Pro Spanking = Anti Science

[StanUpshaw]

Creationists. Global warming deniers. Spanking proponents.

What do they all have in common? They cling to their dogmatic beliefs in the face of overwhelming scientific evidence.

Here is a brief sampling of the voluminous research done by the scientific community on the topic of corporal punishment:

Let's start with the study that initiated today's discussion. Authored by a team of four PhD researchers (and refuted by one radio talkshow host with a high school education).

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/peds.2009-2678v1
Mothers' Spanking of 3-Year-Old Children and Subsequent Risk of Children's Aggressive Behavior

Catherine A. Taylor, PhD, MSW, MPH, Jennifer A. Manganello, PhD, MPH, Shawna J. Lee, PhD, MSW, MPP, Janet C. Rice, PhD

OBJECTIVE: The goal was to examine the association between the use of corporal punishment (CP) against 3-year-old children and subsequent aggressive behavior among those children.

Methods Respondents (N = 2461) participated in the Fragile Families and Child Well-being Study (1998–2005), a population-based, birth cohort study of children born in 20 large US cities. Maternal reports of CP, children's aggressive behaviors at 3 and 5 years of age, and a host of key demographic features and potential confounding factors, including maternal child physical maltreatment, psychological maltreatment, and neglect, intimate partner aggression victimization, stress, depression, substance use, and consideration of abortion, were assessed.

RESULTS: Frequent use of CP (ie, mother's use of spanking more than twice in the previous month) when the child was 3 years of age was associated with increased risk for higher levels of child aggression when the child was 5 years of age (adjusted odds ratio: 1.49 [95% confidence interval: 1.2–1.8]; P < .0001), even with controlling for the child's level of aggression at age 3 and the aforementioned potential confounding factors and key demographic features.

CONCLUSIONS: Despite American Academy of Pediatrics recommendations to the contrary, most parents in the United States approve of and have used CP as a form of child discipline. The current findings suggest that even minor forms of CP, such as spanking, increase risk for increased child aggressive behavior. Importantly, these findings cannot be attributed to possible confounding effects of a host of other maternal parenting risk factors.

[StanUpshaw]

http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=2540224
Spanking in the home and children's subsequent aggression toward kindergarten peers

Zvi Strassberg, Kenneth A. Dodge, Gregory S. Pettit and John E. Bates

Abstract

Although spanking of children is almost universal in U.S. society, its effects are not well understood. We examined the longitudinal relation between parental spanking and other physical punishment of preschool children and children's aggressive behavior toward peers later in kindergarten. A total of 273 boys and girls from diverse backgrounds served as subjects. The findings were consistent with a socialization model in which higher levels of severity in parental punishment practices are associated with higher levels of children's subsequent aggression toward peers. Findings indicated that children who had been spanked evidenced levels of aggression that were higher than those who had not been spanked, and children who had been the objects of violent discipline became the most aggressive of all groups. Patterns were qualified by the sexes of the parent and child and subtypes of child aggression (reactive, bullying, and instrumental). The findings suggest that in spite of parents' goals, spanking fails to promote prosocial development and, instead, is associated with higher rates of aggression toward peers.

[Serpico1103]

What about if the father beats the kid?
Or a third party?

I could start a company. "Kid Kickers- We beat your kids for you!"

The study only focuses on aggression. Don't we encourage aggression in this society? How do you get ahead? By smiling and being nice?
What about all the other personality attributes, how are they affected by spanking?

[Charlie_Don't_Surf]

Here's one for you, I don't know how scientific it is.

Classical Conditioning (Ivan Pavlov)

Several types of learning exist. The most basic form is associative learning, i.e., making a new association between events in the environment. There are two forms of associative learning: classical conditioning (made famous by Ivan Pavlov’s experiments with dogs) and operant conditioning.

