View Full Version : N. Korea & Iraq
furie
01-06-2003, 01:53 PM
Why are we not responding to the North Korean threat the same as we are to the Iraqi threat?
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Orallo
01-06-2003, 01:56 PM
Because unlike Iraq, North Korea doesn't have anything to loose and on top of that:
We KNOW (as oposed to suspecting) that NK have all 3 kinds of weapons of mass destruction. (Chemical, biological & nuclear).
And on the other hand, north korea has not invaded any other countries.
AND probably most important of all, N Korea does NOT produce OIL .
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TheMojoPin
01-06-2003, 02:43 PM
There's never been a Bush involved with NK, and damned if there'll be one now. And besides, they don't look like terrorists, right?
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DarkHippie
01-06-2003, 03:47 PM
Ironically, N.Korea is many times more serious a threat than Iraq is, (I still think that saddam is more interested in thumbing his nose at America than in war and possibly losing his position of power) but since we're mired in this pissing contest with Iraq, we really don't have the political resources to spread to Korea. Yet if we concentrate on Korea, it will look like we're backing down from Saddam.
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Yerdaddy
01-06-2003, 04:40 PM
We haven't spent 12 years demonizing North Korea, so it would'nt be as politically advantageous to make war with them. North Korea is also more of a threat to his neighbors, who are also more powerful than Iraq's, (China, Japan, Russia, South Korea). So it's neighbors are more involved in our relations with NK, and containment will be the policy of choice.
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Captain Rooster
01-06-2003, 04:46 PM
1. N. Korea already has nukes and they can reach the 2nd Infantry Division, Japan and China.
2. They have not left their border and encroached south in 50 years.
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http://www.sftt.org/302KARQ.pdf
This message was edited by LTRooster on 1-6-03 @ 8:53 PM
The Jays
01-06-2003, 04:53 PM
AND probably most important of all, N Korea does NOT produce OIL .
...are you saying this war is about oil?
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Lucento
01-06-2003, 05:17 PM
Iraq is more
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NewYorkDragons80
01-06-2003, 05:51 PM
Ironically, N.Korea is many times more serious a threat than Iraq is
So, you support American action against North Korea?
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NewYorkDragons80
01-06-2003, 05:52 PM
Mojo, who killed Chung-Hee Park's wife? Were they Arab terrorists? Were they Colombian terrorists?
PS (I know you were being sarcastic, so I am just answering back with my own sarcastic zinger)
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Se7en
01-06-2003, 06:03 PM
They have not left their border and encroached south in 50 years
That's the biggest reason right there.
Sorry to have to say that, I know some people here just love any opportunity they can find to bash our current president or make smartass (oops, I'm sorry, I meant to say "witty") remarks about how "This war is just about oil!" (BTW, speaking as a capitalist, oil is actually a pretty fucking good reason to fight a war, but that's neither here nor there).
The reason we're not going all hardass on North Korea is that, while they're technically more of a threat in terms of the hardware / army they possess, they are *slightly* more manageable than Iraq, who is just utterly fucking insane.
The North Korean government, of course, is totally nuts too, but they haven't invaded another country in the past 10 years or so (although they've made threats), and generally they can be appeased through diplomatic means. You can't say the same about Iraq.
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TheMojoPin
01-06-2003, 06:04 PM
Mojo, who killed Chung-Hee Park's wife? Were they Arab terrorists? Were they Colombian terrorists?
PS (I know you were being sarcastic, so I am just answering back with my own sarcastic zinger)
ZINGED.
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DarkHippie
01-06-2003, 06:28 PM
So, you support American action against North Korea?
that's actually a good question. While I don't support military action, our focus should be there, not with Iraq.
