Why Politics Is Nonsense

[GregoryJoseph]

The way the political system has evolved in this country, you must be a member of one of two gigantic parties in order to get the funding and press needed to run a successful campaign and be elected.

One party views from the left, the other from the right.

Therein lies the absurdity of it all.

It's as if one is standing on the west side of a city, describing the view, and saying "THIS is how this city looks. No doubt about it."

The other stands on the east side and insists HIS view is true look of the city.

Obviously both are flawed.

The thing I'll never understand is the people who stand behind their party's candidate and agree that his view is the only correct one.

Kind of like the blind leading the blind.

Obviously the east facing view is ONE way to look at it, as is the west looking one.

To assert that either is the ONLY way to understand the big picture is folly.

The truth lies overhead, and within the city itself.

Very few politicians are ever brave enough to go to either place, however.

[Marc with a c]

east side do or die mother fuckers.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Both Parties whore themselves out to special interests and lobbyists. Also the politicians have a huge power trip not knowing that they are public servants forst and foremost. Unfortunately this country has a dumbed down gullible electorate. Look at the '08 Presidential campaign classic example.

Some say that a 3rd party is needed, but theres no way that it can compete with the steamrollers of the 2 major parties as both raise tremendous amounts of cash. The GOP is held hostage to the religious right and the Dems rely on the poor and minorities

[sailor]

for it to make any sense, you need to look at both economic views and personal rights views (preferably on a cartesian plane). you can use other axes, but those are probably the two most basic.

http://www.chemistrydaily.com/chemistry/upload/7/7b/2d_political_spectrum.png

[hanso]

More parties more better? Or does it dilute the pool?

[GregoryJoseph]

More parties more better? Or does it dilute the pool?

I think political parties should be disbanded.

Why label people?

Let candidates speak about their views on a myriad of topics and let the people decide whose viewpoints they most agree with.

[Dude!]

they built that city
on rock and roll

[hanso]

I think political parties should be disbanded.

Why label people?

Let candidates speak about their views on a myriad of topics and let the people decide whose viewpoints they most agree with.

I see where you coming from now.
You must have a beef with lobbyist then.

[KnoxHarrington]

Here's the thing: I agree with this argument to a degree, and do feel that, too often, partisanship keeps us from actually solving any problems.

That said, what I find annoying is that I see so many people saying that politics is stupid, both sides are idiots, etc. etc., but then they only seem to trash one party or the other.

The prime example of this: Bill O'Reilly claims to be an "independent." Yeah, whatever Bill. You've got an elephant tattooed on your ass. Just admit it.

[epo]

What you fail to recognize is that the two major political parties aren't "points of view", rather that they are organizing bodies for individuals with points of view. The party itself doesn't vote, rather the parties influence people to elect those who do vote.

Your "issue" shouldn't be with the established parties, your issue should be with the various non-mainstream parties and their lack of organization. Philsophically I would love more parties, such as the libertarians and the greens as they would add to our national discourse.

However, until they get off their asses and do something, the big two will continue to dominate.

[KnoxHarrington]

What you fail to recognize is that the two major political parties aren't "points of view", rather that they are organizing bodies for individuals with points of view. The party itself doesn't vote, rather the parties influence people to elect those who do vote.

Your "issue" shouldn't be with the established parties, your issue should be with the various non-mainstream parties and their lack of organization. Philsophically I would love more parties, such as the libertarians and the greens as they would add to our national discourse.

However, until they get off their asses and do something, the big two will continue to dominate.

Well, the problem is that parties like the Libertarian Party and the Green Party piss away what resources they do have in hopeless Presidential campaigns.

Get some people on city councils, in state legislatures, etc. Build from there.

[A.J.]

Politics isn't nonsense. It's local.

[sailor]

Well, the problem is that parties like the Libertarian Party and the Green Party piss away what resources they do have in hopeless Presidential campaigns.

Get some people on city councils, in state legislatures, etc. Build from there.

it's like getting mad at rc cola or white rock for not having better marketing to compete with coke and pepsi. just silly of epo.

[epo]

Well, the problem is that parties like the Libertarian Party and the Green Party piss away what resources they do have in hopeless Presidential campaigns.

Get some people on city councils, in state legislatures, etc. Build from there.

yeah, it's like getting mad at rc cola or white rock for not having better marketing to compete with coke and pepsi. just silly of epo.

Sailor, believe it or not, I totally agree with Knox's point. Their organizational structures are completely backwards and I've been harping on that point for years.

There is so much ground to be made at the local levels its amazing, and yet they think that being one voice in a larger body is the way to go. Simply foolishness.

[sailor]

Sailor, believe it or not, I totally agree with Knox's point. Their organizational structures are completely backwards and I've been harping on that point for years.

There is so much ground to be made at the local levels its amazing, and yet they think that being one voice in a larger body is the way to go. Simply foolishness.

i actually got rid of the "yeah" in my post because i saw he wasn't as far from you as i first thought. i just think it would take so many decades for any bit of ground to be made. and then you can just get crushed under an avalanche of money. like trying to open a mom-and-pop joint next to a super walmart.

[Syd]

Disband the bicameral legislature and replace it with a representative parliament. America only has two political parties -- pro-choice, pro-corporatist and a pro-life, pro-corporatist party. We need more options than "get fucked by a corporation and their drive for profit" since abortion isn't ever going anywhere so long as it draws voters in.

[epo]

i actually got rid of the "yeah" in my post because i saw he wasn't as far from you as i first thought. i just think it would take so many decades for any bit of ground to be made. and then you can just get crushed under an avalanche of money. like trying to open a mom-and-pop joint next to a super walmart.

In my opinion it would take 25 years or so to be a national force. By using a local-to-national approach they could build local parties to support their national effort.

The funny thing about fundraising to me is its the excuse, not the reason that people don't start local efforts. If they only knew how many people who donate to the big two parties would love an alternative.

[TheMojoPin]

The inherrent flaw to this diatribe and those of its ilk is the assertion that our political system has "evolved" into what we know it as today. That's saying that we didn't always have two major political parties dominating the political landscape. Such a conclusion represents a fundamental misunderstanding of our history and our political system. The political landscape has ALWAYS been dominated by two major parties. It was expressly "designed" that way from day one. Who those parties are has certainly changed several times over the centuries, but the political arena in this country has always been defined by two major parties. Any time a regional political interest starts gaining national attraction, be they Bull Moose or Populist or Green or Libertarian, the major party closest to them in ideology adapts key tenets or aspects of the regional party. We've danced this dance numerous times over the course of our history.

The American 2-party system is by far the best and strongest 2-party system. It's one of the few times we can actually claim such hyperbole. Contrary to the cliche complaints, it runs far more effectively and efficiently than any other major 2-party system in the world, and possible in all of history. What a 2-party system serves to do is reducing fragmentation and act as a unifying function for the public, or interest agregation. This encourages people to look past their differences and focus on similarities. Granted, this isn't some perfect system along these lines, but its benefits are gigantic for a country the size of ours.

Some of the cons of a 2-party system: decrease in choice and as such a decrease in political participation. It's harder to use the parties as a cue for voting behavior and you see much more candidate-centered politics.

On the other hand you have some key pros as well when looking at a country the size of the U.S.: wide appeal, easy to govern (which is critical), policy stability and a LOT of flexibility to compromise.

Again, it's cute and idealistic to want more major national parties, but it was never intended that we have more than 2. We had an intentional initial dualism from the very beginning of the republic with the Federalists and the Anti-Federalists. We are stronger because we have a 2-party system. The focus of additional parties, as has been mentioned here, should be on the local level. That's how they'll have the most influence on the 2 big dogs.

And for those that want more parties a la what we often see in Europe...why? U.S. parties are actually decentralized and the real heart of the party is still at the state level. U.S. parties are not mass-membership parties. They are ultimately non-ideological "umbrella parties" for diverse political interests. They effectively force compromise and divergent elemets to have to at least be considered.

It's pretty far from a perfect system, but to look at this revisionist view of the 2-party system as something we "evolved" to become is completely wrong.

[Dude!]

