Atheist "coming out of the closet" to extremely religious family

[KingModem]

So, I was raised a Lutheran (WELS synod) for my whole life. Went to Lutheran high school, elementary school, etc.

I always fought off potential agnosticism/atheistic thoughts in my head and dismissed them as the devil trying to get in my brain and steer me away from God.

10 years ago, after finally leaving the small town I grew up in, away from my religious family, that is when I started recovery from my religious "responsibilities".

This Christmas weekend, I plan to finally "come out of the closet". My family plans to go to church on Christmas Eve, Christmas Day, and of course Sunday regular service. My girlfriend and I plan to go Christmas Eve to maintain peace, and because it actually is a beautiful production of song, music, and story telling, but we plan to not attend the rest of the services with my entire immediate family.

To make this clear, my family is super religious. My grandfather wrote me a letter last month explaining how he is losing sleep/very concerned about me falling away from Christ. My father would rather have me not come home to visit than to skip church.

Anyone have any support stories? I asked my mother what is worse, being gay or not going to church? She said they are equally wrong and gross. Lucky for me, I have no problems loving women!

[disneyspy]

Lucky for me, I have no problems loving women!

but you perfer men?

[A.J.]

I already told my family I'm atheist and that I refuse to participate in Christmas anymore. I kick in a few bucks for a gift for my grandmother to keep the peace.

[Furtherman]

I don't see why you have to make some big announcement. Why don't you just do the church thing, prayers at the table and any other usual Christmas traditions that will just keep the family happy.

That's what I do.

I won't raise my own family that way, but I'll keep Mom & Dad happy just by going along with it.

They know I don't believe, but they are, after all, a typical catholic family whereas they won't discuss such things and just push it down to a deep, dark place.

Now, unless they keep bringing it up, and they won't leave well enough alone, then I would have a nice list handy of all the other stories jesus was based on with references and facts available for them to see.

[KingModem]

I don't see why you have to make some big announcement. Why don't you just do the church thing, prayers at the table and any other usual Christmas traditions that will just keep the family happy.

In order to maintain a good standing with the church, take communion, etc You need to be a regular goer to the church. I have thus been excommunicated from this church due to non-attendance.

It isn't just about going to church when I am home visiting, it is about constantly going to church. I am not religious, and I am not going to spend 5 hours of my two days at home putting on a fake prayer face anymore. Not to mention, my girlfriend hates it too.

[Furtherman]

In order to maintain a good standing with the church, take communion, etc You need to be a regular goer to the church. I have thus been excommunicated from this church due to non-attendance.

It isn't just about going to church when I am home visiting, it is about constantly going to church. I am not religious, and I am not going to spend 5 hours of my two days at home putting on a fake prayer face anymore. Not to mention, my girlfriend hates it too.

Oh, I underestimated the religious furor of the family.

Good luck with that. They don't have the benefit of quiet, obedient catholicism.

But good for you practicing reality.

[Willmore]

So, I was raised a Lutheran (WELS synod) for my whole life. Went to Lutheran high school, elementary school, etc.

I always fought off potential agnosticism/atheistic thoughts in my head and dismissed them as the devil trying to get in my brain and steer me away from God.

10 years ago, after finally leaving the small town I grew up in, away from my religious family, that is when I started recovery from my religious "responsibilities".

This Christmas weekend, I plan to finally "come out of the closet". My family plans to go to church on Christmas Eve, Christmas Day, and of course Sunday regular service. My girlfriend and I plan to go Christmas Eve to maintain peace, and because it actually is a beautiful production of song, music, and story telling, but we plan to not attend the rest of the services with my entire immediate family.

To make this clear, my family is super religious. My grandfather wrote me a letter last month explaining how he is losing sleep/very concerned about me falling away from Christ. My father would rather have me not come home to visit than to skip church.

Anyone have any support stories? I asked my mother what is worse, being gay or not going to church? She said they are equally wrong and gross. Lucky for me, I have no problems loving women!

WELS synod 4 life!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/93/Bloods_-_Gang_Sign.jpg

[booster11373]

So, I was raised a Lutheran (WELS synod) for my whole life. Went to Lutheran high school, elementary school, etc.

I always fought off potential agnosticism/atheistic thoughts in my head and dismissed them as the devil trying to get in my brain and steer me away from God.

10 years ago, after finally leaving the small town I grew up in, away from my religious family, that is when I started recovery from my religious "responsibilities".

This Christmas weekend, I plan to finally "come out of the closet". My family plans to go to church on Christmas Eve, Christmas Day, and of course Sunday regular service. My girlfriend and I plan to go Christmas Eve to maintain peace, and because it actually is a beautiful production of song, music, and story telling, but we plan to not attend the rest of the services with my entire immediate family.

To make this clear, my family is super religious. My grandfather wrote me a letter last month explaining how he is losing sleep/very concerned about me falling away from Christ. My father would rather have me not come home to visit than to skip church.

Anyone have any support stories? I asked my mother what is worse, being gay or not going to church? She said they are equally wrong and gross. Lucky for me, I have no problems loving women!

Don't go home

[CountryBob]

So, I was raised a Lutheran (WELS synod) for my whole life. Went to Lutheran high school, elementary school, etc.

I always fought off potential agnosticism/atheistic thoughts in my head and dismissed them as the devil trying to get in my brain and steer me away from God.

10 years ago, after finally leaving the small town I grew up in, away from my religious family, that is when I started recovery from my religious "responsibilities".

