Grown-ups Tackle The Deficit/Debt Problem

[Recyclerz]

The Co-Chairs of Obama's National Commission on Fiscal Responsibility and Reform, Alan Simpson and Erskine Bowles, start the truth-telling on what needs to be done to get the Federal Government's balance sheet back in line:


Start here (http://www.fiscalcommission.gov/news/cochairs-proposal)


Just gave it a quick review but it seems like a pretty good place to start the discussion.

Can't wait to hear what the Tea Partier's and their queen, Lady Sarah, have to say about this.

[Pitdoc]

..how taxes for both regular people AND corporate could be cut . But then it has some good budget cuts too.Still, it'll never get through Congress. Repubs will balk at the Defense cuts and the cutting of all loopholes( which is how most rich people don't pay that many taxes). Dems will balk at cuts in Medicare & Soc Sec . I can speak to one of those things.The entire Medicine lobby will spend BILLIONS in graft to keep their cuts from coming. First ,every doctor will threaten to cut off EVERYBODY on Medicare if they enact the cuts they want , and then they have everybody above 55 screaming for whoever cut it. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing, but it will happen

[WRESTLINGFAN]

They can start out by slashing the defense budget. Do we need the Dept of Homeland security, Dept of Education, Agriculture and Energy? Those useless bureaucracies are infested with redundant paper pushers and bean counters

[Devo37]

social security, government pensions, and other entitlements will eventually flat-out bankrupt the US. it's an unsustainable system that will eventually come crashing down all around us. no amount of taxes can possibly fix it.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

social security, government pensions, and other entitlements will eventually flat-out bankrupt the US. it's an unsustainable system that will eventually come crashing down all around us. no amount of taxes can possibly fix it.



The feds have no business being in the medical and retirement field. These waste of taxpayer dollars have caused unintended consequences. SS is the biggest ponzi scheme ever created. Medicare caused unintended consequences as they didnt expect people to live 20-30 years past 65 when it was created.

[Barnaby Jones]

They can start out by slashing the defense budget. Do we need the Dept of Homeland security, Dept of Education, Agriculture and Energy? Those useless bureaucracies are infested with redundant paper pushers and bean counters

Yes, yes and yes! Do you expect all of those to exist individually at the state level? OK, great! How is that being paid for? How are each state's policies effecting the surrounding states and how is that worked out?

Department of Homeland security, however, is a joke!

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Yes, yes and yes! Do you expect all of those to exist individually at the state level? OK, great! How is that being paid for? How are each state's policies effecting the surrounding states and how is that worked out?

Department of Homeland security, however, is a joke!

Why should I in CT subsidize a school in CA? The states and local gov'ts already collect revenue in property taxes. The dept of Ed was created 30 years ago and ever since education has become a joke. Teachers have become babysitters. No wonder why the Chinese and Indians are kicking our asses in math and science. Money is just thrown at cities with the highest dropout rates. For example Newark NJ spends 22K per student and more than half do not graduate.

Im sick of farm subsidies for ethanol and corporate welfare to ADM corp. The dept of Energy is another waste of resources started by Carter. Do they produce any energy? of course not and as a result more redundancy with spinoff bureaucracies like Minerals Mgt Svc

[Dude!]

i think it is an honest
and brilliant plan

let's do it

[Recyclerz]

The feds have no business being in the medical and retirement field. These waste of taxpayer dollars have caused unintended consequences. SS is the biggest ponzi scheme ever created. Medicare caused unintended consequences as they didnt expect people to live 20-30 years past 65 when it was created.

I think people are living longer because they generally have access to affordable medical care. I don't think you can view this as a negative development unless you hate your Grandma or if you have elevated laissez faire economics to a theology.

I do agree with you that it is not sustainable in its current form though.

[foodcourtdruide]

The feds have no business being in the medical and retirement field. These waste of taxpayer dollars have caused unintended consequences. SS is the biggest ponzi scheme ever created. Medicare caused unintended consequences as they didnt expect people to live 20-30 years past 65 when it was created.

Isn't most of constitution based on a world that no longer exists?

[Barnaby Jones]

Why should I in CT subsidize a school in CA? The states and local gov'ts already collect revenue in property taxes. The dept of Ed was created 30 years ago and ever since education has become a joke. Teachers have become babysitters. No wonder why the Chinese and Indians are kicking our asses in math and science. Money is just thrown at cities with the highest dropout rates. For example Newark NJ spends 22K per student and more than half do not graduate.

Im sick of farm subsidies for ethanol and corporate welfare to ADM corp. The dept of Energy is another waste of resources started by Carter. Do they produce any energy? of course not and as a result more redundancy with spinoff bureaucracies like Minerals Mgt Svc

I'm sorry, but I don't know how you can expect to be taken seriously when you want things like education, agriculture and energy split across 50 different governments when so many of the states are interconnected! Your expectations are ridiculous and have little basis in reality unless you expect the states to be able to operate like fiefdoms!

[foodcourtdruide]

I'm sorry, but I don't know how you can expect to be taken seriously when you want things like education, agriculture and energy split across 50 different governments when so many of the states are interconnected! Your expectations are ridiculous and have little basis in reality unless you expect the states to be able to operate like fiefdoms!

I agree. I think the department of education needs a complete overhaul, as we are simply not taken advantage of the technology available to us. Do we even need schools? The way we educate children should be completely overhauled, and it should be done at the federal level.

[Pitdoc]

The feds have no business being in the medical and retirement field. These waste of taxpayer dollars have caused unintended consequences. SS is the biggest ponzi scheme ever created. Medicare caused unintended consequences as they didnt expect people to live 20-30 years past 65 when it was created.

Actually , Social Security is pretty much solvent until 37, when it has problems .With a few tweaks( higher premiums, raising retirement ages), it can remain untouched, as LONG as the government doesn't raid it to pay for everything else, like its been doing for 20 yrs
Medicare is a different story, but unfortunately, those old people DO vote , and,like elephants, they remember who cut "their" entitlement so good luck to anyone who cuts it.Democrat OR Republican

[Barnaby Jones]

I agree. I think the department of education needs a complete overhaul, as we are simply not taken advantage of the technology available to us. Do we even need schools? The way we educate children should be completely overhauled, and it should be done at the federal level.

I'm all for reform of our educational system, but guys like WF suggesting slash and burn is just bonkers! Our education system desperately needs reform, and shattering it at the federal level will just increase the disparity and put America further behind the educational curve!

[foodcourtdruide]

I'm all for reform of our educational system, but guys like WF suggesting slash and burn is just bonkers! Our education system desperately needs reform, and shattering it at the federal level will just increase the disparity and put America further behind the educational curve!

I think WF tends to think there are simple solutions to extremely complex problems.

[Barnaby Jones]

I think WF tends to think there are simple solutions to extremely complex problems.

He claims he wants to cut down on waste, but he wants giant issues like agriculture, education and energy split across all 50 states! He goes on and on about the money that illegals are costing the country, but then he want's to deploy the military indefinitely to completely seal off the borders! He wants to replace waste with more waste!

[foodcourtdruide]

He claims he wants to cut down on waste, but he wants giant issues like agriculture, education and energy split across all 50 states! He goes on and on about the money that illegals are costing the country, but then he want's to deploy the military indefinitely to completely seal off the borders! He wants to replace waste with more waste!

I think it's because he's not really honest with himself about his agenda. His opinion on illegals is more about a culture war than anything economic.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I think it's because he's not really honest with himself about his agenda. His opinion on illegals is more about a culture war than anything economic.

Look how much it is costing us to have troops deployed all over the world, Not just Iraq and Afghanistan. The defense budget could be slashed drastically in regards to unnecessary weapons systems, the cost of deployments. However, not one dime should be cut for long term care of returning vets ie PTSD.

I know I sound archaic for bringing up the constitution but article 4 section 4 mandates that the Federal gov't protect the states from invasion. Granted these people arent coming over rolling in tanks but it is still an invasion.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I'm sorry, but I don't know how you can expect to be taken seriously when you want things like education, agriculture and energy split across 50 different governments when so many of the states are interconnected! Your expectations are ridiculous and have little basis in reality unless you expect the states to be able to operate like fiefdoms!

