As You've Grown Older...

[Gvac]

...have you found yourself moving more toward one side of the political spectrum? That is, have you become more liberal or more conservative over the years?

I know the norm is for people to move to the right, but I know quite a few people who have done the opposite.

[underdog]

I've definitely moved to the left. Just adding my own life experiences has made me more compassionate to my fellow people.

[NateCantDance]

I've moved left. I understand that this is contrary to the perceived norm, but I was raised in a very conservative part of the country, and as I've grown older I've come to question the beliefs of those around me.

[beachbum]

I've moved a little to the right.Just to be trite and hack I will say that I am more fiscally conservative and socially liberal.I rarely vote for a republican.This may change if they ever wrest control of the party from the religious wing.

[sailor]

I've moved a little to the right.Just to be trite and hack I will say that I am more fiscally conservative and socially liberal.I rarely vote for a republican.This may change if they ever wrest control of the party from the religious wing.

why would that be trite and hack?

[Tallman388]

I've moved slightly to the left. I registered as an independent and find myself hating nearly all of our politicians. I like to think I maintain some sense of objectivity.

[Zorro]

It's frightening to think anyone could "stay where they were" as they grew up.

[KatPw]

I've moved very left.

[Fez4PrezN2008]

I've moved very left.
Ditto, but I have also become way more skeptical and pessimistic about all politicians.

[Farmer Dave]

From out of college to about 37 years old-party line republican

Last few years-libitarian (sp) would be a better discription.

Do what you want, I'll stay out of it as long as you don't ask me to pay for it.

[Farmer Dave]

Ditto, but I have also become way more skeptical and pessimistic about all politicians.

That too.

[Foster]

I grew up in a very conservative family, and where as I have moved away from that, I don't see myself really moving closer to left. Listening to both parties and their never wavering stance on issues is just making me sick of politics all together.

[KatPw]

Ditto, but I have also become way more skeptical and pessimistic about all politicians.

Same here.

[ChrisTheCop]

As many above, I grew up in a conservative family, and jumped left as soon as I could to identify myself as an individual; I'm still a registered democrat. But as I get older, I become more and more conservative. Even though I consider myself "middle of the road" I'm definitely on the right side of the median.

[beachbum]

why would that be trite and hack?

I don't know,it just seems that alot of people will say that now.My parents were always Democrats not real tree huggers just democrats.My dad died a few years ago but no matter how much money he made he stayed to the left of the political spectrum.My mom has leaned more and more to the right as the years have gone on.


My main problem with the right is that they always blame the left for spending too much while when they are in control they do exactly the same thing.They just spend on or give to different interest groups.

If we can give mega billions of dollars away to corporate farms,oil companies,and every other part of the corporate machine in tax incentives etc.,why can't we make sure that old people get their medicine and children don't have to go hungry?

I'm sure I'll be attacked for that last paragraph but fuck it.I don't think the country has it's priorities right.I feel that we have more of an obligation to care for the least among us than we do to the ones who have the most.

[SP1!]

I know the norm is for people to move to the right, but I know quite a few people who have done the opposite.

Those are the stupid people who refuse to admit a persons spot in life is earned, quit making excuses for the losers people.

[underdog]

Those are the stupid people who refuse to admit a persons spot in life is earned, quit making excuses for the losers people.

Good job not breaking character.

[STC-Dub]

I have grown to hate politicians of both sides more, but stayed about the same on the political spectrum.

[IMSlacker]

To move to either the left or right would mean admitting I was wrong to begin with, and that's never going to happen.

[Serpico1103]

I think people seem to become more conservative as they get older because every person can tolerate so much change during their life time. Someone who grew up before racial equality saw their fill of change, any more change would seem radical. My grandmother was born before women had rights, before blacks had equality, before Asians could be citizens, before cars were common, before TV, before radios were in every house. She has not so much become conservative as much as her liberalism has reached its limit. IMO.

[Suspect Chin]

I think people become more conservative because as they get older their salary and net worth increases. It is easy to be liberal when you are young because you are the one reaping the benefits of the entitlement system. Once you get older and start being the one paying for the entitlement system, it becomes a lot more difficult to part with your earnings.

[Alice S. Fuzzybutt]

I've always been pretty liberal, but I seem to go more to the left as I get older.

[Suspect Chin]

I've always been pretty liberal, but I seem to go more to the left as I get older.

Why?

[Snoogans]

id have to say im where Ive always been, just knowing more of it.

I used to be pretty fuckin middle but didnt know much of anything about it, and now i know alot more than I did and im still pretty fuckin middle

[The Jays]

I think people become more conservative because as they get older their salary and net worth increases. It is easy to be liberal when you are young because you are the one reaping the benefits of the entitlement system. Once you get older and start being the one paying for the entitlement system, it becomes a lot more difficult to part with your earnings.

Wow, where did you come from? Did the planet Conserviton explode and deliver you in a globe fashioned out of diamond and lined with old copies of the National Review?

[Alice S. Fuzzybutt]

Why?

Life experience.

I live in an area that's being gentrified (Jersey City). I hear so many people say how they should just raze the projects to get rid of the "bad element." What about the honest, hard working people who live there? What about them?

It just disgusts me that poor people are all lumped together as "the bad element."

And the Bush/Cheney reign of terror made me want to slap on patchouli and sell friendship bracelets at Rat Dog shows.

