Going beyond your party lines...

[Tenbatsuzen]

Do you toe the line when it comes to your political party's "doctrine" or do you pick and choose what you believe in?

I consider myself a moderate republican who believes in the following:

Being fiscally conservative
Personal responsibility
Tough Gun Control
Pro-Choice
Pro-Gay Marriage

I have no problem with Arizona's immigration laws, but I also have no problem with the so called "ground zero mosque".

I voted for Corzine when he ran for senator; I voted for Forrester and then Christie for Governor. However, one of the major reasons I did not vote for McCain in the 2008 election is because of his selection of Sarah Palin. I think Sarah Palin is the worst possible thing that could happen to conservative American politics, and she's the type of person that would make Reagan cringe.

So where do you fall on the hot-button topics that are in politics today?

[Kevin]

I dont care what party the candidate belongs to, if he has good idea's I will vote for him..

As of right now I lean Democrat because the Reps are bat shit insane.

[Tenbatsuzen]

I dont care what party the candidate belongs to, if he has good idea's I will vote for him..

As of right now I lean Democrat because the Reps are bat shit insane.

see, that's what I can't fucking stand.

Each politician is different and doesn't represent the entire party.

Palin is a Republican. Chris Christie is a Republican. One I despise, the other is a 400 pound reincarnation of Reagan.

[ozzie]

My voting record for POTUS:

1988 - Michael Dukakis (what can I say, I was in college)
1992 - Ross Perot
1996 - Bill Clinton
2000 - Harry Browne
2004 - George Bush
2008 - Ralph Nader

Screw party lines.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I am fiscally conservative. I believe entitlements should be slashed, useless bureaucracies like the dept of education should be abolished. Everyone knows my stance on illegal immigration. As far as the military it's time to dismantle the 700+ bases around the world.

For social issues if the gays want to marry that's fine. Marijuana should be legalized or as a start medical marijuana. I am not religious so believe what you want to believe in but don't force it on me. I don't want to adhere to backwards Sharia law or some of the extreme Christian laws.

[A.J.]

Most of my political beliefs are with the GOP which sadly has been highjacked by the bible thumpers over the last 25-30 years. I miss the GOP of Goldwater and Nixon.

If the Libertarian Party could ever run a viable candidate, count me in.

I despise the "family values" mantra on the GOP side and the "working families" mantra on the Democrat side. They're both annoying, misleading rallying slogans.

[weekapaugjz]

If the Libertarian Party could ever run a viable candidate, count me in.

This.

[Jujubees2]

I dont care what party the candidate belongs to, if he has good idea's I will vote for him..

As of right now I lean Democrat because the Reps are bat shit insane.

So you wouldn't vote for a woman?

[A.J.]

So you wouldn't vote for a woman?

http://www.journaloftherandom.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/no-ma-am.jpg

[StanUpshaw]

This.

A viable candidate? What does that mean? Some Obama-esque messiah figure? I could give two fucks about Bob Barr and his worth as a candidate, but he got my vote because voting for either a Republican or a Democrat was simply an intolerable choice.

[Tenbatsuzen]

http://www.journaloftherandom.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/no-ma-am.jpg

...wouldn't that be Amazonian Mistresshood?

[Kevin]

see, that's what I can't fucking stand.

Each politician is different and doesn't represent the entire party.

Palin is a Republican. Chris Christie is a Republican. One I despise, the other is a 400 pound reincarnation of Reagan.



I understand what you are saying here.

However, the Reps have become so klanish that If you do not agree with their stance on everything, they will gang up against you and shut you down.

I'm sure there are some reps that have views that are different but can't speak out for fear of being labled a "bad Repbublican" and not endorsed or what not..

[Kevin]

So you wouldn't vote for a woman?



He or she..

My bad..

[Tenbatsuzen]

I understand what you are saying here.

However, the Reps have become so klanish that If you do not agree with their stance on everything, they will gang up against you and shut you down.

I'm sure there are some reps that have views that are different but can't speak out for fear of being labled a "bad Repbublican" and not endorsed or what not..

klanish? Really? The term you are looking for is "clique-ish".

That said, the same kind of behavior can be seen from Democrats.

I just can't understand why moderate and liberal voices don't have the same kind of mass-media foothold that ultra-conservatives do. People like Rush, Hannity, and Beck do not speak for the entire party.

[A.J.]

A viable candidate? What does that mean? Some Obama-esque messiah figure? I could give two fucks about Bob Barr and his worth as a candidate, but he got my vote because voting for either a Republican or a Democrat was simply an intolerable choice.

A candidate that has a reasonable chance of winning. There's a better shot at the local level but I was referring more to a Presidential campaign.

And Barr was a douchebag no matter how you slice it.

[Kevin]

klanish? Really? The term you are looking for is "clique-ish".

That said, the same kind of behavior can be seen from Democrats.

I just can't understand why moderate and liberal voices don't have the same kind of mass-media foothold that ultra-conservatives do. People like Rush, Hannity, and Beck do not speak for the entire party.



Obama has a much harder time pushing shit through with a majority than Bush did when he had it.

You have Dems voting against each other.. You rarley see that from Reps these days.

[weekapaugjz]

because voting for either a Republican or a Democrat was simply an intolerable choice.

Yes. Because both parties spew complete garbage.

[StanUpshaw]

A candidate that has a reasonable chance of winning. There's a better shot at the local level but I was referring more to a Presidential campaign.

And Barr was a douchebag no matter how you slice it.

I cannot comprehend this mentality. You're unwilling to stand up for your ideals unless they are shared by a large enough group?

[weekapaugjz]

I cannot comprehend this mentality. You're unwilling to stand up for your ideals unless they are shared by a large enough group?

Yeah, so let's all mold our thinking into rep and dem as our only viable option

[Tenbatsuzen]

Obama has a much harder time pushing shit through with a majority than Bush did when he had it.

You have Dems voting against each other.. You rarley see that from Reps these days.

mainly because there was a lot of fear from constituents who didn't understand the health care package, and still don't.

[angrymissy]

that's just as bad as voting for someone simply because they are a republican or dem. you should vote for the person, not the party... I hate all these people that became libertarians simply because its not r or d, without understanding the party or candidates. Bob barr would have been horrible as president... yet you vote for him just to buck the system?

A viable candidate? What does that mean? Some Obama-esque messiah figure? I could give two fucks about Bob Barr and his worth as a candidate, but he got my vote because voting for either a Republican or a Democrat was simply an intolerable choice.

[Dan 'Hampton]

I refuse to vote for either party. If the "tree fornicators" party is the other option count me in. I love oaks.

[Tenbatsuzen]

that's just as bad as voting for someone simply because they are a republican or dem. you should vote for the person, not the party...

EXACTLY the reason I didn't vote for McCain. I was incredibly gung-ho about voting for McCain until August 2008 when he blew it completely in a transparent attempt to get Hillary's supporters when Hillary and Palin couldn't be more fundamentally different with the exception of both having a vagina.

