I wonder if this was Ron and Rand Paul's house

[Dudeman]

These hicks hate paying taxes so much they make paying for the fire department optional. Too bad a faith based initiative didn't step up to fight the fire. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_upshot/20101005/pl_yblog_upshot/rural-tennessee-fire-sparks-conservative-ideological-debate)

[sailor]

i feel bad for the guy, but he didn't pay for the services. if your colleagues chipped in for lotto tickets and hit big, would you expect to be cut in if you declined to join them in the first place?

[Dudeman]

i feel bad for the guy, but he didn't pay for the services. if your colleagues chipped in for lotto tickets and hit big, would you expect to be cut in if you declined to join them in the first place?

Another problem is that it put his neighbor's house at risk.

[sailor]

they basically had to take the hard-line approach here. otherwise, no one would sign up aforehand and then would pay the money only when they needed the service.

[Zorro]

These hicks hate paying taxes so much they make paying for the fire department optional. Too bad a faith based initiative didn't step up to fight the fire. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_upshot/20101005/pl_yblog_upshot/rural-tennessee-fire-sparks-conservative-ideological-debate)

Not sure why there's a debate. You don't pay your bills you don't get the service.

Wouldn't pay the $75.00, but I'll bet he had the best cable package.

[Zorro]

i feel bad for the guy, but he didn't pay for the services. if your colleagues chipped in for lotto tickets and hit big, would you expect to be cut in if you declined to join them in the first place?

of course I would. I just "forgot" to kick in

[booster11373]

Its the magic of the marketplace. privatize everything!

[Serpico1103]

Not sure why there's a debate. You don't pay your bills you don't get the service.

Wouldn't pay the $75.00, but I'll bet he had the best cable package.

There is no debate, just libertarians trying to do damage control.
Maybe this will help the residents accept it as a requirement instead of as an option. The homeowner thought they would put out his fire, even if he didn't pay. Free-riding ass.

[Zipgun]

How about you just put the fucking fire out in the interest of public safety and bill the fucking tightwad later?

[Serpico1103]

How about you just put the fucking fire out in the interest of public safety and bill the fucking tightwad later?

There was no danger to public safety. They may not have a system for billing. They have a system, pay $75 a year, he didn't.

The man was aware of the $75 charge. He thought he wouldn't pay it, and if he needed the fire department, they would come any way. He was completely aware and tried to take advantage.

[SatCam]

I wonder if this was Ron and Rand Paul's house

sorry to be sammy serious but if you actually think this is what happens to libertarians you are quite misled

[Dudeman]

How about you just put the fucking fire out in the interest of public safety and bill the fucking tightwad later?

The problem is that who would pay the monthly fee then... you just wait to see if you have a fire and then pay retrospectively. It seems like that would make it difficult to maintain a fire department that way. (as sailor already said above)

[Serpico1103]

sorry to be sammy serious but if you actually think this is what happens to libertarians you are quite misled

Can you point to a successful libertarian model, so we can learn from it?

[underdog]

sorry to be sammy serious but if you actually think this is what happens to libertarians you are quite misled

Rand Paul isn't much of a libertarian anymore.

[SatCam]

Can you point to a successful libertarian model, so we can learn from it?

1st of all, how is this not a successful model? they showed up to the neighbors house who paid the 75$.

2nd of all, yes this is a libertarian system in practice but my point was that being a libertarian doesnt mean that they dont have fire protection. the guy whos house burned down might not have been anything close to a libertarian. do you think that libertarians dont have health insurance, home owners insurance, car insurance, AAA, gym memberships, etc. etc.??

[Serpico1103]

1st of all, how is this not a successful model? they showed up to the neighbors house who paid the 75$.

2nd of all, yes this is a libertarian system in practice but my point was that being a libertarian doesnt mean that they dont have fire protection. the guy whos house burned down might not have been anything close to a libertarian. do you think that libertarians dont have health insurance, home owners insurance, car insurance, AAA, gym memberships, etc. etc.??

A libertarian system, not a single practice. We don't consider social security a communist system.
You have to have car insurance, home owners insurance (in most cases), etc, etc. It is not libertarian, if it is forced upon you.
I was asking for an entire system of government that runs close to the libertarian ideal.

[SatCam]

A libertarian system, not a single practice. We don't consider social security a communist system.
You have to have car insurance, home owners insurance (in most cases), etc, etc. It is not libertarian, if it is forced upon you.
I was asking for an entire system of government that runs close to the libertarian ideal.

ok. i am not a libertarian so i really have no interest in proving whether or not it can be successful, which i dont think it really can be on a large scale.

you and i live in densely populated areas of the country where economically liberal/socialist programs are more realistic because our survival depends on our neighbors survival. in more rural areas, the residents are more self sufficient and dont feel the need for as many programs because they can provide for themselves. in brooklyn or a new england town, it is probably a good idea to force everyone into paying for a fire department. in rural tennessee they decided that it is not economically feasible.


my original point was that the pauls would support an opt-in fire department, but would most likely opt into it themselves.

[Serpico1103]

my original point was that the pauls would support an opt-in fire department, but would most likely opt into it themselves.

Agreed, but I can not assume that everyone can intelligently weigh the cost and benefit of opting in, or will have the proper information to make an informed choice.

This guy, didn't have all the information. He thought they would put out the fire, regardless of whether you paid. He was wrong. That is the problem with letting people choose, they make poor choices against their own self-interest, let alone affecting others.

[sailor]

personally, i think paying for a fire department should be compulsory, if you're going to have one.

[Dirtbag]

I bet everyone pays their $75 next year.