[Suspect Chin]

Wow, where did you come from? Did the planet Conserviton explode and deliver you in a globe fashioned out of diamond and lined with old copies of the National Review?

Stop acting like there isn't room on here for a conservative viewpoint. I could easily say that Rachel Maddow shit you out with the rhetoric you are repeating. What is so absurd about wanting to keep my earnings and not have to pay out to bail out every one that screws up? If I get the itch to help my fellow man, I can easily donate my time or money.

[The Jays]

Stop acting like there isn't room on here for a conservative viewpoint. I could easily say that Rachel Maddow shit you out with the rhetoric you are repeating. What is so absurd about wanting to keep my earnings and not have to pay out to bail out every one that screws up? If I get the itch to help my fellow man, I can easily donate my time or money.

Hey, there's plenty of room for it, but it's going to be a battle when your conservative viewpoint is that every young person reaps the benefits of entitlements and slowly turns to a conservative as they get older. Truth is, we have a lot of baby boomers about to reap the benefits of social security as they begin to retire, and they're going to be heavily dependent on those checks because their 401ks went to shit thanks to the economic meltdown.

And honestly, I don't run into people who support Democrats just because they get food stamps or Medicare. I see them supporting them because the free market hasn't helped out with health care so the government is kinda the last resort.

And what rhetoric am I repeating? That the market failed us as a country? That people need a helping hand as a result? Wow, I must be brainwashed by MSNBC.

[keithy_19]

I grew up in a conservative family. With that being said, I'm the most liberal in my family. Let people do what they want. Gay marriage? Sure. Drugs? Legalize them. Abortion? For some, mini American flags for everyone.

But as I get older I start to hate the government more. So the smaller less involved it is with my life, the better.

And I'd like to point out, The_Jays is a die hard republican. Was a little to the left as a youngster, but has completely jumped shipped and gone completely right.

[Suspect Chin]

Hey, there's plenty of room for it, but it's going to be a battle when your conservative viewpoint is that every young person reaps the benefits of entitlements and slowly turns to a conservative as they get older. Truth is, we have a lot of baby boomers about to reap the benefits of social security as they begin to retire, and they're going to be heavily dependent on those checks because their 401ks went to shit thanks to the economic meltdown.

And honestly, I don't run into people who support Democrats just because they get food stamps or Medicare. I see them supporting them because the free market hasn't helped out with health care so the government is kinda the last resort.

And what rhetoric am I repeating? That the market failed us as a country? That people need a helping hand as a result? Wow, I must be brainwashed by MSNBC.

Young people are getting freebies from the government (via their parents' taxes) in the form of primary education, roads, clean water, etc. Once they get out in the workplace and make a career for themselves, they realize how burdensome taxes are and don't like the idea of paying for people that made poor choices while they made good choices.

Actually the free market has helped out with health care because most companies that are doing well pay for the majority portion of employees' health care deductibles. Also, the free market competition has kept the cost of health care to a somewhat manageable level. Imagine if the government takes over health care. The administrative costs will soar and the quality will greatly diminish.

[Snoogans]

I grew up in a conservative family. With that being said, I'm the most liberal in my family. Let people do what they want. Gay marriage? Sure. Drugs? Legalize them. Abortion? For some, mini American flags for everyone.

But as I get older I start to hate the government more. So the smaller less involved it is with my life, the better.

And I'd like to point out, The_Jays is a die hard republican. Was a little to the left as a youngster, but has completely jumped shipped and gone completely right.

Well just by nature, the younger people would be the most liberal of the majority of families. Just cause they are younger, and want to do and experience more, and like someone else said, dont have the financial impacts older people do.

[The Jays]

I grew up in a conservative family. With that being said, I'm the most liberal in my family. Let people do what they want. Gay marriage? Sure. Drugs? Legalize them. Abortion? For some, mini American flags for everyone.

But as I get older I start to hate the government more. So the smaller less involved it is with my life, the better.

And I'd like to point out, The_Jays is a die hard republican. Was a little to the left as a youngster, but has completely jumped shipped and gone completely right.

That's right. Let's get free market healthcare for those fucking libs so that we can surgically sew their stupid mouths up.

Gay marriage, drugs, abortion are all really individual choices, so, those aren't really liberal ideas, more libertarian ideas, harkening back to not having the government tell you what you can and cannot do.

[The Jays]

Young people are getting freebies from the government (via their parents' taxes) in the form of primary education, roads, clean water, etc. Once they get out in the workplace and make a career for themselves, they realize how burdensome taxes are and don't like the idea of paying for people that made poor choices while they made good choices.

Actually the free market has helped out with health care because most companies that are doing well pay for the majority portion of employees' health care deductibles. Also, the free market competition has kept the cost of health care to a somewhat manageable level. Imagine if the government takes over health care. The administrative costs will soar and the quality will greatly diminish.

Having a kid that goes to public school is a poor choice? Driving on a road that tolls and highway taxes paid for is a poor choice? Clean water for everyone is a poor choice?

How has the free market helped with health care? I have to work for a successful business in order to get basic health care? What if I am my own business and work as a freelancer, am I fucked, even though I have the entrepreneurial spirit and go-getterness of the ideal American working man? The costs are at reasonable levels? Really? 500 dollars a month is reasonable for healthcare? That's how much I have to pay with COBRA.