BECAUSE IT ENCOURAGES COMPETITION BTWN THE 50 STATES Things were relatively ok before the dept of education. All it does is collect money and doles it out again. The states on a local level could do a much better job than the feds.

I know we are stuck with these bureaucracies but it should not be the role of the feds. They have 18 things that they can do like issuing currency, estabishing post offices, maintaining an Army, things like that. All other powers are left to the states

[foodcourtdruide]

Look how much it is costing us to have troops deployed all over the world, Not just Iraq and Afghanistan. The defense budget could be slashed drastically in regards to unnecessary weapons systems, the cost of deployments. However, not one dime should be cut for long term care of returning vets ie PTSD.

I know I sound archaic for bringing up the constitution but article 4 section 4 mandates that the Federal gov't protect the states from invasion. Granted these people arent coming over rolling in tanks but it is still an invasion.

I don't understand what your first paragraph had to do with what I said.

Yes, you seeing this as an "invasion" is exactly why I said you see this more as a culture war.

[foodcourtdruide]

BECAUSE IT ENCOURAGES COMPETITION BTWN THE 50 STATES Things were relatively ok before the dept of education.

Didn't the Dept of Education start in the 1800's? lol

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I don't understand what your first paragraph had to do with what I said.

Yes, you seeing this as an "invasion" is exactly why I said you see this more as a culture war.

Im saying that it would cost a hell of a lot less to have our military on the border instead of 8000 miles away.


Its an invasion because they are coming here slipping thru the cracks and killing the host which are the taxpayers subsidizing them and their anchor babies with tons of entitlements in which they do not deserve.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Didn't the Dept of Education start in the 1800's? lol

You want to think of the constitution as some archaic outdated piece of paper. So does mean that there shouldn't be 3 branches of gov't of checks and balances? Hell lets make the presidents powers dictatorial.

[foodcourtdruide]

Im saying that it would cost a hell of a lot less to have our military on the border instead of 8000 miles away.

Yes, and you know what would cost less? Not having troops 8000 miles away OR on the border. If you were concerned about the economy that's what your stance would be.


Its an invasion because they are coming here slipping thru the cracks and killing the host which are the taxpayers subsidizing them and their anchor babies with tons of entitlements in which they do not deserve.

It is debatable that they are costing the taxpayer more money than they are generating and YOUR plan is 100% certainly more expensive to the taxpayer than allowing them to stay here. That means what is in the best interest of the taxpayer is not your real concern.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Didn't the Dept of Education start in the 1800's? lol

If the Dept of Ed. was disbanded, do you really think the literacy level in the US would drop down to 10% ?

[Barnaby Jones]

Look how much it is costing us to have troops deployed all over the world, Not just Iraq and Afghanistan. The defense budget could be slashed drastically in regards to unnecessary weapons systems, the cost of deployments. However, not one dime should be cut for long term care of returning vets ie PTSD.

I know I sound archaic for bringing up the constitution but article 4 section 4 mandates that the Federal gov't protect the states from invasion. Granted these people arent coming over rolling in tanks but it is still an invasion.

So you want to slash the defense budget...but you want the military to lock down all of our borders? How does that work????!?!!?!!?

[foodcourtdruide]

If the Dept of Ed. was disbanded, do you really think the literacy level in the US would drop down to 10% ?

Did you see my above post about completely revamping the education system in this country? I said there shouldn't even be schools for crying out loud!

[Barnaby Jones]

Yes, and you know what would cost less? Not having troops 8000 miles away OR on the border. If you were concerned about the economy that's what your stance would be.



It is debatable that they are costing the taxpayer more money than they are generating and YOUR plan is 100% certainly more expensive to the taxpayer than allowing them to stay here. That means what is in the best interest of the taxpayer is not your real concern.

In all of his illegal immigration ranting he has not once been able to provide a single source that shows that the cost of illegals outweighs what the country "makes" off of them! All he does is post i post links that scream about the economic cost but mention nothing about the gain! Watch, he'll do it again in response to this post!!!!!

[Barnaby Jones]

BECAUSE IT ENCOURAGES COMPETITION BTWN THE 50 STATES Things were relatively ok before the dept of education. All it does is collect money and doles it out again. The states on a local level could do a much better job than the feds.

I know we are stuck with these bureaucracies but it should not be the role of the feds. They have 18 things that they can do like issuing currency, estabishing post offices, maintaining an Army, things like that. All other powers are left to the states

Hahahahahaaah!!! So you DO want the states to operate as fiefdoms! You can't be serious about this! How do you expect any kind of fair competition between 50 different wildly different states?

[foodcourtdruide]

In all of his illegal immigration ranting he has not once been able to provide a single source that shows that the cost of illegals outweighs what the country "makes" off of them! All he does is post i post links that scream about the economic cost but mention nothing about the gain! Watch, he'll do it again in response to this post!!!!!

I'm anticipating that. I just don't know why he sights economic reasons as his concern, then presents something that would clearly, without debate, be more expensive. It's such a lie. I like WF, and I just want his honest reasons for not wanting illegal immigrants here.

[Barnaby Jones]

Im saying that it would cost a hell of a lot less to have our military on the border instead of 8000 miles away.

It's still ridiculously expensive and would be an indefinite deployment that would have to secure the north and south borders and the coasts! You're defending this like someone saying that only having explosive, bloody diarrhea is better than having diarrhea AND throwing up at the same time!!!

[Barnaby Jones]

I'm anticipating that. I just don't know why he sights economic reasons as his concern, then presents something that would clearly, without debate, be more expensive. It's such a lie. I like WF, and I just want his honest reasons for not wanting illegal immigrants here.

I'm totally with you on this!!!

[WRESTLINGFAN]

So you want to slash the defense budget...but you want the military to lock down all of our borders? How does that work????!?!!?!!?

Not just the defense budget, Also DHS as well its a giant tax vacuum and not needed.


FY 2010 DHS Budget is 43 billion dollars

It would cost 285 billion to for a Mass deportation. This was from the center for American progress far from a right leaning organization


http://blogs.chron.com/immigration/archives/2010/03/cost_for_mass_d.html

If we actually started deporting more people and enforced out border security, people would think twice about hopping over or overstaying their visa.

But it doesnt have to be that extreme. Deny housing, education, entitlements punish employers and landlords, Make life unbearable for them, illegals would see that its not worh it here and end up self deporting.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

It's still ridiculously expensive and would be an indefinite deployment that would have to secure the north and south borders and the coasts! You're defending this like someone saying that only having explosive, bloody diarrhea is better than having diarrhea AND throwing up at the same time!!!

It would benefit the local economies. Soldiers spend money too. Since they are not able to , shop, go to bars and restaurants in iraq and Afghanistan they can do those things here.

[JPMNICK]

the problem with cutting anything is the huge amount of job losses that come with it.

People talk about getting rid of the IRS and using a flat tax, which I think is a great idea. but there are a LOT of people who make their living because of our current tax system. all the employees of the IRS, accountants, their staffs, lots of computer programmers who write internal or for sale tax software for companies.

[Zorro]

..how taxes for both regular people AND corporate could be cut . But then it has some good budget cuts too.Still, it'll never get through Congress. Repubs will balk at the Defense cuts and the cutting of all loopholes( which is how most rich people don't pay that many taxes). Dems will balk at cuts in Medicare & Soc Sec . I can speak to one of those things.The entire Medicine lobby will spend BILLIONS in graft to keep their cuts from coming. First ,every doctor will threaten to cut off EVERYBODY on Medicare if they enact the cuts they want , and then they have everybody above 55 screaming for whoever cut it. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing, but it will happen

One man's loophole is another man's tax law.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

the problem with cutting anything is the huge amount of job losses that come with it.

People talk about getting rid of the IRS and using a flat tax, which I think is a great idea. but there are a LOT of people who make their living because of our current tax system. all the employees of the IRS, accountants, their staffs, lots of computer programmers who write internal or for sale tax software for companies.

