Ron and Fez and the Iraq War

[spainlinx0]

I have been listening to the WJFK shows in February of 2003 during the runup to the Iraq war. It's pretty interesting to hear how gungho the callers were about going to war. You heard all the popular buzzwords for people who called in against the war. They are emboldening Saddam and the terrorists. Iraq is a clear and present danger to our country. Seems every caller wanted to make Iraq a parking lot as we heard many times. I don't know why you would park there, but I'm sure it's a clever idea.

Right now I'm listening to a very calm well-spoken veteran who was against the war and a guest of the show. He made his points well, interacted well with Ron and Fez, (Fez really grilled him back in his Republican days), and the callers are calling in infuriated basically calling this guy a terrorist. It's actually pretty frustrating to hear how wrong these people were in hindsight. Well, wrong if you don't currently believe invading Iraq was a necessary and prudent action.

Where were you at that in your opinion? Be honest. Would you have been an angry war caller, or a dirty hippie?

[shittles]

Iraq is very close to being a fully functioning democracy, far more than Afghanistan. Though it was a rocky start thanks to how much Saddam has destroyed the will of the Iraqi people but the war was and is a success.

[spainlinx0]

Oh is it? So have we paid off the war costs with Iraqi oil yet? Heard that said a few times as well. Looking now, was it really necessary to set up a "democracy" there?

[IMSlacker]

Board characters are best used in small doses.

[mikeyboy]

Board characters are best used in small doses.

yep

[Rockvillejoe]

I It's actually pretty frustrating to hear how wrong these people were in hindsight. Well, wrong if you don't currently believe invading Iraq was a necessary and prudent action.




Where were you at that in your opinion? Be honest. Would you have been an angry war caller, or a dirty hippie?

Me: angry war caller. although i never suggested they blow up the entire country.

i was one of those callers somewhere during that period. your reference to: "hindsight" is a significant point. we all bought into the reported "facts" that hussein was harboring WMD's. even congress and other nations. don't forget.

in addition, i remember making the point to mr. b that hussein had killed 500,000 to 1,000,000 of his own people.

mr b had no comeback to this fact, but stayed strong in his conviction that it was an unjust war.

at the time i chalked his intractability to him being a kool aid liberal. the oppositie of a limbaugh ditto-head. i still believe that to a certain extent. in this case, he was absolutely spot on.

most of us were apparently duped. but were we?

as far as the outcome, it is premature to credit or blame the bush administration.

yes, premature. let's see if they can permamently somehow carve out a civilized, relatively progressive form of co-existing in iraq. at least they have the opportunity now.

if that turns out to be a case, then guess what? all of those american lives we lost were not in vein. bush's legacy becomes a positive.

because if there is a foothold of sanity and common sense in that region permanently established, then hopefully it will flourish and we will all be the safer.

a big if, granted.

[Dude!]

Board characters are best used in small doses.

i don't understand

it was a thoughtful post
and an excellent topic

why that response?

[mikeyboy]

i don't understand

it was a thoughtful post
and an excellent topic

why that response?

He's not talking about the original poster.

[IMSlacker]

i don't understand

Sorry.

Board characters
are best used
in small doses.

Better?

[spainlinx0]

Me: angry war caller. although i never suggested they blow up the entire country.

i was one of those callers somewhere during that period. your reference to: "hindsight" is a significant point. we all bought into the reported "facts" that hussein was harboring WMD's. even congress and other nations. don't forget.

in addition, i remember making the point to mr. b that hussein had killed 500,000 to 1,000,000 of his own people.

mr b had no comeback to this fact, but stayed strong in his conviction that it was an unjust war.

at the time i chalked his intractability to him being a kool aid liberal. the oppositie of a limbaugh ditto-head. i still believe that to a certain extent. in this case, he was absolutely spot on.

most of us were apparently duped. but were we?

as far as the outcome, it is premature to credit or blame the bush administration.

yes, premature. let's see if they can permamently somehow carve out a civilized, relatively progressive form of co-existing in iraq. at least they have the opportunity now.

if that turns out to be a case, then guess what? all of those american lives we lost were not in vein. bush's legacy becomes a positive.

because if there is a foothold of sanity and common sense in that region permanently established, then hopefully it will flourish and we will all be the safer.

a big if, granted.

