Bret Hart vs. Shawn Michaels

[pussyhound]

Alright we all know Shawn Michaels had a better career. Its hard to argue for Bret because his was cut so short and shawn has had some of his greatest matches in the 8 or 9 years since bret was retired. BUT as far as in ring performance goes who put on the best match? I go with Shawn again. I don't know how it will stand up with the test of time but i think that match he had with taker at WM is better than any match him and bret ever had together. It may have even been better than any match bret hart ever had, period. Personally i consider these two the best in ring performers of all time and I think Shawn Michaels takes the cake in a showdown. And anybody that says ric flair is a better in ring performer is fuckin lying to themselves. If you've seen one of his matches you've basically seen them all. His promos were what made him great. Back to the matter. Bret vs. Shawn. What do you guys think?

[SpicyMcHaggis]

I really can't decide. Bret Hart was more of my favorite but I couldn't help but enjoy Shawn Michaels and his style.

[NickyL0885]

HBK hands down is better.

[ScottFromGA]

HBK....Bret Hart....


ehh....its hard to say. Given more time in the E, maybe Bret Hart would have went on and did some tremendous matches and storylines in the Attitude Era.....

but in reality...I'd have to say (pulls out pistol and blows head off).

[K.C.]

I saw them ask this question on one of the big wrestling sites years ago and they basically analyzed Bret's ten best matches vs. Shawn's ten best matches.

The conclusion was that Shawn could basically make anyone look good in the ring (i.e. Nash, Sid), whereas, except for a couple matches with Nash and Yokozuna, Bret really needed another good worker to have good matches.

The difference is basically that Shawn bumps likes crazy, and Bret didn't, but in terms of actual legitimacy (which means nothing in WWE), Bret could have probably killed Shawn because he knew way more stuff.

[epo]

I saw them ask this question on one of the big wrestling sites years ago and they basically analyzed Bret's ten best matches vs. Shawn's ten best matches.

The conclusion was that Shawn could basically make anyone look good in the ring (i.e. Nash, Sid), whereas, except for a couple matches with Nash and Yokozuna, Bret really needed another good worker to have good matches.

The difference is basically that Shawn bumps likes crazy, and Bret didn't, but in terms of actual legitimacy (which means nothing in WWE), Bret could have probably killed Shawn because he knew way more stuff.

Would it be safe to say that HBK is an "entertainer" while Bret is a "wrassler"?

[asayresk]

I think Bret Hart had the better career/legacy. I compare Shawn Michaels to Bret Farve, both guys hung around to long. HBK should of stayed retired after wrestlemania 14.

[styckx]

Is this before or after Bret Hart wrote 20 blogs about how great he is, how he was screwed, how he was a target, how he was treated unfairly, how he was never respected, how he knows everything and everyone else knows nothing.

Just curious.

[falcon95]

shawn michaels is overrated bret heart would still kick his ass then throw him in the sharp shooter.cant beat the heart foundation:clap:

[pussyhound]

I think Bret Hart had the better career/legacy. I compare Shawn Michaels to Bret Farve, both guys hung around to long. HBK should of stayed retired after wrestlemania 14.

Shawn's best matches have been after that. He has been putting people over and working unbelievable non title storylines since he came back. Bret Hart had a few good non title storylines that dominated the show but nothing compared to Shawn. I do agree that Favre is a dickwad though.

[Dash77]

Hbk..

[3Setsof10]

Bret Hart is an overrated same five moves hack who would be a JTTS for life if he didn't have the last name Hart

Flair was always dead on about him

[K.C.]

Bret Hart is an overrated same five moves hack who would be a JTTS for life if he didn't have the last name Hart

Flair was always dead on about him

I thought Bret said the same thing about Flair...that he was the most overrated wrestler ever, and a 'spot wrestler' and that he and Stu used to watch Flair matches and laugh at them.

Styckx is right, he's talked a lot of shit over the years on his blogs.

[asayresk]

I thought Bret said the same thing about Flair...that he was the most overrated wrestler ever, and a 'spot wrestler' and that he and Stu used to watch Flair matches and laugh at them.

Styckx is right, he's talked a lot of shit over the years on his blogs.

Bret is right, Flair is overrated as a wrestler. I dont understand how WWE could make Randy Orton job to Flair, yet Flair can't beat his own son in law who is not a wrestler.

[razorboy]

I hate how he always wears that bandana. Dude, we all know you're bald.

[K.C.]

One other thing to consider is that Bret didn't really break into WWE until he was in his 30s.

He wrestled pretty much his entire 20s in Stampede, where apparently he had ridiculous matches. HBK broke into WWE in his early 20s.