[Suspect Chin]

Having a kid that goes to public school is a poor choice? Driving on a road that tolls and highway taxes paid for is a poor choice? Clean water for everyone is a poor choice?

How has the free market helped with health care? I have to work for a successful business in order to get basic health care? What if I am my own business and work as a freelancer, am I fucked, even though I have the entrepreneurial spirit and go-getterness of the ideal American working man? The costs are at reasonable levels? Really? 500 dollars a month is reasonable for healthcare? That's how much I have to pay with COBRA.

I didn't say any of those were bad ideas, I said that most young people don't have to pay for them. Once they do have to pay for them, they don't want to also have to pay to bail out people that made poor choices. I believe that the things I listed are the good and necessary things our taxes go for.

Free enterprise has allowed companies to prosper which in turn allows them to absorb much of the cost of health care premiums for their employees. Paying for health care out of pocket is one of the expenses that comes along with having your own business.

$500 a month for COBRA is a lot, but corporations buy health care in bulk and pay the majority of the cost, allowing the employees to enjoy lower monthly premiums.

[keithy_19]

That's right. Let's get free market healthcare for those fucking libs so that we can surgically sew their stupid mouths up.

Gay marriage, drugs, abortion are all really individual choices, so, those aren't really liberal ideas, more libertarian ideas, harkening back to not having the government tell you what you can and cannot do.

Guilty.

[The Jays]

I didn't say any of those were bad ideas, I said that most young people don't have to pay for them. Once they do have to pay for them, they don't want to also have to pay to bail out people that made poor choices. I believe that the things I listed are the good and necessary things our taxes go for.

Free enterprise has allowed companies to prosper which in turn allows them to absorb much of the cost of health care premiums for their employees. Paying for health care out of pocket is one of the expenses that comes along with having your own business.

$500 a month for COBRA is a lot, but corporations buy health care in bulk and pay the majority of the cost, allowing the employees to enjoy lower monthly premiums.

So, if I am my own business, I get punished because my own health insurance is higher than the corporations who get to buy in bulk? That seems totally fair.

What makes you think that you're bailing out people who made bad choices? Let's say I know someone, middle aged guy, worked hard, but couldn't work for a company that offered health insurance. He gets sick, like really sick, sky high medical bills because he's operated on, loses his job because he's too sick to work, has to file bankruptcy because his medical bills are out of control. If he needs welfare and food stamps, you're going to look down on him because he made poor choices and had to go on welfare to pay for food?

[Suspect Chin]

So, if I am my own business, I get punished because my own health insurance is higher than the corporations who get to buy in bulk? That seems totally fair.

What makes you think that you're bailing out people who made bad choices? Let's say I know someone, middle aged guy, worked hard, but couldn't work for a company that offered health insurance. He gets sick, like really sick, sky high medical bills because he's operated on, loses his job because he's too sick to work, has to file bankruptcy because his medical bills are out of control. If he needs welfare and food stamps, you're going to look down on him because he made poor choices and had to go on welfare to pay for food?

You aren't getting punished for having your own business, you simply have an additional operating cost. Do you think liquor stores should have to pay the same amount as you pay for a shot at the bar too? Of course not, you buy in bulk, you get a discount.

No I wouldn't look down on him. That is why those programs exist.

[The Jays]

You aren't getting punished for having your own business, you simply have an additional operating cost. Do you think liquor stores should have to pay the same amount as you pay for a shot at the bar too? Of course not, you buy in bulk, you get a discount.

No I wouldn't look down on him. That is why those programs exist.

So, because I'm a sole proprietor, because I have the independent spirit and the business acumen to know that I want to keep my overhead low by having one employee (me), I get to pay an "additional" operating cost because I don't have a group of people just like me ready to buy some plans in bulk. What you're basically saying is it would be better if I was part of a union (socialist) rather than for me to be an independent entrepreneur, because then I'd get a better plan.

If you wouldn't look down on that guy, why does it bother you that you pay taxes for it? Do you believe that everyone on welfare wants to be on it, that the majority of people on it have made poor choices and thus suck on the tits of the government? Why isn't it easier to believe that bad shit has happened to them in their lives that they had no control over and that they need those programs?

[Suspect Chin]

So, because I'm a sole proprietor, because I have the independent spirit and the business acumen to know that I want to keep my overhead low by having one employee (me), I get to pay an "additional" operating cost because I don't have a group of people just like me ready to buy some plans in bulk. What you're basically saying is it would be better if I was part of a union (socialist) rather than for me to be an independent entrepreneur, because then I'd get a better plan.

If you wouldn't look down on that guy, why does it bother you that you pay taxes for it? Do you believe that everyone on welfare wants to be on it, that the majority of people on it have made poor choices and thus suck on the tits of the government? Why isn't it easier to believe that bad shit has happened to them in their lives that they had no control over and that they need those programs?

You are also the sole person that gets to enjoy the profits of that business if it does well. If the government provided you with health care, your taxes would likely be so high that you might not even be able to keep the business afloat.

The corporation that buys insurance in bulk is spending money that might have gone into your pocket if they didn't have to use it for health care. They are doing us a favor by buying it in bulk because it saves us money.

I said before that bad shit happens to good people and that is fundamentally why these programs exist. There is a difference however between the homeowner who took a bad mortgage and the hardworking individual who got a terrible disease.

[A.J.]

