What Was the More Impressive Chicago Pitching Performance: 20 k's or a Pefect Game?

[TheMojoPin]

In the wake of Buehrle's perfect game, one of the most common discussions in Chicago today on the sports radio shows and such has been the debate over what was the more impressive/better/dominant single pitching performance: Buehrle's perfect game or Wood's 20k game?

Both are tremendously and impressive and have been accomplished by very few other players over the history of MLB. Only 18 players have thrown a perfect game while while only 3 players have thrown 20-strikeout games in 9 innings (Clemens did it twice).

Wood's game was almost a no-hitter itself except for a single to the SS that arguably should have been scored an error.

Buehrle's game is without a doubt tremendously impressive and an amazing feat, but I think Wood's feat was more impressive and a more dominant pitching performance. I believe only 8 players actually put the ball in play against Wood. Buehrle gave up the long shot that was a home run if not for Wise's amazing catch. That's not saying that the perfect still isn't amazing but it's still very much a team and pitching effort in Buerhle's case, but as a singular pitching effort I think Wood was far more dominant.

Just a reminder how overpowering he was. (http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?mid=200804302618096)

[sailor]

chisox

[K.C.]

Can we re-title this thread "Cubs fan's pathetic attempt to steal the spotlight from Chicago's A-Team"

[dino_electropolis]

Fuck the cubbies, fuck Wood.

Sad cubbies fans tryin to steal the thunder from the ChiSox's Beuherlerelehe.


Perfect Game.

[Melk]

As good as Wood's 20 strike outs were they didn't amount to the Cubs being a threat in the NL Central that year. I also think that like the White Sox's Wilson Alverez first start no-hitter, Wood's 20ks poisoned the Cubs fans' judgement of him after that. The fans wouldn't lose faith in Wood in spite his being injury-prone and inconsistent. Buehrle's perfect game came on top of wins in the 2005 ALCS and WS.

[TheMojoPin]

Nobody is trying to steal anything from anyone: like I said it's been the main debate going on on the sports stations and shows and in the papers here today after the initial talk about Buehrle's game.

I'm not taking anything away from what Buerhle did: it's an amazing accomplishment. It made people here think back to the last pitching performance by a Chicago pitcher that was that dominant or more dominant:Wood's 20 k game.

If it's Buerhle's game, why?

If it's Wood's game, why?

I said Wood's game because no batter even came close to getting extra bases much less scoring against him. Buerhle gave up what would have been a home run if not for a truly spectacular and unbelieavble catch by Wise. Only 8 batters even managed to put the ball in play against Wood whereas 21 batters were able to do so against Buerhle. Wood's game only wasn't a no-hitter due to the decision of the scorer to charge a subjective play as a hit instead of as an error. Again, only 3 players have managed to rack up 20 k's in a single 9-inning game whereas 18 have pitched a perfect game. Both are incredibly rare, but one is clearly even more rare than the other. I think when you compare the pitching performances you have to go with Wood as well. Buerhle has a solid array of pitches but nothing truly overpowering. A significant number of the AB's became outs due to close calls by the ump or flat out due to luck. Wood had inhuman movement on his pitches that day in addition to be able to touch the mid and upper 90's on the fastball.

I thought I could get a relatively objective disucssion going with the baseball fans here as to what they pick and why, but sadly it is not to be.

[TheMojoPin]

As good as Wood's 20 strike outs were they didn't amount to the Cubs being a threat in the NL Central that year. I also think that like the White Sox's Wilson Alverez first start no-hitter, Wood's 20ks poisoned the Cubs fans' judgement of him after that. The fans wouldn't lose faith in Wood in spite his being injury-prone and inconsistent. Buehrle's perfect game came on top of wins in the 2005 ALCS and WS.

I'm talking game vs. game, not comparisons of the careers, teams or seasons.