Continued here. (http://www.learning-theories.com/classical-conditioning-pavlov.html)

[StanUpshaw]

http://www.ncjrs.gov/App/abstractdb/AbstractDBDetails.aspx?id=250684
Corporal Punishment by Mothers and Development of Children's Cognitive Ability

Murray A. Straus; Mallie J. Paschall

Although almost all U.S. children experience at least some corporal punishment (CP), the differences in how often mothers use it provides sufficient variance in CP to test the hypothesis that the more CP experienced by a child, the slower the development of cognitive ability. Multiple regression and ANCOVA confirmed this hypothesis. Children 2-4 years old who experienced no CP in either of the two sample weeks gained a mean of 5.5 cognitive-ability points. (on a scale with a mean of 100 and a standard deviation of 15) relative to children whose mothers used CP. Similarly, children 5-9 years old whose mothers did not use CP in either week gained a mean of about 2 points relative to children whose mothers used CP. Conversely, for both age groups, CP was associated with a decrease from Time 1 (T1) to Time 2 (T2) cognitive-ability test score. These findings are consistent with the two previous studies of the relationship of CP to cognitive ability (Power and Chapieski, 1986). The sample was drawn from women who were first interviewed in 1979 as part of the National Longitudinal Survey of Youth. This study included an oversample of low-income and minority youth. The 1,510 children in this study were those with no missing data on any of the variables needed for the study. For both age groups, cognitive ability was measured at both T1 and 4 years later at T2. Tests for cognitive ability at each of these times were age appropriate. 4 tables, 1 figure, and 50 references

[StanUpshaw]

http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/161/7/805?ijkey=5ecceff672d8128717d871d9d6a0038e31d4b858
Slapping and spanking in childhood and its association with lifetime prevalence of psychiatric disorders in a general population sample

Harriet L. MacMillan, MD, Michael H. Boyle, PhD, Maria Y.-Y. Wong, MS, Eric K. Duku, MS, Jan E. Fleming, MD and Christine A. Walsh, MSW

Background: Little information is available in Canada about the prevalence of and outcomes associated with a history of slapping and spanking in childhood. The objectives of this study were to estimate the prevalence of a history of slapping or spanking in a general population sample and to assess the relation between such a history and the lifetime prevalence of psychiatric disorders.

Methods: In this general population survey, a probability sample of 9953 residents of Ontario aged 15 years and older who participated in the Ontario Health Supplement was used to examine the prevalence of a history of slapping and spanking. A subgroup of this sample (n = 4888), which comprised people aged 15 to 64 years who did not report a history of physical or sexual abuse during childhood, was used to assess the relation between a history of slapping or spanking and the lifetime prevalence of 4 categories of psychiatric disorder. The measures included a self-administered questionnaire with a question about frequency of slapping and spanking during childhood, as well as an interviewer-administered questionnaire to measure psychiatric disorder.

Results: The majority of respondents indicated that they had been slapped or spanked, or both, by an adult during childhood "sometimes" (33.4%) or "rarely" (40.9%); 5.5% reported that this occurred "often." The remainder (20.2%) reported "never" experiencing these behaviours. Among the respondents without a history of physical or sexual abuse during childhood, those who reported being slapped or spanked "often" or "sometimes" had significantly higher lifetime rates of anxiety disorders (adjusted odds ratio [OR] 1.43, 95% confidence interval [CI] 1.04-1.96), alcohol abuse or dependence (adjusted OR 2.02, 95% CI 1.27-3.21) and one or more externalizing problems (adjusted OR 2.08, 95% CI 1.36-3.16), compared with those who reported "never" being slapped or spanked. There was also an association between a history of slapping or spanking and major depression, but it was not statistically significant (adjusted OR 1.64, 95% CI 0.96-2.80).

Interpretation: There appears to be a linear association between the frequency of slapping and spanking during childhood and a lifetime prevalence of anxiety disorder, alcohol abuse or dependence and externalizing problems.

[disneyspy]

i always say,spare the rod,soil the child

[weekapaugjz]

you're becoming worse than hanso.

[weekapaugjz]

i always say,spare the rod,soil the child

you have never spared a rod on a child.

[disneyspy]

you have never spared a rod on a child.

thats cuz i only have one

[StanUpshaw]

Here's one that doesn't discuss the benefit or harm of spanking, but shows that it is a result of dogmatic belief, rather than a choice based on results:

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/117/6/2055
Attitudes Predict the Use of Physical Punishment: A Prospective Study of the Emergence of Disciplinary Practices

Brigitte Vittrup, MA, George W. Holden, PhD, Jeanell Buck, MA

OBJECTIVE. We sought to track the emergence of discipline techniques by mothers of young children and assess the predictive validity of spanking attitudes with subsequent reports of spanking.

