The battle for the heart of the Republican Party

[epo]

I've long talked about how all political parties are unnatural marriages. Currently the troubles of the Republican Party are evidenced by the battle between the moderates and the teabaggers. It is truly a battle for the soul of the party.

Under that context, in New York - 23, the race for the House of Representatives saw a shocking development today:

Republican Scozzafava Halts Campaign (http://news.aol.com/article/dierdre-scozzafava-halts-house-campaign/721887)
House Race in New York Seen as Bellwether for GOP

Republican Dierdre Scozzafava has suspended her campaign for the New York House and is encouraging supporters to embrace Conservative Party nominee Doug Hoffman.

Campaign spokesman Matt Burns says she thinks dropping out of the 23rd Congressional District race is in the best interests of the party.

The announcement comes after a Siena College poll found she was in third place with 20 percent of the vote in the heavily Republican district, while Hoffman and Democratic nominee Bill Owens were too close to call with 35 percent and 36 percent, respectively.

The race has pitted conservative and moderate wings of the Republican Party against each other. Hoffman has been backed by prominent Republicans like former vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin.

This obviously seems to give the more conservative wing of the party more traction. Is this the beginning of the war within the party, or is this the end of moderates having a home within the Republican Party?

[tanless1]

Really epo ? One of your inteligence refering to the conservatives of the conservative party w/ an intentionaly deragatory reference to teabagging. Better is expected of you. If you'd like to have an honest discourse I'm not oppesed to participating. But if your just looking for an opportunity to sand bag, I've got better things to do.

[A.J.]

An hope an Independent like Joe Lieberman wins that seat.

[epo]

Really epo ? One of your inteligence refering to the conservatives of the conservative party w/ an intentionaly deragatory reference to teabagging. Better is expected of you. If you'd like to have an honest discourse I'm not oppesed to participating. But if your just looking for an opportunity to sand bag, I've got better things to do.

Are you denying that the internal battle is between the McCain/Graham moderate wing and the Palin/Malkin conservative wing? And furthermore what does this do to current moderates and/or moderate conservative voters?

As a partisan democrat, I'm completely intrigued by it.

[A.J.]

Are you denying that the internal battle is between the McCain/Graham moderate wing and the Palin/Malkin conservative wing? And furthermore what does this do to current moderates and/or moderate conservative voters?

As a partisan democrat, I'm completely intrigued by it.

Please: McCain and Graham are hardly moderates. Now if you had said the Snowe/Collins wing...

But really, there's a Democratic supermajority that can't pass legislation unilaterally. Wouldn't you say that there's more of an internal battle there between the Progressive Caucus wing and the Blue Dog wing?

[brettmojo]

I found it. She has it...

http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/9784/templeofdoomflaminghear.jpg

[A.J.]

I found the heart. She has it...

http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/9784/templeofdoomflaminghear.jpg

I thought those were testicles.

[pennington]

As Tip O'Neill used to say, all politics is local. I wouldn't read too much into this.

[tanless1]

Now epo, you aren't interested...you are gleeful. Let's look at mcain. Mcain/kennedy
Mcain/fiengold....these aren't moderate bills. And grahm is not a moderate either. You do understand that many conservatives did not vote for mccain for president for this reason. Voting the lesser of 2 evils has put this nation and constitution in a precariuos position.

Now let's consider those republicans that voted for yes tarp w/o reading the bill. Do we consider them moderates or elected represinatives/public trust that aren't doing their job ?

[tanless1]

...you should be equaly disturbed that your party didn't read it either. These bills are being written by 3rd partys w/that being said, we should all have time to deciminate / digest .
...one of obahmas campaign promises was that these bills wld be posted for 5? Days on the web for america to read...that's not happening. And health care 1900+ pages ?

....I think the bills should be thrown out...and no for ammendments that don't pertain to the actual bills.

...I don't blame you epo. I think steven king referd to them as " breakers". The work they do is so intoxicating they don't understand the ramifacations.
....again, I'm willing to talk w/you... but if your just looking to sandbag, most of us have better things to do. Do know that this is both of our problem.

[S0S]

a __ meme is that somehow the conservatives are split in 2.

Sometimes the ptb in both parties just pick a wrong candidate. Someone who doesn't have enough of the core principles of a specific party. someone who stands for very little.

[HBox]

And health care 1900+ pages ?

Yes. It's a fairly complicated issue.

[epo]

Please: McCain and Graham are hardly moderates. Now if you had said the Snowe/Collins wing...

But really, there's a Democratic supermajority that can't pass legislation unilaterally. Wouldn't you say that there's more of an internal battle there between the Progressive Caucus wing and the Blue Dog wing?

Fair enough on the McCain/Graham point. I should've said the Snowe/Collins/formerly-Specter wing...

As for the issues with the Democratic Party...I point to the Senate and the leadership of Senator Reid. That guy has been given a filibuster-proof life and still can't get things done properly.

[epo]

And if today's announcement is a signal of a larger tide in the Republican Party, what does that mean for Charlie Crist vs. Marco Rubio in Florida?

[HBox]

And if today's announcement is a signal of a larger tide in the Republican Party, what does that mean for Charlie Crist vs. Marco Rubio in Florida?

Charlie Crist is way too popular to lose that. But I heartily encourage the conservatives to try.

[high fly]

I've long talked about how all political parties are unnatural marriages. Currently the troubles of the Republican Party are evidenced by the battle between the moderates and the teabaggers. It is truly a battle for the soul of the party.

Under that context, in New York - 23, the race for the House of Representatives saw a shocking development today:

Republican Scozzafava Halts Campaign (http://news.aol.com/article/dierdre-scozzafava-halts-house-campaign/721887)
House Race in New York Seen as Bellwether for GOP



This obviously seems to give the more conservative wing of the party more traction. Is this the beginning of the war within the party, or is this the end of moderates having a home within the Republican Party?




I don't see it as the beginning of any war. I think the Taliban wing took over a long time ago and are not going to give up control. They are zealots, suicidal zealots and will destroy the party rather than sacrifice what they perceive as their "core values".
They have already lost so many moderate Republicans and independents the GOP is threatening to be a regional, rather than a national party. The Taliban wing is fine with this and continues to encourage those not in goose-stepping jackbooted lockstep with the extremists to leave.

What the Democrats need to do is find new issues to attract these moderates and to find other issues where the Taliban wing has a more shrill reaction.

Moderate Republicans need to see they are not going to get their party back because the zealots who have seized control are not about cooperation or compromise in pursuit of larger goals...

[A.J.]

As for the issues with the Democratic Party...I point to the Senate and the leadership of Senator Reid. That guy has been given a filibuster-proof life and still can't get things done properly.

He's as impotent as a Nevada Boxing Comissioner.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I believe people have had it with the country club types like Newt, McCain, and Graham to be specific. The biggest damage to the GOP was Bush and a majority in both houses. As a libertarian I have some conservative views when it comes to entitlements & spending. On issues like drug legalization, I am moderate on that

I believe when many people hear conservative they think "bible thumper" thats certainly not me. The Palins and Huckabees do more harm than good

[Syd]

I believe people have had it with the country club types like Newt, McCain, and Graham to be specific. The biggest damage to the GOP was Bush and a majority in both houses. As a libertarian I have some conservative views when it comes to entitlements & spending. On issues like drug legalization, I am moderate on that

I believe when many people hear conservative they think "bible thumper" thats certainly not me. The Palins and Huckabees do more harm than good

GOP lost its way some time ago - it's hard to put your finger on the last truly conservative president but you'd have to go back to the turn of the century and look at Teddy Roosevelt probably.

[HBox]

I believe people have had it with the country club types like Newt, McCain, and Graham to be specific. The biggest damage to the GOP was Bush and a majority in both houses. As a libertarian I have some conservative views when it comes to entitlements & spending. On issues like drug legalization, I am moderate on that

I believe when many people hear conservative they think "bible thumper" thats certainly not me. The Palins and Huckabees do more harm than good

There was enough in what you just said to get the exact treatment Scozzafaza got. These people are demanding complete ideological loyalty and would not abide your social stances.

[underdog]

Now epo, you aren't interested...you are gleeful. Let's look at mcain. Mcain/kennedy
Mcain/fiengold....these aren't moderate bills. And grahm is not a moderate either. You do understand that many conservatives did not vote for mccain for president for this reason. Voting the lesser of 2 evils has put this nation and constitution in a precariuos position.

Now let's consider those republicans that voted for yes tarp w/o reading the bill. Do we consider them moderates or elected represinatives/public trust that aren't doing their job ?

Who would you consider a moderate conservative?

[underdog]

I believe when many people hear conservative they think "bible thumper" thats certainly not me.