Agreed there would be losses of government jobs but the private sector has been bleeding for 2 years. If we were to go to a fair tax, Im sure the programmers analysts could be trained in the next tax system software. There would still be a need for a revenue collection agency but not att he scale of the IRS

[Dudeman]

The cost of paying for health care for those who don't have insurance is quite expensive. They show up in the ER when they have an acute problem or their disease/injury has progressed to the point of requiring intensive care. At that point the physicians' hands are tied and need to provide the care, although there isn't a good way to pay for it. Meanwhile, some "healthy" people go without insurance leaving those with conditions buying a disproportionate of insurance, which ties the hands of insurance companies as a higher than needed proportion of buyers have expensive medical costs. To deal with these problems, which have a great impact on our economy, and therefore our deficit/debt problem, it would be great if we could expand health care coverage. If only we had a president and speaker of the house that had the political guts to move toward that goal.
:smile:

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I know its only a small part of our budget , However time to cut off foreign aid. Israel will not cease to exist if they don't get 3 billiion dollars next year

[Barnaby Jones]

Not just the defense budget, Also DHS as well its a giant tax vacuum and not needed.


FY 2010 DHS Budget is 43 billion dollars

It would cost 285 billion to for a Mass deportation. This was from the center for American progress far from a right leaning organization


http://blogs.chron.com/immigration/archives/2010/03/cost_for_mass_d.html

If we actually started deporting more people and enforced out border security, people would think twice about hopping over or overstaying their visa.

But it doesnt have to be that extreme. Deny housing, education, entitlements punish employers and landlords, Make life unbearable for them, illegals would see that its not worh it here and end up self deporting.

So show a projection that shows that that he recurring cost of that ongoing, indefinite process saves more money than the current situation with illegals! You realize that the number you quoted above isn't for a one and done situation, right?

[Barnaby Jones]

It would benefit the local economies. Soldiers spend money too. Since they are not able to , shop, go to bars and restaurants in iraq and Afghanistan they can do those things here.

This just can't be your argument! It can't be!

[WRESTLINGFAN]

While Obama is expanding this monster, In fairness to him as many people on the right tend to forget, this debt and deficits did not start under him. This is a 100 year project in the making and trying to unwind these bureaucracies will take years if not decades to do

[WRESTLINGFAN]

So show a projection that shows that that he recurring cost of that ongoing, indefinite process saves more money than the current situation with illegals! You realize that the number you quoted above isn't for a one and done situation, right?

Correct but enforcement and deportation will inhibit people from coming here illegally. I admit that no system is perfect and people will slip thru the cracks, there will not be another 20 million people here illegally in 2020

If Amnesty is passed again, "katie bar the door" because the 1986 bill increased illegal immigration, a blanket Amnesty today will make it look insignifigant

[WRESTLINGFAN]

This just can't be your argument! It can't be!

billions would not be going to mercenaries like XE (formerly BLackwater)

[Barnaby Jones]

Correct but enforcement and deportation will inhibit people from coming here illegally. I admit that no system is perfect and people will slip thru the cracks, there will not be another 20 million people here illegally in 2020

If Amnesty is passed again, "katie bar the door" because the 1986 bill increased illegal immigration, a blanket Amnesty today will make it look insignifigant

Again, try and find some kind of estimate that shows an indefinite deployment of our military to secure ALL of our borders each year would cost less than the average annual expense of illegals! You seem to be operating under the idea that the deployment of military in non-combat situations doesn't cost much!

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Again, try and find some kind of estimate that shows an indefinite deployment of our military to secure ALL of our borders each year would cost less than the average annual expense of illegals! You seem to be operating under the idea that the deployment of military in non-combat situations doesn't cost much!

Who is ducking?

And try to find a correlation that another Amnesty bill will stop people from coming here illegally.

They dont have to be deployed forever, but if we clamped down and enforced our laws instead of letting illegals with muliple DWI arrests stay because their girlfriend pumped out an anhcor baby, people south of the border would think twice and say that its not worth the risk.

I dont care about families breaking up tears. they can bring their kids with them. BTW Families are broken up every day when daddy goes to jail

[Barnaby Jones]

Where did I bring up amnesty in this thread??!?!??!

Why would the deployment not be indefinite?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Where did I bring up amnesty in this thread??!?!??!

Why would the deployment not be indefinite?

If its a 5 year deployment it would still cost less than a deployment overseas. Maybe use the National guard units from the border states to rotate.


In the long run money is saved becuase it wont be pissed away on all the freebies that illegals get courtesy of the taxpayer.

I'll say it again, these people would self deport if we just enforced the law and made it virtually impossible for them to get jobs, housing and assistance.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Reasons why Dept of education eeds to be abolishedis because when it was formed the promise was that it would have less than 100 employees. Today theres over 500 paper pushers. Also the spending has increased dramatically while test scores have remained flat. Math scores have also dropped against other developed countries. Throwing money at education in a rathole has not made better students.

With all those employees theres the added costs of bloated benefits and pensions. The dept of education is one of the many bureaucracies if eliminated would lower our debt and defecit

[Barnaby Jones]

If its a 5 year deployment it would still cost less than a deployment overseas. Maybe use the National guard units from the border states to rotate.


In the long run money is saved becuase it wont be pissed away on all the freebies that illegals get courtesy of the taxpayer.

I'll say it again, these people would self deport if we just enforced the law and made it virtually impossible for them to get jobs, housing and assistance.

Whhhhhyyyyyyyy would it only be 5 years?!?!?!

And you're approach is still ass-backwards even when you go in the right direction!!!! You cut off the incentive by cracking down on the business and land owners, but the people taking the opportunities offered!!!

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Whhhhhyyyyyyyy would it only be 5 years?!?!?!

And you're approach is still ass-backwards even when you go in the right direction!!!! You cut off the incentive by cracking down on the business and land owners, but the people taking the opportunities offered!!!

Of course go after the source of the problem which are the employers also, but the illegals need to be dealt with . No rewarding illegal immigration. No amnesty, no entitlements and no automatic citizenship for their anchor babies.

If all these factors would be put into place, they would stay in their countries. Illegals are not stupid, they know well in advance that they can leech off the taxpayer. Thats a big reason why they are here.

[Barnaby Jones]

Reasons why Dept of education eeds to be abolishedis

What an epic failure!!!!!

because when it was formed the promise was that it would have less than 100 employees. Today theres over 500 paper pushers.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH!!! You really think eliminating 400 employees is going to have any kind of impact on government spending?!!?? You really think a country this size can have a Department of Education with only 100 people?!?!?

Also the spending has increased dramatically while test scores have remained flat. Math scores have also dropped against other developed countries. Throwing money at education in a rathole has not made better students.

So you're answer is to complicate things and make it even more difficult by splintering in 50 different directions?!?! Are you high?!?!? I'm stunned you don't want broken down even more and run on a country by country basis!!!! How can you claim to be against waste with a straight face?!?!?!

With all those employees theres the added costs of bloated benefits and pensions. The dept of education is one of the many bureaucracies if eliminated would lower our debt and defecit

Give us some numbers, Wonder Woman!!!! How much is the Department of Education fleecing from us poor put upon citizens?!?!?!

Just give up.

[Barnaby Jones]

Of course go after the source of the problem which are the employers also, but the illegals need to be dealt with also. No rewarding illegal immigration. No amnesty, no entitlements and no automatic citizenship for their anchor babies

You're not against waste!!! You cut off the source then you've "won!!!" Why would you want waste even more money going after illegals if you can cut off the incentive for them to be here?!?!?! That's the main goal!!!! Trying to play catchup if you can accomplish that is a waste of time, resources and money that outweighs the cost! Just draw a line in the sand and move on!!!! Stop pretending like you have any care at all about cutting down on government waste!!!!

[WRESTLINGFAN]

What an epic failure!!!!!



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH!!! You really think eliminating 400 employees is going to have any kind of impact on government spending?!!?? You really think a country this size can have a Department of Education with only 100 people?!?!?



So you're answer is to complicate things and make it even more difficult by splintering in 50 different directions?!?! Are you high?!?!? I'm stunned you don't want broken down even more and run on a country by country basis!!!! How can you claim to be against waste with a straight face?!?!?!