METHODS. One hundred thirty-two mothers were surveyed every 6 months (beginning when their child was 12 months old until they were 4 years old) regarding how they disciplined their children. The discipline behaviors measured included physical punishment, noncoercive methods, and the use of time-outs and withdrawal of privileges. Attitudes toward spanking also were assessed several times.

RESULTS. When their infants were 12 months old, mothers reported using 10 of the 12 discipline techniques assessed, and by the time the children were 24 months old, most mothers reported widespread use of the techniques. The frequency of use increased with age. Although the use of some discipline methods changed as the children got older, the mothers showed significant stability in their overall discipline strategy. Attitudes toward spanking (assessed when their children were 6 months old) were significantly correlated with subsequent spanking behavior, and the mothers’ attitudes showed stability over time as well.

CONCLUSIONS. By the time infants are 12 months old, discipline is a frequent occurrence in many families. A variety of techniques are used, and attitudes toward spanking predict subsequent spanking behavior. This information is useful for pediatricians, because it provides parents with anticipatory guidance about disciplining young children.

[StanUpshaw]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2764296/?tool=pmcentrez&report=abstract
Parenting Practices and Child Disruptive Behavior Problems in Early Elementary School

Elizabeth A. Stormshak, Karen L. Bierman, Robert J. McMahon and Liliana J. Lengua

Abstract: Examined the hypothesis that distinct parenting practices may be associated with type and profile of a child’s disruptive behavior problems (e.g., oppositional, aggressive, hyperactive). Parents of 631 behaviorally disruptive children described the extent to which they experienced warm and involved interactions with their children and the extent to which their discipline strategies were inconsistent and punitive and involved spanking and physical aggression. As expected from a developmental perspective, parenting practices that included punitive interactions were associated with elevated rates of all child disruptive behavior problems. Low levels of warm involvement were particularly characteristic of parents of children who showed elevated levels of oppositional behaviors. Physically aggressive parenting was linked more specifically with child aggression. In general, parenting practices contributed more to the prediction of oppositional and aggressive behavior problems than to hyperactive behavior problems, and parenting influences were fairly consistent across ethnic groups and sex.

[underdog]

you're becoming worse than hanso.

That's the worst thing you can say about a person.

[TripleSkeet]

I go by personal experience. And personal experience tells me people that were never hit as kids were usually disrespectful kids and turn into disrespectful adults. Spanking works. These scientists that say otherwise are full of shit. But hey, if they dont want to hit their kids thats their business. Just dont tell me how to discipline mine. My kids do and will catch an ass whipping when they step out of line.

[keithy_19]

I go by personal experience. And personal experience tells me people that were never hit as kids were usually disrespectful kids and turn into disrespectful adults. Spanking works. These scientists that say otherwise are full of shit. But hey, if they dont want to hit their kids thats their business. Just dont tell me how to discipline mine. My kids do and will catch an ass whipping when they step out of line.

A quick slap on the rear never caused anyone to grow up and be a violent adult.

[StanUpshaw]

I don't expect that anyone will actually change their opinions. After 150 years of scientific progress in the field of evolution, people still refuse to believe that humans are descended from apes.

Faith is strong. The faithful are stubborn.

[Charlie_Don't_Surf]

I don't expect that anyone will actually change their opinions. After 150 years of scientific progress in the field of evolution, people still refuse to believe that humans are descended from apes.

Faith is strong. The faithful are stubborn.

We didn't descend from apes. We descended from a species that apes also descended from. :innocent:

[keithy_19]

I don't expect that anyone will actually change their opinions. After 150 years of scientific progress in the field of evolution, people still refuse to believe that humans are descended from apes.

Faith is strong. The faithful are stubborn.

As someone who was brought up in a christian family, who went to church every sunday till I was 18, I can honestly say that the faithful can also believe in evolution. I don't now where in the Bible it says that evolution is not true.

[Charlie_Don't_Surf]

As someone who was brought up in a christian family, who went to church every sunday till I was 18, I can honestly say that the faithful can also believe in evolution. I don't now where in the Bible it says that evolution is not true.

Page 7, third paragraph. It's there.

