Just a reminder for those who hate unions...

[CurseoftheBambi]

http://thinkprogress.org/2011/03/05/top-five-things-unions/

Over the past few weeks, right-wing legislators have unleashed a torrent of radical legislation upon the American electorate designed to gut collective bargaining rights and attack the middle class. As these conservatives have launched their assault, a Main Street Movement consisting of ordinary Americans fed up with living in such an unequal country has fought back.

Conservatives have sought to malign this movement by claiming that it is simply defending the parochial interests of labor unions, who they claim are imposing huge costs on taxpayers with little benefit. Yet the truth is that America’s public and private unions have been one of the major forces in building a robust and vibrant middle class and have fought over the past century to improve the lives of all Americans in a variety of ways. ThinkProgress has assembled just five of the many things that Americans can thank the nation’s unions for giving us all:

1. Unions Gave Us The Weekend: Even the ultra-conservative Mises Institute notes that the relatively labor-free 1870, the average workweek for most Americans was 61 hours — almost double what most Americans work now. Yet in the late nineteenth century and the twentieth century, labor unions engaged in massive strikes in order to demand shorter workweeks so that Americans could be home with their loved ones instead of constantly toiling for their employers with no leisure time. By 1937, these labor actions created enough political momentum to pass the Fair Labor Standards Act, which helped create a federal framework for a shorter workweek that included room for leisure time.

2. Unions Gave Us Fair Wages And Relative Income Equality: As ThinkProgress reported earlier in the week, the relative decline of unions over the past 35 years has mirrored a decline in the middle class’s share of national income. It is also true that at the time when most Americans belonged to a union — a period of time between the 1940′s and 1950′s — income inequality in the U.S. was at its lowest point in the history of the country.

3. Unions Helped End Child Labor: “Union organizing and child labor reform were often intertwined” in U.S. history, with organization’s like the “National Consumers’ League” and the National Child Labor Committee” working together in the early 20th century to ban child labor. The very first American Federation of Labor (AFL) national convention passed “a resolution calling on states to ban children under 14 from all gainful employment” in 1881, and soon after states across the country adopted similar recommendations, leading up to the 1938 Fair Labor Standards Act which regulated child labor on the federal level for the first time.

4. Unions Won Widespread Employer-Based Health Coverage: “The rise of unions in the 1930′s and 1940′s led to the first great expansion of health care” for all Americans, as labor unions banded workers together to negotiate for health coverage plans from employers. In 1942, “the US set up a National War Labor Board. It had the power to set a cap on all wage increases. But it let employers circumvent the cap by offering “fringe benefits” – notably, health insurance.” By 1950, “half of all companies with fewer than 250 workers and two-thirds of all companies with more than 250 workers offered health insurance of one kind or another.”

5. Unions Spearheaded The Fight For The Family And Medical Leave Act: Labor unions like the AFL-CIO federation led the fight for this 1993 law, which “requires state agencies and private employers with more than 50 employees to provide up to 12 weeks of job-protected unpaid leave annually for workers to care for a newborn, newly adopted child, seriously ill family member or for the worker’s own illness.”

[Dude!]

so what

Hitler brought inflation
under control in Germany

[underdog]

You have no one else to blame but yourself for what is aboot to happen.

[Jujubees2]

so what

Hitler brought inflation
under control in Germany

Wow, great comparison Dude!

[Dude!]

Wow, great comparison Dude!

yes, it was a great example
of how bad people do
some good things

[TripleSkeet]

Unions are like religion. A great idea completely abused by bad people for their own benefit.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

From the patron saint of Progressives, who BTW had qualityliving arrangements for 120K Japanese American families



"... Meticulous attention should be paid to the special relationships and obligations of public servants to the public itself and to the government. All Government employees should realize that the process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service. It has its distinct and insurmountable limitations ... The very nature and purposes of Government make it impossible for ... officials ... to bind the employer ... The employer is the whole people, who speak by means of laws enacted by their representatives ...

