A hearty FU to Chris Stanley!

[booster11373]

For his narrow take on Atheism

[Chigworthy]

Perhaps explain?

[KingGeno]

How about athiets not be annoying like typical atheists, and not believe in things in quiet. It isn't a show.

[booster11373]

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[TripleSkeet]

I never understood the passionate atheist. Its like an oxymoron. Arent you only supposed to be passionate about things you believe in? Getting angry at people that believe in God is like getting mad at kids that believe in the tooth fairy. If you dont believe, you shouldnt even care if others do.

[booster11373]

I never understood the passionate atheist. Its like an oxymoron. Arent you only supposed to be passionate about things you believe in? Getting angry at people that believe in God is like getting mad at kids that believe in the tooth fairy. If you dont believe, you shouldnt even care if others do.

That's not the argument at all. Atheists that I know and the groups that I am part of are not mad at people who believe in a "god" We get mad when that belief intrudes into the public sector with regards to education, health care, diplomacy etc.

I don't care what you believe just don't let your beliefs interfere in my life but that only goes one way because the things I believe unfortunately seems to bother a lot of believers

[Death Metal Moe]

That's not the argument at all. Atheists that I know and the groups that I am part of are not mad at people who believe in a "god" We get mad when that belief intrudes into the public sector with regards to education, health care, diplomacy etc.

I don't care what you believe just don't let your beliefs interfere in my life but that only goes one way because the things I believe unfortunately seems to bother a lot of believers

What he said.

[underdog]

Most vocal atheists are dicks and as annoying as the religious right.

I really don't give a fuck about your beliefs or your non-beliefs. Both of you, shut up.

[K.C.]

Most vocal atheists are dicks and as annoying as the religious right.


Agreed.

[Chigworthy]

I don't care what you believe just don't let your beliefs interfere in my life but that only goes one way because the things I believe unfortunately seems to bother a lot of believers

What he said.
What he said.

What he said.


I really don't give a fuck about your beliefs or your non-beliefs. Both of you, shut up.

What he said.

Agreed.

What he said.

[dereckfishboy]

Most vocal atheists are dicks and as annoying as the religious right.

I really don't give a fuck about your beliefs or your non-beliefs. Both of you, shut up.

A preachy atheist or a preachy Christian is no more obnoxious than preachy liberals and conservatives. No more obnoxious than stuck-up out-spoken movie snobs. No more obnoxious than anyone who has a strong opinion and the desire to make it a topic of conversation. Preachy self-righteous people are obnoxious, whatever their subject. Why bother narrowing it down the specific sub-cultures.....

[Devo37]

For his narrow take on Atheism

amen!!


Getting angry at people that believe in God is like getting mad at kids that believe in the tooth fairy. If you dont believe, you shouldnt even care if others do.

personally, i don't get mad at people who believe in god, i tend to laugh at them, the same way i would laugh at an adult who still believes in the tooth fairy.


I never understood the passionate atheist. Its like an oxymoron. Arent you only supposed to be passionate about things you believe in?

activist atheists can be quite annoying, like the guy who keeps suing to get "under god" taken out of the Pledge of Allegiance.
Yes, i think it's constitutionally questionable that "under god" was inserted in the pledge, and "in god we trust" is on our currency, but it's really not worth my time or effort to care much about stupid shit like that.

[Bob Impact]

That's not the argument at all. Atheists that I know and the groups that I am part of are not mad at people who believe in a "god" We get mad when that belief intrudes into the public sector with regards to education, health care, diplomacy etc.

I don't care what you believe just don't let your beliefs interfere in my life but that only goes one way because the things I believe unfortunately seems to bother a lot of believers

I'm not going to argue that atheists interfere as much as religious people do because they simply don't. But let me answer this by telling a story. Sarah's grandfather is a pastor and will be performing our wedding ceremony, when I was asked if I would be OK with a quick "May God bless this wedding" or whatever I had no problem with it. To me it's like saying "May Mickey Mouse bless this wedding" I have the exact same level of belief in the reality of the two. Point is, if you don't believe in something why would you spend time caring about it at all?

[underdog]

A preachy atheist or a preachy Christian is no more obnoxious than preachy liberals and conservatives. No more obnoxious than stuck-up out-spoken movie snobs. No more obnoxious than anyone who has a strong opinion and the desire to make it a topic of conversation. Preachy self-righteous people are obnoxious, whatever their subject. Why bother narrowing it down the specific sub-cultures.....

