Atheists Sue over WTC Cross

[Tenbatsuzen]

Holy shit. (http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2011/07/atheists-sue-to-block-wtc-cross-from-911-memorial/1)

So the people who are anti-theism (not atheists, there's a difference) believe an actual piece of the building that has historic value shouldn't be in the WTC memorial/museum.

I've been discussing this with a friend of mine who is an atheist on Facebook, he's all for it, but my question is, why aren't atheists suing Holocaust museums? There's plenty of religious artifacts in there.

[cougarjake13]

fucking stupid


im not religious anymore but i dont care if thats included in the memorial


we are seriously fucking ourselves out of our country more and more every day


one day we'll look back and go what the fuck

[spoon]

fucking stupid


im not religious anymore but i dont care if thats included in the memorial


we are seriously fucking ourselves out of our country more and more every day


one day we'll look back and go what the fuck

Yah it's unreal. It's part of the history, so let be there. If you're not religious, so what. It's just one part of this extremely rough time in our history and many looked to the piece as a symbol of hope. If it's not for you, ok move on.

This just sounds like more pc bs that the left drive me nuts with, just shut the fuck up. It be one thing if the money for entrance went to a religious foundation, but it's just a piece in it.

This sums up how much these fools sound like babies.

According to the complaint, two of the four plaintiffs were raised in "the Jewish tradition" and one has a "Catholic background." The fourth is the brother of a Marine reservist who did rescue work for two weeks after the attacks and died in 2005 of "weakened lung syndrome." He opposes a cross unless it is a Lutheran cross.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

As someone who is not religious or an atheist. I happen to believe that it's possible there's a supreme being.


Saying that as long as people are free to interpret their thoughts on the cross that's fine by me as long as people don't force their beliefs on anyone else one way or another

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I didn't know Lutherans had their own cross is it shaped differently like many of the eastern orthodox are?

[Tenbatsuzen]

Yah it's unreal. It's part of the history, so let be there. If you're not religious, so what. It's just one part of this extremely rough time in our history and many looked to the piece as a symbol of hope. If it's not for you, ok move on.

This just sounds like more pc bs that the left drive me nuts with, just shut the fuck up. It be one thing if the money for entrance went to a religious foundation, but it's just a piece in it.

This sums up how much these fools sound like babies.

I think what the Atheists are pissed about is that even though the museum is run by a non-profit, it's on the actual WTC site, which is owned by the Port Authority, which is a government entity.

[StanUpshaw]

If the museum took federal money, then it can't promote religion. There's simply no arguing that.

There would be no problem if they present in a historical context, but by inviting priests to bless it, it sounds like they're really playing up the notion that it's a religious artifact.

[Dude!]

I didn't know Lutherans had their own cross is it shaped differently like many of the eastern orthodox are?

yes, it is more like the
latvian orthodox cross

[Judge Smails]

I didn't know Lutherans had their own cross is it shaped differently like many of the eastern orthodox are?

Jesus is holding onto a Krispy Kreme Doughnut Burger with each hand.

[Snacks]

I think what the Atheists are pissed about is that even though the museum is run by a non-profit, it's on the actual WTC site, which is owned by the Port Authority, which is a government entity.

I dont know for sure but I always thought the port authority was a private business not part of the govt? My friend who is a port authority cop has always argued that the tax payers dont pay his salary that they are paid by the business end of the port authority. Basically it has always sounded to me like the port authority police was started like it was a private security for a company that has grown into a huge police force but still a private one. Similar to many colleges and their campus police.

If that is true then these people have no right to tell the port authority what they can or cant do. Its also a museum to show the history of what happened. If some religious idiots want to be believe that crumbled and bent steel that looks like a t or a cross has some meaning, let them. Who really cares?

[Judge Smails]

I dont know for sure but I always thought the port authority was a private business not part of the govt?

Yes and no. First off, their website is a .gov site.

Also, from Wiki:

The Port Authority is jointly headed by the governors of New York and New Jersey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Governor_of_New_Jersey). Each governor, with the approval of his or her state senate, appoints six members to the Board of Commissioners (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Board_of_Commissioners), who serve overlapping six-year terms without pay.<SUP id=cite_ref-PANYNJ-annual-report-2002_0-2 class=reference>[ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Authority_of_New_York_and_New_Jersey#cite_not e-PANYNJ-annual-report-2002-0)</SUP>


Financially, the Port Authority has no power to tax and does not receive tax money from any local or state governments. Instead, it operates on the revenues it makes from its rents, tolls, fees, and facilities.<SUP id=cite_ref-22 class=reference>[ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Authority_of_New_York_and_New_Jersey#cite_not e-22)</SUP>

[Tenbatsuzen]

Jesus is holding onto a Krispy Kreme Doughnut Burger with each hand.

Don't forget about the kryptonite crown of thorns.

[cougarjake13]

I didn't know Lutherans had their own cross is it shaped differently like many of the eastern orthodox are?

i was thinking it was like the celtic cross

but google tells me im wrong

[A.J.]

That "cross" should have been melted down along with the rest of the WTC steel that went into the USS New York.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

On the whole WTC site issue. Ive had it with all parties, the LMDC, Port Authority, Local and State government and sad to say some of the families.


I know criticizing the families might be overstepping some boundaries but they were well compensated and I think a lot of their concerns like not building where the footprints of the original towers were is just, but just the overall bickering about how big the memorial has to be and the constant lawsuits.


Its been 10 years and its still a fucking hole in the ground. Thats what this country has turned into nothing but red tape, lawsuits and nothing gets done. That site should have already been fully developed and built but look at it now, bickering over a piece of metal and what it means or doesn't mean to people.

[Jujubees2]

On the whole WTC site issue. Ive had it with all parties, the LMDC, Port Authority, Local and State government and sad to say some of the families.


I know criticizing the families might be overstepping some boundaries but they were well compensated and I think a lot of their concerns like not building where the footprints of the original towers were is just, but just the overall bickering about how big the memorial has to be and the constant lawsuits.


Its been 10 years and its still a fucking hole in the ground. Thats what this country has turned into nothing but red tape, lawsuits and nothing gets done. That site should have already been fully developed and built but look at it now, bickering over a piece of metal and what it means or doesn't mean to people.

So the terrorists won?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

So the terrorists won?

10 years later and over a trillion dollars gone, over 5K troops KIA they sure aint losing

[Furtherman]

I don't see a problem with it. These atheist groups are just as annoying as the religious ones.

This isn't in the future when religion is extinct. This is the present, deal with it.

[StanUpshaw]

The first amendment has prohibited the government from endorsing religion for over 200 years. Deal with it.

[Tenbatsuzen]

Its been 10 years and its still a fucking hole in the ground. Thats what this country has turned into nothing but red tape, lawsuits and nothing gets done. That site should have already been fully developed and built but look at it now, bickering over a piece of metal and what it means or doesn't mean to people.

What the fuck are you talk about? 1 world trade is being built right now, and the museum is going to open up on the 10 year anniversary. The memorial will be done soon as well.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

What the fuck are you talk about? 1 world trade is being built right now, and the museum is going to open up on the 10 year anniversary. The memorial will be done soon as well.

Im saying that the entire site should have been completed already, Towers, memorial everything


10 years and this is what it looks like today

http://streetsy.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83451e6f169e201538f79a09c970b-900wi

[CountryBob]

Im saying that the entire site should have been completed already, Towers, memorial everything


10 years and this is what it looks like today

http://streetsy.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83451e6f169e201538f79a09c970b-900wi

Are you a building expert or a contractor? How long does it normally take to build a superstructure like this?

[Tenbatsuzen]

Im saying that the entire site should have been completed already, Towers, memorial everything


10 years and this is what it looks like today

http://streetsy.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83451e6f169e201538f79a09c970b-900wi

You DO know where that picture was taken FROM, right?

[Tenbatsuzen]

Are you a building expert or a contractor? How long does it normally take to build a superstructure like this?

The original towers took 2.5 years to build - August 1968 to December 1970.

It took at least a year, if not 2, to fully clean out Ground Zero because of the delicacy of the situation in finding remains (if I recall correctly)

Plus they had to go through the entire design phase of trying to find what they were going to build there.

I'm not saying they are right on time, but considering what was involved here, I'm not tapping my foot wondering why the job isn't done.

[Judge Smails]

You DO know where that picture was taken FROM, right?

Oooh ooh! Was it taken from the top of THIS (http://www.panynj.gov/wtcprogress/live-camera.html) hole in the ground?

[Furtherman]

The first amendment has prohibited the government from endorsing religion for over 200 years. Deal with it.

Yea, that's worked.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Are you a building expert or a contractor? How long does it normally take to build a superstructure like this?

Should it take this long? Im including all the bureaucracy/red tape.


The Hoover dam was built in a period of about 5 years

[StanUpshaw]

Yea, that's worked.

That's why they're suing. What don't you understand?

[Furtherman]

That's why they're suing. What don't you understand?

I understand it fine. But if separation of church and state was absolute I wouldn't be hearing about it all the time.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

As long as the government doesn't acknowledge it as a religious symbol and take an official stand on it. I have no problem with it. Im not religious but it doesnt offend me if a person interprets it as a cross

[Judge Smails]

Should it take this long? Im including all the bureaucracy/red tape.


The Hoover dam was built in a period of about 5 years


According to Wiki:

The original World Trade Center was first proposed in 1943 but the plans were put on hold in 1949. In 1961, initial plans were made public but negotiations between NJ and NY reached a stalemate. In 1962 the Port Authority picked an architect. The design was unveiled to the public in 1964. In 1965 the PA began aquiring the property and the groundbreaking was in 1966. The ribbon cutting ceremony was in 1973.

So, between 12 and 24 years (depending on what starting point you want to pick) and there was no "world changing" terrorist attack that they had to deal with.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

There was WW2 going on in '43 Im thinking thats why it was delayed The Willis (Formerly Sears tower) according to WIKI was built in 3 years

[spoon]

What the fuck are you talk about? 1 world trade is being built right now, and the museum is going to open up on the 10 year anniversary. The memorial will be done soon as well.

I was just going to say the same thing. 1 is really looking pretty far along now and it's really nice to see something there. I love people parroting that same old line from afar without any fucking idea if it's true. And FM is right, either side of the religious debate here is just sickening, but I love how it always comes back to the gov agencies for WF. Type cast to say the least.

[spoon]

Im saying that the entire site should have been completed already, Towers, memorial everything


10 years and this is what it looks like today

http://streetsy.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83451e6f169e201538f79a09c970b-900wi

Yah, that's not what you said at all structural engineer. Come on man, just put down the Glenn Beck hate everything gov involved act and do a little research. The boogeyman isn't hiding in the "hole in the ground", it's part of the memorial.

[Snacks]

Yah, that's not what you said at all structural engineer. Come on man, just put down the Glenn Beck hate everything gov involved act and do a little research. The boogeyman isn't hiding in the "hole in the ground", it's part of the memorial.

I agree with WF on this, we should have told everyone to go fuck themselves and built something already. I know 1 building is like 40 stories up but its no where near complete and the main tower isnt even started. The fucking museum and pools still arent completed and we are 6 weeks away from the 10 year anv.