[smiler grogan]

I can't say I was never hit as a child but if it was over 5 times I would be amazed and I was not a bratty disrespectful kid. I wasn't a good kid for fear of getting hit if I did something wrong I just happened to be a pretty good kid.
I had plenty of friends that were bratty that did get hit and i had bratty friends that walked all over their parents. Everyone who called in used such broad examples, either you smack your kid at the slightest inkling of acting up so they fall into line or you never, ever, discipline your kid and they can shit on the table during thanksgiving dinner.

My own exp. as a parent, I've put my 3 yr. old into time out and she cries and apologizes. I've also whacked her on the ass so ridiculously lightly twice out of sheer frustration that she would not listen. She continues to act out even though she knows she could be punished it is what kids due. The parent has to know when to give a little leeway and when to stop the nonsense.

[StanUpshaw]

As someone who was brought up in a christian family, who went to church every sunday till I was 18, I can honestly say that the faithful can also believe in evolution. I don't now where in the Bible it says that evolution is not true.

I can't say I understand how people can pick and choose what parts of the bible they believe in, but I am aware that it happens.

I'm not saying that all religious people deny evolution. I'm saying people who do deny evolution do so for reasons of faith, rather than from evidence and reason. Likewise, people who cling to the spanking myth are doing so because of faith in the idea, since all actual evidence shows it does more harm than good.

[metaregina]

I believe spanking can not only cause some children to be more aggressive, but that it can also lead to low self esteem/anxiety in children who are more sensitive... Like many of us, I was spanked growing up... while it taught me to fear my father, it didn't teach me much else. I remember being angry with my parents for the way I was disciplined, and to this day believe my relationship with my father has been strained because of it. For these reasons, I don't plan to use corporal punishment if/when I have children. Yet I also know that my brother respects my father for the way he disciplined us and that he believes his behaviors would have been worse if our parents didn't spank us. I don't want to tell anyone how to parent their children, as long as a parent is not ABUSING their child by leaving marks, bruises, welts, who am I to judge? But I am surprised by how many people seem to think it is impossible to discipline children without spanking. Have none of ya'll seen Super Nanny?

http://www.familiesonthego.org/Coaches/spare_the_rod.htm

[Serpico1103]

I can't say I understand how people can pick and choose what parts of the bible they believe in, but I am aware that it happens.

I'm not saying that all religious people deny evolution. I'm saying people who do deny evolution do so for reasons of faith, rather than from evidence and reason. Likewise, people who cling to the spanking myth are doing so because of faith in the idea, since all actual evidence shows it does more harm than good.

Did they study how happy the parents were that beat their kids?
Why is the kids happiness all that matters?
Were the parents that used corporal punishment on their brats, happier than the hippie timeout parents?

[StanUpshaw]

Did they study how happy the parents were that beat their kids?
Why is the kids happiness all that matters?
Were the parents that used corporal punishment on their brats, happier than the hippie timeout parents?

I haven't come across studies that gauge the parents' happiness.

But none of the studies I posted focused on kids' happiness, either. They studied things like the antisocial behavior of the children, and their mental health in adulthood.

[Dan 'Hampton]

I'm guessing little Stan here got slapped around as a kid. I would get spanked occasionally as a kid. Only if I was way out of line. I didn't grow up to fear or resent my parents. And I think I'm a pretty laid back relaxed guy. Def not aggresive. As with everythig else, moderation.

[StanUpshaw]

I'm guessing little Stan here got slapped around as a kid. I would get spanked occasionally as a kid. Only if I was way out of line. I didn't grow up to fear or resent my parents. And I think I'm a pretty laid back relaxed guy. Def not aggresive. As with everythig else, moderation.

Nope. Like most people, I got spanked infrequently. Certainly never "slapped around."

Unlike most people, as it seems, I actually learn from the knowledge that science has accumulated, and don't mistake anecdotal "my parents did [fill in the blank], and I turned out fine," as proper evidence of anything.

[TripleSkeet]

Likewise, people who cling to the spanking myth are doing so because of faith in the idea, since all actual evidence shows it does more harm than good.

Studies dont mean dick. Ron put it best today when he said studies can be slanted to whatever way the scientist wants it to be. So please stop acting like time outs have proven to be the better discipling method. Thats simply not the case.