This Christmas weekend, I plan to finally "come out of the closet". My family plans to go to church on Christmas Eve, Christmas Day, and of course Sunday regular service. My girlfriend and I plan to go Christmas Eve to maintain peace, and because it actually is a beautiful production of song, music, and story telling, but we plan to not attend the rest of the services with my entire immediate family.

To make this clear, my family is super religious. My grandfather wrote me a letter last month explaining how he is losing sleep/very concerned about me falling away from Christ. My father would rather have me not come home to visit than to skip church.

Anyone have any support stories? I asked my mother what is worse, being gay or not going to church? She said they are equally wrong and gross. Lucky for me, I have no problems loving women!

Someone has a secret! Tell em if you feel you need to but be well prepared for the fallout. Since you say your family is ultra religious, I would expect them to banish you for awhile.
Oh, and I will be praying for you to do the right thing - :wink:

[booster11373]

I would suggest that you be firm and assertive with your family

Tell them your position and also state you want to spend this time with them but if that too much for some to handle then I would not go home

[Willmore]

So, I was raised a Lutheran (WELS synod) for my whole life. Went to Lutheran high school, elementary school, etc.

I always fought off potential agnosticism/atheistic thoughts in my head and dismissed them as the devil trying to get in my brain and steer me away from God.

10 years ago, after finally leaving the small town I grew up in, away from my religious family, that is when I started recovery from my religious "responsibilities".

This Christmas weekend, I plan to finally "come out of the closet". My family plans to go to church on Christmas Eve, Christmas Day, and of course Sunday regular service. My girlfriend and I plan to go Christmas Eve to maintain peace, and because it actually is a beautiful production of song, music, and story telling, but we plan to not attend the rest of the services with my entire immediate family.

To make this clear, my family is super religious. My grandfather wrote me a letter last month explaining how he is losing sleep/very concerned about me falling away from Christ. My father would rather have me not come home to visit than to skip church.

Anyone have any support stories? I asked my mother what is worse, being gay or not going to church? She said they are equally wrong and gross. Lucky for me, I have no problems loving women!

As far as religion is concerned, my family is a strict DADT supporter. They don't ask, I don't have to tell. I fake it - went to social church services, participated in child baptisms, etc. It's a couple hours out of my life every once in a while, and I don't have to have the talk, or face the familial consequences.

[CountryBob]

My Dad's been a preacher for 25 years and I have went to his church (or any church) only about 10 times over those 25 years. He always give me shit but I just say that I'm not ready and would feel that it would be blastphemus for me to act like I was a christian when I'm not ready to devote my life.

[Snacks]

So, I was raised a Lutheran (WELS synod) for my whole life. Went to Lutheran high school, elementary school, etc.

I always fought off potential agnosticism/atheistic thoughts in my head and dismissed them as the devil trying to get in my brain and steer me away from God.

10 years ago, after finally leaving the small town I grew up in, away from my religious family, that is when I started recovery from my religious "responsibilities".

This Christmas weekend, I plan to finally "come out of the closet". My family plans to go to church on Christmas Eve, Christmas Day, and of course Sunday regular service. My girlfriend and I plan to go Christmas Eve to maintain peace, and because it actually is a beautiful production of song, music, and story telling, but we plan to not attend the rest of the services with my entire immediate family.

To make this clear, my family is super religious. My grandfather wrote me a letter last month explaining how he is losing sleep/very concerned about me falling away from Christ. My father would rather have me not come home to visit than to skip church.

Anyone have any support stories? I asked my mother what is worse, being gay or not going to church? She said they are equally wrong and gross. Lucky for me, I have no problems loving women!

I commend you and respect you for your views. A word of advice dont even go to the christmas eve mass it will only get thrown in your face when you do tell them afterwards. I will also tell you that no matter how much you try they will never stop trying to force religion on you. you will get the religious emails, and discussions etc. if you believe what you believe you need to tell them you respect what they believe and will not force your beliefs on them but to do to you the same. if they continue then you need to tell them why they are nuts and why your views are right. if they cant respect your views and continue to shit on them you have no choice but to at least tell them your true opinion and what you think of their views! Maybe then they will agree to disagree an no longer bother you with it because they wont want to hear your views either!

that all being said, once you remove religion from the holidays they are really enjoyable for what they are which is to spend time with families, give presents and do good for others that need it. you dont need religion for any of that. add all that to the great food, the xmas trees and decoration it is a beautiful time of year for all!

[foodcourtdruide]

I became a Buddhist about 4 years ago after being a life-long catholic. My family are still all catholic and some disapporved of my change. My fathers side of my extended family didn't even come to my wedding. In the end, I don't give a shit. If someone loved and cared about me, they'd support me no matter what my religion was.

Just my opinion, and I don't think you're any less of a person for feeling a sense of responsibility to your family. I may have handled the whole thing wrong, but I just don't want people who don't respect my beliefs to be part of my life. That may sound cold, but just my opinion.

[CountryBob]

I'm starting to think that everyone needs to just believe in whatever they want - we all end up in the same place when it's over, and have one great big laugh.

[underdog]

Why? I never get this. If your family is unhappy with the way you're living your life, fuck them. You didn't choose them, you were just born into this situation. Don't go home. Live your own life.

[foodcourtdruide]

Why? I never get this. If your family is unhappy with the way you're living your life, fuck them. You didn't choose them, you were just born into this situation. Don't go home. Live your own life.