[StanUpshaw]

that's just as bad as voting for someone simply because they are a republican or dem. you should vote for the person, not the party... I hate all these people that became libertarians simply because its not r or d, without understanding the party or candidates. Bob barr would have been horrible as president... yet you vote for him just to buck the system?

You're right, the way I phrased that, it is pretty much the same. But I assure you my ideological loyalties are with the Libertarians. I have no idea how Barr would have been as president. Arguing one way or the other is stupid.

I do disagree, however, that there is any virtue in voting for a candidate as opposed to voting for a party. When you vote for a party, you are voting for ideas. Not campaign slogans and attack ads; not Black Jesus or the "guy you'd like to have a beer with."

What purpose to parties serve, other than to rally people with common ideology? What reasons should people be voting for, other than to promote their ideological interest?

The fact that our two-party system serves these functions so abysmally is reason enough that bucking that system should be looked at as a goal in and of itself.

[keithy_19]

If the Libertarian Party could ever run a viable candidate, count me in.


Again, this.

[A.J.]

I cannot comprehend this mentality. You're unwilling to stand up for your ideals unless they are shared by a large enough group?

I stand up for my ideals wherever I can find a like-minded candidate. And believe me, an opportunistic scumbag like Bob Barr ain't one of them

Black Jesus

I'd totally vote for Black Jesus. He was a great poster back in the day.

[angrymissy]

I stand up for my ideals wherever I can find a like-minded candidate. And believe me, an opportunistic scumbag like Bob Barr ain't one of them

I'd totally vote for Black Jesus. He was a great poster back in the day.

I always take a look at all candidates and researched Bob Barr. He was a fucking hot mess! I don't see how anyone could have voted for him!

[Willmore]

I go with about 80% of the democratic platform. 15% to the left of the Dems, and 5% to the right. Give or take a few.

[Ogre]

I understand what you are saying here.

However, the Reps have become so klanish that If you do not agree with their stance on everything, they will gang up against you and shut you down.

I'm sure there are some reps that have views that are different but can't speak out for fear of being labled a "bad Repbublican" and not endorsed or what not..

I think the very same about the current state of the Democratic Party. If you went against Healthcare you were shouted down, locked out, libeled and smeared. That was just the Republicans and Tea Party. God forbid a Democrat speaks out against the President, Rham or Axlerod or their policies. (See Eric Massa). Could you imagine what a good political place you would be in right now if you were a House Dem that voted against the bailouts and Healthcare? Many many caved against their better judgement, thinking the security of thier long term power rested with Obama. Should have realized it was the voters that give you power and that Obama's pie in the sky would just be nothing but talk.

I lean towards:

Leave people to live their own lives.
Government in it's present form can stay the fuck out of mine.
I dont care who you're fucking or wish to choose as your lifelong partner and soulmate.
Mitts off my Guns
All you do gooder nannies that think you need to decide how to tinker with everyone's lives so we all come out equal, just stop. You're not God, Half of the Libs don't believe in God, so quit trying to be God.
Abortion should be legal under certain circumstances. I will never have to make this decision so I am not qualified to say what those are.

All Men are created equal means equal protection under the law.

It does not mean rob from one group to give to another to create a percieved "equal" outcome. It is nothing of the sort, income redistribution thru excessive taxation is nothing short of Government sanctioned theft.

If we could get past the idea that one group of people (the ruling class) can take something form another group (the producers) and give the treasure to winners of their choosing and making (UAW, SEIU, AFL-CIO AFSCME to name a few) then people might begin to trust Government in it's future form.

I will say in closing that I am afraid of my Government for the first time in my life.

[CountryBob]

I used to always say that I was Republican but lately (past few years) I find myself not wanting to commit to either side. I like to digest ideas and listen to opinions day to day and sometimes I will completely change my stance on issues. But, I dont think that I would ever say that I am liberal - love guns, love the idea of the strongest survive, love a huge military. But I believe in some left ideas as universal healthcare and pro choice. I am a complete mess...

[Barnaby Jones]

I understand what you are saying here.

However, the Reps have become so klanish that If you do not agree with their stance on everything, they will gang up against you and shut you down.

I'm sure there are some reps that have views that are different but can't speak out for fear of being labled a "bad Repbublican" and not endorsed or what not..

I think the very same about the current state of the Democratic Party. If you went against Healthcare you were shouted down, locked out, libeled and smeared. That was just the Republicans and Tea Party. God forbid a Democrat speaks out against the President, Rham or Axlerod or their policies. (See Eric Massa). Could you imagine what a good political place you would be in right now if you were a House Dem that voted against the bailouts and Healthcare? Many many caved against their better judgement, thinking the security of thier long term power rested with Obama. Should have realized it was the voters that give you power and that Obama's pie in the sky would just be nothing but talk.

I lean towards:

Leave people to live their own lives.
Government in it's present form can stay the fuck out of mine.
I dont care who you're fucking or wish to choose as your lifelong partner and soulmate.
Mitts off my Guns
All you do gooder nannies that think you need to decide how to tinker with everyone's lives so we all come out equal, just stop. You're not God, Half of the Libs don't believe in God, so quit trying to be God.
Abortion should be legal under certain circumstances. I will never have to make this decision so I am not qualified to say what those are.

All Men are created equal means equal protection under the law.

It does not mean rob from one group to give to another to create a percieved "equal" outcome. It is nothing of the sort, income redistribution thru excessive taxation is nothing short of Government sanctioned theft.

If we could get past the idea that one group of people (the ruling class) can take something form another group (the producers) and give the treasure to winners of their choosing and making (UAW, SEIU, AFL-CIO AFSCME to name a few) then people might begin to trust Government in it's future form.

I will say in closing that I am afraid of my Government for the first time in my life.

http://rob.nu/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/FacePalm.jpg

[Ogre]

[QUOTE=Ogre;2756691]

http://rob.nu/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/FacePalm.jpg

Generalized Dismissiveness of Ideas that you do not agree with. Classic Liberal Lefty. So much for the Left being tolerant and accepting of everyone, just tolerant and accepting the people you agree with.

The Left preaches kumbahya, acceptance and outreach for all. Guess that applies only to outreach for Islam or maybe NAMBLA.

[angrymissy]

[QUOTE=Barnaby Jones;2756728]

Generalized Dismissiveness of Ideas that you do not agree with. Classic Liberal Lefty. So much for the Left being tolerant and accepting of everyone, just tolerant and accepting the people you agree with.

The Left preaches kumbahya, acceptance and outreach for all. Guess that applies only to outreach for Islam or maybe NAMBLA.

You're being just as bad with throwing in the Islam/NAMBLA comment.

[Syd]

The left is, historically speaking, always correct.

[Barnaby Jones]

[QUOTE=Barnaby Jones;2756728]

Generalized Dismissiveness of Ideas that you do not agree with. Classic Liberal Lefty. So much for the Left being tolerant and accepting of everyone, just tolerant and accepting the people you agree with.

The Left preaches kumbahya, acceptance and outreach for all. Guess that applies only to outreach for Islam or maybe NAMBLA.