[spoon]

There was WW2 going on in '43 Im thinking thats why it was delayed The Willis (Formerly Sears tower) according to WIKI was built in 3 years

Classic WF, at every turn or fact people throw at him, he changes the overall discussion. So yes WF, things get in the way and projects of this type/magnitude take time usually right. Thanks for making the point so many here have already done for you. Not to mention how many swings and misses does it take for you to see you're off? Sears tower now compares to this how? There are HUGE political and financial factors involved here, much less the almost 3000 deaths/memorial in play. You just need to rant at everything gov here, but I fail to see the outrage outside of HOW some argued in getting to where we are today. If the space was needed and it needed to be built faster, under your life's theory of work, wouldn't the market have made that happen?

[spoon]

I agree with WF on this, we should have told everyone to go fuck themselves and built something already. I know 1 building is like 40 stories up but its no where near complete and the main tower isnt even started. The fucking museum and pools still arent completed and we are 6 weeks away from the 10 year anv.

As WF himself brought up, other factors like wars halt or even stop financing and companies from moving at the pace they would like. Look no further then the GW Bridge and it's history, or that monstrosity Zanadu here in NJ and the impact of this economy on it's development/completion. I'm not saying they were super efficient in putting it up either, I'm just not so quick to throw out shit information without a clue as we all know WF just did by saying it's just some hole in the ground with nothing done. That pic put up by Tenbats and Smails vantage point pic shoved it back in his face and he's trying to save face and change the whole line of commenting.

Sorry, it may have taken a little longer than it should have, but given the IMMENSE amount of factors involved I can't get too upset seeing where it's at today. Take the time and do it as best you can for all parties involved. Like I said earlier, it isn't like WE HAVE to have it done any time soon outside of this symbolic anniversary date. Do you know how HARD it will be to fill those offices in the end at this point? I'm quite sure this building and it's owners have quite a tough situation ahead of them, and were probably hoping the economy would be in better shape when it was completed.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Yah, that's not what you said at all structural engineer. Come on man, just put down the Glenn Beck hate everything gov involved act and do a little research. The boogeyman isn't hiding in the "hole in the ground", it's part of the memorial.



http://www.foxnomad.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/bumper-car-cropped-medium.jpg

[WRESTLINGFAN]

From 2006 but a good article


http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-02-09-usa-rebuild_x.htm

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Do you know how HARD it will be to fill those offices in the end at this point? .

What? There will be hardly any tenants once everything is completed?

Look whats happening, Instead of having a finished product the world is laughing at this country because of an arguement over a piece of steel shaped like a t

[Tenbatsuzen]

What? There will be hardly any tenants once everything is completed?

You do realize one of the reasons 9/11's death toll wasn't higher is because occupancy in both towers was very low. A lot of businesses moved out after the first bombing in '93.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I dont think there wil be a lot of vacancy, That place is going to be a fortress once completed

[Snacks]

You do realize one of the reasons 9/11's death toll wasn't higher is because occupancy in both towers was very low. A lot of businesses moved out after the first bombing in '93.

where do you get this shit from? the reason the death toll wasnt higher was because it was so early in the morning. the original estimated deaths that day were feared to be 50k people.

[spoon]

http://www.foxnomad.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/bumper-car-cropped-medium.jpg

so your counterpoint is look at this nut's car?

ok, great

the owner of that car is probably a wacko or your neighbor just fucking with you which would be awesome

[spoon]

I dont think there wil be a lot of vacancy, That place is going to be a fortress once completed

The safety point wasn't even the angle I was going for, it was more along the lines of real estate markets, especially top line commercial real estate markets are in ATROCIOUS shape. Add in the fact that many WILL probably stay away bc of the past and many political and religious ties to the area now.

[spoon]

where do you get this shit from? the reason the death toll wasnt higher was because it was so early in the morning. the original estimated deaths that day were feared to be 50k people.

I think both were factors, bc I do remember seeing somewhere that the tower's had a decent amount of space available at the time... or at least more than usual. I have nothing to back it up either, just something I remember reading or hearing in the past. I could be wrong but surely am not claiming this to be fact.

[StanUpshaw]

You're all part right. Or, as I prefer to look at it, you're all part wrong:

http://www.nytimes.com/1998/05/31/realestate/commercial-property-downtown-at-the-world-trade-center-things-are-looking-up.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

As the market for office space in midtown has tightened and rental rates increased, tenants have been looking to downtown as a cheaper alternative. Over the last year, those seeking large blocks of space have been finding them at the trade center, which had many vacancies as a result of the 1993 terrorist bombing and the shrinkage of the financial industry in the early part of the decade.

''In January 1997 we had about an 80 percent occupancy rate,'' said Cherrie Nanninga, director of real estate for the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, which owns the complex. Twenty percent of 10.5 million square feet of space is 2.1 million, which would be a substantial building by itself.

But as a result of the last year's work, Ms. Nanninga, said the complex is over 90 percent occupied and expects to it reach the 95 percent mark by the end of the year. That, she said, would be about as full as the center is likely to get, since there is almost always someone moving in or out.

[spoon]

that's still over 3 years before the actual attack

[StanUpshaw]

http://www.panynj.gov/wtcprogress/history-wtc.html

2000 The WTC reaches its highest occupancy rate.




Still a year before the terrorist attack?

[spoon]

well then it pretty much looks like Tenbats is wrong again and my memory was off or I simply read a tenbat's post!

too late to add someone to that wrong poll? bc I'm seeing someone living up to his hype!

[StanUpshaw]

well then it pretty much looks like Tenbats is wrong again and my memory was off or I simply read a tenbat's post!

too late to add someone to that wrong poll? bc I'm seeing someone living up to his hype!

If I run into AnPo, I'll be sure to bring that up.

[spoon]

If I run into AnPo, I'll be sure to bring that up.

or it could be me?

[StanUpshaw]

<iframe width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/YAW4QQD_WTk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[keithy_19]

They should let this cross stay. If you're not christian or religious than just think of it as a piece of history. I can't stand people who make a big deal out of nothing. This is one of those cases.

[Syd]

They should let this cross stay. If you're not christian or religious than just think of it as a piece of history. I can't stand people who make a big deal out of nothing. This is one of those cases.

It's government backed religious symbols. It's unconstitutional and un-American. Love it or leave it, commie.

[Dan 'Hampton]

It's a cross as much as the walmart receipt with Jesus' face on it is legit. It's history. Move along.

[keithy_19]

It's government backed religious symbols. It's unconstitutional and un-American. Love it or leave it, commie.

So every cross is a religious symbol? Not just two intersecting lines?

Make what you want of it. It's a non issue.

[booster11373]

All atheists myself included should just refer to it as a lower case letter T

[keithy_19]

All atheists myself included should just refer to it as a lower case letter T

:innocent:

[spoon]

So every cross is a religious symbol? Not just two intersecting lines?

Make what you want of it. It's a non issue.

They don't want it included bc it's two intersecting lines buddy, they want it in for it's religious meaning/impact. Make what you want out of it, but it seem to be an issue to some.

I too say put it in simply for the historic ties it has to the site, but you have to see their point.

[keithy_19]

They don't want it included bc it's two intersecting lines buddy, they want it in for it's religious meaning/impact. Make what you want out of it, but it seem to be an issue to some.

I too say put it in simply for the historic ties it has to the site, but you have to see their point.

It's not that I don't see their point, it's just that I find their point to be childish in nature. No one is forcing anything on anyone here. It was part of the building that happened to stand as it did. If a priest comes and blesses it it doesn't change it from what it actually is.

I may be simple minded but if I don't find something to adhere to my beliefs I simply don't view it as such.

[spoon]

so do you really think that they "found" this cross versus made it during the salvage

bc to me it reeks of forcing religion down your throat as most do in times of trouble and sorrow

[keithy_19]

so do you really think that they "found" this cross versus made it during the salvage

bc to me it reeks of forcing religion down your throat as most do in times of trouble and sorrow

I do. It seems to fall in line with how a structure would be built to support something.

As for the forcing religion on people, I only would feel this way if you were somehow forced to comply with religious aspects when viewing the cross.

[StanUpshaw]

I do. It seems to fall in line with how a structure would be built to support something.

As for the forcing religion on people, I only would feel this way if you were somehow forced to comply with religious aspects when viewing the cross.

Teach the controversy! Present both sides and let the children decide what to believe!

[Dude!]

It's government backed religious symbols. It's unconstitutional and un-American. Love it or leave it, commie.

syd, you used to be brighter

here is what the
1st amendment says:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

has congress made a law
on the topic of the WTC cross?

[StanUpshaw]

syd, you used to be brighter

here is what the
1st amendment says:



has congress made a law
on the topic of the WTC cross?

Does congress make a law to put nativity scenes in front of courthouses?

[Tenbatsuzen]

where do you get this shit from? the reason the death toll wasnt higher was because it was so early in the morning. the original estimated deaths that day were feared to be 50k people.

So early in the morning? The first fucking plane hit at 8:46. I dunno if you ever worked in an office, but that's not "so early".

[Dude!]

Does congress make a law to put nativity scenes in front of courthouses?

no

[Tenbatsuzen]

well then it pretty much looks like Tenbats is wrong again and my memory was off or I simply read a tenbat's post!

too late to add someone to that wrong poll? bc I'm seeing someone living up to his hype!

*shrug*. I remember hearing on the news that one of the reasons the death tolls weren't higher was because of the occupancy. Both of our memories are off. And a couple of searches kind of corroborates that a lot of people have parallel thinking on WTC's occupancy at the time of the attacks, but the search results get swallowed up in 9/11 truther sites.

[Snacks]

So early in the morning? The first fucking plane hit at 8:46. I dunno if you ever worked in an office, but that's not "so early".

and most people dont have to be at work til 9 am and many people that were there got out in time. if it was 10 am or 1pm there would have been more deaths. thankfully most people show up on time not too early!

[Tenbatsuzen]

and most people dont have to be at work til 9 am and many people that were there got out in time. if it was 10 am or 1pm there would have been more deaths. thankfully most people show up on time not too early!

god you're a dolt

Do you remember how 9/11 worked? Most of the people who died were above where the two strikes were.

[TripleSkeet]

This is so fucking ridiculous. Atheists like these assholes are no fucking better then the religious fuckjobs that try and cram their fucking morals and beliefs down your throat. Its a cross to some and a fucking t shaped piece of history to others. Why not just be a fucking grown up and keep your beliefs to yourself? No. Instead they want to take away stuff from others for what? How does putting this t shaped piece of fucking metal effect you in ANY way? Just shut the fuck up and mind your own fucking business.

[Space Frog]

I wish atheist & theist would stop being self centered pricks. Not everyone & everything need to revolve @ my beliefs. Let them have it because it has a special meaning to them and it is not government compliance to a church of USA.

[StanUpshaw]

This is so fucking ridiculous. Atheists like these assholes are no fucking better then the religious fuckjobs that try and cram their fucking morals and beliefs down your throat. Its a cross to some and a fucking t shaped piece of history to others. Why not just be a fucking grown up and keep your beliefs to yourself? No. Instead they want to take away stuff from others for what? How does putting this t shaped piece of fucking metal effect you in ANY way? Just shut the fuck up and mind your own fucking business.

Should they mind their own business when statues of the ten commandments show up in their courthouses?

[keithy_19]

This is so fucking ridiculous. Atheists like these assholes are no fucking better then the religious fuckjobs that try and cram their fucking morals and beliefs down your throat. Its a cross to some and a fucking t shaped piece of history to others. Why not just be a fucking grown up and keep your beliefs to yourself? No. Instead they want to take away stuff from others for what? How does putting this t shaped piece of fucking metal effect you in ANY way? Just shut the fuck up and mind your own fucking business.

I liked the part where you said fuck.

[spoon]

I liked the part where you said fuck.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[keithy_19]

Should they mind their own business when statues of the ten commandments show up in their courthouses?