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Yerdaddy
01-06-2003, 06:38 PM
Se7en - What has Iraq done that's so insane? Everything Iraq has done in the past has been in the pursuit of its own interests, (more specifically, Saddam's ambition of power and self-preservation). He invaded Iran when "the West" was happy to have him do it. He gassed the Iranians and the Kurds with the tacid approval of his US and European friends, who continued to provide him with food, weapons, anthrax, and miitary intelligence. When he informed the US ambassador to Iraq of his intentions to invade Kuwait, he was told, "the US takes no position on Arab to Arab conflicts"(paraphrase). He has suppressed and killed Islamic extremists in Iraq who would challenge him for power. He has played the UN Security Council nations against each other in order to stay in power and keep whatever weapons he can in the hopes that if he emerges from isolation, he will remain a regional power. He has avoided attacking the US or western powers because he knows it would be suicide.
Saddam is extremely predictable. Inspections from 1991 to 1998 were successful at finding and destroying more Iraqi WMD than the Gulf War and Desert Fox combined. There is no reason to think that supporting UNMOVIC rather than undermining it at every opportunity wouldn't enable it to remove Saddam's WMD and in a way that won't encourage Saddam to turn them on his neighbors, US troops, or hand them over to terrorists.
The idea that he is crazy and unpredictable is propaganda to support a war, and the facts don't support that theory.
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It was a joke goddammit!
AND probably most important of all, N Korea does NOT produce OIL .
But they do export ballistic missile technology.
In the case of Iraq, I think our policy is preventing them from developing nukes. In the case of North Korea it's a matter of maintaining "containment" since they already have nukes.
I hate to think what the Middle East would be like today if Israel hadn't destroyed Iraq's Osiraq nuclear reactor in 1981.
And I maintain: don't forget about Iran.
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furie
01-07-2003, 06:25 AM
that's actually a good question. While I don't support military action, our focus should be there, not with Iraq.
focus? to what end? Just to watch them build WMD? what would be the point of that?
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This message was edited by furie on 1-7-03 @ 10:28 AM
DarkHippie
01-07-2003, 08:47 AM
focus? to what end? Just to watch them build WMD? what would be the point of that?
Ok, you've made me do it. Time to bust out "DarkHippie's Philosophy on war."
I believe in a concept called "Living History"; that the events that happen in the past stay with us through the memories of generations, whether by familial stories, school books, news and government archives, literature and art; it will always be with us.
Some examples of this include: the ethnic clensing in Bosnia being borne out of the ethnic clensing in WWII. Bin laden's hatred of the US steming from Operation: Desert Shield. The Germans invading France in WWI coming from the french trouncing them 30 years earlier.
This being stated, any military actions that we take will have tremendous impact on the world's future. And with the speed of media today (what creates Living History) It will be near future, and it will occur over and over again. Modern Media makes it so that we know what happens around the world nigh instantly, and that we can recall it nigh indefinately, so that old grudges will never die.
i hope that this helped some of you to understand my position better, and why I am so wary of going to war.
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furie
01-07-2003, 11:49 AM
i hope that this helped some of you to understand my position better, and why I am so wary of going to war.
yes that does help me understand you and your position a little better.
But I'm not talking about going into korea. But it's like Iraq. I don't think we're going into Iraq. But no one can deny that it was the very real threat of US strikes that got the UN inspections started again.
Sometimes you have to carry that big stick(but without using it) to protect yourself down the line.
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This message was edited by furie on 1-7-03 @ 5:18 PM
NewYorkDragons80
01-07-2003, 02:40 PM
I hate to think what the Middle East would be like today if Israel hadn't destroyed Iraq's Osiraq nuclear reactor in 1981.
In my opinion, we should not rule out doing the same to North Korea. If we want to show nations that we are not singling out Iraq, we need to tell North Korea "If you don't shut it down, we will," only in much more diplomatic terms.
However, if Bush wants to show the world that all he cares about is Iraq, then he is doing a fantastic job.
EDIT: Didn't Israel take out the Iraqi reactor in 1984?
