Supreme Court overturns Sotomayor - justice for firefighters

[Dude!]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/06/29/AR2009062901608_pf.html

[Furtherman]

Let's not make this a Supreme Court vs. Sotomayor solo event.

The Supreme Court overturned a decision by the Second US Circuit Court of Appeals, which has, I believe, around 20 members.

It was THEIR decision they overturned.




But will the media present it that way? Doubtful.

[foodcourtdruide]

Let's not make this a Supreme Court vs. Sotomayor solo event.

The Supreme Court overturned a decision by the Second US Circuit Court of Appeals, which has, I believe, around 20 members.

It was THEIR decision they overturned.




But will the media present it that way? Doubtful.

The media will be responsible. It's not like FOXNews will have a photo on the cover of their website with a picture of Sotomayor looking angry next to a picture of the firefighters with their children..... oh wait....

[Furtherman]

The media will be responsible. It's not like FOXNews will have a photo on the cover of their website with a picture of Sotomayor looking angry next to a picture of the firefighters with their children..... oh wait....

Oh, the fact that FOXNews will distort this goes without saying, however, I don't see the other networks highlighting the fact either, as it makes a better story of Sotomayor getting knocked down by the people she might be have as co-workers.

[foodcourtdruide]

Oh, the fact that FOXNews will distort this goes without saying, however, I don't see the other networks highlighting the fact either, as it makes a better story of Sotomayor getting knocked down by the people she might be have as co-workers.

It's just such a non-story. Let me predict the outcome of this:

- The right-wing talk show hosts will scream about this being the biggest thing ever.

- Left-leaning blogs will point out that this has happened several times before.

- The right will ignore it.

[LordJezo]

This is a sad day for many seeing that the court as it exists now can be fair and work to help the citizens of this country, doing what is right, not what a quota or the left demands.

Once the new appointment is made all of that is finished and days like today will only be remembered in text books as the court of Obama will simply serve his will and turn this country into something unlike anything seen before.

At least we have today thought.

[Dude!]

This is a sad day for many seeing that the court as it exists now can be fair and work to help the citizens of this country, doing what is right, not what a quota or the left demands.

Once the new appointment is made all of that is finished and days like today will only be remembered in text books as the court of Obama will simply serve his will and turn this country into something unlike anything seen before.

At least we have today thought.

that's not true
Sotomayor replaces Souter
who voted with the minority

her vote will change nothing

[Furtherman]

This is a sad day for many seeing that the court as it exists now can be fair and work to help the citizens of this country, doing what is right, not what a quota or the left demands.

Once the new appointment is made all of that is finished and days like today will only be remembered in text books as the court of Obama will simply serve his will and turn this country into something unlike anything seen before.

At least we have today thought.

So it's a sad day for the uneducated, naive ignorants?

Sorry. Keep your chin up.

[HBox]

that's not true
Sotomayor replaces Souter
who voted with the minority

her vote will change nothing

Your logic does nothing to penetrate his thick shield of craziness.

[TheMojoPin]

This is a sad day for many seeing that the court as it exists now can be fair and work to help the citizens of this country, doing what is right, not what a quota or the left demands.

And of course what is "right" for your fake character is maintaing the status quo of the power structure based on racial inequality.

[Ritalin]

And of course what is "right" for your fake character is maintaing the status quo of the power structure based on racial inequality.

Right? It's a work, right?

[TheMojoPin]

Right? It's a work, right?

Jezo? Of course.

[LordJezo]

And of course what is "right" for your fake character is maintaing the status quo of the power structure based on racial inequality.

It really is funny how you say that anyone who thinks in a non Liberal fashion is a fake board character. The left is so intolerant of conservatism that they feel that anyone who leans that way must be a parody of a person.

[TheMojoPin]

It really is funny how you say that anyone who thinks in a non Liberal fashion is a fake board character. The left is so intolerant of conservatism that they feel that anyone who leans that way must be a parody of a person.

And it's funny how you think your fake embracing of far Right rhetoric is indicative of most conservatives and Republicans. You're not "leaning" with this crap.

[JimBeam]

I agree that it's not just a victory over Sotomayor but it is a victory over her faulty logic.

What distresses me about the vote was that it was 5-4. That means 4 people, on ideological lines, still have their heads in their asses.

Reading Ginsburg's quote, which I don't have in front of me, regarding the dissent made me want to vomit.

What world do we live in where people, regardless of race, can take tests, pass them and not reap th rewards that come with them ?

So nobody passes until everybody does ?

Why do we even give out grades in school anymore ?

Anybody who's reading a a 3rd grade level in 3rd grade shouldn't be promoted until those reading at a 1st grade level are there.

As far as the fire department itself shouldn't any minority that actually passed the exam previously be stripped of their titles because obviously they shouldn't have passed it ?

[Furtherman]

I agree that it's not just a victory over Sotomayor but it is a victory over her faulty logic.

And here is exactly what I mentioned in the first response to this thread.

Doesn't take long!