Well we didn't all buy into the arguments they made. Most yes, I believe war approval was around 2/3 of the country.

What I was really pointing to was the absolute delight in the possibility of getting to "kill some arabs" that many people called in with. It was just striking hearing the absolute rush to get the inspectors out and just start invading that was interesting to listen to.

People were so eager to get in, and never even considered the nationbuilding thing at all. Mostly it was just kill Saddam and we're done.

Also not all nations bought into it. There was a significant amount of anti-French (and who can blame them, they are French after all) and anti-German callers calling them cowards and accomplices. It was especially scary the amount of callers referring to antiwar people as traitors. I remember that being the case, but I forgot just how much of that there actually was.

If we get a stable, secular, American interest friendly democracy there (a big IF considering our country's history in setting up friendly governments of countries like this) I think the war ends up being a net positive, but I don't believe it makes Bush look better. I believe his legacy has been sealed. He is going to be seen as someone who wanted a war with Iraq, for whatever reasons you want to attribute to him (and if you say to liberate a people I would consider that lying to yourself), and would not be reasoned with. His administration will not be looked upon favorably.

[lleeder]

Me: angry war caller. although i never suggested they blow up the entire country.

i was one of those callers somewhere during that period. your reference to: "hindsight" is a significant point. we all bought into the reported "facts" that hussein was harboring WMD's. even congress and other nations. don't forget.

in addition, i remember making the point to mr. b that hussein had killed 500,000 to 1,000,000 of his own people.

mr b had no comeback to this fact, but stayed strong in his conviction that it was an unjust war.

at the time i chalked his intractability to him being a kool aid liberal. the oppositie of a limbaugh ditto-head. i still believe that to a certain extent. in this case, he was absolutely spot on.

most of us were apparently duped. but were we?

as far as the outcome, it is premature to credit or blame the bush administration.

yes, premature. let's see if they can permamently somehow carve out a civilized, relatively progressive form of co-existing in iraq. at least they have the opportunity now.

if that turns out to be a case, then guess what? all of those american lives we lost were not in vein. bush's legacy becomes a positive.

because if there is a foothold of sanity and common sense in that region permanently established, then hopefully it will flourish and we will all be the safer.

a big if, granted.

what did mrs rockville think?

[mikeyboy]

what did mrs rockville think?

Where are those prank calls, Matt?

[Rockvillejoe]

what did mrs rockville think?

hahaha. she's busy making me my midday meal.

[lleeder]

Where are those prank calls, Matt?

What do you mean? I made like 3 this week

[ShowerBench]

The cost so far is nearing a trillion.

Saddam, not a Muslim fanatic unless it paid more, would have taken a fraction of that to deal with Iran.

Stupid, expensive war. I was with the hippies all along. Bill Clinton said during the transition he told Bush the most important threat is bin Laden and al Qaeda, but Bush kept going back to "Iraq Iraq Iraq" like Rainman.

[Rockvillejoe]

Powerbench: Clinton had a chance to take out osama with a drone. He pussied out. I like Clinton but the man has a forked tongue.

[ImNotGvac]

Powerbench: Clinton had a chance to take out osama with a drone. He pussied out. I like Clinton but the man has a forked tongue.

not really "pussied out" (http://www.helenair.com/news/national/article_1808a3b2-1a4d-59d7-a1c9-f3210fbbdc11.html)

[Serpico1103]

most of us were apparently duped. but were we?
if that turns out to be a case, then guess what? all of those american lives we lost were not in vein. bush's legacy becomes a positive.
because if there is a foothold of sanity and common sense in that region permanently established, then hopefully it will flourish and we will all be the safer.
a big if, granted.
Yes, we were lied to. If you believed the lies, you were duped. The lies do not become truths because Iraq may or may not become a legitimate democracy.