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This message was edited by NewYorkDragons80 on 1-7-03 @ 6:44 PM
Reephdweller
01-07-2003, 02:45 PM
actually iraq doesn't have nukes (that we know of), so they must be stopped before they do. if they develop a nuclear program it is likely they will share with terrorists such as osama bin laden...
north korea already has nukes. so they must be handled differently. they must be stopped from getting more, and eventually from having what they now have.
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FUNKMAN
01-07-2003, 02:47 PM
Politics Suck!
But everyone knows Asian food is more popular than the spicy mideast stuff...
The Bush's don't want the delivery boy to piss in their Chow Mein...
:)
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EDIT: Didn't Israel take out the Iraqi reactor in 1984?
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/iraq/osiraq.htm
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canofsoup15
01-07-2003, 03:14 PM
Can someone please explain to me why we cant just dress up some guy in iraq-ish clothing, send him to some festival, and snipe saddam in the head. Im sure theirs some good reason to not do that, but why the hell not.
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Yerdaddy
01-07-2003, 03:45 PM
if they develop a nuclear program it is likely they will share with terrorists such as osama bin laden...
Why would you think Iraq would do this when he's never done anything like it before, and if he did he whould be committing suicide? (Unless you believe Laurie Mylroie's theory, that only she believes, that the FBI and the CIA covered up Saddam's involvement in the 93 WTC bombing because they love Clinton so much.) Saddam's only links to terrorist groups are to Palestinian nationalist groups and groups that go after iraqi dissidents. He's a dick, but he's not stupid.
And if there is an Iraqi nuclear program, inspectors would be the best way to find and destroy it, again.
But no one can deny that it was the very real threat of US strikes that got the UN inspections started again.
Sometimes you have to carry that big stick(but without using it) to protect yourself down the line.
True, I can't deny that the threat of force is what got the inspectors in. I don't think it was the only way to get them in, but this may turn out to be a good way to get better cooperation. However, I don't think the goal of the Bush administration was inspections. They have undermined the inspections at every opportunity. Beginning by leaking a White House policy that US intelligence agents could, (in self-defense - uh, ok), kill Saddam Hussein, to the New York Times weeks before the UN was to meet with the Iraqi regime to negotiate a return of inspectors. Within hours of Iraq agreeing to the inspections, Bush made a statement that he was lying and continued the war rhetoric. When the inspectors began barging in on facilities and getting no resistance from the Iraqis, the Bush administration began saying that they have intelligence that the inspectors don't have, and that Saddam has weapons that UNMOVIC won't find. The inspectors stated that the US should provide that intelligence, (just as they did with UNSCOM, when the US wanted the inspectors to succeed), but the administration has so far refused. The administration has held up equipment UNMOVIC needs to be successful, like 12 helicopters they need to be able to get to facilities quickly and multiple facilities at once, but last I heard, they only had one.
It may be that the military buildup and war talk is intended to aid weapons inspections. But if it is, they're not doing a good job.The success so far of UNMOVIC seems to be due to the resistance of the international community, negotiations by the UN, and compromise with the Bush administration, which wants war.
Didn't Israel take out the Iraqi reactor in 1984?
Israel took out the Osirak nuclear research facility in June, 1981.
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It was a joke goddammit!
NewYorkDragons80
01-07-2003, 06:27 PM
And if there is an Iraqi nuclear program, inspectors would be the best way to find and destroy it, again.
AND LET THE CIA BE DAMNED!!!
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Yerdaddy
01-07-2003, 07:00 PM
AND LET THE CIA BE DAMNED!!!
I don't know what that means.
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It was a joke goddammit!
