Proud to be American!

[Serpico1103]

Infecting Guatemalans with STD's, in the 1940's, to study penicillin's affect on the diseases. The study was run by the same doctor in charge of the Tuskegee study. (http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/americas/10/01/us.guatemala.apology/index.html?eref=mrss_igoogle_cnn)

[TjM]

Shit!

Somebody warn Tig

[Dude!]

Roosevelt was the most
racist cocksucker prez
we ever had

the japs into camps
a blind-eye (if not
outright approval)
of the germans gassing jews

Tuskegee and now this

[sailor]

Mikey's lucky not to be an American.

[A.J.]

If you watched Godfather II, I'm surprised they didn't do this study in Cuba.

[Earlshog]

The worst part of this atrocity was how the disease was implanted. J. Edgar Hoover personally infected each Guatemalan

[Judge Smails]

Proud to be American

. . . where at least I know I'm STD free

[Earlshog]

. . . where at least I know I'm STD free

my cousin got the clap from a Guatemalan waitress he met at café de Grande... funny how life works

[TripleSkeet]

Ok, I get the outcry, the apology to Guatemala, and the outing of what happened.

But why the fuck do we as taxpayers have to fund and investigation about this? Really. It happened 60 fucking years ago! Apologize and move on. Why throw money at something so fucking pointless?

[Serpico1103]

Ok, I get the outcry, the apology to Guatemala, and the outing of what happened.

But why the fuck do we as taxpayers have to fund and investigation about this? Really. It happened 60 fucking years ago! Apologize and move on. Why throw money at something so fucking pointless?

Public relations. As taxpayers you are not the victims of the government. You are responsible for its actions.

[sailor]

Public relations. As taxpayers you are not the victims of the government. You are responsible for its actions.


I hope they censure those responsible and make sure they never do it again.

[TripleSkeet]

I hope they censure those responsible and make sure they never do it again.

Are any of them still alive?

[booster11373]

Ok, I get the outcry, the apology to Guatemala, and the outing of what happened.

But why the fuck do we as taxpayers have to fund and investigation about this? Really. It happened 60 fucking years ago! Apologize and move on. Why throw money at something so fucking pointless?

This shit unless it gets addressed has a tendency to keep coming back. The Armenian genocide is a good example.

[Willmore]

Infecting Guatemalans with STD's, in the 1940's, to study penicillin's affect on the diseases. The study was run by the same doctor in charge of the Tuskegee study. (http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/americas/10/01/us.guatemala.apology/index.html?eref=mrss_igoogle_cnn)

Would you rather we tested it on the poor innocent animals?

PETA4LIFE

[Willmore]

Ok, I get the outcry, the apology to Guatemala, and the outing of what happened.

But why the fuck do we as taxpayers have to fund and investigation about this? Really. It happened 60 fucking years ago! Apologize and move on. Why throw money at something so fucking pointless?

Because Sociology majors need something to do, they can't work in any industry, so they make up commissions and investigations for them to participate in.

[TripleSkeet]

This shit unless it gets addressed has a tendency to keep coming back. The Armenian genocide is a good example.

Im gonna go out on a limb here and say that if anyone had the balls to try this today, they would do it with or without this case being investigated. Just another waste of money.

[Dude!]

As taxpayers you are not the victims of the government. You are responsible for its actions.

so, the 50% of americans
who don't pay taxes
aren't responsible for
its actions?

[keithy_19]

Would you rather we tested it on the poor innocent animals?

PETA4LIFE

https://secure.peta.org/images/content/pagebuilder/21321.jpg

Seriously. I got free stickers of this. Love elephants.

[sailor]

Are any of them still alive?

They're at least not active (for a long while now) which was my point. I'm on your side. Was I too subtle?

[KnoxHarrington]

Come on, you didn't expect us to give white people syphalis now did you?

USA USA USA USA USA

[Serpico1103]

so, the 50% of americans
who don't pay taxes
aren't responsible for
its actions?

My point, without reading your bias into it, is that being a taxpayer does not absolve you of responsibility. As a citizen in a democratic republic you are responsible for the government's actions.
Don't like it? Live in an oppressive military dictatorship where you can claim helplessness.