The inherrent flaw to this diatribe and those of its ilk is the assertion that our political system has "evolved" into what we know it as today. That's saying that we didn't always have two major political parties dominating the political landscape. Such a conclusion represents a fundamental misunderstanding of our history and our political system. The political landscape has ALWAYS been dominated by two major parties. It was expressly "designed" that way from day one. Who those parties are has certainly changed several times over the centuries, but the political arena in this country has always been defined by two major parties. Any time a regional political interest starts gaining national attraction, be they Bull Moose or Populist or Green or Libertarian, the major party closest to them in ideology adapts key tenets or aspects of the regional party. We've danced this dance numerous times over the course of our history.

The American 2-party system is by far the best and strongest 2-party system. It's one of the few times we can actually claim such hyperbole. Contrary to the cliche complaints, it runs far more effectively and efficiently than any other major 2-party system in the world, and possible in all of history. What a 2-party system serves to do is reducing fragmentation and act as a unifying function for the public, or interest agregation. This encourages people to look past their differences and focus on similarities. Granted, this isn't some perfect system along these lines, but its benefits are gigantic for a country the size of ours.

Some of the cons of a 2-party system: decrease in choice and as such a decrease in political participation. It's harder to use the parties as a cue for voting behavior and you see much more candidate-centered politics.

On the other hand you have some key pros as well when looking at a country the size of the U.S.: wide appeal, easy to govern (which is critical), policy stability and a LOT of flexibility to compromise.

Again, it's cute and idealistic to want more major national parties, but it was never intended that we have more than 2. We had an intentional initial dualism from the very beginning of the republic with the Federalists and the Anti-Federalists. We are stronger because we have a 2-party system. The focus of additional parties, as has been mentioned here, should be on the local level. That's how they'll have the most influence on the 2 big dogs.

And for those that want more parties a la what we often see in Europe...why? U.S. parties are actually decentralized and the real heart of the party is still at the state level. U.S. parties are not mass-membership parties. They are ultimately non-ideological "umbrella parties" for diverse political interests. They effectively force compromise and divergent elemets to have to at least be considered.

It's pretty far from a perfect system, but to look at this revisionist view of the 2-party system as something we "evolved" to become is completely wrong.

wow
thank you professor
those 12 years of college
really paid off

[TheMojoPin]

Don't fear knowledge.

[GregoryJoseph]

Don't fear knowledge.

Don't worship it either.

[JohnCharles]

Don't worship it either.

Maintain a balance between things that you can know and understanding that there will be things that you can't know.

[epo]

Maintain a balance between things that you can know and understanding that there will be things that you can't know.

And there are alot of things that Gregory Joseph doesn't know.

[JohnCharles]

And there are alot of things that Gregory Joseph doesn't know.

That's his lesson to understand that it is ok to not know.

[epo]

That's his lesson to understand that it is ok to not know.

And yet look at him.

[JohnCharles]

And yet look at him.

I've only ever seen the back of his head.

[TheMojoPin]

Don't worship it either.

Yeah, embrace ignorance instead, that makes much more sense. Knowing things is overrated. Politics and history should just be approached with a hunch and gut instinct, right?

Silly me for thinking you'd want a thought-out political discussion for once.

[JohnCharles]

You really should have thought-out this one.

[TheMojoPin]

He should have.

[JohnCharles]

Zing!

[TheMojoPin]

Don't be afraid of the almighty hyphen. (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Thought-out)

[tanless1]

Didn't pelosi say this bill wld be posted on internet for 72hrs before a vote ?....

[epo]

Didn't pelosi say this bill wld be posted on internet for 72hrs before a vote ?....

The bill about Gregory Joseph's views on politics?

You make no sense.

[hanso]

Yeah, embrace ignorance instead, that makes much more sense. Knowing things is overrated. Politics and history should just be approached with a hunch and gut instinct, right?

Silly me for thinking you'd want a thought-out political discussion for once.

As in starting a war in Afghanistan when two other great nations have failed before.

[GregoryJoseph]

Yeah, embrace ignorance instead, that makes much more sense. Knowing things is overrated. Politics and history should just be approached with a hunch and gut instinct, right?

Silly me for thinking you'd want a thought-out political discussion for once.

I didn't say to embrace ignorance; I said don't worship knowledge.

Some people fall in love with learning and do nothing else with their life.

The acquire knowledge for knowledge's sake.

It's absurd. Imagine if a baseball player said he couldn't get up to bat until he studied and understood everything there was to know about hitting.

That's a lot of people in this world, unfortunately.

[TheMojoPin]

I didn't say to embrace ignorance; I said don't worship knowledge.

Some people fall in love with learning and do nothing else with their life.

The acquire knowledge for knowledge's sake.

It's absurd. Imagine if a baseball player said he couldn't get up to bat until he studied and understood everything there was to know about hitting.

That's a lot of people in this world, unfortunately.

Fine, but honestly, what does any of that have to do with this thread?

[GregoryJoseph]

Fine, but honestly, what does any of that have to do with this thread?

I don't know.

You're the one who brought it up.

[TheMojoPin]

I don't know.

You're the one who brought it up.

Nobody brought up "worshiping knowledge" except for you.

[GregoryJoseph]

Don't fear knowledge.

Don't worship it either.

There you have it.

In order.

[TheMojoPin]

Yup, there you have it. Two completely different statements. Nobody brought up the ridiculous idea of "worshiping knowledge" except for you.

[GregoryJoseph]

Yup, there you have it. Two completely different statements. Nobody brought up the ridiculous idea of "worshiping knowledge" except for you.

You said "Don't fear it."

I tacitly agreed by saying "Don't worship it, either."

[TheMojoPin]

You said "Don't fear it."

I tacitly agreed by saying "Don't worship it, either."

We all know what you were doing. And what you're avoiding.

[hanso]

You stop with Politics?
Why not say all social sciences are nonsense?

[Bob Impact]

Yup, there you have it. Two completely different statements. Nobody brought up the ridiculous idea of "worshiping knowledge" except for you.

And me. Worship knowledge, it's what's keeping you alive.

:thumbup:

[WRESTLINGFAN]

These politicians are really for the common working people. About 45% of them are millionaires


http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1109/29235.html

[Ocho Cinco]

ever notice how mojo makes the most sense on this board and always backs up his points with well thought out arguments and reasoning? yeah me too

i just watched braveheart again and noticed all the scotish nobles fighting over who william wallace should support and instead of embracing his fight for freedom they turned it into political nonsense and fighting and got nothing accomplished. it's just funny how even in the year of our lord it was still all the same garbage, nothing ever changes

i try to pay attention to politics but it is maddening, i don't identify w/ either party although i'm pretty sure i'm the opposite of sean hannity and limbaugh

[Dude!]

ever notice how mojo makes the most sense on this board

no

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Anyone who thought McCain would have been a better President is nuts. In some ways he would have been worse than Obama

[TheMojoPin]

ever notice how mojo makes the most sense on this board and always backs up his points with well thought out arguments and reasoning? yeah me too

I always knew I was a fan of Chad for a reason.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Because politicians are nonsense. Frank may not smoke pot he sure knows how to smoke the pole


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/11/07/barney-frank-was-present_n_349648.html

[high fly]

Because politicians are nonsense. Frank may not smoke pot he sure knows how to smoke the pole


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/11/07/barney-frank-was-present_n_349648.html

I'd smoke pot with Frank...........

[SonOfSmeagol]

All it takes is a piece, a bud, and a flame. The greatest bridger of politics ever - at least for like 15 minutes or so. :smoke:

[high fly]

All it takes is a piece, a bud, and a flame. The greatest bridger of politics ever - at least for like 15 minutes or so. :smoke:


Right on rightonrighton.
I'd rather think about smoking pot than beejers, but it's ok if that's what others fixate on............. just not me......

[hanso]

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/jilr9csP8LE&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/jilr9csP8LE&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
Nonsensical

[A.J.]

Because politicians are nonsense. Frank may not smoke pot he sure knows how to smoke the pole


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/11/07/barney-frank-was-present_n_349648.html

And his last partner ran a male prostitution ring out of his house. But Frank didn't know about that either.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

And his last partner ran a male prostitution ring out of his house. But Frank didn't know about that either.


Frank was the patron Saint of Fannie

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122091796187012529.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

He was also in a relationship with an Exec fromt That GSE

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,432501,00.html


The entire country pays for the people in Massachusetts
for them to keep sending people like Barney Frank and the Late not so great Ted Kennedy back to DC

[A.J.]

