Unemployment Benefits A Factor for Why Unemployment Is High

[The Jays]

http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/employment/2009-06-11-workweek_N.htm

Congress' approval of higher and longer unemployment benefits may contribute to the extra time spent between jobs, says James Sherk, a labor economist at the conservative Heritage Foundation.

"The humanitarian benefit of unemployment insurance also causes people to look with less intensity for a new job," he says.

ARE YOU FUCKING SHITTING ME???

[Marc with a c]

somebody email this to hammersavage so he sees it.

[FezsAssistant]

http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/employment/2009-06-11-workweek_N.htm



ARE YOU FUCKING SHITTING ME???

Why is that crazy? Everyone I know on unemployment does this.

[sailor]

it's an obvious point, y'know.

[HBox]

One would be more desperate for a job with zero income rather than non-zero income.

[The Jays]

I'm just kinda pissed off that it's my fault that I'm unemployed, not the economy's fault for not producing a job that I can do.

[Gvac]

Go to work you lazy fucks.

There are plenty of jobs out there.

Get your hands dirty.

Fucking prima donnas.

[HBox]

Go to work you lazy fucks.

There are plenty of jobs out there.

Get your hands dirty.

Fucking prima donnas.

There will be plenty of jobs cleaning up after the parade in Pittsburgh.

[SonOfSmeagol]

I'm just kinda pissed off that it's my fault that I'm unemployed, not the economy's fault for not producing a job that I can do.

http://www.news1.net/depression/apple2.jpg

[Recyclerz]

http://caddyshackthemovie.warnerbros.com/img/meetted.jpg


Well, the world needs ditch diggers, too.


Go to work you lazy fucks.
There are plenty of jobs out there.
Get your hands dirty.
Fucking prima donnas.

One of my favorite quotations from Chairman GVAC's Little Red Book.

[hammersavage]

suckers

[TheMojoPin]

Demonizing the poor and government assistance has a disturbing racial overtone that has not vanished despite the massive welfare "reform" passed by Clinton in 1996. It's nuts how its still used as a boogeyman to convince people that it's a huge part of bad economic times when the bills passed in 1996 basically cut people off after 2 years with a 5 year lifetime max. Most welfare is state by state now and has work-based requirements for someone to be on in the first place. It's absolutely sickening how welfare and poverty are approached in this country. The public policy has basically been to blame the poor entirely for their own situations and if they can't escape poverty, well, that's their own fault and that's just "proof" that they're not able to live up to the "American dream." It's biased, barbaric Social Darwinistic garbage.

Check out this winner: (http://www.softskull.com/cgi-bin/dada/mail.cgi/archive/Soft_Skull_Announce/20080929115454/)

And then there's Louisiana state lawmaker, John LaBruzzo, who proposes solving the problem of poverty by giving financial incentives to poor women on public assistance to be sterilized, so as to cut down on their birthrates. LaBruzzo insists his plan isn't racist, sexist, or classist, but merely aimed at cutting down on excessive welfare costs. He also claims that his plan would reverse the current pattern, whereby poor women are encouraged to have more babies so as to collect more welfare.


He ignores the now-twelve-year-old welfare reform law, which prevents additional payments for persons on welfare who have additional children. Although these "extra" monies were never very much (in Louisiana they amounted to less than $100 per month at the time the law was changed), now they are essentially non-existent. Secondly, LaBruzzo ignores the evidence from more than twenty years of research, which indicates that persons receiving public assistance do not, in fact, have more children, on average, than non-welfare receiving families. So the idea that poor women need incentives not to have babies is nonsense. What they need is decent-paying jobs, something LaBruzzo has no idea how to create.

LaBruzzo, who said the idea for this bill came to him after seeing folks in New Orleans during Katrina who were dependent on so-called government handouts, apparently doesn't feel the need to do any homework. For had he done so, he would have discovered that at the time of the flooding, there were fewer than 5000 households in the entire city receiving cash assistance, out of nearly 200,000 households in all. Fewer than four percent of black households, and only about one in ten poor households were receiving the kind of welfare that LaBruzzo would seek to tie to sterilization. Since Katrina, the number of persons on state aid have fallen even further, as the poor muddle through with very little assistance of any kind.

Stellar. Even in the face of unspeakable tragedy and statistics the prove one completely wrong, it's never the wrong time to blame everything on black people getting welfare! Keep beating the dead horse of the myth of the welfare queen, dipshits.

[epo]

Wait, a study from the Heritage Foundation telling us that government spending on anything is bad? Never would've thunk it.

[The Jays]

Seriously, I got laid off in January, can only have a part time job because my boss doesn't have enough work to make me full time, so I collect unemployment for the rest of the week (keep in mind that unemployment is something I paid into when I was working full time for the past decade, and that it's not fucking welfare), I fucking send out resumes to every job opening that meets my skills knowing that every other unemployed architect is applying to the exact same thing, I send out resumes to places I feel I could contribute my skills to, and I've even tried to start my own side business in the hopes of getting some work, and I have to hear some fucking douchebags telling ME I DON'T GIVE A SHIT about finding a job? That I'm fucking totally content with getting a couple hundred bucks a week that I have to pay taxes on top of the money I get from my part time job? That's I'm not trying my fucking hardest to find a fucking new job BUT THAT THERE'S NO FUCKING JOBS OUT THERE? I need to read and hear that from some fucking douchebag at a think-tank and then hear/read it regurgitated from every other douchebag who thinks that way?

Go fuck yourself.

[angrymissy]

When I was on unemployment years ago, it was capped at around 350 a week, which doesn't even barely cover rent in
Ny. It was not exactly something I strived to stay on.

[TheMojoPin]

When I was on unemployment years ago, it was capped at around 350 a week, which doesn't even barely cover rent in
Ny. It was not exactly something I strived to stay on.

Yeah, that's the funniest/saddest part of people who bitch and scream about welfare: they show they clearly haven't looked at the numbers because they talk like welfare, at any point in our history, has been something that people could just sit back and live off of as opposed to barely being able to just survive on a day to day basis.

[The Jays]

It's enough for me to get food and help pay my rent, but I need to work part time to make up, and at that, I can't make more than 405 a week or else my weekly claim doesn't go though. Plus, every day I do work, 1/4 of the benefit I qualify for is subtracted from what I can collect.

So, yeah, I'm totally into collecting unemployment. I have so much free time to spend on studying for licensing exams while eating ramen noodles.

[sailor]

Yeah, that's the funniest/saddest part of people who bitch and scream about welfare: they show they clearly haven't looked at the numbers because they talk like welfare, at any point in our history, has been something that people could just sit back and live off of as opposed to barely being able to just survive on a day to day basis.

why do you keep bringing up welfare? stay on topic.

[TheMojoPin]

why do you keep bringing up welfare? stay on topic.

They fall under "unemployment benefits."

Now shut the fuck up.

[The Jays]

Yeah, that's the funniest/saddest part of people who bitch and scream about welfare: they show they clearly haven't looked at the numbers because they talk like welfare, at any point in our history, has been something that people could just sit back and live off of as opposed to barely being able to just survive on a day to day basis.

Well, to be fair, unemployment isn't technically welfare... it's state-run unemployment insurance. In NYS, there's a smidgen of money deducted for UI, and depending on how much you paid into it due to your previous salaries, you get to claim a larger amount per unemployed week, up to the max of 405, plus another 25 due to the stimulus given to New York State. You get to collect for half a year, but they have provided an extension, so you can collect for about a year, and then they cut you off.

So, welfare, not really. And not really something I would like to stay on.

[SonOfSmeagol]

Wow! Just fan the flames more than a little bit by calling out a little known, powerless, extreme LA Rep whose dated ridiculous proposal was soundly rebuffed and went absolutely NOWHERE. But look out, all those evil RWs are out there and they’re coming to get you and your would-be babies!! OOOOHHHH Nooooooo.
Seriously - SHAME ON YOU because you so jump on others when they do similarly inflammatory things.

[TheMojoPin]

Well, to be fair, unemployment isn't technically welfare... it's state-run unemployment insurance. In NYS, there's a smidgen of money deducted for UI, and depending on how much you paid into it due to your previous salaries, you get to claim a larger amount per unemployed week, up to the max of 405, plus another 25 due to the stimulus given to New York State. You get to collect for half a year, but they have provided an extension, so you can collect for about a year, and then they cut you off.

So, welfare, not really. And not really something I would like to stay on.

Very true, though post-1996 they're now very similar.

I'm just on a welfare kick with a lot of my research lately so it's on my mind.

[The Jays]

Wow! Just fan the flames more than a little bit by calling out a little known, powerless, extreme LA Rep whose dated ridiculous proposal was soundly rebuffed and went absolutely NOWHERE. But look out, all those evil RWs are out there and they’re coming to get you and your would-be babies!! OOOOHHHH Nooooooo.
Seriously - SHAME ON YOU because you so jump on others when they do similarly inflammatory things.

This has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

[TheMojoPin]

This has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

That's SoS' bit. The guy hates political discussion that he disagrees with, but he's lazy so he doesn't bother to try and argue any of the points brought up. He instead just attacks the discussion/debate itself and the people participating in it. Just ride it out: he'll tantrum for a couple hours and then disappear for the better part of a week.

[Gvac]

Wah wah wah. I can't get the exact perfect job I want.

I'll stay home and suck off the government tit for a few months.

Pussies.

One hard day of work would kill yas.

[SonOfSmeagol]

Wow, what a cop-out. Man o man. You say some some dismissive shit like that yet you quote me and respond in here and other threads. A little back and forth so to speak. Nobody cares, you said some weeks back, quite disrespective, yet you still do this. Kind of playing it both ways. What's the deal man.

[TheMojoPin]

Wow, what a cop-out. Man o man

How can one cop out if nothing of substance was actually presented? I'm more than happy to debate these points with you, but you have to actually address them in the first place as opposed to trying to make the discussion about the discussion/debate itself.

[TheMojoPin]

Wah wah wah. I can't get the exact perfect job I want.

I'll stay home and suck off the government tit for a few months.

Pussies.

One hard day of work would kill yas.

I know you're kidding, but that's some evil, evil shit that people actually think is reality across the board when it comes to welfare/unemployment/government assistance.

[The Jays]

Wah wah wah. I can't get the exact perfect job I want.

I'll stay home and suck off the government tit for a few months.

Pussies.

One hard day of work would kill yas.

Excuse me, I'm not going to take a job at CVS that I'm overqualified for when someone else could use it. I'm also not going to work outside of the profession which I have all of my experience in, where all of my value lies.

I'm working part time because my boss can't get the work in to afford me on a full time basis. I'm busting my ass trying to get a job in my profession, I'm not about to waste my time or some other business's time by learning a completely new trade when 1) we'd both lose profit on such an activity and 2) there are no jobs out there for me to even do that.

Also, Unemployment is a tit that I fucking paid in to, so the milk I'm sucking out of it is milk I fucking helped to fill that tit with, so fuck that bullshit that I'm sitting at home sucking on it not trying to be a fucking productive member of fucking society. Besides, that milk dries out in a couple of months, so don't try to make it seem like I'm trying to prolong this tit sucking.

[Death Metal Moe]

Yea, unemployment is a motherfucking joy to be on, let me tell you. I love getting a check for less than I was making every 2 weeks, no benefits, no 401k deferments, nothing.

It's covering my bills but there's no saving money on unemployment.

Tell that fucking cocksucker James Sherk to try and live on what he would get from unemployment for a few months. Labor Economist? Sounds like a bullshit artist to me.