I'd love to see some old tapes from Stampede. They put some clips on the DVD, but no matches. He apparently did an hour with Dynamite Kid that was one of his best matches.

[TjM]

I did like in his book (Bret's) how he would talk about every wrestler telling him they had just witnessed the greatest match ever after every one of his matches

[3Setsof10]

Bret is right, Flair is overrated as a wrestler. I dont understand how WWE could make Randy Orton job to Flair, yet Flair can't beat his own son in law who is not a wrestler.

Please direct yourself to my avatar

Thanks

[hit11man]

Hart is the one who made ALL other wrestlers look good in ring. Hart had the better matches. His stampede matches were better than shawns awa matches. Shawn was a bitch who hated jobbing for anyone. Look at his gay ass chewing gum after being "knocked out" at the end of wrestlemania match with stone cold.

[TripleSkeet]

HBK. And this is why...
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This NEVER gets old by the way.

[zildjian361]

:clap:RVD:clap:

[cougarjake13]

id have to go with hbk

[epo]

HBK. And this is why...
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This NEVER gets old by the way.

As much I as I think that's funny, couldn't that also be used as an argument against Shawn? Its pretty much a selfish dick move that mocked a guy who helped to create the business that made Shawn rich.

[Dirtbag]

As much I as I think that's funny, couldn't that also be used as an argument against Shawn? Its pretty much a selfish dick move that mocked a guy who helped to create the business that made Shawn rich.
And then stuck around 15 years (I'm being generous) past his prime and who's refusal to job made HBK look like Tommy Dreamer or Mick Foley.

[TripleSkeet]

And then stuck around 15 years (I'm being generous) past his prime and who's refusal to job made HBK look like Tommy Dreamer or Mick Foley.

Exactly.

[hit11man]

As much I as I think that's funny, couldn't that also be used as an argument against Shawn? Its pretty much a selfish dick move that mocked a guy who helped to create the business that made Shawn rich.

yes exactly> we are talking about who was the better wrestler. shawn was and maybe is a great athlete. bret was the best wrestler ever. period.

[pussyhound]

yes exactly> we are talking about who was the better wrestler. shawn was and maybe is a great athlete. bret was the best wrestler ever. period.

You agreed with somebody who said shawn made a fool out of hogan for not doing the job. Shawn has did the job for stone cold when it was his turn. He fucking tapped to cena at wrestlemania. He jobbed to bret hart several times before wrestlemania 12 and then they had one other match and that was the screw job. Shawn has jobbed to everyone that deserved it and bret hart wouldn't do the job even when he was leaving the company. I know we're getting off track. We may need to start a Bret screwed Bret thread. The fact is as far as putting on great matches Shawn has done it more than Bret. I'm not saying he did it more often but he did it more. Brets career was short. And as far as great matches go, Brets greatest matches were with Shawn (the one with piper may have been better). I'm not sure I can say the same for Shawn. Hes had some unbelievable matches post-bret hart but they were also with unbelievable workers.

[K.C.]

You agreed with somebody who said shawn made a fool out of hogan for not doing the job. Shawn has did the job for stone cold when it was his turn. He fucking tapped to cena at wrestlemania. He jobbed to bret hart several times before wrestlemania 12 and then they had one other match and that was the screw job. Shawn has jobbed to everyone that deserved it and bret hart wouldn't do the job even when he was leaving the company. I know we're getting off track. We may need to start a Bret screwed Bret thread. The fact is as far as putting on great matches Shawn has done it more than Bret. I'm not saying he did it more often but he did it more. Brets career was short. And as far as great matches go, Brets greatest matches were with Shawn (the one with piper may have been better). I'm not sure I can say the same for Shawn. Hes had some unbelievable matches post-bret hart but they were also with unbelievable workers.

Actually, there was a story behind the whole Stone Cold thing. Apparently, Shawn initially agreed and then decided the night of the event that he wasn't going to do it, and would lose by DQ or something and then vacate the belt the next night on RAW.

As the story goes, Undertaker threatened to basically beat the shit out of him if he didn't do it, and sat behind the curtain the entire match to make sure Shawn didn't pull anything during the match.


Shawn also refused to work a program with Owen Hart after the Survivor Series thing. They had one match on RAW that Owen won by DQ and then he refused to work with him so they had Owen pair up with Triple H for a few months.


As far as Bret goes, if you believe his story, he said it was personal with Shawn. He didn't have a problem dropping the strap and actually suggested losing it to either Austin or Mankind at the time.

And Bret's best matches were actually with Owen, Austin, and Bulldog, although his HBK matches were good. The Survivor Series match was actually shaping up to be better than the Iron Man one, in fact.