Do what you want, I'll stay out of it as long as you don't ask me to pay for it.

:clap:

[underdog]

I think people become more conservative because as they get older their salary and net worth increases. It is easy to be liberal when you are young because you are the one reaping the benefits of the entitlement system. Once you get older and start being the one paying for the entitlement system, it becomes a lot more difficult to part with your earnings.

As my salary has increased, I've become more liberal.

I no longer need every single penny and want to help people out who didn't have the chances I did when I was growing up. And I want to help feed a system to be there to help me in case something ever happens to me in the future.

[The Jays]

You are also the sole person that gets to enjoy the profits of that business if it does well. If the government provided you with health care, your taxes would likely be so high that you might not even be able to keep the business afloat.

The corporation that buys insurance in bulk is spending money that might have gone into your pocket if they didn't have to use it for health care. They are doing us a favor by buying it in bulk because it saves us money.

I said before that bad shit happens to good people and that is fundamentally why these programs exist. There is a difference however between the homeowner who took a bad mortgage and the hardworking individual who got a terrible disease.

Well, fortunately for you, we're not bailing out homeowners, but we do get to bail out the banks who offered these shitty mortgages, so, yay!!! America Baby!

How does it save us money for corporations to buy health care plans in bulk? Again, if I'm a freelancer, I get fucked in the ass on health insurance, but big business gets a discount because they buy in bulk? Do you not see that isn't fair? Who cares if I'm keeping all the profits, all the profits I make are significantly lower than the profits of a corporation.

[Ritalin]

I think Chris is stuck in a corner on this Freelancer/health insurance debate. Adequate health insurance shouldn't be something to be negotiated for, it's something that should be available - affordably - for anyone who wants it. To argue that the free market works because corporations can negotiate a lower rate by insuring in bulk is restricting the flow of labor and suppressing the enterpenurial and creative class. I'm a photographer and there just aren't any legimate full time corporate jobs in my field. It's freelance by nature. The marketplace literally creates roadblocks for my occupation, at least as far as health care for me and my family are concerned. That's not the invisible hand of the marketplace, that's a system rigged for the benefit of anyone who profits from healthcare. I'm not saying that I've heard the right solution yet, but I know that the system as it stands is broken.

[Suspect Chin]

I think Chris is stuck in a corner on this Freelancer/health insurance debate. Adequate health insurance shouldn't be something to be negotiated for, it's something that should be available - affordably - for anyone who wants it. To argue that the free market works because corporations can negotiate a lower rate by insuring in bulk is restricting the flow of labor and suppressing the enterpenurial and creative class. I'm a photographer and there just aren't any legimate full time corporate jobs in my field. It's freelance by nature. The marketplace literally creates roadblocks for my occupation, at least as far as health care for me and my family are concerned. That's not the invisible hand of the marketplace, that's a system rigged for the benefit of anyone who profits from healthcare. I'm not saying that I've heard the right solution yet, but I know that the system as it stands is broken.

The corporation generally pays a much larger portion of the insurance premium so that the employee doesn't have to. So the overall cost of the insurance is probably more similar to a free lancer than you think. I don't have specific numbers here but I know health insurance for employees is very expensive for companies too.

But you also don't have paid vacation, a company car, 401k match, or any of the other perks of working for a corporation. My point is just that as a free lancer, the cost of health care is something that has to be worked into the budget.

Why should an individual get a break on health care vs. a corporation that is buying the product in bulk? The company could just give you the cash they are spending toward your insurance, but then you would lose group discount.

[The Jays]

You seem favor the corporation over the individual, because they are bigger and can get the health care companies more money thus they can give the corporation that bulk discount you talk about. It seems sort of anti-conservative to suggest that the individual needs to struggle while the corporation gets a break.

[Suspect Chin]

You seem favor the corporation over the individual, because they are bigger and can get the health care companies more money thus they can give the corporation that bulk discount you talk about. It seems sort of anti-conservative to suggest that the individual needs to struggle while the corporation gets a break.

The corporation isn't getting a break. It is using its size to pass along a break to the individual. Again, the corporation could just give you the cash it spends towards your insurance and leave you to buy insurance on your own, but then you would lose the group discount. This is a case of the corporation helping the individual just the same way it helps you by giving you vacation time, sick days, etc.

[The Jays]

What I saying is you shouldn't have to be a cog in the machine just to get affordable health care. That seems kinda socialist to me. I'd rather have the freedom to be my own boss, keep a low overhead, and I shouldn't be punished for that by having to pay more than the massive corporation.

[Suspect Chin]

What I saying is you shouldn't have to be a cog in the machine just to get affordable health care. That seems kinda socialist to me. I'd rather have the freedom to be my own boss, keep a low overhead, and I shouldn't be punished for that by having to pay more than the massive corporation.

Its not a punishment it is just economics. You also can't go to the farm and buy your eggs 1000 cartons at a time. But your grocer can, and he passes his savings along to you.

Here is an interesting article:
http://sbinformation.about.com/od/benefits/a/healthinsurance.htm

It says that small companies pay about 18% more than larger companies for health insurance. This is likely the group discount we've been discussing. It suggests at the end of the article to group up with other small businesses to buy the insurance in bulk.

[beachbum]

The corporation generally pays a much larger portion of the insurance premium so that the employee doesn't have to. So the overall cost of the insurance is probably more similar to a free lancer than you think. I don't have specific numbers here but I know health insurance for employees is very expensive for companies too.