That's exactly what most people think.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

If the GOP wants to remain relevant or make some sort of comeback, the Crists, McCains and Palins need to go. If there was a young Goldwater type out there he might get a lot of support. HBO had a good documentary about Goldwater called Mr Conservative, however in many ways he defied the traditional "ways of thinking" like calling out the religious right and his favor for gays in the military

[tanless1]

Bobby jingle ?is that his name ? Seems like a keep your head down and get the job done kindof guy. Wld like to know more.
The spending from both sides is ridiculous.
Just because sombody votes across a party line does not a moderate make. What do they believe ? Why are we hearing more og mao than washington or jefferson ? Why are we hearing what a stand up guy and hero castro is ...or that chavez really knows how to run a country. This love affair with communists is disturbing.

Again ill refer to 3rd party bill authorship and niether side reading or allowed to read let alone suffiecent time to digest...and still voting yes upon the tacit promise they'll be supported on another issue or in an ellection.

I don't expect you to agree w/my take....I do hope you'll look beyond us / them at what is really goin on.

Pls keep in mind, conservative refers to the size and scope of govt...not where your stickn your dick, or stickn in your vein.

[HBox]

What do they believe ? Why are we hearing more og mao than washington or jefferson ? Why are we hearing what a stand up guy and hero castro is ...or that chavez really knows how to run a country. This love affair with communists is disturbing.

What the hell are you talking about?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

What the hell are you talking about?

I think Tanless is refering to Anita Dunn, Valerie Jarrett and Van Jones

[keithy_19]

It's been stated before, but I think you could say the same thing with the Democratic party. They control congress and can't seem to get anything done. You would think they would be able to.

I really don't think that the direction Obama wants to take the country is the way that the majority of Americans want it to go.

[HBox]

I think Tanless is refering to Anita Dunn, Valerie Jarrett and Van Jones

Oh yeah, how could I forget those monoliths of power and influence.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

It's been stated before, but I think you could say the same thing with the Democratic party. They control congress and can't seem to get anything done. You would think they would be able to.

I really don't think that the direction Obama wants to take the country is the way that the majority of Americans want it to go.

The proof is with this whole healthcare debacle. Many Blue dogs are not on the same page as Pelosi and Reid

Saying that, A lot of Democrats are blue collar workers ie factory workers for example. What do they have in common with the Boxers, Schumers and other establishment Dems?

[HBox]

The proof is with this whole healthcare debacle. Many Blue dogs are not on the same page as Pelosi and Reid

Saying that, A lot of Democrats are blue collar workers ie factory workers for example. What do they have in common with the Boxers, Schumers and other establishment Dems?

The last time those kinds of people voted for someone they thought they shared something in common with they got George W. Bush.

[keithy_19]

The last time those kinds of people voted for someone they thought they shared something in common with they got George W. Bush.

So they have more in common with GWB than BHO. Fair enough.

[tanless1]

The last time those kinds of people voted for someone they thought they shared something in common with they got George W. Bush.
I'm not sure that is acurate. I feel they were really voting against a guy w/ 3 purple hearts yet maintaned all of his limbs and then found out he also wrote his own recomendations for the awards.

....if. kerry had downplayed those awards that he essentialy received for scraches, it may have been a different story.

[tanless1]

That's the problem, we aren't voting for people... we are voting against others. That's another reason I didn't and many others didn't

[tanless1]

Oh yeah, how could I forget those monoliths of power and influence.
... isn't vallarie jarret the chief of staff ? I could be wrong. And van jones is also the proponet of using climate laws as the chief means of achieving social justice ? Yes. Van jones has been absord into move on . Org
Doesn't seem he moved to far away- these are the people that obama surronds him self. They have his ear, please don't poo poo their involvment or the importance of their poximitey.

[underdog]

I'm not sure that is acurate. I feel they were really voting against a guy w/ 3 purple hearts yet maintaned all of his limbs and then found out he also wrote his own recomendations for the awards.

....if. kerry had downplayed those awards that he essentialy received for scraches, it may have been a different story.

I get what you're saying. Soldiers are pussies! I'm glad we finally have someone to stand up and say what we all think.

FUCK YOU TROOPS!

[Ritalin]

... isn't vallarie jarret the chief of staff ? I could be wrong. And van jones is also the proponet of using climate laws as the chief means of achieving social justice ? Yes. Van jones has been absord into move on . Org
Doesn't seem he moved to far away- these are the people that obama surronds him self. They have his ear, please don't poo poo their involvment or the importance of their poximitey.

And THIS is the heart of the Republic party.

They just got finished running the duly elected/selected Republic nominee for Congress off a ballot - I don't know if they chose their nominee by ballot or party board selection - and wind up barking Fox talking points about people of little significance.

He forgot to mention Acorn though. I'm sure Acorn has something to do with this somehow.

This bores me and my ilk.

[HBox]

... isn't vallarie jarret the chief of staff ? I could be wrong. And van jones is also the proponet of using climate laws as the chief means of achieving social justice ? Yes. Van jones has been absord into move on . Org
Doesn't seem he moved to far away- these are the people that obama surronds him self. They have his ear, please don't poo poo their involvment or the importance of their poximitey.

Chief of Staff is Rahm Emanuel. Jarrett is a senior advisor.

But this poring over everything someone has ever written or said to confirm paranoid suspicions is a tiring and useless exercise. And we have a perfect test case for just how much people care. Bob McDonnell is currently running for Governor of Virginia. During the campaign his senior thesis surfaced with some extremist Christian views, especially regarding women and gays. People care so much McDonnell is about to be elected in a landslide.

[HBox]

And THIS is the heart of the Republic party.

They just got finished running the duly elected/selected Republic nominee for Congress off a ballot - I don't know if they chose their nominee by ballot or party board selection - and wind up barking Fox talking points about people of little significance.

He forgot to mention Acorn though. I'm sure Acorn has something to do with this somehow.

This bores me and my ilk.

It's a special election so the candidates were chosen by the party. They misread the mood of their base by a tad.

[tanless1]

I get what you're saying. Soldiers are pussies! I'm glad we finally have someone to stand up and say what we all think.

FUCK YOU TROOPS!

That is not what I said , and you are intentionaly missrepresenting my text-
..let's keep it straight and we may get somewhere.....unless you'd like to just digress to name calling....if that's the case, I do have better things to do.

[underdog]

That is not what I said , and you are intentionaly missrepresenting my text-
..let's keep it straight and we may get somewhere.....unless you'd like to just digress to name calling....if that's the case, I do have better things to do.

Oh, so we just hate liberal soldiers? I'm just trying to stick with the party line.

Fucking show off with his purple hearts he didn't deserve! Boo!

[tanless1]

Chief of Staff is Rahm Emanuel. Jarrett is a senior advisor.

But this poring over everything someone has ever written or said to confirm paranoid suspicions is a tiring and useless exercise. And we have a perfect test case for just how much people care. Bob McDonnell is currently running for Governor of Virginia. During the campaign his senior thesis surfaced with some extremist Christian views, especially regarding women and gays. People care so much McDonnell is about to be elected in a landslide.

I thought rahm wa chief of staff, thankyou for correcting.
I'm not familiar w/ mcconell. What's going on there ?
I heard newt talking the other day and I disagreed w/him "to just support the party line" . Both these partys have lost their way...I just don't know what to say, but this " us and them" mentality is going to wreck us. Are we so far apart that we believe the republic should be reformed ? Or that it would be better to bankrupt us so we'd be forced to rewrite the constitution ? Would a chinese style democracy be more palitable to you ?
....the russians were speaking highly of it the other day.
...I'm ready to repeat earlier posts re: unread bills , and that we are in this together....unless of course you believe the china style democracy wld be best for us...if that's the case then you are lost and would be a poor investment of my time.
We have somthing precious here and we give and give and give it away and then blame the otherside....and I do mean both partys. There was an article regarding this in pravda a few moths back....and I believe they'd know a little bit about giving and losing freedoms.

[tanless1]

Oh, so we just hate liberal soldiers? I'm just trying to stick with the party line.

Fucking show off with his purple hearts he didn't deserve! Boo!

...yes , stiches do not merrit a purple heart, nor does smashing your finger w/ a hammer when you were fixing your desk in the typing pool. You do understand the point. Wounded and in the mash unit plugged into an I.v.....now were talking purple heart.
...got to get back to work, will come back later so you can continue the lashing.
...but please stay focused on what is really going on in congress and not get lossed on responses regarding past elections.

[furie]

i would really love to see a split in the GOP, and have true conservatives form their own party and let the religious right keep the republican party.