[K.C.]

As far as not putting guys over goes, Hogan was by far the worst.

He refused to put over Savage (which is probably the biggest crime), Piper, DiBiase, Flair, Hart, Austin, Michaels, Giant (aka Big Show), DDP, Nash, Hall, Vader, and the list goes on.

He DID put over Warrior, Yokozuna, Goldberg, and The Rock.

Oh, and Billy Kidman beat him one time....yeah...

[CYYYFYYY]

HBK, loved all his matches and his match against Taker at Wrestlemania this year was a great one

[hit11man]

shawn michaels started wrestling 8 years after Bret.. he took a long crybaby break then came back.. why was he gone? cant remember, did he "lose his smile again?" what a fag.
hbk sucks.

[Bob Impact]

Actually, there was a story behind the whole Stone Cold thing. Apparently, Shawn initially agreed and then decided the night of the event that he wasn't going to do it, and would lose by DQ or something and then vacate the belt the next night on RAW.

As the story goes, Undertaker threatened to basically beat the shit out of him if he didn't do it, and sat behind the curtain the entire match to make sure Shawn didn't pull anything during the match.

I'll try to find it but I seem to remember an interview with Taker where he says this isn't true.

[pussyhound]

shawn michaels started wrestling 8 years after Bret.. he took a long crybaby break then came back.. why was he gone? cant remember, did he "lose his smile again?" what a fag.
hbk sucks.

I'm gonna guess you're a bret hart fan judging by your name but watch the casket match hbk had with undertaker at royal rumble '98. He destroyed his back and he still fought through and dropped the strap to stone cold 3 months later. It looked like he almost broke his back on that casket. I don't know if that whole story is true the guy told earlier about stone cold, but he thought his career was over and he came back and his been putting on unbelievable matches since he came back in 2002.

[conman823]

There a a few different factors in wrestling as far a standards go so I'll break down a few (IMO):

Business/Money: Goes to HBK, mostly because his career has been longer and more Marketable in general. HBK stand alone mech is big bucks, plus he shares in the DX merch glory. Hart's sunglasses stink and his shirts are pink.

In ring work: Its close but I'm gonna say HBK because he has put on a good show in a variety of different styles of Matches. It must be mentioned that Hart is by far the more technical wrestler and thats great as long as you have someone good or equal to work with.

Backstage Legacy: Hart, just because even though I think his tears could flood New Orleans again, he had a respect for the business and other wrestlers that HBK just didn't. Not much is know about his actions today, but I would guess HBK is just a quieter douche today.

[pussyhound]

And Bret's best matches were actually with Owen, Austin, and Bulldog, although his HBK matches were good. The Survivor Series match was actually shaping up to be better than the Iron Man one, in fact.

Yea you got me. I think he's had a better match with all three of them then he did with hbk. I guess i'm kind of a homer when it comes to hbk. Owen at Wrestlemania 10 or Bulldog at Summerslam (or Summerfest as jeremy piven would say) '92? I really can't decide on that.

[hit11man]

those were both great. But how about the summerslam when hart beat mr. perfect for the intercontinental belt? that was the match that made me change favorites from perfect to hart. I always wondered why hart and michaels could have a great match, hennig and hart could have a great match, but hennig and michaels never did. (that i know of)

[Bob Impact]

those were both great. But how about the summerslam when hart beat mr. perfect for the intercontinental belt? that was the match that made me change favorites from perfect to hart. I always wondered why hart and michaels could have a great match, hennig and hart could have a great match, but hennig and michaels never did. (that i know of)

Street fight during the early days of Raw, don't remember if it was a fight or just a reasonably memorable moment.

[pussyhound]

those were both great. But how about the summerslam when hart beat mr. perfect for the intercontinental belt? that was the match that made me change favorites from perfect to hart. I always wondered why hart and michaels could have a great match, hennig and hart could have a great match, but hennig and michaels never did. (that i know of)

Shit. You're really backing making me remember things now. Alright. I'll say this. If HBK hadn't come back after his injury i would give the nod to bret hart. That mr. perfect fight was good. I get angry everytime i think about the storylines we didn't get out of hennig and rick rude that we should have.

[Bob Impact]

Shit. You're really backing making me remember things now. Alright. I'll say this. If HBK hadn't come back after his injury i would give the nod to bret hart. That mr. perfect fight was good. I get angry everytime i think about the storylines we didn't get out of hennig and rick rude that we should have.