You really think that the cross at ground zero and the ten commandments at courthouses are the same?

[Tenbatsuzen]

Should they mind their own business when statues of the ten commandments show up in their courthouses?

You're comparing apples and oranges.

One is a museum.

The other is a place that is instrumental in enacting laws and justice.

The lawsuit is basically impeding on the museum's freedom of speech to display culturally relevant and historical artifacts.

An atheist tried to stop Buzz Aldrin from taking communion on the moon. Are there courthouses on the moon?

[Tenbatsuzen]

You really think that the cross at ground zero and the ten commandments at courthouses are the same?

Well, Snacks thinks people magically teleport to their desks on the 94th floor right on the dot at 9am, so who knows

[TripleSkeet]

Should they mind their own business when statues of the ten commandments show up in their courthouses?

Again, yes. If anything are they not the first example of a set of laws that most people live by today? No killing? Lying? Stealing? They arent trying to convert people to religion, they are there as a symbol of law. I never got why people would get upset by that either.

Let me guess, it really bothers you when people say "Merry Christmas" too, huh?

I cant imagine how boring somebodies life has to be that this kind of shit upsets them enough for them to try and take action by complaining about it. If your life is that boring you should just end it.

[spoon]

Are there courthouses on the moon?

I'm thinking there HAS to be!

[spoon]

Jerry? Any input?

[TripleSkeet]

I liked the part where you said fuck.

:laugh:

[keithy_19]

Well, Snacks thinks people magically teleport to their desks on the 94th floor right on the dot at 9am, so who knows

I get what he's saying about working a 9 to 5 office job. But for whatever reason he failed to see where he was flawed with that reasoning. My dad worked 5 blocks from the trade centers and he was at the office by 6. Not everyone in an office adheres to the 9 to 5 thing.

And it's 2011. Why can't we teleport yet? It doesn't even have to be magical (though that's a plus).

[keithy_19]

Are there courthouses on the moon?

Again, it's 2011. Why hasn't this happened yet?

[StanUpshaw]

The constitution still applies, even in a museum.

[keithy_19]

The constitution still applies, even in a museum.

How is this forcing a religion on you?

[spoon]

And it's 2011. Why can't we teleport yet? It doesn't even have to be magical (though that's a plus).

you can't?

[keithy_19]

you can't?

Well...yeah. I mean, I could...if I wanted to...but I don't want to be a show off...or anything.

[sailor]

The constitution still applies, even in a museum.

If they were installing a church, sure, but an artifact or piece of art, even if religious in nature would not be subject to this. Heck, governmental agency NEA sponsored "piss Christ."

[StanUpshaw]

How is this forcing a religion on you?

You're the only one saying "forcing." Why are you saying that?

They certainly aren't allowed to force religion.

But besides that, they aren't allowed to promote, endorse, or favor any religion. At all. Ever.

[Tenbatsuzen]

You're the only one saying "forcing." Why are you saying that?

They certainly aren't allowed to force religion.

But besides that, they aren't allowed to promote, endorse, or favor any religion. At all. Ever.

It's not.

"This was part of the building that was seen as a cross by certain people during cleanup operations".

Fuck, part of the lawsuit is pissed the cross looks Catholic and wants a Lutheran cross, which totally kills your argument.

[keithy_19]

You're the only one saying "forcing." Why are you saying that?

They certainly aren't allowed to force religion.

But besides that, they aren't allowed to promote, endorse, or favor any religion. At all. Ever.

Because it seems like you feel that this is somehow infringing on your rights. It's not. At all.

[Tenbatsuzen]

I'm sure weddings took place at Windows on the World. I'm sure said wedding were presided over religious folk.

[keithy_19]

If they were installing a church, sure, but an artifact or piece of art, even if religious in nature would not be subject to this. Heck, governmental agency NEA sponsored "piss Christ."

Thank you for bringing this up.

This piece of "art" pissed me off quite a bit. Not because I was offended with what the "artist" was doing, but because it was somehow considered art. It was "shocking" and people got up in arms about it. Same thing happened with the painting of the virgin Mary that had dung on it.

Thankfully I chose not to acknowledge the pieces and the problem was solved.

[Tenbatsuzen]

Jerry? Any input?

goddamnit this made me laugh

[StanUpshaw]

Because it seems like you feel that this is somehow infringing on your rights. It's not. At all.

By exclusively endorsing Christianity (specifically the Catholic sect, according that Lutheran), they are obviously violating our rights.

[Tenbatsuzen]

By exclusively endorsing Christianity (specifically the Catholic sect, according that Lutheran), they are obviously violating our rights.

And howis the PANYNJ, or anyone else, endorsing Catholicism? You still haven't explained this yet.

[StanUpshaw]

And howis the PANYNJ, or anyone else, endorsing Catholicism? You still haven't explained this yet.

From the complaint:
In placing an item revered specifically as a symbol that “God never abandoned us at Ground Zero” in the September 11 Memorial and Museum, the defendants have afforded Christian Americans the privilege of a faith-based memorial.

[keithy_19]

From the complaint:

All that complaint showed was how big of a prick the people complaining are being.

[PapaBear]

From the complaint:
In placing an item revered specifically as a symbol that “God never abandoned us at Ground Zero” in the September 11 Memorial and Museum, the defendants have afforded Christian Americans the privilege of a faith-based memorial.
That's from the complaint. NOT the Constitution. Come up with a better argument.

Let me ask you this. In a publicly funded library, should the Religion section either 1: Be eliminated, or 2: be required to have an equal number of books about every religion in existence?

The "separation of religion and state" aspect of the Constitution can not be in totally black and white terms on a realistic level. It's impossible.

[Tenbatsuzen]

From the complaint:

Given the amount of crosses and stuff that were at Ground Zero, isn't this complaint about 10 years too late?

Again, the demand for a lutheran cross decimates any argument this lawsuit may have

[Tenbatsuzen]

All that complaint showed was how big of a prick the people complaining are being.

Right. They had to get the digs in that God didn't care and allowed the planes to crash, and then have the nerve to say it's OUR museum.

Basically this is just a troll job, IMHO.

[Space Frog]

That's from the complaint. NOT the Constitution. Come up with a better argument. Let me ask you this. In a publicly funded library, should the Religion section either 1: Be eliminated, or 2: be required to have an equal number of books about every religion in existence? The "separation of religion and state" aspect of the Constitution can not be in totally black and white terms on a realistic level. It's impossible. The library should have the religious books that the people of the local community would like to check out. Of, by, & 4 the peeps.

[Tenbatsuzen]

BTW, the Cross was on site and displayed at Ground Zero for *five years* before it was moved out of the way for construction. Where were the lawsuits then?

[Snacks]

Well, Snacks thinks people magically teleport to their desks on the 94th floor right on the dot at 9am, so who knows

no one said that you douche or should i use the terrible word dolt? but it has been talked about very often that if it was later in the day there would have been more casualties. You just want to argue for argument sake. The fact remains your an idiot who thought the building was empty when in fact it was closer to 90% capacity. You are also mad because every argument you make is always wrong and backed up by others to prove you wrong. I dont even have to find facts anymore because others do it for me when its against you because everyone on this board knows you are an idiot!

[keithy_19]

no one said that you douche or should i use the terrible word dolt? but it has been talked about very often that if it was later in the day there would have been more casualties. You just want to argue for argument sake. The fact remains your an idiot who thought the building was empty when in fact it was closer to 90% capacity. You are also mad because every argument you make is always wrong and backed up by others to prove you wrong. I dont even have to find facts anymore because others do it for me when its against you because everyone on this board knows you are an idiot!

Settle down you two. You can disagree without getting personal.

(wow, being a mod is awesome)

[StanUpshaw]

That's from the complaint. NOT the Constitution. Come up with a better argument.

Let me ask you this. In a publicly funded library, should the Religion section either 1: Be eliminated, or 2: be required to have an equal number of books about every religion in existence?

The "separation of religion and state" aspect of the Constitution can not be in totally black and white terms on a realistic level. It's impossible.

Given the amount of crosses and stuff that were at Ground Zero, isn't this complaint about 10 years too late?

Again, the demand for a lutheran cross decimates any argument this lawsuit may have

The same answer applies to both of you:

The problem is that they're endorsing one religion. The easiest solution would be to promote no religions. Alternatively, you would have to include monuments (or books, in the library example) from any religion that wished to be represented.

The museum rejected a the offer for a monument from the atheist group, and their cross evidently does not adequately represent the Lutheran faith. If a public library rejected books about atheism or lutheranism, they would get sued too.

[Snacks]

Again, yes. If anything are they not the first example of a set of laws that most people live by today? No killing? Lying? Stealing? They arent trying to convert people to religion, they are there as a symbol of law. I never got why people would get upset by that either.

Let me guess, it really bothers you when people say "Merry Christmas" too, huh?

I cant imagine how boring somebodies life has to be that this kind of shit upsets them enough for them to try and take action by complaining about it. If your life is that boring you should just end it.

I dont give 2 shits about a metal T that is nothing more then debris, it has no meaning of jesus or god etc. Same as with merry christmas, who really cares? If someone says merry christmas it means nothing and doesnt bother me. I hope you have the same hate for those fuckers that protest stores and corporations for using happy holidays?! Shouldnt they have the right to use that rather then merry xmas?

[spoon]

BTW, the Cross was on site and displayed at Ground Zero for *five years* before it was moved out of the way for construction. Where were the lawsuits then?

well there is a difference bt a construction site and where the cross will be going


oh and screw that Keithy, they're big boys let them grapple!

entertain me you fucks!

[StanUpshaw]

BTW, the Cross was on site and displayed at Ground Zero for *five years* before it was moved out of the way for construction. Where were the lawsuits then?

The museum funded by hundreds of millions of public dollars probably had something to do with it.

[spoon]

Given the amount of crosses and stuff that were at Ground Zero, isn't this complaint about 10 years too late?

Again, the demand for a lutheran cross decimates any argument this lawsuit may have

I'd be willing to bet they put that in there to help prove their point with a christian on christian theme and not make this atheist vs religion only.

[keithy_19]

well there is a difference bt a construction site and where the cross will be going


oh and screw that Keithy, they're big boys let them grapple!

entertain me you fucks!

I've obviously let this power go to my head. You just wait till I get drunk one night and change everyones mod quote to Sporadic Reverie. (http://keithradzion.wordpress.com/)

[spoon]

that would be something i whole heartily endorse

chaos is your friend, embrace it and my anger

[sailor]

The same answer applies to both of you:

The problem is that they're endorsing one religion. The easiest solution would be to promote no religions. Alternatively, you would have to include monuments (or books, in the library example) from any religion that wished to be represented.

The museum rejected a the offer for a monument from the atheist group, and their cross evidently does not adequately represent the Lutheran faith. If a public library rejected books about atheism or lutheranism, they would get sued too.

No, they're not. Again it's a museum. If there was a relic from the incident that had an atheist or Lutheran bent I'd assume they would have no issue including it.

[A.J.]

so do you really think that they "found" this cross versus made it during the salvage

bc to me it reeks of forcing religion down your throat as most do in times of trouble and sorrow

Makeshift memorials FTW!

[underdog]

Again, yes. If anything are they not the first example of a set of laws that most people live by today? No killing? Lying? Stealing? They arent trying to convert people to religion, they are there as a symbol of law. I never got why people would get upset by that either.

Let me guess, it really bothers you when people say "Merry Christmas" too, huh?