I was dismissive because it was silly, melodramatic bullshit! You sound the political version of a sad emo kid!

I like how you live in some loopy fantasy world where being critical of people and opinions doesn't exist. You realize people can easily be "tolerant and accepting" while still being critical, right? Boy, what a ridiculous black & white, unrealistically absolutist approach!

You can be whatever you want, and I'm free to point and laugh at silly nonsense like "I'm afraid of my government!"

[Kevin]

I understand what you are saying here.

However, the Reps have become so klanish that If you do not agree with their stance on everything, they will gang up against you and shut you down.

I'm sure there are some reps that have views that are different but can't speak out for fear of being labled a "bad Repbublican" and not endorsed or what not..

I think the very same about the current state of the Democratic Party. If you went against Healthcare you were shouted down, locked out, libeled and smeared. That was just the Republicans and Tea Party. God forbid a Democrat speaks out against the President, Rham or Axlerod or their policies. (See Eric Massa). Could you imagine what a good political place you would be in right now if you were a House Dem that voted against the bailouts and Healthcare? Many many caved against their better judgement, thinking the security of thier long term power rested with Obama. Should have realized it was the voters that give you power and that Obama's pie in the sky would just be nothing but talk.

I lean towards:

Leave people to live their own lives.
Government in it's present form can stay the fuck out of mine.
I dont care who you're fucking or wish to choose as your lifelong partner and soulmate.
Mitts off my Guns
All you do gooder nannies that think you need to decide how to tinker with everyone's lives so we all come out equal, just stop. You're not God, Half of the Libs don't believe in God, so quit trying to be God.
Abortion should be legal under certain circumstances. I will never have to make this decision so I am not qualified to say what those are.

All Men are created equal means equal protection under the law.

It does not mean rob from one group to give to another to create a percieved "equal" outcome. It is nothing of the sort, income redistribution thru excessive taxation is nothing short of Government sanctioned theft.

If we could get past the idea that one group of people (the ruling class) can take something form another group (the producers) and give the treasure to winners of their choosing and making (UAW, SEIU, AFL-CIO AFSCME to name a few) then people might begin to trust Government in it's future form.

I will say in closing that I am afraid of my Government for the first time in my life.



So you weren't afraid of your government when they started tapping and taping your phone calls and going through personal info?

But that was for the "good of the nation" right?

[StanUpshaw]

The left is, historically speaking, always correct.

They always tend to make great leaps forward.

[Syd]

I'd vote Labor if it existed in America. I believe in the American worker and the need to create a middle class who builds instead of consumes. I favor social reform to move away from welfare and more towards jobs programs (think New Deal)

With that being said, I haven't seen really any candidate worth voting for because they reflect my ideals. I tend to vote for the leftist candidate or whoever at least is pro-union/pro-worker. I'm off to the extreme left of the Democratic party and I hate voting for them but sometimes you just gotta do it.

[conman823]

I'd vote Labor if it existed in America. I believe in the American worker and the need to create a middle class who builds instead of consumes. I favor social reform to move away from welfare and more towards jobs programs (think New Deal)

With that being said, I haven't seen really any candidate worth voting for because they reflect my ideals. I tend to vote for the leftist candidate or whoever at least is pro-union/pro-worker. I'm off to the extreme left of the Democratic party and I hate voting for them but sometimes you just gotta do it.

God forgive me for getting involved in another politics thread but....

You don't believe that Unions, in thier current form, are part of the reason the middle class is endangered in this country?

I fail to see the pro-union line these days when they use a lot of mobster tactics and pull there funding out of the pockets of the people they represent. They are just another of the same bullying, lobbist special interest crap majorly contributing to the fucked up state of things. And to speak against them means your a evil rich white man GOPer who hates the working class. FUCK THAT!All the modern anti-discrimination laws and other bills basically protect you from any type of BS an employer might pull. I believe your fare wage for a fare days work. Riddle me this: I'm a better worker then you, but I get layed off because I'm #234 on a list; You suck a dick and haven't earned your pay in the last 5 years but your #10 on a list. Who should be laid off?

I loved the idea of the Labor movement at its inception, but its current role is no better then the corrupt 2 parties in this country.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I am against all these expansions of government powers, nothing irks me more when pundits keep repeating its getting rammed down our throats

[Syd]

God forgive me for getting involved in another politics thread but....

You don't believe that Unions, in thier current form, are part of the reason the middle class is endangered in this country?

You'll find your reasons to hate unions but just bear in mind how much you have because of them. Considering them an antiquity just shows how powerful they are that they succeeded so wildly. Granted, they're not perfect. They've done inexcusable things. What it comes down to though is whether you want the business looking out for you or your fellow man. Guess which one is going to help you out and which one is going to cut ties with you the second something marginally more profitable comes along? That's why you can't call tech support or customer service for nearly anything without having an ESL operator picking up.

That's why nothing is built in America. Demonized unions, demonized workers and demonized labor movements. When it comes down to it, business wants to fuck you. They have enough money to make sure their message is crafted perfectly so that Joe Sixpack things the labor movement is against him. That's the irony nowadays; that the people who could most use organization are those that shun it completely.

Do you honestly think business will be made content? That the thirst for profit will ever be quenched by a workforce that exists in America?

edit:
One thing to note is that I work at a small business. I'm on relatively equal footing. I will fight tooth and goddamn nail for my company to succeed. There isn't anything more in life that I appreciate more than working. I'm virulent with the Protestant work ethic. I'm not anti-capital, I'm pro capital-labor equality. Both sides need each other equally.

[StanUpshaw]

You'll find your reasons to hate unions but just bear in mind how much you have because of them. Considering them an antiquity just shows how powerful they are that they succeeded so wildly. Granted, they're not perfect. They've done inexcusable things. What it comes down to though is whether you want the business looking out for you or your fellow man. Guess which one is going to help you out and which one is going to cut ties with you the second something marginally more profitable comes along? That's why you can't call tech support or customer service for nearly anything without having an ESL operator picking up.

That's why nothing is built in America. Demonized unions, demonized workers and demonized labor movements. When it comes down to it, business wants to fuck you. They have enough money to make sure their message is crafted perfectly so that Joe Sixpack things the labor movement is against him. That's the irony nowadays; that the people who could most use organization are those that shun it completely.

Do you honestly think business will be made content? That the thirst for profit will ever be quenched by a workforce that exists in America?

edit:
One thing to note is that I work at a small business. I'm on relatively equal footing. I will fight tooth and goddamn nail for my company to succeed. There isn't anything more in life that I appreciate more than working. I'm virulent with the Protestant work ethic. I'm not anti-capital, I'm pro capital-labor equality. Both sides need each other equally.

How do you justify your American exceptionalism? Why do you believe that Americans deserve to be paid more than a foreigner of equal skill? Your greed and jingoism is fucking sick.

[Syd]

How do you justify your American exceptionalism? Why do you believe that Americans deserve to be paid more than a foreigner of equal skill? Your greed and jingoism is fucking sick.