This. HBK had some awesome matches post comeback, look at Wrestlemania alone:

19: vs Jericho
20: vs HHH & Benoit
21: vs Kurt Angle
22: vs Vince McMahon
23: vs Cena
24: vs Flair
25: vs. Undertaker

[pussyhound]

yea thats what i'm sayin. if he hadn't come back after the injury bret hart would have had a better career but thanks to those matches plus a lot of other ones he had the better career.

[hit11man]

Sure, fine. But hart would have had just as good or better matches inall you u just listed.

[hit11man]

Totally agree about rude and perect. Both should have had world titles. (In rudes case more- I know he had WCW title)

[Bob Impact]

Sure, fine. But hart would have had just as good or better matches inall you u just listed.

Really?
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Not even close with a much younger Flair. Bret Hart was great, I was a fan, but seriously.

[hit11man]

Flair?? Give me a break- at least hbk is arguable

[Bob Impact]

This. HBK had some awesome matches post comeback, look at Wrestlemania alone:

19: vs Jericho
20: vs HHH & Benoit
21: vs Kurt Angle
22: vs Vince McMahon
23: vs Cena
24: vs Flair
25: vs. Undertaker

Sure, fine. But hart would have had just as good or better matches inall you u just listed.

Really?
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Not even close with a much younger Flair. Bret Hart was great, I was a fan, but seriously.

I think you missed my point.

[hit11man]

oh, couldnt see that video posted from phone; i like that match a lot..but flair always pretty limited in my opinion. you cannot compare two wrestlers by looking at flair matches.. by the way, not sure i can even talk wrestling with you since you actually named a cena match as a good match.-was that a joke?

[Bob Impact]

oh, couldnt see that video posted from phone; i like that match a lot..but flair always pretty limited in my opinion. you cannot compare two wrestlers by looking at flair matches.. by the way, not sure i can even talk wrestling with you since you actually named a cena match as a good match.-was that a joke?

For what Cena can do it was... there's a distinction between a good match and a great one... I'm also not saying that HBK/McMahon was a mat classic, but for the stories those matches needed to tell they were good.

[pussyhound]

See my argument against brets career having the longevity of hbk's. Bret was never the athlete Shawn Michaels was. His body wasn't built the same and he was never able to sustain the type of bumps that shawn could. The only time hart would even go top rope is for the victory roll, not to say that makes a good wrestler, but I think that it says a lot more about athletic ability. I think Bret's body would have broken down and he would have not been able to be on the road like hbk has done for a few years now. I think he would have been in a role that really didn't even allow him to hold a title at this age, where he just came back and worked a feud and disappeared at this time. Where as Shawn Michaels could feasibly come back on monday and win the title at summerslam and there isn't a fan who would question it. I might even go as far as saying that HBK's prime was after his injury. And on a side note, do you think bret hart refused to lay down for hogan and thats why there was that fucked up finish at WM IX?

[hit11man]

I've never heard that, never thought of it either. I've always hated that finish. I watched it on ppv and could never understand that even back then. Hart always said that hogan wouldn't drop it to him. Like hogan wouldn't drop it much or even do programs with certain people. I'm pretty biased for hart. Just think he was the best all around wrestler. I know michaels was great too

[pussyhound]

Yea, I think what i originally heard though was vince was scared to do a wrestlemania without hogan in the main event and bret was just a casualty of that. I guess I just kinda made that up in my head, but I think I'm going to believe it so it makes hbk not look like such a backstage political asshole like everybody plays him up to be. But really for being so political and coming back and not holding the title I think at all, it says a lot. Has he held it since he came back in '02? I can't remember.

[hit11man]

i dont know- havent watched a lot since around then..i think the only stuff i saw or heard about near good regarding michaels since coming back was hbk,hhh, and benoit, angle matches, and the undertaker match(s).
Any and all rumors or backstage stories about michaels all made him out to be a selfish, backstabbing, pussy-crybaby. That and the screwjob and him swearing to God and lying on camera, just makes me hate him to this day

[conman823]

Has he held it since he came back in '02? I can't remember.

Yes.

Twice if I'm not mistaken.

[cougarjake13]

Yea, I think what i originally heard though was vince was scared to do a wrestlemania without hogan in the main event and bret was just a casualty of that. I guess I just kinda made that up in my head, but I think I'm going to believe it so it makes hbk not look like such a backstage political asshole like everybody plays him up to be. But really for being so political and coming back and not holding the title I think at all, it says a lot. Has he held it since he came back in '02? I can't remember.

actually it was only the one time and that was only for a month before he dropped it back to trips

[hit11man]

Hbk- as much as I hate him has always been good.. How come in wwe the only good wrestlers now and any time relatively lately have been undertaker and hbk? (Considering others are gone:benoit, angle, etc.)-oh ill say jericho is good too. I do like bigshow, kane, and I'm sure a few others but wwe is just unwatchable. I took a look at the first few min of raw this week and wanted to vomit.