The bottom line is, I see what works from my own experience. As a kid, my dad was strict with me and beat the dogshit out of me when I deserved it. And I did deserve it. I was never hit unless I did something wrong. You know what it did? It made a fucking man out of me. One that respects my parents to this day. Shit I wont even smoke a cigarette in front of my parents and Im 34. It also taught me consequences. But most important, it taught me how to take an ass whooping and made me a tougher kid for it.

Now my 2 younger brothers? They are 7 and 9 years younger then me. My dad by that time had mellowed out. He let them do and say whatever they pleased. What happened? They smoke and drink and do drugs and still live at home like 2 losers. And they tell him to go fuck himself to boot. Thats what "time out" discipline got him. They are also both afraid of their own shadows. When Im visiting they are like 2 choirboys in the house. Because unlike my old man, the first time they mouthed off to me they got dropped like 3rd period French.

A caller today explained it perfectly. spankings teach consequences, time out teaches negotiating. I dont negotiate with my fucking kids. In my house my word is pretty much like the word of God, so when its not respected the hand of God comes down to smite their little ass red.

[weekapaugjz]

A caller today explained it perfectly. spankings teach consequences, time out teaches negotiating. I dont negotiate with my fucking kids. In my house my word is pretty much like the word of God, so when its not respected the hand of God comes down to smite their little ass red.

i find it hard to believe that baby snoots ever misbehaves.

[TripleSkeet]

Unlike most people, as it seems, I actually learn from the knowledge that science has accumulated, and don't mistake anecdotal "my parents did [fill in the blank], and I turned out fine," as proper evidence of anything.

The most hilarious part of this statement is thats exactly the "evidence" your fucking scientists used to get their "proof". They asked people how they were raised as a kid and the answers they gathered is their result.

What do you think they followed millions of families around and watched how they disciplined their kids day in and day out for 17 years? Keep learning there dumbass.

[StanUpshaw]

Studies dont mean dick. Ron put it best today when he said studies can be slanted to whatever way the scientist wants it to be.

Actually, I'm glad you brought that up, as that was my impetus for starting this thread. I could give a fuck about methods of discipline. I was infuriated by Ron's attitude in dismissing this study. The lack of respect he shows for science is mindboggling sometimes.

I found the story he used as a source. The bolded part is what he read, the entire remainder of the article goes on to show how full of shit he was in his criticism of the work of these PhDs:

Spanking your kid could hatch a bully
Frederik Joelving Mon Apr 12, 2010 9:40am EDT

NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - Punishing your toddler with a few swats on the rear may come back to bite you, a new report suggests.

According to the study, kids who were spanked often were twice as likely as those who weren't spanked to develop aggressive behaviors such as getting into fights, destroying things or being mean to others.

Earlier research had produced similar results, but most had not taken into account how aggressive kids were to begin with, and other factors could have biased the results.

Although the new study doesn't prove that corporal punishment causes aggression by itself, it shows that the link remains even after excluding a broad range of possible explanations.

"That is really a key point that sets the study apart," said Catherine A. Taylor, of Tulane University School of Public Health and Tropical Medicine in New Orleans, who led the research, published in the journal Pediatrics.

"Causality is extremely difficult to prove," Taylor told Reuters Health. Still, she added, "the evidence is at a point where we want to encourage parents to use techniques other than spanking that can actually lower children's risk for being more aggressive."

Taylor and colleagues examined data from an earlier, population-based study of families from 20 large cities in the US. For that study, researchers had interviewed mothers when their children were three years old and again when they were five. Based on the children's behaviors, roughly half were categorized as "higher aggression," and roughly half as "lower aggression."

More than half of the nearly 2,500 kids had been spanked in the month before the interview. And those who had been swatted more than twice at age three had twice as high odds of being highly aggressive at age five. Even after accounting for baseline differences in aggression and other factors -- for instance, psychological maltreatment, maternal depression and substance abuse -- the odds remained increased.

Although the researchers based their findings on what mothers told them, they echo the data behind anti-spanking recommendations by several professional societies, including the American Academy of Pediatrics and the American Psychological Association.

"The evidence is clear that spanking does lead to aggression," psychologist Sandra A. Graham-Bermann, who was not involved in the new study, told Reuters Health in an e-mail.

Graham-Bermann, of the University of Michigan at Ann Arbor, recently chaired an American Psychological Association division task force that reviewed the research on corporal punishment.