[dino_electropolis]

Nobody is trying to steal anything from anyone: like I said it's been the main debate going on on the sports stations and shows and in the papers here today after the initial talk about Buehrle's game.

I'm not taking anything away from what Buerhle did: it's an amazing accomplishment. It made people here think back to the last pitching performance by a Chicago pitcher that was that dominant or more dominant:Wood's 20 k game.

If it's Buerhle's game, why?

If it's Wood's game, why?

I said Wood's game because no batter even came close to getting extra bases much less scoring against him. Buerhle gave up what would have been a home run if not for a truly spectacular and unbelieavble catch by Wise. Only 8 batters even managed to put the ball in play against Wood whereas 21 batters were able to do so against Buerhle. Wood's game only wasn't a no-hitter due to the decision of the scorer to charge a subjective play as a hit instead of as an error.

I thought I could get a relatively objective disucssion going with the baseball fans here as to what they pick and why, but sadly it is not to be.

true true...

i see how 20k's is a more impressive individual accomplishment.
But 20k's dont guarantee the team wins. For instance, He could have gone 7 innings with 20 straight k's only to give up 9 home runs later on. It doesnt guarantee the team will win.

Perfect game does.

So from an individual perspective, i would agree with you, b/c 20k's is in the hands of just the pitcher (and catcher, actually)

But from an "impressive" perspective, i gotta go wiht perfect game IF ONLY for being able to deal with the pressure after the 7th inning, knowing you have a perfect game happening.

[Melk]

I'm talking game vs. game, not comparisons of the careers, teams or seasons.
Game vs. game, eh? Do you suggest that Cooperstown consider Dave McDonald's Little League stats? The context of the game, the team, the season and career matter when comparing stats.

[K.C.]

Nobody would ever say Buerhle has ever had better pure stuff than Wood, and I don't think anyone would say Buerhle during the perfect game had better pure stuff than Wood during the 20K game.

But, they're two completely different style pitchers as well. Buerhle pitches to contact.

If anything, for Buerhle to throw a perfect game without having a real strikeout pitch is a much more impressive performance, because that's 21 outs that were recorded in play (many of which were weak ground balls).

You could argue Wood had better stuff, and maybe even that he was more dominating in that game, but it's hard to argue against a perfect game in terms of impressive.

And especially since Buerhle's style is generally a liability against him pitching a perfect game.

For him to dominate a game like that, he had to have been perfectly pinpoint with location and contact points all game. He literally had to make perfect pitches.

Whereas, a guy like Wood can let a lot of pitches just fly, because they're so overpowering. He can be wild in the strike zone and still make people miss (not that he was during the 20K game...but he has that extra part of his game).

[Fallon]

I like the 20k. That's a shit load of strikes and it's more dominating by the pitcher. A no hitter or perfect game relies on the defense too much.

[CYYYFYYY]

I will say Wood. To get 20 K's you are doing it by yourself. A Perfect game you need some help. There has also been more perfect games than 20 K games. That being said I feel the K is an overated stat so I guess I am making no sense as usual

[TheMojoPin]

true true...

i see how 20k's is a more impressive individual accomplishment.
But 20k's dont guarantee the team wins. For instance, He could have gone 7 innings with 20 straight k's only to give up 9 home runs later on. It doesnt guarantee the team will win.

Perfect game does.

So from an individual perspective, i would agree with you, b/c 20k's is in the hands of just the pitcher (and catcher, actually)

But from an "impressive" perspective, i gotta go wiht perfect game IF ONLY for being able to deal with the pressure after the 7th inning, knowing you have a perfect game happening.

Again, we're comparing the actual games, not hypotheticals. If Wood struck out 20 and still gave up "9 home runs later on," or even any runs, then this conversation wouldn't even be happening.

[dino_electropolis]

Again, we're comparing the actual games, not hypotheticals. If Wood struck out 20 and still gave up "9 home runs later on," or even any runs, then this conversation wouldn't even be happening.

not really as he would still have had the 20ks. What ur last post does is put the game in context which u poo poo'd earlier

My understanding was the feat itself: 20ks vs perfection.