Why do American workers deserve to be laid off because it's marginally more profitable to build something in China instead of employing Americans? They're building our HDTVs and growing cattle for our hamburgers because their living conditions suck and it is extremely cheap to pay them. Once it becomes too expensive for them to build it, they'll get fucked by capital just the same.

I don't believe in American exceptionalism but I do believe that too much blood has been spilled for America to give up what workers fought for so that we can have a $1000 HDTV instead of a $1400 HDTV. Either take ownership of your future or pretend it is worth it to have things be marginally cheaper. That may make me a fascist in your eyes but I'd ever so rather be a fascist than someone living on my knees waiting for that sword of Damocles to come down on my head when the economy collapses. That's all we are unless we take interest in building things in America instead of selling shit back and forth to each other.

[Dude!]

Why do American workers deserve to be laid off because it's marginally more profitable to build something in China instead of employing Americans? They're building our HDTVs and growing cattle for our hamburgers because their living conditions suck and it is extremely cheap to pay them. Once it becomes too expensive for them to build it, they'll get fucked by capital just the same.

I don't believe in American exceptionalism but I do believe that too much blood has been spilled for America to give up what workers fought for so that we can have a $1000 HDTV instead of a $1400 HDTV. Either take ownership of your future or pretend it is worth it to have things be marginally cheaper. That may make me a fascist in your eyes but I'd ever so rather be a fascist than someone living on my knees waiting for that sword of Damocles to come down on my head when the economy collapses. That's all we are unless we take interest in building things in America instead of selling shit back and forth to each other.

i bet you shop
only at Walmart
you hypocrite

[Syd]

i bet you shop
only at Walmart
you hypocrite

If given the chance I shop at union stores, use union labor and buy union goods. Even if it costs more, I know that money is going toward creating a better life for those that come after us. I have no interest in selling off the future of this country so I can save a buck.

[StanUpshaw]

You're doing everything you can to ensure that the already crazy wealthy American keeps all of the pie, while telling the developing world to go fuck itself.

[underdog]

You're doing everything you can to ensure that the already crazy wealthy American keeps all of the pie, while telling the developing world to go fuck itself.

I'm pretty sure that's just being an American.

[Syd]

It is hardly America's fault that ex-colonies are having a tough time developing. Maybe they should ask their former masters for a handout instead of stealing from our cookie jar?

[StanUpshaw]

It is hardly America's fault that ex-colonies are having a tough time developing. Maybe they should ask their former masters for a handout instead of stealing from our cookie jar?

Free and open trade is not stealing, dummy.

[Syd]

Free and open trade is not stealing, dummy.

:lol:

[StanUpshaw]

:lol:


Generalized Dismissiveness of Ideas that you do not agree with. Classic Liberal Lefty.

Is there some seminar you guys all take?

[Syd]

Is there some seminar you guys all take?

I played along with you trying to paint me as a racist for however many posts now because I figured it'd be amusing to see you try and reconcile your self-loathing of not creating anything in life against your hatred of labor.

When you're just listing whatever bogus shit you read off of some Gordon Gekko fanfic I'm finished playing your reindeer games. You have your preconceived notions and there's nothing that will change them. I have no interest in replying to a eunuch of capitalism and I love the :lol: emoticon so I figured I'd end it there :smoke:

[StanUpshaw]

You're truly the hanso of economics.

[Syd]

You don't have to be a genius to figure out what happened to the Rust Belt. Take a trip through there and talk to the locals and see what they think of your "I need my HDTV to be so goddamn cheap it bankrupts the nation" mentality. Plus, all that commuting through there will let you consume so much in the process. Thank god none of it will be made in America, lest it cost marginally more.

[conman823]

Why do American workers deserve to be laid off because it's marginally more profitable to build something in China instead of employing Americans? They're building our HDTVs and growing cattle for our hamburgers because their living conditions suck and it is extremely cheap to pay them. Once it becomes too expensive for them to build it, they'll get fucked by capital just the same.

I don't believe in American exceptionalism but I do believe that too much blood has been spilled for America to give up what workers fought for so that we can have a $1000 HDTV instead of a $1400 HDTV. Either take ownership of your future or pretend it is worth it to have things be marginally cheaper. That may make me a fascist in your eyes but I'd ever so rather be a fascist than someone living on my knees waiting for that sword of Damocles to come down on my head when the economy collapses. That's all we are unless we take interest in building things in America instead of selling shit back and forth to each other.

Sounds like those countries need unions.

We import everything because its cheaper labor. I don't like it, I don't like seeing people put out on the street in this country. It obviously hurt our own dollar in the long run but that doesn't stop the greed of organized labor. There greed and stubborn refusal to change there own status quo leads to job loses in America. There's no better way to put it. Nobody wants to pay extra for a TV just to support American products and help pay someone else's pension.

[spoon]

I dont care what party the candidate belongs to, if he has good idea's I will vote for him..

As of right now I lean Democrat because the Reps are bat shit insane.

So you wouldn't vote for a woman?

Kevin has been quoted as saying, "women's suffrage, more like we all suffer!"

[spoon]

see, that's what I can't fucking stand.

Each politician is different and doesn't represent the entire party.

Palin is a Republican. Chris Christie is a Republican. One I despise, the other is a 400 pound reincarnation of Reagan.

And I can't STAND how people have bought into the bullshit notion that Reagan is the patron saint of great leaders and policy. He was fucking awful in so many ways, but could speak bc he was a fucking ACTOR. I truly hate 95% of Reagan's policy and laugh at the attempts to make him out to be a great president. If anything, Reaganomics was the start of the US losing it's economic dominance and was the first brick in the road to a lot of our problems.

[spoon]

I'd vote Labor if it existed in America. I believe in the American worker and the need to create a middle class who builds instead of consumes. I favor social reform to move away from welfare and more towards jobs programs (think New Deal)

With that being said, I haven't seen really any candidate worth voting for because they reflect my ideals. I tend to vote for the leftist candidate or whoever at least is pro-union/pro-worker. I'm off to the extreme left of the Democratic party and I hate voting for them but sometimes you just gotta do it.

I'm pretty much on the same page, but will sway based on the ebb and flow or each election based on the current need and unfortunately the all to often selection based on the lesser of two evils. There are other times when balance is needed so the opposite of what party was in power for a long period of time is needed to scale back social programs, government buildup (although W did more than Obama truth be told) or corporation involvement in government for example. Christie wasn't a terrible selection overall for NJ bc we've been taxed at insane levels for way too long and waste/corruption is running a muck. To say NJ politics was/still is in need of changes is putting it lightly. I hope he swings the pendulum the other way somewhat, but not too far to put us on the other side of all these problems.

[booster11373]

And I can't STAND how people have bought into the bullshit notion that Reagan is the patron saint of great leaders and policy. He was fucking awful in so many ways, but could speak bc he was a fucking ACTOR. I truly hate 95% of Reagan's policy and laugh at the attempts to make him out to be a great president. If anything, Reaganomics was the start of the US losing it's economic dominance and was the first brick in the road to a lot of our problems.