She said spanking -- defined as open-handed hitting that does not injure the child -- makes children do what they're told in the short term, but doesn't work in the long term and may in fact be harmful.

Instead, many psychologists recommend time-outs and other types of non-physical punishment. If that doesn't work, Graham-Bermann said a parent might want to wait until his or her anger has blown over before talking to the child about the problem.

Despite the opinion of professional societies, surveys show that as many as 90 percent of parents spank their children. Taylor encourages parents to talk to a pediatrician about how to better control their toddlers if they use this type of punishment.

"Children need guidance and discipline," said Taylor. "However, parents should focus on positive, non-physical forms of discipline and avoid the use of spanking."

As you can see, his point that researchers just make up whatever they care to suit their prejudices, that they didn't factor in how "bad kids get spanked," is proven false in the VERY NEXT SENTENCE!

Then he has the balls to scold the public for not actually reading the study, and just believing the headlines. What a load of bullshit.

[StanUpshaw]

The most hilarious part of this statement is thats exactly the "evidence" your fucking scientists used to get their "proof". They asked people how they were raised as a kid and the answers they gathered is their result.

What do you think they followed millions of families around and watched how they disciplined their kids day in and day out for 17 years? Keep learning there dumbass.

Palin in 2012!

[TripleSkeet]

Actually, I'm glad you brought that up, as that was my impetus for starting this thread. I could give a fuck about methods of discipline. I was infuriated by Ron's attitude in dismissing this study. The lack of respect he shows for science is mindboggling sometimes.

I found the story he used as a source. The bolded part is what he read, the entire remainder of the article goes on to show how full of shit he was in his criticism of the work of these PhDs:



As you can see, his point that researchers just make up whatever they care to suit their prejudices, that they didn't factor in how "bad kids get spanked," is proven false in the VERY NEXT SENTENCE!

Then he has the balls to scold the public for not actually reading the study, and just believing the headlines. What a load of bullshit.


Its because these "studies" arent actual science. They are surveys. These scientists dont observe every aspect of these peoples lives. They ask them questions. Then use each family to represent thousands of others. Thats why he said its bullshit. And thats why I agree its bullshit. You cant prove these studies are scientific fact. You cant even fucking prove these people didnt lie when answering the questions.

Its as scientific as giving IQ tests to 100,000 people and determining that people of a certain hair color are smarter then others based on the results.

[TripleSkeet]

Palin in 2012!

I dont even know what this is supposed to mean.

[TripleSkeet]

i find it hard to believe that baby snoots ever misbehaves.

Baby Snoots is the man, but I can already tell that kid has a temper in him. His sister beats him for fun and he loves it. He just laughs at her. I gotta put their fear of dad in that kid when he gets older because seriously hes gonna wind up being 6'2 as a teenager and 6'7 by the time hes 18. Me and my wife are giants.

Good news is he's 11 months old and already can catch and regulation sized football. No bullshit.

[StanUpshaw]

I dont even know what this is supposed to mean.

It means, because of citizens like you, we get politicians like her.

[weekapaugjz]

Baby Snoots is the man, but I can already tell that kid has a temper in him. His sister beats him for fun and he loves it. He just laughs at her. I gotta put their fear of dad in that kid when he gets older because seriously hes gonna wind up being 6'2 as a teenager and 6'7 by the time hes 18. Me and my wife are giants.

Good news is he's 11 months old and already can catch and regulation sized football. No bullshit.

nice! he looks like an awesome kid (your daughter too!) i love the pic updates with snoots.

[suggums]

i can only speak for myself, but the occasional spanking worked out for me. i wasnt violent, a bully, or anti-social because of it. when they discussed this long ago, i remember earl bringing up that the THREAT of being spanked was always way more powerful and effective than the actual spanking. this was definitely true for me and my brother. i can only remember getting hit a couple of times (and im sure i deserved it) when the warnings didn't work. usually the threat was enough, but a couple times my folks needed to back it up. the brushing of the teeth with liquid soap was particularly effective and memorable too. does this count as corporal punishment too?

ill do the same when i have kids. this belief makes me some sorta palin-loving creationist? right...