What real threat has the Middle East ever posed the US? Our intervention only propagates our image as imperialists. So, even a successful democracy in Iraq, unlikely, will have negative repercussions.

[DarkHippie]

guess which side i was on

[keithy_19]

guess which side i was on

The side that was correct?


See what I did there. I'm nifty.

[Serpico1103]

guess which side i was on

The pro-french fry side?

[Old Gravy Leg]

Put me up as pro french fry. I prefer fresh compaired to frozen though.

and catchup too.


I have tried Mayo,sorry I cant hang with that.

[Rockvillejoe]

Yes, we were lied to. If you believed the lies, you were duped. The lies do not become truths because Iraq may or may not become a legitimate democracy.

What real threat has the Middle East ever posed the US? Our intervention only propagates our image as imperialists. So, even a successful democracy in Iraq, unlikely, will have negative repercussions.

I can't argue the fact that being duped does not justify any positive outcome as a result of trickery.

the important question is who duped us and why?

did cheney and rumsfeld create this scenario, or was the CIA just making an honest mistake?

It mitigates the reasons why many of us were pro Bush, in wanting to take out what appeared to be a major problem.

As far as what US's actions "propagate" whatever image, this is not as important to me as much as what US's actions actually succeed in achieving. at the time, something had to be done. or so we thought.

appeasement did not work in the 1940's. Appeasing potential present day thug govenments like hussiens will not work either.

it's easy to bash the united states when it falls upon it's shoulders to do the dirty work for the rest of the world.

who is really protesting our actions? other than people with their own agendas.
only the have nots resent us for our superior way of life as far as i can tell. we do so much good in this world that on balance the world would be a significantly more dangerous and unhealthy place if not for our magnanimous approach. a trillion dollars in aid instead of war would have been the better course of actionin the short term, but unfortunately we don't live in a utopian soceity where humans get along. that's reality.

i will grant you that cheney and rumsfelds' arrogance and obvious manipulation of the president that they served was unconscounable. to the point of treason if they are proved to have actually created this scenario for personal gain. but i don't believe this to be the case.

lets not forget the context of that time period: fresh from 9-11, "guaranteed" assurances of WMD's, (powell and pelosi on board for this, as well as biden).

at the time, bush's actions seemed not only justified, but to be the only we could avoid more towers being knocked down with innocent lives lost. it was a weird time. easy to sit back now and criticize, but back then a different ball game. you and ronnie b were right on this one. but hopefully the collective world community will be a safer place as a result of our actions.

[yojimbo7248]

Powerbench: Clinton had a chance to take out osama with a drone. He pussied out. I like Clinton but the man has a forked tongue.

who are you, Tonto? "I travel many moons to see Great White Leader who speaks with forked tongue"

[yojimbo7248]

What real threat has the Middle East ever posed the US? Our intervention only propagates our image as imperialists. So, even a successful democracy in Iraq, unlikely, will have negative repercussions.

Not to mention the billions and billions of dollars. I get frustrated with right wingers who bitch about the cost of domestic problems but act as though money comes from Lord Jesus like mana from heaven when we launch these Middle East wars.

[Furtherman]

I remember the night the war first started and had no idea why we were bombing Baghdad. I still have no idea why. I never trusted Bush. The man just wasn't qualified to make those decisions.

[GregoryJoseph]

I wonder if history will tell a different story about the Iraq War.

[SatCam]

even ronfez.net's own Carter was going to enlist to fight the good fight

[DarkHippie]

The pro-french fry side?

I'm actually more of an onion ring man

O-rings FTW!!

[rick9669]

i believed the president at the time..i never voted for Bush , but at the time i believed in the war...however as time went on and i heard less and less about Afghanistan and less about WMD's and more about the people in iraq and there freedom...i began to turn ..i never cared about iraq and its freedom i just wanted to be safe..i am opposed the iraq war but i do believe we need to be in Afghanistan now after years of wasting time and resources in iraq . walking away from Afghanistan now would be a terrible mistake. i know i sound like a pro war guy but trust me i'm not...:down:

[DarkHippie]

I remember the night the war first started and had no idea why we were bombing Baghdad. I still have no idea why. I never trusted Bush. The man just wasn't qualified to make those decisions.

to be fair, i don't think there have ever been a person alive with the qualifications to send people off to war. Yet sometimes we have to make do and hope that it doesn't blow up in our face

[Furtherman]

to be fair, i don't think there have ever been a person alive with the qualifications to send people off to war. Yet sometimes we have to make do and hope that it doesn't blow up in our face

True. But that great speech that he gave on the graves of the WTC, and I even felt for it, and thought the ones who killed our friends and family would hear from us... But they didn't. Now they are, but it should have been sooner.