Give us some numbers, Wonder Woman!!!! How much is the Department of Education fleecing from us poor put upon citizens?!?!?!

Just give up.

It was a typo. The dept of Ed has 5000 employees. Let the states compete against each other in regards to education

30 years later test scores are still down, Billion of dollars down a rathole and a bigger more monsterous bureaucracy.

Quotes from members of congress against it. All Democrats

“This is a back-room deal, born out of a squalid politics. Everything we had thought we would not see happening to education is happening here.” Senator Patrick Moynihan (D-NY) 6


“No matter what anyone says, the Department of Education will not just write checks to local school boards. They will meddle in everything. I do not want that.” Representative Pat Schroeder (D-CO) 7


“A national Department may actually impede the innovation of local programs as it attempts to establish uniformity throughout the Nation.” Representative Joseph Early (D-MA) 8


“We will be minimizing the roles of local and State education officials; we recognize that the States are responsible for the education policies of the children in the is country.” Representative Shirley Chisholm (D-NY) 9




Here are your numbers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_Education.


For 2006, the ED discretionary budget was US$56 billion and the mandatory budget contained $23.4 billion. Currently, the budget is $68.6 billion, according to the Dept. of Education website.

No child left behind? Sure what a success that was


What else do you want the fed gov't involved with? Should there be 1 national drivers license?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

You're not against waste!!! You cut off the source then you've "won!!!" Why would you want waste even more money going after illegals if you can cut off the incentive for them to be here?!?!?! That's the main goal!!!! Trying to play catchup if you can accomplish that is a waste of time, resources and money that outweighs the cost! Just draw a line in the sand and move on!!!! Stop pretending like you have any care at all about cutting down on government waste!!!!

What part of punishing the employers/landlords didn't you get?

You assume that I want ICE agents to just stop every short brown guy on the street for no reason. Thats not what I am talking about. However if its determined that someone is here illegally after being stopped for a DWI or driving without a license or even a busted tail light and he can't provide a valid ID. Toss him out. Detain him temporarily so theres time for him to decide if he wants to bring his family back with him.


Back to denying them any benefits. Do you think these illegals would stay here if there are no resources for them? Look what happened in Arizona they fled in droves

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Arizona+immigration+provoked+exodus+Hispanics+Stud y/3809832/story.html



Illegals should live in fear knowing that they could be deported for committing other crimes, besides living here illegally, evading taxes, document fraud, ID theft and I have no pity for them. They rolled the dice and took the chance.

[Barnaby Jones]

What part of punishing the employers/landlords didn't you get?

You assume that I want ICE agents to just stop every short brown guy on the street for no reason. Thats not what I am talking about. However if its determined that someone is here illegally after being stopped for a DWI or driving without a license or even a busted tail light and he can't provide a valid ID. Toss him out. Detain him temporarily so theres time for him to decide if he wants to bring his family back with him.


Back to denying them any benefits. Do you think these illegals would stay here if there are no resources for them? Look what happened in Arizona they fled in droves

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Arizona+immigration+provoked+exodus+Hispanics+Stud y/3809832/story.html



Illegals should live in fear knowing that they could be deported for committing other crimes, besides living here illegally, evading taxes, document fraud, ID theft and I have no pity for them. They rolled the dice and took the chance.

You're a broken record!!! Just stop!!! There's simply no reason to automatically deport ALL illegals who are simply for being here illegally! You keep proposing draconian measures that we don't have the resources to deal with and would cost us too much money! Deport illegals who are caught committing serious crimes or are repeat offenders and the like!!! Focus on cracking down on the reasons why people come here illegally as well as streamlining the legal immigration process and you'll have much more impact on the issue than anything you're proposing!

[Dude!]

Back to denying them any benefits. Do you think these illegals would stay here if there are no resources for them? Look what happened in Arizona they fled in droves

WF, i am always impressed
at how calmly you make
your arguments and
what patience you show
when responding to
vicious old queens

[Barnaby Jones]

It was a typo. The dept of Ed has 5000 employees. Let the states compete against each other in regards to education

30 years later test scores are still down, Billion of dollars down a rathole and a bigger more monsterous bureaucracy.

Quotes from members of congress against it. All Democrats

“This is a back-room deal, born out of a squalid politics. Everything we had thought we would not see happening to education is happening here.” Senator Patrick Moynihan (D-NY) 6


“No matter what anyone says, the Department of Education will not just write checks to local school boards. They will meddle in everything. I do not want that.” Representative Pat Schroeder (D-CO) 7


“A national Department may actually impede the innovation of local programs as it attempts to establish uniformity throughout the Nation.” Representative Joseph Early (D-MA) 8


“We will be minimizing the roles of local and State education officials; we recognize that the States are responsible for the education policies of the children in the is country.” Representative Shirley Chisholm (D-NY) 9




Here are your numbers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_Education.


For 2006, the ED discretionary budget was US$56 billion and the mandatory budget contained $23.4 billion. Currently, the budget is $68.6 billion, according to the Dept. of Education website.

No child left behind? Sure what a success that was


What else do you want the fed gov't involved with? Should there be 1 national drivers license?

So reform it, champ! I don't see how you possibly think that having our education managed by 50 different governments is going to improve things or be less wasteful, or how even all the states would be able to cover the necessary costs!!! Why are you so opposed to middle ground solutions??!? Like immigration, you see everything in this goofy, black and white absolutes and act like any middle ground is some kind of failure, never mind if it's so much more efficient and less wasteful than your suggestions!!!! Why is your onloy solution to do away with the DoE? Answer: because you have no fucking clue what you're talking about!

And yes, we should have national ID's/driver licenses instead of having to get one each time we move to a different state!!! Christ, talk about a waste of money and resources!!!

[WRESTLINGFAN]

WF, i am always impressed
at how calmly you make
your arguments and
what patience you show
when responding to
vicious old queens

Thank you Dude.

Im paraphrasing George Will. When you dont have the facts argue the law, when you dont have the law argue the facts. When you dont have neither. Pound the desk

Progressives always get emotional.

[Barnaby Jones]

He's so off the deep end he thinks and endorsement from the likes of Dude! is something to be proud of! You do realize that just makes you look even worse, right?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

So reform it, champ! I don't see how you possibly think that having our education managed by 50 different governments is going to improve things or be less wasteful, or how even all the states would be able to cover the necessary costs!!! Why are you so opposed to middle ground solutions??!? Like immigration, you see everything in this goofy, black and white absolutes and act like any middle ground is some kind of failure, never mind if it's so much more efficient and less wasteful than your suggestions!!!! Why is your onloy solution to do away with the DoE? Answer: because you have no fucking clue what you're talking about!

And yes, we should have national ID's/driver licenses instead of having to get one each time we move to a different state!!! Christ, talk about a waste of money and resources!!!

You people always bring up reform and it makes things worse. Healthcare reform, financial reform, Immigration reform.

I just gave you the facts why the DoE is a waste of resources and money, A bloated bureaucracy with awful results. The feds have 18 enumerated powers and education is not one of them. Bu im sure youre going to say that its an 18th century piece of paper

[WRESTLINGFAN]

He's so off the deep end he thinks and endorsement from the likes of Dude! is something to be proud of! You do realize that just makes you look even worse, right?

I am not the one throwing a tantrum , and they say that progressives aren't bitter

[Barnaby Jones]

I am not the one throwing a tantrum , and they say that progressives aren't bitter

Tantrum?!?!?!? You're the one repeatedly mentioning ridiculous overreactions to government waste and you're saying other people are throwing tantrums?!?!?! Are you sure not thinking of one of your thousands of posts bitching about immigration or simultaneously talking about cutting waste and making more of it at the same time? You say you brought up "facts" as to why the DoE should be gone, but you've not once shown what would be a better option!!!! That's sort of key!!!

This is just so frustrating!!! You make crazy statements talking about how reform is a waste of time and slashing is the only answer! How can anyone argue with that? I'm punching out!!!