----------------
Now playing: The Cars - Stranger Eyes (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/the+cars/track/stranger+eyes)
via FoxyTunes (http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/)

[underdog]

...yes , stiches do not merrit a purple heart, nor does smashing your finger w/ a hammer when you were fixing your desk in the typing pool. You do understand the point. Wounded and in the mash unit plugged into an I.v.....now were talking purple heart.
...got to get back to work, will come back later so you can continue the lashing.
...but please stay focused on what is really going on in congress and not get lossed on responses regarding past elections.

I just don't understand people like you trashing a soldier because he didn't get wounded enough.

If he was a conservative, you wouldn't have shit to say about it.

Also, I enjoy you mentioning staying focused on what is really going on when YOU BROUGHT IT UP IN THE FIRST PLACE.

[HBox]

I thought rahm wa chief of staff, thankyou for correcting.
I'm not familiar w/ mcconell. What's going on there ?
I heard newt talking the other day and I disagreed w/him "to just support the party line" . Both these partys have lost their way...I just don't know what to say, but this " us and them" mentality is going to wreck us. Are we so far apart that we believe the republic should be reformed ? Or that it would be better to bankrupt us so we'd be forced to rewrite the constitution ? Would a chinese style democracy be more palitable to you ?
....the russians were speaking highly of it the other day.
...I'm ready to repeat earlier posts re: unread bills , and that we are in this together....unless of course you believe the china style democracy wld be best for us...if that's the case then you are lost and would be a poor investment of my time.
We have somthing precious here and we give and give and give it away and then blame the otherside....and I do mean both partys. There was an article regarding this in pravda a few moths back....and I believe they'd know a little bit about giving and losing freedoms.

A bit about McDonnell here. (http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2009/08/virginia-republican-bob-mcdonnell-distances-himself-from-grad-school-thesis-.html)

As first reported by the Washington Post on Sunday, McDonnell's thesis, which was written when he was 34, depicts feminism as an enemy to the traditional family; says government policy should benefit married couples over "cohabitators, homosexuals, or fornicators”; and criticizes a Supreme Court decision establishing a legal right to contraception for unmarried couples. Read McDonnell's full thesis here.

And here's how the race is shaping up:

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[hanso]

We have somthing precious here and we give and give and give it away and then blame the otherside....and I do mean both partys.

I don't remember any give to the other side in the last administration.

Nor do I hear anyone applaud this one for at least giving that effort.

[boosterp]

...yes , stiches do not merrit a purple heart, nor does smashing your finger w/ a hammer when you were fixing your desk in the typing pool. You do understand the point. Wounded and in the mash unit plugged into an I.v.....now were talking purple heart.
...got to get back to work, will come back later so you can continue the lashing.
...but please stay focused on what is really going on in congress and not get lossed on responses regarding past elections.

I had a squad leader who during the first gulf war sprained his ankle playing volleyball and got the purple heart. At that time he was a reservist and his commander needed a star (my opinion). Yes it occurred in a war zone but was not the result of combat. He did not deserve it.

Kerry deserved one of his purple hearts, the other 2 I question.

But the rules of the award allow for such "interpretation."

[tanless1]

Also, I enjoy you mentioning staying focused on what is really going on when YOU BROUGHT IT UP IN THE FIRST PLACE.
The context that. Kerry was brought up in was in reference to how bush got ellected to a 2nd term, and how voters were not really voting for bush as much as they were voting against kerry....do you see that and how you took advantage of a trigger point to digress off topic.

Listen I'm not talking to " people like you "
I'm talking w/ you. If you'd rather embace the passion..... that's up to you. I am willing to talk. I don't expect it to be pleasnt, and I don't often participate I political threads as they so often turn into dem/rep when both sides have gotten away from their values....and they've got us so busy fighting eachother and conditioned to follow the trigger point gammit that they get away w/ (insert bullshit). its not your fault, but we need (you/me) to gain the ability to see the trigger points for what they are......we are not enimies, we are not opponets either. We've got real issues

[angrymissy]

So, tanless, when did you serve? I mean, to be saying who should and shouldn't get a purple heart, you must have seen combat right?

My Grandfather got 2 in WW2. He would have kicked your ass if you told him he didn't deserve one of them becuase it was for shrapnel.

Do some reading rather than reciting those horrible smears against a VETERAN of our Country during that election.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/service.asp

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I dont know too much about Rubio but Crist is another hack, Hes basically McCain with a bad orange suntan

[tanless1]

I expect no less from you missy, lead w/ anger. Try reading it again and see what I said. I did attempt to serve but had collapsed a lung, then when I could go in , I had a pretty large meth addiction so they wouldn't have wanted me....wish I could of kicked it. No, he wouldn't of kicked my ass as I'm sure you gradfather was a decent human being and having served in ww2 as did my grandfather. His crew would have refused a purple heart for perhaps smashing a finger in the cafateria.... as opposed doing his god awful best to get his 3 (in 4 months) so he could get back home. Men of your grandfathers ilk lied about their age to get in......
...I would not fault any one for doing what theycould to get home as soon as they could.....ever. you really need to read the rest of the thread....you would then see that the kerry reference (again) was regarding how people were voting against somone rather than for bush, how w/ the right canidate you/we would have only had 4 years bush.
...we are doing our god awful best to keep this civil. I know obama told you to get in peoples faces..... this isn't right/left. This is about niether side reading these gigantic bill w/o reading them ,and how our public servants are failing us while we fight among ourselves

[tanless1]

I don't remember any give to the other side in the last administration.

Nor do I hear anyone applaud this one for at least giving that effort.

I'm sorry, I don't quite sure what you speak to here, pls expound...

....are you speaking to the patriot act ? ... seemed like we gave some rights away w/ that . Please remind me how though....and I do mean that, please remind me, i m only able to recall the warrantless wire taps...

[tanless1]

A bit about McDonnell here. (http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2009/08/virginia-republican-bob-mcdonnell-distances-himself-from-grad-school-thesis-.html)


And here's how the race is shaping up:

Thank you for that, the chart didn't show up for me, but I do appreciate the effort.

IMO there are 2 kinds of feminism. 1) is manhaters, the kind that you observe when you hangin out at the coffee clutch w/ your favorite group of lesbians ( 5 - 20 group size) the banter is designed to keep the fringe of the group in line and bolster the troops....chant the mantra,boost moral.
2) is womens rights, adressing honest issues/grievances... lower pay, equal rights..

...I still don't know enough to comment directly . Is he distancing to gain a sector vote ? Did he get stupid in his thesis ? ... does his voting record support one way or the other ?

....I can't recall anything christi done to impress me... hasn't he mostly played his career for votes rather than conviction ?

[landarch]

i would really love to see a split in the GOP, and have true conservatives form their own party and let the religious right keep the republican party.

----------------
Now playing: The Cars - Stranger Eyes (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/the+cars/track/stranger+eyes)
via FoxyTunes (http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/)

Thank you. It is then and only then that I could vote conservative again, and maybe not be so conflicted about this country and its politics.

[tanless1]

....This is about niether side reading these gigantic bill w/o reading them ......

Couldn't let this slide by. I know I'm not much of a writer and relegated to thumbs on the cellphone, but THAT is just awful...

[A.J.]

I had a squad leader who during the first gulf war sprained his ankle playing volleyball and got the purple heart. At that time he was a reservist and his commander needed a star (my opinion). Yes it occurred in a war zone but was not the result of combat. He did not deserve it.

Was his name Frank Burns?

[angrymissy]

I expect no less from you missy, lead w/ anger. Try reading it again and see what I said. I did attempt to serve but had collapsed a lung, then when I could go in , I had a pretty large meth addiction so they wouldn't have wanted me....wish I could of kicked it. No, he wouldn't of kicked my ass as I'm sure you gradfather was a decent human being and having served in ww2 as did my grandfather. His crew would have refused a purple heart for perhaps smashing a finger in the cafateria.... as opposed doing his god awful best to get his 3 (in 4 months) so he could get back home. Men of your grandfathers ilk lied about their age to get in......
...I would not fault any one for doing what theycould to get home as soon as they could.....ever. you really need to read the rest of the thread....you would then see that the kerry reference (again) was regarding how people were voting against somone rather than for bush, how w/ the right canidate you/we would have only had 4 years bush.
...we are doing our god awful best to keep this civil. I know obama told you to get in peoples faces..... this isn't right/left. This is about niether side reading these gigantic bill w/o reading them ,and how our public servants are failing us while we fight among ourselves

I'll lead with anger when someone attacks a veteran who served under fire in a war simply because he was a liberal, you'd be damned sure of that.

You think Kerry "did his best to get 3 to get sent home"???? I guess he just ran into the path of shrapnel, eh?