I don't think it's so easy to just cut your family out of your life. I agree that it's kinda shitty for them to judge like that, but in the end it's still his family.. I get it.

[underdog]

I don't think it's so easy to just cut your family out of your life. I agree that it's kinda shitty for them to judge like that, but in the end it's still his family.. I get it.

If they make you unhappy, cut ties, or at least limit the ties.

[foodcourtdruide]

If they make you unhappy, cut ties, or at least limit the ties.

What if they only make you unhappy in this instance? Nothing in life is ever so black and white.

[underdog]

What if they only make you unhappy in this instance? Nothing in life is ever so black and white.

Then this shouldn't be a big deal.

If something is taking a serious toll on your mental health, you need to cut it out. I have friends that do the Fez thing, travel back to their families every holiday and birthday, even though their family makes them miserable. People have this understandable but unhealthy idea that just because they are family, you always have to keep them around, even when they're draining your happiness.

[KingModem]

I have seven nieces and nephews, and one son. Unfortunately it is not something I want to just pull away from.

It is tough to explain the whole dynamic on a messageboard, but there were definitely some replies on this thread that make a whole lot of sense and will help me through this.

Its sad that someone could be dying of cancer, losing their house, struggling to provide food for their family, but Religion is something that causes such emotional riffs. What a stupid thing to fuss about.

[Snacks]

Then this shouldn't be a big deal.

If something is taking a serious toll on your mental health, you need to cut it out. I have friends that do the Fez thing, travel back to their families every holiday and birthday, even though their family makes them miserable. People have this understandable but unhealthy idea that just because they are family, you always have to keep them around, even when they're draining your happiness.

couldnt agree 100% but it is easy said then done!

[underdog]

I have seven nieces and nephews, and one son. Unfortunately it is not something I want to just pull away from.

Ah, yeah, that makes it more difficult. Are they also very religious?

[KingModem]

Ah, yeah, that makes it more difficult. Are they also very religious?

Every last one of them.

[Willmore]

I have seven nieces and nephews, and one son. Unfortunately it is not something I want to just pull away from.

It is tough to explain the whole dynamic on a messageboard, but there were definitely some replies on this thread that make a whole lot of sense and will help me through this.

Its sad that someone could be dying of cancer, losing their house, struggling to provide food for their family, but Religion is something that causes such emotional riffs. What a stupid thing to fuss about.

As I was scrolling, I read: "I have seven inches"

[hanso]

Nothing should be forced on others. And I think this aspect comes from some religious principle.

Yet in a big showing of hypocrisy. Religion itself does just this to large extents. (this factor draws me away not to it's teachings).


Not only is this done to recruit. It is also done to impose their views on others.

This ranks high on my list why I keep a distance from those that practice these actions.

[underdog]

Every last one of them.

Ooof.

I'd say suck it up, don't announce your atheism to them and just deal with their awful religion a couple times a year. Them being religious seems to be much less of a deal to you than you being an atheist will be to them. Just lie and go with the flow. It won't cause any serious drama and you can laugh at them in your head.

[StanUpshaw]

Just don't throw around the "A" word. It's a stake through a mom's heart.

[Tenbatsuzen]

Just don't throw around the "A" word. It's a stake through a mom's heart.

right. Saying that you have lost your faith is a lot softer than saying you're an atheist.

[Snacks]

Ooof.

I'd say suck it up, don't announce your atheism to them and just deal with their awful religion a couple times a year. Them being religious seems to be much less of a deal to you than you being an atheist will be to them. Just lie and go with the flow. It won't cause any serious drama and you can laugh at them in your head.

I disagree speak the truth and dont hide your beliefs. Why is it ok for others to spew their religious crap and not hide what they believe but non believers are supposed to stay quiet to keep everyone happy? Maybe if more people spoke up more people would start to follow their lead and more and more people wouldnt be afraid to admit they dont believe in god or jesus or whatever!

If it hurts your family then they have to deal with it. You had to live through the shit of being forced to learn a religion that you truly never believed in. It amazes me how many people say just hide or lie about who you are to protect you parents. I think its fucked up that you cant be truthful about yourself and in the long run you can only make you happy. You cant worry about them because you cant control them. Be honest and take it from there!

[spoon]

just tell them ur gay and found a new God and his name is Anal

[StanUpshaw]

right. Saying that you have lost your faith is a lot softer than saying you're an atheist.

Can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, but it's true. "Atheist" is a loaded word, and it's a lot easier to accept "I just don't feel it anymore" or something in that vein.

[spoon]

i think my idea is the least destructive overall...unless you have ibs

[underdog]

I disagree speak the truth and dont hide your beliefs. Why is it ok for others to spew their religious crap and not hide what they believe but non believers are supposed to stay quiet to keep everyone happy? Maybe if more people spoke up more people would start to follow their lead and more and more people wouldnt be afraid to admit they dont believe in god or jesus or whatever!

If it hurts your family then they have to deal with it. You had to live through the shit of being forced to learn a religion that you truly never believed in. It amazes me how many people say just hide or lie about who you are to protect you parents. I think its fucked up that you cant be truthful about yourself and in the long run you can only make you happy. You cant worry about them because you cant control them. Be honest and take it from there!

Eh, to me it's like someone being REALLY into something and me not caring about it at all. I'll just pretend I like it if me not liking it will really bother them. Their caring about it and the act of me pretending I like it is easier than me explaining or arguing about why I don't care about it. It's easier than the stupid drama it would create, for basically no reason. Pick your poisons, so to speak.