[JimBeam]

Actually I mean it wasn't a victory over her but it did show that her opinion, as well as anybody that sided with her, was wrong.

[TheMojoPin]

I agree that it's not just a victory over Sotomayor but it is a victory over her faulty logic.

What distresses me about the vote was that it was 5-4. That means 4 people, on ideological lines, still have their heads in their asses.

Reading Ginsburg's quote, which I don't have in front of me, regarding the dissent made me want to vomit.

What world do we live in where people, regardless of race, can take tests, pass them and not reap th rewards that come with them ?

So nobody passes until everybody does ?

Why do we even give out grades in school anymore ?

Anybody who's reading a a 3rd grade level in 3rd grade shouldn't be promoted until those reading at a 1st grade level are there.

As far as the fire department itself shouldn't any minority that actually passed the exam previously be stripped of their titles because obviously they shouldn't have passed it ?

Attempting to level the playing field isn't going to be an easy or quick process, nor is it always going to be correct, but it is something that has to be done if we truly want to stand by the ideal that every American has at least an equal shot at success regardless of their race. Now I know that it seems hypocritical to say that and then push for affirmative action, but the system as a whole right now is skewed SO far in favor of the white supremacy power structure that it has to be forced at times in the other way just so we can even take steps to levelling the playing field. The key in this would be an examination of the test itself. Numerous studies have shown conclusively that standardized testing on basically every level favors middle and upper class whites based on the education and education experiences available to them that non-whites are often deprived of due to economic, social and residential restrictions hinged directly on segregation. If this test was fairly based only or primarily on these firefighters abilities as firefighters then the case didn't have any legs to stand on from the getgo. If the test was a typical standardized test and a significant numer of the results were based on non-firefighting criteria, then there's a case.

I've posted this before here, but it does a much better job of spelling out why affirmative action is necessary for the forseeable future to attempt to make this country truly equal down the line:

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Affirmative action is by no means a perfect solution, but when the power strcuture is so dramatically skewed and fucked up as it is now and has been in America that it is a necessary process by which to attempt to make our society live up to its own hype. It's the height of hypocrisy to say that affirmative action is similar to, equivalent to or worse than the racial divide that has perpetuated non-whites in this country largely as "surplus people" from day one. Affirmative action doesn't begin to resemble a minutia of the racial imbalance that has kept white supremacy as the perceived norm for centuries. People talk about affirmative action like it's a danger that's going to flip the power balance in this country on its head and all of suddenly (OH NO!) brown people will be "in charge." We're so far from that being a reality it's not even funny. How about employment and business ownership and college admission and so on just end up reflective of, say, the percentage of blacks in this country? Is it really wrong to expect that 12-15% of the population is represented around 12-15% in these areas where possible? That's hardly a lofty goal to be shooting for, yet even just reaching that would be a massive triumph for the idea of American equality.

[foodcourtdruide]

Actually I mean it wasn't a victory over her but it did show that her opinion, as well as anybody that sided with her, was wrong.

But what does that mean? Is it indicative of a larger, "this is how liberals think" conspiracy theory that Jezo is referring to? Or was it just one instance where one school of thought was more represented than another?

There was no "got'cha" here. It was just our system working the way it should.

[LordJezo]

Affirmative action [...] is a necessary.

Wow, that is terrible. Supporting quotas is supporting racism. That's the left for you. People who can't succeed on their own need to be coddled. White guilt has become so bad in this country that those in power now feel bad for the poor underprivileged minorities who must be taken care of and helped like children. Since they can't do it on their own or take responsibility for their own actions big government must come in and hold their hands.

Bah.

[foodcourtdruide]

Attempting to level the playing field isn't going to be an easy or quick process, nor is it always going to be correct, but it is something that has to be done if we truly want to stand by the ideal that every American has at least an equal shot at success regardless of their race. Now I know that it seems hypocritical to say that and then push for affirmative action, but the system as a whole right now is skewed SO far in favor of the white supremacy power structure that it has to be forced at times in the other way just so we can even take steps to levelling the playing field. The key in this would be an examination of the test itself. Numerous studies have shown conclusively that standardized testing on basically every level favors middle and upper class whites based on the education and education experiences available to them that non-whites are often deprived of due to economic, social and residential restrictions hinged directly on segregation. If this test was fairly based only or primarily on these firefighters abilities as firefighters then the case didn't have any legs to stand on from the getgo. If the test was a typical standardized test and a significant numer of the results were based on non-firefighting criteria, then there's a case.

I've posted this before here, but it does a much better job of spelling out why affirmative action is necessary for the forseeable future to attempt to make this country truly equal down the line:

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/B4ZdR1alqmM&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/B4ZdR1alqmM&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Affirmative action is by no means a perfect solution, but when the power strcuture is so dramatically skewed and fucked up as it is now and has been in America that it is a necessary process by which to attempt to make our society live up to its own hype.