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Tantrum?!?!?!? You're the one repeatedly mentioning ridiculous overreactions to government waste and you're saying other people are throwing tantrums?!?!?! Are you sure not thinking of one of your thousands of posts bitching about immigration or simultaneously talking about cutting waste and making more of it at the same time? You say you brought up "facts" as to why the DoE should be gone, but you've not once shown what would be a better option!!!! That's sort of key!!!

This is just so frustrating!!! You make crazy statements talking about how reform is a waste of time and slashing is the only answer! How can anyone argue with that? I'm punching out!!!

For education, return the power back to the states.

By allowing illegals to stay here the welfare state gets bigger and bigger and allowing more to come in expands it more. Thats not pissing money away ?

What do you want cut or reformed? I offered up slashing the military budget, getting rid of Homeland Security and DoE for example. Where would you trim or eliminate?

[Barnaby Jones]

Please, please, please finally explain how state-run education would be better and how it wouldn't cause massive disparity between the educational abilities of the states!!!!

If you're looking to cut money then we start with defense and we have a loooooooooonnnnnnnnnng way to go before we get to anything else!!! It dwarfs so much of the country's other expenses!!! I agree with homeland security, but if anything things like the DoE and energy and depratment of transportation arguably need MORE money, ideally money cut from defense! A country of scope and size needs to drastically improve our infrustucture and education and energy resources nationwide, and breaking that up for the states isn't going to accomplish that! We have to look at this as one country and not a loose collection of small countries or territories! What you're suggesting won't result in good for the country as a whole, and that's essential!!! Cutting is not automatically the answer!!! Some areas need more money and resources, but with better federal oversight!!!

Just stop with the immigration crap!!!! Nobody here is suggesting that the situation just remain unaddressed!!!! People repeatedly talk about wanting to see the government cracking down hard on people that exploit immigrants and streamlining the immigration progress so more illegals will come here legally!!! That's much better in the long run and a much more productive avenue of reform!!! Illegals aren't breaking the bank right now because the money they "put in" outweighs what they "take," so the smart thing would be to approach this to improve the situation in the long run so that in benefits as many people as possible!!!


Gaaaah!!! I should have punched out!!!!

[Dudeman]

The right loves to talk about how the US is the greatest country in the world and has the best of everything. Yet they are too dumb to fund the things that actually make the country great.... taxes and government are bad....

From this week's journal Science, one of the top 2 or 3 science journals in the world and the publication of the American Association for the Advancement of Science:

"Science 12 November 2010:
Vol. 330. no. 6006, pp. 896 - 897

Researchers Anxious and on the Defensive After Republican Gains

Many researchers fear the worst after a Republican resurgence at the polls produced a 25-plus-seat majority in the U.S. House of Representatives and loosened the Democrats' grip on the Senate. The 2 November vote ended a 4-year streak of district, state, and national successes by Democrats that paved the way for unprecedented increases in federal research funding. The 112th Congress that will convene in January could be headed down another path. Budget hawks are preparing to reduce overall federal spending, newly elected members are questioning the need to take action against rising levels of greenhouse gases, and advocates for smaller government are eying pieces of the Department of Education, the Department of Energy, and even the National Science Foundation."

[Devo37]

The right loves to talk about how the US is the greatest country in the world and has the best of everything. Yet they are too dumb to fund the things that actually make the country great.... taxes and government are bad....

From this week's journal Science, one of the top 2 or 3 science journals in the world and the publication of the American Association for the Advancement of Science:

"Science 12 November 2010:
Vol. 330. no. 6006, pp. 896 - 897

Researchers Anxious and on the Defensive After Republican Gains

Many researchers fear the worst after a Republican resurgence at the polls produced a 25-plus-seat majority in the U.S. House of Representatives and loosened the Democrats' grip on the Senate. The 2 November vote ended a 4-year streak of district, state, and national successes by Democrats that paved the way for unprecedented increases in federal research funding. The 112th Congress that will convene in January could be headed down another path. Budget hawks are preparing to reduce overall federal spending, newly elected members are questioning the need to take action against rising levels of greenhouse gases, and advocates for smaller government are eying pieces of the Department of Education, the Department of Energy, and even the National Science Foundation."

why must everything be over-simplified into a Right vs. Left argument?????

government is filled with career politicians (right, left, center) whose only goal is keeping themselves in office. whether it's by spending lots of taxpayer money on defense budgets, or spending lots of taxpayer money on arts & sciences, the goal is to get people to vote for them, not to actually improve anything. any positive benefits are just side-effects of politicians trying to get re-elected. :wallbash:

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Please, please, please finally explain how state-run education would be better and how it wouldn't cause massive disparity between the educational abilities of the states!!!!

If you're looking to cut money then we start with defense and we have a loooooooooonnnnnnnnnng way to go before we get to anything else!!! It dwarfs so much of the country's other expenses!!! I agree with homeland security, but if anything things like the DoE and energy and depratment of transportation arguably need MORE money, ideally money cut from defense! A country of scope and size needs to drastically improve our infrustucture and education and energy resources nationwide, and breaking that up for the states isn't going to accomplish that! We have to look at this as one country and not a loose collection of small countries or territories! What you're suggesting won't result in good for the country as a whole, and that's essential!!! Cutting is not automatically the answer!!! Some areas need more money and resources, but with better federal oversight!!!

Just stop with the immigration crap!!!! Nobody here is suggesting that the situation just remain unaddressed!!!! People repeatedly talk about wanting to see the government cracking down hard on people that exploit immigrants and streamlining the immigration progress so more illegals will come here legally!!! That's much better in the long run and a much more productive avenue of reform!!! Illegals aren't breaking the bank right now because the money they "put in" outweighs what they "take," so the smart thing would be to approach this to improve the situation in the long run so that in benefits as many people as possible!!!


Gaaaah!!! I should have punched out!!!!

States can manage their own lines of revenue thru property taxes. Like I said We were able to survive 200 years without the DoE. Test scores aren't up. Dropout rates are high especially in urban areas. There should be greater control on the state and local level, thats where reform is needed


As far as some of the other bureaucracies time for some consolidation. I think there are 16 different intel agencies, time to end the redundancy. 800K people with top secret clearance is waaaaay too much.

Im not going to talk about immigration, you have already seen my stance on that one.


On defense we agree on that one

[Barnaby Jones]

Stop talking about 200 years ago or 150 years ago or 100 years ago like it pertains to how we need to handle education nationwide today!!! That's just silly!!! Leaving it up to the states puts too many states at severe disadvantages in regards to funding and taxation, and also opens up the door to our educational system being even more skewed and shortsighted than it is now!!!

800k with top secret is "too much?" How do you figure that?!?!?

[Barnaby Jones]

why must everything be over-simplified into a Right vs. Left argument?????

government is filled with career politicians (right, left, center) whose only goal is keeping themselves in office. whether it's by spending lots of taxpayer money on defense budgets, or spending lots of taxpayer money on arts & sciences, the goal is to get people to vote for them, not to actually improve anything. any positive benefits are just side-effects of politicians trying to get re-elected. :wallbash:



That's great, maaaaaaannnnnnnnnnn!!! Call us when you get done with the ultimate frisbee tournament on the quad!!! Sheesh!!!

[Pitdoc]

States can manage their own lines of revenue thru property taxes. Like I said We were able to survive 200 years without the DoE. Test scores aren't up. Dropout rates are high especially in urban areas. There should be greater control on the state and local level, thats where reform is needed


As far as some of the other bureaucracies time for some consolidation. I think there are 16 different intel agencies, time to end the redundancy. 800K people with top secret clearance is waaaaay too much.

Im not going to talk about immigration, you have already seen my stance on that one.


On defense we agree on that one

Why don't you two get a room? :smile:

[A.J.]

I know its only a small part of our budget , However time to cut off foreign aid. Israel will not cease to exist if they don't get 3 billiion dollars next year

Anti-Semite.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Stop talking about 200 years ago or 150 years ago or 100 years ago like it pertains to how we need to handle education nationwide today!!! That's just silly!!! Leaving it up to the states puts too many states at severe disadvantages in regards to funding and taxation, and also opens up the door to our educational system being even more skewed and shortsighted than it is now!!!

800k with top secret is "too much?" How do you figure that?!?!?