[keithy_19]

Eh, to me it's like someone being REALLY into something and me not caring about it at all. I'll just pretend I like it if me not liking it will really bother them. Their caring about it and the act of me pretending I like it is easier than me explaining or arguing about why I don't care about it. It's easier than the stupid drama it would create, for basically no reason. Pick your poisons, so to speak.

I agree with this.

[spoon]

just tell them ur gay and found a new God and his name is Anal

I agree with this.

Thanks Keithy!

[keithy_19]

Thanks Keithy!

It's like we've bonded over the past few days.

[spoon]

just tell them ur gay and found a new God and his name is Anal

It's like we've bonded over the past few days.

Is it bc I'm not a female?

[keithy_19]

Is it bc I'm not a female?

If you were a female I would naturally mistake our bonding with you possibly liking me.

So...do you?

[sailor]

much like the other coming out of the closet, why do you need to discuss it with them in any manner? do you feel the need to come out to them that you don't use the laundry detergent you used to use when you lived at home?

[landarch]

It's possible that if done correctly (and who knows what 'correctly' really is, I guess it's 100% different for every situation) you might find that you have a bit more support than you realize. I grew up in the buckle of the Bible belt; Southern Baptists everywhere. Pretty strict protestant family. A lifetime of one inundation from one particular church, and all that. Although I went to college in my hometown, I still began gradually removing myself from their sunday rituals. Imagine their surprise and disgust when I eventually met my future wife and told them she was Catholic (The "C word" of the south) and I would be going to church with her from now on. Fast forward a year or so and almost all of them were at my confirmation ceremony. They hated it at first but generally realized in time it wasn't something worth losing a family member over.

Now fifteen years later no one ever brings it up and if they do, it carries no more importance in the conversation than the color shirt I happen to be wearing. They are still the same strictly protestant bible beating southerners and I am still their son/grandson/nephew.

Good luck to you in this whole endeavor. I know your situation is a bit more intense than the one I described. If it were me I wouldn't ruin Christmas with it, maybe New Years or MLK Weekend, but not Christmas. That's just mean.

[Crispy123]

At least your family cares about you, even if your beliefs in spiritual matters differs. I can understand wanting to pull away from any organization that doesn't allow people to ask questions or entertain differing viewpoints. It usually means something isn't kosher.

I agree with land in that maybe wait until after Christmas. Only because you are asking them to respect your belief and if you wait, you are showing respect to their belief in Christmas.

Good luck KM. I respect your right to believe anything you want but please keep in mind it takes the same effort and amount of faith to say there is NO God as it does to say there is A God.

[Tenbatsuzen]

Can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, but it's true. "Atheist" is a loaded word, and it's a lot easier to accept "I just don't feel it anymore" or something in that vein.

no, I wasn't. Saying that you're an atheist to someone who is hardcore religious is akin to saying you worship the devil. Saying you've lost your faith to someone who is religious implies that you can still be "saved". The former option makes a person hostile, the latter option makes them sympathetic.

[Snacks]

It's possible that if done correctly (and who knows what 'correctly' really is, I guess it's 100% different for every situation) you might find that you have a bit more support than you realize. I grew up in the buckle of the Bible belt; Southern Baptists everywhere. Pretty strict protestant family. A lifetime of one inundation from one particular church, and all that. Although I went to college in my hometown, I still began gradually removing myself from their sunday rituals. Imagine their surprise and disgust when I eventually met my future wife and told them she was Catholic (The "C word" of the south) and I would be going to church with her from now on. Fast forward a year or so and almost all of them were at my confirmation ceremony. They hated it at first but generally realized in time it wasn't something worth losing a family member over.

Now fifteen years later no one ever brings it up and if they do, it carries no more importance in the conversation than the color shirt I happen to be wearing. They are still the same strictly protestant bible beating southerners and I am still their son/grandson/nephew.

Good luck to you in this whole endeavor. I know your situation is a bit more intense than the one I described. If it were me I wouldn't ruin Christmas with it, maybe New Years or MLK Weekend, but not Christmas. That's just mean.

so one Christian religion thinking another Christian religion is bad or hating it? odd isnt it? they both believe in Jesus and are both Christian. other then some saints and few other small differences why would any person care?

[sailor]

so one Christian religion thinking another Christian religion is bad or hating it? odd isnt it? they both believe in Jesus and are both Christian. other then some saints and few other small differences why would any person care?

That's probably a large part of why they got over it so quickly. It's also odd to me how some religions are more open to other sects. My friend's dad is an episcopal priest and my school friends were at his church for a funeral; he said they had no problem with the Catholics receiving communion. Seemed improper to me, so I didn't, but a lot did.

[landarch]

so one Christian religion thinking another Christian religion is bad or hating it? odd isnt it? they both believe in Jesus and are both Christian. other then some saints and few other small differences why would any person care?

To most of the people whom I grew up with, meaning family, friends, peers, old ladies in Wal Mart, whoever, Catholic isn't Christian, not by a long shot. I mention WalMart because that's where I was working when a lady from my childhood church came up to me and mentioned that she hadn't seen me around church lately. "Yeah I've been going to St. John's with my girlfriend".

"Now you know better than that" she said. Probably had never been in a Catholic Church nor knew anyone who had. I was as good as dead to her from then on.

