my first NYC visit

[Patient zer0]

Hey guys,
I'm visiting NYC this weekend.

I'm wondering what I should check out that's off the beaten path when I arrive. I plan to do one day that is the typical tourist thing.

But I'd like to see parts of NY that you wouldn't typically see when partaking in the wholesome tourist walkabouts/bus rides.


Thanks budddays!

[instrument]

Hey guys,
I'm visiting NYC this weekend.

I'm wondering what I should check out that's off the beaten path when I arrive. I plan to do one day that is the typical tourist thing.

But I'd like to see parts of NY that you wouldn't typically see when partaking in the wholesome tourist walkabouts/bus rides.


Thanks budddays!

go to hoboken and catch a show at maxwells....

also go see that cake boss dude, he's over there n shit too.

[Furtherman]

go to hoboken and catch a show at maxwells....

also go see that cake boss dude, he's over there n shit too.

Maxwell's (http://maxwellsnj.com/)

Yes.



Cake Boss? No.

You stand in line for hours with hundreds of other rubes only to walk in a very small bakery and get an overpriced t-shirt.

[Gutter]

Head Downtown and check out Stone St. just south of Wall st. some cool bars and a great pizzeria down there as well as an awesome Mexican spot. Some of the oldest streets and buildings in the entire city.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Street_(Manhattan)

[Kevin]

Harlem, South Yonkers and South Bronx at 3am are beautiful places to be in.


Just remember to dress with the most expensive stuff that you have,

Otherwise they will not look highly upon you...

[Snoogans]

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRXtf2XiFfRcFBPbNFhQdhXwJ9YFEkB_ E-_e9NbNeZOJNAsFIlrEw

[indymike]

Hey guys,
I'm visiting NYC this weekend.

I'm wondering what I should check out that's off the beaten path when I arrive. I plan to do one day that is the typical tourist thing.

But I'd like to see parts of NY that you wouldn't typically see when partaking in the wholesome tourist walkabouts/bus rides.


Thanks budddays!

I did the comedy cellar the last time I was out there a couple years ago - not sure if that is considered 'off the beaten path' but it was interesting and always the chance you'll see someone you know from 202 errr 105....

[CountryBob]

Molly's Cupcakes?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I advise visiting the high line. Its a converted elevated railway turned into a park. Heres more 411 on it



http://www.thehighline.org/

[Gutter]

I advise visiting the high line. Its a converted elevated railway turned into a park. Heres more 411 on it



http://www.thehighline.org/

hell yea, i want to check that out myself. they filmed a scene for Louie there.

[disneyspy]

carolines is on my list for next time i go

[Patient zer0]

thanks everyone!
keep 'em comming!


Lombardi's or Grimmaldi's for za?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

If you want a good steak I recommend Smith and Wollenskys 47th and 3rd. Pricey but what the hell youre on vaca

NYC has tons of Museums but if youre into modern art like Warhol the Museum of Modern art on 53rd is the place to go

[Gutter]

carolines is on my list for next time i go

that place is awesome. expensive, but lots of fun. when you do make your reservations for whenever you go, have dinner there. Eating there gets you priority seating for the show. turns a $200 visit into a $400 visit, but its worth it.

[sailor]

If you want a good steak I recommend Smith and Wollenskys 47th and 3rd. Pricey but what the hell youre on vaca

NYC has tons of Museums but if youre into modern art like Warhol the Museum of Modern art on 53rd is the place to go

I'd definitely take the train to Brooklyn for Luger's.

[Manning, Esq.]

My vote goes toward irony: In the place where you can potentially do just about anything that the Modern World offers, do as little as possible. Simply walk. Get the most comfortable shoes you can, and hit the bricks.

Truly, the best times, most interesting sights, and best education I've gotten from the Empire State's gem of an island came from just clicking a few miles on the old pedometer. I've never felt in harm's way, even while checking out the "other side" of things up around, say, 176th; maybe fewer dollars changing hands than down low, but just as interesting of trades people.

[CountryBob]

I'd definitely take the train to Brooklyn for Luger's.

Would that be Peter Luger's? If so, I want to go there someday - I had a box of the steak sauce delivered last year and it was so damn good on a fillet.