Obama doesn't tell me to do shit. I do what I like. I have no respect for anyone who talks shit on anyone who honorably served for this country - I'll leave it at that.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I don't see it as the beginning of any war. I think the Taliban wing took over a long time ago and are not going to give up control. They are zealots, suicidal zealots and will destroy the party rather than sacrifice what they perceive as their "core values".
They have already lost so many moderate Republicans and independents the GOP is threatening to be a regional, rather than a national party. The Taliban wing is fine with this and continues to encourage those not in goose-stepping jackbooted lockstep with the extremists to leave.

What the Democrats need to do is find new issues to attract these moderates and to find other issues where the Taliban wing has a more shrill reaction.

Moderate Republicans need to see they are not going to get their party back because the zealots who have seized control are not about cooperation or compromise in pursuit of larger goals...


While I agree that extreme Christian views like the earth is 6000 years old are looney, However I wouldnt compare a bunch of evangelicals to the taliban. The Falwells and 700 club types have some weird views but comparing them to 7th century maniacs who believe that you should beat a woman senseless for showing her ankles in public doesnt weigh heavily

As far as Phelps and the WBC What started out as shock and disbelief when they made national attention a few years ago, they are nothing more than a sideshow act and a bunch of media whores

[A.J.]

While I agree that extreme Christian views like the earth is 6000 years old are looney, However I wouldnt compare a bunch of evangelicals to the taliban. The Falwells and 700 club types have some weird views but comparing them to 7th century maniacs who believe that you should beat a woman senseless for showing her ankles in public doesnt weigh heavily

No, but there are evangelicals who use the Bible to justify hatred of gays and keeping the races separate. So they have their own intolerance going for them....which is nice.

[tanless1]

I'll lead with anger when someone attacks a veteran who served under fire in a war simply because he was a liberal, you'd be damned sure of that.

You think Kerry "did his best to get 3 to get sent home"???? I guess he just ran into the path of shrapnel, eh?

Obama doesn't tell me to do shit. I do what I like. I have no respect for anyone who talks shit on anyone who honorably served for this country - I'll leave it at that.

Do you even know what we are talking about, or are you just taking advantage of a trigger point. Did the context of " voting against some one as opposed to voting for another" elude you ? I don't think it did as you aren't a slow girl. You are however a good example of what we've been discussing here. Please, take the time to review as you are coming into the conversation late.
I'm going to try to link to chuck wagon and see what he's cookn....
If we are just going to toss anger at each other, I won't participate. If you'd like to remain in context , I'm more than willing to continue the conversation.

[underdog]

Do you even know what we are talking about, or are you just taking advantage of a trigger point. Did the context of " voting against some one as opposed to voting for another" elude you ? I don't think it did as you aren't a slow girl. You are however a good example of what we've been discussing here. Please, take the time to review as you are coming into the conversation late.
I'm going to try to link to chuck wagon and see what he's cookn....
If we are just going to toss anger at each other, I won't participate. If you'd like to remain in context , I'm more than willing to continue the conversation.

You trashed a veteran, and now you're acting like you didn't, or it's everyone else that has the problem.

The problem with the debate is you. You trashed the man for no reason, other than he was a liberal. Stop acting like you want an honest debate.

[tanless1]

The last time those kinds of people voted for someone they thought they shared something in common with they got George W. Bush.

Here is the post the kerry comment is in reference to. The example is the public voting against kerry more than they are voting for bush. The reference to his awards being questionable is the reason why the public voted against kerry.
If you'd like to use this as an opportunity to derail, nothing I can do will stop that.
I must say that I have very much enjoyed this thread and the civility it maintained.
I don't expect us to agree....the fact remains : these bills are getting passed and niether side is reading them, they are failing the public charge/trust while we just bicker amungst ourselves, just the way they like it.

[boosterp]

Was his name Frank Burns?

Frank was his first name but Burns was not the last name. He was an aweful squad leader too.

[KatPw]

GOP lost its way some time ago - it's hard to put your finger on the last truly conservative president but you'd have to go back to the turn of the century and look at Teddy Roosevelt probably.

Roosevelt would be seen as a liberal/progressive in the current light of the GOP.

[KatPw]

...yes , stiches do not merrit a purple heart, nor does smashing your finger w/ a hammer when you were fixing your desk in the typing pool. You do understand the point. Wounded and in the mash unit plugged into an I.v.....now were talking purple heart.
...got to get back to work, will come back later so you can continue the lashing.
...but please stay focused on what is really going on in congress and not get lossed on responses regarding past elections.

What are you talking about?
During the night of December 2, 1968 and early morning of December 3, 1968, Kerry was in charge of a small boat operating near a peninsula north of Cam Ranh Bay together with a Swift boat (PCF-60). According to Kerry and the two crewmen who accompanied him that night, Patrick Runyon and William Zaladonis, they surprised a group of men unloading sampans at a river crossing, who began running and failed to obey an order to stop. As the men fled, Kerry and his crew opened fire on the sampans and destroyed them, then rapidly left. During this encounter, Kerry received a minor wound in the left arm above the elbow. It was for this injury that Kerry received his first Purple Heart
That doesn't sound like a typing pool to me.

Kerry received his second Purple Heart for a wound received in action on the Bo De River on February 20, 1969. The plan had been for the Swift boats to be accompanied by support helicopters. On the way up the Bo De, however, the helicopters were attacked. They returned to their base to refuel and were unable to return to the mission for several hours.
As the Swift boats reached the Cua Lon River, Kerry's boat was hit by a RPG round, and a piece of shrapnel hit Kerry's left leg, wounding him. Thereafter, they had no more trouble, and reached the Gulf of Thailand safely. Kerry still has shrapnel in his left thigh because the doctors tending to him decided to remove the damaged tissue and close the wound with sutures rather than make a wide opening to remove the shrapnel.[22] Kerry received his second Purple Heart for this injury, but like several others wounded earlier that day, he did not lose any time off from duty
That doesn't sound like a typing pool accident either.

Factcheck.org article regarding the Swiftboat ad campaign:
http://www.factcheck.org/article231.html

[KatPw]

While I agree that extreme Christian views like the earth is 6000 years old are looney, However I wouldnt compare a bunch of evangelicals to the taliban. The Falwells and 700 club types have some weird views but comparing them to 7th century maniacs who believe that you should beat a woman senseless for showing her ankles in public doesnt weigh heavily

As far as Phelps and the WBC What started out as shock and disbelief when they made national attention a few years ago, they are nothing more than a sideshow act and a bunch of media whores

How are they unlike the Taliban? They want laws enacted based on their religious beliefs. They keep insisting we are a Christian Nation, when in reality we are a secular Nation with many Christian citizens. I think trying to bend the will of all American people to your way of life and beliefs is exactly the same as the Taliban. I guess since the Christian Fundamentalists aren't pushing for women to wear Burkas it's all well and good.

[tanless1]

Allright , the thread is officaliy of the rails. I never said that kerry got a purple heart for smashing his finger in the typing pool. I did however say that one would be eligible for the award by such action.
Which one of those purple hearts was for runing his boat aground putting his entire crew at risk and shooting his 50 cal recklessly causing the fragment of rock chip to graze his shoulder calling for a few stiches.... am I missremebering that one ?
....and let's not forget all the veterans he lied about accusing them of war crimes and knowingly walking into villages and shooting innocents.
....or the winters soilders who's tales he told as his own, only the gentelmens story he used had never been over there ?

...again,kerry is not the issue. it is only an example of people voting against kerry , not nessacerly wanting bush.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

How are they unlike the Taliban? They want laws enacted based on their religious beliefs. They keep insisting we are a Christian Nation, when in reality we are a secular Nation with many Christian citizens. I think trying to bend the will of all American people to your way of life and beliefs is exactly the same as the Taliban. I guess since the Christian Fundamentalists aren't pushing for women to wear Burkas it's all well and good.

I dont disagree with some of your arguements. I certainly don't want a theocracy, Bush started this Whitehouse office of faith based initiatives and Obama is continuing this. This has no place in Government. Thats why there was a 1st ammendment which forbids an official state religion As far as comparing them to the taliban I will believe it when I see it when Bill Donaghue calls for stoning people in public, chopping hands off of people for robbery or honor killings. How much influence does he really have? I don't believe people are going to cancel their HBO because Larry Davids urine happened to splash on Jesus. Their arent any people threating to kill HBO management or call for Larry Davids head. When there was the cartoon of Mohammed witht a bomb in his turbin the Muslim world went ballistic. There was also an incident that ruffled their panties when a teacher in Darfur named a Teddy Bear mohammed.