Recyclerz
01-07-2003, 07:14 PM
An interesting analysis on Slate.com http://slate.msn.com/id/2076468/ <P>
My humble opinion on why we're going to invade Iraq is that access to oil, revenge and legitimate concern about keeping Hussein from getting nukes all were factors shaping the debate but the the most important factor was that, after 9/11, Paul Wolfowitz was able to sell W on his theory of toppling Hussein and turning Iraq into a pro-Western client state that could serve as our proxy in keeping the oil flowing out of the Persian Gulf, as well as keeping an eye on the extremist Islamists. Although Mr. Wolfowitz is much smarter than me, I still think he was on the hookah when he dreamed that one up.<P> North Korea is dangerous because they seemed to be calling W's bluff(?) at just about the worst possible time for us. China is the only so-called ally that could help us tone down Beloved Leader Jr., and anything we get from them isn't going to come cheap. <P> I sincerely hope the foreign policy dream team can live up to their billng in 2003 because we're going to be fucked if they don't. Honestly, I'd be a lot happier if Bush Sr. & Powell were the only ones calling the shots. <P> <P> <P>
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Se7en
01-07-2003, 07:17 PM
Se7en - What has Iraq done that's so insane?
Forgive me, I was using the term "insane" in quite a cavalier fashion.
When I said "insane", I meant to say, "absolutely fucking psychopathic". Which technically DOES qualify as a mental illness under the DSM IV, so yes, Iraq = insane.
Hippie: Ultimately, once we get past this "Bush is doing this for his daddy / Bush is doing this for the oil" bullshit (which is, IMO, every bit a form of propaganda for the antiwar crowd), I think it all does boil down to your argument. It's those who believe that this situation can only be handled by force, vs. those who feel that force now will only cause us (that is to say, the United States and its citizens home & abroad) more harm in the future.
There are valid arguments for both sides, I just hate it when we all get bogged down in rhetoric.
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TheMojoPin
01-07-2003, 10:00 PM
Forgive me, I was using the term "insane" in quite a cavalier fashion.
When I said "insane", I meant to say, "absolutely fucking psychopathic". Which technically DOES qualify as a mental illness under the DSM IV, so yes, Iraq = insane.
Granted, and it's pretty easy to also realize that Saddam is a greedy, cruel, malevolent prick...but why exactly is he insane? Murderous...check. Power-hungry...check. Paranoid....check. But all we've called him on is invading Kuwait. And...well, that's about it. And there's no point bringing up the "tragic gassing of the Kurds", because if the boys up top actually cared about this essentially US-sanctioned attack at the time, they would have done something then. Or at least pretended like they would have.
While you're right that the ant-war side has its share of rhetoric, trying to prop Saddam up as some mad, Dr. Doom-like supervillain is just as preposterous.
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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 1-8-03 @ 2:03 AM
Bob Impact
01-07-2003, 10:02 PM
Can someone please explain to me why we cant just dress up some guy in iraq-ish clothing, send him to some festival, and snipe saddam in the head. Im sure theirs some good reason to not do that, but why the hell not.
In 1981 President Reagan added a provision to Executive Order 12333 stating that the United States would not make a direct atempt on a head of state's life. This did not count casualty related deaths, however. Ron explained it best when he said if you were to go after a mobster you would have to destroy little Italy and hope he got killed by flying bricks. I don't think President Bush has rescinded the order, but he may have. In the case of Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaeda heads, they are treated as combatents and can be killed as such.
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Yerdaddy
01-07-2003, 11:10 PM
There are valid arguments for both sides, I just hate it when we all get bogged down in rhetoric.
for instance:
When I said "insane", I meant to say, "absolutely fucking psychopathic". Which technically DOES qualify as a mental illness under the DSM IV, so yes, Iraq = insane.
Not to be a dick but it matters whether the behavior of Saddam Hussein is irrational in a way that he cannot be contained, and war is the only option for removing him as a threat. I've cited numerous examples of Saddam being predictable and thus capeable of being contained and his weapons being removed from him, sparing the lives of thousands of innocents. You simply state that he is insane over and over, with no examples to back it up. Could it be that you just like it when we go to war with somebody?
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It was a joke goddammit!
Captain Rooster
01-08-2003, 06:34 AM
I love the way liberals try to make it seem that the US used chemical weapons on the Kurds.