"Particularly, I want to emphasize my conviction that militant tactics have no place in the functions of any organization of government employees. Upon employees in the federal service rests the obligation to serve the whole people ... This obligation is paramount ... A strike of public employees manifests nothing less than an intent ... to prevent or obstruct ... Government ... Such action, looking toward the paralysis of Government ... is unthinkable and intolerable."

[underdog]

http://media.schadenfreude.net/2009/06/hitler-cat.jpg

[Furtherman]

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRhU_cRwvHRdkRnsV9HBxlbfNhEZar_K lj2b1LhXOki2dlcMcTG&t=1

[underdog]

http://www.headinjurytheater.com/images/oc%20donald%20as%20a%20nazi.jpg

[Furtherman]

http://img3.visualizeus.com/thumbs/09/08/05/cartoon,nazi-0991afe60b11a4d0a74ea754d52dd8a1_m.jpg

[CurseoftheBambi]

Unions are like religion. A great idea completely abused by bad people for their own benefit. just like congress, SCOTUS, Office of president. (at times)

[StanUpshaw]

or Fuhrer?

[Bob Impact]

I like the fact that they can't claim much outside of "a part" of the FMLA after the 50s.

50 years worth of suckin' the country dry.

[burrben]

Unions are like religion. A great idea completely abused by bad people for their own benefit.

just like congress, SCOTUS, Office of president. (at times)

and communism

[spoon]

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRhU_cRwvHRdkRnsV9HBxlbfNhEZar_K lj2b1LhXOki2dlcMcTG&t=1

what a cutie!

reminds me of the pics I posted for BDC in the yankee thread

cuties galore!

[jonyrotn]

what a cutie!

reminds me of the pics I posted for BDC in the yankee thread

cuties galore!
Fag.

[A.J.]

so what

Hitler brought inflation
under control in Germany

And Mussolini made the trains run on time!

[WRESTLINGFAN]

And Mussolini made the trains run on time!

Ungrateful Italians

http://home.comcast.net/~lowe9101/mussolini/images/other1.jpg

[JimBeam]

Even if unions were responsible for getting us all of those things many of them are now into law and/or governed by best business practices.

There's no need to continue to support something just because it was good at one time.

Any system that rewards ineptitude based on seniority is clearly flawed.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I dont want anyone to collective bargain for me. Why should my salary be averaged along with someone less productive?

[Barnaby Jones]

Typical regressive response!!!

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Equal pay for equal work :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Typical progressive line

[Barnaby Jones]

Typical regressive response! Always just waiting for their messiah Ronaldo Paul to save the world!

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Typical regressive response! Always just waiting for their messiah Ronaldo Paul to save the world!

http://www.itsalreadysigned4u.com/shop/media/images/product_detail/rnl1.jpg

[Barnaby Jones]

Typical regressive response!!!

[WRESTLINGFAN]

http://www.beatsandbombs.com/wp-content/2009/07/broken-record-765056.jpg

[underdog]

http://www.beatsandbombs.com/wp-content/2009/07/broken-record-765056.jpg

http://ganjataz.com/general-bollocks/images/by-GT/forum-shitz/pot-kettle-black.jpg

[Furtherman]

Ironic.

[CountryBob]

My experience is with the coal industry and unions. The unions were important long ago when big companies shit on the employee but over the years, this industry is regulated by the state and federal government very well and the union is worthless.

[Dudeman]

My experience is with the coal industry and unions. The unions were important long ago when big companies shit on the employee but over the years, this industry is regulated by the state and federal government very well and the union is worthless.

but the same people who want to get rid of unions hate state and federal regulations even more- they are even more focused on removing regulations. a reasonable person would say lets keep those regulations that protect the workers and surrounding communities, and make sure they are properly enforced, but remove those that may be unnecessary or improperly enforced.

but those against regulation, for some reason, have unfortunately become unable to see both sides of the argument- they have dug in and feel need to not admit the need for any regulation, i guess for fear of appearing anything but 100% adamant about their position. also, they want to use the idea that the free market will do the regulation. and to some degree it may. but as you said, before the regulations, the "big companies shit on the employee." esp in a tough economy, the employee will have no choice but to work in the poor conditions- they can't say they will quit and go to another job.