I agree with everything you said.

activist atheists can be quite annoying, like the guy who keeps suing to get "under god" taken out of the Pledge of Allegiance.
Yes, i think it's constitutionally questionable that "under god" was inserted in the pledge, and "in god we trust" is on our currency, but it's really not worth my time or effort to care much about stupid shit like that.



Yeah, I never got that. It would be like it "gobbledygock" was on our currency. It's just completely meaningless to me.

[underdog]

I'm not going to argue that atheists interfere as much as religious people do because they simply don't. But let me answer this by telling a story. Sarah's grandfather is a pastor and will be performing our wedding ceremony, when I was asked if I would be OK with a quick "May God bless this wedding" or whatever I had no problem with it. To me it's like saying "May Mickey Mouse bless this wedding" I have the exact same level of belief in the reality of the two. Point is, if you don't believe in something why would you spend time caring about it at all?

Hey, I think I just tried to make the exact same point.

[realmenhatelife]

I'm with Tanley. I'd much rather hear someone yell about their religion than hear someone yell about their atheism. Religious people dont even get close to touching the air of superiority a loud atheist can put out.

[Bob Impact]

Hey, I think I just tried to make the exact same point.

I liked your gobbledygock better than my Mickey Mouse.

[underdog]

I liked your gobbledygock better than my Mickey Mouse.

Is that a euphemism?

[Bob Impact]

Is that a euphemism?

I think it technically counts as a triple entendre.

[Serpico1103]

I'm with Tanley. I'd much rather hear someone yell about their religion than hear someone yell about their atheism. Religious people dont even get close to touching the air of superiority a loud atheist can put out.

But, at least the atheists are right.

[booster11373]

I'm with Tanley. I'd much rather hear someone yell about their religion than hear someone yell about their atheism. Religious people dont even get close to touching the air of superiority a loud atheist can put out.

Besides the Internet where do you people encounter atheists? I'm just wondering because over the last year Ive had about a dozen or so people come to my home to tell me about the glory of magic man but Ive never had 1 atheist show up?

The campus where I go to school has had a street preacher show up and preach numerous times, Ive never encountered an atheist in a similar situation

I have on my cable system no less then 4 different religious channels, No dedicated atheist ones!

[Serpico1103]

Besides the Internet where do you people encounter atheists? I'm just wondering because over the last year Ive had about a dozen or so people come to my home to tell me about the glory of magic man but Ive never had 1 atheist show up?
The campus where I go to school has had a street preacher show up and preach numerous times, Ive never encountered an atheist in a similar situation
I have on my cable system no less then 4 different religious channels, No dedicated atheist ones!

I think we have been conditioned to a certain number of religious nuts. But, an atheist nut is an oddity so it stands out in your mind more.
Yes, they can be dicks. Who can't be? But, there most be many more religious loons.

[TripleSkeet]

But, at least the atheists are right.

Better hope so. If the religious people are wrong, its no big deal to them. If the atheists are wrong...well....talk about an OOPS!

[TripleSkeet]

activist atheists can be quite annoying, like the guy who keeps suing to get "under god" taken out of the Pledge of Allegiance.
Yes, i think it's constitutionally questionable that "under god" was inserted in the pledge, and "in god we trust" is on our currency, but it's really not worth my time or effort to care much about stupid shit like that.



Yea thats what Im talking about. Never made much sense to put so much time and energy into changing something thats been around for so long because it mentions something you dont think exists.

At this point its kind of stupid to change it just from a traditionalist standpoint without even bringing religion into it.

[Death Metal Moe]

Ya know, the problem is that all of us feel this way, on paper.

Then, people go to their churches or other houses of worship and start to stick their fucking noses where they don't belong.

This is all really nice talk among like minded people but we need to get others to mind their own fucking business too.

[TripleSkeet]

Ya know, the problem is that all of us feel this way, on paper.

Then, people go to their churches or other houses of worship and start to stick their fucking noses where they don't belong.

This is all really nice talk among like minded people but we need to get others to mind their own fucking business too.

