Is Mariano the Greatest closer, Ever?

[Hottub]

I'm trying to be objective here. Sure I have a bit of a homer slant being able to see him work day in and day out.
The dopes on YES just mentioned that today is his 13th anniversary.
I can't think of a reliever that has slammed the door more than Rivera.
His numbers. (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/5400/career)

Please give me some other options.

[Devo37]

i hate Mariano! :furious:

you'd think hitters would've figured out how to hit him after all these years. maybe when he retires, the NL will finally win another All Star Game.

[MacVittie]

The only other person that could really enter into the argument is Trevor Hoffman.

I'll say that they're the best closers from the AL and NL, respectively.

[drjoek]

Yes

Lock it

[drjoek]

He is the hammer of God

[IMSlacker]

probably.

[instrument]

When it comes to closers, mariano is the satellite of glove..gehgehgeh

[RhinoinMN]

Jack Morris.

[Kevin]

The only other person that could really enter into the argument is Trevor Hoffman.

I'll say that they're the best closers from the AL and NL, respectively.

Please, stop it, stop it right now.

There isnt a big game that Trevor Hoffman could ever close.

Please, please, for the love of God, stop it.

At least give me Goose or Eck..

Trevor Hoffman?

Stop it.

[RhinoinMN]

bunch of fuckin homers

[Kevin]

bunch of fuckin homers

I don't mind someone saying no.

But fucking give me Trevor Hoffman.

Stop it.

[Kevin]

fuck, id buy your boy Joe Nathan over Trevor Hoffman.

Stop it.

[RhinoinMN]

who's the hot prospect in Albania?

[RhinoinMN]

what about Goose?

[Kevin]

who's the hot prospect in Albania?

I'd take him over Trevor Hoffman.

[MacVittie]

http://blogs.riverfronttimes.com/therundown/52543764_0ec270cf3e_o.jpg

[Kevin]

http://blogs.riverfronttimes.com/therundown/52543764_0ec270cf3e_o.jpg

We said closer of all time, sir.

Not sexiest closer of all time.

[monkfish]

You have to consider Eckersley and Goose - maybe even Rollie Fingers, but Rivera has to take it.

[TheMojoPin]

Please, stop it, stop it right now.

There isnt a big game that Trevor Hoffman could ever close.

Please, please, for the love of God, stop it.

At least give me Goose or Eck..

Trevor Hoffman?

Stop it.

Yeah, Hoffman is a prime example of why the save stat itself is only slightly less useless than the pitching wins/losses stat. When you break down Hoffman's critical pitching numbers he's decent but nowhere near as good as Mariano. With as many innings as Mariano has pitched and the mindboggling WHIPs he's had he's arguably not just the best closer of all time, but also one of the greatest pitchers of all time, period.

[KnoxHarrington]

The incredible thing about Mariano is how he's stayed at this level so long. There have been a lot of closers who had a few dominant years, but then rapidly fell off the face of the earth (Rob Dibble, John Rocker, Bobby Thigpen...) It's a very tough job.

[Fallon]

Eric Gagne, but just for those three years.

[TheMojoPin]

The incredible thing about Mariano is how he's stayed at this level so long. There have been a lot of closers who had a few dominant years, but then rapidly fell off the face of the earth (Rob Dibble, John Rocker, Bobby Thigpen...) It's a very tough job.

Exactly. He really is a remarkable pitcher.

[Kevin]

On second thought..

This was started my a man who does not like pancakes..

I automatically have to go against his question or opinion..

So by default..

No he is not.

[Gvac]

https://www.beckett.com/images/pgitems/327380101.jpg

[Kevin]

Eric Gagne, but just for those three years.

Yea he showed the pitcher he was off roids, when he joined your team.

[Dude!]

Huston Street will be
the Rivera of his generation

[cougarjake13]

i'd have to give it to goose mainly cause he had to get 9 outs for his saves

[TheGameHHH]

Yes, absolutely

[badorties]

We said closer of all time, sir.

Not sexiest closer of all time.

i beg to differ ... not only is he the undisputed greatest, he's one sharp-looking man

http://www.homeruncards.com/imagesrc/riverabow.jpg

[King Hippos Bandaid]

it pains me to say yes


but if he was in the 80s or further back, he would have never cut it

He plays in the 1 inning era, so I cant hold it against him

[Kevin]

it pains me to say yes


but if he was in the 80s or further back, he would have never cut it

He plays in the 1 inning era, so I cant hold it against him

Mo was used for a ton of 2 inning saves during his younger days. And in 96, he throw 2 inning almost every game.