In the modern era Republicans were looking for their FDR for some reason they think Reagan fits.

I grew up in the Reagan era and thought he was great because he was keeping us safe from the commies and was a generally reassuring President only when I got older did I realize his fiscal and domestic policy choices are having long term negative effects.

[Syd]

Sounds like those countries need unions.

Absolutely, and unions are forming slowly but surely elsewhere as workers begin to organize. Why do you think at FoxConn they shot up everyone's salaries out of nowhere? To try and stifle collective bargaining.

We import everything because its cheaper labor. I don't like it, I don't like seeing people put out on the street in this country. It obviously hurt our own dollar in the long run but that doesn't stop the greed of organized labor. There greed and stubborn refusal to change there own status quo leads to job loses in America. There's no better way to put it. Nobody wants to pay extra for a TV just to support American products and help pay someone else's pension.

Obviously things shouldn't needlessly cost more and unions have their problems. They become mirrors of the corporations they fight. Still, their green and ineptitude pales in comparison to that of businesses.

There was a lot of talk about "wealth creation" and "wealth redistribution" during the '08 campaign. Funny thing is, both candidates were rather narrow sighted with that. Wealth creation has nothing to do with taxes and has everything to do with taking raw product and creating a durable good of higher worth through craftsmanship. America does little of that now and simply repackages durable goods and creates no extra worth or, at best, creates perishable goods. No wealth is created in the process and what wealth was spent slowly moves upwards away from the middle class. The bulk of society is drained slowly and unrelentingly.

When you talk taxes in that, then you can see why wealth redistribution is good to alleviate the pressures of a service economy on a depressed class. Is that the optimal solution? Of course not. You create durable goods and you keep taxes low because the worker is more flush with money and pockets of wealth hover around the middle class. There's no need/less need for a welfare system and other social safety nets. That's how you strike a balance between liberals and conservatives. Of course with that, the top 1% won't be making as much money as they would under a system of Reaganomics so fat chance of that ever happening. Neoliberal fiscal policy, for better or worse, is here to stay.

[Dude!]

only when I got older did I realize his fiscal and domestic policy choices are having long term negative effects.

such as ?

[Syd]

such as ?

The War on Drugs? There's no defending that abomination.

[booster11373]

such as ?

Do the work yourself it will do you some good.

[badmonkey]

Do the work yourself it will do you some good.

He should look around for examples of Reagan's fiscal and domestic policy choices that you think "are having long term negative effects"? I didn't realize that your opinions were so widely published. You should at least give him a link to your blog.

[Dude!]

The War on Drugs? There's no defending that abomination.

it would have had a
"short-term negative effect"
if Clinton, Bush and Obama
had not continued it

it could have been stopped
many years ago
by any of the above

so don't blame reagan
for the 'long term negative effects'

[Dude!]

He should look around for examples of Reagan's fiscal and domestic policy choices that you think "are having long term negative effects"? I didn't realize that your opinions were so widely published. You should at least give him a link to your blog.

he's got nothing

[badmonkey]

he's got nothing

newsletter?

[Serpico1103]

Interesting article on how the right twists Reagan to meet their current agenda. (http://www.newsweek.com/2010/07/09/what-would-reagan-really-do.html)

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Interesting article on how the right twists Reagan to meet their current agenda. (http://www.newsweek.com/2010/07/09/what-would-reagan-really-do.html)

From the newsweek article

"Grown men don’t tend to worship other grown men"

Oh really ?

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/vyHDYBpE8aA?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/vyHDYBpE8aA?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

The fucking obsession with FDR has got to be one of the biggest ones ever.

No wonder that rag was sold for a dollar

[Serpico1103]

From the newsweek article

"Grown men don’t tend to worship other grown men"

Oh really ?

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/vyHDYBpE8aA?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/vyHDYBpE8aA?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

The fucking obsession with FDR has got to be one of the biggest ones ever.

No wonder that rag was sold for a dollar

I love how you turn everything back to Obama. It is impossible to have a conversation with you. Obama is not perfect, Reagan's ghost isn't either,

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I love how you turn everything back to Obama. It is impossible to have a conversation with you. Obama is not perfect, Reagan's ghost isn't either,

I was pointing out the 1st line in that article and how ridiculous it is.

Neither was FDR and his magic wheelchair

[Serpico1103]

I was pointing out the 1st line in that article and how ridiculous it is.

Neither was FDR and his magic wheelchair

There was a discussion on Reagan and how his policies turned out in retrospect. I posted a relevant recent article. You respond with "FDR was a cripple." You don't see how that is childish?

[StanUpshaw]

Not fa nuthin, but I closed the tab after reading the first line of the article. It seemed too childish to continue with.

[spoon]

wow that stanupshaw avatar is surely going to end well

[Ogre]

[QUOTE=Ogre;2756691]



So you weren't afraid of your government when they started tapping and taping your phone calls and going through personal info?

But that was for the "good of the nation" right?

I really have nothing to hide so, no that didn't bother me. What I am afraid of is that I am White, Middle Class, mid 40s who makes enough to PAY taxes.

Examining Mr. Obama's and Mr. Holder's behaivor in their decisions, I would say that I, and people like me are the people that they see as having an unfair advantage that they will correct. By Hook or by crook.

You see I have it far too good and they will fix that. In their world I am a White Man therefore my gains are somehow ill-gotten. Their objective, if you watch their behavior and decisions, look to tax even more and give my cash to people they decide need it more than me. Even though I earned it through hard work and Entrepenurial risk and investment.

The Government should not be in the business of Handicapping winners and losers.

The President and Attorney General have made it clear that race factors into their policy decisions. So by being a male, niddle aged member of the race that is not "favored" by this administration scares me.

[Crispy123]

[QUOTE=Kevin;2756764]

I really have nothing to hide so, no that didn't bother me. What I am afraid of is that I am White, Middle Class, mid 40s who makes enough to PAY taxes.

Examining Mr. Obama's and Mr. Holder's behaivor in their decisions, I would say that I, and people like me are the people that they see as having an unfair advantage that they will correct. By Hook or by crook.

You see I have it far too good and they will fix that. In their world I am a White Man therefore my gains are somehow ill-gotten. Their objective, if you watch their behavior and decisions, look to tax even more and give my cash to people they decide need it more than me. Even though I earned it through hard work and Entrepenurial risk and investment.

The Government should not be in the business of Handicapping winners and losers.

The President and Attorney General have made it clear that race factors into their policy decisions. So by being a male, niddle aged member of the race that is not "favored" by this administration scares me.

HAHAHA!!! What fear-mongering, rascist BULLSHIT. Maybe you should bring some MOUNTAIN DEW and CHEETOS to the next tea party?

Middle-income Americans are now paying federal taxes at or near historically low levels, according to the latest available data. That’s true whether it comes to their federal income taxes or their total federal taxes.