[SonOfSmeagol]

How can one cop out if nothing of substance was actually presented? I'm more than happy to debate these points with you, but you have to actually address them in the first place as opposed to trying to make the discussion about the discussion/debate itself.

OK Please see my edit above. And, I believe my response to your post about the LA guy stands. C'mon man - it was inflammatory by your own definition. I'm not dissing your total message, just questioning the packaging so to speak, and that's what stood out.

[The Jays]

OK Please see my edit above. And, I believe my response to your post about the LA guy stands. C'mon man - it was inflammatory by your own definition. I'm not dissing your total message, just questioning the packaging so to speak, and that's what stood out.

Again, I do not see how this pertains to this discussion. If you want to prove some point about an unrelated subject, do it in another thread, please.

[SonOfSmeagol]

Again, I do not see how this pertains to this discussion. If you want to prove some point about an unrelated subject, do it in another thread, please.

Look, I'm trying here. What am I speaking fucking Russian or something?

[SP1!]

One would be more desperate for a job with zero income rather than non-zero income.

Well duh, when I was younger then I would stay out of work as long as possible, but as an adult I dont feel thats a factor since most of us will feel like a loser without a job.

[Gvac]

What are you unemployed bums doing posting here?

Get out and pound the pavement! Find a fucking job!

[lleeder]

This great news.
I can't wait to get laid off.

[TheMojoPin]

Wow, what a cop-out. Man o man. You say some some dismissive shit like that yet you quote me and respond in here and other threads. A little back and forth so to speak. Nobody cares, you said some weeks back, quite disrespective, yet you still do this. Kind of playing it both ways. What's the deal man.

Again, if you want to talk about the issues at hand you'll get a response. When you repeatedly try to make things about the discussion itself people are just going to tune you out. I'm being "dismissive" in response to you dismissing every political discussion you don't like here.

[silera]

Jays, I agree with your understanding of unemployment benefits but it actually falls under the technical definition of "welfare" for government expenditures. Same for social security- even though you pay into both.

It's really ass backwards thought- almost as if saying you're on welfare for using your 401k money or using your aflack insurance coverage. Much like Mojo is stating, the logic behind much of the conversation is faulty. Instead of blaming up, we as a nation tend to blame down.

Funnily (well not really) unemployment and disability insurance are parallel programs and temporary disability ends at 6 months- regardless of whether or not you're still sick. We found out the hard way when Alkey's disability stopped 6 months in. We have yet to see a Social Security check because you have to be disabled for at least 6 months before you can apply and expect to be disabled for at least one year. Then they deny most ppl twice and the processing time from start to finish is at around 30 mos.

Anyway- in the interim there are no benefits whatsoever. It's sad that in a country where most of the population (90%) earns less than 100K a year, that we don't have the ability to empathize and would rather cite boogeyman myths. It keeps us from addressing the real problem which is income disparity, and the inability for most americans not simply to work, consume and produce, but to have enough left over to save.

Speaking of savings, our government proactively led the change from pensions to 401ks (even trying to go so far as to turn Social Security into 401ks) and are now leading the charge against pensions for the auto union and teachers union while everyone else who diligently contributed to their 401k is SCREWED.

The reality is the entitlement programs no where near approach the levels spent on corporate welfare and military spending. American citizens are THE MOST PRODUCTIVE workforce on the planet. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20572828/ For this, our government and fellow citizens reward with blame, hatred of immigrants, and fairy tales about someone living high on the hog on welfare and unemployment, showing up to the supermarket in a BMW and fur coat with food coupons, and even more dumb garbage.

[TheMojoPin]

I wish I could marry that post.

[silera]

Mojo, obviously you and I are boggled at the same question. Why are American's worse off now? Is it outsourcing? Is it debt? Is it healthcare?

I've been reading so much and I can't get it. The more I read, the more I get the blame reaction. People over extended, people want it all blah blah. In reality though, it seems that everyone is working more for less, so to compensate, debt became the only option.

I've never got an employer match on a 401k. I remember a time when I contributed 100 a month for my insurance with a 20 copay and no deductible. Now its 400 a month, 6K family max deductible and $50 copay on prescription.

I can't be the only one. Pat and I have been stopped dead in our tracks for 2 1/2 years and I alone make the median wage for our state. Why isn't that enough?

[The Jays]

Jays, I agree with your understanding of unemployment benefits but it actually falls under the technical definition of "welfare" for government expenditures. Same for social security- even though you pay into both.

It's really ass backwards thought- almost as if saying you're on welfare for using your 401k money or using your aflack insurance coverage. Much like Mojo is stating, the logic behind much of the conversation is faulty. Instead of blaming up, we as a nation tend to blame down.

Funnily (well not really) unemployment and disability insurance are parallel programs and temporary disability ends at 6 months- regardless of whether or not you're still sick. We found out the hard way when Alkey's disability stopped 6 months in. We have yet to see a Social Security check because you have to be disabled for at least 6 months before you can apply and expect to be disabled for at least one year. Then they deny most ppl twice and the processing time from start to finish is at around 30 mos.

Anyway- in the interim there are no benefits whatsoever. It's sad that in a country where most of the population (90%) earns less than 100K a year, that we don't have the ability to empathize and would rather cite boogeyman myths. It keeps us from addressing the real problem which is income disparity, and the inability for most americans not simply to work, consume and produce, but to have enough left over to save.

Speaking of savings, our government proactively led the change from pensions to 401ks (even trying to go so far as to turn Social Security into 401ks) and are now leading the charge against pensions for the auto union and teachers union while everyone else who diligently contributed to their 401k is SCREWED.

The reality is the entitlement programs no where near approach the levels spent on corporate welfare and military spending. American citizens are THE MOST PRODUCTIVE workforce on the planet. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20572828/ For this, our government and fellow citizens reward with blame, hatred of immigrants, and fairy tales about someone living high on the hog on welfare and unemployment, showing up to the supermarket in a BMW and fur coat with food coupons, and even more dumb garbage.


Alright, so, technically, I'm on welfare, but, like I expressed in my previous post, I pay the money that allows myself and other the opportunity to claim unemployment. It's not my fault that just because I use the money to help pay for some bills while I look for a full time job, that unemployment is so high. They make it seem that because I accept some money that I helped pay into that I'm some lazy fuck who just wants to suck on the tits of the government.

To be honest, the government's tits aren't very nice, you'd think with all the money I give it they'd pay for some fucking implants, but no, I get to suck out rancid milk from saggy flapjack tits belonging to the state of New York.

And because a fucking conservative run government let interest rates go super low, promoted ARMs and no money down mortgages royally fucking up our economy, I gotta get fucking blamed because I can't get a job that vanished because all the credit and funding for new building projects up and fucking vanished like a fart in the fucking wind?

[Cyber Trucker]

I'm just kinda pissed off that it's my fault that I'm unemployed, not the economy's fault for not producing a job that I can do.

It's fucked up we need a middleclass the gap is gitting bigger between rich and poor. Stop shipping jobs overseas we can do them.

[silera]

Jays, I'm with you completely. It's stupid to consider any entitlement program a handout.

My favorite is that they also lump in VA benefits with entitlements and not military expenditures. Talk about disinformation. Soldiers in the governments budget are actually welfare recipients...

[The Jays]

I bet this is all the fault of those "libs" that all of those news programs talk about. If only we could somehow destroy the "libs", maybe we'd get somewhere in this country.

[TheMojoPin]

Mojo, obviously you and I are boggled at the same question. Why are American's worse off now? Is it outsourcing? Is it debt? Is it healthcare?

I've been reading so much and I can't get it. The more I read, the more I get the blame reaction. People over extended, people want it all blah blah. In reality though, it seems that everyone is working more for less, so to compensate, debt became the only option.

I've never got an employer match on a 401k. I remember a time when I contributed 100 a month for my insurance with a 20 copay and no deductible. Now its 400 a month, 6K family max deductible and $50 copay on prescription.

I can't be the only one. Pat and I have been stopped dead in our tracks for 2 1/2 years and I alone make the median wage for our state. Why isn't that enough?

I wish I had the answer. The sadly ironic thing is that the country seems to be on the scary path of how modern urban American ghettos were essentially "designed" to function: significant spending power that dwarfs actual local production and business ownership (if any of either at all). To oversimplify: any money that just comes in just goes right out and the cycle just perpetuates itself with no way out. Modern economic colonialism.

[Serpico1103]

Mojo, obviously you and I are boggled at the same question. Why are American's worse off now? Is it outsourcing? Is it debt? Is it healthcare?
I've been reading so much and I can't get it. The more I read, the more I get the blame reaction. People over extended, people want it all blah blah. In reality though, it seems that everyone is working more for less, so to compensate, debt became the only option.
I've never got an employer match on a 401k. I remember a time when I contributed 100 a month for my insurance with a 20 copay and no deductible. Now its 400 a month, 6K family max deductible and $50 copay on prescription.
I can't be the only one. Pat and I have been stopped dead in our tracks for 2 1/2 years and I alone make the median wage for our state. Why isn't that enough?

Too be simplistic. Because consumerism is perpetuated by capitalism. People bought more and more things they simply did not need. I could not imagine when I was in HS or in college buying several pairs of $200 dollar jeans, seeing all my classmates in brand new cars, everyone in the house having their own TV, computer, gaming system, cell phone.
Talk to your grandparents, if they were middle class, ask them what they did for entertainment, how much money they spent on clothing. How often the family bought a new car.
We became addicted to spending. The economy began to depend on an unrealistic level of spending. Once that level became unsustainable (simple reason is people were using 2nd mortgages to buy consumer goods, or continue to live in a house that they really couldn't afford) it all came crashing down.

[TheMojoPin]

Too be simplistic. Because consumerism is perpetuated by capitalism. People bought more and more things they simply did not need. I could not imagine when I was in HS or in college buying several pairs of $200 dollar jeans, seeing all my classmates in brand new cars, everyone in the house having their own TV, computer, gaming system, cell phone.
Talk to your grandparents, if they were middle class, ask them what they did for entertainment, how much money they spent on clothing. How often the family bought a new car.
We became addicted to spending. The economy began to depend on an unrealistic level of spending. Once that level became unsustainable (simple reason is people were using 2nd mortgages to buy consumer goods, or continue to live in a house that they really couldn't afford) it all came crashing down.

Buying shit we didn't need was great when we were making most of that shit and being paid enough to afford that spending. It was a great cycle that just fed the economy and kept the job market and wages strong. It wasn't even a shift overseas that kicked this off: it was the shift to the Sunbelt to avoid unionized labor that started this mentality of wanting to pay people as little as possible but still expecting them to spend as much as before and more. Yeah, sorry, something is missing in that equation, fellas.

I'd definitely reccomend this book:

http://ebooks-imgs.connect.com/product/400/000/000/000/000/104/395/400000000000000104395_s4.jpg

[Cyber Trucker]

I bet this is all the fault of those "libs" that all of those news programs talk about. If only we could somehow destroy the "libs", maybe we'd get somewhere in this country.

LOL

[HBox]

Jays, I agree with your understanding of unemployment benefits but it actually falls under the technical definition of "welfare" for government expenditures. Same for social security- even though you pay into both.

It's really ass backwards thought- almost as if saying you're on welfare for using your 401k money or using your aflack insurance coverage. Much like Mojo is stating, the logic behind much of the conversation is faulty. Instead of blaming up, we as a nation tend to blame down.