My longtime high school girlfriend had a similar reaction, right there in the motor oil aisle of Wal Mart (it was a really small town and I worked a lot) "I have to go...." she said, and promptly left. We had a civil friendship until then. We haven't spoken since, and that is the primary reason for it.

I can remember riding by St. John's every Sunday and asking my mom why they didn't have to dress like a fashion show to go to church like we did, rather they could just dress like normal people. "That's not really so much a church there" or something similarly inane was the only response. Again, she had never been inside there nor knew anyone who had. When it came time for me to break free from that nonsense, I researched it and liked what I saw, to the chagrin of nearly everyone I had ever known. North Mississippi is a strange and awful place if you're not one of "them". I thank my wife every chance I get for pulling me out of there.

[Furtherman]

do you feel the need to come out to them that you don't use the laundry detergent you used to use when you lived at home?

Oh my god, he's a Tideist!!!

[DOHO@HOME]

I'm having a blast with my family and friends who believe in this God bullshit.
Busting their believe's and showing how foolish it sound's.
I would go home and try to make as uncomfortable as it can be during this time of year.
Then next year they won't want you to come home.

[disneyspy]

I'm having a blast with my family and friends who believe in this God bullshit.
Busting their believe's and showing how foolish it sound's.
I would go home and try to make as uncomfortable as it can be during this time of year.
Then next year they won't want you to come home.

you dont believe that theres something greater than yourself?

and that thing can not be called God?

[sailor]

Oh my god, he's a Tideist!!!

Roll tide!

[Snacks]

To most of the people whom I grew up with, meaning family, friends, peers, old ladies in Wal Mart, whoever, Catholic isn't Christian, not by a long shot. I mention WalMart because that's where I was working when a lady from my childhood church came up to me and mentioned that she hadn't seen me around church lately. "Yeah I've been going to St. John's with my girlfriend".

"Now you know better than that" she said. Probably had never been in a Catholic Church nor knew anyone who had. I was as good as dead to her from then on.

My longtime high school girlfriend had a similar reaction, right there in the motor oil aisle of Wal Mart (it was a really small town and I worked a lot) "I have to go...." she said, and promptly left. We had a civil friendship until then. We haven't spoken since, and that is the primary reason for it.

I can remember riding by St. John's every Sunday and asking my mom why they didn't have to dress like a fashion show to go to church like we did, rather they could just dress like normal people. "That's not really so much a church there" or something similarly inane was the only response. Again, she had never been inside there nor knew anyone who had. When it came time for me to break free from that nonsense, I researched it and liked what I saw, to the chagrin of nearly everyone I had ever known. North Mississippi is a strange and awful place if you're not one of "them". I thank my wife every chance I get for pulling me out of there.

Catholics created Christianity? Every other Christian religion is something that branched off of the Catholics to create their own rules beliefs.

Even more reason why all religion is ridiculous and get away with being cults!

[Snacks]

I'm having a blast with my family and friends who believe in this God bullshit.
Busting their believe's and showing how foolish it sound's.
I would go home and try to make as uncomfortable as it can be during this time of year.
Then next year they won't want you to come home.

Thats funny but kind of fucked up! Dont force your beliefs on them just as you dont want their forced on you. But if and when they make you feel like an ass for your beliefs then destroy theirs and bring them to tears!!! lol


you dont believe that theres something greater than yourself?

and that thing can not be called God?

NO!

[Snacks]

Roll tide!

that made me laugh so hard. I love that commercial!

[IamFogHat]

Mine found out cause it was on my Facebook and my cousins told them. Then they promptly went into denial mode.

[landarch]

Catholics created Christianity? Every other Christian religion is something that branched off of the Catholics to create their own rules beliefs.

Even more reason why all religion is ridiculous and get away with being cults!

Yeah, and the church I was raised in was started by some guy for some reason (I really used to know the specifics--but had to find them on my own) in the Midwest in 1858. "What made him more right than the guy across the street preaching something different?" was my first question. Then I started referring to many preachers as "salesmen". Maybe it wasn't such a surprise to my family when I left.......

[Fugitive]

Is everyone in the world (with enough intelligence to understand it) either RELIGIOUS, AGNOSTIC, or ATHEISTIC? Are those the only 3 possible categories?

I refuse to accept it.

Where would SKEPTIC fall within that?

Where would SCIENTIST fall within that?

Isn't the whole worry over this because of accepting somebody else's paradigm that you have some kind of "status" because of thoughts in your mind that you can't control?

[StanUpshaw]

Is everyone in the world (with enough intelligence to understand it) either RELIGIOUS, AGNOSTIC, or ATHEISTIC? Are those the only 3 possible categories?

I refuse to accept it.

Where would SKEPTIC fall within that?

Where would SCIENTIST fall within that?

Isn't the whole worry over this because of accepting somebody else's paradigm that you have some kind of "status" because of thoughts in your mind that you can't control?

Who is saying there are only three categories?!

Doesn't every new age gaylord call themselves "spiritual"? And what does being a scientist connote about one's beliefs?

[keithy_19]

Who is saying there are only three categories?!

Doesn't every new age gaylord call themselves "spiritual"? And what does being a scientist connote about one's beliefs?

Some of us are not gaylords. We simply like to cover all bases.

Though the other day I went into one of those new age/crystal/tarot card reading shops. They had me pick a tarot card and I came up with the wealth one. Funny, cause I had lost my job days ago.

So I kind of think the universe is laughing at me.