Sooorrrry,Sooo Soooorrry.When I worked for a corporation they paid for my health insurance 100%.i had the option,which i took,of adding my wife at 100% cost to me.I paid like $128 per month to add her to my plan.I currently pay way more than that on my policy.(I now own my own business and pay for health insurance out of pocket.)

[Suspect Chin]

Sooorrrry,Sooo Soooorrry.When I worked for a corporation they paid for my health insurance 100%.i had the option,which i took,of adding my wife at 100% cost to me.I paid like $128 per month to add her to my plan.I currently pay way more than that on my policy.(I now own my own business and pay for health insurance out of pocket.)

Can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not.

Sounds like the corporation you worked for had a unconventional insurance plan but if you think about most companies, $128 a month for a husband and wife is probably pretty average.

I think we've established that a small business is going to pay more because the large corporation isn't there to defray most of the cost and contribute their group discount.

[The Jays]

The point you're avoiding is why does it have to be that I need to be part of a group of people like me in order to get affordable health insurance? Why can't I just be me, and get a plan which cover my doctor visits, my medicine? I could understand I might pay a little bit more, but that ain't the case. I told you about my $500 a month to keep the insurance I had at my old job. And that's for a shitty fucking plan.

Again, it seems kinda socialist that I have to be a cog in a machine in order for me to get decent health care.

And according to you, it's going to be hard for people to get those cog jobs because they need a college education, but I guess that's going to be OK because everyone who is poor can just get into Columbia and get a bunch of free money as long as their parents work shitty paying jobs. I feel bad for the middle class people, they're gonna have to pay the full amount for a community college.

[Suspect Chin]

The point you keep missing is that the cost of health care is very nearly the same for everyone. Its just that in a corporation, they pay for it for you as a benefit. As an individual, you pay for it directly.

It is no different than any other benefit a corporation provides. I don't hear you complaining that your neighbor has a company car, company cell phone, 401k match, etc.

You are complaining about this because it hits so close to home and you think health care should be an entitlement. The constitution doesn't say "life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, and free healthcare."

[angrymissy]

Can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not.

Sounds like the corporation you worked for had a unconventional insurance plan but if you think about most companies, $128 a month for a husband and wife is probably pretty average.

I think we've established that a small business is going to pay more because the large corporation isn't there to defray most of the cost and contribute their group discount.

I work for a Fortune 500 company. We are gigantic.

They actually show you how much they pay towards all of your benefits.

If I had to pay for insurance for myself and my spouse, even at their group rate, it would cost me $1,110/month. To get the same plan on my own would likely cost over $2k a month.

As I've made more money and gotten older, I've moved more towards the left. My family income is nearing the top tax bracket. I don't live for money.

[Suspect Chin]

I work for a Fortune 500 company. We are gigantic.

They actually show you how much they pay towards all of your benefits.

If I had to pay for insurance for myself and my spouse, even at their group rate, it would cost me $1,110/month.

As I've made more money and gotten older, I've moved more towards the left. My family income is nearing the top tax bracket. I don't live for money.

How do you get your health insurance then if you don't pay the $1110 through your company, if I may ask.

[angrymissy]

The point you keep missing is that the cost of health care is very nearly the same for everyone. Its just that in a corporation, they pay for it for you as a benefit. As an individual, you pay for it directly.

It is no different than any other benefit a corporation provides. I don't hear you complaining that your neighbor has a company car, company cell phone, 401k match, etc.

You are complaining about this because it hits so close to home and you think health care should be an entitlement. The constitution doesn't say "life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, and free healthcare."

Life is kind of hard to keep if you're dying of a disease and have no healthcare, just sayin.

And no, it's not the same. Corporations get a group discount that you cannot get as an individual. And god forbid you have a lapse in insurance... then you can't get insured by anyone.

[angrymissy]

How do you get your health insurance then if you don't pay the $1110 through your company, if I may ask.

I don't understand your question.

The $1100 is what my company pays the insurance company to insure me. I'm insured through my employer.

If I was not insured through my employer and had to get a plan on my own, I'd have to buy a personal plan that would not allow the group discount my employer gets.

I looked into that years ago when I was temping and had no insurance and it was $2k/mo for a high deductible plan. Middle income families see that, can't afford it, go without, then end up being bankrupted if a major health issue comes along.

[Suspect Chin]

Life is kind of hard to keep if you're dying of a disease and have no healthcare, just sayin.

And no, it's not the same. Corporations get a group discount that you cannot get as an individual. And god forbid you have a lapse in insurance... then you can't get insured by anyone.

I said many many times that corporations get a group discount. The discount is about 18% according to the article I quoted earlier.

The company pays a large portion of the premium. That is the benefit of buying in bulk and a perk of working for the company.

[Suspect Chin]

I don't understand your question.

The $1100 is what my company pays the insurance company to insure me. I'm insured through my employer.

If I was not insured through my employer and had to get a plan on my own, I'd have to buy a personal plan that would not allow the group discount my employer gets.

I looked into that years ago when I was temping and had no insurance and it was $2k/mo for a high deductible plan.

I thought you were saying that you still had to pay $1100 just to get the company provided insurance. The fact that your company pays so much is a huge benefit of working for the company.

How could anyone expect an individual policy to be as cheap as what a company can get by buying in bulk?