[StanUpshaw]

And during Fire Prevention Week, too. :down:

[Zipgun]

The problem is that who would pay the monthly fee then... you just wait to see if you have a fire and then pay retrospectively.

People who don't want to die in a fire, or lose everything they own. And obviously this guy's neighbor, to start. I'm sure plenty of people in that town. And after this shit, more people sure as fuck gonna pony up the dough now. It's not like they'd be just billed $75 retroactively, I'm sure it would probably be into the thousands if not tens of thousands, but just put the fucking fire out and deal with the consequences later. I don't think anyone is going to have a good laugh on the town because they got away with having their house fire put out without forking over the $75.

I also can't imagine a person that is a firefighter that would see a child screaming for help in that burning house and sit on their ass and do nothing because the kids parents were fucking cheapskates.

[spoon]

Its the magic of the marketplace. privatize everything!

There is no debate, just libertarians trying to do damage control.
Maybe this will help the residents accept it as a requirement instead of as an option. The homeowner thought they would put out his fire, even if he didn't pay. Free-riding ass.

I just find certain aspects of government or public servants as being completely necessary. I understand ur rundown on area demographics needing to be taken into account Satcam, but to me this is an essential need and should be a part of the tax system in almost every area. Police, Fire are as essential to the overall public as paving the roads in my mind. If not for vol firefighters all around at this moment, most area would have little to no coverage. So people are fine doing clam bakes and charity outings to pay here, but not straight up with taxes to cover your family and neighborhoods? How do people get home insurance without the coverage in case of fire as well?

[Serpico1103]

People who don't want to die in a fire, or lose everything they own. And obviously this guy's neighbor, to start. I'm sure plenty of people in that town. And after this shit, more people sure as fuck gonna pony up the dough now. It's not like they'd be just billed $75 retroactively, I'm sure it would probably be into the thousands if not tens of thousands, but just put the fucking fire out and deal with the consequences later. I don't think anyone is going to have a good laugh on the town because they got away with having their house fire put out without forking over the $75.

I also can't imagine a person that is a firefighter that would see a child screaming for help in that burning house and sit on their ass and do nothing because the kids parents were fucking cheapskates.

Almost an analogy for the medical insurance industry.
I don't think there was a child killed in the fire.
Also, it was voluntary to pay the $75, why make it mandatory to put out the fire. I would have sympathy if it was thousands of dollars, but $75. He knew about, he choose to not purchase it, why should he benefit from it?
Who can say that he had tens of thousands to pay, what should they do if he couldn't? Put a lien on the house, then take the house from him?
Socialize everything!

[Melk]

personally, i think paying for a fire department should be compulsory, if you're going to have one.
I couldn't agree more. I can't even imagine the consequences of an opt-out/in policing fee.

While it completely sucks for the resident who didn't pay his $75.00 fee, the resident knew the risk of not paying the fire department or assumed that he would get leniency if a fire broke out.

Back in my home town, the fire station was paid for from the residents taxes, but many suburban fire departments would tele-market for donations from municipal residents. I don't know if the calls were scams or if the fire departments were destitute because their local residents were deadbeats, but... what a load of crap.

[PapaBear]

I don't know if the calls were scams or if the fire departments were destitute because their local residents were deadbeats, but... what a load of crap.
That sounds like the companies that do police fundraiser calls. They do give "a percentage" of the donations to the departments they say the represent, but they are actually a for profit business.

Around here, the fire departments are mostly volunteer. Each station has some professionals, but most are volunteers. They make the majority of their funds through fundraisers. Boot drives, bingo, auctions, pancake days, etc.

[StanUpshaw]

Don't forget the sexy fireman calendars!

[Zipgun]

I don't think there was a child killed in the fire.

I didn't say there was a child killed in the fire, but the point was if a fire broke out in a non $75 paying house and there was a child, or anyone for that matter in the house, you're saying it's ok for the fire dept. to ignore their screams and let them die because they didn't cough up some dough?

Also, it was voluntary to pay the $75, why make it mandatory to put out the fire.
You really don't see the redeeming value of putting a raging house fire out in the interest of public safety?

I would have sympathy if it was thousands of dollars, but $75. He knew about, he choose to not purchase it, why should he benefit from it?
It's not necessarily him that benefits, his shit is fucking torched, it's the community that benefits.

Who can say that he had tens of thousands to pay, what should they do if he couldn't? Put a lien on the house, then take the house from him?
Socialize everything!
Relax before you go all Morken. People work shit out.


Look, personally, I would move the fuck out of any town that had that kind of system or if that wasn't an option, I'd go to a town hall meeting and find out more about what it takes to organize a volunteer fire department. But to say that as a municipality you'd let a house fire burn uncontrolled, even with people inside, just because you didn't get $75 is fucking criminal. It's tant amount to extortion. What difference is that from the mob saying they want "protection" money?

[Dirtbag]

It's tant amount to extortion. What difference is that from the mob saying they want "protection" money?These firefighters didn't go over to this guy's house and start the fire.

[StanUpshaw]

tant amount?

[Melk]

I didn't say there was a child killed in the fire, but the point was if a fire broke out in a non $75 paying house and there was a child, or anyone for that matter in the house, you're saying it's ok for the fire dept. to ignore their screams and let them die because they didn't cough up some dough?
While I am not Scorpio, I do want to just reply to this point. It may be okay for the fire department to ignore the screams, raging flames and exploding gas lines from a legal stand point. The township/municipality should have a mandated process for refusing service to non-paying community members. If the process of refusing service was handled incorrectly, then they should be punished.