[Serpico1103]

Would you rather we tested it on the poor innocent animals?

PETA4LIFE

Just hate when people are surprised that the whole world doesn't love us.

[TripleSkeet]

They're at least not active (for a long while now) which was my point. I'm on your side. Was I too subtle?

No. I think I was. I was backing your point up. lol

My point, without reading your bias into it, is that being a taxpayer does not absolve you of responsibility. As a citizen in a democratic republic you are responsible for the government's actions.
Don't like it? Live in an oppressive military dictatorship where you can claim helplessness.

I think those responsible are dead and buried...much like the victims. Its been brought to light, the information is now public, its time to move on.

Is the next step giving payoffs to their descendants? Thats another thing I just find ridiculous. "Hey your great grandpa shot my great grandpa in the face over a card game. Give me money."

[Dude!]

My point, without reading your bias into it, is that being a taxpayer does not absolve you of responsibility. As a citizen in a democratic republic you are responsible for the government's actions.
Don't like it? Live in an oppressive military dictatorship where you can claim helplessness.

you're the biased one

i shouted out
'who killed the kennedys'
when after all
it was you and me

i bet you believe that too

[Serpico1103]

Is the next step giving payoffs to their descendants? Thats another thing I just find ridiculous. "Hey your great grandpa shot my great grandpa in the face over a card game. Give me money."
It is about accepting responsibility for what happened, that is most important.

you're the biased one

i shouted out
'who killed the kennedys'
when after all
it was you and me

i bet you believe that too

You are entering Morken territory.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

My point, without reading your bias into it, is that being a taxpayer does not absolve you of responsibility. As a citizen in a democratic republic you are responsible for the government's actions.
Don't like it? Live in an oppressive military dictatorship where you can claim helplessness.

My my, hey hey, how many babies did Obama kill today ?

http://news.antiwar.com/2010/09/27/cia-dramatically-escalating-drone-strikes-against-pakistan/

[Serpico1103]

My my, hey hey, how many babies did Obama kill today ?

http://news.antiwar.com/2010/09/27/cia-dramatically-escalating-drone-strikes-against-pakistan/

Did Obama slit their throats? Why is he responsible?

[TripleSkeet]

It is about accepting responsibility for what happened, that is most important.

Kinda tough to do that when most of the people that are actually responsible for it are dead. It has been exposed. To put money into an investigation of this is equivalent to lighting it on fire.

[Serpico1103]

Kinda tough to do that when most of the people that are actually responsible for it are dead. It has been exposed. To put money into an investigation of this is equivalent to lighting it on fire.

Most of this is for public relations. It is cheaper to throw a little money at the problem now, than allow it to be used as a talking point for anti-American sentiment.

I didn't hear all these complaints about Germany having to still pay off its WWI debt. That was before this incident.

[RoseBlood]

Would you rather we tested it on the poor innocent animals?

PETA4LIFE

https://secure.peta.org/images/content/pagebuilder/21321.jpg

Seriously. I got free stickers of this. Love elephants.

The thought of you walking around with that elephant plastered on your sad angry journal doesn't help the cause much.

Seriously, Peta's animal rights campaigns are as effective as the anti-smoking campaigns... nil.

[Willmore]

Just hate when people are surprised that the whole world doesn't love us.

Those petty assholes. And after we saved them from 4 world wars (or however many there were, I was homeschooled)

[Willmore]

The thought of you walking around with that elephant plastered on your sad angry journal doesn't help the cause much.

Seriously, Peta's animal rights campaigns are as effective as the anti-smoking campaigns... nil.

They were kind of effective at giving me a boner when they had those naked chicks in cages bit.

[TripleSkeet]

Most of this is for public relations. It is cheaper to throw a little money at the problem now, than allow it to be used as a talking point for anti-American sentiment.

I didn't hear all these complaints about Germany having to still pay off its WWI debt. That was before this incident.

Um...Germany paying off its war debt was an agreement reached BACK THEN. If today, France and Poland decided to come out and say that Germany should have to pay them money starting now for WW1 or 2 I would find it equally ridiculous.