I cant imagine how boring somebodies life has to be that this kind of shit upsets them enough for them to try and take action by complaining about it. If your life is that boring you should just end it.

Your jump from not wanting the 10 commandments in government buildings to being bothered by people saying merry christmas is fucking retarded.

[underdog]

Right. They had to get the digs in that God didn't care and allowed the planes to crash, and then have the nerve to say it's OUR museum.

What?

[sailor]

Your jump from not wanting the 10 commandments in government buildings.

Not what he said.

[Syd]

No, they're not. Again it's a museum. If there was a relic from the incident that had an atheist or Lutheran bent I'd assume they would have no issue including it.

people already flip out about atheism being advertised on the sides of a bus or from a banner plane

The point is this is a tacit endorsement of religion by a government entity. That's unconstitutional, flat out, full stop, etc. The Lutheran bringing it up is an interesting point too, if we're going to have state-subsidized religion which Christian sect is going to be given the money? Catholic? Protestant? Orthodox? Mormon? What about the non-Abrahamic religions that have virtually no connection to Christianity. Should we just ignore the rest so people can sleep easy at night knowing that God was there when 2000 some odd people died? Which set off a chain reaction that led to the deaths of 100k+ more people? Because that doesn't sound like any God that should be represented, honestly.

[sailor]

The point is this is a tacit endorsement of religion by a government entity.

Again, it's not.

[StanUpshaw]

Yuh-huh

[TripleSkeet]

By exclusively endorsing Christianity (specifically the Catholic sect, according that Lutheran), they are obviously violating our rights.

Its not and your obviously just trolling now.

[TripleSkeet]

The same answer applies to both of you:

The problem is that they're endorsing one religion. The easiest solution would be to promote no religions. Alternatively, you would have to include monuments (or books, in the library example) from any religion that wished to be represented.

The museum rejected a the offer for a monument from the atheist group, and their cross evidently does not adequately represent the Lutheran faith. If a public library rejected books about atheism or lutheranism, they would get sued too.

See its your opinion they are endorsing a religion. But they really arent. They are putting up a piece of history thats shaped like a cross, or a lower case t. However you want to look at it. Just because you feel they are endorsing religion doesnt mean they are. This is why people tell those, like yourself, that complain about shit that is offensive in YOUR OPINION, to shut the fuck up.

[TripleSkeet]

Your jump from not wanting the 10 commandments in government buildings to being bothered by people saying merry christmas is fucking retarded.

No it isnt. Its the same thing. People being offended over stupid bullshit.

[StanUpshaw]

You understand we have a constitution, right?

And you realize that it includes an amendment that mandates a separation of church and state?

And you are at least vaguely aware that there's this thing called the judicial branch that decides on matters involving constitutional violations?

And that the Supreme Court has decades of rulings that prohibit displays like this?

[Tenbatsuzen]

You understand we have a constitution, right?

And you realize that it includes an amendment that mandates a separation of church and state?

And you are at least vaguely aware that there's this thing called the judicial branch that decides on matters involving constitutional violations?

And that the Supreme Court has decades of rulings that prohibit displays like this?

There is a separation of church and state here - the non-profit organization that is leasing the space from the PANYNJ to have the museum there.

There is no difference between what is going on at the 9/11 Memorial and a Holocaust Museum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Holocaust_Memorial_Museum

The whole Catholic/Lutheran cross thing is asinine. Again, it LOOKS like a Catholic Cross, but that goes back into the INTERPRETATION.

[Tenbatsuzen]

If you read up on the American Atheists, they are basically a group of trolls. Fantastic. In fact, their founder is the one who was suing over Aldrin taking communion on the moon.

Post script: Founder of the American Atheists was killed by a co-worker.

[Syd]

Again, it's not.

Again, it is. It's bad enough we give an oath to a guy who makes meticulous plans to kill 2000+ people in a terror attack to make people believe what we're saying in a courtroom or wherever else.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

The 1st ammendment forbids an official state religion but does not forbid an expression of religion.

We are not a christian nation but we are a nation of mostly christians.

[StanUpshaw]

If you read up on the American Atheists, they are basically a group of trolls. Fantastic. In fact, their founder is the one who was suing over Aldrin taking communion on the moon.

No one sued Buzz Aldrin. Are a super hero whose super power is always being wrong?

Post script: Founder of the American Atheists was killed by a co-worker.

What's your point?

[Tenbatsuzen]

No one sued Buzz Aldrin. Are a super hero whose super power is always being wrong?



Context. They sued over Apollo 8. Aldrin kept it secret to avoid anoter suit.

[Tenbatsuzen]

But according to a lawsuit filed by American Atheists, the cross's side effects include "dyspepsia, symptoms of depression, headaches, anxiety, and mental pain and anguish from the knowledge that they are made to feel officially excluded from the ranks of citizens who were directly injured by the 9/11 attack."

Why don't we have some of the survivor's families know what true pain is in this situation.

Again: US Holocaust Museum is funded by federal dollars. It's a historical event with a religious context.

[Dude!]

the kitchen of the
US Supreme Court
has kosher food available
for jews Breyer, Ginsburg and Kagan

this must stop

[StanUpshaw]

Why don't we have some of the survivor's families know what true pain is in this situation.

Again: US Holocaust Museum is funded by federal dollars. It's a historical event with a religious context.

Show me how they're endorsing Judaism and excluding any other religion, and I'm on board!

[StanUpshaw]

the kitchen of the
US Supreme Court
has kosher food available
for jews Breyer, Ginsburg and Kagan

this must stop

Show me how they're endorsing Judaism and excluding any other religion, and I'm on board!

[WRESTLINGFAN]

How about Muslim footbaths installed in Public universities with taxpayer dollars in Michigan

[foodcourtdruide]

Show me how they're endorsing Judaism and excluding any other religion, and I'm on board!

I'm with Stan here. Including "the cross" from ground zero is certainly a religious statement. The Holocaust Museum is to remember a historic event, it's a bad analogy. A better analogy would be if people were trying to prohibit the mention that muslim extremists were responsible for the attacks.

[Tenbatsuzen]

Show me how they're endorsing Judaism and excluding any other religion, and I'm on board!

You still haven't showed how the PANYNJ is endorsing Christianity.

You still haven't showed that the memorial is excluding other religions. Unless you know exactly what's in the museum, you can't say that for sure.

[StanUpshaw]

You still haven't showed how the PANYNJ is endorsing Christianity.

You still haven't showed that the memorial is excluding other religions. Unless you know exactly what's in the museum, you can't say that for sure.

We know their installation ceremony featured a blessing by a priest.

We know they ignored offers to include an atheistic monument.

[Tenbatsuzen]

We know their installation ceremony featured a blessing by a priest.

We know they ignored offers to include an atheistic monument.

Do you know for a fact that the PANYNJ did that, or was the priest invited outside of the official beaucracy?

And if there's a picture of the memorials that were outside of ground zero, for jews, etc. then that's not exclusionary. The cross is BIG, but you can't shrink it.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Am I missing something here?


Has the gov't officially recognized it as a christian symbol? I think that would be merit for a lawsuit other than that I see no controversy here

[TripleSkeet]

Again. Its not a cross. Its 2 pieces of metal from the WTC. YOU say its a cross because it furthers your agenda. There is no "church" in this church and state argument. And considering its a space leased out by the PANYNJ for a museum, theres no fucking "state" in your argument either.

They also arent "endorsing" Christianity. Again, just more of your OPINION.

[StanUpshaw]

http://www.911memorial.org/blog/911-memorial-president-joe-daniels-wtc-cross-part-history-updated

That's their official website. In their own words, they're calling it "the Cross." Not rubble.

In addition to the Cross, other religious artifacts that will be displayed in the 9/11 Memorial Museum's historical exhibition include a Star of David cut from World Trade Center steel and a Bible fused to a piece of steel that was found during the recovery effort.

It's abundantly clear that they consider it a religious artifact.

[StanUpshaw]

Again. Its not a cross. Its 2 pieces of metal from the WTC. YOU say its a cross because it furthers your agenda. There is no "church" in this church and state argument. And considering its a space leased out by the PANYNJ for a museum, theres no fucking "state" in your argument either.

They also arent "endorsing" Christianity. Again, just more of your OPINION.

The museum is funded with hundreds of millions in government funds. Hence, state.

Again, from their own website:

http://www.911memorial.org/public-private-partnership
A public-private partnership has been established to fund the National September 11 Memorial & Museum. In April 2008, the 9/11 Memorial was proud to reach its initial capital campaign goal of $350 million.

Additional funds needed to build the Memorial & Museum are provided by the Lower Manhattan Development Corporation ($250 million for the Memorial & Museum), the State of New York ($80 million for the full cost of the Museum Pavilion), and The Port Authority of New York & New Jersey.

[foodcourtdruide]

http://www.911memorial.org/blog/911-memorial-president-joe-daniels-wtc-cross-part-history-updated

That's their official website. In their own words, they're calling it "the Cross." Not rubble.



It's abundantly clear that they consider it a religious artifact.

I'm sorry to say it, but I really hate the lack of sincerity and willful ignorance by WF, TS and Tenbatz in this argument.

Why are you all saying, "Cross, what cross? This has nothing to do with religion" It's totally a religious symbol. If you think it's ok to have a religious symbol at ground zero, then just say so. But don't base your argument on some technicality that you know is BS.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I'm sorry to say it, but I really hate the lack of sincerity and willful ignorance by WF, TS and Tenbatz in this argument.

Why are you all saying, "Cross, what cross? This has nothing to do with religion" It's totally a religious symbol. If you think it's ok to have a religious symbol at ground zero, then just say so. But don't base your argument on some technicality that you know is BS.

I said that let people interpret it how they want. The 1st ammendment allows one to look it at as a piece of steel but someone else as a religious symbol.

No one will be forced to pray in front of it or look at it as a religious symbol.

As long as the government does not promote it as a christian symbol, theres no issue. Theres no technicality.

[foodcourtdruide]

I said that let people interpret it how they want. The 1st ammendment allows one to look it at as a piece of steel but someone else as a religious symbol.

No one will be forced to pray in front of it or look at it as a religious symbol.

As long as the government does not promote it as a christian symbol, theres no issue. Theres no technicality.

That's absurd. It IS a Christian symbol due to its origin and lore. So you wouldn't mind Koran's being put in school childrens desks, as long as teachers don't talk about it? Hey, it's just a religious book to Muslims. To a non-Muslim, it's a bunch of pieces of papers with words on them.

[spoon]

No one sued Buzz Aldrin. Are a super hero whose super power is always being wrong?



What's your point?

ok that floored me :lol:

Also, it's it's just a t, why does it have so much importance to christians and they want it in the museum?

[spoon]

the kitchen of the
US Supreme Court
has kosher food available
for jews Breyer, Ginsburg and Kagan

this must stop

just stop talking

[foodcourtdruide]

ok that floored me :lol:

Also, it's it's just a t, why does it have so much importance to christians and they want it in the museum?

It sets a precedence, spoony. A disproportionate amount of government money going to one type of religions monuments over another is a passive-aggressive way of declaring a religion in this country. It's funny, people are sooo worried about indoctrination until the indoctrination is of something they believe in.

[spoon]

That's absurd. It IS a Christian symbol due to its origin and lore. So you wouldn't mind Koran's being put in school childrens desks, as long as teachers don't talk about it? Hey, it's just a religious book to Muslims. To a non-Muslim, it's a bunch of pieces of papers with words on them.