If the process of refusing service was handled correctly and the people of the community have issues the process, then I think they know what they need to do.

From an ethical standpoint, letting someone's house burn when you have a reasonable means to assist them is a total scumbag move. But that is the weird hypocrisy that our country repeats. We will fund free health care in third-world and war-torn countries, We will help typhoon and earthquake-damaged countries but we couldn't possibly provide the same assistance for people in Florida or Louisiana.

We Americans value non-Americans more than our neighbors.

[Serpico1103]

I didn't say there was a child killed in the fire, but the point was if a fire broke out in a non $75 paying house and there was a child, or anyone for that matter in the house, you're saying it's ok for the fire dept. to ignore their screams and let them die because they didn't cough up some dough?

You invented the child. The fire department probably would have saved a person, but I will stick to the actual event.

You really don't see the redeeming value of putting a raging house fire out in the interest of public safety?
A raging house fire in a rural area. The fire department ensured public safety.


It's not necessarily him that benefits, his shit is fucking torched, it's the community that benefits.
I understand that the community benefits, that's why these things should be mandatory. However, he knowingly took the risk. He can not be allowed to free ride.

Relax before you go all Morken. People work shit out.

And he will work out how to fix his house. Again, he made a decision, albeit a bad one.


Look, personally, I would move the fuck out of any town that had that kind of system or if that wasn't an option, I'd go to a town hall meeting and find out more about what it takes to organize a volunteer fire department. But to say that as a municipality you'd let a house fire burn uncontrolled, even with people inside, just because you didn't get $75 is fucking criminal. It's tant amount to extortion. What difference is that from the mob saying they want "protection" money?

It is not "protection", because when you paid protection money it was extortion. Here, the firefighters are providing a valuable service, as the homeowner learned.
He didn't need to move, just cough up the $75, which I will assume was the estimated cost of providing fire protection to the neighborhood. If you read the article, the neighborhood had no fire protection until recently, when the nearby city agreed to cover residents; residents who paid $75.

I agree the system is horrible. Should they have put out the fire? Maybe. Should the guy have paid the $75? Definitely.

Again, no one, but you, is saying the fire department should let people die. Are you donating all your disposable income to starving people worldwide? Or just letting those poor kids die hungry? There was no one in the house.

[PapaBear]

I think what some people are overlooking is that the county doesn't have a fire department. A nearby city does. That city funds it's own department, but requires a fee if outside districts wish to use it's services. I live in a county. I pay the city a higher price for their water than the city residents do. If I don't want to pay that price, I'm welcome to drill a well on my property. I know water service isn't on the same level as an emergency service, but it's the same concept.

[Serpico1103]

While I am not Scorpio, ...

We will fund free health care in third-world and war-torn countries, We will help typhoon and earthquake-damaged countries but we couldn't possibly provide the same assistance for people in Florida or Louisiana.

We Americans value non-Americans more than our neighbors.

Now, I am curious. What is your sign?

Louisianians and Floridians are not my neighbors.

[Serpico1103]

I think what some people are overlooking is that the county doesn't have a fire department. A nearby city does. That city funds it's own department, but requires a fee if outside districts wish to use it's services. I live in a county. I pay the city a higher price for their water than the city residents do. If I don't want to pay that price, I'm welcome to drill a well on my property. I know water service isn't on the same level as an emergency service, but it's the same concept.

But, if you were realllly thirsty, they would give you the water for free, right?

[PapaBear]

But, if you were realllly thirsty, they would give you the water for free, right?
Sure. If I went into the city to get it. But they wouldn't deliver it to me.

[StanUpshaw]

Can we stop referring to this as a "neighborhood"? It's a farm in the middle of nowhere.

Google Map (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=5187+Buddy+Jones+Rd,+South+Fulton,+TN&sll=36.490973,-88.842723&sspn=0.01249,0.01929&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=5187+Buddy+Jones+Rd,+South+Fulton,+Obion,+Te nnessee+38257&t=h&z=16)

[Serpico1103]

What neighborhood? Obion County, Tenn?

[PapaBear]

What neighborhood? Obion County, Tenn?
A county is not a neighborhood. A neighborhood doesn't have a governing body. A county does. That county's governing body provides no fire fighting services, and it's residents don't pay any taxes to the city that does offer the services (for a fee) to non city residents.

[Dudeman]

It isn't viable to have people pay after the fire. The firehouse and the firemen need to be maintained even if there isn't a fire for years.

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[Melk]

Now, I am curious. What is your sign?

Louisianians and Floridians are not my neighbors.
Oops. I meant to write Serpico.

I think that Louisianians and Floridians are more "my neighbors" than people in Haiti, Iraq, Kuwait or Afghanistan. While I agree with the idea that "their security ultimately equals American national security" on some distant level, we should regard the safety and security or people from our own country and the assistance in the rebuilding the communities of people in our own country more aggressively than in foreign countries.

The prevailing attitude is that people in foreign countries that can't get it together are unfortunate and the people in our country who cannot get it together are bums.

We really have to cut the crap. While I support the fire department not putting out that family's fire, I support them only because their system created a budgetary bureaucracy that left them with the obligation to pay or not receive protection. If I were in a community that required a fee to receive fire protection outside of my local taxes, you would be darn sure I'd pay it and be at the next city council meeting inquiring about how I could be just directly taxed for the service.

I get that the excuse "I was just following orders" is a BS way to excuse people from doing wrong unto other people, but we are living in a harsh recession with 10% unemployment. This could also be a situation of "the bystander effect" prevented people from helping the guy in need of fire prevention. I would like to believe I'd be human enough to stick up for the guy, but I wasn't there. The township government that permitted their fire department to have an opt-in policy or the fire marshals that created the policy of refusing service should be hung out to dry for their actions.