[Serpico1103]

Um...Germany paying off its war debt was an agreement reached BACK THEN. If today, France and Poland decided to come out and say that Germany should have to pay them money starting now for WW1 or 2 I would find it equally ridiculous.

The study wasn't public knowledge until now. I think France and Poland knew about WWI when it was happening.
Either way it is a debt for a past event. As far as it being an "agreement", that is debatable, and it certainly wasn't an agreement any German living today made. Why should they be held to an agreement their great grandfather made?

[keithy_19]

The thought of you walking around with that elephant plastered on your sad angry journal doesn't help the cause much.

Seriously, Peta's animal rights campaigns are as effective as the anti-smoking campaigns... nil.

I also have a t-shirt. But I agree with you, it doesn't really do anything.

[keithy_19]

Why should they be held to an agreement their great grandfather made?

A lot of lawyers are Jewish?

[Furtherman]

A lot of lawyers are Jewish?

And Puerto Rican.

[keithy_19]

And Puerto Rican.

:thumbup:

[TripleSkeet]

The study wasn't public knowledge until now. I think France and Poland knew about WWI when it was happening.
Either way it is a debt for a past event. As far as it being an "agreement", that is debatable, and it certainly wasn't an agreement any German living today made. Why should they be held to an agreement their great grandfather made?

That right there is my problem. Fuck that. Im sorry but I dont believe that if something was done to your ancestors, by my ancestors, that I should have to pay you anything. Thats fucking ridiculous.

Your WW2 comparison isnt even in the same ballpark. The German government made that agreement because they lost a war! Their grandfathers didnt make that agreement, their government did. All theyve been doing is living up to their agreement.

This should be looked at for exactly what it was. A black eye on American history. One that hopefully weve advanced a long way from in the past 60 years. But to say the people of Guatemala deserve a payout?? Thats ambulance chaser talk. I guess you believe in reparations for people whos relatives theyve never met or spoken to were once slaves too huh?

[Serpico1103]

That right there is my problem. Fuck that. Im sorry but I dont believe that if something was done to your ancestors, by my ancestors, that I should have to pay you anything. Thats fucking ridiculous.

Your WW2 comparison isnt even in the same ballpark. The German government made that agreement because they lost a war! Their grandfathers didnt make that agreement, their government did. All theyve been doing is living up to their agreement.

This should be looked at for exactly what it was. A black eye on American history. One that hopefully weve advanced a long way from in the past 60 years. But to say the people of Guatemala deserve a payout?? Thats ambulance chaser talk. I guess you believe in reparations for people whos relatives theyve never met or spoken to were once slaves too huh?

I think you are struggling through this. Yes, the government made the agreement. Now, the government just finished paying the debt.
Who would pay money in the Guatemala case? Our government.
Do you think the German government gets its money in a different way than ours does?
If our government agrees to pay Guatemala, how is that different from Germany agreeing to pay the Allies? The study was hidden from the Guatemalan government, so the timing to me is irrelevant. When the injury was discovered, recovery is sought.
If your father was intentionally given syphilis, without his permission, you would have the same attitude? That a simple apology is enough?
If i murder your father, and I am not caught for 40 years, would you just say " fuck it, he was just an ancestor."
Again, it is about owning the bad deed. Putting substance behind the apology. Giving money to Guatemala health care or something like that. I am not talking about buying the descendants or victims forgiveness.

[Recyclerz]

A lot of lawyers are Jewish?


And Puerto Rican.

or both!

http://www.thehotjoints.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/15_21_350_geraldo_rivera.jpg

[Recyclerz]

you're the biased one

i shouted out
'who killed the kennedys'
when after all
it was you and me

i bet you believe that too

Nope, just you.


But let me help our BFF Dude! with another argument from what I believe to be his side of the fence:

If syphillis was good
enough for A. Lincoln
it is fine for Honduran
criminals and putas! :innocent:

[TripleSkeet]

I think you are struggling through this. Yes, the government made the agreement. Now, the government just finished paying the debt.
Who would pay money in the Guatemala case? Our government.
Do you think the German government gets its money in a different way than ours does?
If our government agrees to pay Guatemala, how is that different from Germany agreeing to pay the Allies? The study was hidden from the Guatemalan government, so the timing to me is irrelevant. When the injury was discovered, recovery is sought.
If your father was intentionally given syphilis, without his permission, you would have the same attitude? That a simple apology is enough?
If i murder your father, and I am not caught for 40 years, would you just say " fuck it, he was just an ancestor."
Again, it is about owning the bad deed. Putting substance behind the apology. Giving money to Guatemala health care or something like that. I am not talking about buying the descendants or victims forgiveness.