[sailor]

Would that be Peter Luger's? If so, I want to go there someday - I had a box of the steak sauce delivered last year and it was so damn good on a fillet.

Yeah, best steak I've ever had. Not a fan of the sauce tho. Apparently they have a great, cheap lunch burger but I've always gone with the steak for two (everyone knows this, but always get the steak for two, not 1 or 3 - you get a whole porterhouse rather than pieces).

[Patient zer0]

my dad has recommened Peter Luger's

As im not sure what meal we want to pick as our "Expensive one" im still holding out on what you suggest.

we plan to keep all the other meals as pedestrian as we can, get some real pizza, Katz's deli is a must for me!

we also want to hit an italian resto and maybe have some chinese.

im not wanting to spend a fortune on this trip as it was really last minute spurr of the moment idea i had yesterday since its a long weeked for us canadians.


im only in town from Saturday leaving tuesday at some point.


Is Coney Island worth the ride over to see?
since im so limited on time, we dont want to get tied up at one "sight" for too long.

kinda hit the stops and move on

[Patient zer0]

ive been recommended ;

BLT STEAK

PETER LUGER'S

CRAFT STEAKHOUSE

point me in the right direction my people.

one expensive dinner.

and two dinners at a real ny spot. no chain resto's

prefferably One italian and not sure what else.

[fezident]

There's a funky little place on The Lower East side called THE YAFFA CAFE.
I bring people there all the time. They always dig the food... and the vibe.

http://maps.google.com/maps/place?oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=yaffa+cafe&fb=1&gl=us&hq=yaffa+cafe&hnear=0x89c24fa5d33f083b:0xc80b8f06e177fe62,New+Yo rk,+NY&cid=2719676267135632988&ei=6D9dTumeDIOFtgfk5ODTAw&sa=X&oi=local_result&ct=photo-link&cd=3&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQnwIoAjAA

[sailor]

Yeah, Katz's is the best. Personally I prefer their corned beef to their pastrami, but they'll also let you sample a piece. I'm also a big fan of the Edison cafe at the Edison hotel 46th and broadway for an old-school, non-fancy lunch diner. Their matzoh ball soup is my favorite meal in the whole city. Not a fan of their breakfast tho.

[Gutter]

ive been recommended ;

BLT STEAK

PETER LUGER'S

CRAFT STEAKHOUSE

point me in the right direction my people.

one expensive dinner.

and two dinners at a real ny spot. no chain resto's

prefferably One italian and not sure what else.


for Italian.....

Trattoria TreColori. I've been here twice and it was fantastic both times. amazing food, knowledgeable staff, and not too expensive. right on 47th street in the theater district which means its right by times square....lots to look at, lots of action, tons of after dinner spots....great jump off point to leave the restaurant from and take a stroll.

http://www.trattoriatrecolori.com/

[Snacks]

Italian: I would say il cortile in Little Italy, my fav place in NYC. You can eat inside or out and the menu is excellent and affordable.
But if you want a touristy place that has family style Carmines on 44th is great for what it is. Its right off Broadway and you get huge family style meals to share!

Steak: IMO I hate Peter Lugers. I have been there twice and thought it was ok at best and the place itself is a dump! Smith and Wollensky great or Del Frisco's AWESOME but very expensive!

One of my fav places to get a snack in the city used to be a place Called Fritz Frites, it was on broadway somewhere between the upper 40s and lower 50s. Anyway it was a small place that that sold french fries only nothing else. They were great but after a few years they were gone. Now another place similar to Fritzs opened up called Pommes Frites on the lower east side. Similar idea and just as tatsy but Im never on the east side so I havent had them in a year maybe even longer.

There are so many places to go and see and so many places to eat. Try something different while you are here and might be surprised! If you are walking around and see a little place and want a snack give it a try you might find your own little fav snack!

[Snacks]

for Italian.....

Trattoria TreColori. I've been here twice and it was fantastic both times. amazing food, knowledgeable staff, and not too expensive. right on 47th street in the theater district which means its right by times square....lots to look at, lots of action, tons of after dinner spots....great jump off point to leave the restaurant from and take a stroll.

http://www.trattoriatrecolori.com/

Never been there but for some reason every time I pass it I say to myself I have to try it! Now I will!

[sailor]

Frites is nice, plus they have all those sauces you can add.