[kdubya]

I say the perfect game. A perfect game is cool because it is the effort of the entire team, every guy on the field has a piece in it. 20 strike outs may be harder for a pitcher to accomplish but I still say a perfect game is more impressive because its not just one guy in the zone, its 9 guys in the zone.

[epo]

Wood's 20K game was amazing. That was an accomplishment I'll never forget.

However Buehrle's was more impressive as it was PERFECT. I don't care how Buehrle did it, it was a perfect game which is the mountaintop for an individual pitching performance.

[Melrapuo]

I'm honestly going to go with Woods. Granted, Buerhle's perfect game is just amazing. But when a pitcher can single-handedly retire 20 hitters with strikeouts, with little assistance needed from the rest of the team? That is something I call more of an individual accomplishment. But, then again, its only more impressive by a small percentage. A perfect game is something an entire team can contribute in accomplishing. 20 K's? That's all the pitcher right there. (Well, and the catcher behind the plate, too :P)

[Dirtbag]

Randy Johnson has both. Suck it.

[TheMojoPin]

Randy Johnson has both. Suck it.

Technically. His 20 k game was actually an 11-inning game, though he pitched 9 of them.

[TheMojoPin]

My understanding was the feat itself: 20ks vs perfection.

What Was the More Impressive Chicago Pitching Performance: 20 k's or a Pefect Game?

No, not the feats in general...these two games vs. each other as pitching performances.

[TheMojoPin]

I say the perfect game. A perfect game is cool because it is the effort of the entire team, every guy on the field has a piece in it. 20 strike outs may be harder for a pitcher to accomplish but I still say a perfect game is more impressive because its not just one guy in the zone, its 9 guys in the zone.

Fair enough, though I was trying to get people to vote based on what they thought was the better PITCHING performance, not team performance.

[Dirtbag]

Technically. His 20 k game was actually an 11-inning game, though he pitched 9 of them.
He struck out 20 guys in 9 innings. You can't hold the Diamondbacks historically inept offense against him.

[TheMojoPin]

He struck out 20 guys in 9 innings. You can't hold the Diamondbacks historically inept offense against him.

I'm not.

[dino_electropolis]

No, not the feats in general...these two games vs. each other as pitching performances.


This is my approach:
if these 2 pitchers pitched these respective games against each other in game 7 of the world series, which pitcher do u want for ur team?

Perfect game = championship
20ks. = a long off season

[TheMojoPin]

This is my approach:
if these 2 pitchers pitched these respective games against each other in game 7 of the world series, which pitcher do u want for ur team?

Perfect game = championship
20ks. = a long off season

Stacking the 9 innings pitched by both pitchers against each other in a single game means the score at the end of 9 is 0-0 since both were shutouts. How are you deciding that one team loses after 9?

I like your approach, but I'm trying to figure out how you figured that one team would lose after 9 innings based on how both pitchers pitched.

[cougarjake13]

perfect game is more impressive



20 k's is huge but there was 7 other outs and the one hit you mentioned


plus he didnt have to go 0-3 in every count for those strikeouts

[TheMojoPin]

perfect game is more impressive



20 k's is huge but there was 7 other outs and the one hit you mentioned

Sure, but again, this is stacking them up as dominant PITCHING performances. Wood took care of 20 of the 28 outs on his own. Buerhle needed the defense for 21 of his outs, plus for all intents and purposes he gave up a HR. Wood didn't even give them a chance to score, and the single Wood gave up was very arguably a misscored error since it was an easy grounder to SS.

plus he didnt have to go 0-3 in every count for those strikeouts

How is that a detriment to the 20 k's or a plus to the perfect game? Hell, if you're talking about the perfect game Buerhle worked himself into more hitter's counts and full counts than Wood did.