Mojo, this was a brilliant post. This even-handedness is what is missing in today's political landscape and why I think the cable news/talk radio structure ultimately does great harm to this country. The answer is not black and white. Is there an uneven "playing field" in this country? Yes, absolutely. Is affirmative action the solution to this problem (if you even consider it a problem)? Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. Sometimes it is for one decade, then no longer applies. It's not so black and white and fueling this discussion with anger and hatred, on either side, is completely pointless and will ultimately lead us no where.

[TheMojoPin]

Mojo, this was a brilliant post. This even-handedness is what is missing in today's political landscape and why I think the cable news/talk radio structure ultimately does great harm to this country. The answer is not black and white. Is there an uneven "playing field" in this country? Yes, absolutely. Is affirmative action the solution to this problem (if you even consider it a problem)? Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. Sometimes it is for one decade, then no longer applies. It's not so black and white and fueling this discussion with anger and hatred, on either side, is completely pointless and will ultimately lead us no where.

Exactly. Affirmative action is neither the magic solution to all this nor is it some crippling problem that is going to destroy America. Balancing America racially after so many centuries of it being so dramatically and willfully one-sided is going to be a prolonged, imperfect process. Affirmative action is not this across the board plan to just let all non-whites get and have whatever they want. It's very much, at its best, a case by case process that makes advances where it can and where it needs to.

[TheMojoPin]

Wow, that is terrible. Supporting quotas is supporting racism. That's the left for you. People who can't succeed on their own need to be coddled. White guilt has become so bad in this country that those in power now feel bad for the poor underprivileged minorities who must be taken care of and helped like children. Since they can't do it on their own or take responsibility for their own actions big government must come in and hold their hands.

Bah.

So you think that all cycles of poverty and segregation are completely the fault of the people who are poor and/or being segregated?

[LordJezo]

So you think that all cycles of poverty and segregation are completely the fault of the people who are poor and/or being segregated?

Personal responsibility. Segregation ended a long time ago. If they just stopped killing each other, dealing dope, and mugging everyone on the streets, got their acts together, and did something productive all their issues would be solved. Instead none of that is done and they expect the government to come in, give them their welfare checks, and now with what you are saying, jobs they are not qualified for simply because they are not white.

[foodcourtdruide]

So you think that all cycles of poverty and segregation are completely the fault of the people who are poor and/or being segregated?

I think he denies that segregation really exists. This is something I run into a lot with Rand followers, they don't believe the amount of obstacles in any given groups path should effect the total number of people from that group that ultimately succeed.

I think it's common sense. If you have 2 groups of 100 people and 1 group has to run an obstacle course with hurdles, rope climbing, mud, etc and the other group just has hurdles, more people from the group with the easier path will ultimately succeed.

[foodcourtdruide]

Personal responsibility. Segregation ended a long time ago. If they just stopped killing each other, dealing dope, and mugging everyone on the streets, got their acts together, and did something productive all their issues would be solved. Instead none of that is done and they expect the government to come in, give them their welfare checks, and now with what you are saying, jobs they are not qualified for simply because they are not white.

Hey, I nailed it! He doesn't believe that there's really racism. Which is odd, since is post is laced with racism, lol.

[TheMojoPin]

I think he denies that segregation really exists. This is something I run into a lot with Rand followers, they don't believe the amount of obstacles in any given groups path should effect the total number of people from that group that ultimately succeed.

I think it's common sense. If you have 2 groups of 100 people and 1 group has to run an obstacle course with hurdles, rope climbing, mud, etc and the other group just has hurdles, more people from the group with the easier path will ultimately succeed.

He just denied that it still exists in the post above yours. I'm not going to dignify his trolling posts with any more responses.

Excellent analogy. It's the myth of the level playing field that people latch onto because it's the only way to explain the blatant inequality between not only the races in this country, but also the poor and the rich. The racial divide is the key reason you'll never see a truly populist shift in this country because at the end of the day the white supremacy power structure continually manages to convince poor whites that they have more in common with rich whites than poor blacks. Same applies to the middle class. More often than not people will side with the system and rhetoric perpetuated by the elite just because it's "normal"/"white" as opposed to siding with or being sympathetic to people in similar or worse economic and social situations who are only different based on their race or nationality.

[foodcourtdruide]

He just denied that it still exists in the post above yours. I'm not going to dignify his trolling posts with any more responses.

Excellent analogy. It's the myth of the level playing field that people latch onto because it's the only way to explain the blatant inequality between not only the races in this country, but also the poor and the rich. The racial divide is the key reason you'll never see a truly populist shift in this country because at the end of the day the white supremacy power structure continually manages to convince poor whites that they have more in common with rich whites than poor blacks. Same applies to the middle class. More often than not people will side with the system and rhetoric perpetuated by the elite just because it's "normal"/"white" as opposed to siding with or being sympathetic to people in similar or worse economic and social situations who are only different based on their race or nationality.

I agree 100%. A lot of Obama's rhetoric was along these lines during the election and I was LOVING it.

[Furtherman]

If they just stopped killing each other, dealing dope, and mugging everyone on the streets, got their acts together, and did something productive all their issues would be solved.

