Catholic church. Is it christian? [Archive]

WRESTLINGFAN

05-11-2011, 05:31 PM

I am not that religious. I did get my sacraments up until Confirmation but over the years I started to question the Church. Besides the policy of celibacy and the child sex abuse there are some issues that bother me about the church

The church preaches that there is 1 god and Jesus is the savior but there are some characteristics that other forms of christianity dont have

In every church there is the image of an emaciated often bloodied christ on the cross. Protestant churches dont have that image. I think christians believe that Christ should be shown as risen from the dead and not a punished tortured man hanging in pain. Theres also the notion of praying to saints. Im not sure which commandment it is, but isnt one of them that there is only 1 god and there shouldnt be any worshipping of any one else. It seems to me that praying to saints and statues is a form of idolatry. Another example is if you lose something pray to St Anthony. Cars have a St Christopher medal. Theres also a lot of pope worship. He might be the leader of the church but he is a human.

I saw a documentary that the Vatican could be anti christian. They showed an image of John Paul II on a throne with an inverted cross carved in.

http://my.telegraph.co.uk/wp-content/blogs.dir/1/user/solomon_grundy/popecross.jpg?v=76800

StanUpshaw

05-11-2011, 05:45 PM

http://i.imgur.com/IJUH3.jpg

IT'S NOT CHRISTIAN!

smiler grogan

05-11-2011, 05:46 PM

As far as the image of Jesus on the cross I know that the Lutheran church where I was raised in had that behind the alter.

I believe the inverted cross is in honor of St. Peter but this is in no way my area of expertise.

Historically the church used the images (stained glass, idols, etc..) to teach the peasants the stories of the bible because no one knew how to read.

Praying to saints, no idea how that all fits in.

Dude!

05-11-2011, 06:00 PM

there is no god
and Mary is his mother

StanUpshaw

05-11-2011, 06:01 PM

Once you allow room for interpretation, then anything goes. What's the difference between not following the crazy Leviticus shit (which no one seems to have a problem with) and not following the crazy Exodus shit?

And there's nothing in the bible about how you're supposed to display the cross, so any debate there is (extra) fucking stupid.

WRESTLINGFAN

05-11-2011, 06:08 PM

Why can other denominations be married but catholic priests cant? Is that just a cathlic church decree ?

StanUpshaw

05-11-2011, 06:11 PM

spe5150

05-11-2011, 06:23 PM

I saw a documentary that the Vatican could be anti christian. They showed an image of John Paul II on a throne with an inverted cross carved in.

http://my.telegraph.co.uk/wp-content/blogs.dir/1/user/solomon_grundy/popecross.jpg?v=76800

I believe the inverted cross is in honor of St. Peter but this is in no way my area of expertise.

In no way do I want to enter into the deeper discussion of religion, but as far as this part of your original comments go, SG is right. The inverted cross is the symbol of Saint Peter, who was (technically) the first Pope, therefore every Pope "sits in Saint Peter's chair," therefore the inverted cross imagery is Catholic-appropriate.

Syd

05-11-2011, 07:27 PM

Catholicism is still Christian, but there's an obvious divide between Protestantism as well as Orthodox Christianity. There's a greater schism between Orthodox and Catholic church, but the divide between American protestants is pretty severe too. Enough to claim that it isn't Christian? Depends on your perspective.

CruelCircus

05-11-2011, 11:35 PM

Bob Impact

05-11-2011, 11:53 PM

Historically, every Christian denomination deviated from Roman Catholicism in some way. (Through differences in biblical interpretations, politics, etc.)

Roman Catholicism is the original, so it technically IS christianity.

This.

Also, the Catholic view on a lot of this is based on Canonical Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_law_(Catholic_Church)), which a lot of the other faiths ignore.
I'm an atheist and haven't been to church since my grandmother died years ago but as I recall, a saint is not and idol, it's an agent of god.

Furtherman

05-12-2011, 08:20 AM

Yes. Folk wisdom is that the church decided that priests were so gosh durn wealthy that they couldn't risk them leaving their fortunes to family, so they forbade marriage.

I don't know if there's any validity to that.

Actually, priests were allowed to marry in the early days of the church, but when they died, their land went to their wives. So apparently god then said priest couldn't marry, because god needs land. He's not making any more of it!

Is the catholic church christian? Debatable.

Is it a business? Yes.

TripleSkeet

05-12-2011, 08:28 AM

All I know is whenever I lose something I say the Saint Anthony prayer and I ALWAYS find it. That guy is GOOD.