[hammersavage]

This is not a question

[TheGameHHH]

Mo was used for a ton of 2 inning saves during his younger days. And in 96, he throw 2 inning almost every game.

he also wasnt the closer in 96

[El Mudo]

Yes...if only for what he did last year

Last year, in 70 IP and facing 259 batters, he only walked 6(!) of them, for a WHIP of .66, and had an ERA+ of 317 (small sample size aside, that's amazing...and for his career, its 199, also amazing)

And he was 38 years old

[IMSlacker]

With as many innings as Mariano has pitched and the mindboggling WHIPs he's had he's arguably not just the best closer of all time, but also one of the greatest pitchers, who couldn't make it as a starter, of all time, period.

fixed.

[Meataball23]

Yes he is and its not close. The post season numbers are just staggering, and longevity at such a high level is unparalleled.

And thoffman doesnt count bc he blows in every pressure situation.

[A.J.]

http://www.impawards.com/tv/posters/closer.jpg

[EddieMoscone]

fixed.

And there are plenty of starters who wouldn't be able to make it as closers. What's the point? His job is his job.

If I was greatest fry cook on the planet, but couldn't boil and egg properly, does that take away from my status as the greatest fry cook on the planet?

[IMSlacker]

And there are plenty of starters who wouldn't be able to make it as closers. What's the point? His job is his job.

Maybe, but I would bet that any pitcher who would be considered one of the greatest starters off all time, could also have been a great closer. A great starter is much more valuable than a great closer is my point.

[EddieMoscone]

Maybe, but I would bet that any pitcher who would be considered one of the greatest starters off all time, could also have been a great closer. A great starter is much more valuable than a great closer is my point.

For the most part, great closers (or relievers for that matter), should be strikeout pitchers since they many times will be entering a game with runners on base. I don't know if a great finesse starter would necessarily make a great closer or reliever.

[EddieMoscone]

For the most part, great closers (or relievers for that matter), should be strikeout pitchers since they many times will be entering a game with runners on base. I don't know if a great finesse starter would necessarily make a great closer or reliever.

Let me add to that...ground balls pitchers can make good relievers too if you're looking for a double play, but that is a very specialized situation.

[epo]

For the most part, great closers (or relievers for that matter), should be strikeout pitchers since they many times will be entering a game with runners on base. I don't know if a great finesse starter would necessarily make a great closer or reliever.

And yet Trevor Hoffman's best pitch is a change-up.

[IMSlacker]

And yet Trevor Hoffman's best pitch is a change-up.

But, he's still a strike-out pitcher.

[Earlshog]

bunch of fuckin homers

worst thing you can call a man


and yes he is... even though he did blow three huge playoff games. In 97 against Cleveland, 2004 against Boston allowing the comeback and 2001 WS game 7.

[EddieMoscone]

But, he's still a strike-out pitcher.

I just looked at his stats. In 1996 he had 111 K's in 88 IP and in 1997 he had 111 K's in 81 IP. It's only over the past 5 years that he's averaged less than a strikeout an inning, and for his career he still averages over 1 an inning.

[ChrisTheCop]

No one's saying he's infallible. Or even the best this season.
But all things considered, I'd say yes he is the greatest closer on record ever, so far.

That's not as hard to say as you might think.

[TheMojoPin]

fixed.

Normally that would be true, but the innings he's racked up with his success has really put him up there.

[TNABuffalo]

Closer , yes,

but anyone who wants to include him with all time starters really doesn't know baseball. (and how it fundamentally changed)

[TheMojoPin]

Closer , yes,

but anyone who wants to include him with all time starters really doesn't know baseball. (and how it fundamentally changed)

Mariano is in a class of his own as a reliever based on the number of innings he's pitched. It's obviously not the same as being a starter, but he should be evaluated at this point as a pitcher in general and not just as "only" a reliever due to his total number of innings.

[SP1!]

No, hes the product of a current generation of closers pitching one inning at the most.

[TheGameHHH]

Closer , yes,

but anyone who wants to include him with all time starters really doesn't know baseball. (and how it fundamentally changed)

the title of this thread doesnt even come close to including the word starter.....stay on topic you silly man

[Kevin]

the title of this thread doesnt even come close to including the word starter.....stay on topic you silly man

He s from Buffalo...


OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

[razorboy]

At least give me Goose or Eck...

Yes. Maybe Rollie.

[TheGameHHH]

He s from Buffalo...


OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

makes a lot more sense now

[TheMojoPin]

No, hes the product of a current generation of closers pitching one inning at the most.

Except he's got a history of often pitching the last couple of innings.

Again, not saying it makes him a starter, but to be as great as he has for the sheer number of innings he's racked up puts him being being "just a closer." No, iit's not the same as starting, but it is a feat unto itself in how these guys need to be ready to go and be on their game almost every single day. He's taken that to the nth degree.

[sailor]

Except he's got a history of often pitching the last couple of innings.

Again, not saying it makes him a starter, but to be as great as he has for the sheer number of innings he's racked up puts him being being "just a closer." No, iit's not the same as starting, but it is a feat unto itself in how these guys need to be ready to go and be on their game almost every single day. He's taken that to the nth degree.

for shame!

http://images.publicradio.org/content/2007/09/21/20070921_ani_difranco_2.jpg

[Marc with a c]

basically has one fucking pitch. he's a freak, and nobody is a close second that i have seen.

[zildjian361]

No doubt:king:

[Gvac]

How could you possibly think Mariano is the greatest Yankee ever?

Ridiculous.

[zildjian361]

How could you possibly think Mariano is the greatest Yankee ever?

Ridiculous.

Yankee Closer ever:wallbash:

[Gvac]

I guess you've all forgotten about Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, Mantle, Berra, etc.

Crazy talk.

[zildjian361]

I guess you've all forgotten about Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, Mantle, Berra, etc.

Crazy talk.

your'e not listen'ing:wink:

[MacVittie]

I guess you've all forgotten about Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, Mantle, Berra, etc.

Crazy talk.

Mariano has more saves than all of those players combined. He's a superior closer.

[Gvac]

You're both crazy.

What about Ron Guidry?

[disneyspy]

You're both crazy.

What about Ron Guidry?

deffinately,and he played at a time when pitchers pitched 7 innings and he pitched 2,everyday AND he went into the bullpen after being a starter for years,fuck mariano and eveyone that thinks he the greatest in their stupid asses

[razorboy]

Does this make Luis Gonzalez the greatest clutch hitter ever?

[Kevin]

You're both crazy.

What about Ron Guidry?

He was a shitty pitching coach.

[MacVittie]

You're both crazy.

What about Ron Guidry?

Ron Guidry was a starter.

[zildjian361]

You're both crazy.

What about Ron Guidry?

he was Starter pitched 9 innings most of the time.:surrender:

[razorboy]

Ron Guidry was a starter.

So was Rivera.

[MacVittie]

Does this make Luis Gonzalez the greatest clutch hitter ever?

Based on what, the fact that he is 77th all time on the career hits list?

[disneyspy]

i was thinkin of dennis eckersley,fuck mariano in his stupid ass

[IMSlacker]

Based on what, the fact that he is 77th all time on the career hits list?

Based on his walk-off single off Rivera in game 7 of the 2001 World Series

[brettmojo]

Does this make Luis Gonzalez the greatest clutch hitter ever?
Yeah. He's slightly above Jim Leyritz.

[MacVittie]

Based on his walk-off single off Rivera in game 7 of the 2001 World Series

I don't understand what that has to do with being the greatest clutch hitter of all time.

[IMSlacker]

I don't understand what that has to do with being the greatest clutch hitter of all time.

I think it was a joke.

[sailor]

I don't understand what that has to do with being the greatest clutch hitter of all time.

you're either brilliant or should have forgotten to breathe by now.

[MacVittie]

you're either brilliant or should have forgotten to breathe by now.

One of my shortcomings is that I take baseball and baseball history very seriously. If someone throws something ludicrous out there like Luis Gonzalez being the greatest clutch hitter of all time, I'm going to demand an explanation, completely ignoring the possibility that it might be facetious.

[TheGameHHH]

One of my shortcomings is that I take baseball and baseball history very seriously. If someone throws something ludicrous out there like Luis Gonzalez being the greatest clutch hitter of all time, I'm going to demand an explanation, completely ignoring the possibility that it might be facetious.

i agree. i was going to post the same thing you did. clearly now i know it was a joke but i would have demanded an explination as well

[Kevin]

i agree. i was going to post the same thing you did. clearly now i know it was a joke but i would have demanded an explination as well

He hit a bloop pop up on a drawn in infield that should not have been drawn in in the first place, because Mariano only gave up bloop hits..