Are you talking about whites?

Because you could be.

[TheMojoPin]

I agree 100%. A lot of Obama's rhetoric was along these lines during the election and I was LOVING it.

Eh, I was never optimistic about Obama being able to make many changes along these lines. He has to walk a careful tightrope where he can't be seen as "too black" or could be spun as "favoring blacks." For a lot of reasons I see Obama as president as actually being detrimental to the racial conflict in this country.

[JimBeam]

I don't see how you make things equal by punishing those that pass.

Actually weren't there ar few monorities that did pass ?

So aren't they being punished ?

Also one of the guys that passed the exam had a learning disability so he should get treated poorly because he happens to be white ?

The color of ones skin is more of a detriment to learning than a diagnosed disability ?

Listen if you wanna lower the score for passing based on some racial criteria then I donn't agree with that either but it at least doesn't ham those that pass the exams.

To make everybody else dumber isn't the way to go.

I still don't see how tests that ask you to read a paragraph and then answer the questions that follow it is in any way racist ?

The questions aren't " What is the proper number of horses in a polo match ? "

I also feel that while I'm sure that 90% of the job of a fireman is physical there is an importance to the 10% that is mental.

Should we allow people who are unable to make decisions on paper, that don't cost lives, to go into the field and make decisons that do impact lives ?

We aren't talking about manger jobs at Walmart.

[TheMojoPin]

I don't see how you make things equal by punishing those that pass.

Actually weren't there ar few monorities that did pass ?

So aren't they being punished ?

Also one of the guys that passed the exam had a learning disability so he should get treated poorly because he happens to be white ?

The color of ones skin is more of a detriment to learning than a diagnosed disability ?

Listen if you wanna lower the score for passing based on some racial criteria then I donn't agree with that either but it at least doesn't ham those that pass the exams.

To make everybody else dumber isn't the way to go.

I still don't see how tests that ask you to read a paragraph and then answer the questions that follow it is in any way racist ?

The questions aren't " What is the proper number of horses in a polo match ? "

I also feel that while I'm sure that 90% of the job of a fireman is physical there is an importance to the 10% that is mental.

Should we allow people who are unable to make decisions on paper, that don't cost lives, to go into the field and make decisons that do impact lives ?

We aren't talking about manger jobs at Walmart.

The key here is that we don't know what the testing entailed. I agree it could very easily be that these guys were getting the shaft. Like I said, affirmative action is not a perfect solution; there is no perfect solution along these lines.

And just because someone doesn't succeed on standardized tests doesn't mean that they're "dumb." Those tests are largely horseshit even for the people that ace them because they reflect so little on what most of us encounter in day-to-day professional situations.

[LordJezo]

Are you talking about whites?

Because you could be.

Sure could be, but I don't see many white people getting jobs simply because of skin color. It's because of qualification and education. I didn't sit around waiting for some government quota to sweep in and give me a job. I could have easily sat around and done nothing with myself and cried when I didn't get a hand out but instead I took some personal responsibility and did something with myself. No one should get a job because of their skin color. Doing so only promotes racism and anger. Employers should be free to hire the best person for the job. I'd feel much better about some firefighter trying to save people who was actually qualified over some guy who got the job because big government felt bad that too many white people were better than him and what he wanted to do. It's all white guilt.

[TheMojoPin]

Except that studies show that too many employers tend to NOT hire or promote the most qualified person if that person isn't white or even just has a "black-sounding" name. (http://www.experience.com/alumnus/article?channel_id=diversity&source_page=home&article_id=article_1216753458542) That happens at such a scale to make these affirmative action hirings and promotions you're flipping out over seem like a drop in the ocean.

The most ironic thing about white people flipping out over affirmative action being a "cheat" for non-whites is that the group that by FAR has been most helped by affirmative action are white women. (http://aapf.org/focus/episodes/oct30.php)

As per the American Psychological Association: (http://www.apa.org/pubinfo/affirmaction.html)

Research indicates that affirmative action is still needed for two related reasons:

A series of laboratory studies have shown that almost all people have trouble detecting a pattern of discrimination unless they are faced with a flagrant example or have access to aggregated data documenting discrimination (Clayton and Crosby, 1992). This inability to make accurate judgments about discrimination from isolated incidents or comparisons is just as true for fair-minded and intelligent people as it is for others. Aggregated data are needed, therefore, if decision makers are to avoid or correct imbalances before they become flagrant. As shown in the table opposite, affirmative action is the only policy that requires an organization to collect and scrutinize aggregated data.

Data indicate that the biases against minorities and women that humans show in laboratory settings are reflected in real-world practices. According to the March 1995 report of the Federal Glass Ceiling Commission, for example, a large proportion of minorities and women are locked into low-wage, low-prestige, and dead-end jobs. Additional data suggest that these two groups have been disproportionately affected by current trends in workforce downsizing; many service-oriented industries, for example, disproportionately employ women and minorities and are likely to continue downsizing through the year 2002. It is likely that the minorities and women who work in these industries will be hardest hit (Murrell and Jones, 1995).