[foodcourtdruide]

but the same people who want to get rid of unions hate state and federal regulations even more- they are even more focused on removing regulations. a reasonable person would say lets keep those regulations that protect the workers and surrounding communities, and make sure they are properly enforced, but remove those that may be unnecessary or improperly enforced.

but those against regulation, for some reason, have unfortunately become unable to see both sides of the argument- they have dug in and feel need to not admit the need for any regulation, i guess for fear of appearing anything but 100% adamant about their position. also, they want to use the idea that the free market will do the regulation. and to some degree it may. but as you said, before the regulations, the "big companies shit on the employee." esp in a tough economy, the employee will have no choice but to work in the poor conditions- they can't say they will quit and go to another job.

Also, the time between the free market "working itself out" and it actually being worked out could be a nightmare. This is such a flawed way of thinking, but for some reason a lot of people truly believe this.

[JimBeam]

My take on the free market aspect is if you're good at your job you'll be rewarded for it.

Why do you think companies like Microsoft, Apple and Google make billions of dollars while things run by unions like the Post Office ( possibly the DMV ? ) suck balls ?

Obviously you can't lump all union labor into one category as I'm sure some are very successful but most that we deal with any level of frquency are less than crisp as they would be if they were run privately.

[Dudeman]

Also, the time between the free market "working itself out" and it actually being worked out could be a nightmare. This is such a flawed way of thinking, but for some reason a lot of people truly believe this.

In some cases, yes the free market will do its job, but other cases it just can't.

One example- recently Salmonella was found in Skippy Peanut Butter prompting a recall (do your own google for citations.) The anti-regulation people would argue that the free market would put Skippy out of business once the salmonella was found (or at least force them to ultimately get their own regulation- without any input from a FDA.) But there are multiple problems with this course:
1. people would have to get sick before the problem was dealt with;
2. it assumes that we could trace the illnesses back to the skippy- if people are getting sick in different hospitals, in different cities, in different states, the connection may be very difficult to find;
3. ironically the backlash if the connection was made would really hurt Skippy and might result in people losing their jobs. the regulations, which anti-regulation people say doing nothing but hurt businesses and ultimately cost people their jobs, in this case may actually protect the company as a whole.

[underdog]

Why do you think companies like Microsoft, Apple and Google make billions of dollars while things run by unions like the Post Office ( possibly the DMV ? ) suck balls ?

This is the worst comparison I've ever seen.

You honestly think the unions are the problem with the post office not making money?!

[Dudeman]

My take on the free market aspect is if you're good at your job you'll be rewarded for it.

Why do you think companies like Microsoft, Apple and Google make billions of dollars while things run by unions like the Post Office ( possibly the DMV ? ) suck balls ?

Obviously you can't lump all union labor into one category as I'm sure some are very successful but most that we deal with any level of frquency are less than crisp as they would be if they were run privately.

Yes, competition and profit rewards for doing a good job are good things.

But, in some cases there are limitations. First, as I just wrote in the case of Salmonella in the Skippy peanut butter, the "backlash" of the free market sometimes (not always, just sometimes) works too slow or the connection from product to problem can't be easily deduced. Similarly, if a company has unsafe working conditions or is dumping harmful byproducts into the local soil or streams (I can provide examples if necessary), what can the workers or local people do? The free market people would say that everyone would learn about the bad practicies, adn stop using the company. However, that assumes that the consumers will know about those bad practices. It also assumes that the consumer (either an individual or more often another corporation) would want to go to another more ethical, but more expensive competitor. Secondly, some services just aren't meant for profit making- for example, child protective services (the government agencies that investigate child abuse and endangerment) aren't going to make money and bring in a profit. but i'd still hope a society would want that service.

if there are better, more efficient, more cost-effective ways of providing these services (post office, dmv, or any government service), lets get them! those who recognize and support good government social services want efficiency and cost-effectiveness as much as anyone- that way the good/necessary services are able to be better funded. but demonizing all government services, all regulation, and all unions without question is ultimately simplistic and childish. find the happy medium...