I was just about to put something like this together to show how absurd WF's argument is. So every church is just a building with lots of "t's" in them and statues with guys who look like Chris Cornell's early days with Soundgarden. Deal with it right? Let's see how happy everyone would be if they tried to include a mosque in the museum? It's just another room with people on rugs on the floor pointed in one direction...heck, look at it as a beginners yoga class!

[spoon]

It sets a precedence, spoony. A disproportionate amount of government money going to one type of religions monuments over another is a passive-aggressive way of declaring a religion in this country. It's funny, people are sooo worried about indoctrination until the indoctrination is of something they believe in.

I agree, my post was a passive aggressive point paste on bread masked with in a thinly veiled sarcastic jab soup.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

That's absurd. It IS a Christian symbol due to its origin and lore. So you wouldn't mind Koran's being put in school childrens desks, as long as teachers don't talk about it? Hey, it's just a religious book to Muslims. To a non-Muslim, it's a bunch of pieces of papers with words on them.

As long as a private citizen and not the schoolboard/principal or administrator is doing it. The book can be read, or tossed aside into the garbage

[spoon]

love how you get a jab in there by saying it can also be tossed in the garbage

even in simple debate you seem to be completely biased at every turn

maybe it wasn't there for that reason and I'm reading into it too much, but I doubt it

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I was just about to put something like this together to show how absurd WF's argument is. So every church is just a building with lots of "t's" in them and statues with guys who look like Chris Cornell's early days with Soundgarden. Deal with it right? Let's see how happy everyone would be if they tried to include a mosque in the museum? It's just another room with people on rugs on the floor pointed in one direction...heck, look at it as a beginners yoga class!

Muslims didnt die on 9/11 ?

What if there was a piece of steel shaped like a crescent? Would there be the same argument?


Believe in what you prefer, or choose not to believe. It doesnt affect me. Just dont force it or have the government recognize it.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

love how you get a jab in there by saying it can also be tossed in the garbage

even in simple debate you seem to be completely biased at every turn

maybe it wasn't there for that reason and I'm reading into it too much, but I doubt it

Yes you are

Whose being biased? If that was the case Why would I say that a private citizen could put a Koran on the desk.


And I said that I have no problem with Park 51

[sailor]

That's absurd. It IS a Christian symbol due to its origin and lore. So you wouldn't mind Koran's being put in school childrens desks, as long as teachers don't talk about it? Hey, it's just a religious book to Muslims. To a non-Muslim, it's a bunch of pieces of papers with words on them.

Does anyone have a problem with them being in public libraries?

[spoon]

I said that let people interpret it how they want. The 1st ammendment allows one to look it at as a piece of steel but someone else as a religious symbol.

No one will be forced to pray in front of it or look at it as a religious symbol.

As long as the government does not promote it as a christian symbol, theres no issue. Theres no technicality.

In response to Foody's direct response to you,

I was just about to put something like this together to show how absurd WF's argument is. So every church is just a building with lots of "t's" in them and statues with guys who look like Chris Cornell's early days with Soundgarden. Deal with it right? Let's see how happy everyone would be if they tried to include a mosque in the museum? It's just another room with people on rugs on the floor pointed in one direction...heck, look at it as a beginners yoga class!

Muslims didnt die on 9/11 ?

What if there was a piece of steel shaped like a crescent? Would there be the same argument?


Believe in what you prefer, or choose not to believe. It doesnt affect me. Just dont force it or have the government recognize it.

WF, do you have split personalities or are you trying to do a retarded switcharoo? I believe the outcry would be WORSE and most would then be on board if they were trying to get a Muslim based religious symbol included "pulled" from the wreckage of ground zero. Oh and who ever said Muslims didn't die on 9/11? Your schizophrenic argument style is dizzying. Bottom line is your post LITERALLY read makes our point.

[StanUpshaw]

Does anyone have a problem with them being in public libraries?

There a fuckin echo in here?



The problem is that they're endorsing one religion. The easiest solution would be to promote no religions. Alternatively, you would have to include monuments (or books, in the library example) from any religion that wished to be represented.

The museum rejected a the offer for a monument from the atheist group, and their cross evidently does not adequately represent the Lutheran faith. If a public library rejected books about atheism or lutheranism, they would get sued too.

[spoon]

Does anyone have a problem with them being in public libraries?

Yes, bc there are no bibles or christian literature there as well right? Part of the lawsuit states they agree to pretty much drop the lawsuit if the cross isn't included or their (other involved in the tragedy) religious affiliations are included as well. It's pretty simple and the Celtic cross throw in there is very smart if you ask me. Very disarming for those of religious background who would love to just attack these people back as being idiotic atheists regardless of their point having merit.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

In response to Foody's direct response to you,





WF, do you have split personalities or are you trying to do a retarded switcharoo? I believe the outcry would be WORSE and most would then be on board if they were trying to get a Muslim based religious symbol included "pulled" from the wreckage of ground zero. Oh and who ever said Muslims didn't die on 9/11? Your schizophrenic argument style is dizzying. Bottom line is your post LITERALLY read makes our point.

I should have clarified it better, Meant to say dont force people to look to it as a cross.

Again for the christians its a religious symbol, to non believers a piece of steel.


Freedom of religion, freedom from religion. Whats the controversy?

[spoon]

I should have clarified it better, Meant to say dont force people to look to it as a cross.

Again for the christians its a religious symbol, to non believers a piece of steel.


Freedom of religion, freedom from religion

Come on WF, christians always shove their beliefs down everyone's throats. To this day there are missionaries around the world trying to gain followers in areas of need and let's not forget the Crusades. I simply can't take this "don't look at it as a cross" bs, if it's looked at as a cross by them and it's inclusion in the museum for that very reason. If it was just some piece of steel it would already be in a scrap yard and wouldn't hold so much value to them at this point.

It is amazing though how often christians will celebrate and pretty much worship images that resemble crosses or the image of Jesus or Mary. Just eat the chip you fucking loon!

[TripleSkeet]

I cant keep this argument up, its so fucking frustrating. Again like Matty said, its a puiece of iron, some people will look at it as a cross, some will think its a symbol from God, other people will think its a fucking piece of rubble from the WTC. Just like people that see Jesus in a piece of toast, others look and just see toast.

And like I said, anyone that has such a boring wasted life that they feel this is the fight that needs to be fought should just kill themselves. For real. Get a fucking life. They are no better then the jackoffs screaming about how gay marriage is a sin. If they want to put the cross there, I say let them. If it was a fucking jewish star or a crescent moon or anything else I still wouldnt care. Because none of it has any effect on my life or your life whatsoever. Its a piece of history regardless what shape it is.

This crying and bellyaching and whining about being sensitive to every pussy that comes along and gets their feelings hurt is why America as a country is going dowhill.

Nothing would make me happier then a judge throwing this out of court and telling these faggots to get lost. Of course Im sure the exact opposite will happen and theyll remove the cross, and these 4 assholes will jump for joy like they accomplished something and go back their shit lives of looking for something else to complain about.

[TripleSkeet]

One more question, for those that love to quote the Constitution and interpret it how they want to regarding church and state. If all this was exactly what they had in mind when the Constitution was written, why did it take 200 years before judges decided all of these examples were unconstitutional? If it was so obvious why wouldnt these changes have been made so much sooner? Talking about shit like nativity displays, 10 commandment statues, The word God on money or in the Pledge of Allegiance, etc. Just curious.

[Syd]

sometime between learning that black people weren't property and women could vote people put two and two together that America was a land of freedom, not some communist shithole that forced you to worship whatever bullshit a bunch of illegals dug out of the ground at a site where god killed 2000 people in his immaculate plan

[TripleSkeet]

sometime between learning that black people weren't property and women could vote people put two and two together that America was a land of freedom, not some communist shithole that forced you to worship whatever bullshit a bunch of illegals dug out of the ground at a site where god killed 2000 people in his immaculate plan

Ok, now show me how putting that cross in the museum forces you to worship ANYTHING.

[StanUpshaw]

One more question, for those that love to quote the Constitution and interpret it how they want to regarding church and state. If all this was exactly what they had in mind when the Constitution was written, why did it take 200 years before judges decided all of these examples were unconstitutional? If it was so obvious why wouldnt these changes have been made so much sooner? Talking about shit like nativity displays, 10 commandment statues, The word God on money or in the Pledge of Allegiance, etc. Just curious.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_God_We_Trust

"In God We Trust" was adopted as the official motto of the United States in 1956. It is also the motto of the U.S. state of Florida. The phrase has appeared on U.S. coins since 1864 and on paper currency since 1957.[1] Its Spanish equivalent, En Dios Confiamos, is the motto of the Central American nation of Nicaragua.[2]

The origin of the phrase is derived from the Bible; several psalms contain phrase or derivations of it (Psalms 20, Psalms 56, & Psalms 62, etc.) The phrase has been incorporated in many hymns and patriotic songs. The final stanza of The Star-Spangled Banner, written in 1814 by Francis Scott Key (and later adopted as the U.S. national anthem), contains an early reference to a variation of the phrase: "...And this be our motto: 'In God is our trust'."[3]

It was first used as a motto on coinage on the 1864 two-cent coin, followed in 1866 by the 5 cent nickel (1866–1883), quarter dollar, half dollar, silver dollar and gold dollars.[1][4] An 1865 law allowed the motto to be used on coins.[5] The use of the motto was permitted, but not required, by an 1873 law. While several laws come into play, the act of May 18, 1908,[6] is most often cited as requiring the motto (even though the cent and nickel were excluded from that law, and the nickel did not have the motto added until 1938). Since 1938, all coins have borne the motto.

On July 11, 1954, just one month after the phrase "under God" was incorporated into the Pledge of Allegiance,[7] the U.S. Congress enacted Public Law 84-140, which required the motto on all coins and currency. The law was approved by President Eisenhower on July 30, 1956, and the motto was progressively added to paper money over a period from 1957 to 1966.[1]

In 1956 the phrase was legally adopted as the United States' national motto by a law passed by the 84th United States Congress.(Public Law 84-851)",[8] and the United States Code at 36 U.S.C. § 302, now states: "'In God we trust' is the national motto."

[foodcourtdruide]

Does anyone have a problem with them being in public libraries?

Absolutely not, because of the purpose of public libraries.

[StanUpshaw]

Ok, now show me how putting that cross in the museum forces you to worship ANYTHING.

Show me where in the constitution, or in any of the subsequent supreme court decisions, that you must be "forced" into worship for your rights to have been violated.

[sailor]

Yes, bc there are no bibles or christian literature there as well right? Part of the lawsuit states they agree to pretty much drop the lawsuit if the cross isn't included or their (other involved in the tragedy) religious affiliations are included as well. It's pretty simple and the Celtic cross throw in there is very smart if you ask me. Very disarming for those of religious background who would love to just attack these people back as being idiotic atheists regardless of their point having merit.

Where are these religious items coming from? The only reason I don't have a problem with the cross and bible is due to their being artifacts from the site. If it was just some bible from some guy's house I'd agree it had no place in the memorial.

[TripleSkeet]

Show me where in the constitution, or in any of the subsequent supreme court decisions, that you must be "forced" into worship for your rights to have been violated.

Show me how this violates your rights! How???? Because your offended? Who the fuck are you or these assholes that their sensitivites dictate what goes up in a museum?? If you being offended because you see that as a cross means your rights have been violated, then guess what, Its time for a new system.

Who is in charge of this decision anyway? Whoever it is, it should be their decision, if they wanna put the cross up they should, and people should just have to shut the fuck up about it. And if they dont want to, fine thats cool too. I dont understand why anything they put up in this museum should have to be approved by you, or me, or anyone thats not in charge of it. Why cant people just mind their own fucking business?