[spoon]

Wait, this is Tennessee? Just let the whole state burn...sorry dr. steve!

[PapaBear]

Wait, this is Tennessee? Just let the whole state burn...sorry dr. steve!
But... but.. What about Blowhard? :glurps:

[StanUpshaw]

I didn't say there was a child killed in the fire, but the point was if a fire broke out in a non $75 paying house and there was a child, or anyone for that matter in the house, you're saying it's ok for the fire dept. to ignore their screams and let them die because they didn't cough up some dough?

http://news.mywebpal.com/partners/955/public/news915625.html

Vice Mayor Charles Moody added, “It is in the ordinance that if it is a life threatening call, we will respond if the call is within a five mile radius, such as someone being inside in a wheel chair. And you don’t have to have paid the $75 fire service fee. That’s in our ordinance.”

[Dirtbag]

I have no problem with them not responding to his initial call. I do think it was kind of a dick move for them to respond to the neighbors call, come all the way out there, then stand and watch it burn.

[angrytruckingguy]

A county is not a neighborhood. A neighborhood doesn't have a governing body. A county does. That county's governing body provides no fire fighting services, and it's residents don't pay any taxes to the city that does offer the services (for a fee) to non city residents.

^^^^the only person who gets it. this story was reported inaccurately. he didnt live anywhere near their jurisdiction and they were never under any obligation to help. they offered a pay service for people outside the municipality if they wished to contribute. they should have put it out and sent a bill.

[Melk]

^^^^the only person who gets it. this story was reported inaccurately. he didnt live anywhere near their jurisdiction and they were never under any obligation to help. they offered a pay service for people outside the municipality if they wished to contribute. they should have put it out and sent a bill.
This was reported.

[Serpico1103]

A county is not a neighborhood. A neighborhood doesn't have a governing body. A county does. That county's governing body provides no fire fighting services, and it's residents don't pay any taxes to the city that does offer the services (for a fee) to non city residents.

I was joking.

[booster11373]

Maybe if the magicplace offered competing services we all know that competition is great and lowers prices. Im sure someone could have put out that fire for 50 bucks using cheaper labor

[StanUpshaw]

Maybe if the magicplace offered competing services we all know that competition is great and lowers prices. Im sure someone could have put out that fire for 50 bucks using cheaper labor

Can someone explain to me why this situation is being framed as some sort of free market failure? Because Keith Olberman told you so?

[Jujubees2]

Oh, it gets better...

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/10/05/national/main6929591.shtml (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/10/05/national/main6929591.shtml)

Police say Cranick's son was so angry he later went to the fire house and punched the chief.

"He just cold-cocked him," Police Chief Andy Crocker said, based on witness statements.

[booster11373]

Can someone explain to me why this situation is being framed as some sort of free market failure? Because Keith Olberman told you so?

Why be wedded to the old ways of doing business? I dont get my news from the Lame stream media. I buy gold and lots of it.

The free market solves all problems just look at the derivatives market lasire faire at its finest

[StanUpshaw]

Again, what does any of that have to do with this story?

[booster11373]

Again, what does any of that have to do with this story?

Free market failure? that kind of negative thinking can effect the magicplace!

Free market success! the man rolled the bones and lost. Its liberal secular socialist thinking that says he should have got a free pass.

[StanUpshaw]

Believe me when I say...the sarcasm is priceless. But you're not making a whole lot of sense. How is this issue tied to any sort of Ron Paul libertarian dogma?

[Dudeman]

Can someone explain to me why this situation is being framed as some sort of free market failure? Because Keith Olberman told you so?

sorry but people on the left dont watch msnbc the way people on the right follow beck/palin/o'riley/ hannity

[StanUpshaw]

My accusation was not without reason. When I tried to find the news story on YouTube, the first five clips I clicked were from the same Olberman segment (beginning, "a glimpse into the future of the Tea Party's vision for America").

It just seems a little odd that this story becomes a thread topic, when a year or so ago the exact scenario played out in the rural area surrounding South Fulton. That time there was no Olberman...and no thread.

[foodcourtdruide]

Believe me when I say...the sarcasm is priceless. But you're not making a whole lot of sense. How is this issue tied to any sort of Ron Paul libertarian dogma?

Because this story highlights the implausibility of libertarianism in a civilized society.

[StanUpshaw]

Because this story highlights the implausibility of libertarianism in a civilized society.

I suppose you could look at like that.

You could also argue that the culture of government reliance has eroded personal responsibility to such a point that a man can not only flaunt any common sense in regard to fire safety, but also flaunt any responsibility to pay into the system he expects to benefit from. Clearly this is a failure of the social movement.

Or maybe this guy is a shithead who tried to beat the system and he got burned.

[foodcourtdruide]

I suppose you could look at like that.

You could also argue that the culture of government reliance has eroded personal responsibility to such a point that a man can not only flaunt any common sense in regard to fire safety, but also flaunt any responsibility to pay into the system he expects to benefit from. Clearly this is a failure of the social movement.

Or maybe this guy is a shithead who tried to beat the system and he got burned.

While this may be true, it's also irrelevant. We could speak as much as we want about personal responsibility, but in the end we are not going to let our fellow citizens die in the gutter because they've made foolish decisions and can't afford health care. Libertarians are idealists. Libertarianism is an incomplete thought.

[angrymissy]

My accusation was not without reason. When I tried to find the news story on YouTube, the first five clips I clicked were from the same Olberman segment (beginning, "a glimpse into the future of the Tea Party's vision for America").