[foodcourtdruide]

This is the worst comparison I've ever seen.

You honestly think the unions are the problem with the post office not making money?!

Also, he picked 3 companies that are profitable. What about the 1000's of examples of things not run by unions that have failed?

[foodcourtdruide]

Yes, competition and profit rewards for doing a good job are good things.

But, in some cases there are limitations. First, as I just wrote in the case of Salmonella in the Skippy peanut butter, the "backlash" of the free market sometimes (not always, just sometimes) works too slow or the connection from product to problem can't be easily deduced. Similarly, if a company has unsafe working conditions or is dumping harmful byproducts into the local soil or streams (I can provide examples if necessary), what can the workers or local people do? The free market people would say that everyone would learn about the bad practicies, adn stop using the company. However, that assumes that the consumers will no about those bad practices. It also assumes that the consume (either an individual or more often another corporation) would want to go to another more ethical, but more expensive competitor. Secondly, some services just aren't meant for profit making- for example, child protective services (the government agencies that investigate child abuse and endangerment) aren't going to make money and bring in a profit. but i'd still hope a society would want that service.

if there are better, more efficient, more cost-effective ways of providing these services (post office, dmv, or any government service), lets get them! those who recognize and support good government social services want efficiency and cost-effectiveness as much as anyone- that way the good/necessary services are able to be better funded. but demonizing all government services, all regulation, and all unions without question is ultimately simplistic and childish. find the happy medium...

Churches can totally handle this.

[Furtherman]

Churches can totally handle this.

:laugh:

[WRESTLINGFAN]

This is the worst comparison I've ever seen.

You honestly think the unions are the problem with the post office not making money?!

Si senor

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Churches can totally handle this.

How about starting a new Federal bureaucracy. Thats always the most effiecent thing to do

:lol:



The Department of Recalls.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Also, he picked 3 companies that are profitable. What about the 1000's of examples of things not run by unions that have failed?

Do those 1000's of other companies receive bailouts by politicians to reward their handlers?


The biggest failure in which a union was a party to a major collapse will always burn in this countrys memory and we will never recoup the losses.



They made garbage like this

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7b/1973_Chevy_Vega_Ad.jpg

and now make garbage like this

http://gizbuy.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/chevy-volt-230mpg.jpg

[WRESTLINGFAN]

http://ganjataz.com/general-bollocks/images/by-GT/forum-shitz/pot-kettle-black.jpg

http://sheeats.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/pipe1.jpg

[Barnaby Jones]

Typical regressive rambling!!!!

[underdog]

Si senor

I already know you're retarded, I was surprised at Jim's response.

[foodcourtdruide]

Do those 1000's of other companies receive bailouts by politicians to reward their handlers?


The biggest failure in which a union was a party to a major collapse will always burn in this countrys memory and we will never recoup the losses.
:wallbash:


They made garbage like this

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7b/1973_Chevy_Vega_Ad.jpg

and now make garbage like this

http://gizbuy.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/chevy-volt-230mpg.jpg

I don't understand your point in bringing this up. I'm simply saying that linking union labor and the success of Microsoft/Google/Apple is a stretch. There are many other factors.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I already know you're retarded, I was surprised at Jim's response.

Retarded is, losing business to email, FedEx, UPS posting billions of dollars in losses, keep getting bailed out. and keeping thousands of post offices open and waiting until this year to close 2000 of them. Then again thats your typical guhb'mint business model and plan.

However establishing post offices is an enumarated power given to Congress so I would say ixnay to privatizing.

[underdog]

Then again thats your typical guhb'mint business model and plan.

WHY CAN'T YOU SPEAK LIKE A NORMAL FUCKING PERSON!? WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU?!