[booster11373]

Some of us are not gaylords. We simply like to cover all bases.

Though the other day I went into one of those new age/crystal/tarot card reading shops. They had me pick a tarot card and I came up with the wealth one. Funny, cause I had lost my job days ago.

So I kind of think the universe is laughing at me.

I cant decide if this is the funniest or saddest thing I have read in a while

[sailor]

Some of us are not gaylords. We simply like to cover all bases.

Though the other day I went into one of those new age/crystal/tarot card reading shops. They had me pick a tarot card and I came up with the wealth one. Funny, cause I had lost my job days ago.

So I kind of think the universe is laughing at me.

so gaylord

[Fugitive]

Who is saying there are only three categories?!

Doesn't every new age gaylord call themselves "spiritual"? And what does being a scientist connote about one's beliefs?

What I'm saying is, the NUMBER of categories doesn't matter, it's the categories themselves that are illusionary paradigms. Personally, I think the label "spiritual" is either an attempt to defraud others (in the case of a New Age guru) or to put up a defense mechanism to protect the conscience of someone who's been raised in a belief system, but is having trouble defending it to themselves (in the case of "casual" believers).

Being a scientist connotes EVERYTHING about beliefs. Asking any human if he "believes," based on some revelation or ancient text that he's leafed through, is akin to asking a dog his views on Kant based on eating a bowl of Alpo.

Science is a METHOD for coming to a consensus on reality, and Christianity and Atheism, viewed within the realm of science, are descriptive hypotheses about the nature of reality -- subject to proof or disproof based on analysis of data.

[StanUpshaw]

What I'm saying is, the NUMBER of categories doesn't matter, it's the categories themselves that are illusionary paradigms. Personally, I think the label "spiritual" is either an attempt to defraud others (in the case of a New Age guru) or to put up a defense mechanism to protect the conscience of someone who's been raised in a belief system, but is having trouble defending it to themselves (in the case of "casual" believers).

Being a scientist connotes EVERYTHING about beliefs. Asking any human if he "believes," based on some revelation or ancient text that he's leafed through, is akin to asking a dog his views on Kant based on eating a bowl of Alpo.

Science is a METHOD for coming to a consensus on reality, and Christianity and Atheism, viewed within the realm of science, are descriptive hypotheses about the nature of reality -- subject to proof or disproof based on analysis of data.

I don't know what's any more illusionary about religion compared to any other intangible philosophical concept. Ethics, aesthetics, love...any of those ethereal "human condition" categories...there is nothing concrete or particularly rational about them, but everyone accepts them, accepts their definitions, and generally respond to them in a very limited variety of ways. Religion is no different.



And are you saying that it's impossible for a scientist to be religious? Or is a professed religious scientist just not a true scientist? Or are you just differentiating someone employed in the sciences, colloquially known as a "scientist" from someone who purely lives by your rigid definition...a "Scientist"?

[keithy_19]

I cant decide if this is the funniest or saddest thing I have read in a while

Go with funny. It'll help me sleep at night.

But in honesty, I don't know what I believe. I went to church till I was 18 and now I never go. I read the Bible sometimes, but it's more of a thing where the teachings of Jesus are comforting, regardless if he was God incarnate or not.

[sailor]

I don't know what's any more illusionary about religion compared to any other intangible philosophical concept. Ethics, aesthetics, love...any of those ethereal "human condition" categories...there is nothing concrete or particularly rational about them, but everyone accepts them, accepts their definitions, and generally respond to them in a very limited variety of ways. Religion is no different.



And are you saying that it's impossible for a scientist to be religious? Or is a professed religious scientist just not a true scientist? Or are you just differentiating someone employed in the sciences, colloquially known as a "scientist" from someone who purely lives by your rigid definition...a "Scientist"?

it reads like he means it to be big S Scientist.

[keithy_19]

Pages filled cover the floor all covered up with ink
Words written over coffee document my struggling
Those mornings spent sitting alone mourning alone in grief
For all I killed in search of honesty

See I used to be a mustard seed shouting at the mountain
I used to hang my head when it stayed far from the ocean
I used to claim its failure and from the depths of depression
I cried to god but god did not respond

Like a barrel chested strongman I suspended disbelief
I held it high over my head though all the weight was staggering
But legs buckled and muscles burned, in came gravity
I dropped it all, faced what I'd been avoiding

For many years I walked that road, for many years I tried
So earnestly I sought the relationship advertised
But my empty hands, my empty heart, could no longer be denied
Yeah I quit, I forfeit eternal life

I did not take inheritance when I left to go away
I did what was commanded when that rich man asked to be saved
I left my friends my family behind all for heaven's sake
I am no prodigal and this is no mistake

So I'm sorry mom I'm sorry dad, I really want you to be proud
Don't want to disappoint you all, don't want to let you down
But I have stopped searching for truth hiding behind heaven's cloud
Don't save my place, of this race I do bow out

[KingModem]

So I carried out my plan.

We went to church Xmas eve, as was planned. Then came Sunday morning when my family wanted to go to regular church service. We didn't go, and when my family came back, they were visibly upset.

My sister pulled me and my girl into a room, and started balling. She was mad at me for accepting the role of her daughter's sponsor at her baptism 3 years ago if I knew that I wasn't religious anymore. I dodged it by saying that I wasn't sure then, and I wasn't ready to come out to the family that I wasn't religious.

It ended with me saying how ridiculous it was that she couldn't find a replacement for me in her spiritual quest, but I also said I would not step aside for her in her "everything else" life.