Unlike most people, as it seems, I actually learn from the knowledge that science has accumulated, and don't mistake anecdotal "my parents did [fill in the blank], and I turned out fine," as proper evidence of anything.

stop putting yourself on a pedestal. assuming you're a parent: if evidence is all you need, than go ahead and change the way you raise your kids based on these studies. and feed them eggs only during the years when nutritionists say they're ok (http://soundmedicine.iu.edu/segment/15/Pros-and-Cons-of-Eggs). oh and be sure they drink their milk (http://milk.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=000656). studies can and do go back and forth. as someone so dedicated to science you could at least acknowledge this. you're acting like it's not even open to debate anymore, and we're either with the latest findings or a bunch of hayseeds.

[PapaBear]

How is this even a debate? I don't need a scientific study to know it's wrong to spank to children. :wink:

[TripleSkeet]

i can only speak for myself, but the occasional spanking worked out for me. i wasnt violent, a bully, or anti-social because of it. when they discussed this long ago, i remember earl bringing up that the THREAT of being spanked was always way more powerful and effective than the actual spanking. this was definitely true for me and my brother. i can only remember getting hit a couple of times (and im sure i deserved it) when the warnings didn't work. usually the threat was enough, but a couple times my folks needed to back it up. the brushing of the teeth with liquid soap was particularly effective and memorable too. does this count as corporal punishment too?

ill do the same when i have kids. this belief makes me some sorta palin-loving creationist? right...



Yea I dont get the connection either.

And I hope people realize theirs a difference between spanking a kid and beating them with a beer bottle like some drunk Jerry Springer guest.

And yes the threat eventually gets the job done once they actually get hit a few times.

stop putting yourself on a pedestal. assuming you're a parent: if evidence is all you need, than go ahead and change the way you raise your kids based on these studies. and feed them eggs only during the years when nutritionists say they're ok (http://soundmedicine.iu.edu/segment/15/Pros-and-Cons-of-Eggs). oh and be sure they drink their milk (http://milk.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=000656). studies can and do go back and forth. as someone so dedicated to science you could at least acknowledge this. you're acting like it's not even open to debate anymore, and we're either with the latest findings or a bunch of hayseeds.

Thats mighty kind of you. It would take more then a scientific study to make me believe this guy gets laid.

[StanUpshaw]

stop putting yourself on a pedestal. assuming you're a parent: if evidence is all you need, than go ahead and change the way you raise your kids based on these studies. and feed them eggs only during the years when nutritionists say they're ok (http://soundmedicine.iu.edu/segment/15/Pros-and-Cons-of-Eggs). oh and be sure they drink their milk (http://milk.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=000656). studies can and do go back and forth. as someone so dedicated to science you could at least acknowledge this. you're acting like it's not even open to debate anymore, and we're either with the latest findings or a bunch of hayseeds.

I'm not a parent. Like I said, personally, I don't give a fuck if people hit their kids. When I have kids, I'll probably end up spanking them because it's expedient. I'll probably feed them shit food because it's convenient. I'll probably give in and let them have their way because I'm fucking exhausted.

But I'm sure as fuck not going to plug my ears and scoff at the scientists with their book learnin'; at the same time pretending I'm doing my kids a favor, all in order to justify my lazy parenting (or at least lazy thinking).

[keithy_19]

I just wanted to say, Palin in 2012 may very well lead to some spanking.

:smoke:

[keithy_19]

But I'm sure as fuck not going to plug my ears and scoff at the scientists with their book learnin'; at the same time pretending I'm doing my kids a favor, all in order to justify my lazy parenting (or at least lazy thinking).

Granted I'm not the brightest, but I tend to think that book learnin' means shit in many instances.

[TripleSkeet]

But I'm sure as fuck not going to plug my ears and scoff at the scientists with their book learnin'; at the same time pretending I'm doing my kids a favor, all in order to justify my lazy parenting (or at least lazy thinking).

I scoff at any book learnin scientist that has the balls to claim that something as important and unpredictable as raising a child can have only one true right way of doing it.

[SonicReducer]

I choose not to, although I've seen plenty of kids from good parents that probably need a good crack to let them know who's the boss while they live at home.
I grew up in a pretty disfunctional house with lots of yelling with intermittant beatings, I didn't grow to be a violent man, but I know how to handle a bully.
What are parents supposed to do when kids get so far out of the scope of controllabilty that they cause trouble with innocent bystanders and most dispicably, excessively disruptive in class. It's really not fair to the teacher when there is no discipline at home. I know a couple that swore they would never hit their child, he learned he could rule the house, then later his class. After countless trips to the principles office, and numerous complaints from angry parents, they gave in to the fact that their little angel needed a good old fashioned whoopin'. That was years ago, that child realized how far he pushed the envelope, and today he's a very well behaved little boy.
As I said, I haven't been presented with this type of problem, so I really can't judge.