Funnily (well not really) unemployment and disability insurance are parallel programs and temporary disability ends at 6 months- regardless of whether or not you're still sick. We found out the hard way when Alkey's disability stopped 6 months in. We have yet to see a Social Security check because you have to be disabled for at least 6 months before you can apply and expect to be disabled for at least one year. Then they deny most ppl twice and the processing time from start to finish is at around 30 mos.

Anyway- in the interim there are no benefits whatsoever. It's sad that in a country where most of the population (90%) earns less than 100K a year, that we don't have the ability to empathize and would rather cite boogeyman myths. It keeps us from addressing the real problem which is income disparity, and the inability for most americans not simply to work, consume and produce, but to have enough left over to save.

Speaking of savings, our government proactively led the change from pensions to 401ks (even trying to go so far as to turn Social Security into 401ks) and are now leading the charge against pensions for the auto union and teachers union while everyone else who diligently contributed to their 401k is SCREWED.

The reality is the entitlement programs no where near approach the levels spent on corporate welfare and military spending. American citizens are THE MOST PRODUCTIVE workforce on the planet. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20572828/ For this, our government and fellow citizens reward with blame, hatred of immigrants, and fairy tales about someone living high on the hog on welfare and unemployment, showing up to the supermarket in a BMW and fur coat with food coupons, and even more dumb garbage.

I know this situation all too well. And although it doesn't help now if they do finally approve his claim you will get paid for all that back time. You will get one lump sum for the amount he would have been paid from 6 months in until the point where he was finally approved. Like I said it doesn't help now and it is an extremely stupid way to do it but you won't completely miss out on all that money if he is finally approved.

Applying for Medicare is even more stupid than that. You have to be disabled for 2 years before being eligible. Good luck lasting 2 years without insurance while disabled.

[Serpico1103]

Buying shit we didn't need was great when we were making most of that shit and being paid enough to afford that spending. It was a great cycle that just fed the economy and kept the job market and wages strong. It wasn't even a shift overseas that kicked this off: it was the shift to the Sunbelt to avoid unionized labor that started this mentality of wanting to pay people as little as possible but still expecting them to spend as much as before and more. Yeah, sorry, something is missing in that equation, fellas.
I'd definitely reccomend this book:


I will grab it.
The wealthy need a middle class to insulate themselves from the poor. Without a middle class there is a risk of revolution. So, any change, union rights, equality for blacks, freeing the slaves was implemented, not to help those in need, but to protect the power structure.
The wealthy need to keep the middle class thinking that poor people are the cause of their problems. These keeps the middle class from focusing on the concentration of wealth in a few hands.
If the disparity between rich and poor continues, extremism is not far behind. But, our system will possibly do just enough to maintain the status quo.

[silera]

HBOX- luckily I have maintained insurance, barely keeping up with the deductibles through this all but yeah, it's just f-ed up to make people fight with insurance, bills, debt, and illness. Fingers are crossed though =)

Serpico- that's what I mean by blame game. It's more than that. I've done the math over and over. We earn median income for our town. I'm not living beyond my means. Our car is 11 yr old. Our rent for a 3 bedroom home is 1800 AND we have a roomate that pays 400. We go out once every 3 months. I cook every day. I bring sandwiches to work. I've don't paid more than 20 bucks for any item of clothing. We have ZERO savings. I don't think I'm alone.

There is a disconnect between income and reality. Americans are not able to make it. Sure people used to have only one tv- but if you look at the numbers vs inflation- tv's are cheaper now than they used to be. Same for computers. So no one is actually spending more than they used to on them. The examples you throw up are red herrings.

People are spending more on the basics- not the extras. Health insurance, medication, gas, housing, daycare, food.

[silera]

Seripico- i just read your last post. Agreed. I think that it is becoming apparent to too many that the middle class and poor are not that far apart, and they far outnumber the rest.

[TheMojoPin]

Seripico- i just read your last post. Agreed. I think that it is becoming apparent to too many that the middle class and poor are not that far apart, and they far outnumber the rest.

This is what makes the racial divide so critical. The lower classes are never going to have any real power en masse so long as poor whites buy into the hype they have more in common with a rich white person than a poor non-white person. That's what kept the class system of the Old South in place during Reconstruction and beyond, that's what killed the Populist movement and that's what has defined the social and economic makeup of cities and suburbs over the last century.

[silera]

More clearly, the median income in 1984 for NJ was 53K. The median income in NJ now is 67k.

67K in 2009 is the equivalent of 111K in 1984. http://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm That means that my income a generation ago would have been twice the median income for the state.

Our income has not kept up with cost of living. It's just not adding up.

[The Jays]

You know who's fault that is? Liberals.

[Suspect Chin]

The Jays, you said that you are unwilling to take a job that doesn't line up with your experience and education, but you have the nerve to complain about low unemployment benefits? How about biting the bullet and taking a job that will pay the bills until the opportunity comes along that aligns with your desired career?

I can't believe people sit around and bitch that a government handout is insufficient. You are getting something for next to nothing and complaining that it is not enough. How about good old fashioned American industrialism? I know manufacturing is a thing of the past in America, but that doesn't mean you can't be an entrepreneur and find a way to make money. If people expect unemployment benefits to increase, it will require a tax increase which will just cause more bitching and in reality is nothing more than wealth redistribution.

And what about the idea of college? Many people complain that they can't find a job but how about becoming educated and increasing your worth to a company? I know there are so many tuition assistance/grants/scholarships available, that no one really has an excuse for not getting a higher education.

Companies will decrease salaries as a last ditch effort to keep the company afloat. What would you rather see, companies maintaining jobs at a lesser pay, or companies going under altogether because they refused to cut salaries, thereby sending way more people to the unemployment line?

[Suspect Chin]

Our rent for a 3 bedroom home is 1800 AND we have a roomate that pays 400.


Move to Saint Louis. You could easily get a 3 bedroom home or apartment for $800 a month. I bet that extra $1000 a month would help.

[TheMojoPin]

Move to Saint Louis.

Now that's just cruel.

[HBox]

And what about the idea of college? Many people complain that they can't find a job but how about becoming educated and increasing your worth to a company? I know there are so many tuition assistance/grants/scholarships available, that no one really has an excuse for not getting a higher education.

John McEnroe and myself question your seriousness.

[Suspect Chin]

Now that's just cruel.

Drastic times call for drastic measures my friend.

[HBox]

Move to Saint Louis. You could easily get a 3 bedroom home or apartment for $800 a month. I bet that extra $1000 a month would help.

Things are cheaper there because income is lower there.

Unless of course she makes use of Davey's Travel Chopper to commute back and forth from Missouri to Jersey.

[Suspect Chin]

John McEnroe and myself question your seriousness.

Huh?

[Suspect Chin]

Things are cheaper there because income is lower there.

Unless of course she makes use of Davey's Travel Chopper to commute back and forth from Missouri to Jersey.

No income isn't half as much here. If an engineer in STL is making $85k and paying $800 a month in rent, I guarantee that same engineer isn't making $170k+ in Jersey/NY and paying $1800 a month.

[HBox]

Huh?

YOU CAN'T BE SERIOUS.

There are many things that keep people out of college. From life circumstances to the fact that the only thing that is becoming more and more expensive at a rate rivaling that of health care is higher education.

It's a nice fantasy that anyone who wants to can go and turn around their life at college. There's way too many hurdles for some to overcome and, frankly, college isn't for everyone. But the bigger point is that you shouldn't need a college degree just to get out of poverty.

[HBox]

No income isn't half as much here. If an engineer in STL is making $85k and paying $800 a month in rent, I guarantee that same engineer isn't making $170k+ in Jersey/NY and paying $1800 a month.

I wan't saying half, I'm just saying she most likely wouldn't get paid as much there as she is here if this was even a realistic scenario.

[Suspect Chin]

YOU CAN'T BE SERIOUS.

There are many things that keep people out of college. From life circumstances to the fact that the only thing that is becoming more and more expensive at a rate rivaling that of health care is higher education.

It's a nice fantasy that anyone who wants to can go and turn around their life at college. There's way too many hurdles for some to overcome and, frankly, college isn't for everyone. But the bigger point is that you shouldn't need a college degree just to get out of poverty.

Right, you shouldn't have to make sacrifices and work your ass off to be able to survive in this country. You are just providing excuses for asking for a free ride.

"College isn't for everyone", well then apparently success isn't either.

As I said, there is so much money available for college that money is never an excuse, and if you say it is, you are just defending your own laziness. Don't make excuses for people that made poor decisions when they were in HS or college age. The mistakes we make when we are young dictate the success we experience as we grow old.

[Suspect Chin]

I wan't saying half, I'm just saying she most likely wouldn't get paid as much there as she is here if this was even a realistic scenario.

Realistic? If she wants to keep her family's head above water, this is an option she may have to consider. Would you defend someone who drives a Cadillac but complains that they can't afford the electric bill?

[silera]

http://www.statehealthfacts.org/comparemaptable.jsp?cat=1&ind=15

Missouri median income 46K
NJ median income 67K
I'd make 13K less in missiouri. So, I can uproot my entire family to save 1K?

That's a great site for statistics.

[silera]

Chris- Jays is an architect. He did get the education. You're not reading.

[The Jays]

The Jays, you said that you are unwilling to take a job that doesn't line up with your experience and education, but you have the nerve to complain about low unemployment benefits? How about biting the bullet and taking a job that will pay the bills until the opportunity comes along that aligns with your desired career?

I can't believe people sit around and bitch that a government handout is insufficient. You are getting something for next to nothing and complaining that it is not enough. How about good old fashioned American industrialism? I know manufacturing is a thing of the past in America, but that doesn't mean you can't be an entrepreneur and find a way to make money. If people expect unemployment benefits to increase, it will require a tax increase which will just cause more bitching and in reality is nothing more than wealth redistribution.

And what about the idea of college? Many people complain that they can't find a job but how about becoming educated and increasing your worth to a company? I know there are so many tuition assistance/grants/scholarships available, that no one really has an excuse for not getting a higher education.

Companies will decrease salaries as a last ditch effort to keep the company afloat. What would you rather see, companies maintaining jobs at a lesser pay, or companies going under altogether because they refused to cut salaries, thereby sending way more people to the unemployment line?

How bout this? I could go, "bite the bullet", as you say, and take a job that pays the bills, but what job would that be exactly? A job at the supermarket? At the CVS? A job where I can go and make minimum wage, and forgo the part time job I have already to make the same amount I get there, which is less than 400 a week, and make the same amount of money working full time that I make part time right now, and forgo the unemployment benefit that I get that help me pay for the rest of my bills?

I don't want to take that job at CVS, not because it's beneath me, but because it's financially stupid if I can keep my part time work and get my unemployment benefit to help me with my bills while I try to look for a job in my profession. Also, why should I take that job if I can get by with the part time plus my benefit and let someone who needs the job at CVS take it. Isn't that helping with unemployment in a second degree?

Oh, and how about, newsflash, there's not a whole lot of jobs available!

I love this "good ol fashioned American industrialism", like we're some fucking manufacturing country. I'd love if if there was a job out there just waiting for me to take it!

And college? Are you fucking with me? I ALREADY WENT TO FUCKING COLLEGE! That's sorta why I'm in the profession I've been in for the past fucking decade. That's why I've tried to start my own fucking business in the same profession. And guess the fuck what? NO ONE IS THROWING MONEY AROUND BECAUSE CREDIT IS FUCKING TIGHT AND THEIR SAVINGS FELL OUT FROM UNDERNEATH THEM SO THEIR STOCKPILING ALL OF THEIR MONEY AND NOT SPENDING IT.