The entire country pays for the people in Massachusetts
for them to keep sending people like Barney Frank and the Late not so great Ted Kennedy back to DC

And don't forget the late Rep. Gerry Studds who had a sexual relationship with a 17-year-old male congressional page.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

William Jefferson is facing more than 25 years in jail for keeping over 90gs in his freezer


http://www.wwltv.com/news/local/Govt-asks-27-years-in-prison-for-William-Jefferson-69569287.html

I believe this country has an electorate, thats naive, gullible, uninformed and has a blind devotion to these filth in both parties

[TheMojoPin]

The entire country pays for the people in Massachusetts
for them to keep sending people like Barney Frank and the Late not so great Ted Kennedy back to DC

Term limits were not placed on these offices to actually strengthen states' rights: why should the federal government be able to limit a state's population from electing the person they want to represent them? A state being able to elect someone they're satisifed with allows that state to receive the benefits of having an experienced and infuential representative and all that that brings to the state. How can self-proclaimed conservatives reconcile their claims to be pro-states' rights and yet be opposed to something so specifically demanded by anti-federalists to help ensure states' rights?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Term limits were not placed on these offices to actually strengthen states' rights: why should the federal government be able to limit a state's population from electing the person they want to represent them? A state being able to elect someone they're satisifed with allows that state to receive the benefits of having an experienced and infuential representative and all that that brings to the state. How can self-proclaimed conservatives reconcile their claims to be pro-states' rights and yet be opposed to something so specifically demanded by anti-federalists to help ensure states' rights?

There were no term limits for the Presidency until there was an ammendment passed for that. Career politicians did not exist in Congress. They did their 2 terms and went back into the private sector

I am a realist that term limits will never be enacted for Congress as what member of congress would ever allow themselves to be voted out of a job? That alone needs 2/3 majority in both houses before the states ratify it

[A.J.]

There were no term limits for the Presidency until there was an ammendment passed for that. Career politicians did not exist in Congress. They did their 2 terms and went back into the private sector

Huh? Here's a list of the longest serving members of Congress. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_members_of_the_United_States_Congress_by_l ongevity_of_service) There are a lot who served more than 2 terms.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Huh? Here's a list of the longest serving members of Congress. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_members_of_the_United_States_Congress_by_l ongevity_of_service) There are a lot who served more than 2 terms.

I meant to say that before the 20th century there werent the Rangels, Kennedys, Byrds et al.

Unfortunately my state has a dinosaur thats been there for 35 years and who is hopefully gone in '10

[A.J.]

I meant to say that before the 20th century there werent the Rangels, Kennedys, Byrds et al.

Unfortunately my state has a dinosaur thats been there for 35 years and who is hopefully gone in '10

That whole delegation is there for life: unless one of them decides to run for Governor since Rell announced that she's not running for another term.

[TheMojoPin]

There were no term limits for the Presidency until there was an ammendment passed for that. Career politicians did not exist in Congress. They did their 2 terms and went back into the private sector

This is not true at all. You're merging the decorum that was observed with the office of the President with the Congress. You're also ignoring the huge timeframe between a "career politician" (of which there were many of from day one) and someone who only served two terms. By 1851 you had the first Senator to serve for 30 years, so this is hardly a new development. One of the main reasons is you didn't have as many longterm members of congress is that most of those with congressional experience would be selected to serve in federal positions or would be given or seek other state legislation positions, this largely being due to the Senator selection being a function of state legislators and not popular election until the 20th century (your idea that the majority of congressional members went back to the "private sector" instead of elsewhere into federal or state government is especially baffling). This is why the selection of "who the state wants" was seen as a necessary function of state rights. Whether by legislation selection or election, it was seen that it was the state's perogative. The House was even more expressly designed to reflect the opinion of the people. What you're in favor of is utlimately rejecting the will of the states' populations and undercutting the ability of their representatives to "provide" for the state.

[TheMojoPin]

I meant to say that before the 20th century there werent the Rangels, Kennedys, Byrds et al.

Unfortunately my state has a dinosaur thats been there for 35 years and who is hopefully gone in '10

You do realize one of the main reasons you didn't have such long serving politicians was because people died a LOT earlier, right?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

You do realize one of the main reasons you didn't have such long serving politicians was because people died a LOT earlier, right?

Yes, but did they have the gold plated healthcare and other benefits then? They were actually public servants and not some self serving entitled mentality hacks like we have today

[underdog]

Yes, but did they have the gold plated healthcare and other benefits then? They were actually public servants and not some self serving entitled mentality hacks like we have today

Uh, what was gold plated healthcare in the 1800s? Better leeches?

[TheMojoPin]

Yes, but did they have the gold plated healthcare and other benefits then? They were actually public servants and not some self serving entitled mentality hacks like we have today

That's simply subjective interpretation on your part. You want to boil it down to "old timey = good" and "modern day = bad" without any actual breakdown of who was holding office and what went down.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Uh, what was gold plated healthcare in the 1800s? Better leeches?

Yesterdays leeches are todays Pelosis

[TheMojoPin]

Uh-oh, I think he's broken.

Next he's going to be mad that today's politicians have their fancy platinum internet connections and guys back in the day only had humble, kindly telegraph machines.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

That's simply subjective interpretation on your part. You want to boil it down to "old timey = good" and "modern day = bad" without any actual breakdown of who was holding office and what went down.

There was a relitavely constant change in Congress. Im not denying that there were a few people that stayed longer than 2 terms, The constitution doesnt mandate term limits for congress

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Uh-oh, I think he's broken.

Next he's going to be mad that today's politicians have their fancy platinum internet connections and guys back in the day only had humble, kindly telegraph machines.

Doyou think many of the geezers know how to use the internets? Who knows 100 years ago people were debating about the founders using carrier pigeons

[TheMojoPin]

There was a relitavely constant change in Congress. Im not denying that there were a few people that stayed longer than 2 terms, The constitution doesnt mandate term limits for congress

Because it was intentionally being left up to the states, whether through election or selection by state legislators. Why should the federal government be able to undercut all the clout and experience and influence and whatnot that Congressman can acrue that helps their states?

[Serpico1103]

Because it was intentionally being left up to the states, whether through election or selection by state legislators. Why should the federal government be able to undercut all the clout and experience and influence and whatnot that Congressman can acrue that helps their states?

Because the clones have begun to attack. We must entrust all our power in the Emperor so he can effectively combat this evil.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Because the clones have begun to attack. We must entrust all our power in the Emperor so he can effectively combat this evil.

Not to worry. He will save you

http://www.flickr.com/photos/9084977@N03/3003951368/

[TheMojoPin]

You're so odd.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

You're so odd.

Why do you make comments when someone disagrees with you or makes a joke about the president?

What is odd about thinking that all politicians are public servants and many abuse their power. They talk down to the electorate, lecture us and tell us whats right according to THEIR interests?

Why wont they exempt from any public option if this healthcare bill is passed. They want it, they should be required to participate as well. They complain about bonuses to AIG meanwhile they pass a stimulus bill without reading it. They now say the patriot act goes too far, I agree with that as well but did anyone beside Russ Feingold read it?

Now theres the 2000 page healthcare bill. Does it really need to be that many pages? Its probably going to be more after they stick in all their pork projects in. This isnt angre at just the Democrats its at the deadbeat Republicans like McCain and Graham who have been in DC way too long


Its not just rubes that Glenn Beck is exploiting who is sick of the spending and taxes. I dont fall into that stereotype, of someone with crazy signs. As someone who pays about 55% in taxes when factoring all the different levels plus local property taxes when does it slow down? For arguements sake if taxes were raised to better fund the VA and assist veterans and the war effort I wouldnt mind paying for that.

When these politicians say that Im not contributing enough youre damn right it strikes a nerve.

We unfortunately do have many who are uninformed and naive who say "the government is giving me free money" Well that money was taken away from someone else in order to give to them. How many people can name at least 4 or 5 justices on the supreme court or know who their local rep is in congress?

[TheMojoPin]

I made it because you won't stick to your crazy declarations. You make these ridiculous proclamations, get called out on them, can't back them up, spin what you originally said into something totally different, then try to spiral whatever the conversation is off into totally different rants. This isn't something you always do (usually you can back up the point you're making), but you get off on these bizarre tangents that have no relevance to anything and are ultimately just bonkers non sequiters.