Psychologists and other social scientists have documented the many forms of racism that continue to mar marketplace employment decisions. Today these forms of racism are more evident in less overt yet widely held beliefs, attitudes, and prejudices than they were in the past. The subtle nature of these forms of racism suggests that passive EEO programs may not be sufficient to prevent discrimination.

Contemporary, more indirect, forms of prejudice can be divided into two types (Dovidio and Gaertner, 1995).

Aversive racism refers to negative feelings that lead to avoidance but are likely to be justified by some other reason. For example, a white male television station manager fails to hire a black applicant for the position of news anchor because he fears the audience will not respond to a black news anchor, but he justifies his decision by saying it was based on economics.

Symbolic racism refers to the development early in life of negative feelings people have toward members of other groups. Such feelings persist into adulthood and are associated with beliefs that are expressed symbolically rather than overtly (e.g., in opposition to busing).
Aversive racists typically do not evaluate Blacks more negatively than Whites, but they usually rate Blacks less favorably than Whites (Dovidio and Gaertner, 1995).

Discrimination is more likely to occur when Blacks compete for jobs or promotions with Whites who hold similar qualifications. The same holds true when highly qualified women compete with highly qualified men.

Aversive racism is more likely to affect minorities adversely when the latter attempt to advance to positions superior in rank to those held by Whites.
Affirmative action is essential for combating the effects of subtle forms of racism for a number of reasons (Dovidio and Gaertner, 1995).

Affirmative action is outcome-based; issues of intention are not central to the issue.

Affirmative action involves systematic monitoring of disparities in employment practices toward different groups.

When they are successful, affirmative action programs lead to the establishment of clear norms by organizations and institutions regarding the importance of full equality for everyone in the workplace.

Do you honestly believe this has all been "fixed" in the last 14 years?

As Justice Harry Blackmun noted, "In order to get beyond racism, we must first take account of race." A color-blind society cannot exist in the face of racism or prejudice that continues in the workplace.

[underdog]

Sure could be, but I don't see many white people getting jobs simply because of skin color.

Hahaha.

[TheMojoPin]

Hahaha.

I was too depressed to laugh.

Of course he doesn't see it. BECAUSE IT'S PERCEIVED AS NORMAL. Of course to him and others like him a white guy is usually more qualified and deserving of success. It's only when non-white people get positions that are "supposed" to go to white people that he sees race as being a reason or THE reason.

[JimBeam]

I'm partial to this kinda thing because it happened to me to a lesser extent.

Back in '96 when I took the exam for the Louisiana State Police it was a standardized exam but did have some " challenging " questions.

By that I mean there was the reading comprehension ( which did involve law enforcement ideas although none that you'd have to have studied for ) and word association but there as also a scene identification and memory recall section.

I aced the test and went on the pass all of the other requirements and a week before I was to have more oral interview, the last step before being accepted, we got a letter in the mail saying that due to a law suit that we were all required to take a new test.

Now I don't recall if it said in the letter itself that anybody who had already passed would not be penalized by the new test or if we were subtly told that but it was communicated in some way.

The new test was a complete waste of time. It was 600 questions of psychological nonsense.

One of those tests where they asked the same question several times and wanted to see if the answers jived.

A 10 year old could've passed the exam.

You know what happened to the guy,who happened to be black, that sued to get in ?

He passed the test and washed out of the academy in less than a week.

They recorded each and every thing he did so as not to look like they ran him off ue to the case.

It was a joke.

Incidentally he was 1 of only like 8 people to fail out ( one being another black female who had worked for several years as a State Police dispatcher but simply could not pass the firearms qualifications ).

Incidentally I believe that 4 other black males graduated with us although I'm not sure how they scored on the initial exam.

And Food, you act like a person like me reads from a manual published by Fox News. That's as ignorant as any presumed racism.

I make my decions based on what I believe is right and wrong by my own expereinces and knowledge. While I may at times, many times, agree ideologically with things in the conservative media don't ever think that I'm brainwashed and never dissent

Would it make sense if I said you get all your ideas from Bill Maher and Michael Moore ?

[TheMojoPin]

So you want that one instance and that one person to define this entire issue for you?

The vast majority of "affirmative action cases" have not "washed out" of their respective situations. Focusing on the inevitable relative few that do just creates a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Again, nobody is saying affirmative action is a perfect solution that isn't going to make mistakes. It's impossible to have anything along that kind of unrealistic criteria.

The big step that we need to move towards is tossing out standardized testing alotgether. It goes against our inherrent laziness, but it needs to be done.

[JimBeam]

I think that it trivialized something that should've had more impotance than just " Hey I wanna be a State Trooper too. "

Like it was town Little League.

[TheMojoPin]

I think that it trivialized something that should've had more impotance than just " Hey I wanna be a State Trooper too. "

Like it was town Little League.

I don't think it's trivial at all to ideally want to diversify our law enforcement as much as possible.