What part of this being clutch don't you get?

[TheGameHHH]

He hit a bloop pop up on a drawn in infield that should not have been drawn in in the first place, because Mariano only gave up bloop hits..

What part of this being clutch don't you get?

im confused about what your talking about. i wasnt arguing Mo being the greatest closer ever

[epo]

im confused about what your talking about. i wasnt arguing Mo being the greatest closer ever

Don't worry...Kevin rarely makes sense.

[Doctor Z]

Spoiler Alert! For the correct answer, highlight below.

Yes.

[Kevin]

Don't worry...Kevin rarely makes sense.

Brett Favre loves you.

[The Happening]

Mariano Rivera will go down as the greatest closer ever, no doubt. But can we step back for a sec and see the closer position for what it is. It's easily the most overreated position in baseball. I mean, a guy can come in for one inning with a 3 run lead, get the opposing teams 7-8-9 hitters out, and get a save. Sure, Mariano has his share on 1 1/3 to 1 2/3 inning outings. But that's it! Sometimes, the guy coming in the 7th or 8th inning is doing the tougher job against the opposing teams best hitters. The closers impact on a game is much smaller than the starters, and the same as the middle relievers he follows.

You know what closers are? FAILED STARTERS. The save category is ridiculous anyway. Sometimes the game is really saved in the 7th inning. So sure, Mariano will go down as the greatest closer ever. But that should be looked at the same as the greatest 6th man in the NBA is. Or the greatest special teams player in football. Mariano's career should never be considered better than any good starting pitchers is. For example, Jack Morris had a MUCH better career than Mariano. Same goes for David Cone, Frank Tanana, Jamie Moyer, and Bob Welch. Shoot, the innings any starter puts in over a closer should be the closing of that case. So again, yes Mariano is the best closer of all time. But lets keep it in perspective.

[brettmojo]

Mariano Rivera will go down as the greatest closer ever, no doubt. But can we step back for a sec and see the closer position for what it is. It's easily the most overreated position in baseball. I mean, a guy can come in for one inning with a 3 run lead, get the opposing teams 7-8-9 hitters out, and get a save. Sure, Mariano has his share on 1 1/3 to 1 2/3 inning outings. But that's it! Sometimes, the guy coming in the 7th or 8th inning is doing the tougher job against the opposing teams best hitters. The closers impact on a game is much smaller than the starters, and the same as the middle relievers he follows.

You know what closers are? FAILED STARTERS. The save category is ridiculous anyway. Sometimes the game is really saved in the 7th inning. So sure, Mariano will go down as the greatest closer ever. But that should be looked at the same as the greatest 6th man in the NBA is. Or the greatest special teams player in football. Mariano's career should never be considered better than any good starting pitchers is. For example, Jack Morris had a MUCH better career than Mariano. Same goes for David Cone, Frank Tanana, Jamie Moyer, and Bob Welch. Shoot, the innings any starter puts in over a closer should be the closing of that case. So again, yes Mariano is the best closer of all time. But lets keep it in perspective.
By this logic Kei Igawa is potentially the greatest closer ever.

[drjoek]

Mariano Rivera will go down as the greatest closer ever, no doubt. But can we step back for a sec and see the closer position for what it is. It's easily the most overreated position in baseball. I mean, a guy can come in for one inning with a 3 run lead, get the opposing teams 7-8-9 hitters out, and get a save. Sure, Mariano has his share on 1 1/3 to 1 2/3 inning outings. But that's it! Sometimes, the guy coming in the 7th or 8th inning is doing the tougher job against the opposing teams best hitters. The closers impact on a game is much smaller than the starters, and the same as the middle relievers he follows.

You know what closers are? FAILED STARTERS. The save category is ridiculous anyway. Sometimes the game is really saved in the 7th inning. So sure, Mariano will go down as the greatest closer ever. But that should be looked at the same as the greatest 6th man in the NBA is. Or the greatest special teams player in football. Mariano's career should never be considered better than any good starting pitchers is. For example, Jack Morris had a MUCH better career than Mariano. Same goes for David Cone, Frank Tanana, Jamie Moyer, and Bob Welch. Shoot, the innings any starter puts in over a closer should be the closing of that case. So again, yes Mariano is the best closer of all time. But lets keep it in perspective.