I heard thats how they found Bin Laden.

Crispy123

05-12-2011, 08:52 AM

Historically, every Christian denomination deviated from Roman Catholicism in some way. (Through differences in biblical interpretations, politics, etc.)

Roman Catholicism is the original, so it technically IS christianity.

Not completely true. It is an original in that it started by the apostle Peter but the Eastern Orthadox was started by the apostle Paul at approximately the same time and the Church of the East was started by the apostles Thomas, Thaddeus, and Bartholomew so their were actually 3 originals.

Jujubees2

05-12-2011, 08:54 AM

Why can other denominations be married but catholic priests cant? Is that just a cathlic church decree ?

Yes. Folk wisdom is that the church decided that priests were so gosh durn wealthy that they couldn't risk them leaving their fortunes to family, so they forbade marriage.

I don't know if there's any validity to that.

I remember going to mas while on vacation in Portland last summer and the priest using the homily to rail against the church about ordaining women as priests. Apparently the Vatican scholar researched the idea for years and could not find anything in the Bible that prevented it but when they presented their findings to the Poe he dismissed it. A majority of the Vatican scholars resigned following that.

You even get differences when going from one Catholic church to another. At my parish they're all up in arms about abortion. They even have a prayer card in the pew that is entitled "Prayer to close an abortion mill". The deacon even went out of his way at the Easter Vigil to speak of how a person who used to work for Planned Parenthood was converting to Catholicism that night. Mind you, we have a priest on leave who was found to have child pornography on his computer but we have not heard a word about him in over a year.

A few weeks ago I went to a different church in my area and the priest there came right out and said during his homily that if he probably wouldn't be a priest if he were making the decision today in the face of all the sex abuse charges against priests.

Furtherman

05-12-2011, 09:00 AM

A few weeks ago I went to a different church in my area and the priest there came right out and said during his homily that if he probably wouldn't be a priest if he were making the decision today in the face of all the sex abuse convictions against priests.

Fixed.

WRESTLINGFAN

05-12-2011, 09:32 AM

Not completely true. It is an original in that it started by the apostle Peter but the Eastern Orthadox was started by the apostle Paul at approximately the same time and the Church of the East was started by the apostles Thomas, Thaddeus, and Bartholomew so their were actually 3 originals.

I thought the Church split in 1054 where Rome was the center of the Catholic church and Constantinople was for the Eastern sect. Was that another sect of Eastern Orthodoxy?

Crispy123

05-12-2011, 09:39 AM

I thought the Church split in 1054 where Rome was the center of the Catholic church and Constantinople was for the Eastern sect. Was that another sect of Eastern Orthodoxy?

Yeah they are different. That is whats known as Oriental Orthodox. But their were 3 actual Churches started by Apostles of Jesus, 1 of those being the Catholic Church.

Zorro

05-12-2011, 09:45 AM

I am not that religious. I did get my sacraments up until Confirmation but over the years I started to question the Church. Besides the policy of celibacy and the child sex abuse there are some issues that bother me about the church

The church preaches that there is 1 god and Jesus is the savior but there are some characteristics that other forms of christianity dont have

In every church there is the image of an emaciated often bloodied christ on the cross. Protestant churches dont have that image. I think christians believe that Christ should be shown as risen from the dead and not a punished tortured man hanging in pain. Theres also the notion of praying to saints. Im not sure which commandment it is, but isnt one of them that there is only 1 god and there shouldnt be any worshipping of any one else. It seems to me that praying to saints and statues is a form of idolatry. Another example is if you lose something pray to St Anthony. Cars have a St Christopher medal. Theres also a lot of pope worship. He might be the leader of the church but he is a human.

I saw a documentary that the Vatican could be anti christian. They showed an image of John Paul II on a throne with an inverted cross carved in.

Look, I think as long as Jesus wasn't a Mexican you're safe.

Contra

05-12-2011, 01:31 PM

Hells no, fuck those christians

TripleSkeet

05-12-2011, 01:35 PM

Nothing for my Bin Laden joke???? You fucking people dont deserve me.:furious:

Furtherman

05-12-2011, 01:50 PM

Maybe you should pray to St. Anthony for a joke book.

Contra

05-12-2011, 01:51 PM

Nothing for my Bin Laden joke???? You fucking people dont deserve me.:furious:

I must have missed it. Hold on, let me look...