[disneyspy]

that place is awesome. expensive, but lots of fun. when you do make your reservations for whenever you go, have dinner there. Eating there gets you priority seating for the show. turns a $200 visit into a $400 visit, but its worth it.

holy shit didn't realize it was that much

[Patient zer0]

Thanks guys!
All this is very helpful

I'm staying at the jolly hotel in the maddison towers. 34th and maddison for a reference on where ill be starting my adventure

[Patient zer0]

What about sights to check out?

[Snoogans]

What about sights to check out?

go to the museum of natural history. is a fuckin awesome place. especially if you smoke a bowl first.

Smokin weed and lookin at dinosaur bones kicks fuckin ass

[Snacks]

If you can go to an observation roof at night try it. The view of NYC at night is amazing. You have to walk around broadway and see all the theaters, the lights, the touristy shit is all there and free! Central park which is great to walk around and see this massive park in the middle of the best city in the world. You can relax, bring lunch and just watch NY! South Street seaport and on you way stop by and look at the rebuild of ground zero or Little Italy/China Town or the village!

Basically walk outside of your hotel and you will find things to do and see. Anywhere you walk you will find cool little markets and places to eat, drink, and do anything. If there are things you want to see, see them but make sure you leave lots of free time to just explore. You will be surprised all you will see and thing to do that you dont find online or from other tourist sites.

Enjoy, hope you have a great time!!!

[Dudeman]

Ron's local coffee shop:

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.citysbest.com/media/2010/11/javagirl.jpg

[underdog]

I advise visiting the high line. Its a converted elevated railway turned into a park. Heres more 411 on it



http://www.thehighline.org/

Highline is great. If you like drinking outdoors, there are two outdoor drinking places on it, too. Enter on 30th, wander down, then wander around the meatpacking district.

ive been recommended ;

BLT STEAK

PETER LUGER'S

CRAFT STEAKHOUSE

point me in the right direction my people.

one expensive dinner.

and two dinners at a real ny spot. no chain resto's

prefferably One italian and not sure what else.

Go with Craft.

if you want italian, go to Lupa and get the taster's menu.

Everything I do in NYC involves drinking and/or eating, so if you need drinking hints, I can help.

[keithy_19]

I'd check out the Joe Strummer mural, but that's just me.

[Squeezix_Wing]

I'd check out the Joe Strummer mural, but that's just me.
Where is the Joe Strummer mural?

[keithy_19]

7th street at Avenue A, Lower East Side.

[Patient zer0]

I know I won't hit all the marks on my visit.
Ill miss all the "cool" areas.

[Squeezix_Wing]

I think someone else said it and I can't agree more, set aside some time to hit the bricks and get lost. Sure hit the museums, pubs and landmarks but some of the best times I've had in a city were totally unplanned.

Maybe hit the Circle Line (http://www.nytours.us/?event=offer.type&productType=CRUISE&mpt=288&name=Circle%20Line%20Cruises) too?

[Patient zer0]

I think day 2 is going to be straight walking and looking around. We will walk till we hurt, then grab a cab back to the hotel or something

[Patient zer0]

Molly's is on the list. I gotta try a Ronnie B!

[FMdoug]

7th street at Avenue A, Lower East Side.

Try Niagara, the bar its attached to. It's a little expensive but they play great music.

If you are here on friday I suggest that you go to Croxley's from 5-7pm for their free wings (best free wings in New York City) and dollar off beer then you go up ave B to Manatoba's for 2 dollar domestic until 8 and then you go back across the street from Croxleys for their happy hour until 9. Then you can go to arlene's grocery for a shot of jack and a beer for 5 bucks.

Then you bar hop.

If you don't drink then I suggest you do a lot of walking. Walk from 34th down broadway all the way to city hall. You will pass by all the great little neighborhoods in Chelsea, West Village, the court houses, etc and then you can walk over the brooklyn bridge and take the 4 or 5 back up the east side and check out the Met (of art) on 82nd and 5th and have Nick's pizza on 94th and 2nd.

Also, you have to check out the Lemon Ice King of Corona - http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/07/nyregion/at-lemon-ice-king-nostalgia-is-served-ice-cold.html - simply the best italian ice you will ever have.