Crazy talk
The closer by committe which is basically what your suggesting, having a pitcher come in at what is considered the key point of the game, has never worked.
Those last three outs are a different beast
The next big closers keep coming along and go and Month is still there.

[Contra]

Mariano Rivera will go down as the greatest closer ever, no doubt. But can we step back for a sec and see the closer position for what it is. It's easily the most overreated position in baseball. I mean, a guy can come in for one inning with a 3 run lead, get the opposing teams 7-8-9 hitters out, and get a save. Sure, Mariano has his share on 1 1/3 to 1 2/3 inning outings. But that's it! Sometimes, the guy coming in the 7th or 8th inning is doing the tougher job against the opposing teams best hitters. The closers impact on a game is much smaller than the starters, and the same as the middle relievers he follows.

You know what closers are? FAILED STARTERS. The save category is ridiculous anyway. Sometimes the game is really saved in the 7th inning. So sure, Mariano will go down as the greatest closer ever. But that should be looked at the same as the greatest 6th man in the NBA is. Or the greatest special teams player in football. Mariano's career should never be considered better than any good starting pitchers is. For example, Jack Morris had a MUCH better career than Mariano. Same goes for David Cone, Frank Tanana, Jamie Moyer, and Bob Welch. Shoot, the innings any starter puts in over a closer should be the closing of that case. So again, yes Mariano is the best closer of all time. But lets keep it in perspective.

I agree, this is crazy talk. Its like saying a winnning field goal or defensive stop at the end of a football game carries the same pressure as the opening drive.

They are entirely different animals, starting and closing, this should not be compared.

[lleeder]

Hey drjoe going friday? I'll be there.

[drjoek]

Hey drjoe going friday? I'll be there.


Yeah
Let's meet at the game

[lleeder]

Yeah
Let's meet at the game

how lame yet excitin.
i might just puke before i drink this time.

[drjoek]

how lame yet excitin.
i might just puke before i drink this time.



I have a magic effect on people.
I will pm you during the week.

[Moe Lester]

my yankee hate runs deep but yeah, rivera is the best ever.

[TheMojoPin]

Mariano Rivera will go down as the greatest closer ever, no doubt. But can we step back for a sec and see the closer position for what it is. It's easily the most overreated position in baseball. I mean, a guy can come in for one inning with a 3 run lead, get the opposing teams 7-8-9 hitters out, and get a save. Sure, Mariano has his share on 1 1/3 to 1 2/3 inning outings. But that's it! Sometimes, the guy coming in the 7th or 8th inning is doing the tougher job against the opposing teams best hitters. The closers impact on a game is much smaller than the starters, and the same as the middle relievers he follows.

You know what closers are? FAILED STARTERS. The save category is ridiculous anyway. Sometimes the game is really saved in the 7th inning. So sure, Mariano will go down as the greatest closer ever. But that should be looked at the same as the greatest 6th man in the NBA is. Or the greatest special teams player in football. Mariano's career should never be considered better than any good starting pitchers is. For example, Jack Morris had a MUCH better career than Mariano. Same goes for David Cone, Frank Tanana, Jamie Moyer, and Bob Welch. Shoot, the innings any starter puts in over a closer should be the closing of that case. So again, yes Mariano is the best closer of all time. But lets keep it in perspective.

On the one hand I totally agree that the closer role is overrated in the grand scheme of the bullpen. I think the best pitcher in the bullpen should usually be in the setup role as opposed to automatically being the closer. On the other hand, I don't think Mariano is "just a closer" as you seem to be implying. Yes, we know what closers are, but he's also clearly WAY beyond the typical closer.

[The Happening]

By this logic Kei Igawa is potentially the greatest closer ever.
Yes! You forget that the Yankees first groomed Mariano to be a starter in the minors. His first season in the bigs as a starter, Mariano was awful. He had a plus 5 ERA. Like most closers, Mariano was a failed starter converted to a closer.

[The Happening]

Crazy talk
The closer by committe which is basically what your suggesting, having a pitcher come in at what is considered the key point of the game, has never worked.
Those last three outs are a different beast
The next big closers keep coming along and go and Month is still there. I didn't bring up the closer by committe at all. I brought up the closers role, the defined role.

Those last 3 outs are no different then the 3 outs gotten in the 7th inning. Don't fool yourself. Just because a silly stat(save) is attached to it, doesn't make it any more special.