Giving Iraq chemical weapons was a deterrent measure when posturing a military power. We also gave Israel nukes but we did not tell them to use them whenever they damn well feel like it. Those nukes have kept Israel free from a major invasion for damn near 30 years.
STOP with the "We are the 'real' bad guys" bullshit.
Saddam is the one who used those weapons on the Kurds.
Saddam is the one who wanted to hold the world's oil hostahe in 1990/91.
Saddam is the one who attacked the innocent nation of Israel during Desert Storm.
Saddam is the one who tried to have President Bush Sr. killed when he visited the region.
By the way, I am not so sure having inspectors in the coutry is the best way to destroy the WMDs.
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This message was edited by LTRooster on 1-8-03 @ 10:48 AM
TheMojoPin
01-08-2003, 06:55 AM
I love the way liberals try to make it seem that the US used chemical weapons on the Kurds.
No, we're NOT trying to seem like that. Re-read what I posted. I said it was an "essentially sanctioned" action. We provided the means. We knew exactly what was happening. We chose to do nothing. THAT'S exactly what I'm saying happened. If we didn't call him on it then, it would be disgustingly hypocritcal to do so now.
STOP with the "We are the 'real' bad guys" bullshit.
Nobody's playing that card, because it's a non-issue. What I'm stating is that it just looks ridiculous to the rest of the world if we're going to have to backpedal and use an incident like the Kurds when at the time we very conciously chose to do nothing. It doesn't mean we're the "bad guys"; it just means we look like idiots, and that ticks me off. Our government is supposed to represent us as a nation, and I for one don't want to look like the way they're presenting us. It'll give us even less weight and leverage in future international issues.
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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 1-8-03 @ 12:53 PM
Yerdaddy
01-08-2003, 07:07 AM
I meant to post this a while back but was distracted when Moe posted a picture of Aggie's glorious rack. I knew about these stories before and that they had turned out to be bogus, but I hadn't heard the full incubator story before. Or I might have forgotten it.
<a href="http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0906/p01s02-wosc.html" target="_blank">In war, some facts less factual</a>
When George H. W. Bush ordered American forces to the Persian Gulf - to reverse Iraq's August 1990 invasion of Kuwait - part of the administration case was that an Iraqi juggernaut was also threatening to roll into Saudi Arabia.
Citing top-secret satellite images, Pentagon officials estimated in mid-September that up to 250,000 Iraqi troops and 1,500 tanks stood on the border, threatening the key US oil supplier.
But when the St. Petersburg Times in Florida acquired two commercial Soviet satellite images of the same area, taken at the same time, no Iraqi troops were visible near the Saudi border - just empty desert.
"It was a pretty serious fib," says Jean Heller, the Times journalist who broke the story.
Shortly before US strikes began in the Gulf War, for example, the St. Petersburg Times asked two experts to examine the satellite images of the Kuwait and Saudi Arabia border area taken in mid-September 1990, a month and a half after the Iraqi invasion. The experts, including a former Defense Intelligence Agency analyst who specialized in desert warfare, pointed out the US build-up - jet fighters standing wing-tip to wing-tip at Saudi bases - but were surprised to see almost no sign of the Iraqis.
"That [Iraqi buildup] was the whole justification for Bush sending troops in there, and it just didn't exist," Ms. Heller says. Three times Heller contacted the office of Secretary of Defense Dick Cheney (now vice president) for evidence refuting the Times photos or analysis - offering to hold the story if proven wrong.
The official response: "Trust us." To this day, the Pentagon's photographs of the Iraqi troop buildup remain classified.
in the fall of 1990, members of Congress and the American public were swayed by the tearful testimony of a 15-year-old Kuwaiti girl, known only as Nayirah.
In the girl's testimony before a congressional caucus, well-documented in MacArthur's book "Second Front" and elsewhere, she described how, as a volunteer in a Kuwait maternity ward, she had seen Iraqi troops storm her hospital, steal the incubators, and leave 312 babies "on the cold floor to die."