Thank you. Thats was my point. Its amazing how any person can be so arrogant as to KNOW they are right in exactly how the world was created. You are talking about things that happened billions of years ago and yet there are people out there that are 100% positive they are right. On both religious sides and atheist sides.

I believe in God. I cant prove he exists. I wouldnt even pretend to try. And I could never be so bold as to say that I KNOW theres a God and everyone else is wrong. It just amazes me how anyone could be so sure of anything that happened so long ago.

[Melk]

I believe in God. I cant prove he exists. I wouldnt even pretend to try. And I could never be so bold as to say that I KNOW theres a God and everyone else is wrong. It just amazes me how anyone could be so sure of anything that happened so long ago.
I wouldn't profess that you are wrong either, but I don't consider myself an atheist.

I spent my childhood going to church and just didn't get into the idea that the Bible's stories were true or that there is a spiritual being (God) that activated the creation of the universe. I also don't understand how people believe that the Bible is less true or false than Scientology, Greek Mythology or Native American trickster tales.

The Bible has been rewritten, reinterpreted to fit the civilizations that welcome it. Some churches follow the Bible closely, other churches bend the teachings of the Bible to be more culturally relevant. How is The Bible "the word" when King James could re-write the word and preachers can reinterpret the word? Is The Bible a Rorschach test? Is The Bible in one society's hands like the Monolith from "2001" pushing humankind to the next level?

I have a difficult time resolving the idea of a soul when brain damage, dementia and Alzheimer's Disease exist in our reality. When I get to the other-side, would my diminished facilities be reinstated to me? If they weren't reinstated, would I even be in heaven?

Who am I to say there is no God, no Zeus or no volcano full of our dead alien forefathers? I'm not going to call someone stupid for believing in God or not. But, I will also say that I have a difficult time resolving how Shirley Phellps Roeper is wrong while other Christians are less wrong.

The nice thing about atheists is they have no book-of-rules to live up to the standards of. Being an asshole or a gentleman is not defined by any atheist standards.

Honestly, I'd be more prone to believe in the Christian way if there weren't so many off-shoots of the original religion.

[realmenhatelife]

Besides the Internet where do you people encounter atheists? I'm just wondering because over the last year Ive had about a dozen or so people come to my home to tell me about the glory of magic man but Ive never had 1 atheist show up?

The campus where I go to school has had a street preacher show up and preach numerous times, Ive never encountered an atheist in a similar situation

I have on my cable system no less then 4 different religious channels, No dedicated atheist ones!

Anywhere people wind up talking about spirituality.

When a missionary shows up on my door I say 'Thanks, I'm not interested' and close the door. I invest as much emotion into it as when the girlscout in front of the grocery store asks if I want to buy cookies, and I say no.

My cable system has a bunch of channels in languages I dont speak, I dont care because I never put them on.

If you've never heard an atheist start up, and they are indeed preaching when they do, you're really really lucky.

Atleast when the relgious start yapping they're very up front about it and I tune them right out. The atheist is way more smarmy and cocky, and generally very passive aggressive in their agenda. They try and use a very patronizing logic.

That's why I choose the one over the other. I don't want to listen to either of them but a religious person will act like "Oh it's your loss" and an atheist acts like "Oh, you're just stupid."

[DOHO@HOME]

I WISH THEY WOULD TURN THE BIBLE INTO A THREE D MOVIE SAGA.
i LOVE TO ASK QUESTIONS TO THE CHURCH GOERS AND HERE HOW FOOLISH THE TALES OF THE BIBLE SOUND.
NOAH'S ARK IS MY NUMBER ONE STORY THAT MAKES NO SENCE AND WOULD NEVER HAPPEN AND ALWAYS MAKES ME LAUGH WHEN THEY TRY TO EXPLAIN IT.
TALK ABOUT SHEEP, WOW HOW THEY FOLLOW.

[Serpico1103]

That's why I choose the one over the other. I don't want to listen to either of them but a religious person will act like "Oh it's your loss" and an atheist acts like "Oh, you're just stupid."
You protests soldier's funerals, family planning offices, shoots abortion doctors, organizes against gay rights, on and on. It is those sweet passive religious nuts, not the angry atheists.

Religious nuts can't base their claims on intelligence, belief requires faith not knowledge.

[realmenhatelife]

You protests soldier's funerals, family planning offices, shoots abortion doctors, organizes against gay rights, on and on. It is those sweet passive religious nuts, not the angry atheists.