[King Hippos Bandaid]

wow Mojo, this perfect game has you in a tizzy


perfection always wins


look at you trying to make it about your precious Cubs

[TheMojoPin]

Read the thread, you decadent fool.

[King Hippos Bandaid]

Read the thread, you decadent fool.

I didn't get where I am today by reading threads

[sailor]

I didn't get where I am today by reading threads

read all the threads.

[ozzie]

If I didn't see either performance, and just based it on stats, and each feat on paper... I'd go with the Perfect Game.

But watching both pitchers, and how nasty Wood was that day... more impressed with the pitching performance of Kerry. Nearly untouchable.

Never seen anything like it before, or since in the majors. Similar closing efforts for a short stint... but not for 9 innings.

[TheGameHHH]

If I didn't see either performance, and just based it on stats, and each feat on paper... I'd go with the Perfect Game.

But watching both pitchers, and how nasty Wood was that day... more impressed with the pitching performance of Kerry. Nearly untouchable.

Never seen anything like it before, or since in the majors. Similar closing efforts for a short stint... but not for 9 innings.

neither did i, and because of that i feel like i cant make an accurate judgement. based on stats only a handful of people have struck out 20 while 18 have thrown perfect games. but it really comes down to witnessing both these games in order to make an accurate decision. i didnt do that so i dont feel like i can give an opinion

[Melk]

Incidently, has any pitcher in MLB history done the perfect game in fewer than 81 pitches? Or a straight-forward 27 consecutive strike outs?

[foodcourtdruide]

Incidently, has any pitcher in MLB history done the perfect game in fewer than 81 pitches? Or a straight-forward 27 consecutive strike outs?

Steve Nebraska.

[joeyballsack]

Mark Buehrle is my vote.

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[kdubya]

Fair enough, though I was trying to get people to vote based on what they thought was the better PITCHING performance, not team performance.

Based on that I still say the perfect game. 20 Ks is impressive for doing something very well, a perfect game is that plus not making mistakes.
With 20ks as long as you are striking folks out you are working towards your goal. In a perfect game you have to get folks out without giving up a base. One mistake it is all over. That pressure alone puts a perfect game over 20ks.

[JPMNICK]

I am going to go with 20k's.

in terms of an individual performace, you have to choose that one. think of how many perfect games were lost by a shitty bloop single that maybe with a different defender it gets caught.

if you were mowing people down, the ball is never in play. woods could have had a little league team behind him and he wins that game easily. this particular perfect game was saved by a defensive replacement in the 9th inning. if not for that, we dont even have this convo. that was a home run.

20k's is individual performance of the 2. as a whole package, the perfect game is better because it involves 9 guys not fucking up

[EddieMoscone]

I like the 20k. That's a shit load of strikes and it's more dominating by the pitcher. A no hitter or perfect game relies on the defense too much.

This answer. The end result of a ball put into play (out are hit) has many more variables other than if the pitcher made a good pitch. Player positioning and luck play too much into it.

Strikeouts are pretty much 100% a result of the pitchers action.

Let's put it this way...which accomplishment has happened less? To me, the rarer the feat the harder it is.

[Marc with a c]

wood's performance is the most dominating game pitched in my life, maybe ever.

[TripleSkeet]

A perfect game and heres why:

You can throw 20 k's and still lose.

I think the perfect game is more a team feat because defense plays such a big part, but so does the pitcher because he has to stay perfect. No walks. No hit batsmen. No hits, period.

20 k's is a huge feat, but if you do that and lose, it doesnt mean dick.

[TheMojoPin]

A perfect game and heres why:

You can throw 20 k's and still lose.

I think the perfect game is more a team feat because defense plays such a big part, but so does the pitcher because he has to stay perfect. No walks. No hit batsmen. No hits, period.

20 k's is a huge feat, but if you do that and lose, it doesnt mean dick.

But once again, we're not talking about the larger hypotheticals of the situations in general: the question was in regards to these two specific games being compared to each other as pitching performances.