[StanUpshaw]

I scoff at any book learnin scientist that has the balls to claim that something as important and unpredictable as raising a child can have only one true right way of doing it.

One true way? Where was that conclusion reached in any of the studies I posted? How do you get that from what they actually said:

"The current findings suggest that even minor forms of [corporal punishment], such as spanking, increase risk for increased child aggressive behavior."

How do you make that jump?

[Devo37]

this thread needs a swift kick in the ass.

[A.J.]

Studies dont mean dick. Ron put it best today when he said studies can be slanted to whatever way the scientist wants it to be. So please stop acting like time outs have proven to be the better discipling method. Thats simply not the case.

The bottom line is, I see what works from my own experience. As a kid, my dad was strict with me and beat the dogshit out of me when I deserved it. And I did deserve it. I was never hit unless I did something wrong. You know what it did? It made a fucking man out of me. One that respects my parents to this day. Shit I wont even smoke a cigarette in front of my parents and Im 34. It also taught me consequences. But most important, it taught me how to take an ass whooping and made me a tougher kid for it.

Now my 2 younger brothers? They are 7 and 9 years younger then me. My dad by that time had mellowed out. He let them do and say whatever they pleased. What happened? They smoke and drink and do drugs and still live at home like 2 losers. And they tell him to go fuck himself to boot. Thats what "time out" discipline got him. They are also both afraid of their own shadows. When Im visiting they are like 2 choirboys in the house. Because unlike my old man, the first time they mouthed off to me they got dropped like 3rd period French.

A caller today explained it perfectly. spankings teach consequences, time out teaches negotiating. I dont negotiate with my fucking kids. In my house my word is pretty much like the word of God, so when its not respected the hand of God comes down to smite their little ass red.

This.

I got spanked and I turned out pretty well. In fact, I tell my Dad he didn't hit me nearly enough for being the little punk teenager I was.

[TjM]

they got dropped like 3rd period French.

.

That was SO! fucking hack dude

[Furtherman]

We didn't descend from apes. We descended from a species that apes also descended from. :innocent:

Thank you.

Studies dont mean dick. Ron put it best today when he said studies can be slanted to whatever way the scientist wants it to be. So please stop acting like time outs have proven to be the better discipling method. Thats simply not the case.

The bottom line is, I see what works from my own experience. As a kid, my dad was strict with me and beat the dogshit out of me when I deserved it. And I did deserve it. I was never hit unless I did something wrong. You know what it did? It made a fucking man out of me. One that respects my parents to this day. Shit I wont even smoke a cigarette in front of my parents and Im 34. It also taught me consequences. But most important, it taught me how to take an ass whooping and made me a tougher kid for it.

A caller today explained it perfectly. spankings teach consequences, time out teaches negotiating. I dont negotiate with my fucking kids. In my house my word is pretty much like the word of God, so when its not respected the hand of God comes down to smite their little ass red.

Yep. I feel the same way. Some kids need a reminder that if you want to live in this society, you gotta act a certain way, and there is nothing wrong with a little spank as a reminder.

[TripleSkeet]

One true way? Where was that conclusion reached in any of the studies I posted? How do you get that from what they actually said:

"The current findings suggest that even minor forms of [corporal punishment], such as spanking, increase risk for increased child aggressive behavior."

How do you make that jump?

Dude, in your argument you compare people that spank their kids with creationists and global warming deniers. Youre posts speak as if people that spank their childs are out of touch old timers that still use leeches on their kids for fever.

You werent trying to spark a discussion or asking for opinions. You were talking down to parents that spank their kids because some scientists took a survey and came up with the result that spanking isnt the right way to do things.

Thats how I made that jump.

[StanUpshaw]

We didn't descend from apes. We descended from a species that apes also descended from. :innocent:

Thank you.


They were still apes. Hominoidea goes back over 30 million years; homo split off only 5 million years ago.