And why in God's name do you expect politicians to use the public option if they don't want to? One of the biggest faux-complaints is people screaming that they don't want to be forced to use a public option, but then they turn around and eemand that certain people are forced to take the public option? Why? The idea has always been that if people can and want to have private coverage, they have private coverage. The public option is for those that need it.

[TheMojoPin]

Its not just rubes that Glenn Beck is exploiting who is sick of the spending and taxes. I dont fall into that stereotype, of someone with crazy signs.

No, you're someone with crazy posts, Mr. "Nazism was a Left wing ideology" and Sir "Congressman used to only serve 2 terms and then went back into the private sector" and Lord "We need to cut back on 'imperial spending' but I want the borders and coasts secured fulltime and indefinitely."

As someone who pays about 55% in taxes when factoring all the different levels plus local property taxes when does it slow down? For arguements sake if taxes were raised to better fund the VA and assist veterans and the war effort I wouldnt mind paying for that

So why is your support for that more valid than someone who wouldn't mind paying more taxes if it meant health care coverage and everyone could go to some kind of college?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I made it because you won't stick to your crazy declarations. You make these ridiculous proclamations, get called out on them, can't back them up, spin what you originally said into something totally different, then try to spiral whatever the conversation is off into totally different rants.

And then sometimes you just randomly post a link to a picture of Obama as a king and McCain as a jester.

And why in God's name do you expect politicians to use the public option if they don't want to? One of the biggest faux-complaints is people screaming that they don't want to be forced to use a public option, but then they turn around and eemand that certain people are forced to take the public option? Why? The idea has always been that if people can and want to have private coverage, they have private coverage. The public option is for those that need it.


This might be an option for a few years maybe 10-20 years but eventually the main goal is for single payer. Why dont they just say they want single payer? They re word these programs and eventually it morphes into a massive monstrosity

Look at medicare when it was passed back in 65, Its now swelled to about 400 billion dollars annually. Look how social security is being driven into the ground. Some programs like this may have started out with good intentions but look at the unintended consequences. Even if there isnt single payer and the public option becomes like Fannie/Freddie 50 years down the road that might need a multi hundred billion dollar bailout

[WRESTLINGFAN]

No, you're someone with crazy posts, Mr. "Nazism was a Left wing ideology" and Sir "Congressman used to only serve 2 terms and then went back into the private sector" and Lord "We need to cut back on 'imperial spending' but I want the borders and coasts secured fulltime and indefinitely."



So why is your support for that more valid than someone who wouldn't mind paying more taxes if it meant health care coverage and everyone could go to some kind of college?

If the government would stop spending on unnecssary wars, eliminate some cabinet posts like DHS and the Dept of Education that money could be spent on Border security. The majority of illegal aliens who are from latin America arent using sailboats, Some here and there are but they are overstaying their visa or hopping a fence or being smuggled thru a semi

College for everyone? Where does it stop do you want to provide a nanny state cradle to grave society? As far as veterans, they earned their benefits some welfare queen WARNING WARNING ILLEGAL ALIEN REFERENCE WILL BE USED!!! Or an illegal alien to have another anchoir baby and not pay a dime be entitled to your money?

[TheMojoPin]

This might be an option for a few years maybe 10-20 years but eventually the main goal is for single payer. Why dont they just say they want single payer? They re word these programs and eventually it morphes into a massive monstrosity

Look at medicare when it was passed back in 65, Its now swelled to about 400 billion dollars annually. Look how social security is being driven into the ground. Some programs like this may have started out with good intentions but look at the unintended consequences. Even if there isnt single payer and the public option becomes like Fannie/Freddie 50 years down the road that might need a multi hundred billion dollar bailout

What?!? Medicare has swelled to huge levels after the largest generation in American history started retiring and hitting old age? NO WAY. MY MIND IS BLOWN.

[TheMojoPin]

If the government would stop spending on unnecssary wars, eliminate some cabinet posts like DHS and the Dept of Education that money could be spent on Border security. The majority of illegal aliens who are from latin America arent using sailboats, Some here and there are but they are overstaying their visa or hopping a fence or being smuggled thru a semi

College for everyone? Where does it stop do you want to provide a nanny state cradle to grave society? As far as veterans, they earned their benefits some welfare queen WARNING WARNING ILLEGAL ALIEN REFERENCE WILL BE USED!!! Or an illegal alien to have another anchoir baby and not pay a dime be entitled to your money?

Hah! "Welfare queen?" Ah, here we go again, another political myth/urban legend that you've bought into full tilt.

I also like how your're allergic to a "nanny state" (nevermind that an idealized situation with access to some kind of post-high school education for more people would actually help all of us) but you think an indefinite domestic military deployment/occupation is just hunky-dory, wouldn't cost all that much. How the hell do you propose paying for anything with that kind of deployment? Wouldn't it make much more sense to want to reform the actual immigration process itself?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

What?!? Medicare has swelled to huge levels after the largest generation in American history started retiring and hitting old age? NO WAY. MY MIND IS BLOWN.

When close to 40% pay no federal income taxes thats a problem.

[TheMojoPin]

When close to 40% pay no federal income taxes thats a problem.

They already paid into the system to get this.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Hah! "Welfare queen?" Ah, here we go again, another political myth/urban legend that you've bought into full tilt.

I also like how your're allergic to a "nanny state" (nevermind that an idealized situation with access to some kind of post-high school education for more people would actually help all of us) but you think an indefinite domestic military deployment/occupation is just hunky-dory, wouldn't cost all that much. How the hell do you propose paying for anything with that kind of deployment? Wouldn't it make much more sense to want to reform the actual immigration process itself?

Get the government out of the student loan business and college tuition would drop like a rock You want some Fannie/Freddie GSE for education too? Lets just print even more money


As far as the national guard on the border whats wrong with that. Certain units can deploy to the border for their 2 weeks active duty. If theres some sort of disaster there are plenty of toher units to assist

They passed this stimulus package. Instead of it going to temporary jobs or hiring teachers which shouldnt be happening because teachers arent federal employees, it should go to finishing the border wall and better survellience along the border

[TheMojoPin]

Get the government out of the student loan business and college tuition would drop like a rock You want some Fannie/Freddie GSE for education too? Lets just print even more money

I didn't actually say it's something we can do at this point, hence the use of the word "idealized."

I supposed it was too much to expect you to get the idea of using a hypothetical as a comparison to your desire for higher taxes if it was going to the military.

The point is that you're not opposed to higher taxes: you're just opposed to higher taxes for certain things, nevermind if we actually see any kind of return on those taxes. At least more education and health care would result in a more educated/skilled and healthier workforce. (And yes, I fully realize that the armed forces do provide a great number of useful and productive skills to many of those who serve).

As far as the national guard on the border whats wrong with that. Certain units can deploy to the border for their 2 weeks active duty. If theres some sort of disaster there are plenty of toher units to assist

As it's been pointed out it's not simply a matter of securing the southern border, and even if it was you seem to have no care whatsoever even just what the cost of an indefinite, fulltime militarization of that border alone would be. You constabtly bemoan and decry the "cost to you" of illegals yet don't seem to care at all about the cost of occupying our own borders. You'd have to drastically expand the security of our coasts and would ultimately have to secure the northern border as well since it's even more porous and much larger than the southern one. How do you reconcile the enormous cost of all this when your main issue with illegals seem to be financial ones? How can you care about "costs" one second and then completely toss them out the window when it comes to your solution?

[Serpico1103]

Lets tear it all down and rebuild.
It is what the founding fathers did with the Articles of Confederation; a treasonous act.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I didn't actually say it's something we can do at this point, hence the use of the word "idealized."

I supposed it was too much to expect you to get the idea of using a hypothetical as a comparison to your desire for higher taxes if it was going to the military.

The point is that you're not opposed to higher taxes: you're just opposed to higher taxes for certain things, nevermind if we actually see any kind of return on those taxes. At least more education and health care would result in a more educated/skilled and healthier workforce. (And yes, I fully realize that the armed forces do provide a great number of useful and productive skills to many of those who serve).



As it's been pointed out it's not simply a matter of securing the southern border, and even if it was you seem to have no care whatsoever even just what the cost of an indefinite, fulltime militarization of that border alone would be. You constabtly bemoan and decry the "cost to you" of illegals yet don't seem to care at all about the cost of occupying our own borders. You'd have to drastically expand the security of our coasts and would ultimately have to secure the northern border as well since it's even more porous and much larger than the southern one. How do you reconcile the enormous cost of all this when your main issue with illegals seem to be financial ones? How can you care about "costs" one second and then completely toss them out the window when it comes to your solution?