[foodcourtdruide]

I'm partial to this kinda thing because it happened to me to a lesser extent.

Back in '96 when I took the exam for the Louisiana State Police it was a standardized exam but did have some " challenging " questions.

By that I mean there was the reading comprehension ( which did involve law enforcement ideas although none that you'd have to have studied for ) and word association but there as also a scene identification and memory recall section.

I aced the test and went on the pass all of the other requirements and a week before I was to have more oral interview, the last step before being accepted, we got a letter in the mail saying that due to a law suit that we were all required to take a new test.

Now I don't recall if it said in the letter itself that anybody who had already passed would not be penalized by the new test or if we were subtly told that but it was communicated in some way.

The new test was a complete waste of time. It was 600 questions of psychological nonsense.

One of those tests where they asked the same question several times and wanted to see if the answers jived.

A 10 year old could've passed the exam.

You know what happened to the guy,who happened to be black, that sued to get in ?

He passed the test and washed out of the academy in less than a week.

They recorded each and every thing he did so as not to look like they ran him off ue to the case.

It was a joke.

Incidentally he was 1 of only like 8 people to fail out ( one being another black female who had worked for several years as a State Police dispatcher but simply could not pass the firearms qualifications ).

Incidentally I believe that 4 other black males graduated with us although I'm not sure how they scored on the initial exam.

And Food, you act like a person like me reads from a manual published by Fox News. That's as ignorant as any presumed racism.

I make my decions based on what I believe is right and wrong by my own expereinces and knowledge. While I may at times, many times, agree ideologically with things in the conservative media don't ever think that I'm brainwashed and never dissent

Would it make sense if I said you get all your ideas from Bill Maher and Michael Moore ?

Huh? I don't think that about you at all. This is the first time I've seen you posting here. I love when people have dissenting viewpoints and I don't doubt the personal experience you described above. I agree that there are holes in affirmative action.

I believe there ARE people who read from a manual published by Fox News as you described, but I honestly have no idea if you are one of them or not.

[JimBeam]

But the role of law enforcement , and the fire department inthe New Haven case, is to save lives and prevent crimes, not to be some social experiment to make people feel good about themselves.

You act like the people who make standardized tests are some evil white cabal somewhere.

More than likely they are liberal thinking, education people who create the test to screen those that should and should not advance.

They can't write a test that says " horse is to saddle as bike is to _____ " and think that this is gonna trick the minorities.

[TheMojoPin]

But the role of law enforcement , and the fire department inthe New Haven case, is to save lives and prevent crimes, not to be some social experiment to make people feel good about themselves.

But the system worked. He didn't make it through the training. It's not like the old test was some kind of guarenteed catch-all to avoid that since people no doubt passed that and eventually washed out as well. By and large affirmative aciton is not ramming unqualified people into positions they have no business being in.

You act like the people who make standardized tests are some evil white cabal somewhere.

More than likely they are liberal thinking, education people who create the test to screen those that should and should not advance.

They can't write a test that says " horse is to saddle as bike is to _____ " and think that this is gonna trick the minorities.

I don't think they're evil: they just have an impossible expectation. You can't make truly "standardized" tests that theoretically account for the very diverse social and educational differences in this country. It's impossible to creat a national test that can properly determine who is qualified for specific jobs or positions or learning tracts or schools or whatever along those lines.

It's laziness when you get right down to it. People want something simple they can throw at anyone without having to truly interview and examine or test people on a largely case-by-case basis to TRULY determine qualification.

[boosterp]

It really is funny how you say that anyone who thinks in a non Liberal fashion is a fake board character. The left is so intolerant of conservatism that they feel that anyone who leans that way must be a parody of a person.

Please quit referring to yourself in a conservative manner. You are nothing more than a talk radio regurgitating neo-con who never supports his argument with citations.

But what does that mean? Is it indicative of a larger, "this is how liberals think" conspiracy theory that Jezo is referring to? Or was it just one instance where one school of thought was more represented than another?

There was no "got'cha" here. It was just our system working the way it should.

That should be the point of the story.

Personal responsibility. Segregation ended a long time ago. If they just stopped killing each other, dealing dope, and mugging everyone on the streets, got their acts together, and did something productive all their issues would be solved. Instead none of that is done and they expect the government to come in, give them their welfare checks, and now with what you are saying, jobs they are not qualified for simply because they are not white.

I should not justify this with a response, but "they" are not all criminals. Are you that much of a blinded idiot?

Eh, I was never optimistic about Obama being able to make many changes along these lines. He has to walk a careful tightrope where he can't be seen as "too black" or could be spun as "favoring blacks." For a lot of reasons I see Obama as president as actually being detrimental to the racial conflict in this country.

Agreed, now people can point to him as an example of how "any one" can better themselves through hard work, etc. and set affirmative action down a few notches.

These firefighters got the shaft for not getting promoted and in some ways justice was done. It was a skill test (as far as I know) and these white guys scored higher deserving promotion.