If thats your arguement then should we have a Dept of Law enforcement and Fire service?


I'll say it again. If states don't have to send money to the feds, they can spend the money on their own educational resources. When Newt shut down the gov't in 1995 the DoE wasn't even affected. Spending per pupil has increased dramatically and the results are still poor.


Close to a million people with classified information is way too much, its redundant and ineffective.

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/07/19/intelligence.report/

[WRESTLINGFAN]

The right loves to talk about how the US is the greatest country in the world and has the best of everything. Yet they are too dumb to fund the things that actually make the country great.... taxes and government are bad....

From this week's journal Science, one of the top 2 or 3 science journals in the world and the publication of the American Association for the Advancement of Science:

"Science 12 November 2010:
Vol. 330. no. 6006, pp. 896 - 897

Researchers Anxious and on the Defensive After Republican Gains

Many researchers fear the worst after a Republican resurgence at the polls produced a 25-plus-seat majority in the U.S. House of Representatives and loosened the Democrats' grip on the Senate. The 2 November vote ended a 4-year streak of district, state, and national successes by Democrats that paved the way for unprecedented increases in federal research funding. The 112th Congress that will convene in January could be headed down another path. Budget hawks are preparing to reduce overall federal spending, newly elected members are questioning the need to take action against rising levels of greenhouse gases, and advocates for smaller government are eying pieces of the Department of Education, the Department of Energy, and even the National Science Foundation."


I don't want a scenario like Mogadishu, However This country is slowly turning into Western Europe. (I know a lot of the teabaggers want to exaggerate and say its turning into Havana or Pyongyang but we are far from that) The skinny guy in the White House isn't coming after my house.

Saying that, This country is turning into a social democracy in which the Federal government has become more bloated and interfering in state and local matters over the past 100 years. With ridiculous bills like Cap and Trade, Congress wants to legislate based on the weather. Yes the climate changes, but there are conflicting reports about if man is causing this. When congress legislates on what type of lightbulbs to use, thats interfering in our lives. The left wants the gov't to stay out of the bedroom but come on into the living room. People should make choices on their own. Same thing with cars. If someone wants to buy a Hummer, its his choice. If someone wants a smart car, mazeltov.. drive whatever you want. Leave it up to the people to make choices based ont heir interests.

[Barnaby Jones]

If thats your arguement then should we have a Dept of Law enforcement and Fire service?

Uh-oh, we don't have a Department of Law Enforcement? Someone better tell the Justice Department and the FBI the bad news!!!

Silly, silly, silly comparisons! I don't know what is possibly going through your head when you come up with such a desperate straw-man!!!!

I'll say it again. If states don't have to send money to the feds, they can spend the money on their own educational resources. When Newt shut down the gov't in 1995 the DoE wasn't even affected. Spending per pupil has increased dramatically and the results are still poor.

You can say it all you want because you have zero clue how much money it takes to handle education in this country and you have zero clue how the various states will be able to finance such services effectively!!!! What "money to the feds" are you even talking about?!?! If you're talking about education-related expenses, do you honestly think that's enough for each state to handle their own educational systems?!?

And hey, it may be tough for you to deal with, but the results could very well mean we need to spend MORE!!! You have this weird sense that you think a country of this size can fix everything by automatically spending less!!! That's not how it works! Splintering education across the states will cause even more disparity!!! The curriculum will end wildly varying from state to state which will just put us into even more of a hole intellectually, socially and economically!!!!


Close to a million people with classified information is way too much, its redundant and ineffective.

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/07/19/intelligence.report/

Once more you're running around with the idea that a country of this size and scope is supposed to be run like a corner grocery store!!! Why don't you tell us what number would be better? Why don't you explain to us about how brutally slashing the federal government and creating tens of thousands of new unemployed is going to help the economy and create more jobs??!?

[Barnaby Jones]

I don't want a scenario like Mogadishu, However This country is slowly turning into Western Europe. (I know a lot of the teabaggers want to exaggerate and say its turning into Havana or Pyongyang but we are far from that) The skinny guy in the White House isn't coming after my house.

Saying that, This country is turning into a social democracy in which the Federal government has become more bloated and interfering in state and local matters over the past 100 years. With ridiculous bills like Cap and Trade, Congress wants to legislate based on the weather. Yes the climate changes, but there are conflicting reports about if man is causing this. When congress legislates on what type of lightbulbs to use, thats interfering in our lives. The left wants the gov't to stay out of the bedroom but come on into the living room. People should make choices on their own. Same thing with cars. If someone wants to buy a Hummer, its his choice. If someone wants a smart car, mazeltov.. drive whatever you want. Leave it up to the people to make choices based ont heir interests.

Let me guess: you want things like the EPA and FDA slashed as well, right?!?!?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Let me guess: you want things like the EPA and FDA slashed as well, right?!?!?

Why not? There needs to be cuts across the board. You cant just slash DoD and DHS. Everything needs to be on the table

[Barnaby Jones]

I'm just stopping! There's no point in debating with someone like this! You seem to think the answer is just slashing everything arbitrarily across the board! Later, gator!

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I'm just stopping! There's no point in debating with someone like this! You seem to think the answer is just slashing everything arbitrarily across the board! Later, gator!

Whats your solution then? Why wouldn't bureaucracies be slashed across the board? We both agree that the country is drowning in red ink. What are your alternatives to cutting the bureaucracies?

[foodcourtdruide]

Why not? There needs to be cuts across the board. You cant just slash DoD and DHS. Everything needs to be on the table

Libertarians point of view on slashing the FDA and EPA cracks me up. They say that corporations will enforce their own health standards, because if their was a major health concern about a product it would hurt the companies sales.

For the companies sales to be hurt and the market to correct itself and that company to stop producing a bad product, THE MAJOR HEALTH CONCERN WOULD HAVE TO HAPPEN FIRST.

So, instead of having an organization set safety regulations, we should, you know, all die first THEN things will correct themselves.

[Dudeman]

Libertarians point of view on slashing the FDA and EPA cracks me up. They say that corporations will enforce their own health standards, because if their was a major health concern about a product it would hurt the companies sales.

For the companies sales to be hurt and the market to correct itself and that company to stop producing a bad product, THE MAJOR HEALTH CONCERN WOULD HAVE TO HAPPEN FIRST.

So, instead of having an organization set safety regulations, we should, you know, all die first THEN things will correct themselves.

:thumbup:

[Barnaby Jones]

Whats your solution then? Why wouldn't bureaucracies be slashed across the board? We both agree that the country is drowning in red ink. What are your alternatives to cutting the bureaucracies?

Let's keep this focused so I don't go nuts!

I would focus on defense cutting first! You're looking at a cost of over a trillion dollars right there alone! That is by far the most urgent and obvious area that our government can start making dramatic and lasting financial reform! That should be the priority before slashing anything else because that alone could have such a gigantic impact! Yes, cuts have to be made, but cutting massively across the board would be catastrophic to the government and to the economy! This needs to be done in stages, and the focus needs to be started on the biggest area of waste, which is defense waaaaaaaaay before anything else! Once the long process of that was completed, then start moving on and seeing what needs to be trimmed! It would be foolish to start making gigantic cuts to multiple agencies and government all at once!

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Libertarians point of view on slashing the FDA and EPA cracks me up. They say that corporations will enforce their own health standards, because if their was a major health concern about a product it would hurt the companies sales.

For the companies sales to be hurt and the market to correct itself and that company to stop producing a bad product, THE MAJOR HEALTH CONCERN WOULD HAVE TO HAPPEN FIRST.

So, instead of having an organization set safety regulations, we should, you know, all die first THEN things will correct themselves.

Progressives think that having top down blanket regulations , and a nanny state will prevent anything from going wrong and when these fail, they add even more layers and layers. They claim to be self thinking and enlightened but really they need to listen to their masters disguised as politicians.

Count me out. I know smoking causes lung cancer. Drinking excessively causes cirrosis of the liver. I have a doctor to warn me about that. Nancy Pelosi doesnt have to remind me

100 years of progressivism only created more poverty, illiteracy, ignorance and dependency on government. I get a kick out of the lemmings saying that the federal government is supposed to take care of the people

[Barnaby Jones]

Progressives think that having top down blanket regulations , and a nanny state will prevent anything from going wrong and when these fail, they add even more layers and layers. They claim to be self thinking and enlightened but really they need to listen to their masters disguised as politicians.