Seven US Senators later referred to the story during debate; the motion for war passed by just five votes. In the weeks after Nayirah spoke, President Bush senior invoked the incident five times, saying that such "ghastly atrocities" were like "Hitler revisited."
But just weeks before the US bombing campaign began in January, a few press reports began to raise questions about the validity of the incubator tale.
Later, it was learned that Nayirah was in fact the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador to Washington and had no connection to the Kuwait hospital.
She had been coached - along with the handful of others who would "corroborate" the story - by senior executives of Hill and Knowlton in Washington, the biggest global PR firm at the time, which had a contract worth more than $10 million with the Kuwaitis to make the case for war.
"We didn't know it wasn't true at the time," Brent Scowcroft, Bush's national security adviser, said of the incubator story in a 1995 interview with the London-based Guardian newspaper. He acknowledged "it was useful in mobilizing public opinion."
<img src="http://yerdaddy.homestead.com/files/pics/sigyalta.jpg" >
It was a joke goddammit!
a picture of Aggie's glorious rack.
See -- there are more important things in the world to be concerned with than Iraq and North Korea.
<IMG SRC="http://www.silentspic.com/images/sighost/ajdcsig.jpg">
A Skidmark production.
TheMojoPin
01-08-2003, 08:57 AM
See -- there are more important things in the world to be concerned with than Iraq and North Korea.
I have been to the top of the mountain. And it was good. Boobs for peace.
<img src=http://ww2.salon.com/sex/world/2000/06/05/putin/story.jpg>
<img src=http://publish.hometown.aol.com/gpigking/myhomepage/hey%20you.gif?mtbrand=AOL_US>
VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and Minister of Bloody Mayhem.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."
high fly
01-08-2003, 09:51 AM
We need to invade Iraq because Saddam Hussein refuses to give back all the anthrax, botulism and other nasty chemical weapons THAT RONALD FUCKING REAGAN GAVE TO HIM!
You are your own party, wherever you go; if you are bored, you are boring
high fly
01-08-2003, 10:53 AM
Also remember about those U.N. inspectors--Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence
You are your own party, wherever you go; if you are bored, you are boring
TheMojoPin
01-08-2003, 12:24 PM
Also remember about those U.N. inspectors--Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence
Yeah, and don't forge...wait...WHAT TH-?!?!
<img src=http://publish.hometown.aol.com/gpigking/myhomepage/hey%20you.gif?mtbrand=AOL_US>
VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and Minister of Bloody Mayhem.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."
DarkHippie
01-08-2003, 01:30 PM
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence
reversing the sentence only works for David Carradine in "Mystery Men"
<IMG SRC=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/darkhippie2.gif>
<marquee>Who is DarkHippie? "You look like an Amish child molester"-- Jim Norton. "Watch out for this one. Someday he's gonna snap and kill you all."-- Rich Vos </marquee>
<i>LABELS ARE FOR PRODUCTS, NOT PEOPLE! DON'T HUG A TREE, PLANT ONE!
</i><a href=http://www.freeopendiary.com/entrylist.asp?authorcode=A537085>Gonads and Strife: a journal</a>
TheMojoPin
01-08-2003, 02:01 PM
reversing the sentence only works for David Carradine in "Mystery Men"
Or John Lennon.
<img src=http://publish.hometown.aol.com/gpigking/myhomepage/hey%20you.gif?mtbrand=AOL_US>
VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and Minister of Bloody Mayhem.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."
skullcrush
01-08-2003, 02:19 PM
i know something you dont know :)
<img src=http://www.ltrooster.homestead.com/files/skullmarine.jpg>
SIR THANKYOU LT. ROOSTER SIR!
kc7586
01-08-2003, 03:03 PM
i don't know, hmmmm, could it have something to do with our president being a hick?
TheMojoPin
01-08-2003, 03:16 PM
i know something you dont know
He's right. Next week, the biggest "blockbuster" of the summer is coming a little early...