Am I fucking asking for unemployment to increase? No. I'm asking for your fuckwads that think because I accept a benefit WHICH I FUCKING PAID INTO FOR THE PAST 16 YEARS that I;m not trying to get a fucking job that pays my fucking bills to not fucking blame me because I can't find a full time fucking job that you say is there and isn't.

I'm gonna fucking work a minimum wage fucking job that pays me less than the unemployment benefits, sucks away time I spend interviewing, handing out resumes and working on my work portfolio, not to mention offers zero fucking health insurance. That's your brilliant fucking answer.

[Suspect Chin]

http://www.statehealthfacts.org/comparemaptable.jsp?cat=1&ind=15

Missouri median income 46K
NJ median income 67K
I'd make 13K less in missiouri. So, I can uproot my entire family to save 1K?

That's a great site for statistics.

Did you look at overall cost of living? Sure you'd be making less, but it would cost less to live.

[Suspect Chin]

Chris- Jays is an architect. He did get the education. You're not reading.

I did read. He has an education, so he is in a better position than most, but he is unwilling to take a lesser job to get him through until an architect job arises.

[HBox]

Right, you shouldn't have to make sacrifices and work your ass off to be able to survive in this country. You are just providing excuses for asking for a free ride.

"College isn't for everyone", well then apparently success isn't either.

As I said, there is so much money available for college that money is never an excuse, and if you say it is, you are just defending your own laziness. Don't make excuses for people that made poor decisions when they were in HS or college age. The mistakes we make when we are young dictate the success we experience as we grow old.

You don't need to go to college to put in a hard day of work. I never said anything about hand outs or anything. I just think that if you don't go to college but still work and do your share you shouldn't be confined to a lifetime of struggle and poverty.

And there are plenty of people who are successful with out college. All the way from Richard Branson all the way down to auto mechanics. It's certainly possible. I just don't think that anyone who works hard for a living and does there job well should have to worry about shit like health insurance or affording clothes or affording groceries.

And there is not an inexhaustible amount of money for people to go to college, especially for minorities and those living in poverty and those who spent their whole school career in a joke of a school system.

I'm a college graduate and I'm not interested in looking at those who didn't graduate with disgust and tsk tsking them and pretending like every single one of them are getting what they deserve.

It's absolutely disgusting that this country has come to this where a hard day of work has been so devalued and we are so indifferent to other people's struggles, so fucking eager to dismiss our neighbor's undeserved crisis because their neighbor is a lazy asshole who deserves it.

[The Jays]

What lesser job is there out there for me??? Where are these magic fucking jobs that you want me to take?

Oh, my bad, Chris, I just found one. According to the sidebar ads on Facebook, Google can pay me $67 dollars an hour if I take the time to learn the secrets of AdSense. NYS, you can take my name off of your unemployment doll, because I'm gonna be making some mon-nay!

[Suspect Chin]

How bout this? I could go, "bite the bullet", as you say, and take a job that pays the bills, but what job would that be exactly? A job at the supermarket? At the CVS? A job where I can go and make minimum wage, and forgo the part time job I have already to make the same amount I get there, which is less than 400 a week, and make the same amount of money working full time that I make part time right now, and forgo the unemployment benefit that I get that help me pay for the rest of my bills?

I don't want to take that job at CVS, not because it's beneath me, but because it's financially stupid if I can keep my part time work and get my unemployment benefit to help me with my bills while I try to look for a job in my profession. Also, why should I take that job if I can get by with the part time plus my benefit and let someone who needs the job at CVS take it. Isn't that helping with unemployment in a second degree?

Oh, and how about, newsflash, there's not a whole lot of jobs available!

I love this "good ol fashioned American industrialism", like we're some fucking manufacturing country. I'd love if if there was a job out there just waiting for me to take it!

And college? Are you fucking with me? I ALREADY WENT TO FUCKING COLLEGE! That's sorta why I'm in the profession I've been in for the past fucking decade. That's why I've tried to start my own fucking business in the same profession. And guess the fuck what? NO ONE IS THROWING MONEY AROUND BECAUSE CREDIT IS FUCKING TIGHT AND THEIR SAVINGS FELL OUT FROM UNDERNEATH THEM SO THEIR STOCKPILING ALL OF THEIR MONEY AND NOT SPENDING IT.


Am I fucking asking for unemployment to increase? No. I'm asking for your fuckwads that think because I accept a benefit WHICH I FUCKING PAID INTO FOR THE PAST 16 YEARS that I;m not trying to get a fucking job that pays my fucking bills to not fucking blame me because I can't find a full time fucking job that you say is there and isn't.

I'm gonna fucking work a minimum wage fucking job that pays me less than the unemployment benefits, sucks away time I spend interviewing, handing out resumes and working on my work portfolio, not to mention offers zero fucking health insurance. That's your brilliant fucking answer.

At least you would have the pride of not sucking off the government tit anymore. And maybe then you would be calm enough to write a post without using the word 'fucking' 900 times.

If there aren't jobs, there aren't jobs but since you are college educated you are in a far better position than some.

[HBox]

Realistic? If she wants to keep her family's head above water, this is an option she may have to consider. Would you defend someone who drives a Cadillac but complains that they can't afford the electric bill?

You don't know what's going on in her life. Maybe she really can't for reasons none of us know or deserve to know. My point was simply that shit is cheaper in Saint Louis because income is lower in Saint Louis. It's unlikely she'd make the same amount of money there, highly unlikely. It's not as attractive an option as you presented it as. You can't just go to a poorer part of the country and make the same amount of money you did in a more affluent part of the country unless it's special circumstances.

[silera]

http://www.bestplaces.net/col/?salary=67000&city1=53462910&city2=52965000

I did the comparison. My salary in St. Louis could be 36K for what I live on here.
That's a 9K add to the budget. So if I can find a job that pays me at least 45K, I'd be set.

Thanks for solving my problem. I'm throwing the three kids and our shit in the Honda, St. Louis here we come!

[silera]

Alkey's thrilled- he said in 100 years we'll almost have saved 1 million dollars!

[HBox]

Why don't you just move to the Moon Silera? Real Estate is free. You can have the whole damn place to yourself.

[silera]

HBOX! There's GOLD in St. Louis- let's load up the wagons and start sifting!

[The Jays]

I'm gonna say fuck as many times as I want because I am fucking pissed the fuck off when I get accused that it's people like me who are the reason unemployment is so fucking high.

Oh, and I fucking care about the stigma of "sucking off the government's tit"? Listen, I fucking helped fill those fucking tits for years, this is the first time I've had to be on unemployment, I fucking pay my taxes so in case shit like getting laid off happens, I can get by for a few months, READ THAT, MONTHS, not fucking years, I have less than a year to find a job and then I'm cut the fuck off. You think I'm not fucking motivated to find a fucking job?

You're right, I am in a better position than most, AND i STILL CAN'T FIND A JOB, so you're brilliant answer is for me to take a lower paying job away from someone who doesn't have my skill set just so I can pay my bills and not collect unemployment while some other person can probably lose their unemployment because their time is up.

And you're big answer is to find a lesser job that pays less than my part time job does, and having the part time job allows me to gets some unemployment for the days I don't work. Wow, you should be the fucking Secretary of Labor.

[HBox]

HBOX! There's GOLD in St. Louis- let's load up the wagons and start sifting!

YIPPEE! It's been years since I've broken out my ole prospectin pan!

http://www.history.la.ca.us/miner.gif

[Suspect Chin]

You don't need to go to college to put in a hard day of work. I never said anything about hand outs or anything. I just think that if you don't go to college but still work and do your share you shouldn't be confined to a lifetime of struggle and poverty.

As The Jays stated, we are no longer a manufacturing nation, which is why people have to get college educations just to do the most menial of jobs in technology companies. The days of being a factory worker or coal miner and surviving in this country are essentially over. A college education is the new standard that a high school diploma used to be.



And there is not an inexhaustible amount of money for people to go to college, especially for minorities and those living in poverty and those who spent their whole school career in a joke of a school system.

I'm a college graduate and I'm not interested in looking at those who didn't graduate with disgust and tsk tsking them and pretending like every single one of them are getting what they deserve.

Come on now, the MOST amount of money is available for minorites and poor people. In fact, if your family makes too much money, you have a diminished chance of getting college aid. Everyone faces hard times growing up, but even if you went to a crappy school, if you succeeded and tried hard, I am willing to bet you would get grants and financial aid. Not trying in HS is not an excuse for not being accepted into college.

It's absolutely disgusting that this country has come to this where a hard day of work has been so devalued and we are so indifferent to other people's struggles, so fucking eager to dismiss our neighbor's undeserved crisis because their neighbor is a lazy asshole who deserves it.

The fact that a hard day's work isn't enough to survive in this country is a great thing. It keeps us on our toes and perpetuates the inventiveness that made this country great. Why should becoming lax and just riding the wave be rewarded?

[silera]

Jay- There's room in the trunk!

[HBox]

The fact that a hard day's work isn't enough to survive in this country is a great thing. It keeps us on our toes and perpetuates the inventiveness that made this country great. Why should becoming lax and just riding the wave be rewarded?

We just aren't going to agree. I care if my neighbor suffers. You think it's great. C'est la vie.

[Suspect Chin]

I wasn't truly suggesting that she move to STL. I was throwing out there that living on the East Coast is far more expensive than it is in other parts of the country.

Why should success have to come to you? If you aren't willing to make the sacrifices necessary to do well, then you should be happy to live in mediocrity.

[Suspect Chin]

We just aren't going to agree. I care if my neighbor suffers. You think it's great. C'est la vie.

Would you say the same thing if it meant you having to give 50-70% of your income in taxes so that your neighbor could live a decent life?

And I don't want my neighbor to suffer either, but if he is lazy and makes excuses for himself, then I find it hard to give up my earnings so he can get by.

[silera]

Chris, your cheering is how I've always felt. We make it. We do what we have to. The disconnect is that there are some things you just can't hurdle over.

I have to say, I always felt whatever I wanted and didn't have was my own fault. However, when you're faced with circumstances beyond your control, like illness or a international economic crisis, to blame the victim is silly and counterproductive.

[silera]

Btw Chris- mediocrity is the middle class. IT'S JUST THE MIDDLE.

[HBox]

I wasn't truly suggesting that she move to STL. I was throwing out there that living on the East Coast is far more expensive than it is in other parts of the country.

Why should success have to come to you? If you aren't willing to make the sacrifices necessary to do well, then you should be happy to live in mediocrity.

I'm not talking about success. i'm not even talking about prosperity. I'm talking about a base level of living that worthy or the times we live in for anyone who works. I'm not talking big screen TVs, great cars, even houses. I'm talking about not having to throw every cent that comes in straight out the door to barely make it, if that. I'm talking about not having to go without health insurance even though you are working 40 hours a week. I'm talking about not having to cut on groceries even though you are working full time. That's all I'm talking about. They want more? Then, as you said, go to college or do something incredible. But if not they should not have to live in the sorry state so many people do today.

[Suspect Chin]

Chris, your cheering is how I've always felt. We make it. We do what we have to. The disconnect is that there are some things you just can't hurdle over.

I have to say, I always felt whatever I wanted and didn't have was my own fault. However, when you're faced with circumstances beyond your control, like illness or a international economic crisis, to blame the victim is silly and counterproductive.

Silera, I really do appreciate your approach and I understand that bad things happen to good people. That is why the welfare/unemployment system exists in the first place. However, people that complain about decreased/low government benefits and aren't doing everything it takes to pull themselves up by the bootstraps anger me.