Religious nuts can't base their claims on intelligence, belief requires faith not knowledge.

Those people are extremists and do not represent even the most passionately religious. I'm thinking about which vocal group is the most annoying, I wouldnt deny that psychotic religious people cause more havok than psychotic atheists.

Thats one of the reasons I find atheists so patronizing. A religious person has no interest in logic or intellect for their beliefs, and the atheist critisizes them for it.

[Serpico1103]

I agree somewhat. But I think both sides are to blame for it. Religious people try to make sure science lines up with their beliefs. When they should be saying "I belief in spite of science." If God was proven, religion collapses. There is no longer faith only knowledge.

[sailor]

I invest as much emotion into it as when the girlscout in front of the grocery store asks if I want to buy cookies, and I say no.

you have no soul.

[CountryBob]

Nah Nah nah nah ....God hates you.....poker face

[realmenhatelife]

you have no soul.

I like to bake.

[Melk]

I agree somewhat. But I think both sides are to blame for it. Religious people try to make sure science lines up with their beliefs. When they should be saying "I belief in spite of science." If God was proven, religion collapses. There is no longer faith only knowledge.
I think that organized Christianity took a wrong turn centuries ago when it treated the scientific method as a problem. The ancient Greek philosophers believed that the gods created mathematics. One even suggested that the perfection implied by mathematical solutions were proof that a divine reality exists. Christian churches should see science as a way of better understanding the universe. Perhaps scientific method should be thought as a gift from God.

Again, because atheists lack a Bible dictating the rules of proper atheist behavior, I see the them as easier to forgive for being jerks about their methods. But both the radically religious and the overly mean-spirited atheist are a problem.

The Christians among us who are upset by an angry atheist should turn the other cheek.

[TripleSkeet]

I wouldn't profess that you are wrong either, but I don't consider myself an atheist.

I spent my childhood going to church and just didn't get into the idea that the Bible's stories were true or that there is a spiritual being (God) that activated the creation of the universe. I also don't understand how people believe that the Bible is less true or false than Scientology, Greek Mythology or Native American trickster tales.

The Bible has been rewritten, reinterpreted to fit the civilizations that welcome it. Some churches follow the Bible closely, other churches bend the teachings of the Bible to be more culturally relevant. How is The Bible "the word" when King James could re-write the word and preachers can reinterpret the word? Is The Bible a Rorschach test? Is The Bible in one society's hands like the Monolith from "2001" pushing humankind to the next level?

I have a difficult time resolving the idea of a soul when brain damage, dementia and Alzheimer's Disease exist in our reality. When I get to the other-side, would my diminished facilities be reinstated to me? If they weren't reinstated, would I even be in heaven?

Who am I to say there is no God, no Zeus or no volcano full of our dead alien forefathers? I'm not going to call someone stupid for believing in God or not. But, I will also say that I have a difficult time resolving how Shirley Phellps Roeper is wrong while other Christians are less wrong.

The nice thing about atheists is they have no book-of-rules to live up to the standards of. Being an asshole or a gentleman is not defined by any atheist standards.

Honestly, I'd be more prone to believe in the Christian way if there weren't so many off-shoots of the original religion.

See Im Catholic just by upbringing but I do have alot of issues with church policies and rules. So Im pretty sure I wouldnt be considered a "good catholic" by the church. But I really dont care. Im a pretty firm believer in being a good person and doing what you have to do to get by, as long as you dont hurt anyone.

I dont jump through the crazy hoops the church puts up, especially when they change the rules to suit themselves. To me the church has become a huge coporation run by men. They care more about money and staying in business then they do in following the teachings of Christ. And the extremeists just make it even harder to bear with. Their intolerance and cruelty can be revolting.

But it doesnt shake my faith, and to me thats the most important thing.

[Crispy123]

That's not the argument at all. Atheists that I know and the groups that I am part of are not mad at people who believe in a "god" We get mad when that belief intrudes into the public sector with regards to education, health care, diplomacy etc.

I don't care what you believe just don't let your beliefs interfere in my life but that only goes one way because the things I believe unfortunately seems to bother a lot of believers

If you don't want people's religious beliefs in the public sector then don't use the technology or theory's that go along with them. The written word was used primarily to spread religion and spawned the printing press which, one could argue, led ultimately to the internet. So take your atheist ass offline and go live a totally godless life.