<img src=http://publish.hometown.aol.com/gpigking/myhomepage/hey%20you.gif?mtbrand=AOL_US>
VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and Minister of Bloody Mayhem.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."
The Jays
01-08-2003, 03:16 PM
You simply state that he is insane over and over, with no examples to back it up.
... Someone who actually has a professional rapist is someone I would consider insane....
<font color="blue" face="Trebuchet MS" size=-2> Fuck what you heard.</font>
<font color="blue" face="Trebuchet MS" size=-2> That cab has a dent in it.</font> [center]
[center]http://img.ranchoweb.com/images/jays777/die.jpg
TheMojoPin
01-08-2003, 03:25 PM
... Someone who actually has a professional rapist is someone I would consider insane....
You gotta wonder what the interview process is for a position like that.
Is one rapist really "better" than another? Ugh...
<img src=http://publish.hometown.aol.com/gpigking/myhomepage/hey%20you.gif?mtbrand=AOL_US>
VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and Minister of Bloody Mayhem.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."
high fly
01-08-2003, 03:38 PM
Quote: reversing the sentence.. Reversing a sentence is a legitimate figure of speech. If the inspectors find nothing, that does not mean nothing's there. Sorry, not too familiar with "Mystery Men"; I haven't liked anything by D. Carradine since, oh, the first episode of "Kung Fu".
You are your own party, wherever you go; if you are bored, you are boring
DarkHippie
01-08-2003, 03:50 PM
Reversing a sentence is a legitimate figure of speech. If the inspectors find nothing, that does not mean nothing's there.
We get it. We get jokes.
<IMG SRC=http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/darkhippie2.gif>
<marquee>Who is DarkHippie? "You look like an Amish child molester"-- Jim Norton. "Watch out for this one. Someday he's gonna snap and kill you all."-- Rich Vos </marquee>
<i>LABELS ARE FOR PRODUCTS, NOT PEOPLE! DON'T HUG A TREE, PLANT ONE!
</i><a href=http://www.freeopendiary.com/entrylist.asp?authorcode=A537085>Gonads and Strife: a journal</a>
high fly
01-08-2003, 04:45 PM
Yes, it is a legitimate figure of speech. As for the point, though I didn't put it very well, the point is valid and unassailed.
You are your own party, wherever you go; if you are bored, you are boring
Yerdaddy
01-09-2003, 07:17 AM
Also remember about those U.N. inspectors--Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence
Iraq's Military Capabilities: Fighting A Wounded, But Dangerous, Poisonous Snake
Anthony H. Cordesman
Arleigh A. Burke Chair for Strategy Center for Strategic and International Studies
December 3, 2001
...While the UN Coalition did relatively little during the war to successfully attack Iraq's
missiles and weapons of mass destruction, the UN Special Commission (UNSCOM) that
was established to oversee the destruction of these assets had more success between 1991
and 1997 - when Saddam first undercut it and then forced it out of the country.
UNSCOM succeeded in destroying most of Iraq's ballistic missiles and production
capabilities, most of its chemical weapons and production capabilities, most of its nuclear
weapons production capabilities, most of its chemical weapons and production
capabilities, and much of its biological weapons capabilities. While UNSCOM could not
keep Iraq from maintaining a core of such production capabilities, and significant
numbers of weapons and parts remain unaccounted for, UNSCOM did succeed in
destroying billions of dollars worth of Iraqi weapons and equipment....
http://www.csis.org/burke/hd/reports/IraqMilCap.pdf
soundbites sound cool, but they don't say dick
<img src="http://yerdaddy.homestead.com/files/pics/sigyalta.jpg" >
It was a joke goddammit!