Our problem isnt with Canadians coming over the northern border. If the Borders were guarded heavily it would deter anyone from trying to cross over illegally. The money spent on border security is way less than we are spending on illegals and their anchor babies today with entitlements, education incarceration , healthcare and welfare

Theres no opposition with wanting an educated society but subsidizing people and allowing "free" college for everyone will bust the budget even more

[Serpico1103]

Our problem isnt with Canadians coming over the northern border. If the Borders were guarded heavily it would deter anyone from trying to cross over illegally. The money spent on border security is way less than we are spending on illegals and their anchor babies today with entitlements, education incarceration , healthcare and welfare
Theres no opposition with wanting an educated society but subsidizing people and allowing "free" college for everyone will bust the budget even more

I think you missed his point.
He was not calling for free education. He asked what makes your request for "heavily guarded borders" more important than someone else willing to pay for "free college."

Yes, keeping illegals out will lower our costs in caring for them. While educating the populace will make us more productive.
Unfortunately, you see every decision as an individual isolated one. "How will this affect me?"
That is not the approach to take. "How does this affect society?" That is the important question.

[TheMojoPin]

I think you missed his point.
He was not calling for free education. He asked what makes your request for "heavily guarded borders" more important than someone else willing to pay for "free college."

Yes. I'm not calling for "free college" now any more than I'm calling for single pay health care: neither are feasable at this point in time.

[TheMojoPin]

Our problem isnt with Canadians coming over the northern border. If the Borders were guarded heavily it would deter anyone from trying to cross over illegally. The money spent on border security is way less than we are spending on illegals and their anchor babies today with entitlements, education incarceration , healthcare and welfare

You're not looking at this in a "big" enough way. The issue with the northern border would not be with Canadians crossing over. If you effectively shut down the southern border that just makes the coasts and the northern border the avenues that people are going to use to get in to bypass our horrendously run immigration system. Even if you lock down the coasts as you expect (nevermind that that's a VERY far cry from what we have now and what the Coast Guard would be able to provide on their own even fully deployed), then that makes the northern border the way in. If you think there's an issue with a porous border down south, my God, do not look to the north: look how much bigger it is than the soputhern border and look how much of it is nothing except wide open spaces where one step you're in Canada and the next you're in the U.S.. Instead of people spending money to get across the southern border or to be snuck in via the coasts you'd have people scraping together what they have to get the necessary documents, real or fake, to get to Canada and then simply walk across the border. Shutting down the southern border would in no way staunch the tide of people that are desperate to get here however they can. You'd have to eventually lock down the northern border as well. Between securing both the northern and southern borders and the coasts you'd not only have to utilize all of the National Guard and the Coast Guard but also the military as well. You'd very likely have to come up with some kind of compulsory military service programs to even have a hope of manning all of this plus still having some kind of functioning military and Coast Guard and National Guard outside of simply securing the borders, nevermind the absurd costs of such an undertaking.

Again, I ask you, why are you so opposed to pushing for reform of the immigration process itself as opposed to using the military to secure our borders and coasts?

[Serpico1103]

Again, I ask you, why are you so opposed to pushing for reform of the immigration process itself as opposed to using the military to secure our borders and coasts?

Because reforming a system isn't a useful platform for fear mongers.
You want to be afraid, think about auto accidents and heart conditions.
Not, illegal aliens and terrorists.

[badmonkey]

You're not looking at this in a "big" enough way. The issue with the northern border would not be with Canadians crossing over. If you effectively shut down the southern border that just makes the coasts and the northern border the avenues that people are going to use to get in to bypass our horrendously run immigration system. Even if you lock down the coasts as you expect (nevermind that that's a VERY far cry from what we have now and what the Coast Guard would be able to provide on their own even fully deployed), then that makes the northern border the way in. If you think there's an issue with a porous border down south, my God, do not look to the north: look how much bigger it is than the soputhern border and look how much of it is nothing except wide open spaces where one step you're in Canada and the next you're in the U.S.. Instead of people spending money to get across the southern border or to be snuck in via the coasts you'd have people scraping together what they have to get the necessary documents, real or fake, to get to Canada and then simply walk across the border. Shutting down the southern border would in no way staunch the tide of people that are desperate to get here however they can. You'd have to eventually lock down the northern border as well. Between securing both the northern and southern borders and the coasts you'd not only have to utilize all of the National Guard and the Coast Guard but also the military as well. You'd very likely have to come up with some kind of compulsory military service programs to even have a hope of manning all of this plus still having some kind of functioning military and Coast Guard and National Guard outside of simply securing the borders, nevermind the absurd costs of such an undertaking.

Again, I ask you, why are you so opposed to pushing for reform of the immigration process itself as opposed to using the military to secure our borders and coasts?

Most of us want the borders secured combined with immigration reform. The main immigration reform I would like to see is shipping off thieves, rapists, and murderers back to their countries when we catch them and discover they're here illegally.

[TheMojoPin]

Most of us want the borders secured combined with immigration reform.

Borders secured to what degree? To actually "secure" them effectively you'd have to be going to the lengths I described. I wouldn't mind more border security, but to actually lock them down is all but impossible short of a massive military and financial investment easily on par with the costs of health care reform that so many are scoffing at.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Most of us want the borders secured combined with immigration reform. The main immigration reform I would like to see is shipping off thieves, rapists, and murderers back to their countries when we catch them and discover they're here illegally.

Theres also a huge problem of drunken illegals getting behind the wheel. Many driving with no insurace or registration

[Serpico1103]

Theres also a huge problem of drunken illegals getting behind the wheel. Many driving with no insurace or registration

Then having heart attacks while planting dirty bombs in subways after officiating a gay marriage during an abortion of a late term baby before getting a vaccine meant for a veteran.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Then having heart attacks while planting dirty bombs in subways after officiating a gay marriage during an abortion of a late term baby before getting a vaccine meant for a veteran.

Maybe its not a problem where you live but where I used to live in Westchester Cty Many times I would read about illegals mostly from Guatemala driving drunk and wthout a license and registration One drunk illegal dirtbag mowed down a mother and daughter at 5pm while she was coming out of dance school this was in Brewster about an hrs drive from NYC, Turns out his employer and landlord provided the vehicle for the drunk as she is just as guilty

Why not add while sneaking into Lakers games wearing a Clippers Jersey trying to get Nicholsons autograph when its actually John Mayer

Most illegals aren't intelligent enough of doing any of those things they have a 2nd grade education at most. How can they read a bible or Koran ?

[yojimbo7248]

Theres also a huge problem of drunken illegals getting behind the wheel. Many driving with no insurace or registration

This is a huge problem? What percentage of DUI's in the US are illegals? Is this the liberal media hiding the ugly truth out of fear of being politically incorrect? I guess I need to watch more Lou Dobbs

[Serpico1103]

Why not add while sneaking into Lakers games wearing a Clippers Jersey trying to get Nicholsons autograph when its actually John Mayer

Most aren't intelligent enough of doing any of those things they have a 2nd grade education at most. How can they read a bible or Koran ?

What does reading the bible or Koran have to do with being an illegal alien?

I bet the percentage of Christians that actually understand, in any sense the Bible, is less than 1%. The other 99% rely on others to tell them what the Bible says.

Todays, "an eye for an eye" discussion was a good example. Everyone has heard the saying, but very few know the context or meaning of it. But, that does not stop people from quoting it in support of their beliefs.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

This is a huge problem? What percentage of DUI's in the US are illegals? Is this the liberal media hiding the ugly truth out of fear of being politically incorrect? I guess I need to watch more Lou Dobbs

Soy oure making excuses for these illegals? You just proved my point thank you!! We have enough drunks on the road who are US Citizens we dont need any more especially people unlicensed and illiterate in 2 languages who cant read signs

[yojimbo7248]

I find anger, hatred toward illegals an urban vs. rural US thing. Even Republicans I know here in NYC are pretty tolerant of illegals. They know the city would grind to a halt without the hard work of illegals. They definitely give more than they take in urban America.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

What does reading the bible or Koran have to do with being an illegal alien?