[angrymissy]

I thought you were saying that you still had to pay $1100 just to get the company provided insurance. The fact that your company pays so much is a huge benefit of working for the company.

How could anyone expect an individual policy to be as cheap as what a company can get by buying in bulk?

That is exactly the problem. Insurance is completely unaffordable if you are not lucky enough to have an employer that covers a big chunk of your plan. There is a gap here in this country when it comes to healthcare. If you're not below the poverty line, but do not have a job that covers you for insurance, you are screwed. This gap affects mostly hard working, employed, underinsured working class people.

When I was temping, I was making around $22/hr, which is a decent middle class salary. I could not, however, afford to insure myself. Luckily, I did not encounter a major issue, but if I had, I would have been absolutely screwed.

[Suspect Chin]

This brings up the debate over whether insurance should be an entitlement or not.

Let's not forget that hospitals and insurance companies are businesses too; trying to increase revenue and profits. I know this hits closer to home when we are talking about people's health and lives, but this is a harsh reality. They have employees and investors that rely on them for their livelihoods. I don't think insurance companies or hospitals are reporting huge profits even with the high cost of health care.

[Ritalin]

Chris, you also assume that corporations will just continue to cover their employees health costs as if they too are not part of a larger marketplace.

Trust me: if your average HR department thinks they can replace a worker who currently enjoys employer supplemented health care with someone who doesn't, they're going to do it.

Or, here's one: what if you work for a corporation in a sector of the economy that's hard hit due to economic turndown. My wife works in the fashion industry, for a company that's instantly recognizable and until recently quite successful. But the retail industry is down the tubes right now, and there have been rounds and rounds of layoffs. My wife has been safe so far, but you never know.

We have two kids. If she were laid off, our income would decline drastically, while our health care costs would simultaneously skyrocket.

How does that square with your devotion to the "marketplace"? She works hard, has a regular job with a corporation. I work hard, at a career which is by it's nature a freelance job. Why should we be penalized for wanting affordable health care? I'm not asking for a hand out. I just want a fair shake.

The "marketplace" is broken.

[Suspect Chin]

If she gets laid off, her paid vacation days, 401k match, company car, and cozy office are gone too but you only focus on health care because you think you are entitled to it.

Health care is very expensive for a variety of reasons. If she gets laid off, the cost of health care didn't skyrocket instantly, she just lost the company's perk of paying for it.

The economic downturn sucks big time and people are losing jobs. But this doesn't mean we should start giving people something they never got for free or cheap before. Health care and insurance costs money just like any other good or service. It seems to be pretty accurately priced, as these industries aren't reporting ridiculous profits.

[Ritalin]

Chris, you're really hung up on the company car. We live in NYC, and she doesn't have a company car. She doesn't have a cozy office, she has a cubicle.

401K matches and paid vacation days are the kind of things you can live without when times demand. But you really can't reasonably live without health insurance when you have a family. It's apples and oranges.

I'm not entitled to health care. I'm entitled to reasonable access to affordable health care.

[Suspect Chin]

Chris, you're really hung up on the company car. We live in NYC, and she doesn't have a company car. She doesn't have a cozy office, she has a cubicle.

401K matches and paid vacation days are the kind of things you can live without when times demand. But you really can't reasonably live without health insurance when you have a family. It's apples and oranges.

I'm not entitled to health care. I'm entitled to reasonable access to affordable health care.

I just threw those out as other perks that will go away if she gets laid off. Obviously I don't know your personal situation.

How can the cost of health care go down without government intervention? If the government intervenes, taxes will skyrocket and it will turn into a huge cluster. I know it is an overused platitude, but look at the other countries that have gone to socialized health care. It doesn't seem to work.

[Serpico1103]

I think people become more conservative because as they get older their salary and net worth increases. It is easy to be liberal when you are young because you are the one reaping the benefits of the entitlement system. Once you get older and start being the one paying for the entitlement system, it becomes a lot more difficult to part with your earnings.

Here might be a different way to look at things.
This entitlement system benefits the rich more than the poor. Why? It keeps the system stable. Without it what would happen. Poor people would become desperate, and question the system. Who wants to keep stability? The rich.
If you think social security, welfare, food stamps, etc are given out of generousity, you are mistaken. They are given to keep the poor from coming to the realization that maybe this system isn't working for them.

Rich people complain about paying all the taxes to support this system. Well if this system falls, who has the most to lose? Someone living in a housing project with roaches, rats, elevators and hallways stinking of urine or a wealthy person used to all the comforts his money can buy?
Very little has been "given" to the underprivileged out of concern for them, it was given out of concern for the perpetuation of a stable society; unions, freeing slaves, equality for blacks, etc.

[beachbum]

Can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not.

Sounds like the corporation you worked for had a unconventional insurance plan but if you think about most companies, $128 a month for a husband and wife is probably pretty average.

I think we've established that a small business is going to pay more because the large corporation isn't there to defray most of the cost and contribute their group discount.

Not sarcasm that time.I currently pay about 700 a month for the 2 of us and a 10 yo.Insurance is like anything else(as you stated before)if you buy in bulk you get a better price.The people on the plan who don't have any health problems off set the cost of those who do.Being an individual you pay way more per person.

[The Jays]

The point you keep missing is that the cost of health care is very nearly the same for everyone. Its just that in a corporation, they pay for it for you as a benefit. As an individual, you pay for it directly.