This is where you and I differ. Sorry your dad was murdered, but the guys that did it are dead and buried. Its not our problem. Time to move on.

But I agree if its like you said at the end of your post and not basically just buying forgiveness.


Also, would you feel the same way if this was discovered, say 150 years from now where nobody living in Guatemala was directly affected by it?

[dino_electropolis]

Did anyone actually read details about the study???

"The tests were carried out on female commercial sex workers, prisoners in the national penitentiary, patients in the national mental hospital and soldiers. According to the study, more than 1,600 people were infected: 696 with syphilis, 772 with gonorrhea and 142 with chancres."

Lets all take off our 21st century Politically Correct goggles and look at what was happening at that time. They were testing the effectiveness of medicines....for the benefit of the American people. So some hookers, murderers and nutjobs got some bumps on their naughty parts.

Big fkn deal people.


....any allusions to Nazi germany are just way out of line.

[Ogre]

You are entering Morken territory.

http://www.concoxions.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/mork.jpg

[TripleSkeet]

Did anyone actually read details about the study???

"The tests were carried out on female commercial sex workers, prisoners in the national penitentiary, patients in the national mental hospital and soldiers. According to the study, more than 1,600 people were infected: 696 with syphilis, 772 with gonorrhea and 142 with chancres."

Lets all take off our 21st century Politically Correct goggles and look at what was happening at that time. They were testing the effectiveness of medicines....for the benefit of the American people. So some hookers, murderers and nutjobs got some bumps on their naughty parts.

Big fkn deal people.


....any allusions to Nazi germany are just way out of line.

Yea I saw that.

[Serpico1103]

Did anyone actually read details about the study???

"The tests were carried out on female commercial sex workers, prisoners in the national penitentiary, patients in the national mental hospital and soldiers. According to the study, more than 1,600 people were infected: 696 with syphilis, 772 with gonorrhea and 142 with chancres."

Lets all take off our 21st century Politically Correct goggles and look at what was happening at that time. They were testing the effectiveness of medicines....for the benefit of the American people. So some hookers, murderers and nutjobs got some bumps on their naughty parts.


Did you read into the study? Were all the infected prisoners convicted of murder? Did you forget about the soldiers?
Syphilis and gonorrhea not treated properly gives you more than "bumps on" your "naughty bits." Syphilis can lead to blindness and death.
They couldn't do the study in the US, that is a red flag.
The researcher who found out about this study, also found 40 over deliberate infection studies.

[StanUpshaw]

Almost on topic:

Did Mengele ever get any usable science out of all of the experimenting he was doing? Were there any conventional medical procedures that were borne of his work?

[Dude!]

Almost on topic:

Did Mengele ever get any usable science out of all of the experimenting he was doing? Were there any conventional medical procedures that were borne of his work?

yes...penicillin

but it needed testing

[A.J.]

Almost on topic:

Did Mengele ever get any usable science out of all of the experimenting he was doing? Were there any conventional medical procedures that were borne of his work?

http://www.geneticsandsociety.org/img/original/boysbrazil.jpg

[KnoxHarrington]

Almost on topic:

Did Mengele ever get any usable science out of all of the experimenting he was doing? Were there any conventional medical procedures that were borne of his work?

Mengele's "experiments" were totally fucked up and of no scientific merit. He was doing shit like injecting chemicals into the eyes of twins to attempt to change the color, and sewing twins together to create fake "conjoined twins". He was a batshit crazy sadistic psychopath who got to live out his demented fantasies for his own pleasure.

Some other Nazi experimentation, such as tests of chemical agents on live subjects, does seem to have some use, and did come up with usable data, and has caused real ethical dilemmas in some circles: can you use data that was found under such dreadful circumstances?