[TheMojoPin]

These firefighters got the shaft for not getting promoted and in some ways justice was done. It was a skill test (as far as I know) and these white guys scored higher deserving promotion.

If it was just firefighting skills testing then yeah, they would have been getting a raw deal.

[keithy_19]

I come from a white middle class family. Just wanted to get that out of the way.

My brothers are fire fighters (volunteer) and have applied for a multitude of departments. At this point, neither have been hired. Why is this? Probably because they didn't rank as high as others. And guess what? If my house is burning down, I want the person who is the best at what they do coming to put it out. I don't care what gender, color, or creed that person is. Let the best get the jobs. IT IS a matter of life or death.

[LordJezo]

I should not justify this with a response, but "they" are not all criminals. Are you that much of a blinded idiot?



Nope, they are not all criminals but they are all children who need to be protected with special laws and quotas. They are, as stated by the need for affirmative action, not the equals of the white man and thus need to be falsely raised up in order to compete. It's unfortunate they are treated like a sub species who can't do anything for themselves, but it's okay, the government is here to protect them.

[Furtherman]

Nope, they are not all criminals but they are all children who need to be protected with special laws and quotas. They are, as stated by the need for affirmative action, not the equals of the white man and thus need to be falsely raised up in order to compete. It's unfortunate they are treated like a sub species who can't do anything for themselves, but it's okay, the government is here to protect them.

http://blogs.denverpost.com/opinion/wp-content/photos/1_62_steele_michael.jpg

Your idiocy makes Michael cry.

[TheMojoPin]

Nope, they are not all criminals but they are all children who need to be protected with special laws and quotas. They are, as stated by the need for affirmative action, not the equals of the white man and thus need to be falsely raised up in order to compete. It's unfortunate they are treated like a sub species who can't do anything for themselves, but it's okay, the government is here to protect them.

That's not how affirmative action works at all and it's appaling that you apply the mentality and actions that have defined race relations for most of this nation's history to the few measures that exist and have shown success at taking tiny steps to maybe bridging the racial divide at some point in our future. Your line of thinking implies that everything is fine, everything and everyone is treated equally and that it's been that way for some time. Do you honestly believe that?

[Coach]

I believe that one of the guys who was dyslexic worked his ass off to pass the test. Passed it, and then was told that he wouldn't be promoted because there were not enough blacks that passed it (which I thought I heard that no blacks took the test at that time, I could be wrong though).
I would be pretty pissed off and sue as well.
When I took my fire test. There were people who had the option of having an instructor read the test to them. Even with that help, lots of people failed the exam.
I don't think the test was biased in any way, in fact, it covered exactly what was in the book. If you studied the book then you should have been ok.
And I dunno, reading is an important and necessary aspect to the job..like for Hazmat placards, refilling the air bottles, reading street signs...if you can't read, then I problem with you doing the job

[boosterp]

Nope, they are not all criminals but they are all children who need to be protected with special laws and quotas. They are, as stated by the need for affirmative action, not the equals of the white man and thus need to be falsely raised up in order to compete. It's unfortunate they are treated like a sub species who can't do anything for themselves, but it's okay, the government is here to protect them.

Ok, that is just sheer lunacy. You are off your rocker.

[sailor]

Let's not make this a Supreme Court vs. Sotomayor solo event.

The Supreme Court overturned a decision by the Second US Circuit Court of Appeals, which has, I believe, around 20 members.

It was THEIR decision they overturned.




But will the media present it that way? Doubtful.

from articles i've read it was a 3 judge panel.

[keithy_19]

Just for the record, they discussed Sotomayor on Special Report on Fox, and the visual they used was Sotomayor reading and talking to kids in a class room.

[badmonkey]

Just for the record, they discussed Sotomayor on Special Report on Fox, and the visual they used was Sotomayor reading and talking to kids in a class room.

What did you expect from the mouthpiece of the republican party?

[LordJezo]

That's not how affirmative action works at all and it's appaling that you apply the mentality and actions that have defined race relations for most of this nation's history to the few measures that exist and have shown success at taking tiny steps to maybe bridging the racial divide at some point in our future. Your line of thinking implies that everything is fine, everything and everyone is treated equally and that it's been that way for some time. Do you honestly believe that?

Everything is fine, it's the people who want hand me outs and the government to look after them that isn't fine. Affirmative action is simple racism, putting the color of someone above qualifications does nothing but act like people are not equal and a simple matter of skin color means you are less than someone else and need help. Get off your ass, stop dealing dope, and do something for yourself. People shouldn't expect that simply because they have non white skin that they are entitled to jobs and extra special care. Why should they ever bother to try to excel at anything if all they need to do is check off a non white skin color and they'll be handed the keys simply because someone has a quota to fill?

Liberals do nothing but continue the racial issues in this country by making laws that separate the whites from everyone else.

[TheMojoPin]

"Hand me outs?"

You're adorable.

I love how all of your summaries of anyone who benefits due to affirmative action so far imply that they:

Are on drugs.
Are selling drugs.
Are stealing drugs.
Are criminals.
Are willfully out of work.
Are on and expecting welfare.
Are lazy.