I am aware that there are some nutbars who bomb abortion clinics and that should be known and pointed out but thats no comparison to the thousands of terrorist attacks in the name of Jihad because they are non believers

[hanso]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Kerry_military_service_controversy

[IMSlacker]

Allright , the thread is officaliy of the rails. I never said that kerry got a purple heart for smashing his finger in the typing pool. I did however say that one would be eligible for the award by such action.

No, one wouldn't.

[tanless1]

No, one wouldn't.
Sure they would , classified as wartime injury. Most wouldn't claim it.

[TheMojoPin]

I dont disagree with some of your arguements. I certainly don't want a theocracy, Bush started this Whitehouse office of faith based initiatives and Obama is continuing this. This has no place in Government. Thats why there was a 1st ammendment which forbids an official state religion As far as comparing them to the taliban I will believe it when I see it when Bill Donaghue calls for stoning people in public, chopping hands off of people for robbery or honor killings. How much influence does he really have? I don't believe people are going to cancel their HBO because Larry Davids urine happened to splash on Jesus. Their arent any people threating to kill HBO management or call for Larry Davids head. When there was the cartoon of Mohammed witht a bomb in his turbin the Muslim world went ballistic. There was also an incident that ruffled their panties when a teacher in Darfur named a Teddy Bear mohammed.

I am aware that there are some nutbars who bomb abortion clinics and that should be known and pointed out but thats no comparison to the thousands of terrorist attacks in the name of Jihad because they are non believers

Seperate rungs on the same ladder.

And quite a few of the comments in regards to Larry David that we've seen linked here from a numer of sources seem to indicate that a disconcerting number of people who consider themselves "good Christians" would have no problem seeing David hurt or killed or "destroyed" simply because of his TV show. We're just seeing intolerance and hatred in the name religion at different points on the same spectrum, and it shows how easily we can slide into the world that you continually decry and desperately want to be seen as nothing like Christianity. We have seen Christianity acts as Islam often does today many, many times over the course of history. We see many Christians now praying for ill will or far worse to befall those who do not share their beliefs. We see many Christians wishing for their moral perogative based on their faith and scriptures to be made into law and be reflected explicitly by their leaders. That's a relatively short hop, skp and a jump to the theocratic Islamic societies that you are so terrified of. Just because one religion isn't "as bad" as another right now doesn't mean the tables can't easily be turned. You're basically arguing that since one set of intolerance isn't as bad as another at this moment, well, the two can't possibly be compared. Why not? Why should we accept intolerance and smallmindedness simply because it isn't as bad as it could be?

[tanless1]

Well peeps, it has been a pleasure...i's gots to get rollin to bakersfield. One of you may be needing a new matrice and I've got bales of cotton fresh of the farm.

[Serpico1103]

Sure they would , classified as wartime injury. Most wouldn't claim it.

"Enemy-related injuries which justify the award of the Purple Heart include injury caused by enemy bullet, shrapnel, or other projectile created by enemy action; injury caused by enemy placed land mine, naval mine, or trap; injury caused by enemy released chemical, biological, or nuclear agent; injury caused by vehicle or aircraft accident resulting from enemy fire; concussion injuries caused as a result of enemy generated explosions.

Injuries or wounds which do not qualify for award of the Purple Heart include frostbite or trench foot injuries; heat stroke; food poisoning not caused by enemy agents; chemical, biological, or nuclear agents not released by the enemy; battle fatigue; disease not directly caused by enemy agents; accidents, to include explosive, aircraft, vehicular, and other accidental wounding not related to or caused by enemy action; self-inflicted wounds (e.g., a soldier accidentally fires their own gun and the bullet strikes their leg), except when in the heat of battle, and not involving gross negligence; post-traumatic stress disorders;[5] and jump injuries not caused by enemy action."

Unless the enemy was using the typewriter as a weapon, or had booby trapped it, no, you would not qualify.

[tanless1]

Suppose one falls on his pencil in a rush to the teletype to retrieve a report regarding enemy movement.... would that qualify ?

...again, I understand you are responding to a trigger point. The example of the nation voting against one person rather than actually voting for another canidate.
....but how does this actually relate to the bills congress is pushing through forcing votes on legislation that is being written by 3rd partys w/o being read ?

[Serpico1103]

Suppose one falls on his pencil in a rush to the teletype to retrieve a report regarding enemy movement.... would that qualify ?



No, it would not qualify.
For the most part, the wounds must either be at the enemy's hand or some accidents in the heat of battle.
Someone in the typing pool does not qualify as "in the heat of battle."

[epo]

NY-23: Scozzafava Endorses Owens (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/thefix/house/ny-23-scozzafava-endorses-owen.html)

State Assemblywoman Dede Scozzafava (R), who dropped from the special election in Upstate New York yesterday, has now thrown her support to Democrat Bill Owens.

"It's not in the cards for me to be your representative, but I strongly believe Bill is the only candidate who can build upon John McHugh's lasting legacy in the U.S. Congress," said Scozzafava in a statement released moments ago.

Owens said he was "honored" to have won Scozzafava's endorsement, noting: "Now more than ever we need bipartisan solutions to help bring jobs to Upstate New York to get our economy back on track and move our country forward."

It's not clear how much Scozzafava's backing of Owens will change the race. Democratic strategists, who just 48 hours ago saw the race moving back in their direction, have grown pessimistic about their chances in the aftermath of the Scozzafava decision.

The war is just starting within the Republican Party!

[pennington]

The war is just starting within the Republican Party!

I don't see this as a war.

Scozzafava was chosen as the candidate by the party leaders because, I heard, she had the best name recognition. She also has one of the most liberal voting records in the NY state Assembly. So the NY Conservative Party decided to run it's own candidate. Scozzafava's endorsement of the Democratic candidate just confirms the Conservative Party's decision.

This is a local issue. NY has a Conservative Party, and a Liberal Party, besides the Democrats and Republicans. I don't foresee a national Conservative Party.

[hanso]

I'm sorry, I don't quite sure what you speak to here, pls expound...

....are you speaking to the patriot act ? ... seemed like we gave some rights away w/ that . Please remind me how though....and I do mean that, please remind me, i m only able to recall the warrantless wire taps...

Bipartisanship

[HBox]

I don't see this as a war.

Scozzafava was chosen as the candidate by the party leaders because, I heard, she had the best name recognition. She also has one of the most liberal voting records in the NY state Assembly. So the NY Conservative Party decided to run it's own candidate. Scozzafava's endorsement of the Democratic candidate just confirms the Conservative Party's decision.

This is a local issue. NY has a Conservative Party, and a Liberal Party, besides the Democrats and Republicans. I don't foresee a national Conservative Party.

It's a local issue and yet Hoffman and his supporters say it isn't. Hoffman doesn't live in the district and showed a lot of ignorance towards local issues during the campaign. He and his supporters dismissed such concerns.

Read more about that here. (http://www.watertowndailytimes.com/article/20091023/OPINION01/310239957/-1/OPINION)

I'm not surprised Scozzafava is lashing out in this way. The party selects her and then all of a sudden a bunch of high-profile Republicans are campaigning against her.

[tanless1]

Bipartisanship
...I'm going to have to go back in the thread and re-read. We've gotten a bit lost w/ using kerry as an example of americans voting against one canidate, more than they are voting for the choice they really want. Be it the product of truth, or percieved truth being inconsequentail to the point.

[tanless1]

Bipartisanship
.

[boosterp]

Sure they would , classified as wartime injury. Most wouldn't claim it.

It is not up to the wounded individual. If I was wounded in Baghdad today by shrapnel but continued to fight after bandaging myself up I could say no I do not want the Heart but it's not up to me. The men who were there with me, the squad or platoon leader make the recommendation and it goes through channels. It is not something that is heavily investigated. I could find out 3 months after that I was awarded the Heart after forgetting about the initial injury.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

If the Democratic candidate wins, it will make history, I saw on the news that this particular district has sont sent a Dem to DC since the civil war

[HBox]

If the Democratic candidate wins, it will make history, I saw on the news that this particular district has sont sent a Dem to DC since the civil war

That's true but it wouldn't be as big an upset as that seems. Obama took that district 52-47. Whether it's always close or they trend Republican on local issues or the demographics are changing I do not know.

[Freakshow]

A heart? As Republicans, we don't actually have those. So this isn't a big deal at all...

[hanso]

.

You wrote one side gives to the other.
I took that to mean Bipartisanship.

And that is why I posted what I did.


Why do you keep writing about the bill (health care I take it)
not being read? Where do you hear this?
When I see clips of the concessions on the hill. The members always phrase a section from the bill to make their points. So they must be reading it.

[tanless1]

You wrote one side gives to the other.
I took that to mean Bipartisanship.