[HBox]

Would you say the same thing if it meant you having to give 50-70% of your income in taxes so that your neighbor could live a decent life?

And I don't want my neighbor to suffer either, but if he is lazy and makes excuses for himself, then I find it hard to give up my earnings so he can get by.

It would never take that much but yes, I would pay more taxes to secure a decent life for those who do honest work.

And I do not care for those who would be leeches either. But I'm not going make the good suffer for the bad. If a few leeches make out I don't care as long as the good, honest hard working people are taken care of. That's the most important thing to me.

[Suspect Chin]

I'm not talking about success. i'm not even talking about prosperity. I'm talking about a base level of living that worthy or the times we live in for anyone who works. I'm not talking big screen TVs, great cars, even houses. I'm talking about not having to throw every cent that comes in straight out the door to barely make it, if that. I'm talking about not having to go without health insurance even though you are working 40 hours a week. I'm talking about not having to cut on groceries even though you are working full time. That's all I'm talking about. They want more? Then, as you said, go to college or do something incredible. But if not they should not have to live in the sorry state so many people do today.

I define success in the least degree as just being able to get by. My point is that the requirements to achieve this lowest level of success have changed in this country. No longer is having a HS diploma enough to get by. People have to strive for higher education if they want to survive is this new paradigm without government assistance.

[The Jays]

I'm not complaining that unemployment benefits aren't enough... in fact, I live in a state where it's higher than most other states. I'm complaining that douchebags go and blame people like me, you know, the UNEMPLOYED, for why the unemployment rate is so high, because I choose to take a benefit that I paid into for the 16 years I've been on the books ( I mean, I wish I could have paid into it when I was off the books, but dog walking and babysitting at the age of 13 doesn't usually require a W4.)

You know, now that I think about it, maybe I should go and take that photo desk operator spot at CVS because it's not that different than designing buildings and drawing construction documents. Besides, how else should I pay off the student loan debt I have that I accumulated... hmm, how did I get it, oh, by going to college and training to be an architect.

[Suspect Chin]

It would never take that much but yes, I would pay more taxes to secure a decent life for those who do honest work.

And I do not care for those who would be leeches either. But I'm not going make the good suffer for the bad. If a few leeches make out I don't care as long as the good, honest hard working people are taken care of. That's the most important thing to me.

Why should working hard guarantee you anything? I know writers who word hard every single day but never sell a single piece. You have to be able to work hard and produce something that people actually want. Unfortunately working hard on an assembly line in this country does not seem to be something that people want anymore.

[silera]

Chris- No one is complaining about decreases. The discussion is about the blame. The idea that the length of unemployment benefits- not the lack of jobs, is what's keeping people out of work.

Welfore reform happened. It's done. With some exceptions NO ONE is on welfare for more than 5 yrs. Unemployment isnt welfare. VA benefits aren't welfare. Social security isn't welfare.

[TooLowBrow]

No longer is having a HS diploma enough to get by. People have to strive for higher education if they want to survive is this new paradigm without government assistance.

by strive you mean pay

college is way less hard than it is expensive


and a diploma is worth more that any education you might have accrued

[HBox]

Why should working hard guarantee you anything?

There's a couple ways I can answer that question.

1. Because we are the most affluent nation on the face of this planet.

2. Because if this continues we will have a massive permanent underclass who will not just continue to lie down and take it indefinitely.

[Suspect Chin]

I'm not complaining that unemployment benefits aren't enough... in fact, I live in a state where it's higher than most other states. I'm complaining that douchebags go and blame people like me, you know, the UNEMPLOYED, for why the unemployment rate is so high, because I choose to take a benefit that I paid into for the 16 years I've been on the books ( I mean, I wish I could have paid into it when I was off the books, but dog walking and babysitting at the age of 13 doesn't usually require a W4.)

You know, now that I think about it, maybe I should go and take that photo desk operator spot at CVS because it's not that different than designing buildings and drawing construction documents. Besides, how else should I pay off the student loan debt I have that I accumulated... hmm, how did I get it, oh, by going to college and training to be an architect.

I'm not blaming you for the unemployment rate being so high, and I'm definitely not saying that it is easy to find a job right now. My point is that many people make cheap excuses for not going to college or doing what it takes to get a job (move, take a lesser job, etc).

[Suspect Chin]

by strive you mean pay

college is way less hard than it is expensive


and a diploma is worth more that any education you might have accrued

Agreed. But that doesn't mean people can't get education assistance. It is very widely available for those that earn it.

[Suspect Chin]

There's a couple ways I can answer that question.

1. Because we are the most affluent nation on the face of this planet.

2. Because if this continues we will have a massive permanent underclass who will not just continue to lie down and take it indefinitely.

The underclass is 'taking it'? They made choices in their life that prevented them from reaching the middle or upper class. There is enough opportunity in this country for everyone, regardless of upbringing.

You sound like you are calling for a redistribution of wealth, where just because we have wealthy and middle class people, we have to take from them to give to the lower class. This is called socialism and has never worked.

[TheMojoPin]

I define success in the least degree as just being able to get by. My point is that the requirements to achieve this lowest level of success have changed in this country. No longer is having a HS diploma enough to get by. People have to strive for higher education if they want to survive is this new paradigm without government assistance.

And how do the poor in this country strive for higher education that's just getting more and more expensive?

It's a hideous catch-22. If you're getting government assistance, you're lazy and being poor is your fault. If you want to not be poor and getting government assistance you need to go to college but odds are you can't because you're so poor and you went to a shitty school and you can't afford to go to college and you have to work multiple jobs plus gov. aid just to survive.

[Suspect Chin]

And how do the poor in this country strive for higher education that's just getting more and more expensive?

It's a hideous catch-22. If you're getting government assistance, you're lazy and being poor is your fault. If you want to not be poor and getting government assistance you need to go to college but odds are you can't because you're so poor and you went to a shitty school and you can't afford to go to college and you have to work multiple jobs plus gov. aid just to survive.

Not true at all. There is so much college assistance available that anyone who doesn't take advantage of it is just not trying. I went to Columbia in NYC; anyone whose family makes less than 60k a year get their education paid for.

Furthermore, if you are a minority, single mother, vet., etc. There is even more money available.

[TheMojoPin]

The underclass is 'taking it'? They made choices in their life that prevented them from reaching the middle or upper class. There is enough opportunity in this country for everyone, regardless of upbringing.

This simply is not true. Please tell me that you don't believe that most people who are poor in America are poor due to choice. The playing field is most certainly not level thanks to racism and classism. Most people who are poor here are born into poverty. They don't even get a chance to make a "choice" to not be poor.

[HBox]

The underclass is 'taking it'? They made choices in their life that prevented them from reaching the middle or upper class. There is enough opportunity in this country for everyone, regardless of upbringing.

You sound like you are calling for a redistribution of wealth, where just because we have wealthy and middle class people, we have to take from them to give to the lower class. This is called socialism and has never worked.

I'm not saying it's right or justified. But having a massive rich-poor gap and large amounts of people living in poverty for long periods of time always leads to civil unrest.

And there are ways to mitigate the rich-poor gap short of simply taxing and giving hand outs.

[TheMojoPin]

Not true at all. There is so much college assistance available that anyone who doesn't take advantage of it is just not trying. I went to Columbia in NYC; anyone whose family makes less than 60k a year get their education paid for.

Furthermore, if you are a minority, single mother, vet., etc. There is even more money available.

There is not unlimited money available for anyone who wants to school, and what is out there is still largely hinged on some kind of academic achievment which cuts out most kids below the poverty line since their schools are typically educational abominations or they have to drop out to work to help support their family. Being poor or a woman or a minority isn't some kind of free pass for money.

[Suspect Chin]

This simply is not true. Please tell me that you don't believe that most people who are poor in America are poor due to choice. The playing field is most certainly not level thanks to racism and classism. Most people who are poor here are born into poverty. They don't even get a chance to make a "choice" to not be poor.

They might be born poor, but they have the choice to rise out of it. Primary education is free everywhere in this country, which then means secondary education is possible if you do well. I'm not saying it will be easy, but it can be done.

[silera]

Chris- you're making stuff up.

ANYONE first of all doesn't get into Columbia. Second of all, even if they do it's not "paid for" there's a combination of loans, grants etc. that get put together for it.

To get to Columbia you have to accumulate a "RESUME" by the time youre 18 that is basically out of reach for most people.

You have to be intelligent and well rounded and "creme de la creme" to get in. NOT EVERYONE IS.

Why should that be the prerequisite for the basics?

[TheMojoPin]

I'm not saying it's right or justified. But having a massive rich-poor gap and large amounts of people living in poverty for long periods of time always leads to civil unrest.

And there are ways to mitigate the rich-poor gap short of simply taxing and giving hand outs.

There's no motivation for that.

The FED will actually raise interest rates if unemployment dips too LOW.

"Surplus people" are an actively planned for and essential part of the current American economic structure.

[Suspect Chin]

There is not unlimited money available for anyone who wants to school, and what is out there is still largely hinged on some kind of academic achievment which cuts out most kids below the poverty line since their schools are typically educational abominations or they have to drop out to work to help support their family. Being poor or a woman or a minority isn't some kind of free pass for money.

It's not unlimited, but I have seen reports where available money goes unspent because of lack of applicants. Why should we say that poor people are unable to achieve academically? I can say that I went to an abomination of a high school but still managed an Ivy League education.

Being poor is almost certainly a free pass for college money. Being a white person from a family with any money makes it far more difficult to get college aid.

[TheMojoPin]

They might be born poor, but they have the choice to rise out of it. Primary education is free everywhere in this country, which then means secondary education is possible if you do well. I'm not saying it will be easy, but it can be done.

The choice is often not there. Your example only works if the quality of education is equal across the board. It's not. If you're poor, odds are you live in a poor area and the public schooling is horrendous. Colleges take into account both where you're from and where you went to school through HS and tend to avoid kids from poor areas because they're a financial liability.

[silera]

I got into Columbia on a full scholarship and didn't go because I was pregnant. I knew that I did not want to waste their resources, and didn't have the ability to withstand the curriculum with a newborn. I at 18- chose my child over columbia. I went to Hunter and eventually Pratt etc.

However, I earn well. Not Columbia money, but educated money. It's still not enough. I don't regret my choices, but why should I? I don't understand what you're getting at. I don't want to be rich, I don't think anyone is saying that everyone should be rich. What I am discussing is that being middle class- isn't enough anymore.

[TheMojoPin]

It's not unlimited, but I have seen reports where available money goes unspent because of lack of applicants. Why should we say that poor people are unable to achieve academically? I can say that I went to an abomination of a high school but still managed an Ivy League education.

You did not go to the public schools most of the truly poor in this nation have to endure.

And a lack of applicants doesn't mean the college will just take anyone who applies.

Being poor is almost certainly a free pass for college money. Being a white person from a family with any money makes it far more difficult to get college aid.

This simply isn't true. I gotta head to bed to be up for work tomorrow morning, but if you want to continue this discussion in PM, feel free.

[The Jays]

Jay- There's room in the trunk!

http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/618/meetmeinstlouisposter.jpg

You know, I say fuck St. Louis. Let's go to Buffalo. They have a low standard of living. Oh wait, you know why? Because there's no industry there! St. Louis, that's high society, that's all about making the big bucks producing that high quality brew Bud Light.

I'm not blaming you for the unemployment rate being so high, and I'm definitely not saying that it is easy to find a job right now. My point is that many people make cheap excuses for not going to college or doing what it takes to get a job (move, take a lesser job, etc).