I bet the percentage of Christians that actually understand, in any sense the Bible, is less than 1%. The other 99% rely on others to tell them what the Bible says.

Todays, "an eye for an eye" discussion was a good example. Everyone has heard the saying, but very few know the context or meaning of it. But, that does not stop people from quoting it in support of their beliefs.

You tried to make some silly comment with your post saying

Then having heart attacks while planting dirty bombs in subways after officiating a gay marriage during an abortion of a late term baby before getting a vaccine meant for a veteran.

Illegal aliens for the most part are illiterate. Uusually Jihadis read the koran before doing gods will and In order to perform a marriage a priest/reverend needs to read from the bible

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I find anger, hatred toward illegals an urban vs. rural US thing. Even Republicans I know here in NYC are pretty tolerant of illegals. They know the city would grind to a halt without the hard work of illegals. They definitely give more than they take in urban America.

I never lived in a Rural area . I grew up outside of NYC and I now live in CT in fact illegals are settling more in the suburbs. Slumlords can rent flophouses to illegals. A 2 family house now houses 50 people and the landlord makes a killing

How are illegals contributing when they dont contribute to te tax base? Buying diapers and beer big deal!!! Guess what? The contributors like me are paying taxes on many different layers, but yet they are using more social services than they contribute to. Who paid for all the anchor babies? You think its them?

Democrats love illegals because its a potential future voting base for the, Repubs like McCain, Bush Graham, Newt love the cheap labor

[Serpico1103]

You tried to make some silly comment with your post saying:
"Then having heart attacks while planting dirty bombs in subways after officiating a gay marriage during an abortion of a late term baby before getting a vaccine meant for a veteran."
Illegal aliens for the most part are illiterate. Uusually Jihadis read the koran before doing gods will and In order to perform a marriage a priest/reverend needs to read from the bible

Wait, you meant this seriously, "Theres also a huge problem of drunken illegals getting behind the wheel. Many driving with no insurace or registration?"

Wow, I apologize. :wallbash:

[yojimbo7248]

I was just talking in general about the immigration issue based on my experience here in the city. I know plenty of Wall Street Republican types here in NYC who can't stand Obama and Democrats in general but they just don't get riled up about illegal immigrants. they tend to see illegals as serving an economic need by either working in restaurants, small businesses.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I was just talking in general about the immigration issue based on my experience here in the city. I know plenty of Wall Street Republican types here in NYC who can't stand Obama and Democrats in general but they just don't get riled up about illegal immigrants. they tend to see illegals as serving an economic need by either working in restaurants, small businesses.

Or mowing their lawns

[yojimbo7248]

Or mowing their lawns

yeah, exactly. There is an economic niche for illegals. Mowing lawns is one of them.

[yojimbo7248]

One of the things I agree with Republicans on is their respect for free trade, including labor flow based on the market rather than government stipulations. I don't get the Lou Dobbs wing of the GOP and their anger at illegals. Poor Hispanics who are illegally coming into the US are being excellent capitalists, Ayn Rand would be proud.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Wait, you meant this seriously, "Theres also a huge problem of drunken illegals getting behind the wheel. Many driving with no insurace or registration?"

Wow, I apologize. :wallbash:

Apology accepted

I have a lot of friends who are cops in W'Chester and a lot of the DWI's are people who are illegal. Especially when theres no work in this downturn they are hitting the bottle more and more. Put that on top of being away from their home countries, many of them pass time to drown their sorrows by drinking

[WRESTLINGFAN]

One of the things I agree with Republicans on is their respect for free trade, including labor flow based on the market rather than government stipulations. I don't get the Lou Dobbs wing of the GOP and their anger at illegals. Poor Hispanics who are illegally coming into the US are being excellent capitalists, Ayn Rand would be proud.

Illegals coming here are being exploited by their bosses. They provide no disability, they pay them in cash, there are no taxes taken out in many cases

NAFTA snd CAFTA was one of the worst policies ever put into place

[Serpico1103]

Apology accepted

I have a lot of friends who are cops in W'Chester and a lot of the DWI's are people who are illegal. Especially when theres no work in this downturn they are hitting the bottle more and more. Put that on top of being away from their home countries, many of them pass time to drown their sorrows by drinking

I was being sarcastic, but enjoy the apology.
I will have to respectfully disagree that illegal immigrants drunk driving is a "huge" problem for the nation. Sorry, I put it rather low on the list. But, I do think our driving and eating habits, that includes citizens, are a much bigger threat to us than terrorists or illegals.

[yojimbo7248]

Illegals coming here are being exploited by their bosses. They provide no disability, they pay them in cash, there are no taxes taken out in many cases.

Since I believe in capitalism and free trade, I think it is perfectly reasonable and needed for poor Hispanics to come to the US to work in the low income jobs like lawn mowing and washing dishes in restaurants.

I don't like, however, that they exploited by their bosses. They are the most vulnerable people in our country because the fear of deportation keeps them from standing up for themselves. I think we should grant immediate citizenship to all illegals who are currently employed.

[Serpico1103]

Since I believe in capitalism and free trade, I think it is perfectly reasonable and needed for poor Hispanics to come to the US to work in the low income jobs like lawn mowing and washing dishes in restaurants.

I don't like, however, that they exploited by their bosses. They are the most vulnerable people in our country because the fear of deportation keeps them from standing up for themselves. I think we should grant immediate citizenship to all illegals who are currently employed.

I think we should jail every employer who has over 10 illegals working for them. The others should be fined heavily.
These people, the employers, are the most unpatriotic part of society; they are avoiding taxes, they are exploiting other people, they are creating a security risk, they lower wages for citizens.

[TheMojoPin]

I think we should jail every employer who has over 10 illegals working for them. The others should be fined heavily.
These people, the employers, are the most unpatriotic part of society; they are avoiding taxes, they are exploiting other people, they are creating a security risk, they lower wages for citizens.

What are you, high? Things like this and reforming the immigration process are crazy talk. Rounding up the illegals, building a wall and militarizing the borders, now THAT makes much more sense!

[badmonkey]

What are you, high? Things like this and reforming the immigration process are crazy talk. Rounding up the illegals, building a wall and militarizing the borders, now THAT makes much more sense!

Well how bout we just annex Mexico and Canada and call it a fuckin' day?

[yojimbo7248]

I think we should jail every employer who has over 10 illegals working for them. The others should be fined heavily.
These people, the employers, are the most unpatriotic part of society; they are avoiding taxes, they are exploiting other people, they are creating a security risk, they lower wages for citizens.

I agree. My wife is a foreigner. The company that hired her paid for her working visa and all the benefits that her US counterparts received. the difference is that she is a white Brit. Companies are getting away with treating Mexicans like shit because they are poor and brown. They are just as needed to pick our fruit, wash our dishes, do the shittiest jobs in our slaughterhouses, etc. as my professional UK wife is needed by her company.

[TheMojoPin]

Well how bout we just annex Mexico and Canada and call it a fuckin' day?

Damn right.

[yojimbo7248]

Class and race are huge factors in the immigration debate that isn't getting addressed enough. Where is the outrage over the white European illegals? They exist and many work as bartenders and other lower level jobs

[Serpico1103]

What are you, high? Things like this and reforming the immigration process are crazy talk. Rounding up the illegals, building a wall and militarizing the borders, now THAT makes much more sense!

Again, "punishing" the small business owner (the pride of the republican party) does not make for good "journalism." Isn't it better for a "news" show to show pictures of men in military gear roaming the border "securing" us?
I need to be scared and then told that the military is the answer to my and the world's problems. That is how I stay comfortable.

[yojimbo7248]

I'm too lazy to go back and figure out how this thread went from a Gregory Joseph "politics is unnecessarily seeing the world as divided went it is actually unified" type post to this immigration discussion. kind of funny, though

[TheMojoPin]

I'm too lazy to go back and figure out how this thread went from a Gregory Joseph "politics is unnecessarily seeing the world as divided went it is actually unified" type post to this immigration discussion. kind of funny, though

He'll claim it was his plan all along.

Though it's all WF's fault.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Class and race are huge factors in the immigration debate that isn't getting addressed enough. Where is the outrage over the white European illegals? They exist and many work as bartenders and other lower level jobs

I posted in the immigration thread that I am opposed to all illegal immigration. Yes I agree there are a lot of Irish , Albanian and Russians living illegally all over NYC. Theres no denying that.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I was being sarcastic, but enjoy the apology.
I will have to respectfully disagree that illegal immigrants drunk driving is a "huge" problem for the nation. Sorry, I put it rather low on the list. But, I do think our driving and eating habits, that includes citizens, are a much bigger threat to us than terrorists or illegals.