And that is why I posted what I did.


Why do you keep writing about the bill (health care I take it)
not being read? Where do you hear this?
When I see clips of the concessions on the hill. The members always phrase a section from the bill to make their points. So they must be reading it.
Tarp was not read fully and neither was cap and trade w/ 500 pages of ammendments being registerd in the last hour before the vote. I think the dems brought in a speed reader in to say the bill had been read, but no one was afforded time to truely read and digest...let alone the 5 days posted on the web we were promised by obahma.
...so when I really am refering to bill's.
I suspect healh care will be the same.

[tanless1]

It is not up to the wounded individual. If I was wounded in Baghdad today by shrapnel but continued to fight after bandaging myself up I could say no I do not want the Heart but it's not up to me. The men who were there with me, the squad or platoon leader make the recommendation and it goes through channels. It is not something that is heavily investigated. I could find out 3 months after that I was awarded the Heart after forgetting about the initial injury.

Thanks booster. I do appreciate that.

[epo]

In a sick way, NY-23 is a win-win for the Democratic Party:

If Owens wins, they get to claim another seat and momentum.

If Hoffman wins, the more extreme elements of the Republican Party are emboldened and start challenging moderate republicans in primaries throughout the country.

[high fly]

It is not up to the wounded individual. If I was wounded in Baghdad today by shrapnel but continued to fight after bandaging myself up I could say no I do not want the Heart but it's not up to me. The men who were there with me, the squad or platoon leader make the recommendation and it goes through channels. It is not something that is heavily investigated. I could find out 3 months after that I was awarded the Heart after forgetting about the initial injury.


Bob Dole got a Purple Heart for wounds he sustained after a hand grenade he threw hit tree branches overhead and the thing exploded near him.
That said, I do not like the business of questioning someone's medals...

On the other hand, I am glad for the work of guys like Stolen Valor author "Jugs" Burkett who has exposed a number of chaps wearing medals they did not earn and capitalizing on them....

[high fly]

In a sick way, NY-23 is a win-win for the Democratic Party:

If Owens wins, they get to claim another seat and momentum.

If Hoffman wins, the more extreme elements of the Republican Party are emboldened and start challenging moderate republicans in primaries throughout the country.


Yeah, I see it as a win for the Democrats either way.
What the Democrats need is for the Taliban wing of the GOP to continue to consolidate its grip on the party so it appeals to an even smaller portion of the electorate.
The more the far right has control over the Republican Party, the more it becomes a regional party and less of a national one...

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Yeah, I see it as a win for the Democrats either way.
What the Democrats need is for the Taliban wing of the GOP to continue to consolidate its grip on the party so it appeals to an even smaller portion of the electorate.
The more the far right has control over the Republican Party, the more it becomes a regional party and less of a national one...

If the Republicans have the "Taliban" wing as their extremes do the Democrats have the "America hating pot smoking welfare receiving lazy wing?"

Call out the evangelicals for what they are, I agree they do more to hurt the GOP but they are far from being the Taliban

[underdog]

"America hating pot smoking welfare receiving lazy wing?"

I really don't think that group exists.

[badmonkey]

I really don't think that group exists.

They do, they're just too lazy to organize.

[TheMojoPin]

But the parties they throw are amazing.

[underdog]

They do, they're just too lazy to organize.

But the parties they throw are amazing.

I think it's where Chris Tanley has been for the last two weeks.

[SinA]

Bob Dole got a Purple Heart for wounds he sustained after a hand grenade he threw hit tree branches overhead and the thing exploded near him.
That said, I do not like the business of questioning someone's medals...

On the other hand, I am glad for the work of guys like Stolen Valor author "Jugs" Burkett who has exposed a number of chaps wearing medals they did not earn and capitalizing on them....

It is not up to the wounded individual. If I was wounded in Baghdad today by shrapnel but continued to fight after bandaging myself up I could say no I do not want the Heart but it's not up to me. The men who were there with me, the squad or platoon leader make the recommendation and it goes through channels. It is not something that is heavily investigated. I could find out 3 months after that I was awarded the Heart after forgetting about the initial injury.

my grandfather got banged up in vietnam when the hotel he was in got blown up by a suicide bomber that rode into the lobby on a motorcycle.

he said he probably would have gotten a purple heart if he let them take him to the hospital, but he couldn't go because he had a situation to take care of because the goddamn hotel just got blown up.

[Dude!]

he said he probably would have gotten a purple heart if he let them take him to the hospital, but he couldn't go because he had a situation to take care of because the goddamn hotel just got blown up.

damn
they could have at least
awarded him something...
like the yellow moon or
orange star or green clover

[hanso]

my grandfather got banged up in vietnam when the hotel he was in got blown up by a suicide bomber that rode into the lobby on a motorcycle.

he said he probably would have gotten a purple heart if he let them take him to the hospital, but he couldn't go because he had a situation to take care of because the goddamn hotel just got blown up.

This sounds like a Dave Rabbit story.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_First_Termer

[SonOfSmeagol]

The war is just starting within the Republican Party!
In a sick way, NY-23 is a win-win for the Democratic Party:


Not so sure about that. Scozzafava ultimately endorsing the Dem candidate probably means she was more aligned with the Dems to begin with. That’s unusual because in general Conservatives and Reps will be closer aligned with each other than either one with Dems – when it comes to general contests. i.e., in general Conservatives and Reps will unite to counter Dem candidates.

Kind of analogous to the situation last year with HRC and BHO on the Dem side fighting it out but ultimately coming together against the Reps with a larger turnout than if any one of them had emerged stronger, earlier. Also, this particular race is probably not very indicative of anything that can be generalized nationally. If anything this type of thing may activate more “right leaning” voters that will ultimately NOT be voting for the Dem candidates. But who knows…

[Syd]

Not so sure about that. Scozzafava ultimately endorsing the Dem candidate probably means she was more aligned with the Dems to begin with.

Hoffman is basically only running because the PBA hates Scozzafava for not playing ball. He's not so much a Republican as he is a weapon launched against the GOP.

[TheMojoPin]

Kind of analogous to the situation last year with HRC and BHO on the Dem side fighting it out but ultimately coming together against the Reps with a larger turnout than if any one of them had emerged stronger, earlier.

There's little, if any, ideological difference between Clinton and Obama.

[Dude!]

There's little, if any, ideological difference between Clinton and Obama.

the difference there
was just race
she went after
hardworking people...
white people

[ope]

Kind of analogous to the situation last year with HRC and BHO on the Dem side fighting it out but ultimately coming together against the Reps with a larger turnout than if any one of them had emerged stronger, earlier. Also, this particular race is probably not very indicative of anything that can be generalized nationally. If anything this type of thing may activate more “right leaning” voters that will ultimately NOT be voting for the Dem candidates. But who knows…

That's ridiculous comparing the Obama/Clinton race for the nomination of a political party to a general election which drove the republican candidate off the ballot.

There's little, if any, ideological difference between Clinton and Obama.

Exactly. That primary was about the organizations (who generally agree on policy) battling it out over tactical direction and the national candidate.

the difference there
was just race
she went after
hardworking people...
white people

Racist.

[SonOfSmeagol]

There's little, if any, ideological difference between Clinton and Obama.

That's ridiculous comparing the Obama/Clinton race for the nomination of a political party to a general election which drove the republican candidate off the ballot.

Wasn’t trying to compare ideologies or the actual races, just saying that potential turnout in general in opposition to Dems could actually be increased with more contention between Cons and Reps - in a similar way that last year's race mobilized more voters against Reps due to contention between the Dem candidates. And that this race specifically is really an outlier since this particular Rep candidate dropped out and endorsed the Dem against the Cons– in general I wouldn’t expect that to happen. That’s why I said “kind of analogous” – it was a bit of a stretch I know.

[high fly]

There's little, if any, ideological difference between Clinton and Obama.


That is true.
They also share having to begin their presidencies with economic disasters handed off by their predecessors.
Both inherited 7.4% unemployment rates and record-sized deficits and an economy in the shitter.
To clean up the mess foisted on them by the Bushes, both Obama and Clinton had to take measures that were unpopular, which gave the Republicans ammo to use in mid-term elections.....

[WRESTLINGFAN]

That is true.
They also share having to begin their presidencies with economic disasters handed off by their predecessors.
Both inherited 7.4% unemployment rates and record-sized deficits and an economy in the shitter.
To clean up the mess foisted on them by the Bushes, both Obama and Clinton had to take measures that were unpopular, which gave the Republicans ammo to use in mid-term elections.....


