example), seeded by an incubus like, say, WJC, we wouldn’t have to worry about it. But we’re not, so we do.


The line needs to be drawn somewhere. In all this, where is the father's rights. He has no say in whether the baby is carried to term, but if it is he must support the baby for 18 years or so.
The state has chosen where to draw the line, it is not ideal, but in weighing everyone's rights, the state gives final say to the mother.

[brettmojo]

And what if an anti abortion person somehow got into the van? It all goes to hell then.



My feelings on this are pretty simple. This man was a doctor who I happen to disagree with, but in no way does that justify his murder. In the eyes of the teaching of the church, the man who shot him is no better than him. We're supposed to value human life, right? Isn't that what this whole thing is about?
Well yeah. This country was built on the idea that every life is precious.

Right Native Americans?

[styckx]

Nothing brings me more joy then seeing Bill O'Reilly get destroyed

Great clip

Gets fucking awesome around 1:40 in. The ending is the best cum shot ever..

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[angrymissy]

hahahahaha

look how fucking mad he gets

[styckx]

hahahahaha

look how fucking mad he gets

I would've loved if he had the balls to retort to her last statement. That was an epic ownage. I LOVED how mad he got though. What a mess that guy is.

[Serpico1103]

Nothing brings me more joy then seeing Bill O'Reilly get destroyed

Great clip

Gets fucking awesome around 1:40 in. The ending is the best cum shot ever..



What a dick. Tries to bully her, big surprise, and she still owns him.
He ha said over and over how the left's attitude encourages terrorism, but he tries to deny his rhetoric would encourage violence; even after it did with the church incident. ASS!

[brettmojo]

Nothing brings me more joy then seeing Bill O'Reilly get destroyed

Great clip

Gets fucking awesome around 1:40 in. The ending is the best cum shot ever..

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http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/1112/faceg.gif