Nope

WRESTLINGFAN

05-12-2011, 01:52 PM

Nothing for my Bin Laden joke???? You fucking people dont deserve me.:furious:

There was no St Chris medal on the helo that crashed

WRESTLINGFAN

05-12-2011, 02:59 PM

Saint fail

Maybe they should have used younger people to carry it

<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/A6Ian6oV5RQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Zorro

05-12-2011, 04:51 PM

Maybe you should pray to St. Anthony for a joke book.

Or Saint Jude Patron of Lost Causes

SonOfSmeagol

05-12-2011, 04:59 PM

Or Saint Jude Patron of Lost Causes

or: Our Lady of Perpetual Inadvertent Flatulence

Greaseman, I think

WRESTLINGFAN

05-12-2011, 05:03 PM

A lot of verbal "canons" going on here

TripleSkeet

05-12-2011, 05:13 PM

Maybe you should pray to St. Anthony for a joke book.

It doesnt work that way. Id have to lose one first then pray for him to help me find it.

WRESTLINGFAN

05-12-2011, 05:44 PM

Or Saint Jude Patron of Lost Causes

The patron saint of RF.NET

thepaulo

05-13-2011, 03:09 AM

Not completely true. It is an original in that it started by the apostle Peter but the Eastern Orthadox was started by the apostle Paul at approximately the same time and the Church of the East was started by the apostles Thomas, Thaddeus, and Bartholomew so their were actually 3 originals.

This is a very interesting subject. Being as brief as possible, I was raised a Catholic but believe the Bible is beyond understanding so religion as an institution is a mess.

TjM

05-13-2011, 03:19 AM

Saint Peter, the first Pope, and one of the most revered figures in Catholic lore. When Peter was martyred by crucifixion he was said to have requested to be crucified upside down because he didn't feel worthy of dying the same way as Jesus

Read more: 8 Historic Symbols That Mean The Opposite of What You Think | Cracked.com http://www.cracked.com/article_18606_8-historic-symbols-that-mean-opposite-what-you-think.html#ixzz1MELSnTDM

A.J.

05-13-2011, 05:07 AM

The patron saint of RF.NET

It used to be Mikeyboy.

Furtherman

01-06-2012, 06:31 AM

Snoogans

01-06-2012, 09:28 AM

WRESTLINGFAN

01-06-2012, 09:40 AM

He should be a speaker at the Westboro Baptist Church

JimBeam

01-06-2012, 09:52 AM

Actually, priests were allowed to marry in the early days of the church, but when they died, their land went to their wives. So apparently god then said priest couldn't marry, because god needs land. He's not making any more of it!

Is the catholic church christian? Debatable.

Is it a business? Yes.

Yeah. All that high living they're doing with that money. Buying yachts, mansions and sports teams with that money.

Not that they're using money to educate, feed, clothe, etc ... anybody in the world.

As far as a nice depiction of Christ on the cross I think that is the difference between a " cross " and a " crucifix ".

The crucifix is the actual representation of Jesus after/just before his death.

The cross, with him maybe in his robes and the such, is, for whatever reason, a " happer " depiction and I guess symbolizes Him after resurrection.

The Saints are, as somebody pointed out, a vessell to which you pray to God. They are by no means meant to replace him.

Crispy123

01-06-2012, 10:10 AM

I agree with Sam that ALL religion is inherently flawed, in that, it is human beings interpreting God's will or word or whatever. Although, the fact that these religions have survived thousands of years becuz someone witnessed a miracle of the divine or supernatural and wrote about it is enough to make me interested in what they have to say.

There has been plenty of wrong done in the name of religion. But Religion is what has lead to society and government and it truly has allowed human beings to evolve from knuckle draggers to groups of people that build on each others work enough to send human beings into outer space.

So it can't be ALL bad.

Snoogans

01-06-2012, 10:16 AM

Yeah. All that high living they're doing with that money. Buying yachts, mansions and sports teams with that money.

Not that they're using money to educate, feed, clothe, etc ... anybody in the world.

As far as a nice depiction of Christ on the cross I think that is the difference between a " cross " and a " crucifix ".

The crucifix is the actual representation of Jesus after/just before his death.

The cross, with him maybe in his robes and the such, is, for whatever reason, a " happer " depiction and I guess symbolizes Him after resurrection.

The Saints are, as somebody pointed out, a vessell to which you pray to God. They are by no means meant to replace him.
though i agree that they probably use a bunch of money to do good, please dont be so naive. The church (catholic) that i attended through confirmation (when i just stopped cause i didnt care and was forced to go that far) has a house on the property. the house would be somewhere between 600-700K on the market, based on other houses around that are similar. Its like 5 BRs and 4 Baths and its lived in by 3 priests. thats it. One of the priests has a BMW AND a fuckin Harley. Occasionally ill see him zippin around town on it and just shake my head.