Obama is quadrupling down on stupidity. As far as him saying he inherited everything. Enough with the bitching and act like a fucking leader he should have stayed a Junior Senator if he didnt want the job. Being President isn't all about the perks

As far as Republicans many will not vote for one just because they have an R next to their name. On the other hand many democrats are faithful no matter how sleazy their man is, just look at Murtha, Rangel and others

[tanless1]

...also clinton inherited an economy that was on an upswing, at least that's how I remeber. I personaly don't care to see another bush in or near the white house....

[tanless1]

....do need to be fair though.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

...also clinton inherited an economy that was on an upswing, at least that's how I remeber. I personaly don't care to see another bush in or near the white house....

Agreed!!! However no more Clintons either

[tanless1]

Wasn't much difference, that's why I couldn't vote for mccain.....more of the same., and this lesser of 2 evils bullshit is killing us.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Wasn't much difference, that's why I couldn't vote for mccain.....more of the same., and this lesser of 2 evils bullshit is killing us.

I didnt vote for him either. He would have been just as bad

[Syd]

I didnt vote for him either. He would have been just as bad

worse, he's the tard that made the telecom act back in the day which paved the way for $100 cell phone bills while the rest of the world pays 1/3rd as much for the same service

same for broadband, etc

he's not a conservative, he is a how can I get rich from this job sleazebag

[WRESTLINGFAN]

worse, he's the tard that made the telecom act back in the day which paved the way for $100 cell phone bills while the rest of the world pays 1/3rd as much for the same service

same for broadband, etc

he's not a conservative, he is a how can I get rich from this job sleazebag

You think Obama is bad on Immigration? no wonder he was mentioned as Juan McCain

[TheMojoPin]

You think Obama is bad on Immigration? no wonder he was mentioned as Juan McCain

OK, now you're just creepy.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

OK, now you're just creepy.

Look at his policies at immigration. Is he not Mr open Borders? He was the co author of McCain Kennedy


McCain would have been a horrible President wouldnt you agree with that? And as far as him being a conservative he was definitely not that, he just liked to put that label on when it was convenient for him

[TheMojoPin]

I mean it's creepy that you went on a spree and were bringing up immigration in pretty much every political thread.

I don't think McCain would have been a horrible President if he had been elected in 2000, but 2008 McCain would have been a mess.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I mean it's creepy that you went on a spree and were bringing up immigration in pretty much every political thread.

I don't think McCain would have been a horrible President if he had been elected in 2000, but 2008 McCain would have been a mess.

When It has to do with a certain topic or issue like this, why shouldnt I bring it up?

If the Yankees would have lost the world series you think I would have blamed it on the illegals?

[underdog]

If the Yankees would have lost the world series you think I would have blamed it on the illegals?

Yes.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Yes.

I may be opposed to illegal aliens, but Im not Tom Tancredo, he would have said something like that

[TheMojoPin]

When It has to do with a certain topic or issue like this, why shouldnt I bring it up?

If the Yankees would have lost the world series you think I would have blamed it on the illegals?

Definitely.

And you basically brought it up in every active political thread that day. Even Lou Dobbs doesn't hate it that much.

[Dude!]

on immigration...
if we could deport 1 moslem
for every mexican who comes in
i say bring in all the mexicans
you can find

[high fly]

As far as him saying he inherited everything. Enough with the bitching and act like a fucking leader he should have stayed a Junior Senator if he didnt want the job.


He would not have to point that out if there were not so many dolts out there who tried to name it the "Obama Recession" even though it began in December 2007.
Those same dolts act as if Obama started with a clean slate instead of being handed off a disaster to clean up.
Clinton and Obama were both handed off economic disasters.
Clinton, beginning with the 1993 Deficit Reduction Act (which not a single Republican voted for) put us on the path to not just recovery, but balanced budgets, a smaller federal government, a decrease in poverty, wages of lower income groups growing faster than those in upper income groups, massive increases in exports and more.
It took time, and like now, Republicans mostly got in the way and tried to profit from misery, bitching that Clinton was not able to do in a year or two what they had been unable to do the previous 4.

Obama has taken responsibility from the beginning.
If I was a conservative and had seen the disaster my party's policies had brought about, I would not want to be reminded of it, either.


I have not heard Obama say he did not want the job, but I admit I don't see every news story and may have missed the one where he said he didn't want the job.
Gotta link?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

He would not have to point that out if there were not so many dolts out there who tried to name it the "Obama Recession" even though it began in December 2007.
Those same dolts act as if Obama started with a clean slate instead of being handed off a disaster to clean up.
Clinton and Obama were both handed off economic disasters.
Clinton, beginning with the 1993 Deficit Reduction Act (which not a single Republican voted for) put us on the path to not just recovery, but balanced budgets, a smaller federal government, a decrease in poverty, wages of lower income groups growing faster than those in upper income groups, massive increases in exports and more.
It took time, and like now, Republicans mostly got in the way and tried to profit from misery, bitching that Clinton was not able to do in a year or two what they had been unable to do the previous 4.

Obama has taken responsibility from the beginning.
If I was a conservative and had seen the disaster my party's policies had brought about, I would not want to be reminded of it, either.


I have not heard Obama say he did not want the job, but I admit I don't see every news story and may have missed the one where he said he didn't want the job.
Gotta link?

I didnt say that he didnt want the job but the consntant blaming of the previous administration shows that he cant just shut up and lead. He sounds like an old yenta sometimes

Obamas taking responsibility you are correct on that. Hes taking responsibility for driving the economy into the ground even further. The same stupidity that got us here hes moving at a quicker speed. This distorted math of his claiming he saved or created X number amount of jobs, what the fuck kind of logic is that? Where are the shovel ready jobs? Last month alone 65K construction jobs gone. You brought up deficit reduction act but to Obama he doesnt care about deficits. There will be trillion dollar deficits for years to come They want to raise the debt ceiling again soon to 13 trillion. I believe in Dubyas 8 years the debt ceiling went from 5 trillion to about 10 trillion. Already in 10 months the ceiling was raised to 12 trillion

I dont know why everyone called Bush a conservative he was far from it. He expanded the government more since LBJ. Just because someone quotes the bible doesnt make him a conservative

I dont buy this you have to spend money to make money. Our economic house is crumbling, the dollar is losing value, commodoties are going up. Our long term economic outlook isnt looking too good. The stock market is not a leading indicator

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Definitely.

And you basically brought it up in every active political thread that day. Even Lou Dobbs doesn't hate it that much.

Definitely not. Blaming AJ's awful outing in game 5 isnt their fault

That was the day I started the immigration thread. And Whats wrong with pointing out the financial burden they are to taxpayers on both a local and federal level? Why should they be rewarded with all these perks for hopping a fence or overstaying their visa?

[TheMojoPin]

Definitely not. Blaming AJ's awful outing in game 5 isnt their fault

That was the day I started the immigration thread. And Whats wrong with pointing out the financial burden they are to taxpayers on both a local and federal level? Why should they be rewarded with all these perks for hopping a fence or overstaying their visa?

Because we like them better than you.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Because we like them better than you.

I still like you better than them

[TheMojoPin]

Hippie.

[epo]

Let's face it, with David Frum being kicked out...the Republican Party has made their choice. They are now an extreme right-wing party in American politics and no longer have a taste for the center.

Have fun teabagging in obscurity!

[high fly]

Let's face it, with David Frum being kicked out...the Republican Party has made their choice. They are now an extreme right-wing party in American politics and no longer have a taste for the center.

Have fun teabagging in obscurity!


Nawwwww, man. They will cruise to victory by appealing to a smaller slice of the electorate.
Can't you see the logic in that?


The way I see it, when they get the normal gains an opposition party gets in a mid-term - about 20-25 seats, they will take that for a mandate. They will be encouraged to run a far-right ticket in 2012 and get creamed again.

I am prepared to contribute money to a Palin / Bachmann ticket...

[SonOfSmeagol]

http://www.neatorama.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/bunker.jpg

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Let's face it, with David Frum being kicked out...the Republican Party has made their choice. They are now an extreme right-wing party in American politics and no longer have a taste for the center.

Have fun teabagging in obscurity!

Good riddance to Frum. Fuck Crist, Graham and McCain too. If there were more Ron Pauls who is one of the few that actually embraces smaller gov't maybe the GOP would be energized more.

[high fly]

Good riddance to Frum. Fuck Crist, Graham and McCain too. If there were more Ron Pauls who is one of the few that actually embraces smaller gov't maybe the GOP would be energized more.


Good idea.
Making the party smaller and turning off even more voters is the key to victory!

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Good idea.
Making the party smaller and turning off even more voters is the key to victory!