Jesus fucking christ. You're the worst person to ever post on this board. Seriously. You're fucking awful. Everything you post has to have some un-funny turn of phrase or bumper sticker attached to it. What the fuck is wrong with you?!

[WRESTLINGFAN]

WHY CAN'T YOU SPEAK LIKE A NORMAL FUCKING PERSON!? WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU?!

Jesus fucking christ. You're the worst person to ever post on this board. Seriously. You're fucking awful. Everything you post has to have some un-funny turn of phrase or bumper sticker attached to it. What the fuck is wrong with you?!

I want to see you go batshit insane next time someone says Rush Limpballs Teabagger or Sean Manatee like what has been posted before. Otherwise get over it already


BUMPER STICKER? Like this term hasnt been used over and over since 33AD

Jesus fucking christ.


Someone has a different opinion. Fox news is usually brought up. Bumper sticker for RF NET



And for the bumper sticker used constantly here and by the progressives. Hint it starts with an R and ends with T

[JimBeam]

This is the worst comparison I've ever seen.

You honestly think the unions are the problem with the post office not making money?!

It's not that they don't make money but the fact that they are ineffective mostly due to their workers.

If you let a company run the Post Office, w/o unions, and they could fire people that didn't make the cut, and hire/promote those that do it'd be an efficient operation.

[Barnaby Jones]

I want to see you go batshit insane next time someone says Rush Limpballs Teabagger or Sean Manatee like what has been posted before. Otherwise get over it already


BUMPER STICKER? Like this term hasnt been used over and over since 33AD

Jesus fucking christ.


Someone has a different opinion. Fox news is usually brought up. Bumper sticker for RF NET



And for the bumper sticker used constantly here and by the progressives. Hint it starts with an R and ends with T

Typical regressive fart!!!

[JimBeam]

Also, he picked 3 companies that are profitable. What about the 1000's of examples of things not run by unions that have failed?

But wouldn't you highlight how the best are doing it in order to show what works ?

Show me ANY union that does things better than either of the 3 companies I mentioned.

You'd rather say things are bad here and here than focus on what works ?

So the point is Circuit City failed and they weren't unionized ?

Are you saying a union would've kept Circuit City alive ?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I know you public sector union worshippers are going to go crazy over this but I must say it again. Company A goes out of Business, Its competitors A,B,C, still flourish.


Theres no competiting when it comes to government. Its basic economics. Collective bargaining for the public sector is extortion. The union bosses negotiate with the Politicians

[underdog]

It's not that they don't make money but the fact that they are ineffective mostly due to their workers.

If you let a company run the Post Office, w/o unions, and they could fire people that didn't make the cut, and hire/promote those that do it'd be an efficient operation.

Post Offices are INCREDIBLY understaffed. The misconceptions about the post office are amazing.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Post Offices are INCREDIBLY understaffed. The misconceptions about the post office are amazing.

Then why does the post office need to have branch offices in malls, airports etc. They are basically throwing money away on expensive rent They can use the staff there to work in the main ones

[foodcourtdruide]

But wouldn't you highlight how the best are doing it in order to show what works ?

Show me ANY union that does things better than either of the 3 companies I mentioned.

You'd rather say things are bad here and here than focus on what works ?

So the point is Circuit City failed and they weren't unionized ?

Are you saying a union would've kept Circuit City alive ?

I just don't think a unionization would have had enough of an impact on Circuit City to save it, or the 3 companies you mentioned to make them terrible.

I think there really isn't a correlation here.

[underdog]

Then why does the post office need to have branch offices in malls, airports etc. They are basically throwing money away on expensive rent They can use the staff there to work in the main ones

Bad management? Wanting to provide the general public with a decent service?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Bad management? Wanting to provide the general public with a decent service?

In any big city there is a main post office that is very close. Those extra mini offices are not needed.

Same thing for a lot of suburbs, anyone can find one within 5-10 min driving distance.

In the sticks, people can take advantage of going to stamps.com so a 30 min to the post office isn't needed

[underdog]

In any big city there is a main post office that is very close. Those extra mini offices are not needed.