It just seems a little odd that this story becomes a thread topic, when a year or so ago the exact scenario played out in the rural area surrounding South Fulton. That time there was no Olberman...and no thread.

Because it was a Yahoo news headline. I'm a filthy, flaming liberal, and I don't watch Olbermann. I might catch it if I'm flipping through the channels, or watch a clip online, but I don't really care for the guy. If anything, I'll watch Maddow... but again, that's me flipping through the channels. I prefer to read instead.

Back to the topic, I don't think basic services like police, fire, EMS, should be denied to anyone in this day and age. At what point do they determine that someone's life is in danger at the fire and respond? What if someone is inside passed out, and a neighbor calls in the fire, not knowing someone is inside, and they don't respond because the person didn't pay their $75? There are just too many variables for disaster. $75 might not seem like a lot to most people, but there are a lot of people (especially the elderly), where that $75 could mean the difference between eating or not one month.

Not to mention that they are endangering the rest of the neighborhood by standing there and watching a fire spread and burn. It just doesn't make sense to me. I know a lot of firefighters, and I just couldn't see any of them idly stand by and watch a house burn, while they have the means to fix the situation right there. I just think it's inhumane.

[sailor]

Was anyone in the story a libertarian?

And people keep saying $75 a month, but it's that much per year.

[angrymissy]

Oh, Yahoo News, your comments are almost as good as the ones on Fox.

Have any of you leftist loons that think that this free loader should have gotten help any way stop to think that $75 a year is like giving up one latte a month. I bet this guy smokes plays the lottery and has no problem finding the money to pay for those vices on his own. This just kills me that you have no problem spending other peoples money. BTW this is a perfect example of what is wrong with the govs new health care bill " I thought that I would get covered even if I didnt pay" and the rest of us that do pay are let to foot the bill.

[StanUpshaw]

Was anyone in the story a libertarian?

Not as far as I can tell. That doesn't seem to stop anyone from injecting whatever they feel like into the story. Like this "neighborhood" concept that keeps popping up.

[angrymissy]

Was anyone in the story a libertarian?

And people keep saying $75 a month, but it's that much per year.

I understand it's that much one year, but shelling out that $75 one month to pay for the year can be a very difficult thing to do for people living on a fixed income.

It's just plain heartless and un-American to stand there and watch someone's house burn.

[angrymissy]

Not as far as I can tell. That doesn't seem to stop anyone from injecting whatever they feel like into the story. Like this "neighborhood" concept that keeps popping up.

C'mon, you obviously know why the discussion has turned to Libertarian ideals. This is a prime example of it. Of course people are going to discuss it.

[booster11373]

Just think of the entrapenurial spirit this guy will have now that his house burned to the ground

[Earlshog]

Oh, Yahoo News, your comments are almost as good as the ones on Fox.



Quote:
Have any of you leftist loons that think that this free loader should have gotten help any way stop to think that $75 a year is like giving up one latte a month. I bet this guy smokes plays the lottery and has no problem finding the money to pay for those vices on his own. This just kills me that you have no problem spending other peoples money. BTW this is a perfect example of what is wrong with the govs new health care bill " I thought that I would get covered even if I didnt pay" and the rest of us that do pay are let to foot the bill.

__________________

Hell yeah, I bet this good for nothing freeloader is on welfare, using obamacare, and food stamps! The fire probably started by his deadbeat ass, smoking crack in his house!

See what you get by voting for a lefty muslim socialist. The U.S. is in big trouble!

[booster11373]

Liberals want to outlaw fire

[Zorro]

I understand it's that much one year, but shelling out that $75 one month to pay for the year can be a very difficult thing to do for people living on a fixed income.

It's just plain heartless and un-American to stand there and watch someone's house burn.

You can add all the what ifs you want, but none of them apply in this situation.

[Zorro]

Quote:
Have any of you leftist loons that think that this free loader should have gotten help any way stop to think that $75 a year is like giving up one latte a month. I bet this guy smokes plays the lottery and has no problem finding the money to pay for those vices on his own. This just kills me that you have no problem spending other peoples money. BTW this is a perfect example of what is wrong with the govs new health care bill " I thought that I would get covered even if I didnt pay" and the rest of us that do pay are let to foot the bill.

__________________

Hell yeah, I bet this good for nothing freeloader is on welfare, using obamacare, and food stamps! The fire probably started by his deadbeat ass, smoking crack in his house!

See what you get by voting for a lefty muslim socialist. The U.S. is in big trouble!



Another one adding crap that doesn't exist. This thread is like the game "telephone" by the time we get to the end no one will even know there was a fire in the first place.

[booster11373]

Lame stream media
Real America
Buy gold
Things were better before
Socialism!!

[angrymissy]

You can add all the what ifs you want, but none of them apply in this situation.

I'm not speaking of this particular situation, I'm speaking about this practice in general.

Were the financial details of the man shared? He lived in a trailer, I doubt he was rolling in cash. It said he offered to pay them for putting out the fire, but who knows if he even had the money to do that.

My point is, people are acting like $75 is no big deal, to most people it isn't, but there are plenty of people that simply can't afford it, so, being poor means you get no fire protection. I think that's horseshit in this day and age.

[angrymissy]

Lame stream media
Real America
Buy gold
Things were better before
Socialism!!

Don't forget HOMOSEXUAL AGENDA

[Earlshog]

Another one adding crap that doesn't exist. This thread is like the game "telephone" by the time we get to the end no one will even know there was a fire in the first place.