It is no different than any other benefit a corporation provides. I don't hear you complaining that your neighbor has a company car, company cell phone, 401k match, etc.

You are complaining about this because it hits so close to home and you think health care should be an entitlement. The constitution doesn't say "life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, and free healthcare."

Listen I'm not complaining because I want the government to pay for my health care. You don't need to go and put words in my mouth. I'd love to pay for it myself, just like I can pay for my car insurance myself. I can't do it, because I am an architect, so it sucks because there's no big architecture corporation where I can get my health insurance along with the other "perks" like a company car, access to the health club, and tickets to the company box at Yankee Stadium. I'd love the chance to just afford health care.

But I can't. And for a lot of people worse off than me, it's the choice between having health care for their family, and putting food on the table for their kids. I think that sucks most of all. Now, because I think that sucks, it doesn't automatically mean "oh, I want the government to take care of me."

Let's try a simple question. Don't you think it sucks that health care costs so much? Forget all the entitlement crap, the high taxes, let's just answer, do you think it's cool that health care costs a lot?

[The Jays]

I mean, this for example, an abstract of an article from the American Journal of Medicine, clearly, a liberal periodical.

Background

Our 2001 study in 5 states found that medical problems contributed to at least 46.2% of all bankruptcies. Since then, health costs and the numbers of un- and underinsured have increased, and bankruptcy laws have tightened.

Methods

We surveyed a random national sample of 2314 bankruptcy filers in 2007, abstracted their court records, and interviewed 1032 of them. We designated bankruptcies as “medical” based on debtors' stated reasons for filing, income loss due to illness, and the magnitude of their medical debts.

Results

Using a conservative definition, 62.1% of all bankruptcies in 2007 were medical; 92% of these medical debtors had medical debts over $5000, or 10% of pretax family income. The rest met criteria for medical bankruptcy because they had lost significant income due to illness or mortgaged a home to pay medical bills. Most medical debtors were well educated, owned homes, and had middle-class occupations. Three quarters had health insurance. Using identical definitions in 2001 and 2007, the share of bankruptcies attributable to medical problems rose by 49.6%. In logistic regression analysis controlling for demographic factors, the odds that a bankruptcy had a medical cause was 2.38-fold higher in 2007 than in 2001.

Conclusions

Illness and medical bills contribute to a large and increasing share of US bankruptcies.

You've got three things going on here: 1) the cost of health coverage puts people in dire financial straits, 2) most are people who have education, have homes, work middle class jobs, and 3/4 of them have the "perk" of health coverage 3)some even took on that irresponsible mortgage in the hope that they could get some bills paid.

So, health insurance is a perk, you've got high insurance costs, high health care costs, and you've got an increasing number of people filing for bankruptcy because of medical bills.

I'm not saying that a government funded public health care plan is the answer, but it certainly does not seem that private health care is sustainable if it's keeping American families from contributing to society and the larger economy because they have to scratch and claw their ways out of a deep pit of debt caused by the high cost of health care.

[The Jays]

This brings up the debate over whether insurance should be an entitlement or not.

Let's not forget that hospitals and insurance companies are businesses too; trying to increase revenue and profits. I know this hits closer to home when we are talking about people's health and lives, but this is a harsh reality. They have employees and investors that rely on them for their livelihoods. I don't think insurance companies or hospitals are reporting huge profits even with the high cost of health care.

No, it actually doesn't bring up that debate at all. It brings up the debate on how to deal with the fact that health insurance is totally unaffordable unless you are lucky enough to work for a company that pays the exorbitant fees, or are part of a union that gets a company to pay for their plans as part of the contract.

It's not that people are saying "well, health care is broken, let's scrap the system and go national on this." No, it's "health care is broken, let's fix it. What are some solutions?"

I mean, we have people going bankrupt, people who have insurance and still can't pay the fees. To paraphrase Senator Bernie Sanders, we pay 3 to 1 the costs of health care compared to other developed nations, and yet we have 46 million not insured, we have others who are underinsured with high deductibles and high co payments, we have GM spending more on health care than on steel, and small business owners have to put more and more of their money towards paying for health insurance rather than growing their businesses. The discounts afforded to the corporations don't mean dick in the long run, because the key is that health care costs are ridiculously high.

I understand that people think is is a matter for the free market, but you have one market choking out the rest of the markets from growth, and that, in itself, is dangerous to our economy. And it's like we're such pussies when it comes to even the hint of government trying to fix things, because we start thinking "socialism." But how are we going to fix health care? Why are we ending the debate with "well, the insurance companies are businesses, so if we just let them go on fucking us over, eventually they will fix themselves." That's like such a cop out.

You say you think the costs are accurately priced, well, if that's the case, then the whole country is just fucked then. We shouldn't settle for that. Health care is pretty important, and if we don't want to turn it into an entitlement, let's make it affordable. Do we need more doctors? More computers? Better record keeping systems? Faster ways to diagnose and treat problems? Better nutrition and health education? Let's get the costs down. We can put a man on the moon, we can split an atom, we can map the human genome, but we can't get health care costs to a reasonable level?

[boosterp]

I just threw those out as other perks that will go away if she gets laid off. Obviously I don't know your personal situation.