I started this thread to bitch about people complaining that the people on unemployment are the reason for unemployment. Like, it's totally not the fault of the businesses that aren't making money because no one has the credit to pay their current workers, and it's totally not the fault of Wall Street who thought it'd be brilliant to sell mortgage backed securities backed by the shit that Countrywide was peddling, it's totally not the fault of our previous administration who endorsed minorities to get ARMs and live the American Dream. It's my fault, because I lost my job, and I can't find a new one, nevermind the fact that I'm using this time to take my licensing exams so that I can contribute to the economy when it gets strong again, no, it's my fucking fault because I take a couple hundred a week from New York so that I can get by on that and my measly part time check.

Now excuse me, I have an interview at the 24 hour CVS around the corner in 15 minutes, and while I am there I shall pick up some garbage bags and cat litter, and when I get back I shall file my unemployment claim for the week. It's like New Years every Saturday night at midnight!

[Suspect Chin]

Chris- you're making stuff up.

ANYONE first of all doesn't get into Columbia. Second of all, even if they do it's not "paid for" there's a combination of loans, grants etc. that get put together for it.

To get to Columbia you have to accumulate a "RESUME" by the time youre 18 that is basically out of reach for most people.

You have to be intelligent and well rounded and "creme de la creme" to get in. NOT EVERYONE IS.

Why should that be the prerequisite for the basics?

No, if your family makes below 60k it is all grants at Columbia and most of the other Ivy League schools.

I threw that out there as an example. There is plenty of opportunity to go to lesser schools if Columbia is not intellectually possible. Sometimes, just rising up out of nothing, combined with good test scores and grades is enough to get into a great school. I believe that with hard work, anyone can achieve highly enough to get into college and the admissions office tends to agree.

[Serpico1103]

This is where Republicans fall apart.

They are against non-traditional families, because the traditional family is so important to a child's growth into becoming a productive member of society.
But, they rally behind the "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" cry.
Which is it, do you need a support system to help you be success, or is every adult given the same tools to decide to be successful?

I think no amount of government support or aid can make up for a good upbringing. I do not mean a "traditional" upbringing. I mean seeing people that have healthy relationships (whether divorced and happy, married and happy, gay or happy, a parent, a teacher, an uncle, etc), and having those people guide you into being a productive member of society.

Yes, the money is there, but what is usually lacking is an upbringing that did not prepare for success in mainstream society.

To answer Chris's Columbia example. Yes, a poor kid can go to an Ivy League School, but if you don't appreciate all the pressure keeping him out, remember he is a child, than I don't think you understand the situation. A poor child doesn't understand that higher education is the way out, not without a good support system, that is all too often lacking.

[Suspect Chin]

This is where Republicans fall apart.

They are against non-traditional families, because the traditional family is so important to a child's growth into becoming a productive member of society.
But, they rally behind the "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" cry.
Which is it, do you need a support system to help you be success, or is every adult given the same tools to decide to be successful?

I think no amount of government support or aid can make up for a good upbringing. I do not mean a "traditional" upbringing. I mean seeing people that have healthy relationships (whether divorced and happy, married and happy, gay or happy, a parent, a teacher, an uncle, etc), and having those people guide you into being a productive member of society.

Yes, the money is there, but what is usually lacking is an upbringing that did not prepare for success in mainstream society.

To answer Chris's Columbia example. Yes, a poor kid can go to an Ivy League School, but if you don't appreciate all the pressure keeping him out, remember he is a child, than I don't think you understand the situation. A poor child doesn't understand that higher education is the way out, not without a good support system, that is all too often lacking.

I agree, a good upbringing is a huge component of being successful in life but it doesn't mean its not possible if you had a rough upbringing. The reality of today's America is that without an education, you will barely get by.

Being a republican doesn't fundamentally mean you are against gay marriage or non-traditional families. You are confusing religion and politics. I will be the first republican to say that religion is the biggest damaging factor in why the party has faltered of late.

[Serpico1103]

I agree, a good upbringing is a huge component of being successful in life but it doesn't mean its not possible if you had a rough upbringing. The reality of today's America is that without an education, you will barely get by.

Being a republican doesn't fundamentally mean you are against gay marriage or non-traditional families. You are confusing religion and politics. I will be the first republican to say that religion is the biggest damaging factor in why the party has faltered of late.

It is the Republicans that confuse religion and politics. If you can't acknowledge that the Republicans embraced religion (only for self-interest, not true belief), then you have missed the Christian Right movement, without which the republicans would have lost most elections in the last 12 years or so.

Republicans are against single parent households, gay households, divorce, etc. They preach how important having a family is. UNTIL. Someone says they had a bad childhood. Then republicans say "get over it."

I know I am generalizing.

[Suspect Chin]

It is the Republicans that confuse religion and politics. If you can't acknowledge that the Republicans embraced religion (only for self-interest, not true belief), then you have missed the Christian Right movement, without which the republicans would have lost most elections in the last 12 years or so.

Republicans are against single parent households, gay households, divorce, etc. They preach how important having a family is. UNTIL. Someone says they had a bad childhood. Then republicans say "get over it."

I know I am generalizing.


Of course I can see that republican embraced religion in the past years and it pains me to say that you are right, without it we would have lost elections. However, this doesn't mean that every republican agrees with the religious right. In fact, true conservative principles have nothing to do with religion.

Saying that republicans are against single and gay parent households is wrong too. These ideas are due to the infiltration of religious ideas in our party.

[The Jays]

You are right, chris, Republicans are suppose to embrace the true conservative principles such as small government, low taxes, more free market.

The Heritage Foundation is a conservative think tank, and I get to have them blaming people taking unemployment for why unemployment is high. Maybe free markets could work, maybe if business treated their workers like investments rather than commodities and went the extra mile on heath care and pensions/retirement plans, maybe if the market didn't keep trying to manipulate shit with mortgage backed securities backed with shit and sold like gold, we'd be able to get back to those conservative principles that are suppose to save the future.

But that shit ain't reality. Reality is we gotta pay higher taxes because people can't afford the basics like food and health care. We gotta pay UI tax because people get laid off so a job can be sent overseas. We gotta pay into SS because employers would rather hoard their own profits rather than give back to their workers in the form of a retirement.

It's a messed up real world we live in.

[Suspect Chin]

You are right, chris, Republicans are suppose to embrace the true conservative principles such as small government, low taxes, more free market.

The Heritage Foundation is a conservative think tank, and I get to have them blaming people taking unemployment for why unemployment is high. Maybe free markets could work, maybe if business treated their workers like investments rather than commodities and went the extra mile on heath care and pensions/retirement plans, maybe if the market didn't keep trying to manipulate shit with mortgage backed securities backed with shit and sold like gold, we'd be able to get back to those conservative principles that are suppose to save the future.

But that shit ain't reality. Reality is we gotta pay higher taxes because people can't afford the basics like food and health care. We gotta pay UI tax because people get laid off so a job can be sent overseas. We gotta pay into SS because employers would rather hoard their own profits rather than give back to their workers in the form of a retirement.

It's a messed up real world we live in.

Mortgage backed securites weren't backed with shit, they were backed with mortgages, which are backed with houses, which hold true value. The problem arose when people couldn't pay their mortgages. You might say that banks tricked people into getting mortgages they couldn't afford, but again that is an excuse, because the homeowner is ultimately the person who signed on the dotted line.

I don't think any employers are hoarding profits. Most businesses are struggling to even see profits right now, let alone hoard them. Maybe CEOs are taking exorbitant salaries, but they also have the most volatile job and are usually replaced after a few years if they do poorly and if they do well, hundreds or thousands of people get to enjoy the luxury of a job.

[The Jays]

Mortgage backed securites weren't backed with shit, they were backed with mortgages, which are backed with houses, which hold true value. The problem arose when people couldn't pay their mortgages. You might say that banks tricked people into getting mortgages they couldn't afford, but again that is an excuse, because the homeowner is ultimately the person who signed on the dotted line.

I don't think any employers are hoarding profits. Most businesses are struggling to even see profits right now, let alone hoard them. Maybe CEOs are taking exorbitant salaries, but they also have the most volatile job and are usually replaced after a few years if they do poorly and if they do well, hundreds or thousands of people get to enjoy the luxury of a job.

The house holds whatever value it gains from an overheated marketplace, with prices driven up by the high demand in housing because banks were peddling shitty mortgages and convincing people to sign on the line by saying if they ARM ever got too high for them to pay they could just refinance and since housing values never drop they could use the equity they had gained to pay down the mortgage. Meanwhile, they didn't even ask for a credit history, they would fudge their incomes, and come up with a no down payment, pay only the interest for the first five years mortgage. And they made it sound alluring too, like it was the smart thing to do.

You want to blame the homeowners, because they couldn't pay the mortgages? So you have no problem with the banks who had zero ethical standard in processing the mortgage applications, banks that didn't bother to check on the credit histories of their clients, to back these mortgages with some hard value. The banks were buuuuuurning up to get as many mortgages processed as they could because they knew they didn't need to do any credit checks or be truthful about the incomes of their clients, because whatever mortgages they had got packaged up and mixed in with the good mortgages, and once that bundle was sold, it got turned into AAA rated securities. It was an awesome fucking racket they started running, but sure, it's the homeowners fault. Just like Rick Santelli said, why bail out those losers?? You got people on Wall Street losing their jobs because hey, they happened to be in a market poisoned by the shit they had been selling, and it didn't start stinking till those ARMs started to reset.

Of course businesses aren't hoarding profits now, they can't make any. But for centuries we've had people at the top of the business world not giving a shit about the people on the bottom who got them there, and those people have the balls to complain that we have state and Federal taxes? In a free market that had some ethics, and that didn't worship St. Gordon Gecko, maybe conservative principles would work, maybe I wouldn't be on the tits of the government that I had to fill when I had a job. But that shit ain't the world we live in.

[Suspect Chin]

Ultimately, the homeowners took the loan on the conditions outlined in the contract. Predatory, perhaps, but not illegal. I would consider any corporation predatory in this regard. They identify their customers and go after them. Should every dumb consumer get their money back? If this was true, Vegas would have melted down years ago. Do you think people deep in credit card debt should get bailed out too?

[The Jays]

Let's put the homeowners on the side for a moment, you obviously believe they are losers.

I call the mortgages shit because the houses that back them had an imaginary value, a value that was based on an overinflated market. The market was overinflated due to the slew of new people getting mortgages, new people getting mortgages people banks had loosened their standards. They are shit because they had nothing of substance that said "this homeowner will definitely pay this mortgage off, I have proof, they have a good credit history, their income is awesome, and they have put x% as a down payment." The banks had zero lending standards. That's what makes these mortgages shit. The got packaged, they got sold, no one gave a shit or bothered to ask "hey is this a safe investment? Are these people going to pay back their mortgage?" By the time they figured out the answer, shit slid downhill.

[Suspect Chin]

I don't think they are losers, I think they made a poor investment that they need to take responsibility for and not expect the government to bail them out.

A lot of people are hurting from this situation including banks that provided the loans and wall street people that traded the securities so I think nearly everyone is paying the price of manufacturing an overinflated marketplace. Let's not forget however how many people made a fortune in this over inflated market including simple homeowners that just happened to be selling their house before the bubble burst.

[The Jays]

I don't think they are losers, I think they made a poor investment that they need to take responsibility for and not expect the government to bail them out.

A lot of people are hurting from this situation including banks that provided the loans and wall street people that traded the securities so I think nearly everyone is paying the price of manufacturing an overinflated marketplace. Let's not forget however how many people made a fortune in this over inflated market including simple homeowners that just happened to be selling their house before the bubble burst.