Count me out. I know smoking causes lung cancer. Drinking excessively causes cirrosis of the liver. I have a doctor to warn me about that. Nancy Pelosi doesnt have to remind me

100 years f progressivism only created more poverty, illiteracy, ignorance and dependency on government.

This is just a bunch of gobbledygook! You use the term "progressives" as an insult, check! Pointless use of Nancy Pelosi as a villain when it has nothing to do with this, check! Talking about government regulation like it's some kind of slavery, check!

You can't explain why industry would regulate itself when our history shows that until the government stepped in industry operated with a gigantic disregard for human safety, whether as employees or consumers, so you just go back to these crazy spin tangents that just sound like an Alex Jones transcript!

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Let's keep this focused so I don't go nuts!

I would focus on defense cutting first! You're looking at a cost of over a trillion dollars right there alone! That is by far the most urgent and obvious area that our government can start making dramatic and lasting financial reform! That should be the priority before slashing anything else because that alone could have such a gigantic impact! Yes, cuts have to be made, but cutting massively across the board would be catastrophic to the government and to the economy! This needs to be done in stages, and the focus needs to be started on the biggest area of waste, which is defense waaaaaaaaay before anything else! Once the long process of that was completed, then start moving on and seeing what needs to be trimmed! It would be foolish to start making gigantic cuts to multiple agencies and government all at once!

OK fair enough but DHS should also be on the chopping block as one of the 1st agancies. Unfortunately Dubya started this police state after 9/11 and Obama is continuing this. If theres a President Romney or Huckabee or god forbid Palin watch out, it will be increased even more. NeoCons love the police state. No matter how many body scanners, checkpoints etc. The probability of another attack on US soil is very high. I hope I am wrong but I believe that we still have a giant target on our backs. I think the TSA falls under the DHS and that has caused more headaches, unnecessary problems etc for air travel. You can not assume that every olive skinned person with a beard is a Jihadist.


As far as other agencies. I could be Ok with a graudal phase out of other agencies as it would take multiple years to do. Its become so tangled that a complete wind down in a week is impossible.

[Dudeman]

This is just a bunch of gobbledygook! You use the term "progressives" as an insult, check! Pointless use of Nancy Pelosi as a villain when it has nothing to do with this, check! Talking about government regulation like it's some kind of slavery, check!

You can't explain why industry would regulate itself when our history shows that until the government stepped in industry operated with a gigantic disregard for human safety, whether as employees or consumers, so you just go back to these crazy spin tangents that just sound like an Alex Jones transcript!

:thumbup:

[WRESTLINGFAN]

This is just a bunch of gobbledygook! You use the term "progressives" as an insult, check! Pointless use of Nancy Pelosi as a villain when it has nothing to do with this, check! Talking about government regulation like it's some kind of slavery, check!

You can't explain why industry would regulate itself when our history shows that until the government stepped in industry operated with a gigantic disregard for human safety, whether as employees or consumers, so you just go back to these crazy spin tangents that just sound like an Alex Jones transcript!

Again you make it to sound where you think I want an anarchy. I believe that states can police themselves. Companies can too. For example McDonalds puts a warning label on their coffee cups telling people too dumb to relize that the coffee is hot.


As far as the Alex Jones comment. 9/11 Wasn't an inside job. Dubya isn't that smart to pull off something like that.

[Barnaby Jones]

OK fair enough but DHS should also be on the chopping block as one of the 1st agancies. Unfortunately Dubya started this police state after 9/11 and Obama is continuing this. If theres a President Romney or Huckabee or god forbid Palin watch out, it will be increased even more. NeoCons love the police state. No matter how many body scanners, checkpoints etc. The probability of another attack on US soil is very high. I hope I am wrong but I believe that we still have a giant target on our backs. I think the TSA falls under the DHS and that has caused more headaches, unnecessary problems etc for air travel. You can not assume that every olive skinned person with a beard is a Jihadist.

Even DHS can wait! Focus on the defense budget first! It can probably be trimmed of at least half a trillion dollars a year if we wind down these dumbass wars and focus on actually defense as oppose to being staged to go on the offensive! I'd have no problem seeing DHS eventually folded into other agencies, but these things need to be taken one at a time!

As far as other agencies. I could be Ok with a graudal phase out of other agencies as it would take multiple years to do. Its become so tangled that a complete wind down in a week is impossible.

I'm sorry, but you want too much "phased out!" We're a very large country, not a collection of smaller republics! Most of the states are not in a position to be turned into what you want them to be! You'd have to seriously look into merging many of the states if you want things to go down as dramatically as you keep saying! A country this size needs a strong federal presence and government and there's simply no way around it unless you're going to actually shrink the country itself, too!

[Barnaby Jones]

Again you make it to sound where you think I want an anarchy. I believe that states can police themselves. Companies can too. For example McDonalds puts a warning label on their coffee cups telling people too dumb to relize that the coffee is hot.

Most of the states don't have the resources or the population to sustain much of what they get from the federal government! The playing field simply is nowhere near being level, and you'd end up with a a series of governments run much like the economy in this country currently is, with the bigger states money and resource-wise dominating and pushing aside the smaller ones!

And companies here have shown time and time again they will get away with whatever they can so long as it doesn't cost them, and for most of the big ones it takes a LOT to cost them when it comes to safety and quality! Until the government stepped in you had business in this country completely abusing their employees and their customer base so much worse than it is now so long as they still came out ahead with a profit!

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Article V convention then?

If you think the constitution is outdated then we should disband the federal government and go to a national government like many countries in Western Europe have. Should we go to a parliamentary form of representation also ? I have some friends who are left leaning and they want to do away with the senate all together.


I agree with a lot of progressives here. (dont take it as offensive libs, socialists, and lefties sounds too much like the talkers on the radio what they say) Keep the gov't out of the bedroom when it comes to 2 consenting adults, if 2 people in love want to marry no matter what sex they are fine with me. Get a warrant if you want to listen in on conversations. Pray to which supreme being you want, but don't force it on me or favor 1 religion over another Quit trying to "protect us" with your phony security measures. Let people poison their bodies with as much fast food and alcohol as they want.

However when it comes to the federal gov't. Fight hte wars, collect taxes, and issue currency and the other few powers it has. If the country feels that this doesnt work, then revamp the system and have a do over, or amend the constitution

[Serpico1103]

Again you make it to sound where you think I want an anarchy. I believe that states can police themselves. Companies can too. For example McDonalds puts a warning label on their coffee cups telling people too dumb to relize that the coffee is hot.


As far as the Alex Jones comment. 9/11 Wasn't an inside job. Dubya isn't that smart to pull off something like that.

How hot is coffee?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

How hot is coffee?

This isn't too hot


http://onefrugalchick.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/iced.jpg

[foodcourtdruide]

Progressives think that having top down blanket regulations , and a nanny state will prevent anything from going wrong and when these fail, they add even more layers and layers. They claim to be self thinking and enlightened but really they need to listen to their masters disguised as politicians.

Count me out. I know smoking causes lung cancer. Drinking excessively causes cirrosis of the liver. I have a doctor to warn me about that. Nancy Pelosi doesnt have to remind me

100 years of progressivism only created more poverty, illiteracy, ignorance and dependency on government. I get a kick out of the lemmings saying that the federal government is supposed to take care of the people

I understand your need for bumper sticker slogans... but again, if you didn't have a government body like the FDA, how would you ensure drug companies would test their products properly before they go to market? I know I'm a lemming, but I don't want to be a lemming that gets a heart attack in 6 years because a pharmaceutical company got rich quick off a cholesteral pill they didn't do proper long-term testing on. Wait, should I do my own long term testing before I use the drug? That is feasible.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I understand your need for bumper sticker slogans... but again, if you didn't have a government body like the FDA, how would you ensure drug companies would test their products properly before they go to market? I know I'm a lemming, but I don't want to be a lemming that gets a heart attack in 6 years because a pharmaceutical company got rich quick off a cholesteral pill they didn't do proper long-term testing on. Wait, should I do my own long term testing before I use the drug? That is feasible.