Same thing for a lot of suburbs, anyone can find one within 5-10 min driving distance.

In the sticks, people can take advantage of going to stamps.com so a 30 min to the post office isn't needed

I'm not sure how this is union related.

[Barnaby Jones]

I know you public sector union worshippers

Typical regressive spin!!!

[keithy_19]

Maybe if ronfez.net had a union it wouldn't die.

[Syd]

Show me ANY union that does things better than either of the 3 companies I mentioned.

How do you measure "better than?" More money? Some people value things other than money and don't worship at the golden calf.

The point of the union is protecting workers and ensuring fair benefits for their production -- not having CEOs make almost 300x more than that of the average worker. Not having workers like those in the Phillipines who worked at AMD processor plants that were maimed or killed due to ineffective worker safety or using their market share to strangle society as Standard Oil did.

[Jujubees2]

Maybe if ronfez.net had a union it wouldn't die.

Union card number 35762 checking in!

[Bob Impact]

How do you measure "better than?" More money? Some people value things other than money and don't worship at the golden calf.

The point of the union is protecting workers and ensuring fair benefits for their production -- not having CEOs make almost 300x more than that of the average worker. Not having workers like those in the Phillipines who worked at AMD processor plants that were maimed or killed due to ineffective worker safety or using their market share to strangle society as Standard Oil did.

What exactly about forcing people to pay into a system they may or may not want into is fair? What about enforcing seniority over competence is fair?

[StanUpshaw]

I hate unions
I hate civil unions
I hate The Union
I hate the Union Jack
I hate the late 90s wrestling stable The Union

[WRESTLINGFAN]

How do you measure "better than?" More money? Some people value things other than money and don't worship at the golden calf.

The point of the union is protecting workers and ensuring fair benefits for their production -- not having CEOs make almost 300x more than that of the average worker. Not having workers like those in the Phillipines who worked at AMD processor plants that were maimed or killed due to ineffective worker safety or using their market share to strangle society as Standard Oil did.

Taking dues from them to go to a politician that they may not support

[Syd]

What exactly about forcing people to pay into a system they may or may not want into is fair? What about enforcing seniority over competence is fair?

What about forcing businesses to treat workers fairly? What about forcing businesses to ensure worker safety? What about keeping government from regulating businesses by allowing unions to keep them in check instead?

[StanUpshaw]

I'm interested to know what solutions you guys come up with to solve this issue...just shoot me a PM when you get to the bottom of it.

[underdog]

I want to see you go batshit insane next time someone says Rush Limpballs Teabagger or Sean Manatee like what has been posted before. Otherwise get over it already

I've never seen anyone use either of those terms.

Someone has a different opinion. Fox news is usually brought up. Bumper sticker for RF NET

I don't care that you have a different opinion, it's that you can't make a post without a dumb saying. You even did it in the NBA thread.

And for the bumper sticker used constantly here and by the progressives. Hint it starts with an R and ends with T

Reject? Robert? Roger Ebert?

I really don't know.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I've never seen anyone use either of those terms.



I don't care that you have a different opinion, it's that you can't make a post without a dumb saying. You even did it in the NBA thread.



Reject? Robert? Roger Ebert?

I really don't know.

An interesting comparison would be between the lists of performers at Live Earth and those Sean Manatee "Freedom Concerts" which feature the stylings of Martina McBride, Lee Greenwood and Manatee himself....



Regarding the other bumper sticker word. It rhymes with Bassist

[Barnaby Jones]

Regarding the other bumper sticker word. It rhymes with Bassist

Typical regressive denial!!!

[StanUpshaw]

1340 days ago

Jesus Christ dude

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Typical regressive denial!!!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4b/Nile_Delta_-_Naucratis.png

[spoon]

1340 days ago

Jesus Christ dude

Hilarious!

[WRESTLINGFAN]

This is why some unions are hated.


http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/sodexo-usa-files-rico-lawsuit-against-seiu-118204534.html