There is nothing better than walking on a cool summers day in NYC.

Just avoid times square during the day.

[underdog]

Just go with no plan and wing it. It's very easy in NYC. And it will make you want to keep coming back and trying new things.

And the Lower East Side is amaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaazingly overrated.

[Snacks]

Just go with no plan and wing it. It's very easy in NYC. And it will make you want to keep coming back and trying new things.

And the Lower East Side is amaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaazingly overrated.

for the most part the entire east side sucks!

[underdog]

for the most part the entire east side sucks!

Agreed.

[FMdoug]

Why do you guys think the Lower East Side is overrated/sucks?

I've been going there for years. As long as you avoid trendy hippster pop up places it's a good time. It's great for young people because of the great bars and venues for music. I'm not saying that it's the best part of the city but it's certainly better than murray hill and most of midtown.

[Servo]

ive been recommended ;

BLT STEAK

PETER LUGER'S

CRAFT STEAKHOUSE

point me in the right direction my people.

one expensive dinner.

and two dinners at a real ny spot. no chain resto's

prefferably One italian and not sure what else.

Craftsteak isn't there anymore... he shut it down and reopened it as Colicchio and Sons, not a steakhouse. For steak, I'd recommend Strip House.

For Italian, Cacio e Pepe, on 2nd Avenue and like 12th Street... awesome little place with great pasta.

Ride the Staten Island Ferry at sunset... it's totally free. 25 minutes to SI, 25 back to Manhattan. You can buy a couple of beers on the boat and see some amazing views of the Statue of Liberty, lower Manhattan, the East River bridges, and the Verrazano.

[disneyspy]

the amazing thing about new york city is when you're walking around you constantly see stuff from movies and tv,theres a cool energy about the place and every older building has a cool trim ,relief or statue on it,its a really cool place to visit that you just want to slow down and soak in but theres so much to see and you really can't,ive said this to the chicks i visited with but it's my disneyworld and kicks the shit out of what the disney imaganeers so carefully planned

[Gutter]

Never been there but for some reason every time I pass it I say to myself I have to try it! Now I will!

nice.....lemme know what you think afterwards.

[underdog]

Why do you guys think the Lower East Side is overrated/sucks?

I've been going there for years. As long as you avoid trendy hippster pop up places it's a good time. It's great for young people because of the great bars and venues for music. I'm not saying that it's the best part of the city but it's certainly better than murray hill and most of midtown.

Everywhere I've been is just dirty and pretty crappy. Maybe I need to try it more, but I haven't been impressed.

[Gutter]

holy shit didn't realize it was that much

well, you figure you're buying your dates ticket too, so 60 bucks is all of a sudden 120, then if you're having dinner there, two of you will be about 100 with maybe 2 rounds of drinks. There is a two drink minimum during the show and if you want the Carolines glass, you order it with the drink in it and get the glass later....those are $24 drinks. So you want one, she wants one, and you each have to drink two drinks. So one round is $48, that's $268 and you haven't tipped anyone yet. it depends how much you drink at dinner and during the show, but you could easily rack up a hefty bill for 2 people.....though, if you have the duckets, its worth taking the right lady.

ok, so maybe i was a bit off on 400, but you can see how fast a night there can add up. you're still goin out after the show too....so, there's that.

[Furtherman]

Caroline's isn't that expensive - there's a two drink minimum. Have two drinks and laugh. Eat somewhere else.

[disneyspy]

whew,breathes out,carolines is back on

[Gutter]

Caroline's isn't that expensive - there's a two drink minimum. Have two drinks and laugh. Eat somewhere else.

if you eat there it is......but yea, there are ways around dropping a lot of cash there.

[sailor]

Caroline's isn't that expensive - there's a two drink minimum. Have two drinks and laugh. Eat somewhere else.

How much are tickets?

[Furtherman]

How much are tickets?