[conman823]

Nothing is natural anymore. (I know its scripted but if your a fan you know what I mean.)
HBK has kinda always walked the "shade of grey" between Heel and Face most of his career. That has a entertaining quality to it because that how most REAL people are. Same with SCSA.

Hart's heel turn just seemed forced. And when he was with the Hart Foundation he was really quite most of the time because Anvil was so loud.

Whatever goes out over the air today is just shit, Stephanie should be picked up and thrown into a reactor shaft.

[lleeder]

you won't be entertained 3 weeks from now when this is still going on

[hit11man]

reactor shaft!? i like that. is stephanie really in that much control? anyway i agree about scsa totally, bret was good at whatever-really a better face i think, a good heel with neidhart at the beginning of the foundation. while hbk was only and i mean ONLY an ok face while still young and with jannetty. if anyone liked him as face after that- they have to be female or homosexual-not theres anything wrong with that...just that its the worst thing you can say about a person

[pussyhound]

HBK's first title run was pretty faggy. I will definitely give that to you. Undertaker is fuckin awesome. Anybody who says anything bad about the taker is a dickwad. You'd like to say the act is tired but i really think that when he returns its just as badass as when he did back when it was undertaker vs. undertaker. Taker has been a main eventer for longer than anyone and he's taken some breaks but nothing compared to hbk or triple h.

[sailor]

seriously, was anyone surprised he was doing cocaine?

[TripleSkeet]

HBK's first title run was pretty faggy. I will definitely give that to you. Undertaker is fuckin awesome. Anybody who says anything bad about the taker is a dickwad. You'd like to say the act is tired but i really think that when he returns its just as badass as when he did back when it was undertaker vs. undertaker. Taker has been a main eventer for longer than anyone and he's taken some breaks but nothing compared to hbk or triple h.

My only problem with The Undertaker is he works a TNA like schedule. 4 days on, 25 days off, and so on. I mean I understand how hard the grind is, but its getting to almost Hogan levels where he takes most of the year off only to show for big PPV's and the checks that come with them.

[hit11man]

He's pretty damn old with bad knees. Its amazing he wrestles at all. He's in great shape. For his age and. How long he's been going. Retirement has to bve coming soon

[pussyhound]

My only problem with The Undertaker is he works a TNA like schedule. 4 days on, 25 days off, and so on. I mean I understand how hard the grind is, but its getting to almost Hogan levels where he takes most of the year off only to show for big PPV's and the checks that come with them.

I understand what you're saying, but really he's old. He's been in some crazy matches (even though he was usually the one doing the ass kicking) and he's paid his dues more than anyone else I can think of off the top of my head in WWE. I'm not saying he deserves it, but if anybody does its the taker. He's been around since '92 and he never even hinted at leaving. Never "retired" and has worked some really shitty angles with some really shitty wrestlers and he always delivers. I'd rather have the undertaker once a month as opposed to no taker at all. But I'd also like to add I'd like to see triple h get his shit together and let taker come back and have one more badass title run on raw. Maybe a legitimate hbk vs. taker feud that really closes out both their careers on a high note. It doesn't matter who would win it because you know neither one of them care. We could get a string of 5 unbelievable matches from those 2 and i really think it could rejuvenate ratings. I know if HBK vs. Taker was happening at a pay per view i would buy it. It doesn't even have to be immediate. HBK could win it and be winning regularly and Taker show up on Raw and just play small head games with Shawn for 3 months before we actually do this thing leading up to a rematch at wrestlemania or even hbk costing taker his streak at wrestlemania and them finishing it at summerslam. I just think that a long drawn out feud that would have happened fifteen years ago would do justice to two of the greatest most loyal careers in wwe history and not only that I think it would bring back in old fans as well as showing new fans how wrestling is suppose to be and how it could be so much better. There's two things i despise in wwe these days and thats quick title changes that cheapen a title reign (kinda like triple h's 13 (?) title reigns) and lack of development of the ic title. Some of the greatest feuds of all time were ic title feuds. Its like triple A for WWE. I guess I kinda ranted here and maybe even needed to start a new thread but fuck it. hit11man and whoever else has been in on this are people i'd like to bullshit with on this subject.

[zildjian361]

so who while where young:wallbash:

[pussyhound]

so who while where young:wallbash:

i don't get what you're asking. i was talking about the undertaker. Why is it so bad to leave a long post?

[hit11man]

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