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3151

[Kevin]

[QUOTE=Ogre;2757672]

HAHAHA!!! What fear-mongering, rascist BULLSHIT. Maybe you should bring some MOUNTAIN DEW and CHEETOS to the next tea party?



http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3151

Just making it clear that I did not write that.. Ogre did..

[Crispy123]

Just making it clear that I did not write that.. Ogre did..

yeah...but you were thinking it.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

[QUOTE=Ogre;2757672]

HAHAHA!!! What fear-mongering, rascist BULLSHIT. Maybe you should bring some MOUNTAIN DEW and CHEETOS to the next tea party?



http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3151

When people are losing homes to foreclosure, mass unemployment and wages decrease ,disposable income drops of course they will not pay those taxes

I know property taxes are more of a local level but it should be factored in overall

[Crispy123]

When people are losing homes to foreclosure, mass unemployment and wages decrease ,disposable income drops of course they will not pay those taxes

I know property taxes are more of a local level but it should be factored in overall

Oh well now that you mention it, this totally expplains how a man with an African father who split when he was 3 that was raised by his white mom and grandma in Hawaii hates white people. And it totally explains how keeping middle class tax rates at historic lows he wants to punish the "good" white people and reward the "bad" brown people.

[A.J.]

Hawaii hates white people.

Fuckin' haoles.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Oh well now that you mention it, this totally expplains how a man with an African father who split when he was 3 that was raised by his white mom and grandma in Hawaii hates white people. And it totally explains how keeping middle class tax rates at historic lows he wants to punish the "good" white people and reward the "bad" brown people.

Well they all were in line in Detroit to get it from OBAMAS STASH!!!!!

[Crispy123]

Fuckin' haoles.

whatever, Barney.

http://www.lat34.com/_/Image/_/john.jpg

[Barnaby Jones]

That is paranoia on the highest level! And I'm saying that out of feeling bad for you over that! It must be terrible to go through life with that kind of fear!

[TjM]

I am of the firm belief the middle class will continue to get fucked no matter who's in.

[Syd]

I am of the firm belief the middle class will continue to get fucked no matter who's in.

Pretty much this. There's no unity amongst any group of peers in this country. The middle class will keep arguing about illegal immigration, abortion and whether or not Lost had a coherent plot from the start. No one gives a particular shit about the country constantly losing wealth-creating jobs in favor of wealth-transferring jobs.

[Ogre]

Yep I said it I own it.

If you are looking to label someone a racist look no further than 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. He has shown that race matters to him and effects his decisions. Making policy based on race is in effect racist. Mr. Holder is in the same boat. Ask yourself why was the NB Panther Party case dropped by the DOJ after having a slam dunk conviciton in their sights ?

Somebody asked me why I am afriad of my Government. Because rule of law means nothing to this group.

So all of you little fucktards that run to call someone a racist, go ahead have fun if it makes you feel better, but you know what I am saying is true.

The real racists were people that voted for our President solely because he was Black.

[angrymissy]

The Black Panther case was reviewed and dropped by the Bush Administration... and the Obama administration pressed charges against one member and obtained a judgment against them... so I'm not really seeing where you're going there.

(It's Media Matters but cited)
http://mediamatters.org/research/201007070020

# The Bush administration's Justice Department -- not the Obama administration -- made the decision not to pursue criminal charges against members of the New Black Panther Party for alleged voter intimidation at a polling center in Philadelphia in 2008;
# The Obama administration successfully obtained default judgment against Samir Shabazz, a member of the New Black Panther Party carrying a nightstick outside the Philadelphia polling center on Election Day 2008;

[Serpico1103]

Yep I said it I own it.

If you are looking to label someone a racist look no further than 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. He has shown that race matters to him and effects his decisions. Making policy based on race is in effect racist. Mr. Holder is in the same boat. Ask yourself why was the NB Panther Party case dropped by the DOJ after having a slam dunk conviciton in their sights ?

Somebody asked me why I am afriad of my Government. Because rule of law means nothing to this group.

So all of you little fucktards that run to call someone a racist, go ahead have fun if it makes you feel better, but you know what I am saying is true.

The real racists were people that voted for our President solely because he was Black.

And I am sure you will agree, people that didn't vote for him because he was black are also real racists (as we all now define the word).

[Barnaby Jones]

Who broke Ogre? That poor guy needs some help!

[angrymissy]

Ogre, you seem really angry about things that are false (Obama gives Black Panthers a pass) or have not even happened (tax increase).

I don't know if this will fall on deaf ears but I implore you to please educate yourself on these issues before getting into a tizzy about them... you seem to have some incorrect information and it's important to know the facts.

I am a white woman in my 30s who gets taxed out the rear end and I am not panicking.

[Ogre]

The Black Panther case was reviewed and dropped by the Bush Administration... and the Obama administration pressed charges against one member and obtained a judgment against them... so I'm not really seeing where you're going there.

(It's Media Matters but cited)
http://mediamatters.org/research/201007070020

In the first week of January, the Justice Department filed a civil lawsuit against the New Black Panther Party and three of its members, saying they violated the 1965 Voting Rights Act by scaring voters with the weapon, uniforms and racial slurs. In March, Mr. Bull submitted an affidavit at Justice's request to support its lawsuit.
When none of the defendants filed any response to the complaint or appeared in federal district court in Philadelphia to answer the suit, it appeared almost certain Justice would have prevailed by default. Instead, the department in May suddenly allowed the party and two of the three defendants to walk away. Against the third defendant, Minister King Samir Shabazz, it sought only an injunction barring him from displaying a weapon within 100 feet of a Philadelphia polling place for the next three years—action that's already illegal under existing law.

WSJ 8/20/2009 (http://online.wsj.com/article/NA_WSJ_PUB:SB1000142405297020355060457436107196845 8430.html)

[underdog]

In the first week of January, the Justice Department filed a civil lawsuit against the New Black Panther Party and three of its members, saying they violated the 1965 Voting Rights Act by scaring voters with the weapon, uniforms and racial slurs. In March, Mr. Bull submitted an affidavit at Justice's request to support its lawsuit.
When none of the defendants filed any response to the complaint or appeared in federal district court in Philadelphia to answer the suit, it appeared almost certain Justice would have prevailed by default. Instead, the department in May suddenly allowed the party and two of the three defendants to walk away. Against the third defendant, Minister King Samir Shabazz, it sought only an injunction barring him from displaying a weapon within 100 feet of a Philadelphia polling place for the next three years—action that's already illegal under existing law.

WSJ 8/20/2009 (http://online.wsj.com/article/NA_WSJ_PUB:SB1000142405297020355060457436107196845 8430.html)

Obama wasn't the president the first week of January 2009.

[angrymissy]

Please read the link I provided, it explains in great detail what went down.

You should be irate at the Bush admin for this, not the Obama admin.