You don't encounter true atheists in everyday life because they would be sociopaths and would most likely be encountered in prison or you wouldn't see them until they flew an airplane into a building.

Most so called "atheists" encountered in everyday life are agnostic at best.

[booster11373]

If you don't want people's religious beliefs in the public sector then don't use the technology or theory's that go along with them. The written word was used primarily to spread religion and spawned the printing press which, one could argue, led ultimately to the internet. So take your atheist ass offline and go live a totally godless life.

You don't encounter true atheists in everyday life because they would be sociopaths and would most likely be encountered in prison or you wouldn't see them until they flew an airplane into a building.

Most so called "atheists" encountered in everyday life are agnostic at best.

Once again not true, the written word was used foremost as a way to record business transactions the rest of your statement seems silly

[Crispy123]

Once again not true, the written word was used foremost as a way to record business transactions the rest of your statement seems silly

Oh you mean like tithing 10% to the church? Yes, thank you for making my point. And further more on the point of business transactions, without religion you are not going to convince people to trade goods and services for slips of paper.

The fact that you are not raising chickens, growing vegetables and milking cows, but are trading time and manpower for a currency, backed by no one really knows what, in a monetary system that is arbitrary and faith based is a testiment to spiritual people instilling that kind of faith on a large population.

The fact that you are typing on a message board and living within the current, plugged in world, listening to a show that is broadcast on a sattelite and still claiming to be atheist is silly.

[booster11373]

Oh you mean like tithing 10% to the church? Yes, thank you for making my point. And further more on the point of business transactions, without religion you are not going to convince people to trade goods and services for slips of paper.

The fact that you are not raising chickens, growing vegetables and milking cows, but are trading time and manpower for a currency, backed by no one really knows what, in a monetary system that is arbitrary and faith based is a testiment to spiritual people instilling that kind of faith on a large population.

The fact that you are typing on a message board and living within the current, plugged in world, listening to a show that is broadcast on a sattelite and still claiming to be atheist is silly.

Once again you seemed misinformed the written word existed before the christian church.
The first examples of "writing" have been in the area formally known as Mesopotamia. Clay tablets with the remains of business tranactions are the most abundent finds but once again you just seem silly

[Crispy123]

Once again you seemed misinformed the written word existed before the christian church.
The first examples of "writing" have been in the area formally known as Mesopotamia. Clay tablets with the remains of business tranactions are the most abundent finds but once again you just seem silly

Well you have blown my theory out of the water. There is no spirituality or religion in the Mesopotamia region of the world.

And my point is that the writing has endured and the advances made in technology are largely attributed to people of faith.

No where have I mentioned Christianity, fool.

[StanUpshaw]

And my point is that the writing has endured and the advances made in technology are largely attributed to people of faith.

That may be your point, but you still have to back it up with some sort of evidence.

[Crispy123]

That may be your point, but you still have to back it up with some sort of evidence.

Crack a history book.


Manuscripts, Books, and Maps: The Printing Press and a Changing World (http://communication.ucsd.edu/bjones/Books/luther.html)

[StanUpshaw]

Crack a history book.


Manuscripts, Books, and Maps: The Printing Press and a Changing World (http://communication.ucsd.edu/bjones/Books/luther.html)

So you're changing your original point from
"The written word was invented for the purpose of proliferating religion."

to
"The proliferation of religion is due in large part to the invention of the printing press."

Yes. I agree.

[Crispy123]

So you're changing your original point from
"The written word was invented for the purpose of proliferating religion."

to
"The proliferation of religion is due in large part to the invention of the printing press."

Yes. I agree.

oh I see what you did there. And its a nice try.

But no Im not changing anything. Both are true.

Another site with an interesting timeline of printed material (http://www.ideafinder.com/history/inventions/printpress.htm)

[StanUpshaw]

No, the first is demonstrably false.

[Crispy123]

No, the first is demonstrably false.

Oh really?



Here's the part where you would present some evidence.

[Serpico1103]

Due to the churches power in both wealth and politically it played a part in many advances in art and science. But it had more to due with the churches power than the people's religious beliefs.

[StanUpshaw]

Oh really?