[TheMojoPin]

Based on that I still say the perfect game. 20 Ks is impressive for doing something very well, a perfect game is that plus not making mistakes.

Buerhle did make a mistake. He essentially allowed the other team to score and they didn't only due to an incredible defensive play by Wise. Wood never allowed the Astros to get even remotely close to scoring. His defense only had to handle 8 routine plays. Buerhle needed his defense to come to his aid 21 times and ultimately save his ass from giving up a HR. Breaking it down like that, which is the more dominant singular pitching performance?

[EddieMoscone]

Buerhle did make a mistake. He essentially allowed the other team to score and they didn't only due to an incredible defensive play by Wise. Wood never allowed the Astros to get even remotely close to scoring. His defense only had to handle 8 routine plays. Buerhle needed his defense to come to his aid 21 times and ultimately save his ass from giving up a HR. Breaking it down like that, which is the more dominant singular pitching performance?

The Jury rules in favor of Mojo. Case Closed.

[TripleSkeet]

I dont know. All I know is when they do shows about the most impressive pitching performances ever, most of the time the players will say its Don Drysdales perfect game in the World Series.

[A.J.]

I dont know. All I know is when they do shows about the most impressive pitching performances ever, most of the time the players will say its Don Drysdales perfect game in the World Series.

That's Don Larsen. Were you referring to Drysdale's scoreless innings pitched record?

[TheMojoPin]

This thread was never saying that either of these games were the most dominant pitching performances ever. It wasn't saying that the perfect game is better than the 20 k game in general or vice-versa. It's asking people to compare these two games specifically in terms of which one they think was the better/more dominant pitching performance.

FOLLOW MY RULES OR DIE.

[hammersavage]

So you think Woods' was the most dominate performance ever? That's bold talk...

[TheMojoPin]

I will murder you.

[lleeder]

woods was dominate but the most ever????? oh my that's some arguement there sister!!!!

:ohmy::unsure::blink:

[hammersavage]

I'm gonna say Bobby J. Jones of the NYM 1 hitter against the Giants in game 4 of the 2000 NLDS. Best of all time

[EddieMoscone]

You can throw 20 k's and still lose.

But none of the guys who have struck out 20 ever have. Seriously, if a pitcher ever loses while striking out 20 it will be because his team sucks monkey penis and can't push a couple of runs across the plate. Kind of like the Mets 75% of the time Johan Satana has been on the mound the past 2 years.

Stats from 20 K games:

Wood - 0 runs, 1 hit, 0 BB **** INSANE
Clemens - 1 run, 3 hits, 0 BB
Clemens II - 0 runs, 5 hits, 0 BB
Johnson - 1 run 3 hits, 0 BB

Total = 36 IP, 2 runs, 12 hits, 80 K

Ideal pitchers have low walks, high strikeouts and high ground ball to fly ball ratios. Buerhle doesn't strike out a lot of hitters and for his perfect game the ground outs and fly outs were 50-50 (and most of the time he has more fly outs than ground outs). To me, that is more luck than dominance.

[OGC]

Does anyone think you should take into account who the opponent is in these games ?

I saw both of Clemens' 20k games , the first (which he almost lost) was against Seattle (when they really sucked) and the second was against Detroit late in the season when they were probably playing most of their AAA team.

Woods' 20k game was 2-0, against a good Houston team which was 20-11 coming into the game. The outcome of the game could have changed very quickly so he had to maintain his concentration.

Buerhle pitching a perfect game against Tampa is pretty impressive considering that they were in the world series last year and have a pretty solidl lineup, But the result of the game wasn't really in doubt since the Sox lead by 4 runs in the second.

I would rate these games as

#1 Woods
#2 Buerhle
#3 Clemens vs Seattle
#4 Clemens vs Detroit

Not sure about Johnson's 20 k game because a quick search couldn't find the box score.