[TripleSkeet]

Where are these religious items coming from? The only reason I don't have a problem with the cross and bible is due to their being artifacts from the site. If it was just some bible from some guy's house I'd agree it had no place in the memorial.

THIS.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Come on WF, christians always shove their beliefs down everyone's throats. To this day there are missionaries around the world trying to gain followers in areas of need and let's not forget the Crusades. I simply can't take this "don't look at it as a cross" bs, if it's looked at as a cross by them and it's inclusion in the museum for that very reason. If it was just some piece of steel it would already be in a scrap yard and wouldn't hold so much value to them at this point.

It is amazing though how often christians will celebrate and pretty much worship images that resemble crosses or the image of Jesus or Mary. Just eat the chip you fucking loon!

The rest of the world doesnt have a 1st ammendment. When was the last time somebody forced you to go to a church.


Enough with the line that its only Christians trying to coerce/convert or kill people.


So what if they worship those figures/statues. Are you being forced to?

Will you no longer stay at a Hyatt or Marriott? Gideons place bibles in the rooms. Non christians arent banned from staying there

One more time. Freedom of Religion, Freedom from religion

[TripleSkeet]

WF is right, Im sorry. The whole "seperation of church and state" was put together to stop religion from influencing laws. The best part is, people still vote for candidates that use religion all the time to try and make laws. Gay Marriage? Anti-abortion? Alot of the people crying for these laws do so from a religious standpoint.

The founding fathers didnt want people persecuted because of their religion. And Im sorry, but I just dont understand how a statue of the 10 commandments in a courthouse, or a cast iron beam in the shape of a cross inside a museum, or "In God we trust" on a $20 bill, does anything to persecute people of another faith or no faith at all. And if it was a statue of a Jewish star, or a menorrah, or hotels putting copies of the Koran in their nightstands, I would feel the same way.

Nobody tries to force people to follow a religion anymore. Thats just an excuse people use when they are crying trying to get their way.

[StanUpshaw]

Show me how this violates your rights! How???? Because your offended? Who the fuck are you or these assholes that their sensitivites dictate what goes up in a museum?? If you being offended because you see that as a cross means your rights have been violated, then guess what, Its time for a new system.

You really need to learn some history.

[StanUpshaw]

One more time. Freedom of Religion, Freedom from religion

One more time. Free exercise clause, Establishment clause.

[TripleSkeet]

You really need to learn some history.

Give me a lesson then, and answer my question. HOW does this violate your rights?

[Dan 'Hampton]

I'm offended by these "t" things in your posts. Refrain athiests.

[StanUpshaw]

Give me a lesson then, and answer my question. HOW does this violate your rights?

You really think it'll sink in this time?

[TripleSkeet]

You really think it'll sink in this time?

You just dont have one do you? Ill answer it for you. It DOESNT violate your rights, you dumb twat.

Im done with this ridiculous argument. The Eagles just signed Asomugha. Time to go tease my friends that are Cowboys fans.

[StanUpshaw]

You faggots who care about rights should just kill yourself. Now excuse me, I have to go watch grown men playing catch.

[Snacks]

We know their installation ceremony featured a blessing by a priest.

We know they ignored offers to include an atheistic monument.

seriously? then that does show something there!

[keithy_19]

Will you no longer stay at a Hyatt or Marriott? Gideons place bibles in the rooms. Non christians arent banned from staying there

One more time. Freedom of Religion, Freedom from religion

I stayed in a hotel one time where there was a Koran instead of a Bible. Didn't bother me one bit.

[keithy_19]

seriously? then that does show something there!

What does an atheist monument look like? If it's just not including God and religion than I've been to plenty of them. Some right in DC. Some 9/11 monuments now that I think about it. I believe the one in my town makes no mention of God.

[Syd]

The founding fathers didnt want people persecuted because of their religion. And Im sorry, but I just dont understand how a statue of the 10 commandments in a courthouse,

"I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; you shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and fourth generation of those who reject me, but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments."

So, oops, I just stepped into a courthouse that had some shit up about how if I don't believe in God I am going to be punished.

"You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not acquit anyone who misuses his name."

Oops, better not swear on the Bible to tell the truth because I will be in trouble.

"Observe the sabbath day and keep it holy, as the LORD your God commanded you. Six days you shall labor and do all your work. But the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God; you shall not do any work—you, or your son or your daughter, or your male or female slave, or your ox or your donkey, or any of your livestock, or the resident alien in your towns, so that your male and female slave may rest as well as you. Remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm; therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the sabbath day."

Oops, I work on Sundays. I am in trouble again.

Then there's the issue of the Jewish and Islam view of the Ten Commandments and that they don't apply at all to the non-Abrahamic religions of the world. Fuck them, though, most of the time they're swarthy and have funky names right? Gotta make sure we Jesus it up at every chance!

[keithy_19]

The ten commandments are some of the first 'laws' that were put in place. I find their presence in a courtroom to be a non issue. It's not like we're murdering people because they worship other gods. Nor are we punishing people who committ adultery.

But to be honest, I don't need them to be there either. Whatever. Not caring about stuff has become the best option I've found.

[Tenbatsuzen]

You faggots who care about rights should just kill yourself. Now excuse me, I have to go watch grown men playing catch.

maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnnn!!

[underdog]

Not what he said.

What?

No it isnt. Its the same thing. People being offended over stupid bullshit.

No, it's not. One violates our fucking constitution and the other is retarded and doesn't happen.

[booster11373]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/jul/29/wtc-cross-9-11-atheist


Why the WTC cross does not belong at the 9/11 memorial

On Wednesday 27 July, we at American Atheists filed a difficult case. We began a suit against the inclusion of the Christian cross at the World Trade Centre memorial. We knew this would potentially paint us as "unpatriotic"; we filed it anyway, because we are patriotic.

Our main concern here is equality: 9/11 was a faith-based American tragedy that affected everyone. However, the Christian community rallied around a T-joint they found in the rubble and secured what is, in effect, a sole representation in the memorial, for itself, to the exclusion of all other religions and philosophies. This is unfair to the hundreds of secular people who died on 9/11, as well as the hundreds more non-Christian theistic victims. We all deserve equal representation.

US and New York laws mandate that all people should be treated equally when public land or public money is used. Specifically, the New York Civil Rights Act states:

All persons within the jurisdiction of this state shall be entitled to the full and equal accommodations, advantages, facilities and privileges of any places of public accommodations, resort or amusement.

What we seek is any remedy that honours everyone equally, be they Christian, Muslim, Jew or atheist. This can either be done with a totally neutral memorial that concentrates on the tragedy and not religion, or one that allows everyone to put up a display of equal size and prominence. In the latter case, we have offered to pay for a display ourselves. If everyone is provided equal treatment, we will drop our lawsuit, because fair is fair.

The one thing we won't tolerate is Christianity getting a special treatment not afforded to us or anyone else. Christians can love and rally around whatever they wish, and if they wish to deify a piece of rubble, that's up to them, but that doesn't mean they get sole representation in the WTC memorial.

On Thursday, it was disclosed that a Star of David made (by humans, after the event) of rubble from the wreckage would also be included in the memorial. We see this as progress, because it acknowledges that these symbols are religious in nature (they had originally claimed the cross was "secular" – an argument that now seems to have been dropped). More inclusion is better than less, but this certainly underscores the need for a display representing the atheists, who far outnumber the Jews who died in the attack.

According to the law, all citizens would have the right to an equally sized memorial for their specific faith. This includes Muslims, who would undoubtedly want a representation, since their religion was involved, as well as Buddhists, Mormons, Wiccans and so on.

Of course, the easiest way to do this is simply to remove the religious artifacts and stick with the memorial that respects everyone equally by not singling any religion out for special treatment at all. The cross should be given to a church (via sale or lottery) and the memorial should be completely non-discriminatory.

We at American Atheists fight the unpopular fights because they are necessary. We seek equality and demand it when refused. Religious discrimination from the government is not allowed and must be contested, even when the majority is favoured. Indeed, especially so.

[booster11373]

We at American Atheists fight the unpopular fights because they are necessary. We seek equality and demand it when refused. Religious discrimination from the government is not allowed and must be contested, even when the majority is favoured. Indeed, especially so.

This is in the same boat as defending the Westboro nuts right to protest in front of funerals or the ACLU defending the KKK's right to march

[WRESTLINGFAN]

There is no separation of church and state in the constitution. It only prevents a state religion. I think the wall btwn church and state had to do with a letter Jefferson sent to the Danbury Baptists in 1802.

[StanUpshaw]

We at American Atheists fight the unpopular fights because they are necessary. We seek equality and demand it when refused. Religious discrimination from the government is not allowed and must be contested, even when the majority is favoured. Indeed, especially so.

This is in the same boat as defending the Westboro nuts right to protest in front of funerals or the ACLU defending the KKK's right to march

I am vehement in my support for the rights of those groups, too.

[StanUpshaw]

There is no separation of church and state in the constitution. It only prevents a state religion. I think the wall btwn church and state had to do with a letter Jefferson sent to the Danbury Baptists in 1802.

I jest checked this out, and I couldn't believe it, but he's right! The phrase "separation of church and state" DOES NOT APPEAR in the constitution! This changes everything! Thank you, wrestlingfan. I thank you from the bottom of my heart. You've opened my eyes to the truth.

[keithy_19]

We at American Atheists fight the unpopular fights because they are necessary. We seek equality and demand it when refused. Religious discrimination from the government is not allowed and must be contested, even when the majority is favoured. Indeed, especially so.

This is in the same boat as defending the Westboro nuts right to protest in front of funerals or the ACLU defending the KKK's right to march

I still just can't wrap my head around why this matters. Atheists are provided equality. This one symbol in the museum shouldn't be causing this much of an uproar.

[underdog]

We at American Atheists fight the unpopular fights because they are necessary. We seek equality and demand it when refused. Religious discrimination from the government is not allowed and must be contested, even when the majority is favoured. Indeed, especially so.

This is in the same boat as defending the Westboro nuts right to protest in front of funerals or the ACLU defending the KKK's right to march

What?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I jest checked this out, and I couldn't believe it, but he's right! The phrase "separation of church and state" DOES NOT APPEAR in the constitution! This changes everything! Thank you, wrestlingfan. I thank you from the bottom of my heart. You've opened my eyes to the truth.

Testify!!! Praise Jeeeeeeeezis Amen!!!!

[spoon]

The rest of the world doesnt have a 1st ammendment. When was the last time somebody forced you to go to a church.


Enough with the line that its only Christians trying to coerce/convert or kill people.


So what if they worship those figures/statues. Are you being forced to?

Will you no longer stay at a Hyatt or Marriott? Gideons place bibles in the rooms. Non christians arent banned from staying there

One more time. Freedom of Religion, Freedom from religion

Enough with putting words in my mouth bc I never once said "ONLY CHRISTIANS" are out there trying to convert or have a history or currently kill in the name of religion. Come on man, stick to the fucking point JUST ONCE!

My point there is a false idol tie-in, you know, against the rules of Christianity and that it's religion's ultimate advertisement/promotion, symbols and the art of expression through them. To say a cross has zero religious value and has no impact on what is being put in the museum overall just isn't true.