In the first week of January, the Justice Department filed a civil lawsuit against the New Black Panther Party and three of its members, saying they violated the 1965 Voting Rights Act by scaring voters with the weapon, uniforms and racial slurs. In March, Mr. Bull submitted an affidavit at Justice's request to support its lawsuit.
When none of the defendants filed any response to the complaint or appeared in federal district court in Philadelphia to answer the suit, it appeared almost certain Justice would have prevailed by default. Instead, the department in May suddenly allowed the party and two of the three defendants to walk away. Against the third defendant, Minister King Samir Shabazz, it sought only an injunction barring him from displaying a weapon within 100 feet of a Philadelphia polling place for the next three years—action that's already illegal under existing law.

WSJ 8/20/2009 (http://online.wsj.com/article/NA_WSJ_PUB:SB1000142405297020355060457436107196845 8430.html)

[Kevin]

Obama wasn't the president the first week of January 2009.



Thats just a silly detail..

[angrymissy]

This is an example of believing and repeating things you read on blogs or see on opinion shows without researching the facts for yourself.

Decision not to pursue criminal charges was made by Bush DOJ, not Obama

Bush DOJ, not Obama, made decision not to pursue criminal charges. Before President Bush left office, the Department of Justice filed a civil complaint asking for an injunction against the New Black Panther Party and some of its members. In his May 14 testimony before the Commission on Civil Rights, Assistant Attorney General Thomas Perez explained that the Bush administration's Justice Department "determined that the facts did not constitute a prosecutable violation of the criminal statutes" but did "file a civil action on January 7th, 2009." From Perez's testimony:

PEREZ: Moving to the matter at hand, the events occurred on November 4th, 2008. The Department became aware of these events on Election Day and decided to conduct further inquiry.

After reviewing the matter, the Civil Rights Division determined that the facts did not constitute a prosecutable violation of the criminal statutes. The Department did, however, file a civil action on January 7th, 2009, seeking injunctive and declaratory relief under 11(b) against four defendants.

[Serpico1103]

In the first week of January, the Justice Department filed a civil lawsuit against the New Black Panther Party and three of its members, saying they violated the 1965 Voting Rights Act by scaring voters with the weapon, uniforms and racial slurs. In March, Mr. Bull submitted an affidavit at Justice's request to support its lawsuit.
When none of the defendants filed any response to the complaint or appeared in federal district court in Philadelphia to answer the suit, it appeared almost certain Justice would have prevailed by default. Instead, the department in May suddenly allowed the party and two of the three defendants to walk away. Against the third defendant, Minister King Samir Shabazz, it sought only an injunction barring him from displaying a weapon within 100 feet of a Philadelphia polling place for the next three years—action that's already illegal under existing law.

WSJ 8/20/2009 (http://online.wsj.com/article/NA_WSJ_PUB:SB1000142405297020355060457436107196845 8430.html)

Was the Bush administration's decision to not file criminal charges racially motivated?

[Ogre]

The controversy erupted after the Obama Administration dropped most of a federal lawsuit against members of the New Black Panther Party, who were videotaped allegedly intimidating voters at a Philadelphia polling place on Election Day in November 2008.

CBS NEWS (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504564_162-20010581-504564.html)

[Ogre]

The civil suit filed Jan. 7 identified the three men as members of the Panthers and said they wore military-style uniforms, black berets, combat boots, battle-dress pants, black jackets with military-style insignias and were armed with "a dangerous weapon"and used racial slurs and insults to scare would-be voters and those there to assist them at the Philadelphia polling location on Nov. 4.

Washington Times (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/may/29/career-lawyers-overruled-on-voting-case/?feat=home_cube_position1)

I think Jan 7 2009 was still the Bush Administration.

[underdog]

my reading comprehension sucks.

[Serpico1103]

The civil suit filed Jan. 7 identified the three men as members of the Panthers and said they wore military-style uniforms, black berets, combat boots, battle-dress pants, black jackets with military-style insignias and were armed with "a dangerous weapon"and used racial slurs and insults to scare would-be voters and those there to assist them at the Philadelphia polling location on Nov. 4.

Washington Times (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/may/29/career-lawyers-overruled-on-voting-case/?feat=home_cube_position1)

I think Jan 7 2009 was still the Bush Administration.

Bush's admin dropped the criminal charges.

11(b) has only been used once before Bush, and that was to prosecute state wide voter oppression. From what I read, when the DOJ realized that the men at the polls were not part of a state wide or nation wide plot by the organization to intimidate voters, it decided to not pursue the case.

I believe career attorneys recommended dropping the case, not Obama appointees. It may have been a political decision, but the racial tone put on it by the right is, in my opinion, complete nonsense, used to bring out the racism in the "heartland."

Do you know what penalty the DOJ could have brought had they pursued the case fully?

[angrymissy]

Did you read anything I posted? The articles you are posting are all referencing Adams, he is discussed at length in the article I posted.... if you read more recent articles, you will find that the decision to not press charges was made by the Bush Administration before Obama even took office...

The Bush DOJ dropped charges and filed a Civil case, the Obama admin then pursued the civil case against the person who had the nightstick, and won a judgment.

So can you now explain to me your point? In words, not with copy and pasting of old news articles.

Also, are you aware that the Bush DOJ also didn't pursue charges against minutemen with GUNS doing the same thing the Black Panther party did? Where is your outrage over that?

[Barnaby Jones]

The New Black Panther Party are a bunch off assholes, but the details of the accusations at the polling place seem really inconsistent! Them being there was in general a very poor choice on their part, but it seems like any case against them would be really flimsy as that they didn't seem to actually do anything to keep people away! The NBPP are idiots, but pursuing a federal case against them seems like it would have been a waste of time and money since it seems to amount to little more than "scary black guys hanging around the polling place and one of them had a nightstick." Again, dumbass choices by the NBPP members, but if they were actually doing something why weren't the police called? Seems like even a civil suit against anyone except the guy with the nightstick would have been a waste of time!

[angrymissy]

Yep, which is exactly why the Bush Administration decided to drop charges and downgrade it to a civil case, and why the Obama Administration took action against only the guy with the nightstick.

[Serpico1103]

Also, are you aware that the Bush DOJ also didn't pursue charges against minutemen with GUNS doing the same thing the Black Panther party did? Where is your outrage over that?

If Fox didn't report it, it didn't happen.

[spoon]

Pretty much this. There's no unity amongst any group of peers in this country. The middle class will keep arguing about illegal immigration, abortion and whether or not Lost had a coherent plot from the start. No one gives a particular shit about the country constantly losing wealth-creating jobs in favor of wealth-transferring jobs.

This is at the heart of it all. What's funny is the republicans are now putting cunts like the ex HP CEO who pretty much sent all US based HP jobs overseas to help the company's bottom line and is heralded as a business guru and runs on a platform of being able to help the economy. Yes, one of the people that sold out her own country and slashed tons of good paying jobs to help the stock is going to help the US economy. I ask, what is her plan bc I'm sure there aren't many companies left to send abroad and bring our wages and manufacturing sectors down to all-time lows while the top benefit over and over again to robber baron standards of late.

[Crispy123]

Yep I said it I own it.