Here's the part where you would present some evidence.

k.

http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/edition2/literature.php

[Crispy123]

Due to the churches power in both wealth and politically it played a part in many advances in art and science. But it had more to due with the churches power than the people's religious beliefs.

you say tomato I say potato.

Religion and spirituality are responsible for the church's power.

Im not claiming either side is right or wrong in their beliefs, it is purely a matter of faith.

To truly believe there is no God or accountability for your actions would lead you to live a completely different life than most people who claim to be atheist.

[Crispy123]

k.

http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/edition2/literature.php

So you are claiming the Sumarians were actually atheists?

Did you actually read your source?

It totally supports my argument.

The bulk of the compositions in the corpus are, however, written on tablets that date to the 18th century, with many coming from the city of Nibru, the religious centre of Sumer. Uncertainties remain about when much of this literature was first composed, and about the extent of any debt to a preceding or ongoing oral tradition. Many of the compositions consist of praise either of earlier rulers or of divine hymns with prayers on behalf of these rulers, two kings being particularly prominent, the Ur III ruler Šulgi and Išme-Dagan, a 20th century ruler whose capital was Isin. Whether these 18th

[Serpico1103]

you say tomato I say potato.

Religion and spirituality are responsible for the church's power.

Im not claiming either side is right or wrong in their beliefs, it is purely a matter of faith.

To truly believe there is no God or accountability for your actions would lead you to live a completely different life than most people who claim to be atheist.
Is it red and juicy? Tomato.


I don't believe in any higher power but I understand our innate need for religion. Science in the last hundred years or so just evolved quicker than religion.

[StanUpshaw]

So you are claiming the Sumarians were actually atheists?

Did you actually read your source?

It totally supports my argument.


No, you retard, I'm not saying that. You said that writing was invented for religious purposes. I'm showing you proof that you're 100% wrong.

[Crispy123]

No, you retard, I'm not saying that. You said that writing was invented for religious purposes. I'm showing you proof that you're 100% wrong.

Hey assfuck, learn to read then get back to me!

[Serpico1103]

No, you retard, I'm not saying that. You said that writing was invented for religious purposes. I'm showing you proof that you're 100% wrong.

You say retard. I say trig.

[Captain Geech]

Religious people dont even get close to touching the air of superiority a loud atheist can put out.


That's quite possibly the dumbest thing I've ever read. Bravo.

[booster11373]

To truly believe there is no God or accountability for your actions would lead you to live a completely different life than most people who claim to be atheist.

So what is your point here? Atheists only claim to be so but secretly believe in a "god"

That if people didn't fear accountability in the afterlife things would be different how so?

[realmenhatelife]

That's quite possibly the dumbest thing I've ever read. Bravo.

I understand that its extremely ironic but I also find it to be extremely true. Probably because Christianity has a strong element of humility. So these people will act righteous but not superior. Also, a religious person is essentially inviting you to believe what they believe, they're trying to get you to participate in what they experience as a reward, where an atheist is telling you you're wrong in your choice. That choice happens to be something hugely personal, so to me it's really dickish to stick your nose in.

[Melk]

That choice happens to be something hugely personal, so to me it's really dickish to stick your nose in.
Much in the same way the people of the church are claim to be rescuing you from an eternity in hell, the atheist claims to be rescuing you from wasting your time.

I can see their argument. Assume your child believed in Harry Potter like you believe in Jesus. Atheists believe that you are committing your trust in a book and a bunch of greedy carnies. You happen to believe it is the word.

[gregman]

I worship in the church of Stanley.

[Furtherman]

Liberals and Atheists Smarter? Intelligent People Have Values Novel in Human Evolutionary History, Study Finds (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/02/100224132655.htm)

God, this makes sense!

[Bob Impact]

Liberals and Atheists Smarter? Intelligent People Have Values Novel in Human Evolutionary History, Study Finds (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/02/100224132655.htm)

God, this makes sense!

I want to say this without being rude, but is anyone REALLY surprised that people who believe a man in the sky controls everything are considered less intelligent than those who don't?

[Furtherman]

It's not a sound theory at all because I know dummies on both ends.

[Serpico1103]

It's not a sound theory at all because I know dummies on both ends.

Whose dummies are smarter?

[Furtherman]

Whose dummies are smarter?

No difference. Both narrow minded.