Right cause we've never seen comments like those after an article on the intraweb

[angrymissy]

Another one adding crap that doesn't exist. This thread is like the game "telephone" by the time we get to the end no one will even know there was a fire in the first place.

Do you think he is being serious?

You yourself made a comment along the lines of what he was saying.

Wouldn't pay the $75.00, but I'll bet he had the best cable package.

Isn't that adding crap that doesn't exist?

[Earlshog]

Lame stream media
Real America
Buy gold
Things were better before
Socialism!!

New York times = pinko commie rag

[booster11373]

Lame stream media
Real America
Buy gold
Things were better before
Socialism!!

[Earlshog]

Lame stream media
Real America
Buy gold
Things were better before
Socialism!!

Post whore


I mean obamafascist!

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Lame stream media
Real America
Buy gold
Things were better before
Socialism!!

You forgot "TAKE OUR COUNTRY BACK"

[sailor]

Can't wait to see the bannings to follow now that the precedent has been set.

[Earlshog]

You forgot "TAKE OUR COUNTRY BACK"

Exactly!!! We need a referendum on spending!

[Zorro]

Do you think he is being serious?

You yourself made a comment along the lines of what he was saying.



Isn't that adding crap that doesn't exist?

Oh that was back when I thought it was a fun thread.

Srsly...I saw the the quote about some lefty crap and thought it was a quote from EH...

[CountryBob]

I think that this was handled incorrectly. The fire dept should have some clause built in that would let the homeowner pay at time of service if requested. Hell, even for 2 or 3 times the yearly amount would make sense to me.

I think that a person’s home is almost as sacred of a value as their health - and we still treat people that didn’t pay or can’t pay for health insurance.

[Dudeman]

I think that this was handled incorrectly. The fire dept should have some clause built in that would let the homeowner pay at time of service if requested. Hell, even for 2 or 3 times the yearly amount would make sense to me.

I think that a person’s home is almost as sacred of a value as their health - and we still treat people that didn’t pay or can’t pay for health insurance.

I do think, if possible, there should have been a way for the house owner to pay for the service when his house caught fire. But the price would have to be very high- not just $75. I mean thousands. Everyone paying some yearly price for the service doesn't just pay for putting out fires; it pays for the constant maintance of the department. Most of the people paying the yearly cost will never need the fire dept services. Just having a department getting paid only when a fire occurs isn't viable.

[Furtherman]

I don't care to get into any politics with this terrible story, but if you're a firefighter, and you're there with a hose and just standing around to see if the fire might jump to someone else's property and meanwhile you're just waiting as the other person's place burns?

That's just humanly cruel. I don't care if your under orders. The firemen should have helped that poor guy out, then settle whatever differences later.

[Dudeman]

I don't care to get into any politics with this terrible story, but if you're a firefighter, and you're there with a hose and just standing around to see if the fire might jump to someone else's property and meanwhile you're just waiting as the other person's place burns?

That's just humanly cruel. I don't care if your under orders. The firemen should have helped that poor guy out, then settle whatever differences later.

There must have been many discussions among the firemen preemtively about what they would do if called to a fire by someone who didn't want to pay.

[Jujubees2]

I don't care to get into any politics with this terrible story, but if you're a firefighter, and you're there with a hose and just standing around to see if the fire might jump to someone else's property and meanwhile you're just waiting as the other person's place burns?

That's just humanly cruel. I don't care if your under orders. The firemen should have helped that poor guy out, then settle whatever differences later.

Don't some stats have laws where if a person sees another in peril and said person has the ability to help, they can be held liable if they do not help? I think that was the way Seinfeld ended.

[Furtherman]

There must have been many discussions among the firemen preemtively about what they would do if called to a fire by someone who didn't want to pay.

I'm sure there was, and this is also the plot of some bad movie about a lone hero rogue fireman who wouldn't "play by the rules", but still, that's fuckin' cruel.

[Earlshog]

I'm sure there was, and this is also the plot of some bad movie about a lone hero rogue fireman who wouldn't "play by the rules", but still, that's fuckin' cruel.

Cobra II

Marion Cobretti is back, but this time as a fireman! A fireman that walks around with a match in his mouth...

Alright I've done my part, Paul-O you take it from here...

[SatCam]

I'm not speaking of this particular situation, I'm speaking about this practice in general.

Were the financial details of the man shared? He lived in a trailer, I doubt he was rolling in cash. It said he offered to pay them for putting out the fire, but who knows if he even had the money to do that.

My point is, people are acting like $75 is no big deal, to most people it isn't, but there are plenty of people that simply can't afford it, so, being poor means you get no fire protection. I think that's horseshit in this day and age.

if he wanted fire protection, he could have moved to the city... or the suburbs... or the northeast... or just have paid the $75 like his neighbor. he chose to live where he lives, and i imagine the low cost of living out of a doublewide in the middle of bumfucksville, tenn is what attracted him to the place.

we are not talking about the loss of life here, we are talking about the protection of property. and like i said earlier not paying for fire protection is like choosing to not pay for car insurance, homeowners insurance, AAA, etc. as it was stated earlier in the thread if life was in danger the fire department DOES respond....

[Furtherman]

if he wanted fire protection, he could have moved to the city... or the suburbs... or the northeast... or just have paid the $75 like his neighbor. he chose to live where he lives, and i imagine the low cost of living out of a doublewide in the middle of bumfucksville, tenn is what attracted him to the place.

we are not talking about the loss of life here, we are talking about the protection of property. and like i said earlier not paying for fire protection is like choosing to not pay for car insurance, homeowners insurance, AAA, etc. as it was stated earlier in the thread if life was in danger the fire department DOES respond....