If you are looking to label someone a racist look no further than 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. He has shown that race matters to him and effects his decisions. Making policy based on race is in effect racist. Mr. Holder is in the same boat. Ask yourself why was the NB Panther Party case dropped by the DOJ after having a slam dunk conviciton in their sights ?

Somebody asked me why I am afriad of my Government. Because rule of law means nothing to this group.

So all of you little fucktards that run to call someone a racist, go ahead have fun if it makes you feel better, but you know what I am saying is true.

The real racists were people that voted for our President solely because he was Black.

To be clear Im not calling you out as a member of the AB or the klan. Race matters to everyone in this country and its been handled poorly from the beginning of recorded history so it shouldn't be a surprise that its being handled poorly now. The Shirley Sherrod case is the first thing that comes to mind, when it comes to the BHO admin. but to claim the guy is taxing the shit out of the middle class or that he is singling out & treating the white man worse than any other race is kind of rediculous.

[spoon]

i'm calling him an ogre

[StanUpshaw]

Pretty much this. There's no unity amongst any group of peers in this country. The middle class will keep arguing about illegal immigration, abortion and whether or not Lost had a coherent plot from the start. No one gives a particular shit about the country constantly losing wealth-creating jobs in favor of wealth-transferring jobs.

This is at the heart of it all. What's funny is the republicans are now putting cunts like the ex HP CEO who pretty much sent all US based HP jobs overseas to help the company's bottom line and is heralded as a business guru and runs on a platform of being able to help the economy. Yes, one of the people that sold out her own country and slashed tons of good paying jobs to help the stock is going to help the US economy. I ask, what is her plan bc I'm sure there aren't many companies left to send abroad and bring our wages and manufacturing sectors down to all-time lows while the top benefit over and over again to robber baron standards of late.

So let's say that a magical wizard instantly restores American manufacturing to its place of prominence. Then what? Your beloved union worker will not accept the pay that a foreign worker will, so prices will skyrocket. 25%? 50%? 100% increase for your goods?

Who is going to buy them? Sure, you can tariff the fuck out of foreign goods so you're forced to buy them domestically, but how do you expect to compete globally? Who would elect to prop up the downtrodden American citizen (lol) by purchasing an American TV at twice the price (three times, actually, since they will enact their own tariffs in retaliation)? And then how are we going to be able to purchase the foreign goods and raw materials we need when we don't have anything anyone wants to buy? What happens when you want to buy some bananas in your delusional isolationist wonderland?

Not to mention the legitimate humanitarian cost that you people refuse to address. Hundreds of millions in the developing world choose to go to work in the hell that is industrial manufacturing, rather than starve to death in their fucking bamboo lean-tos.

These fantasies people like you are promoting have no fucking basis in reality. Even if they were feasible, they are unconscionable.

[spoon]

So let's say that a magical wizard instantly restores American manufacturing to its place of prominence. Then what? Your beloved union worker will not accept the pay that a foreign worker will, so prices will skyrocket. 25%? 50%? 100% increase for your goods?

Who is going to buy them? Sure, you can tariff the fuck out of foreign goods so you're forced to buy them domestically, but how do you expect to compete globally? Who would elect to prop up the downtrodden American citizen (lol) by purchasing an American TV at twice the price (three times, actually, since they will enact their own tariffs in retaliation)? And then how are we going to be able to purchase the foreign goods and raw materials we need when we don't have anything anyone wants to buy? What happens when you want to buy some bananas in your delusional isolationist wonderland?

Not to mention the legitimate humanitarian cost that you people refuse to address. Hundreds of millions in the developing world choose to go to work in the hell that is industrial manufacturing, rather than starve to death in their fucking bamboo lean-tos.

These fantasies people like you are promoting have no fucking basis in reality. Even if they were feasible, they are unconscionable.

You're right, let's just continue (as we have for decades now which has led to this issue) to look away and never address this fact that all profits are linked to shipping our companies to 3rd world countries with HORRIBLE working conditions and workers/citizen's rights. Companies like Fiji water, HP and sooo many others and just let it all come tumbling down so as to see hedge funds and the elite make more money off the backs of the poor. Let's just continue to not even THINK of protecting the American worker, adding value to our products and keeping up with new technology in every arena and rely solely on the likes of China, Korea and Mexico to make cheap, sometimes contaminated goods. Your answer is so much better, look away and accept it. I'm no economists, but many have tackled this topic and have very good ideas. We can't just change it overnight bc it didn't happen overnight. It's that simple.

[Syd]

Not to mention the legitimate humanitarian cost that you people refuse to address. Hundreds of millions in the developing world choose to go to work in the hell that is industrial manufacturing, rather than starve to death in their fucking bamboo lean-tos.

Maybe you should read up on what life is like in the developing world with these great manufacturing jobs they have. I guess life is easier when you have substantial increases in birth defects and most of the people you know have been maimed in industrial accidents.

These fantasies people like you are promoting have no fucking basis in reality. Even if they were feasible, they are unconscionable.

So it's unconscionable to let Americans live in squalor because our HDTVs might cost too much? Either way, we understand that you don't want anything to cost too much so long as you don't have to worry about the future of the country you live in. I wish I could live in your world and not give a shit about what my kids will have to deal with.

[StanUpshaw]

:lol:

:wacko::lol:

Swim back kids, the water's too deep for you here.

[Syd]

if the water is too deep, we'll just use boats:

http://i35.tinypic.com/ztav05.jpg

Check out how easy and awesome their life is and how much we benefit by paying $50 less on an HDTV.

[spoon]

Swim back kids, the water's too deep for you here.

Yes my "beloved union workers" and I can't handle deep water filled with hyperbole and a banana-less "delusional isolationist wonderland".

[StanUpshaw]

Discussing trade with you is about at useful as trying to explain to tanless1 why you can't run a car on water.

[Syd]

Discussing trade with you is about at useful as trying to explain to tanless1 why you can't run a car on water.

http://i37.tinypic.com/rj493n.jpg

[Serpico1103]

So let's say that a magical wizard instantly restores American manufacturing to its place of prominence. Then what? Your beloved union worker will not accept the pay that a foreign worker will, so prices will skyrocket. 25%? 50%? 100% increase for your goods?



Prices will increase? Why? Because wages increase. Wouldn't that create a balance?

Unemployed people will now have jobs. So, how will the 25-100% increase in prices negatively impact a person that now has a job?

Will the goods be of higher quality? Therefore, while costing more to purchase, having a lower overall cost.

Is introducing modern manufacturing into 3rd world countries, without our wage, health, and safety standards, really helpful to anyone, but the global conglomerates?

Please respond with some derisive comment about my intellect or maturity.

[StanUpshaw]

Please respond with some derisive comment about my intellect or maturity.

I recall from an immigration thread that when it comes to economics, you're not even safe in the kiddie pool.

[Serpico1103]

I recall from an immigration thread that when it comes to economics, you're not even safe in the kiddie pool.

:wub:

[spoon]

Please respond with some derisive comment about my intellect or maturity.

:lol:

[Serpico1103]

:lol:

He is such a lil rascal.