I think that depends on the comedian. More famous, more money. I think they're around $20-$30.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

As a native New Yorker I always liked everything south of 14th st. Much more eclectic places to go. Midtown is jammed with too many tourists, too much traffic etc

If you want real chinese food check out Congee village 2 locations

http://www.congeevillagerestaurants.com/

[CountryBob]

I'm jealous of all of the choices you all have for some of the best food in the country. All we have down here is tons of chain resturant shit. :down:

[Kublakhan61]

Jew - Forget Katz's overpriced sandwich and go get a knish and bowl of soup at an honest price at Yonah Schimmel's (137 East Houston St ) [NEAR KATZ]

Italian - Capri Cafe is the most authentic Italian food I've found in NYC - the rest is in Brookyln. Check the hours. Pretty cheap too. (165 Church St) [TRIBECA]

Pizza - Adrienne's (54 Stone Street) is pretty good but not New York Pizza, eh?. It's too classy. New York Pizza Suprema (413 8th Ave) is a good, greasy slice. [FINANCIAL DIST]

Museums - Museum of Natural History. The Met it's donation (so it can be free). Go see the NY Public Library Lions. MoMA is worth the admission in my eyes (but I'm a member so I would say that) (25 West 52 Street)

Burger - Pricey ($15-$20 per burger) but great: DBGB (299 Bowery) [DOWNTOWN]

Coney Island is so far out of your way that should you want to see it you should plan a Brooklyn vacation next time. From midtown it will take you over an hour each way.

[Snacks]

Craftsteak isn't there anymore... he shut it down and reopened it as Colicchio and Sons, not a steakhouse. For steak, I'd recommend Strip House.

For Italian, Cacio e Pepe, on 2nd Avenue and like 12th Street... awesome little place with great pasta.

Ride the Staten Island Ferry at sunset... it's totally free. 25 minutes to SI, 25 back to Manhattan. You can buy a couple of beers on the boat and see some amazing views of the Statue of Liberty, lower Manhattan, the East River bridges, and the Verrazano.

The Staten Island ferry is free? I never knew that, why would it be free? Nothing is free in NYC!!!

[Gutter]

The Staten Island ferry is free? I never knew that, why would it be free? Nothing is free in NYC!!!

How many tickets have you bought off the toothless Haitian man?

[Snacks]

How many tickets have you bought off the toothless Haitian man?

To be honest I have never taken the SI Ferry but I would take it 1 time just for the hell of it. Im more surprised that they offer it for free which is great for all the people who live there and commute to the city. Where does it drop you off in the city?

[Gutter]

To be honest I have never taken the SI Ferry but I would take it 1 time just for the hell of it. Im more surprised that they offer it for free which is great for all the people who live there and commute to the city. Where does it drop you off in the city?

right at the tip 'o the island.

sometimes you'll find someone selling tickets for the ferry to foreigners who don't know its free.

[Patient zer0]

Great input guys!
Thanks so much, all is noted!

[Patient zer0]

I have to hit Katz's
I'm a jew... So I think its my right lol

I've heard carnige deli is much better tho?

[mdr55]

The Staten Island ferry is free? I never knew that, why would it be free? Nothing is free in NYC!!!

Yeah why is that? Surprised they haven't looked at this as a revenue stream for the city. Even if you have to pay one way.

[Snacks]

I have to hit Katz's
I'm a jew... So I think its my right lol

I've heard carnige deli is much better tho?

I have been to Carnegie Deli is what ok more hype then anything. Yes you get a big sandwich and they put pickles on your table (which look like they are recycled if you dont eat them all) but to me it wasnt as good as i expected. I think its just 1 of those places that is famous for being famous and not really that great?

[sailor]

I have to hit Katz's
I'm a jew... So I think its my right lol

I've heard carnige deli is much better tho?

i don't think so, but opinions vary. it's probably more convenient, being on 57th or so. their sandwiches are ridiculously, comically big, so i have a hard time taking them seriously. very popular with the tourists (so there ya go).

http://midlifebatmitzvah.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/pastrami.jpg

[Patient zer0]

Haha that is a retarded sammitch

Ill stick to Katz's or the other heeb spot someone posted

[Kublakhan61]

Haha that is a retarded sammitch

Ill stick to Katz's or the other heeb spot someone posted

You can't get a pastrami at Yonah Schimmel's, their thing is the Knish, but you fill up in a real old school jew joint for little money.

Also that pastrami pic isn't really an exaggeration. You may want to go just experience it but it really is a tourist trap these days. Don't lose the ticket the door man gives you!!