How can the cost of health care go down without government intervention? If the government intervenes, taxes will skyrocket and it will turn into a huge cluster. I know it is an overused platitude, but look at the other countries that have gone to socialized health care. It doesn't seem to work.

If you want an example of how costly socialized medicine costs look at our VA health care system budget for a minority of the people here in the US, look how expensive your city's (or county) health care system and why California for example was closing hospitals.

The uninsured are a big part of why our private insurance remains high. I spent 17 years in the medical field and seen how private hospitals work. The charity cases, negotiated rates, Medicare and Medicate help to drive up private insurance rates.

On topic: I grew up in a conservative family but I am more centrist/progressive conservative. Take religion out of politics, more state's rights, restore free choice on issues like abortion, fiscal and political conservatism. Also take out paid politics like the lobbyist, pork spending, and pay raises especially during deficit years.

[Syd]

I just threw those out as other perks that will go away if she gets laid off. Obviously I don't know your personal situation.

How can the cost of health care go down without government intervention? If the government intervenes, taxes will skyrocket and it will turn into a huge cluster. I know it is an overused platitude, but look at the other countries that have gone to socialized health care. It doesn't seem to work.

We already pay higher per capita in public medical spending than most other countries. Our preventable mortality rates are by far the worst in the first world and don't look too favorably against third world countries.

Beyond that as it stands now the number of uninsured or underinsured people put you and everyone you know at risk for communicable diseases. Things like the flu kill more people a year than terrorists do but people don't clamor at trying to get increased flu vaccinations to develop a herd immunity.

And why, you might ask? Insurance companies pay more than you can dream of to make sure that the public thinks it is in the best interest for companies to profit off of their health. Denying claims or forcing ineffective drugs to be used all to save a dime is the methodology of the modern HMO. Anyway, for more facts about healthcare that haven't been paid for by revenue earned off of letting Americans needlessly die to lack of healthcare:

New study: US ranks last among other industrialized nations on preventable deaths

101,000 Fewer Americans Would Die Annually If the U.S. Improved Its Preventable Death Rate to That of the Three Top Performing Nations

http://www.lshtm.ac.uk/news/2008/usdeaths.html

[El Mudo]

I've moved more to "libertarian"...I don't identify with the blowhards on either side, and I just don't care any longer what other people do with their time/money.

Do all the drugs you want...marry whomever you please...not my problem.

[Serpico1103]

I just threw those out as other perks that will go away if she gets laid off. Obviously I don't know your personal situation.

How can the cost of health care go down without government intervention? If the government intervenes, taxes will skyrocket and it will turn into a huge cluster. I know it is an overused platitude, but look at the other countries that have gone to socialized health care. It doesn't seem to work.

By other countries, do you mean every other wealthy country in the world?
Do you mean the other 36 countries ranked ahead of us in providing health care?

Yes, I know people come here for rare and new procedures. But, that does not represent the bulk of the need in the system.
Our system is like having the best Porsche mechanics in the world, but most people can only afford to drive Hyundais. Sure, if you need a very specialized operation done and can afford it, come to the US. If you need everyday, preventive medicine, go to the other industrialized nations.

Most importantly, this is not about entitlement. A healthy workforce is a productive workforce. The better the health-care system, the more we can produce. Everything is about protecting and making the system more efficient. EVERYTHING.

[The Jays]

I think it's kinda fucked up to consider health care a "perk". A company car is a perk, tickets to the movies is a perk, free Starbucks coffee is a perk. Health care is necessary. People need to see doctors and dentists every 6 months. But just because they need it doesn't mean the automatic solution is to go national on health care, though that could be a solution that we have yet to try. The problem is known, the system is broken, but we're not willing to try anything. Costs need to come down, health insurance has to come down.

[Syd]

I think it's kinda fucked up to consider health care a "perk". A company car is a perk, tickets to the movies is a perk, free Starbucks coffee is a perk. Health care is necessary. People need to see doctors and dentists every 6 months. But just because they need it doesn't mean the automatic solution is to go national on health care, though that could be a solution that we have yet to try. The problem is known, the system is broken, but we're not willing to try anything. Costs need to come down, health insurance has to come down.

Costs can go down but only by dropping coverage for people because the corporations responsibility is to its shareholders to deliver a profit. There's no solution except non-profit, socialized healthcare because the health of a nation contradicts the requirements of a corporation.

The anomaly of health care spending in the United States is the very fact that while the U.S. spends the most on health care – by orders of magnitude – than it’s peers among the developed nations, it continues to offer the least comprehensive coverage to its citizens. Not only does the U.S. spend significantly more per capita on health care – with total health care expenditures reaching $2 trillion in 2005 or $6,700 per person[2] – the growth of healthcare spending has also been rising at a much faster pace than most other developed countries.[3] In 2005, the U.S. was estimated to have devoted 16 percent of its GDP to health care, a number that is projected to rise to 20 percent by 2015 when health care spending will, according to projections, account for $4 trillion.[4] Cross national comparisons of health care spending by the OECD (Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development) in 2003[5] and 2004[6] indicate that the U.S. far exceeds its competitors in per capita spending on health care as well as share of GDP devoted to health care spending (Figures 1 & 2).

http://texasimpact.org/spending%20more

http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/2474/8777387920266349491o.jpg

[Furtherman]

As You've Grown Older...

I've grown wiser.

What would you like to know?

[ralphbxny]

Much like my life I am all over the place and that has not changed!!