Once we escaped from the bedroom, I found my mother with her face buried in her hands balling on the couch. She was absolutely inconsolable.

Either way, I didn't make my sister and my mother cry, their religion did. I haven't felt this relieved in a long time.

I want to give a huge thank you to this forum for the support, and giving me the confidence to carry through with my plan. Everyone one of you were instrumental in pushing me in the right and proper direction.

[underdog]

So I carried out my plan.

We went to church Xmas eve, as was planned. Then came Sunday morning when my family wanted to go to regular church service. We didn't go, and when my family came back, they were visibly upset.

My sister pulled me and my girl into a room, and started balling. She was mad at me for accepting the role of her daughter's sponsor at her baptism 3 years ago if I knew that I wasn't religious anymore. I dodged it by saying that I wasn't sure then, and I wasn't ready to come out to the family that I wasn't religious.

It ended with me saying how ridiculous it was that she couldn't find a replacement for me in her spiritual quest, but I also said I would not step aside for her in her "everything else" life.

Once we escaped from the bedroom, I found my mother with her face buried in her hands balling on the couch. She was absolutely inconsolable.

Either way, I didn't make my sister and my mother cry, their religion did. I haven't felt this relieved in a long time.

I want to give a huge thank you to this forum for the support, and giving me the confidence to carry through with my plan. Everyone one of you were instrumental in pushing me in the right and proper direction.

Yikes. That sounds like a nightmare.

[Snacks]

So I carried out my plan.

We went to church Xmas eve, as was planned. Then came Sunday morning when my family wanted to go to regular church service. We didn't go, and when my family came back, they were visibly upset.

My sister pulled me and my girl into a room, and started balling. She was mad at me for accepting the role of her daughter's sponsor at her baptism 3 years ago if I knew that I wasn't religious anymore. I dodged it by saying that I wasn't sure then, and I wasn't ready to come out to the family that I wasn't religious.

It ended with me saying how ridiculous it was that she couldn't find a replacement for me in her spiritual quest, but I also said I would not step aside for her in her "everything else" life.

Once we escaped from the bedroom, I found my mother with her face buried in her hands balling on the couch. She was absolutely inconsolable.

Either way, I didn't make my sister and my mother cry, their religion did. I haven't felt this relieved in a long time.

I want to give a huge thank you to this forum for the support, and giving me the confidence to carry through with my plan. Everyone one of you were instrumental in pushing me in the right and proper direction.

good for you and happy you felt it was the right thing you needed to do for you!

I have a similar thing happen to me. My brother asked me to be the godfather to my nephew. Now at that time I wasnt completely over the fence of losing religion but I was almost there. Now im still his uncle, the fact that you put god parent title to someone means dick. I know plenty of god parents who do nothing for their god children and some that they dont even speak to. All that matters is that you are there for them when they need you. No matter what the title is there will always be some people you can count on and some you cant. Thats life and God or religion has nothing to do with it!

Did they start sending the religious emails yet to get you back?!

[landarch]

I agree with Underdog that is sounds like a nightmare, but am glad for you that the steps have been taken for you to movoe forward with this. Maybe in time your relationship will be better with them overall, the whole honesty thing and all.

[CountryBob]

So I carried out my plan.

We went to church Xmas eve, as was planned. Then came Sunday morning when my family wanted to go to regular church service. We didn't go, and when my family came back, they were visibly upset.

My sister pulled me and my girl into a room, and started balling. She was mad at me for accepting the role of her daughter's sponsor at her baptism 3 years ago if I knew that I wasn't religious anymore. I dodged it by saying that I wasn't sure then, and I wasn't ready to come out to the family that I wasn't religious.

It ended with me saying how ridiculous it was that she couldn't find a replacement for me in her spiritual quest, but I also said I would not step aside for her in her "everything else" life.

Once we escaped from the bedroom, I found my mother with her face buried in her hands balling on the couch. She was absolutely inconsolable.

Either way, I didn't make my sister and my mother cry, their religion did. I haven't felt this relieved in a long time.

I want to give a huge thank you to this forum for the support, and giving me the confidence to carry through with my plan. Everyone one of you were instrumental in pushing me in the right and proper direction.

Proud of you doing what you felt was right. Your family should believe in you instead of your faith in what they believe. My Grand used to say that she was worried that I wouldnt be in heaven when I died because she wouldnt be able to see me again. I told her let's not worry about the IF, lets have fun and live it up today instead! BTW... I believe that there is somewhat of a heaven and I do believe that Jesus Crist walked this earth and died on the cross for our sins. BUT, I dont go to church, dont envolve my life as a christian either. If I dont go to heaven when I die then so be it. And I wont condemn anyone either way. Be true to yourself and use the best gift God has given us - CHOICE.

[Fugitive]

I don't know what's any more illusionary about religion compared to any other intangible philosophical concept. Ethics, aesthetics, love...any of those ethereal "human condition" categories...there is nothing concrete or particularly rational about them, but everyone accepts them, accepts their definitions, and generally respond to them in a very limited variety of ways. Religion is no different.



And are you saying that it's impossible for a scientist to be religious? Or is a professed religious scientist just not a true scientist? Or are you just differentiating someone employed in the sciences, colloquially known as a "scientist" from someone who purely lives by your rigid definition...a "Scientist"?

I don't know what's any LESS illusionary about religion than other intangible philosophical concepts.