Knish, latkes, kugel, soup + pickles - a real lunch!
http://www.menupages.com/restaurants/yonah-schimmels-knishes/menu

[Judge Smails]

If you want to get yourself a nice little sandwich you've got to take a drive down to Harold's Deli in Edison, NJ.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/03/27/travel/escapes/28turn.03.jpg

[Servo]

The Ferry is run by the NYC DOT and not the MTA, who runs the subways and buses. It's free because if it wasn't, it would be the only one of the 5 boroughs where you would have to pay a fare on top of the 2.25 fare for a subway or bus to get on or off.

[Patient zer0]

You can't get a pastrami at Yonah Schimmel's, their thing is the Knish, but you fill up in a real old school jew joint for little money.

Also that pastrami pic isn't really an exaggeration. You may want to go just experience it but it really is a tourist trap these days. Don't lose the ticket the door man gives you!!

Knish, latkes, kugel, soup + pickles - a real lunch!
http://www.menupages.com/restaurants/yonah-schimmels-knishes/menu

I will check this spot out.
I hate latkas and kugel. I was forced this as a kid and can't stand it!

But a good knish is, well. You know.

I heard its going to be extremely hot and humid this weekend, so sampling some matzo ball soup may be out.


I feel that my trip is now food based. Works for me!

[underdog]

I'm jealous of all of the choices you all have for some of the best food in the country. All we have down here is tons of chain resturant shit. :down:

The weird thing is the city is packed with chains, too. You can get a good sandwich at a deli that is on every corner, yet there is a Subway everywhere. It's awful.

[Snacks]

The weird thing is the city is packed with chains, too. You can get a good sandwich at a deli that is on every corner, yet there is a Subway everywhere. It's awful.

There is an Olive Garden right in the middle of Times Square. Why? How does that stay in business when you are in a city with hundreds of the best Italian restaurants? Why would anyone even think to eat there when you have so many other choices?

[Pitdoc]

[QUOTE=Patient zer0;2885495]I have to hit Katz's
I'm a jew... So I think its my right lol

I've heard carnige deli is much better tho?[/QUOT



I lived in NYC for 15 yrs, but only after I moved out did I eat at Katz's, about 3 months ago . And, really, I think the corned beef sandwich at Carnegie's taste's better. Slightly more marbling, which gives it that good fatty flavor . Ben's on Queens Blvd in Rego Park tastes better than both of them (M local train , get off and its on the south side, about 50 ft from the subway).

[underdog]

There is an Olive Garden right in the middle of Times Square. Why? How does that stay in business when you are in a city with hundreds of the best Italian restaurants? Why would anyone even think to eat there when you have so many other choices?

When my boss was buying our office dinner, my workers wanted to go to the Red Lobster in Times Square.

[StanUpshaw]

How many inches of sandwich will $5 get you at one of your fancy delis?

[PapaBear]

The only time I was in Times Square (1983) you were more likely to see blowjob face dolls in the store windows than a chain restaurant. But from what I've heard from friends recently, $5 won't get you an inch of ANY kind of food there. But I'm pretty sure MLC will be willing to pay you five bucks to walk into Olive Garden wearing one of his tee shirts.

[keithy_19]

Everywhere I've been is just dirty and pretty crappy. Maybe I need to try it more, but I haven't been impressed.

It has it's parts. I have to say I've never had a bad time when I've gone tot he Lower East Side. It's not all glamarous but the bars and music venues, as stated, definately give it charm.

[Pitdoc]

How many inches of sandwich will $5 get you at one of your fancy delis?

They're all about between 11 and 12 bucks apiece .Carnegie probably has the thickest, if you're measuring by the inch (having only eaten there once, but taken out many times, I noted that if you eat it there, they make it just a bit thicker,probably for the experience).

[Kublakhan61]

The weird thing is the city is packed with chains, too. You can get a good sandwich at a deli that is on every corner, yet there is a Subway everywhere. It's awful.

Sometimes you don't have cash and some deli's don't take credit cards. Some deli's take cards but have a minimum limit that's too high to justify. Sometimes you may be down to you're last $5 and need to stretch it as far as you can. In these cases, Fast Food - Subway, in particular for me, really goes a long way.

The city is packed with chains because the city can support them. There's enough people with enough varied taste that it all works out. It's not awful, it economics.