Well, the logic just seems to be faulty that banks that dealt in peddling these shit securities get to be bailed out, you know, businesses which make a shitload of money, but the ones on the bottom of this, who probably thought the mortgages were a good idea, who got talked into getting a larger mortgage by a bank who fudged their application, yeah, they can go fuck themselves.

[Suspect Chin]

Well, the logic just seems to be faulty that banks that dealt in peddling these shit securities get to be bailed out, you know, businesses which make a shitload of money, but the ones on the bottom of this, who probably thought the mortgages were a good idea, who got talked into getting a larger mortgage by a bank who fudged their application, yeah, they can go fuck themselves.

I don't think anyone should be bailed out, especially not the banks or security traders.

[The Jays]

I don't think anyone should be bailed out, especially not the banks or security traders.

Even though we didn't just give our money away like throwing it out a window, we got some stock in the companies we bail out, and that they have to pay back the money we gave them, basically taking a risk that could end up being good for the underlying structure of the financial system (ruined by mortgage back securities) and profitable to the US thus trimming some of the deficits that got pushed high under a certain Republican president, and maybe paying for some of that new healthcare reform proposed under a certain Democratic president?

Or, I guess we could do the boring thing and just clean out the Treasury, pay off all our war deficits and just keep charging SS and Medicare to our Chinese credit card until that gets unsustainable. Then we can just shitcan those programs because they suck.

[TheMojoPin]

I agree, a good upbringing is a huge component of being successful in life but it doesn't mean its not possible if you had a rough upbringing. The reality of today's America is that without an education, you will barely get by.

And the reality of today's America is that if you are near or below the poverty line odds are you won't get a shot at getting equal or adequate education, much less higher education. It's not even an option. College is not a choice everyone has.

It's admirable that according to you you went to a "bad" school, but the people we're talking about would look at your school as a godsend. The people we're talking about don't even think about college because they have next to no chance of going. The people we're talking about aren't posting on wesbites like this and like don't have a computer at all and most of them are not in that situation by choice.

[foodcourtdruide]

I have this argument with co-workers all the time. They are convinced that everyone in this country has an equal opportunity to succeed. I have no answer for them, I feel like I'm talking to people who live in an alternate reality. Some poor people will transcend poverty, but the vast majority will not. Does that mean they are lazy? A small percentage may be lazy, but what do you do with the rest? Blame them for being poor? Punish them for being poor? I think some people read Ayn Rand and see Objectivism as a viable philosophy and way to approach life, others read her work and see it as a naive perception of reality that doesn't work and just exists to explain away the guilt felt from our feasting while others starve.

It's so ironic to me that the people who scream the loudest about religion and morality lack compassion the most.

[Coach]

I don't like being on Unemployment..but it pays the bills while I train for a new job.
Also..when that training is over..I have about a month before the company that promised me that job if I got training..starts hiring.

[angrymissy]

Right, you shouldn't have to make sacrifices and work your ass off to be able to survive in this country. You are just providing excuses for asking for a free ride.

"College isn't for everyone", well then apparently success isn't either.

As I said, there is so much money available for college that money is never an excuse, and if you say it is, you are just defending your own laziness. Don't make excuses for people that made poor decisions when they were in HS or college age. The mistakes we make when we are young dictate the success we experience as we grow old.

Money is an excuse. You have a pretty fucking limited knowledge of how the world works.

I couldn't get shit for college money because my Dad owed money to the IRS. No loans, nothing.

Even if I HAD the money, somehow, it would have came down to going to work to help out my Dad and 2 younger siblings and being able to eat, or going to college.

Regardless, I make a pretty fucking damned good living without a degree... and will hopefully never have to move to shitty St. Louis. Maybe Silera doesn't want her kids to get fucking shot when they leave the house.

[angrymissy]

Not true at all. There is so much college assistance available that anyone who doesn't take advantage of it is just not trying. I went to Columbia in NYC; anyone whose family makes less than 60k a year get their education paid for.

Furthermore, if you are a minority, single mother, vet., etc. There is even more money available.

That is a fucking gigantic lie.

You do not automatically get your education paid for if your family makes less than 60k a year.

Holy shit. Wow. Just. Fucking. Wow.

My Dad makes $45k a year and my brother is currently attending community college. His aid does not even pay for his entire community college education, we are expected to have a EFC of $3500 a year.

[angrymissy]

No, if your family makes below 60k it is all grants at Columbia and most of the other Ivy League schools.

I threw that out there as an example. There is plenty of opportunity to go to lesser schools if Columbia is not intellectually possible. Sometimes, just rising up out of nothing, combined with good test scores and grades is enough to get into a great school. I believe that with hard work, anyone can achieve highly enough to get into college and the admissions office tends to agree.

No. Again. Lies. I got into several schools and 100% could not go at all, simply due to money and money alone. You are in fantasy land. Who on Earth told you this? This is crazy talk.

Please point me to these magic grants so my brother can take advantage of them!!!

We couldn't even get fucking free lunch at school as a 3 kids headed up by a widowed father making $35k. You don't know what the hell you're talking about.

[Serpico1103]

No. Again. Lies. I got into several schools and 100% could not go at all, simply due to money and money alone. You are in fantasy land. Who on Earth told you this? This is crazy talk.
Please point me to these magic grants so my brother can take advantage of them!!!
We couldn't even get fucking free lunch at school as a 3 kids headed up by a widowed father making $35k. You don't know what the hell you're talking about.

I know money is a problem. But, I think the bigger problem is the lack of social support system for underprivileged children. They need to be exposed to the world that a college and post graduate education can bring. They need help understanding that the sacrifice they make to stay in school will pay off.

Loans, grants, scholarships are there. The understanding of what a college education brings is not.

[Suspect Chin]

No. Again. Lies. I got into several schools and 100% could not go at all, simply due to money and money alone. You are in fantasy land. Who on Earth told you this? This is crazy talk.

Please point me to these magic grants so my brother can take advantage of them!!!

We couldn't even get fucking free lunch at school as a 3 kids headed up by a widowed father making $35k. You don't know what the hell you're talking about.

Wow you really are angry. Do a google search and you will see that I am right about Columbia and most other Ivy League schools. This was only announced in the last year or so. Obviously not everyone can get into these schools, but there is still plenty of money available for other schools. My gf had a similar situation as yours with a family with bad credit and tax debt. She had to dig a little deeper to find loans, but she managed to get her education financed.

I agree with Serpico that the problem is not money, it is getting kids the understanding of the value of a college education that is lacking. I won't pretend to have the answer to this.

[angrymissy]

Wow you really are angry. Do a google search and you will see that I am right about Columbia and most other Ivy League schools. This was only announced in the last year or so. Obviously not everyone can get into these schools, but there is still plenty of money available for other schools. My gf had a similar situation as yours with a family with bad credit and tax debt. She had to dig a little deeper to find loans, but she managed to get her education financed.

Angry? Absolutely. I had to forgo college for one reason and one reason alone... MONEY. So yeah, it's a little aggravating to see someone acting like it's just sooo fucking easy and there is soooo much money out there that anyone would be able to go to college if they wanted to. I desperately wanted to go to college and couldn't becuase of money.

I agree with Serpico that the problem is not money, it is getting kids the understanding of the value of a college education that is lacking. I won't pretend to have the answer to this.

I dug as deep as possible and could not get shit. I had massive amounts of people trying to assist me and hit a gigantic brick wall each time. Tax debt = ineligible for Federal Grants or loans. Bad Credit = not possible to get private loans.

Lets say Ivy League schools pay your way under $60k. Most underprivileged children are not going to be able to get into Harvard. Then what? Tough Shit, I guess. My brother is lucky he has my sister and I to help out, or he'd be fucked, money-wise, and he's only going to Community College right now.

It's really easy to sit and judge and say how easy it is to go to College if you're poor, when you've never had to jump through the hurdles required. Even with the money covered, many, many low income people have other obligations that have to come before college.

It also pisses me off when people say "just move!", as if it is the easiest thing in the world to do. Guess what, when you're broke, you don't have fucking money to move with. You don't have a guarantee you'll have a job wherever you're moving to. I can guarantee I wouldn't make $65k doing what I do in St. Louis, I'd be lucky to find a job paying me $10/hr.

I just checked craigslist. I'm an Executive Assistant. If I worked in the city here, I could be making $90k+, but I don't feel like commuting. If I wanted to work in the city of St. Louis, I'd make approx $12/hr... about $25k. More than 50% less.

Hey but maybe no one will be hiring Exec Assts, so I'll take a secretary spot instead. Looks like I'd make a whopping $8/hr doing that in St. Louis.

[Suspect Chin]

I wasn't truly suggesting that anyone move to Saint Louis. My point was that the cost of living on the East (and West) coast has outpaced the pay rates making it difficult for the middle class to survive there. It is much easier to be middle class in the midwest because of the lower cost of living. I wouldn't wish midwest living on anyone that could avoid it.

Here is the Columbia info:

http://www.studentaffairs.columbia.edu/finaid/enhancements/faq.php

Again, this is a recent development and would not have been available when you applied.

[angrymissy]

I wasn't truly suggesting that anyone move to Saint Louis. My point was that the cost of living on the East (and West) coast has outpaced the pay rates making it difficult for the middle class to survive there. It is much easier to be middle class in the midwest because of the lower cost of living. I wouldn't wish midwest living on anyone that could avoid it.

Here is the Columbia info:

http://www.studentaffairs.columbia.edu/finaid/enhancements/faq.php

Again, this is a recent development and would not have been available when you applied.

And how does that help kids who can't get into an Ivy League school? Which would be the majority of the college going population... Like I said, my Dad makes $45k a year, and according to the Government, we are expected to contribute a few thousand a year towards my brothers education. If he didn't have my sister and I to help financially, he'd be pretty fucked.

[silera]

Chris, I think the arguments you're making do not address the bigger picture. The pie in the sky dream of growing up really poor and making it to Yale- aka Sotomayor, do not reflect the reality for most people. Endowments at Ivy League schools do not reflect the realities for most other schools- specifically state schools.

You're left with a VAST majority of people that are not on the same footing. You're position basically implies that 80 % of Americans that earn less than 100k- not the poor, not the destitute, but the middle class simply don't make enough to do more than just consume. Lack of savings coupled with debt is a recipe for disaster, but it is the reality for far too many Americans.

Your straw man argument would conclude that all of Sotomayors peers in the projects are losers for not getting into Yale as well.

[The Jays]

Chris, I think the arguments you're making do not address the bigger picture. The pie in the sky dream of growing up really poor and making it to Yale- aka Sotomayor, do not reflect the reality for most people. Endowments at Ivy League schools do not reflect the realities for most other schools- specifically state schools.

You're left with a VAST majority of people that are not on the same footing. You're position basically implies that 80 % of Americans that earn less than 100k- not the poor, not the destitute, but the middle class simply don't make enough to do more than just consume. Lack of savings coupled with debt is a recipe for disaster, but it is the reality for far too many Americans.

Your straw man argument would conclude that all of Sotomayors peers in the projects are losers for not getting into Yale as well.

But at least they have affordable health care as long as they make sure they work for a corporation.

[Suspect Chin]

My point is that a college education is way more achievable than most people want to admit. I didn't say anyone is a loser, I said that people make up too many excuses for why they didn't go to college. The opportunity is there but people are taking not it. Of course as people have stated, a lot of this has to do with upbringing, but that doesn't make my argument any less true.