At one time EVERYONE SEEMED TO ACCEPT that there "wasn't a cough in a carload" of Camel cigarettes, but a good many of them died of lung cancer and heart disease while hacking up blood.

The difference between science and religion is the same as the difference between science and creationism. One (science) proceeds from data to conclusions, leaving the door open to change the conclusion if evidence is found that fits into an understandable framework. The other (creationism) BEGINS at conclusions and tries to jimmy every piece of evidence, conflicting or not, into place so that the initial conclusion can be justified. And--the door to new conclusions is LOCKED by the mental refusal to accept competing paradigms.

Whether or not a scientist can be religious is up to the individual scientist. Many believe Einstein was religous, but if you read his quotations carefully, he defined "God" in such a cosmic sense that it would not be recognizable to most Christian church-goers--he seems to have conceived of God as a "force" or some such Star Wars type concept.

[hanso]

Next test.
Try to drink while reading the Bible. See if you get buzzed/drunk.

[thepaulo]

You'll probably burn in hellfire for this.

[DonInNC]

So I carried out my plan.
.
Wow. Hope you can work through things with your family.

[Melk]

That reminds me of the Thanksgiving where my friend came out to his mother. He called me after the holiday and said, "It wasn't too bad, she only cried for two days." That was easily the funniest and saddest thing he ever said to me.

Anyway, I am happy things worked out for you (thus far)

[Kris10]

Really? This was something to cry about? I don't get it... you're not dead. Well, maybe now you are in their eyes but I just don't get how people can get so wrapped up in religion.

Glad you "came out" and voiced your opinion. Your girlfriend must have been pretty uncomfortable.

[StanUpshaw]

I don't know what's any LESS illusionary about religion than other intangible philosophical concepts.

At one time EVERYONE SEEMED TO ACCEPT that there "wasn't a cough in a carload" of Camel cigarettes, but a good many of them died of lung cancer and heart disease while hacking up blood.

The difference between science and religion is the same as the difference between science and creationism. One (science) proceeds from data to conclusions, leaving the door open to change the conclusion if evidence is found that fits into an understandable framework. The other (creationism) BEGINS at conclusions and tries to jimmy every piece of evidence, conflicting or not, into place so that the initial conclusion can be justified. And--the door to new conclusions is LOCKED by the mental refusal to accept competing paradigms.

Whether or not a scientist can be religious is up to the individual scientist. Many believe Einstein was religous, but if you read his quotations carefully, he defined "God" in such a cosmic sense that it would not be recognizable to most Christian church-goers--he seems to have conceived of God as a "force" or some such Star Wars type concept.


:wallbash:

A discussion regarding the concept of religion devolves into a critique of the content of religion?! Who could have seen that coming?!!!?

Still batting 1.000, eh Spoon?

[spoon]

:wallbash:

A discussion regarding the concept of religion devolves into a critique of the content of religion?! Who could have seen that coming?!!!?

Still batting 1.000, eh Spoon?

First off, I had nothing to do with this one as I told him to say he's gay.

Second, what you call a devolving critique I call plenty topical. Why does it offend you so much? Over this whole thread it has been discussed in many different ways, some passionately others with clear disdain. It's their take on the topic and its impact on KingModem or themselves. I see nothing wrong or over the top insensitive here with The Fugitive's post.

[StanUpshaw]

First off, I had nothing to do with this one as I told him to say he's gay.

I know. I just figured if I started talking about how awesome my ideas are and how I'm always right, that before long you would try to convince me otherwise, and that we should just get it out of the way sooner rather than later.

Second, what you call a devolving critique I call plenty topical. Why does it offend you so much? Over this whole thread it has been discussed in many different ways, some passionately others with clear disdain. It's their take on the topic and its impact on KingModem or themselves. I see nothing wrong or over the top insensitive here with The Fugitive's post.

Topical to the thread, perhaps, but not in regard to the derail that Fugitive and I were on. At least, I didn't think it was. I was under the impression that his concern was more to do with the philosophy of religion, rather than with belief itself. I guess I should remember the sort that I'm dealing with here :smoke:.

So if there's any sense in which I'm "offended," it would only be that I was once again deprived of an intellectual opponent worthy of my attention. http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll264/arbiter100/stuff/emot-smug.gif

[spoon]

There is a HUGE difference between an intellectual conversation and throwing a hissy fit bc something doesn't fit ur standards or rules with staying on topic. I truly don't care one way or the other, but what you call devolving conversation I once again see no problem with. It's a message board and religion/family was at the core of KM's issue. So people went off on a little tangent, who cares? If you can't find an "intellectual opponent worthy of your attention" on this, perhaps it's because the your discussion is trite at best.

[hanso]

The troll list works wonders.

[Fugitive]

It's really not an argument anyway, because I don't rule anything out at this point. But I'm not going to throw in calling myself an atheist or agnostic, that's just something somebody else wants to set up that I have nothing to do with. In that sense it IS a trivial conversation--I agree with that.

That's the whole point, really. If somebody claims greater knowledge than me, I ask to see the credentials or the path that got them to it. Four answers are going to come back at the top of the hit parade--1) revelation was given to me, 2) revelation was given to somebody else and written in "The Book," 3) pray about it and the truth will be revealed, and finally, 4) the answer is inside you, just admit it.

The Big Four doesn't carry it for me. I guess it's because I'm NOT WORTHY.

http://www.intersectionofonlineandoffline.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/were-not-worthy.jpg