I wish you well and hope you don't get ran over by a fat suburban soccermom in a minivan chomping on a donut

[TheMojoPin]

I hope you accidentally fall onto your immigrant catapult.

[epo]

He'll claim it was his plan all along.

Though it's all WF's fault.

I'm starting to think that GJ and WF are the same person.

[boosterp]

I find anger, hatred toward illegals an urban vs. rural US thing. Even Republicans I know here in NYC are pretty tolerant of illegals. They know the city would grind to a halt without the hard work of illegals. They definitely give more than they take in urban America.

I wanted to add to this post.

Houston is what is called a harbor city where our cops can not ask immigration status unless they are being booked for a major offence. We have some of the highest uninsured motorist coverage in the US. This is attributed to the high number here driving without insurance, but only a fraction maybe not even 50% are illegals doing it. If we pulled all the illegals out of the Houston area everything from home building to contract ditch diggers would suffer and prices on things like homes would rise.

Where I am conflicted is that they are here illegally, broke the law. Let's finally streamline the immigration process.

[hanso]

http://i.fhqhosting.com/hitler%20hippie%20funny.jpg
WF is right.
It's true.

[TheMojoPin]

Where I am conflicted is that they are here illegally, broke the law. Let's finally streamline the immigration process.

Basically my stance on the whole thing. I am in no way happy that people are breaking the law in this manner, but the reality is the majority of them are providing necessary services and roles by being here. We need to reform the immigration process itself so we can "maximize" immigration into our country.

[boosterp]

Basically my stance on the whole thing. I am in no way happy that people are breaking the law in this manner, but the reality is the majority of them are providing necessary services and roles by being here. We need to reform the immigration process itself so we can "maximize" immigration into our country.

Jebus I can't beleive I am quoting or agreeing with you. :tongue:

Other countries to include Mexico are much tougher on immigration especially in the area of home or property ownership. My ex and I were thinkng of using my vet pension and getting another home in Mexico, but even if I became a Mexican citizen, lived there for years, I still could not own a home there, vote there, or have full access to medical. I do unnderstand some of the conservative's arguments, but at the same time this is not Mexico. My grandparents and great grandparents came into this country in the early 1900s, a whole different time from now. We have only fucked up the immigration system in the past 20 years, not helped it.

[TheMojoPin]

I don't understand why you're always acting so weird around me. Who the hell are you? Did we have a lovers' spat or something?

[Dude!]

I don't understand why you're always acting so weird around me. Who the hell are you?

oh gawd
here we go
he's giving poor boosterp
the grlNIN "you must be new here"
treatment!

[high fly]

Jebus I can't beleive I am quoting or agreeing with you. :tongue:

Other countries to include Mexico are much tougher on immigration especially in the area of home or property ownership. My ex and I were thinkng of using my vet pension and getting another home in Mexico, but even if I became a Mexican citizen, lived there for years, I still could not own a home there, vote there, or have full access to medical. I do unnderstand some of the conservative's arguments, but at the same time this is not Mexico. My grandparents and great grandparents came into this country in the early 1900s, a whole different time from now. We have only fucked up the immigration system in the past 20 years, not helped it.

They still do that hat dance down there?

[Fez4PrezN2008]

I think political parties should be disbanded.

Why label people?

Let candidates speak about their views on a myriad of topics and let the people decide whose viewpoints they most agree with.
Gvac, that's just silly. How would I know who to hate without doing a bunch of research then?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Jebus I can't beleive I am quoting or agreeing with you. :tongue:

Other countries to include Mexico are much tougher on immigration especially in the area of home or property ownership. My ex and I were thinkng of using my vet pension and getting another home in Mexico, but even if I became a Mexican citizen, lived there for years, I still could not own a home there, vote there, or have full access to medical. I do unnderstand some of the conservative's arguments, but at the same time this is not Mexico. My grandparents and great grandparents came into this country in the early 1900s, a whole different time from now. We have only fucked up the immigration system in the past 20 years, not helped it.

Theres always California

[TheMojoPin]

oh gawd
here we go
he's giving poor boosterp
the grlNIN "you must be new here"
treatment!

He's clearly not new, but I honestly don't remember any kind of conversation with him along the lines that he seems to be implying.

Are you the Dude from YMB?

[boosterp]

I don't understand why you're always acting so weird around me. Who the hell are you? Did we have a lovers' spat or something?

They still do that hat dance down there?

Fuck you.

Theres always California

I hope you die now.

He's clearly not new, but I honestly don't remember any kind of conversation with him along the lines that he seems to be implying.

Are you the Dude from YMB?

Nah, just from the Shelter crap.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Fuck you.



I hope you die now.



Nah, just from the Shelter crap.

Fuck going to Mexico, youre in Texas, thats close enough

[high fly]

Jebus I can't beleive I am quoting or agreeing with you. :tongue:

Other countries to include Mexico are much tougher on immigration especially in the area of home or property ownership. My ex and I were thinkng of using my vet pension and getting another home in Mexico, but even if I became a Mexican citizen, lived there for years, I still could not own a home there, vote there, or have full access to medical. I do unnderstand some of the conservative's arguments, but at the same time this is not Mexico. My grandparents and great grandparents came into this country in the early 1900s, a whole different time from now. We have only fucked up the immigration system in the past 20 years, not helped it.


Can you send me some of those jumping beans they got down there?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Keep those Pesky Guatemalans and Salvedorans out. Mexico doesnt want illegals in their country

[high fly]

Can you send me some of those jumping beans they got down there?



................................ or one of those giant sombreros. No rush, after you get done with your "siesta.".........

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I want the best seats in the house for the bullfighting and a nice Senorita to fuck the hell outta me after that in my hacienda

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I want the best seats in the house for the bullfighting and a nice Senorita to fuck the hell outta me after that in my hacienda

And I hope this song is blasting

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkHFjm_9iew

[TheMojoPin]

Nah, just from the Shelter crap.

What Shelter crap? I've never posted in there. I just hate it from afar.

[GregoryJoseph]

Keep worshiping your anointed ones, you ideologues.

One day you'll see the absurdity in it all.

[high fly]

I want the best seats in the house for the bullfighting and a nice Senorita to fuck the hell outta me after that in my hacienda

Better make sure Zorro's not sweet on her, you could end up with a 'Z' slashed across your rump.....

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Better make sure Zorro's not sweet on her, you could end up with a 'Z' slashed across your rump.....

I will have a few Luchadors to kick his ass

[epo]

Keep worshiping your anointed ones, you ideologues.

One day you'll see the absurdity in it all.

Finally....the bumper sticker cliches that I've come to hate from GJ.

[high fly]

I will have a few Luchadors to kick his ass

you and what Luchador army?
No way you're kicking Zorro's ass, especially if he calls in the Cisco Kid and Pancho....

[WRESTLINGFAN]

you and what Luchador army?
No way you're kicking Zorro's ass, especially if he calls in the Cisco Kid and Pancho....

I can always bribe them with some Patron Tequila and Dos Equis

[high fly]

I can always bribe them with some Patron Tequila and Dos Equis

Pancho got more of that shit than you could ever dream about, my "amigo"

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Pancho got more of that shit than you could ever dream about, my "amigo"

From Santeria By Sublime

Tell sanchito that if he knows what is good for him he best go run and hide.
Daddy's got a new .45.
and I won't think twice to stick that barrel straight down sancho's throat.
Believe me when I say that I got somethin for his punk ass.

He can relay the message to Pancho too

[hanso]

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@ 92 Sen. Byrd will run you down with his rascal if you cross him on the floor.

[conman823]

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@ 92 Sen. Byrd will run you down with his rascal if you cross him on the floor.

The only reason he's been there so long is because he's the only person in West Virginia that can read.

[A.J.]

@ 92 Sen. Byrd will run you down with his rascal if you cross him on the floor.

He probably had Rascal corporate headquarters moved to West Virginia.

[TheMojoPin]

Ugh, Byrd. Why couldn't he and Strom have kicked it together?

[A.J.]

Ugh, Byrd. Why couldn't he and Strom have kicked it together?