Getting rid of the dead weight is a great idea. Crist is going down in flames and McCain had to wheel out Palin

[epo]

Here is something to thing about with voting trends:


Year Republican Democrats
1984 58.8% 40.6%
1988 53.4% 45.7%
1992 37.5% 43.0%
1996 40.7% 49.2%
2000 47.9% 48.4%
2004 50.7% 48.3%
2008 45.7% 52.9%

Those are the national presidential numbers. Its obvious the overall trend is + Dems, - Reps. How does the Republican Party choose to end this trend?

Shrink the tent. Thanks, you just made the job of the Democratic Party just that much easier! :thumbup:

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Here is something to thing about with voting trends:


Year Republican Democrats
1984 58.8% 40.6%
1988 53.4% 45.7%
1992 37.5% 43.0%
1996 40.7% 49.2%
2000 47.9% 48.4%
2004 50.7% 48.3%
2008 45.7% 52.9%

Those are the national presidential numbers. Its obvious the overall trend is + Dems, - Reps. How does the Republican Party choose to end this trend?

Shrink the tent. Thanks, you just made the job of the Democratic Party just that much easier! :thumbup:

Fuck the independents though right? BHO and the Dems are bleeding them. Thats the ting about trends. They can always swing in the opposite direction

[epo]

Fuck the independents though right? BHO and the Dems are bleeding them

So you think that a gain of independents by the extreme behavior we've seen this week via the Tea Party Republicans will be greater than the loss of true moderate Republicans?

As a Democrat, I'll take that bet every time.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

So you think that a gain of independents by the extreme behavior we've seen this week via the Tea Party Republicans will be greater than the loss of true moderate Republicans?

As a Democrat, I'll take that bet every time.

And the Democrats are all altar boys? Im not condoning the messages left for Stupak et al, but your side also had extreme behavior as there were death threats made by Dems

[Bob Impact]

Here is something to thing about with voting trends:


Year Republican Democrats
1984 - -
1988 V ^
1992 V V
1996 ^ ^
2000 ^ V
2004 ^ -
2008 v ^

or

Rep: Down, Down, Up, Up Up, Down
Dem: Up, Down, Up, Down, Flat, Up



Wow, you're right, that's an incredibly clear trend.

[high fly]

Fuck the independents though right? BHO and the Dems are bleeding them. Thats the ting about trends. They can always swing in the opposite direction

And the best way to do it is move further from the center out to the far right fringe, eh?

Get more voters by appealing to fewer of them, huh?

[Dude!]

And the Democrats are all altar boys?

no, the Democrats are the priests
and the public is the alter boy

and the public is getting fucked

[Bob Impact]

no, the Democrats are the priests
and the public is the alter boy

and the public is getting fucked

in the mouth.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

And the best way to do it is move further from the center out to the far right fringe, eh?

Get more voters by appealing to fewer of them, huh?

Ron Paul is far right fringe?
You're saying that hes a Palin or Huckabee? Nice comparisons there

[epo]

Wow, you're right, that's an incredibly clear trend.

Yes it is:

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii49/j2christ/Trendline.jpg

[Bob Impact]

Yes it is:

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii49/j2christ/Trendline.jpg

You can make graphs all you want, it's not a trend, its a response to the indivdual candidates. You're talking about a minimal spread. How about this, here's the top ten popular vote getters of all time:

1. Richard Nixon 112.6
2. George W. Bush 112.5
3. Franklin D. Roosevelt 103.4
4. Ronald Reagan 98.4
5. Bill Clinton 90.5
6. George Bush 87.0
7. Jimmy Carter 76.3
8. Barack Obama 69.5
9. Dwight Eisenhower 69.4
10. John McCain 59.9

OMG OMG NIXON GWBUSH and REAGAN ALL BEAT OBAMA! LOOKS LIKE ITS OVER FOR THE DEMS!

[epo]

You can make graphs all you want, it's not a trend, its a response to the indivdual candidates. You're talking about a minimal spread. How about this, here's the top ten popular vote getters of all time:

1. Richard Nixon 112.6
2. George W. Bush 112.5
3. Franklin D. Roosevelt 103.4
4. Ronald Reagan 98.4
5. Bill Clinton 90.5
6. George Bush 87.0
7. Jimmy Carter 76.3
8. Barack Obama 69.5
9. Dwight Eisenhower 69.4
10. John McCain 59.9

OMG OMG NIXON GWBUSH and REAGAN ALL BEAT OBAMA! LOOKS LIKE ITS OVER FOR THE DEMS!

If I were the Republican Party, with an NBC poll this week at 23% for Republican Party identification ...and that trend line....I'd make my tent bigger. Much, much bigger.

[Bob Impact]

You're confusing coorelation for causation.

[Bob Impact]

Also interesting the year you started at... didn't really give republicans anywhere to go but down, if that trend meant anything, which it quite simply doesn't . That said I actually agree with your point.

[epo]

Also interesting the year you started at... didn't really give republicans anywhere to go but down, if that trend meant anything, which it quite simply doesn't . That said I actually agree with your point.

Actually the numbers in 1992 & 1996 should've been much better for the republican party, except Ross Perot took conservatives & independents that theoretically should've voted for the GOP. Clinton's elections, while valid are actually freakish in their nature.

That trend would be much more obvious with Ross' share of the vote.

[Bob Impact]

Actually the numbers in 1992 & 1996 should've been much better for the republican party, except Ross Perot took conservatives & independents that theoretically should've voted for the GOP. Clinton's elections, while valid are actually freakish in their nature.

That trend would be much more obvious with Ross' share of the vote.

And so was Reagan. Either way you're proving my point... each election is an independent event, while some voters may carry a party allegiance (and again, I agree with you that the Republican base is shrinking) to say that a trend line like this is valid is flawed logic. I don't think you're doing it maliciously, and I get why it makes sense at a glance, but it's not really the right argument. The spread could be attributed to many things, differences in candidates, the make up of congress, the presence or lack of third party candidates. The number of people registering for each party per year would probably be a closer measure of what you're trying to prove.

Personally I'm registered independent and haven't voted Republican in any presidential election since I've been eligible (first vote was for Clinton's second term) primarily because the Republicans have swayed so far into crazy religious right territory.

[SonOfSmeagol]

You're confusing coorelation for causation.

I'm marveling at the jargon.

[sailor]

And so was Reagan. Either way you're proving my point... each election is an independent event, while some voters may carry a party allegiance (and again, I agree with you that the Republican base is shrinking) to say that a trend line like this is valid is flawed logic. I don't think you're doing it maliciously, and I get why it makes sense at a glance, but it's not really the right argument. The spread could be attributed to many things, differences in candidates, the make up of congress, the presence or lack of third party candidates. The number of people registering for each party per year would probably be a closer measure of what you're trying to prove.

Personally I'm registered independent and haven't voted Republican in any presidential election since I've been eligible (first vote was for Clinton's second term) primarily because the Republicans have swayed so far into crazy religious right territory.

if you switch bush 1 or reagan 2 with obama this graph would be a sure sign of things going the opposite direction epo thinks, it would be 4 consecutive elections with an increase. it's all silly.

[Bob Impact]

I'm marveling at the jargon.

Jargon? I guess, but they're logical terms that have been around for hundreds of years, it's a nice quick way of getting across a really long point.

[SonOfSmeagol]

I was j/k

[Bob Impact]

I was j/k

Sorry boss, the sleeping pills kicked in about 10 minutes ago, im runnin on fumes here.

[Dude!]

I was j/k

i was the walrus

[Recyclerz]

Good idea.
Making the party smaller and turning off even more voters is the key to victory!

I'd say their appeal is becoming more selective. :wink:

[underdog]

Wow, you're right, that's an incredibly clear trend.

Yeah, those numbers really showed nothing.

[SonOfSmeagol]

Yeah, those numbers really showed nothing.

I think this is what he was trying to say.


http://www.ics.com/files/docs/kd/images/simpleline.png

[underdog]

I think this is what he was trying to say.


http://www.ics.com/files/docs/kd/images/simpleline.png

That graph could actually be conclusive.

[high fly]

Ron Paul is far right fringe?
You're saying that hes a Palin or Huckabee? Nice comparisons there

The part of my post you responded to did not mention Ron Paul.
Nor did any of my other posts in this part of the discussion....

[high fly]

Actually the numbers in 1992 & 1996 should've been much better for the republican party, except Ross Perot took conservatives & independents that theoretically should've voted for the GOP. Clinton's elections, while valid are actually freakish in their nature.

That trend would be much more obvious with Ross' share of the vote.


Easy there, big fella.
As I recall, it was supposed that Perot would take away votes from Bush41, but exit polling showed most Perot voters would have voted for Clinton if Perot was not in the race...