Right, because when you grow up in rural Tennessee, you have all the choices available to you: where to live, kind of job you want and insurance for anything.

:blink:

[SatCam]

Right, because when you grow up in rural Tennessee, you have all the choices available to you: where to live, kind of job you want and insurance for anything.

:blink:

well atleast we got that argument out of the way

[Dudeman]

I don't care to get into any politics with this terrible story, but if you're a firefighter, and you're there with a hose and just standing around to see if the fire might jump to someone else's property and meanwhile you're just waiting as the other person's place burns?

That's just humanly cruel. I don't care if your under orders. The firemen should have helped that poor guy out, then settle whatever differences later.

What if one of the firemen got injured? This guy wasn't willing to preemptively pay for the fireman's medical insurance. If everyone waited until their house caught on fire before paying, I don't think firemen would have insurance, would they?

[Furtherman]

What if one of the firemen got injured? This guy wasn't willing to preemptively pay for the fireman's medical insurance. If everyone waited until their house caught on fire before paying, I don't think firemen would have insurance, would they?

I get the whole, "he didn't pay so we're not going out there" rule. My problem is that they were right there, with the equipment, and still his house burned down. To stand there and allow that to happen is just horrible.

[Zorro]

Right, because when you grow up in rural Tennessee, you have all the choices available to you: where to live, kind of job you want and insurance for anything.

:blink:

From the story (MSNBC.com) I read he did have homeowners insurance so, his loss is emotional financially he'll be ok.

on another note. I saw it mentioned here and I'm not sure why they don't do it in TN, but in the mid 80's I lived in Santa Rosa County Florida (panhandle) and the deal was you paid the fire department an annual fee and they would respond without charge. If you did not pay the fee they would respond, but charge you some insanely expensive hourly fee plus pump charges.

[Dudeman]

I get the whole, "he didn't pay so we're not going out there" rule. My problem is that they were right there, with the equipment, and still his house burned down. To stand there and allow that to happen is just horrible.

I get that too. And as the above poster alluded too, if they have some exorbitant fee that the homeowner knows they will get if the fire dept shows up, thats maybe ok.

I just don't see how that long term financially possible. Who is going to pay for the firemen's insurance??? Why should the firemen put their life on the line for someone not willing to pay for their services?

[spoon]

From the story (MSNBC.com) I read he did have homeowners insurance so, his loss is emotional financially he'll be ok.

on another note. I saw it mentioned here and I'm not sure why they don't do it in TN, but in the mid 80's I lived in Santa Rosa County Florida (panhandle) and the deal was you paid the fire department an annual fee and they would respond without charge. If you did not pay the fee they would respond, but charge you some insanely expensive hourly fee plus pump charges.

There's your answer. They either get a good sum up front or those taking the risk end up paying out the ass for it. I can see arson going up in those situations when they need some funds so they don't have to do more clam bakes or plain money drives with that thermometer at 25% in front of churches I see in every little shit town.

[Bob Impact]

Wait, neither one of the people in the thread title are libertarian.

This guy didn't pay the price that was required for service, he did not get the service. He knew this was the price he would pay if he had a fire and he paid it. This is a non-story.

That said basic services (fire, police, military, courts, infrastructure) are one of the few things I think should be taxed and paid for.

[spoon]

Wait, neither one of the people in the thread title are libertarian.

This guy didn't pay the price that was required for service, he did not get the service. He knew this was the price he would pay if he had a fire and he paid it. This is a non-story.

That said basic services (fire, police, military, courts, infrastructure) are one of the few things I think should be taxed and paid for.

basic cable?

[Dudeman]

Wait, neither one of the people in the thread title are libertarian.

This guy didn't pay the price that was required for service, he did not get the service. He knew this was the price he would pay if he had a fire and he paid it. This is a non-story.

That said basic services (fire, police, military, courts, infrastructure) are one of the few things I think should be taxed and paid for.

what about the following services:
-overseeing companies that control gas lines so the companies don't avoid spending the money to maintain the lines and people die (see San Bruno fire)
-overseeing mine companies so they dont avoid avoid spending the money to maintain the shafts and people die (see west virginia mine disaster)
-overseeing companies that drill in the gulf.... (see gulf)
-katrina and katrina relief...
-enron....

Of course all of these disasters still happened. But the question here isnt whether the governement agencies are doing there job (underfunded? or incompetent?). The question is simply whether those should be services provided by the government, and therefore taxed and paid for.

[Zipgun]

I don't care to get into any politics with this terrible story, but if you're a firefighter, and you're there with a hose and just standing around to see if the fire might jump to someone else's property and meanwhile you're just waiting as the other person's place burns?

That's just humanly cruel. I don't care if your under orders. The firemen should have helped that poor guy out, then settle whatever differences later.

Somehow you posted the same thought I did yet no one jumped on you for it. Strange. I guess the mod fear has it's priviledges.

What the fuck ever happened to being a human in this country without having to get fucking paid first just to do the right thing? It's not a "liberal" point of view, it's called being a person.

[Bob Impact]

basic cable?
Of course, what are we, animals?

what about the following services:
-overseeing companies that control gas lines so the companies don't avoid spending the money to maintain the lines and people die (see San Bruno fire)
-overseeing mine companies so they dont avoid avoid spending the money to maintain the shafts and people die (see west virginia mine disaster)
-overseeing companies that drill in the gulf.... (see gulf)
-katrina and katrina relief...
-enron....