He's not done suckling the American teat on behalf of West Virginia. There's a whole lot more Appropriatin' to do!

[WRESTLINGFAN]

He's not done suckling the American teat on behalf of West Virginia. There's a whole lot more Appropriatin' to do!

When he finally kicks over, nothing will be named after him in WV, They took care of that while hes alive

[epo]

He's not done suckling the American teat on behalf of West Virginia. There's a whole lot more Appropriatin' to do!

Absolutely. Which is why West Virginia keeps electing that crazy old man.

[GregoryJoseph]

Absolutely. Which is why West Virginia keeps electing that crazy old man.

Absolutely.

Which is why we need term limits.

Thank you.

[TheMojoPin]

Absolutely.

Which is why we need term limits.

Thank you.

You're so anti-state.

[hanso]

Absolutely.

Which is why we need term limits.

Thank you.

We need to hold rascal derbies on the floor.
Cspan ratings would climb through the roof.

[high fly]

@ 92 Sen. Byrd will run you down with his rascal if you cross him on the floor.

He probably had Rascal corporate headquarters moved to West Virginia.


.................. and had it located in the Robert KKK Byrd office complex, just off Robert KKK Byrd Parkway.
I do not think he is an argument for term limits, quite the contrary.
If you go back and listen to his speech to the Senate opposing the vote for force in Iraq, he sounds downright psychic in what he foresaw......

[epo]

Absolutely.

Which is why we need term limits.

Thank you.

States all make their choice on their senators every 6 years. If they don't like them, they "term limit" their ass out.

Why do you hate the "will of the people" so much?

[GregoryJoseph]

States all make their choice on their senators every 6 years. If they don't like them, they "term limit" their ass out.

Why do you hate the "will of the people" so much?

Because the "will of the people" of a certain state translates into more pork barrel spending for the rest of the states.

The needs of the many...

[high fly]

Because the "will of the people" of a certain state translates into more pork barrel spending for the rest of the states.

The needs of the many...


May be addressed by the many working with the system handed down by the Founding Fathers.

Try doing things the American Way for a change. You'll like it, if you just give it a shot.
In this case, you have a fantastic historic model to follow in how or system works and what to do in such a situation.
50 years ago, people outside the South objected to racist politicians there and so they organized voter registration drives, held civil rights marches, provided legal representation and did many other things to further the cause they believed in.
Those outside of West Virginia may likewise organize and send people into West Virginia to bring about democratic change using our democratic system, JUST THE WAY IT WAS DESIGNED!

I can assure you, Mr. Joseph, once you get the hang of doing things democratically, The American Way, and trusting the American people, you'll fing it not just refreshing, but fun, too!

[epo]

Mr Joseph wants his brand of "democracy" delivered to him, but he doesn't want to work for it. His personal sloth apparent as he is nothing more than the kid who "spitballs" in the back of class and then complains about the quality of the teacher.

Let's face it, his politics suck.

[A.J.]

The needs of the many...

Not always.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2718/4021512392_143f827ab3.jpg

[GregoryJoseph]

When a politician is in as long as Byrd, he also winds up being in the back pocket of some special interest group or corporation as a result of dealing with them so much through the years.

It isn't long before he's not serving the needs of the many in his state, but rather the one (or ones) who put the most money in his election fund.

[epo]

When a politician is in as long as Byrd, he also winds up being in the back pocket of some special interest group or corporation as a result of dealing with them so much through the years.

It isn't long before he's not serving the needs of the many in his state, but rather the one (or ones) who put the most money in his election fund.

Could you generalize some more for us?

[GregoryJoseph]

Could you generalize some more for us?

"I shall never fight in the armed forces with a Negro by my side... Rather I should die a thousand times, and see Old Glory trampled in the dirt never to rise again, than to see this beloved land of ours become degraded by race mongrels, a throwback to the blackest specimen from the wilds."

— Robert C. Byrd

You just like having one of them on your side.

[TheMojoPin]

"I shall never fight in the armed forces with a Negro by my side... Rather I should die a thousand times, and see Old Glory trampled in the dirt never to rise again, than to see this beloved land of ours become degraded by race mongrels, a throwback to the blackest specimen from the wilds."

— Robert C. Byrd

You just like having one of them on your side.

That's the only reason I've always wanted him out of office.

Beyond that, being able to have an experienced "career congressman" is the best thing possible for each state in terms of allocating jobs, money, resources, etc.. Forcing a constant reshuffle every few years almot completely negates that. This is the one area where "states rights" actually does hold some key value and you just want to piss all over it.

[underdog]

When a politician is in as long as Byrd, he also winds up being in the back pocket of some special interest group or corporation as a result of dealing with them so much through the years.

It isn't long before he's not serving the needs of the many in his state, but rather the one (or ones) who put the most money in his election fund.

Wouldn't a younger politician be more likely to need and take money from a special interest group? A politician like Byrd has fuck you money and has nothing to lose.

[epo]

Wouldn't a younger politician be more likely to need and take money from a special interest group? A politician like Byrd has fuck you money and has nothing to lose.

Stop trying to be logical with Gvac when it comes to politics.

[GregoryJoseph]

Wouldn't a younger politician be more likely to need and take money from a special interest group? A politician like Byrd has fuck you money and has nothing to lose.

If he couldn't be reelected why would he have to kiss anybody's ass?

And just how does a U.S. Senator have "fuck you" money?

Surely not from his annual salary.

[epo]

If he couldn't be reelected why would he have to kiss anybody's ass?

And just how does a U.S. Senator have "fuck you" money?

Surely not from his annual salary.

If you are so worried about Senator Byrd's fundraising, you could bother to look it up (http://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/summary.php?cycle=2010&cid=N00002200).

But alas, you won't.

[underdog]

If he couldn't be reelected why would he have to kiss anybody's ass?

And just how does a U.S. Senator have "fuck you" money?

Surely not from his annual salary.

In order to just get elected a politician has to kiss ass of special interest groups in order to raise money.

[hanso]

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This is Steve Colbert at his best.
He covers Billo better than ever here.
With a touch of Glenn Beck.

It's Sesame Street's 40th Birthday

[underdog]

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This is Steve Colbert at his best.
He covers Billo better than ever here.
With a touch of Glenn Beck.

It's Sesame Street's 40th Birthday

This was one of my favorite Colbert moments ever. The scary part is, there's probably people who actually think that.

Also, his splicing together flu shot shortage footage with clips about Eggo shortages made me laugh hard.

[hanso]

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2762/4149330857_e2be9df68d_o.gif

[KC2OSO]

Here's the thing: I agree with this argument to a degree, and do feel that, too often, partisanship keeps us from actually solving any problems.

That said, what I find annoying is that I see so many people saying that politics is stupid, both sides are idiots, etc. etc., but then they only seem to trash one party or the other.

The prime example of this: Bill O'Reilly claims to be an "independent." Yeah, whatever Bill. You've got an elephant tattooed on your ass. Just admit it.




There will never be a middle ground between you and me. :huh:

[hanso]

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It Was The Night Before Christmas And All Through The Senate... Senator Roland Burris

[SP1!]

More parties more better? Or does it dilute the pool?

We need like 18, I think that France has a ton and it seems to make more people happy, at least someone close to their views has a chance, most here consider me a right wing fanatic but if you ask the far right they would say Im too liberal.

Personally Im more of a government keep your nose out of our business guy and keep regulations to a minimum, whenever they fuck with the regulations everything goes to shit as evidenced by the current housing collapse.

[A.J.]

We need like 18, I think that France has a ton and it seems to make more people happy

So does Italy. Of course over there, collapsing governments are an annual tradition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Prime_Ministers_of_Italy#Presidents_of_the _Council_of_Ministers_of_the_Italian_Republic_.281 946-present.29).

[hanso]

We need like 18, I think that France has a ton and it seems to make more people happy, at least someone close to their views has a chance, most here consider me a right wing fanatic but if you ask the far right they would say Im too liberal.

Personally Im more of a government keep your nose out of our business guy and keep regulations to a minimum, whenever they fuck with the regulations everything goes to shit as evidenced by the current housing collapse.

I would differ on that.
The banks/wall street traded bad debt trade offs. Of which there was no regulation being followed. This lead to the housing collapse. Among others as well.

As for many parties it might be like a color chart , or ice cream, something for everyone. Interesting idea