One more time, the Hyatt and Marriott can do what they choose based on your bumper sticker logic, but it's not the same. Go put the cross in the nearest Marriott and this issue is gone and the lawsuit disappears. I'm of a christian background too, but am big enough to see the issue here and don't need this "cross" in the museum to quench my religious thirst in the interest of holding to what is right in the grand scheme of things. If it's not a cross, why is it so important to have some salvaged I beams in the museum? We know why...YOU know why.

[spoon]

What we seek is any remedy that honours everyone equally, be they Christian, Muslim, Jew or atheist. This can either be done with a totally neutral memorial that concentrates on the tragedy and not religion, or one that allows everyone to put up a display of equal size and prominence. In the latter case, we have offered to pay for a display ourselves. If everyone is provided equal treatment, we will drop our lawsuit, because fair is fair.


Of course, the easiest way to do this is simply to remove the religious artifacts and stick with the memorial that respects everyone equally by not singling any religion out for special treatment at all. The cross should be given to a church (via sale or lottery) and the memorial should be completely non-discriminatory.


To me, the faster we get religion further from our public debate, congress, senate and the presidency the better. The positive this atheist group can bring is just that and perhaps we can move past issues such as those TS mentioned with abortion, assisted suicide, gay marriage and sooooo much more. If anything, this is a small issue tied to religion being favored and hopefully it'll help the overall issue this country has with it. It's amazing how religion has been used as a tool for centuries to control people at every turn, and it seemingly won't cease in my lifetime.

[Dirtbag]

Eight pages of going in circles. You guys tired yet?

[keithy_19]

If it's not a cross, why is it so important to have some salvaged I beams in the museum? We know why...YOU know why.

Because those salvaged beams became an iconic image of 9/11. However you want to spin it this is true.

[StanUpshaw]

If the US Department of Veteran affairs is any guide, they will need to install an additional 47 monuments.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_Veterans_Affairs_emble ms_for_headstones_and_markers






If I was a soldier, I'd totally get the DDP hands on my headstone.

[sailor]

I jest checked this out, and I couldn't believe it, but he's right! The phrase "separation of church and state" DOES NOT APPEAR in the constitution! This changes everything! Thank you, wrestlingfan. I thank you from the bottom of my heart. You've opened my eyes to the truth.

Apology accepted.

[spoon]

Because those salvaged beams became an iconic image of 9/11. However you want to spin it this is true.

So then let's just trash those and take any other piece ... oh wait, that'll be there too. It's an icon all right, a religious icon made of 9/11 debris.

[keithy_19]

So then let's just trash those and take any other piece ... oh wait, that'll be there too. It's an icon all right, a religious icon made of 9/11 debris.

But it's still an icon. If there was anything offensive about it I would understand people wanting it to not be shown. But there is absolutely nothing offensive about it.

I have never once gone somewhere and seen a symbol for a religion I don't adhere to and been offended. This "religious" piece shouldn't offend anyone.

[StanUpshaw]

But it's still an icon. If there was anything offensive about it I would understand people wanting it to not be shown. But there is absolutely nothing offensive about it.

I have never once gone somewhere and seen a symbol for a religion I don't adhere to and been offended. This "religious" piece shouldn't offend anyone.

Your apathy and complacency are not really relevant.

The only thing that matters is whether or not this constitutes an endorsement of religion.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Enough with putting words in my mouth bc I never once said "ONLY CHRISTIANS" are out there trying to convert or have a history or currently kill in the name of religion. Come on man, stick to the fucking point JUST ONCE!

My point there is a false idol tie-in, you know, against the rules of Christianity and that it's religion's ultimate advertisement/promotion, symbols and the art of expression through them. To say a cross has zero religious value and has no impact on what is being put in the museum overall just isn't true.

One more time, the Hyatt and Marriott can do what they choose based on your bumper sticker logic, but it's not the same. Go put the cross in the nearest Marriott and this issue is gone and the lawsuit disappears. I'm of a christian background too, but am big enough to see the issue here and don't need this "cross" in the museum to quench my religious thirst in the interest of holding to what is right in the grand scheme of things. If it's not a cross, why is it so important to have some salvaged I beams in the museum? We know why...YOU know why.


Im not trying to put words into your mouth but you posted earlier that christians are always trying to shove religion down throats and they have worldwide ministries/missions
It sounds like you take issue with that, maybe im reading into it too much

[foodcourtdruide]

Because those salvaged beams became an iconic image of 9/11. However you want to spin it this is true.

They are iconic to RELIGIOUS people, because it is a RELIGIOUS symbol.

[TripleSkeet]

They are iconic to RELIGIOUS people, because it is a RELIGIOUS symbol.

So I guess when people find what they think is a picture of Jesus in their french toast, this automatically makes the french toast a religious symbol too right?

The best part is, if these people get their way and they take the cross, the jewish star made out of rubble and everything else taken out of the museum that could be interpreted at all as religious....the only group truly represented are the atheists.

Just like everything else they only give a fuck about their own agenda. Its like non-smokers that are for banning smoking in outdoor public places, it benefits their agenda so they are for it.

And by the way, NOBODY has STILL given me an example of HOW their rights are violated if this cross goes up. Not ONE example.

[TripleSkeet]

So, oops, I just stepped into a courthouse that had some shit up about how if I don't believe in God I am going to be punished.



Oops, better not swear on the Bible to tell the truth because I will be in trouble.



Oops, I work on Sundays. I am in trouble again.

Then there's the issue of the Jewish and Islam view of the Ten Commandments and that they don't apply at all to the non-Abrahamic religions of the world. Fuck them, though, most of the time they're swarthy and have funky names right? Gotta make sure we Jesus it up at every chance!

Again, a statue of the 10 Commandments is a symbol of some of the first laws mankind made. Its a symbol. They dont follow them in court. They dont hold citizens to every one of them. Its pretty much just a statue. The same way a museum about racial integration would have a statue of Jackie Robinson as a symbol.

The statue doesnt need to be there. But if they are there, it doesnt effect anyone either. The reason people complain about them is the same reason they complain about this cross. They cry that their rights are being violated, because if they said the truth, the real reason they bitch about this stuff, they would like whiny babies. Their real argument is basically "I dont want to have to look at it." Grown men and women using an argument my 3 year old would give.

[StanUpshaw]

And by the way, NOBODY has STILL given me an example of HOW their rights are violated if this cross goes up. Not ONE example.

I have dyspepsia.

[Syd]

Again, a statue of the 10 Commandments is a symbol of some of the first laws mankind made. Its a symbol. They dont follow them in court. They dont hold citizens to every one of them. Its pretty much just a statue. The same way a museum about racial integration would have a statue of Jackie Robinson as a symbol.

The statue doesnt need to be there. But if they are there, it doesnt effect anyone either. The reason people complain about them is the same reason they complain about this cross. They cry that their rights are being violated, because if they said the truth, the real reason they bitch about this stuff, they would like whiny babies. Their real argument is basically "I dont want to have to look at it." Grown men and women using an argument my 3 year old would give.

No, if it was about some of the first laws mankind made it'd be the Code of Hammurabi up there which predates the Old Testament by many, many centuries.

It's about proselytizing. There's no reason to have the Ten Commandments up but not the Code of Hammurabi or the Roman laws described in the Twelve Tables.

And yes, the real argument is that I don't want to have to look at it on government property. The same way I don't want gun rights to be infringed upon or the right to privacy to be infringed upon.

What if they found a crescent shape in there and put it up? The streets would be strewn with hoverounds and Gadsden flags. People just want to believe in whatever bullshit and want to force it on others. That's typical of Christianity (and Islam) that seeks to proselytize others and to do so at every chance. Fuck any religious displays in general, but especially those of religions that want to convert you since otherwise you're "flawed". They can do that on their own property without it being state sanctioned.

[A.J.]

I say put it there as a monument to stupidity.

[foodcourtdruide]

So I guess when people find what they think is a picture of Jesus in their french toast, this automatically makes the french toast a religious symbol too right?

The best part is, if these people get their way and they take the cross, the jewish star made out of rubble and everything else taken out of the museum that could be interpreted at all as religious....the only group truly represented are the atheists.

Just like everything else they only give a fuck about their own agenda. Its like non-smokers that are for banning smoking in outdoor public places, it benefits their agenda so they are for it.

And by the way, NOBODY has STILL given me an example of HOW their rights are violated if this cross goes up. Not ONE example.

Because this country is supposed to have a separation between church and state. "The Cross" is clearly a religious symbol and it's inclusion is a symbol of the U.S. Government giving value to a religious belief. If the government truly saw this as several beams, then why on earth would it be on display? The government treating it as something more is an admission that Christianity has a value over other religions, which is very dangerous.

And it not being included is not a win for atheism, it's a win for everything that wants religious symbols out of government.

I know you disagree with this, but I hope you understand this is the concern of myself and others. Your comparisons with it to anti-smoker laws really make no sense.

[TripleSkeet]

What if they found a crescent shape in there and put it up? The streets would be strewn with hoverounds and Gadsden flags. People just want to believe in whatever bullshit and want to force it on others. That's typical of Christianity (and Islam) that seeks to proselytize others and to do so at every chance. Fuck any religious displays in general, but especially those of religions that want to convert you since otherwise you're "flawed". They can do that on their own property without it being state sanctioned.

I would have no problem with that. If the director of the museum decides to put up a crescent moon, or a cross, or a Superman symbol, I dont understand how its my business or your business or the business of these 4 assholes to say they shouldnt be allowed.

To me its the same thing as forcing people to believe what you want them to. And I fucking hate that to. I just dont see how putting up a cross, or a statue, or a moon or a star or whatever FORCES anyone to actually follow that religion. Its just a display inside of a museum.

And by the way, EVERY religion considers those outside of it to be "flawed". I think you and I both agree that we wouldnt want to be bothered by people trying to convert us to their religion, right? I have no problem with religious people, but its YOUR religion, as long as you dont keep trying to force ME to join in, pray and worship as you see fit. Well I see it the same way with people that say "I shouldnt have to look at that." Whether its a statue, a nativity scene, a menorrah, a cross, whatever. If its just standing there, not doing anything to you. Not trying to convert you or preach to you or harrass you, why cant you just leave it alone and go about your day?

See this is why I hate atheists. Many of them are as passionate or MORE passionate about denouncing religion as religious people are about converting others. And thats just as bad. To me if youre a true atheist, seeing a religious symbol should mean nothing to you. If you truly believe theres no such thing as God, then seeing a statue of a cross should bother you as much as seeing the Rocky statue. If anything I would laugh at those people for worshipping something I consider to be as real as Spider-Man.

[foodcourtdruide]

I would have no problem with that. If the director of the museum decides to put up a crescent moon, or a cross, or a Superman symbol, I dont understand how its my business or your business or the business of these 4 assholes to say they shouldnt be allowed.



It's not being placed on private land. That is why its not a private matter.

[TripleSkeet]

It's not being placed on private land. That is why its not a private matter.

Yea, I get why they have a RIGHT to complain, I just dont get why its any of their business. Live and Let Live was a great way to go through life. A way this country is getting further and further away from.

[StanUpshaw]

I would have no problem with that. If the director of the museum decides to put up a crescent moon, or a cross, or a Superman symbol, I dont understand how its my business or your business or the business of these 4 assholes to say they shouldnt be allowed.

To me its the same thing as forcing people to believe what you want them to. And I fucking hate that to. I just dont see how putting up a cross, or a statue, or a moon or a star or whatever FORCES anyone to actually follow that religion. Its just a display inside of a museum.