Of course all of these disasters still happened. But the question here isnt whether the governement agencies are doing there job (underfunded? or incompetent?). The question is simply whether those should be services provided by the government, and therefore taxed and paid for.
In order
No
No
No
Yes, No
No

[spoon]

what about the following services:
-overseeing companies that control gas lines so the companies don't avoid spending the money to maintain the lines and people die (see San Bruno fire)
-overseeing mine companies so they dont avoid avoid spending the money to maintain the shafts and people die (see west virginia mine disaster)
-overseeing companies that drill in the gulf.... (see gulf)
-katrina and katrina relief...
-enron....

Of course all of these disasters still happened. But the question here isnt whether the governement agencies are doing there job (underfunded? or incompetent?). The question is simply whether those should be services provided by the government, and therefore taxed and paid for.

Yes they should and it's a much needed process to keep companies honest and on top of worker safety. It's clearly needed regulation, but it has been off of late bc the very people that are supposed to regulate those industries have been hand picked a lot by said industry and are completely tied to their needs, not safety and the rules/reg needed.

[spoon]

The cost in money and life of any of those disasters easily outweighs the cost to police these industries to avoid them. The fines given can and usually do cover the cost if managed correctly.

[kdubya]

What kind of fire fighter can just sit and watch a home burn. This type of model for safety based services is crazy.

[Dudeman]

What kind of fire fighter can just sit and watch a home burn. This type of model for safety based services is crazy.

but how can they risk their lives if people aren't willing to pay for their salary, equipment, or medical and life insurance?

[angrymissy]

Apparantley there were two dogs inside, that were allowed to burn to death over $75.

[StanUpshaw]

From what I hear, he was nearly finished formulating an HIV vaccine, but now it's gone, all for $75.

[kdubya]

but how can they risk their lives if people aren't willing to pay for their salary, equipment, or medical and life insurance?

That is what taxes are for. The system of using taxes to pay for fire, police, etc... seems to have worked well for over a 100 years why change it now.

i don't have a problem with firefighters being paid, but this is just such bull shit to make it a pay for service set up.

Tea party ass holes and Anthony Cummia can bitch and moan about taxes being unfair but that is how our society works.

[PapaBear]

That is what taxes are for. The system of using taxes to pay for fire, police, etc... seems to have worked well for over a 100 years why change it now.

i don't have a problem with firefighters being paid, but this is just such bull shit to make it a pay for service set up.

Tea party ass holes and Anthony Cummia can bitch and moan about taxes being unfair but that is how our society works.
As I've said before, this guy's taxes didn't go to the fire department at all. He lived outside the city, and his county offers no fire services. This is why they charge a fee.

[spoon]

As I've said before, this guy's taxes didn't go to the fire department at all. He lived outside the city, and his county offers no fire services. This is why they charge a fee.

Perhaps he's saying they should have services based on taxes in that county.

[PapaBear]

Perhaps he's saying they should have services based on taxes in that county.
I'm guessing that county probably doesn't have a large enough tax base to support that. I don't know what their population is. I'm just pointing out why there is a fee.

[sailor]

As I've said before, this guy's taxes didn't go to the fire department at all. He lived outside the city, and his county offers no fire services. This is why they charge a fee.

i fear the backlash from this will cause this for-pay system to be eliminated, resulting in zero coverage for that whole county once again.

[booster11373]

A few years ago the place I live had a bond issue that would provide money for school construction on the ballot, It failed. People now complain about school overcrowding. I laugh.

[CountryBob]

Once I was part of a group that left a campfire burning overnight and it caught the woods on fire and burnt up 3 acres of private property (out in the country with no fire department service). The closest town came and helped put out the fire with help from a bulldozer as well. All of us that were responsible had to split $8,500 that was charged for the help.

Point being is that they didnt let the fire burn down houses - but sent a bill.

[Dudeman]

Once I was part of a group that left a campfire burning overnight and it caught the woods on fire and burnt up 3 acres of private property (out in the country with no fire department service). The closest town came and helped put out the fire with help from a bulldozer as well. All of us that were responsible had to split $8,500 that was charged for the help.

Point being is that they didnt let the fire burn down houses - but sent a bill.

apples and oranges. this guy just had to pay $75 to help support the salary, insurance, and equipment for people that could possibly risk their lives to save them or their house. they chose not to pay that. you and your group were not in a position of ever having refused to pay.

[Zorro]

A few years ago the place I live had a bond issue that would provide money for school construction on the ballot, It failed. People now complain about school overcrowding. I laugh.

Nothing pisses me off more than old people who don't want to pay property taxes because they no longer have kids in school.

[Jujubees2]

How about people who owe back taxes? Should the fire department and the police department refuse service to them since they haven't paid taxes? Should the 911 operator check on a person's tax status before calling the authorities?

[sailor]

How about people who owe back taxes? Should the fire department and the police department refuse service to them since they haven't paid taxes? Should the 911 operator check on a person's tax status before calling the authorities?

Obviously.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Nothing pisses me off more than old people who don't want to pay property taxes because they no longer have kids in school.

Maybe its because all those kids won't get off their lawn :lol:

[Syd]

Can I opt not to pay for the military? I don't need it, I don't use them and they account for roughly 50% of my income taxes.

[Willmore]

Can I opt not to pay for the military? I don't need it, I don't use them and they account for roughly 50% of my income taxes.

Sure. Move to Afghanistan. Have the stupid Americans pay for your military.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Id love to opt out having my taxes redistributed to illegal aliens and their anchor babies.

I can move to Guadalajara and make the stupid Mexicans pay for my entitlements...


Oh wait, Illegal aliens there actually get dealt with in Mexico