Did you miss the huge part about how affirmative action has benefited white women more than any other group? Kinda throws a huge spanner in your repeated predjudiced rants.

[sailor]

What did you expect from the mouthpiece of the republican party?

wait, when did talking to kids in a classroom become a bad thing?

[LordJezo]

Did you miss the huge part about how affirmative action has benefited white women more than any other group? Kinda throws a huge spanner in your repeated predjudiced rants.

Nope, just goes to show you that the white male is the most down trodden person in this country. Everything is working against them being able to get ahead.

[TheMojoPin]

Guh.

[foodcourtdruide]

Nope, just goes to show you that the white male is the most down trodden person in this country. Everything is working against them being able to get ahead.

Lol. Oh jezo. You so crazzzzzzy!

[LordJezo]

Lol. Oh jezo. You so crazzzzzzy!

Just you wait. FEMA work camps were brought up again as was the swine flu. But that's not for this topic, but they are expected soon according to the people at my gym.

[TheMojoPin]

GodDAMMIT, I want to go to this gym.

[styckx]

Holy shit @ the FEMA camps being brought up as a counter point in this thread

[foodcourtdruide]

GodDAMMIT, I want to go to this gym.

I have only spoken to someone at a gym once. It was a very attractive woman who randomly started talking to me about the elliptical machine. She flirted with me a little and I quickly ran into the bathroom and masturbated.

[TheMojoPin]

I have only spoken to someone at a gym once. It was a very attractive woman who randomly started talking to me about the elliptical machine. She flirted with me a little and I quickly ran into the bathroom and masturbated.

You sexy thing.

I've never been to a gym anywhere in the world where groups of people just stand around loudly yammering about one-world-government conspiracies.

[Hottub]

Nope, just goes to show you that the white male is the most down trodden person in this country. Everything is working against them being able to get ahead.

http://cpeople.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/laughing1.jpg

[keithy_19]

wait, when did talking to kids in a classroom become a bad thing?

I think it was sarcasm.

[badmonkey]

I think it was sarcasm.

What did you expect from the mouthpiece of the republican party?

[Tallman388]

from articles i've read it was a 3 judge panel.

I read the same thing.

and now for my obligatory LordJezo youtube clip:

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/TPMS6tGOACo&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/TPMS6tGOACo&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[Serpico1103]

Does anyone believe LordJezo really believes the nonsense that he posts, that he goes to a gym, let alone that at this imaginary gym, people are discussing FEMA camps?

Can everyone just stop replying to him.

[TheMojoPin]

Does anyone believe LordJezo really believes the nonsense that he posts, that he goes to a gym, let alone that at this imaginary gym, people are discussing FEMA camps?

Can everyone just stop replying to him.

I don't believe any of it, but I can't stand seeing that garbage dumped out here with someone smacking it down.

[epo]

Nope, just goes to show you that the white male is the most down trodden person in this country. Everything is working against them being able to get ahead.

Speaking for over-educated white guys everywhere, my life is pretty fucking sweet.

[styckx]

I bet he's a member of abovetopsecret.com

[foodcourtdruide]

Does anyone believe LordJezo really believes the nonsense that he posts, that he goes to a gym, let alone that at this imaginary gym, people are discussing FEMA camps?

Can everyone just stop replying to him.

I am 93% sure Jezo is a bit, however I'm 98% sure the JezoGym does not exist.

[silera]

This five part series in Slate is a pretty even handed review of the case, the test, the decision and the impacted parties.

http://www.slate.com/id/2221250/

Basically, what the 2nd court case did was NOT interpret the consitution and apply the law as intended. Even if the test wasn't inherently discriminatory, if the results generated a disparate discriminatory result, the results had to be tossed.

Jezo, you're welcomed to read it and maybe understand the issues at hand. None of these firefighters are on welfare or killing people. It sucks that any of the firefighters were put in the situation- these guys work with each other.

As far as not caring about the color of who is a first responder, I'd say in a perfect world it wouldn't matter. However, police officers and firefighters that don't reflect the neighborhoods they serve lose efficacy and worse yet, risk callousness.

[underdog]

GodDAMMIT, I want to go to this gym.

It's really just a bathhouse.

But the plus is you'll probably get blown if you go.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Maybe they should have studied harder. SCOTUS already made their judgement on this.

http://www.lohud.com/article/20091208/NEWS/912080380/New-Haven-black-firefighters-seek-to-halt-promotions

[boosterp]

Maybe they should have studied harder. SCOTUS already made their judgement on this.

http://www.lohud.com/article/20091208/NEWS/912080380/New-Haven-black-firefighters-seek-to-halt-promotions

This is a fucked up case. Eh, that's Connecticut for you though.

[Dude!]

Lawyers for the group filed a motion in U.S. District Court on Monday, saying the exams may be flawed, the New Haven Register reported.

the exams were race-biased
they just need to add a few questions
on welfare, popeye's, and gold teeth