How the fuck do you get a BMW and a Harley, and a free place to live and you should see the amount they spend on food. When i had to do comm service for my confirmation requirements, i did some work in the house and they were eating fuckin steaks and seafood and expensive shit every night. It was retarded. So lets not act like they arent clippin off that money and doing very well for themselves.

Thats one, and 2, i think he was referring to way back in the day when the church was super powerful and priests were corrupt and did have massive amounts of land and assets

Furtherman

01-06-2012, 10:28 AM

But Religion is what has lead to society and government and it truly has allowed human beings to evolve from knuckle draggers to groups of people that build on each others work enough to send human beings into outer space.

I think you better read up on history. Religion had nothing to do with those things. It's just been an abscess on history's hide.

Crispy123

01-06-2012, 10:36 AM

I think you better read up on history. Religion had nothing to do with those things. It's just been an abscess on history's hide.

I am well aware of history and the link between early government and religion is indisputable.

http://www.worldhistoryonline.org/ancient-history/government-in-mesopotamia-from-the-sumerian-civilization-to-the-persian-empire.html

StanUpshaw

01-06-2012, 11:27 AM

Government is a religion.

Furtherman

01-06-2012, 12:48 PM

I am well aware of history and the link between early government and religion is indisputable.

http://www.worldhistoryonline.org/ancient-history/government-in-mesopotamia-from-the-sumerian-civilization-to-the-persian-empire.html

I'll give you that it's been a part of government forever, but society came together through necessity. Either way, as humans have evolved smarter, it's obvious that religion is no longer necessary.

StanUpshaw

01-06-2012, 12:58 PM

Then explain government.

SonOfSmeagol

01-06-2012, 01:32 PM

...it's obvious that religion is no longer necessary.

ooo I disagree. ever find a girl that worships it?

Furtherman

01-06-2012, 01:55 PM

Then explain government.

Ours? I can't!

Crispy123

01-06-2012, 02:48 PM

ooo I disagree. ever find a girl that worships it?

http://www.bostonfoodandwhine.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/bikram2-300x267.jpg

WRESTLINGFAN

01-07-2012, 09:03 AM

though i agree that they probably use a bunch of money to do good, please dont be so naive. The church (catholic) that i attended through confirmation (when i just stopped cause i didnt care and was forced to go that far) has a house on the property. the house would be somewhere between 600-700K on the market, based on other houses around that are similar. Its like 5 BRs and 4 Baths and its lived in by 3 priests. thats it. One of the priests has a BMW AND a fuckin Harley. Occasionally ill see him zippin around town on it and just shake my head.

How the fuck do you get a BMW and a Harley, and a free place to live and you should see the amount they spend on food. When i had to do comm service for my confirmation requirements, i did some work in the house and they were eating fuckin steaks and seafood and expensive shit every night. It was retarded. So lets not act like they arent clippin off that money and doing very well for themselves.

Thats one, and 2, i think he was referring to way back in the day when the church was super powerful and priests were corrupt and did have massive amounts of land and assets

Similar situation with me. There was a priest in my parish who would drive brand new cars every few years. Turns out his sister was married to a millionaire and it was a gift given to him. Weird thing is that he was a franciscan priest and I think they are supposed to take vows of poverty.

Crispy123

01-07-2012, 09:19 AM

Weird thing is that he was a franciscan priest

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/h4em8_iu-Tw?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

JimBeam

01-07-2012, 09:25 AM

Similar situation with me. There was a priest in my parish who would drive brand new cars every few years. Turns out his sister was married to a millionaire and it was a gift given to him. Weird thing is that he was a franciscan priest and I think they are supposed to take vows of poverty.

I think the poverty is he himself can't hold any substantial wealth.

While a car may be expensive it is still a way to get around.

I'm sure the Church doesn't expect their clergy to ride donkeys to get around.

Even if a priest does get back and forth from his visits to hospitals and doing funerals using a fancy car does it make what he's doing any less valuable ( at least in the eyes of a believer ) ?

Let's not confuse Catholic priests with the Benny Hinns of the world.

Snoogans

01-07-2012, 09:32 AM

Similar situation with me. There was a priest in my parish who would drive brand new cars every few years. Turns out his sister was married to a millionaire and it was a gift given to him. Weird thing is that he was a franciscan priest and I think they are supposed to take vows of poverty.

this was a catholic priest, and i know the guy got it from the church cause he was a loser that nobody cared about. he was the weirdest guy too. He had long hair and a beard. I guess if you are tryin to find a catholic priest, get one who looks like our fake jesus

Snoogans

01-07-2012, 09:33 AM

I think the poverty is he himself can't hold any substantial wealth.