In this age of class action lawsuits do you think a company will risk paying out billions and going out of business if their pill makes you have a heart attack? All that money in R&D would have been wasted.

Medicines/Drugs have side affects thats why on their commercials they state what they are.

[epo]

In this age of class action lawsuits do you think a company will risk paying out billions and going out of business if their pill makes you have a heart attack?

If the cost analysis says its still profitable, then yes.

[Dudeman]

In this age of class action lawsuits do you think a company will risk paying out billions and going out of business if their pill makes you have a heart attack? All that money in R&D would have been wasted.

Medicines/Drugs have side affects thats why on their commercials they state what they are.
1. yes
2. b/c it is gov mandated

[Serpico1103]

In this age of class action lawsuits do you think a company will risk paying out billions and going out of business if their pill makes you have a heart attack? All that money in R&D would have been wasted.

Medicines/Drugs have side affects thats why on their commercials they state what they are.
You do realize corporations have been caught lying to the FDA about their drug testing. But, you think they would be honest with the public without regualtors?
Lawsuits are just another figure in a cost benefit analysis; e.g. Ford Pinto.

Corporations need to be heavily regulated, or you can make stockholders personally liable. Choose one or come up with a third choice; your idea of market forces is not viable.

[foodcourtdruide]

In this age of class action lawsuits do you think a company will risk paying out billions and going out of business if their pill makes you have a heart attack? All that money in R&D would have been wasted.

Medicines/Drugs have side affects thats why on their commercials they state what they are.

I'll reiterate what others have said, yes they would.

[Dudeman]

In this age of class action lawsuits do you think a company will risk paying out billions and going out of business if their pill makes you have a heart attack? All that money in R&D would have been wasted.

Medicines/Drugs have side affects thats why on their commercials they state what they are.

Do you think a company will risk paying out billions and killing multiple people if their pipe line could explode instead of paying to keep up maintenance on the pipe line?

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_bstXBEDnG9w/TIo5t5PyfUI/AAAAAAAADaQ/bXV8dqPNmqE/s1600/san+bruno+fire+aerial+159425728.jpg

[hanso]

Tea Partier's promise my new Gov. ran on and won.
700k new jobs/ budget cut by 20%

The early thing I hear him doing is to deregulate the prisons. This should be good for some wackenhut jobs. And also slash costs of first responders and teachers.

[Dudeman]

Tea Partier's promise my new Gov. ran on and won.
700k new jobs/ budget cut by 20%

The early thing I hear him doing is to deregulate the prisons. This should be good for some wackenhut jobs. And also slash costs of first responders and teachers.

reagan ran on tax cuts and increased defense spending. carter ran on shared sacrifice.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Do you think a company will risk paying out billions and killing multiple people if their pipe line could explode instead of paying to keep up maintenance on the pipe line?

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_bstXBEDnG9w/TIo5t5PyfUI/AAAAAAAADaQ/bXV8dqPNmqE/s1600/san+bruno+fire+aerial+159425728.jpg

And now they will face the music be punished and pay out tons of money just like



http://www.logodesignlove.com/images/classic/bp-shield-logo.jpg

[Serpico1103]

And now they will face the music be punished and pay out tons of money just like



But, the fear of economic reprisal was not enough for them to act safely. Do you see the problem?
The same people that want less government regulation also want tort reform. So, what will guide a corporations actions? Morality?

Regulation is meant to prevent problems, not just solve them.

[Dudeman]

And now they will face the music be punished and pay out tons of money just like


1. The same company had a prior explosion kill someone
http://cbs13.com/local/rancho.cordova.explosion.2.894888.html

2. Then there was evidence that they CUT costs afterwards, before the explosion in the picture above that killed multiple people:
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2010/sep2010/cali-s17.shtml

Left to their own device, the company clearly didn't take the necessary costly steps to ensure people would be safe. Your reasoning = fail.

[foodcourtdruide]

But, the fear of economic reprisal was not enough for them to act safely. Do you see the problem?
The same people that want less government regulation also want tort reform. So, what will guide a corporations actions? Morality?

Regulation is meant to prevent problems, not just solve them.

It's useless serpico. I've had this conversation with so many libertarians and they never have an answer. Their method of regulation is simply let a bunch of people die, then the market will figure itself out. It is extremely naive.

[Serpico1103]

It's useless serpico. I've had this conversation with so many libertarians and they never have an answer. Their method of regulation is simply let a bunch of people die, then the market will figure itself out. It is extremely naive.

Agreed. They fail to realize that the corporate structure is a creation of the government bogeyman. Get rid of the corporate structure then we can talk about companies being responsible citizens.

[Dudeman]

government is filled with career politicians (right, left, center) whose only goal is keeping themselves in office. whether it's by spending lots of taxpayer money on defense budgets, or spending lots of taxpayer money on arts & sciences, the goal is to get people to vote for them, not to actually improve anything. any positive benefits are just side-effects of politicians trying to get re-elected. :wallbash:



obama has put his chance of reelection and of course the rest of his party in congress at risk of not staying in office to push through the first real, much needed healthcare reform. so your statement isnt totally accurate. Now a bunch of half witted fox news watchers go to town hall meeting and yell that the man is hitler, a socialist, etc.

[Barnaby Jones]

Article V convention then?

If you think the constitution is outdated then we should disband the federal government and go to a national government like many countries in Western Europe have. Should we go to a parliamentary form of representation also ? I have some friends who are left leaning and they want to do away with the senate all together.

Then honestly, they are fools! People love to complain about our two party system, but the bottom line is that the "umbrella" style politics we have based out of that is so much more effective and efficient than the governments stuck with parliaments filled with multiple parties!

[epo]

I can't even take this commission, yet this thread seriously. Until we raise taxes on the top 2%, cut spending and realign the nature of our military we ain't solving shit.

[Barnaby Jones]

Now you can try fixing the budget yourself!

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/11/13/weekinreview/deficits-graphic.html

I don't think you can post the results, but I solved the deficit with the following:

Cut foreign aid in half
Reduce military to pre-Iraq War size and further reduce troops in Asia and Europe
Reduce the number of troops in Iraq and Afghanistan to 30,000 by 2013
Cap Medicare growth starting in 2013
Reduce Social Security benefits for those with high incomes
Return the estate tax to Clinton-era levels
President Obama's proposal for investment taxes
Allow expiration of the Bush era tax cuts for income above $250,000 a year
Millionaire's tax on income above $1 million
Eliminate tax loopholes, but keep taxes slightly higher

[epo]

Fine, I fixed it.

46% taxes, 54% spending cuts.

Cut foreign aid in half
Reduce military to pre-Iraq war size
Reduce troops to 30K in Iraq/Afghanistan by 2013.
Cap Medicare growth
Reduce Social Security for high earners
Allow expiration for over $250K -- Bush tax cuts
Payroll tax - raise ceiling over $106K
Close tax loopholes
Carbon tax

I think the interesting thing about the exercise is how big of an impact the military/tax expenditures are, and how small punishing federal employees or stopping earmarks are.

[A.J.]

Cut foreign aid in half

Cut foreign aid in half

Does that include aid to Israel? Because if you think that will ever happen, you're both out of your anti-Semitic minds.

[epo]

Does that include aid to Israel? Because if you think that will ever happen, you're both out of your anti-Semitic minds.

I was asked to fix the deficit and I did. Its not my job to go into the red to give them money.

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[jonyrotn]

http://www.defense.gov/contracts/default.aspx
Oh my...

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Obama has a plan alright. He reminds me of his scene in Sgt Bilko


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[jonyrotn]

http://www.ronpaul2012.net/
Like Stern's dad says..
"I told you don't be stupid you MORON!"...

[hanso]

The guise that these cuts will create jobs by tickle down means (where the $ goes by the rights plans) is a fallacy. We have seen this game plan before. And this one is far worse.

Adjustment will come when the economy rebounds as it has in the past.