Are Italians not "white"?

[StanUpshaw]

"Outside of the Northeast, people don't consider Italians to be white people."

This is one of those things that Ron repeats all the time, but it has never rang true with me. I've lived in the Midwest my entire life, and have never heard of Italians being thought of as a separate group. Where I come from, the majority of people are classified as either White, Black, Mexican, Chinese.

White includes all Europeans, including Italians, including Catholics, but probably excluding Jews (it doesn't come up a lot).
Black is all dark people who aren't obviously Hispanic or Asian.
Mexican is all Hispanics, regardless of country of origin.
Chinese is all Asians, regardless of country of origin.

Maybe it's different in the South, but I haven't found Italian or Catholic prejudice even existent, let alone pervasive, here in the Midwest. (Though I did just recently find out my Grandma still "hates the Japs.")

[furie]

Italians are white.
Sicilians, well.............

http://tapemixblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/true16a.jpg

[Barnaby Jones]

I mean, it's dumb that people get hung up on it, but people generally looking at Italians as "white" is a relatively new occurance. I'd say it's still more common that they're not considered white. Whatever, it's stupid! They're cool either way!

[disneyspy]

snookie isnt even italian

[Chigworthy]

I never heard it until I started listening to R&F/O&A.

[furie]

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/furie1335/pics/image0011.jpg

[Syd]

only other French descendants are white to me. The rest are just people waiting for the glorious return with the sixth republic

[StanUpshaw]

My family is almost entirely German. We were robbed of any cultural heritage as a result of WWI, when the townsfolk would tar and feather anyone too overtly Krauty.

[TripleSkeet]

I grew up in Philly, and its been this way as long as I can remember. Not with white people, they consider Italians white, but with the blacks.

Black people dont usually consider Italians white, at least around here anyway. They dont consider them black either. They consider Italian its own race.

This was something we would talk about at work alot too. When hanging out bullshitting with black guys at work, sometimes a white kid would walk up and try to join in. The black guys would laugh and tell them "Sorry, this conversation isnt for white people." and the kid would look puzzled and ask why I was there. Thats the answer they would get. "Hes not white, hes Italian."

[ANC]

Wow i never heard such a thing. I consider myself white.

[furie]

Italians are white. But Wasps are white white.

[Chigworthy]

This is why our obsession with founding our identities in our appearance is stupid.

[Devo37]

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[StanUpshaw]

Italians are white. But Wasps are white white.

See, we don't really have WASPs here either. I mean, by definition, almost everyone is one, but not in the sense of Old Money Aristocracy. The closest we have to that are pockets of Dutch.

[Chigworthy]

See, we don't really have WASPs here either. I mean, by definition, almost everyone is one, but not in the sense of Old Money Aristocracy. The closest we have to that are pockets of Dutch.

Here WASP really has nothing to do with money. More often than not, those that self-identify as WASP have twin-thunderbolt tattoos and blow out candles on April 20th.

[Hottub]

Almost a third of Italy boarders France, Switzerland and Austria.
Italy was once many states not centrally unified. It wasn't until the early 1800's that the peninsula Italy became a country.

This discussion needs an infusion of fact. Trying to catagorize an Italian is like trying to catagorize an American. It can't be done.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/38/Unification_of_Italy_1815-1870.jpg/545px-Unification_of_Italy_1815-1870.jpg

[StanUpshaw]

Did the immigration occur from all over the country, or just from certain poor parts?

[CaptainBlowhole]

I have heard this rarely, being from NY and also being Italian, and am not completely puzzled by it. I think it had a lot to do with when we started coming to America in larger numbers, during the late 30's and developed the same type of reputation as immigrant Hispanic day laborers have now, which is as a person with limited education and just here for the money or whatever other people think. I am not saying I think this mind you.
I have seen photos of my great grandparents and relatives from back then and I would not even consider them the same ethnicity as me. They were primarily from Sicily and Calabria, which is Southern Italy where the people are darker all around. Not so in Northern Italy. These people in the pictures seem very dark and oily, and appear to me to be people who did a lot of manual labor, which they did.
It makes a little sense that non Italians from back then would think this about them, the same as someone from now might look at those Hispanic day laborers who live crowded together in poor areas, typically.

[torker]

"human"?

[K.C.]

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[Recyclerz]

Almost a third of Italy boarders France, Switzerland and Austria.
Italy was once many states not centrally unified. It wasn't until the early 1800's that the peninsula Italy became a country.

This discussion needs an infusion of fact. Trying to catagorize an Italian is like trying to catagorize an American. It can't be done.


Our Tea Party friends apparently can and have. Sarah Palin = Yes; The President of The United States = No.

But your central point is right: our concept of "race" is a social construct and is subjective.

[K.C.]

http://dagoguineawopgreaseballgoombahs.ytmnd.com/

[torker]

Did the immigration occur from all over the country, or just from certain poor parts?

Just the parts they immigrated from.

[Crash]

only other French descendants are white to me. The rest are just people waiting for the glorious return with the sixth republic

So...the entire world is either French or Korean?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixth_Republic

I'm confused. :ohmy:

[IamFogHat]

Not white at all.

[torker]

Not white at all.

That's mighty white of you.

[Dan 'Hampton]

Sicilians certainly aren't. They're black Italians. My stock is from northwestern Italy frankly. Practically a frog.

[Syd]

So...the entire world is either French or Korean?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixth_Republic

I'm confused. :ohmy:

Sixth Republic will be what comes after the current French Fifth Republic. Usually happens when a Bonaparte decides to throw a party and tries to conquer Europe.

[torker]

Now I'm stravin

Hey Earl, we got any eggplant parmesan back there?

[sailor]

no they're not, but there's only like 4 countries that really have white folk anyways, right?

[Crispy123]

So that's what happened to Chicago...

[IamFogHat]

That's mighty white of you.

Oof, you're right, that sounded way more aryan than I wanted it to:laugh:

[Jujubees2]

Oof, you're right, that sounded way more aryan than I wanted it to:laugh:

No we"re not white, we're olive

[instrument]

i told my girlfriend that she looked Italian and she was very offended... N.C. born white girl.

[EliSnow]

I think Ron's talking about it from a historical perspective as to how people view it in the last 30 year or so.

I mean if you look at the historical white superiority groups, they were looking to protect Anglo-Saxon/Aryan peoples. That wouldn't include the Italians or Spanish or other Mediterraneans. The KKK was anti-italian for a long time, including some incidents in South Jersey.

Then you look at incidents like the lynching of 11 italians in New Orleans in 1891 or the treatment of Sacco and Vinzetti, who were hated to a certain degree because they were italian and not just anarchist.

Also, if you watch the Godfather II, the WASP senator's attitude toward Michael captured the "white" attitude for italians for awhile.

[realmenhatelife]

I think Ron is making jokes based on absurdity.


However, my ancestry is entirely Southern Italian and I dont feel particularly white, and we didn't think of our traditions growing up as being common to whites. We thought of WASPs and other northern europeans as white.

Truthfully our traditions are a lot closer to Mexicans, and thats probably what killed my grandmother.