Having a college degree is the new diploma necessary for decent success in this country. A HS diploma isn't sufficient anymore.

Back to the Saint Louis thing, middle class people here in the midwest are getting by just fine. Sure, unemployment is up, but those with jobs are able to pay their bills. On the coasts, where the cost of living has outpaced the income levels, this may not be the case. I know this doesn't help those of you on the coasts, but realize that this isn't a problem everyone is facing.

I won't pretend to have the solution to getting kids from poverty to do what it takes to go to college, but the opportunity and money is there. Yeah it will take way more hard work and endurance than some white kid from the suburbs, but the opportunity is not lost.

[silera]

Chris, please read this:

The Over-Consumption Mythand Other Tales of Economics, Law and Morality
by Elizabeth Warren

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:wI-9DOPxylsJ:www.yale.edu/law/leo/052005/papers/Warren.pdf+%22the+over+consumption+myth%22&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

[Suspect Chin]

I will read it. Thank you.

[Doctor Z]

Sorry if this offends anyone, but I can vouch for this article from personal experience. My roommate's been unemployed for 8 months, and he still doesn't have a job. He hardly spends time looking for a new one, and why should he? The government is paying him well to sit around and do nothing! Why the fuck would you hit the pavement looking for a new job in a dead economy when you're getting free money from the government?

[Serpico1103]

Sorry if this offends anyone, but I can vouch for this article from personal experience. My roommate's been unemployed for 8 months, and he still doesn't have a job. He hardly spends time looking for a new one, and why should he? The government is paying him well to sit around and do nothing! Why the fuck would you hit the pavement looking for a new job in a dead economy when you're getting free money from the government?

Because when that money runs and he looks for a job, how will he explain the hole in his resume. Is he doing anything productive?
Of course people can abuse the system, but they hurt themselves more than the system itself.

[JackieJokeMan]

More clearly, the median income in 1984 for NJ was 53K. The median income in NJ now is 67k.

67K in 2009 is the equivalent of 111K in 1984. http://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm That means that my income a generation ago would have been twice the median income for the state.

Our income has not kept up with cost of living. It's just not adding up.

Actually Silera, you did the math wrong.

According to that site, 67K in 2009 is 33K in 1984.

But your point holds. The median income has dropped from 53K in 1984 to 33K in 2009, using 1984 dollars.

[silera]

Thanks Jackie. I was staring at that last night confused and too drunk to figure out why my head wasn't wrapping around it...

[Tenbatsuzen]

Sorry if this offends anyone, but I can vouch for this article from personal experience. My roommate's been unemployed for 8 months, and he still doesn't have a job. He hardly spends time looking for a new one, and why should he? The government is paying him well to sit around and do nothing! Why the fuck would you hit the pavement looking for a new job in a dead economy when you're getting free money from the government?

To me, unemployment was OK for about a month. I was burned out, I needed to recharge my batteries. But after a month, I was going crazy with nothing to do.

[TheMojoPin]

Sorry if this offends anyone, but I can vouch for this article from personal experience. My roommate's been unemployed for 8 months, and he still doesn't have a job. He hardly spends time looking for a new one, and why should he? The government is paying him well to sit around and do nothing! Why the fuck would you hit the pavement looking for a new job in a dead economy when you're getting free money from the government?

Because it's not indeifnite and it doesn't pay well at all. If he's got few expenses and willing to live light or he had money saved up, I guess it could be stretched to be "well," but if you've got even just the normal round of monthly bills that the average middle or lower class person has to face that's nowhere near being good money.

[The Jays]

Yeah, if that's your roommate, and he does shit to look for a job, I'd start looking for a new roommate, because his benefits will run out and then he's going to start grubbing off of you, and having you pay his share of the rent and utilities.

[TripleSkeet]

Because when that money runs and he looks for a job, how will he explain the hole in his resume. Is he doing anything productive?
Of course people can abuse the system, but they hurt themselves more than the system itself.

No they wont. Heres the explanation they will use... "There was a recession and I just couldnt get a job anywhere."

I personally know a few people on unemployment. You have to realize situations are all different. One guy is 26 and lives with his parents. So why the fuck would he work? He worked at Comcast for 6 months and has been collecting unemployment for over a year now.

I know a girl thats married with kids. Her job was the secondary income. So instead of going out and getting a fulltime job she got a job paying under the table 1 day a week and has been collecting unemployment for 13 months now. Why would she get a full time job when she could make the same money with unemployment and one day a week and get to spend the rest of her time with her kids?

Dont get me wrong, I know its not everyone. I know there are plenty of people out there trying to find work that just cant. And that they dont want unemployment. But there are also PLENTY of people out there that have no reason to go find a job, especially in the summertime, when they can just get a check every 2 weeks for nothing.

[Friday]

Dont get me wrong, I know its not everyone. I know there are plenty of people out there trying to find work that just cant. And that they dont want unemployment. But there are also PLENTY of people out there that have no reason to go find a job, especially in the summertime, when they can just get a check every 2 weeks for nothing.

you're right... it's not everyone.
i went 4 months without applying for unemployment because i had some savings and i didn't want to milk the system when i knew that i had ten years of experience and expertise under my belt.

but when i realized that it would be insanely hard to even get an interview.... and i paid my taxes and saw my savings go down... i decided to apply for the extension that was waiting for me. because without anything coming in... i would eventually flounder. so yeah, i am ok with using my benefits now... while i am still applying every day for work in my field.

and i have an interview this week... which is huge in this ridiculous economy...
they used to take whoever in face to face... but there are SO many people now that potential employers are able to pick and choose.
not everyone realizes how scary these times are...

[The Jays]

He worked for six months and has been able to collect unemployment for over a year? What rules does PA have? And how much could he possible be getting for six month of work that he paid into it? New York's max is 405 per week, and that's if you worked for a few years at a good paying job, and that's one of the highest payouts in the country. On top of it, that dude needs to pay taxes, both Federally and to the state, on that income he's getting.

I mean, hey, if he thinks he's beating the system by living with his parents and getting a couple hundred bucks a week while not getting a job, he sounds like a winner, and he's certainly going to be well off when his UI runs out and he has to realize "shit, I have no fucking career."

[The Jays]

you're right... it's not everyone.
i went 4 months without applying for unemployment because i had some savings and i didn't want to milk the system when i knew that i had ten years of experience and expertise under my belt.

but when i realized that it would be insanely hard to even get an interview.... and i paid my taxes and saw my savings go down... i decided to apply for the extension that was waiting for me. because without anything coming in... i would eventually flounder. so yeah, i am ok with using my benefits now... while i am still applying every day for work in my field.

and i have an interview this week... which is huge in this ridiculous economy...
they used to take whoever in face to face... but there are SO many people now that potential employers are able to pick and choose.
not everyone realizes how scary these times are...

I am in the same boat. I'm applying every day to jobs, responding to the ads I see that fit my skill set. I've gotten two interviews over 5 months.

[TripleSkeet]

He worked for six months and has been able to collect unemployment for over a year? What rules does PA have? And how much could he possible be getting for six month of work that he paid into it? New York's max is 405 per week, and that's if you worked for a few years at a good paying job, and that's one of the highest payouts in the country. On top of it, that dude needs to pay taxes, both Federally and to the state, on that income he's getting.

I mean, hey, if he thinks he's beating the system by living with his parents and getting a couple hundred bucks a week while not getting a job, he sounds like a winner, and he's certainly going to be well off when his UI runs out and he has to realize "shit, I have no fucking career."

I think he gets something like $575 a check every two weeks. The best part is he got fired because he just decided that he wanted to be able to take his work van home with him at night, without asking or anything.

And yea, the kids a complete douchebag, but thats not the point. The point is there are plenty of people out there that are more then happy to just get by with what they are getting from the government instead of having to go to work.

Ive never filed for unemployment, and Ive been working legit since I was 15. Even when I lost a job I worked for 10 years and I was paying for my wedding I didnt collect. Best part is now for the first time I tried because Im going through a really hard patch right now. My night job is off until August. So I tried to collect and was told I couldnt because I didnt work there enough last year. This is a job that hires every August and their season goes til April. So I worked for 9 months and paid into it but because only 5 months of which were from last year, they turned me down.

[The Jays]

Wow, not only does the kid sound like a douchebag, but your state sounds like a douchebag too. If he was fired, he shouldn't be getting anything, yet he is. EDIT: I'm wrong, he can only be turned down if he quits; normally firings do let you claim. Stil, he got fired over use of the van. That's messed up.

And as for you, I don't know why your state is being such a dick about one part of your 9 months being part of last year, and part being this year, you still had 9 months of continuous employment that you paid into.

I can understand not taking the claim when you could have, I did the same thing years ago, but it was a different economy then, and I could find ways to get by. Nowadays, it's different, and there's not shit out there, so I figure, hey, better take it since I paid into it because I don't know if could make it without, and I am glad I did, because there's shit out there, and it really does help.

[TripleSkeet]

Wow, not only does the kid sound like a douchebag, but your state sounds like a douchebag too. If he was fired, he shouldn't be getting anything, yet he is. EDIT: I'm wrong, he can only be turned down if he quits; normally firings do let you claim. Stil, he got fired over use of the van. That's messed up.

And as for you, I don't know why your state is being such a dick about one part of your 9 months being part of last year, and part being this year, you still had 9 months of continuous employment that you paid into.

I can understand not taking the claim when you could have, I did the same thing years ago, but it was a different economy then, and I could find ways to get by. Nowadays, it's different, and there's not shit out there, so I figure, hey, better take it since I paid into it because I don't know if could make it without, and I am glad I did, because there's shit out there, and it really does help.

Best part is Im working 2 jobs under the table right now and I still need the unemployment to make ends meet.

I just got hit with a shitstorm at once. It was the season ending, a death in the family that cost me 20k a year, my wife giving birth to my 2nd kid, and her being on disability which by the way is a motherfucking pain in the ass.

Her first disability check took 22 days to get here. After her 3rd they sent her a form that she had to take to her doctor to get filled out (took 7 days) and then send back before theyll send anymore money. Havent gotten one in 3 weeks.

It just really bothers me that I work like a Jamaican and yet I still cant get any help making ends meet. But I am reapplying for my unemployment. Ill go to the union if I have to.

[TripleSkeet]

Wow, not only does the kid sound like a douchebag, but your state sounds like a douchebag too. If he was fired, he shouldn't be getting anything, yet he is. EDIT: I'm wrong, he can only be turned down if he quits; normally firings do let you claim. Stil, he got fired over use of the van. That's messed up.


Not use of the van, over TAKING IT HOME WITHOUT PERMISSION. You dont just get your own truck when you work for Comcast. You drive to work then get in the van. After youve been there a long time sometimes theyll let guys have their own work truck, but its not guaranteed. He decided 6 months was enough time put in so he was just gonna start taking it home after work every day.

[Serpico1103]

Best part is Im working 2 jobs under the table right now and I still need the unemployment to make ends meet.
I just got hit with a shitstorm at once. It was the season ending, a death in the family that cost me 20k a year, my wife giving birth to my 2nd kid, and her being on disability which by the way is a motherfucking pain in the ass.
Her first disability check took 22 days to get here. After her 3rd they sent her a form that she had to take to her doctor to get filled out (took 7 days) and then send back before theyll send anymore money. Havent gotten one in 3 weeks.
It just really bothers me that I work like a Jamaican and yet I still cant get any help making ends meet. But I am reapplying for my unemployment. Ill go to the union if I have to.

Is this ESD? Two kids, struggling to make ends meet? Fez has some advice for your wife.