While a car may be expensive it is still a way to get around.

I'm sure the Church doesn't expect their clergy to ride donkeys to get around.

Even if a priest does get back and forth from his visits to hospitals and doing funerals using a fancy car does it make what he's doing any less valuable ( at least in the eyes of a believer ) ?

Let's not confuse Catholic priests with the Benny Hinns of the world.

ask the little kid who got touched in the back of the fancy car

WRESTLINGFAN

01-07-2012, 09:51 AM

this was a catholic priest, and i know the guy got it from the church cause he was a loser that nobody cared about. he was the weirdest guy too. He had long hair and a beard. I guess if you are tryin to find a catholic priest, get one who looks like our fake jesus

My priest was too. There are different orders. Franciscans are the ones with the brown robes.

Also forgot to mention there were a lot of chalices in which my church had that were gold with diamonds and rubies on the sides of them.

I highly doubt christ used that during the last supper

JimBeam

01-07-2012, 09:54 AM

ask the little kid who got touched in the back of the fancy car

That's ridiculous and you know it.

It's like saying if one black person does something they all must do it.

Plenty of cops, doctors, etc ... have been accused of sexual misconduct and we don't think they're all bad apples.

Snoogans

01-07-2012, 09:55 AM

That's ridiculous and you know it.

It's like saying if one black person does something they all must do it.

Plenty of cops, doctors, etc ... have been accused of sexual misconduct and we don't think they're all bad apples.

dude its a fuckin joke. relax.

JimBeam

01-07-2012, 09:57 AM

I figured as much.

Snoogans

01-07-2012, 09:59 AM

I figured as much.

ironically though, we did have a priest who was at the church for like the first 8 months i was going to CCD (or whatever your part of the world calls it. Sunday school, but ours was on wednesday nights) and then was relocated to some other place in New England without much explanation. So alot of people wondered about that guy.

I never got any weird feelin like that from the dude who had the beamer and the harley, but i did get the feelin the guy was pickin up chicks from time to time.

WRESTLINGFAN

01-07-2012, 10:03 AM

The church should allow Roman Catholic priests to marry.

Eastern Orthodox christians which are the closest to the Catholic church allows their clergy to marry

NewYorkDragons80

01-08-2012, 01:52 PM

though i agree that they probably use a bunch of money to do good, please dont be so naive. The church (catholic) that i attended through confirmation (when i just stopped cause i didnt care and was forced to go that far) has a house on the property. the house would be somewhere between 600-700K on the market, based on other houses around that are similar. Its like 5 BRs and 4 Baths and its lived in by 3 priests. thats it. One of the priests has a BMW AND a fuckin Harley. Occasionally ill see him zippin around town on it and just shake my head.

How the fuck do you get a BMW and a Harley, and a free place to live and you should see the amount they spend on food. When i had to do comm service for my confirmation requirements, i did some work in the house and they were eating fuckin steaks and seafood and expensive shit every night. It was retarded. So lets not act like they arent clippin off that money and doing very well for themselves.

Thats one, and 2, i think he was referring to way back in the day when the church was super powerful and priests were corrupt and did have massive amounts of land and assets

That priest had the Harley and BMW before he joined or his family bought them for him. He did not purchase them with Church money.

Bob Impact

01-09-2012, 12:49 AM

I'll give you that it's been a part of government forever, but society came together through necessity. Either way, as humans have evolved smarter, it's obvious that religion is no longer necessary.

This is almost exactly how I feel. Not to bring Rand into this (but I'm totally going to) she had an excellent quote on this during an interview with Playboy (back when they interviewed interesting people, do they still do that?):
PLAYBOY: Has no religion, in your estimation, ever offered anything of constructive value to human life?

RAND: Qua religion, no—in the sense of blind belief, belief unsupported by, or contrary to, the facts of reality and the conclusions of reason. Faith, as such, is extremely detrimental to human life: it is the negation of reason. But you must remember that religion is an early form of philosophy, that the first attempts to explain the universe, to give a coherent frame of reference to man’s life and a code of moral values, were made by religion, before men graduated or developed enough to have philosophy. And, as philosophies, some religions have very valuable moral points. They may have a good influence or proper principles to inculcate, but in a very contradictory context and, on a very—how should I say it?—dangerous or malevolent base: on the ground of faith.