And by the way, EVERY religion considers those outside of it to be "flawed". I think you and I both agree that we wouldnt want to be bothered by people trying to convert us to their religion, right? I have no problem with religious people, but its YOUR religion, as long as you dont keep trying to force ME to join in, pray and worship as you see fit. Well I see it the same way with people that say "I shouldnt have to look at that." Whether its a statue, a nativity scene, a menorrah, a cross, whatever. If its just standing there, not doing anything to you. Not trying to convert you or preach to you or harrass you, why cant you just leave it alone and go about your day?

See this is why I hate atheists. Many of them are as passionate or MORE passionate about denouncing religion as religious people are about converting others. And thats just as bad. To me if youre a true atheist, seeing a religious symbol should mean nothing to you. If you truly believe theres no such thing as God, then seeing a statue of a cross should bother you as much as seeing the Rocky statue. If anything I would laugh at those people for worshipping something I consider to be as real as Spider-Man.

Your problem is that you can't see past your own biases. You understand that this is a legal question, right? It doesn't matter if you think they're being hypersensitive pussies. Whether or not this jibes with your moral sensibilities, the question is whether or not it violates the law. Can you even comprehend that?

[StanUpshaw]

Aren't you a Truther anyway?

Shouldn't you be more angry at the farce of the government memorializing all those people they killed?

[TripleSkeet]

Your problem is that you can't see past your own biases. You understand that this is a legal question, right? It doesn't matter if you think they're being hypersensitive pussies. Whether or not this jibes with your moral sensibilities, the question is whether or not it violates the law. Can you even comprehend that?

No, even if it does violate the law, the only reason its an issue is because people are being hypersensitive pussies. Any person with a half of a life wouldnt give a fuck.

[TripleSkeet]

Aren't you a Truther anyway?

Shouldn't you be more angry at the farce of the government memorializing all those people they killed?

Im not a truther I just believe everything the government feeds me as gospel. I know its considered unpatriotic to be a free thinker these days, but then again, I really dont give a shit if people think Im unpatriotic.

Also, like I said, I have a life so I wouldnt get angry about the government memorializing anybody.

[StanUpshaw]

Free thinker? You watched Loose change you dope.

[TripleSkeet]

Free thinker? You watched Loose change you dope.

No I didnt.

And I dont see how watching a movie makes somebody not a free thinker anyway.

[StanUpshaw]

You regurgitate truther arguments verbatim. Wherever you got them, it shows that whatever goes on inside that pea brain of yours is the opposite of free thought.

[disneyspy]

do you really need to use childish name calling to discuss a point?

[StanUpshaw]

do you really need to use childish name calling to discuss a point?

When my point is that skeet's a mongoloid, I do.

[disneyspy]

When my point is that skeet's a mongoloid, I do.

if you saw how he could pick NFL games against the spread you wouldnt think so,he's a fuckin guru

[TripleSkeet]

You regurgitate truther arguments verbatim. Wherever you got them, it shows that whatever goes on inside that pea brain of yours is the opposite of free thought.

I regurgitate points? Youve argued in this thread for 4 pages and still have not answered my one simple question. HOW THE FUCK HAS THIS VIOLATED YOUR RIGHTS YOU FUCKING CRYBABY CUNTRAG????????????? Answer the question or just stop posting.

sailor, I tried. She wouldnt stop. Do what you gotta.

[disneyspy]

simmer down

[StanUpshaw]

I regurgitate points? Youve argued in this thread for 4 pages and still have not answered my one simple question. HOW THE FUCK HAS THIS VIOLATED YOUR RIGHTS YOU FUCKING CRYBABY CUNTRAG????????????? Answer the question or just stop posting.

sailor, I tried. She wouldnt stop. Do what you gotta.

If the government does something illegal, that violates ALL of our rights. Golly, you're dim.

[Syd]

I regurgitate points? Youve argued in this thread for 4 pages and still have not answered my one simple question. HOW THE FUCK HAS THIS VIOLATED YOUR RIGHTS YOU FUCKING CRYBABY CUNTRAG????????????? Answer the question or just stop posting.

sailor, I tried. She wouldnt stop. Do what you gotta.

it's an endorsement of religion by a government entity which is, and has been, considered unconstitutional. The only reason people don't give a shit is because it's "their team" infringing rights. The same way the Republican voters were totally ok with Bush having infringed on privacy rights because he was a good ol' boy. Just because you're ok with something being unconstitutional doesn't make it legally ok. Sorry that you're so apathetic about your patriotism that you're fine with this.

[TripleSkeet]

it's an endorsement of religion by a government entity which is, and has been, considered unconstitutional. The only reason people don't give a shit is because it's "their team" infringing rights. The same way the Republican voters were totally ok with Bush having infringed on privacy rights because he was a good ol' boy. Just because you're ok with something being unconstitutional doesn't make it legally ok. Sorry that you're so apathetic about your patriotism that you're fine with this.

"Their team" yet I dont see Jews, Muslims, Buddhist, Hindus or any other religious groups complaining. Like I said, atheists are the ones trying to get this taken down so THEIR TEAM is the only one getting their way. Nobody else cares.

And heres a question, if they lose this lawsuit and the court says theres nothing wrong with it, does it suddenly not violate your rights anymore?

[TripleSkeet]

If the government does something illegal, that violates ALL of our rights. Golly, you're dim.

Youre retarded. Im done with you. Again, it hasnt been judged top be illegal, so basically youre waiting for a court to decide whether your rights have been violated or not.

[StanUpshaw]

I think this might help you:

<iframe width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/gLQg7G3hkGY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Sue_Bender]

I think this might help you:

<iframe width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/gLQg7G3hkGY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

This does clear a lot of things up.


Thank you!

[StanUpshaw]

<iframe width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Q_TXJRZ4CFc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[foodcourtdruide]

"Their team" yet I dont see Jews, Muslims, Buddhist, Hindus or any other religious groups complaining. Like I said, atheists are the ones trying to get this taken down so THEIR TEAM is the only one getting their way. Nobody else cares.

And heres a question, if they lose this lawsuit and the court says theres nothing wrong with it, does it suddenly not violate your rights anymore?

Why does who's bringing the argument matter? I'm not an atheist, and I believe this violates the separation of church and state. You asked why people care, and how it's infringing on our rights and I think we've answered.

Syd put it perfectly, because:

it's an endorsement of religion by a government entity

[Tenbatsuzen]

Why does who's bringing the argument matter? I'm not an atheist, and I believe this violates the separation of church and state. You asked why people care, and how it's infringing on our rights and I think we've answered.

Syd put it perfectly, because:

it's an endorsement of religion by a government entity

IT IS *NOT* AN ENDORSEMENT BECAUSE IT'S A MUSEUM.

By definition:

"A museum is an institution that houses and cares for a collection of artifacts and other objects of scientific, artistic, or historical importance and makes them available for public viewing through exhibits that may be permanent or temporary."

When you are dealing with art or a HISTORICAL RECORD, which this IS, it's a completely different set of rules.

And as we've already said, there will be other representations of faiths.

It's a trolling lawsuit for the sake of trolling.

[spoon]

Your problem is that you can't see past your own biases. You understand that this is a legal question, right? It doesn't matter if you think they're being hypersensitive pussies. Whether or not this jibes with your moral sensibilities, the question is whether or not it violates the law. Can you even comprehend that?

Not to mention the simple fact it DOES set some very bad precedent. What would be the next step for those of any religious faith, much less those we speak of now which represents the vast majority of religious people in this country. The sad thing is, the biggest group in the religious demographic breakdown is pretty much the usually unseen/unheard of atheist and agnostic groups.

Do you really think those on the religious right wouldn't LIKE to include more of their religious beliefs if they could and we all just let it happen? This is bigger than the actual issue at hand or moment in front of you. It's a fight that has been going on since day one in the US, but our forefathers actually saw past the crutch for the better of the nation before them. Let's not piss on that to simply not be pussies in your eyes. In fact, just allowing this to me would be the pussy move. As they said in the lawsuit, it's not a move that most will look at in a favorable light, but it's the right one and that's what they stand for. Either all are included or none. They, as do I, prefer the latter but the point must be made or perhaps we'll have to swear on a bible before entering, pledge to God at the "t" and say in God we trust after they play a 9/11 tribute film.

I was just at Pearl Harbor and I didn't see one religious artifact at all. Is it right or wrong, you tell me. Yet to pay my respects I surely don't need others beliefs to put forward over someone else's. That a generic statement, not meant to be about me specifically.

[Syd]

No, it's a religious symbol for the specific sake of being a religious symbol that's being touted as "GOD WAS HERE" meanwhile back in reality, people actually give a shit about their rights whether or not they agree with it. You shouldn't lick boot heels just because you like the flavor from it. Then again, that's typical of the pussification of America.

[spoon]

do you really need to use childish name calling to discuss a point?

yes you fuck!

what are you some sort of geriatric idiot?

RF.net Rules of Debate

#1 - Curse
#2 - Insult
#3 - Repeat
#4 - Win

[spoon]

if you saw how he could pick NFL games against the spread you wouldnt think so,he's a fuckin guru

He sucks!

<-This guy rf.net pick'em 2010 :king:

[CHUCKWAGONCOOK]

yes you fuck!

what are you some sort of geriatric idiot?

RF.net Rules of Debate

#1 - Curse
#2 - Insult
#3 - Repeat
#4 - Win
How does a fella get to #4 if you are constantly repeating #1 and #2?

[spoon]

"Their team" yet I dont see Jews, Muslims, Buddhist, Hindus or any other religious groups complaining. Like I said, atheists are the ones trying to get this taken down so THEIR TEAM is the only one getting their way. Nobody else cares.

And heres a question, if they lose this lawsuit and the court says theres nothing wrong with it, does it suddenly not violate your rights anymore?

TS, the lawsuit is in the name of the Atheist to make a point, but being filed by two Jewish, one Christian and more. I can't recall it all, but yes other religions are involved in this.

[spoon]

How does a fella get to #4 if you are constantly repeating #1 and #2?

Someone sees a point in my enlightened joke!

I'm not on your nude council for nothing my friend!

[twiggy148]

This sounds to me like they have nothing better to bitch about so why not go for the one thing that will get them and their cause in the spotlight. Enough with this religious or lack-of bullshit!

[spoon]

TS, the lawsuit is in the name of the Atheist to make a point, but being filed by two Jewish, one Christian and more. I can't recall it all, but yes other religions are involved in this.

According to the complaint, two of the four plaintiffs were raised in "the Jewish tradition" and one has a "Catholic background." The fourth is the brother of a Marine reservist who did rescue work for two weeks after the attacks and died in 2005 of "weakened lung syndrome." He opposes a cross unless it is a Lutheran cross.

Here it is.

[TripleSkeet]

Here it is.

Yea I saw that. I thought it meant those 2 were raised Jewish and are now atheists. Same with the catholic guy. Most atheists today were not brought up that way, ya know?

DSpy, I just noticed that football guru comment. Nice. :drunk:

[spoon]

Yea I saw that. I thought it meant those 2 were raised Jewish and are now atheists. Same with the catholic guy. Most atheists today were not brought up that way, ya know?

DSpy, I just noticed that football guru comment. Nice. :drunk:

If you're a football guru that must make me a GOD.

Now I want that cross in so you can worship and recognize!

[underdog]

No, even if it does violate the law, the only reason its an issue is because people are being hypersensitive pussies. Any person with a half of a life wouldnt give a fuck.

This might be the dumbest thing I've ever read on this site.

if you saw how he could pick NFL games against the spread you wouldnt think so,he's a fuckin guru

He really likes black QBs, too.