[epo]

I remember being at a pub with co-workers the night the war started. Most people were cheering and happy, yet I didn't say a word. Someone in that company with a bigger title asked me what I thought, and I declined.

The same person pressed me and I told them "you won't like my answer". With a little more pressing I told them how horrible of an idea I thought the war was and I left the establishment as to not create a stir. I kinda got treated like shit at work for a couple of months after that, but the irony was time justified my opinions and I gained alot of respect from many of those people.

I still wish for the sake of the nation that I was wrong.

[TheGameHHH]

I wonder if history will tell a different story about the Iraq War.

me too. by the time we're all dead and gone it's going to be a totally different story like all wars this country has fought, just or not.

i was originally pro war but i blame that on propaganda. after educating myself i became anti war. not in a pacifist way, just to the second Iraq war.

[Rockvillejoe]

Hello llleeder,

It's mrs Rockvillejoe. Au chaun te. That's French. Thanks for asking for my opinion but I leave those "man" issues up to my man, RJ. He is so smart! And I'll tell you why! We live in the DC area. As a result, RJ has important discussions with congessional representatives.

For example, rep barney frank comes over all the time usually after 11. They go down the basement and have quite lively discusiions on politics. Just the other night I heard barney say to RJ,"on my face" I guess it had to do with Iraq. I wish barney would bring his wife but he says she's always busy in some place called fantasyland.

RJ is soooiooooo politically smart and hobnobs with all the VIP's

Ok. EU is calling me. He needs a kotex reoplacement on his bloody rectum. The poor boy accidently sat on a wine bottle. Imagine that! He us so macho he didn't even complain.
TTFN

[GregoryJoseph]

My personal feelings are that the real reason we invaded Iraq was because the US felt it needed a stronghold in the Middle East, and that was the easiest place to sell the public on invading.

Maybe history will reveal that having our military there helped to stabilize the area.

Maybe not.

[Dude!]

I remember being at a pub with co-workers the night the war started. Most people were cheering and happy, yet I didn't say a word. Someone in that company with a bigger title asked me what I thought, and I declined.

The same person pressed me and I told them "you won't like my answer". With a little more pressing I told them how horrible of an idea I thought the war was and I left the establishment as to not create a stir. I kinda got treated like shit at work for a couple of months after that, but the irony was time justified my opinions and I gained alot of respect from many of those people.

I still wish for the sake of the nation that I was wrong.

geez
just nail yourself to a cross already

[A.J.]

My personal feelings are that the real reason we invaded Iraq was because the US felt it needed a stronghold in the Middle East, and that was the easiest place to sell the public on invading.

Yeah, but we already had/have a military presence in nearly every Gulf country.

[spainlinx0]

Still listening and have a few more observations. People are calling in and seriously saying we should go to war with France for not supporting us. I can't count how many callers called this war payback for 9/11 and tried to sell the "he's a bad guy, it's not for oil routine." The silencing of any war critics is in full effect with traitor talk. It actually is making it hard for me to listen to the show. Ron is remarkably passive, and simply letting the callers say what they want, and barely ever challenging them. He does bring up some good questions, but you can sense hesitation to really make these people sell their points.

By the way I still think it's funny that one of the main selling points of so many callers for attacking Iraq was that he kept violating UN Resolutions. So their answer is to violate the wishes of the UN by attacking Iraq. I had forgotten how vitriolic the war talk was back then. By the way the show I'm currently listening to is after Bush gave his 48 hour deadline to Hussein so the hawks are flying high.