Yerdaddy
01-09-2003, 07:17 AM
Time for a Sweaty News Update
<a href="http://rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/fc/world/iraq/latest_developments/exturl/*http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=564&ncid=564&e=1&u=/nm/20030108/ts_nm/iraq_vigil_dc_1" target="_blank">Families of Sept. 11 Victims Hold Vigil in Iraq</a>
<a href="http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0108/p01s03-woiq.html" target="_blank">A secret Saudi visit to Iraq last month may signal a plan to coax its leader into exile.</a>
<a href="http://www.un.org/apps/news/infocusnewsiraq.asp?sID=8" target="_blank">UNMOVIC Daily Breifings</a>
<a href="http://www.americansforfuelefficientcars.org/index.html" target="_blank">TV ads link SUVs and terrorism and mock Bush's drug war ads</a> - scroll down to see the ads
<a href="http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2003-01-08-chem-bio-usat_x.htm" target="_blank">top Army scientist warned Wednesday that U.S. forces have little or no defense against some of Iraq's most lethal toxins.</a>
<a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A24663-2003Jan7.html" target="_blank">Heeding Public Opposition, Turkey Delays Decision on Use of Bases Against Iraq </a>
<a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,870600,00.html" target="_blank">UN inspectors 'cast doubt on UK evidence dossier' </a>
<a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A24623-2003Jan7.html" target="_blank">Britain Readies Iraq Force as France Says It May Join U.N.-Endorsed War </a>
<a href="http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030108/wl_nm/iraq_dc_21" target="_blank">U.N. Arms Inspectors Up Tempo in Iraq</a>
<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/08/international/middleeast/08IMPA.html" target="_blank">U.N. Study Sees 500,000 Iraqis Facing Injury in Case of War</a>
<a href="http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030108/ap_wo_en_ge/as_gen_afghanistan_us_iraq_2" target="_blank">U.S. Military: Foreigners in Afghanistan could become target in event of American attack on Iraq</a>
<a href="http://www.armscontrol.org/act/2002_10/iraqspecialoct02.asp" target="_blank">Iraq: A Chronology of UN Inspections
And an Assessment of Their Accomplishments</a> - summaries at bottom of page
<a href="http://www.armscontrol.org/act/2002_12/sigal_dec02.asp" target="_blank">North Korea Is No Iraq: Pyongyang's Negotiating Strategy</a>
<img src="http://yerdaddy.homestead.com/files/pics/sigyalta.jpg" >
It was a joke goddammit!
Recyclerz
01-09-2003, 07:27 PM
http://www.msnbc.com/news/850567.asp?0cv=CA00 <P>
North Korea pulls out of nuclear non-proliferation treaty. <P>
Can they be any more obvious in giving the finger to W? <P>
$2 says we see nukes for sale on E-Bay by the end of the month. <P>
<P>
You're only young once, but you can be immature forever.
Captain Rooster
01-09-2003, 09:23 PM
<img src=http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rtkane/iraqi.jpg>
"Hut, hut, hut..."
<img src=http://www.ltrooster.homestead.com/files/roosterclawsanime.gif>
Yerdaddy
01-09-2003, 09:29 PM
LT Rooster, take out that Iraqi Ass Map!
<img src="http://yerdaddy.homestead.com/files/pics/sigyalta.jpg" >
It was a joke goddammit!
Captain Rooster
01-09-2003, 09:38 PM
Yerdaddy, but I only got one glove.
<img src=http://www.ltrooster.homestead.com/files/roosterclawsanime.gif>
Yerdaddy
01-09-2003, 09:39 PM
well that's just the way the chain of command works.
<img src="http://yerdaddy.homestead.com/files/pics/sigyalta.jpg" >
It was a joke goddammit!
TheMojoPin
01-10-2003, 08:05 AM
Man...I didn't join the army to pull paper our of people's ases...
Just stand outside so Chief can translate my Iraqi ass map...okay?
<img src=http://publish.hometown.aol.com/gpigking/myhomepage/hey%20you.gif?mtbrand=AOL_US>
VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and the best goddamn American ever.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."
NewYorkDragons80
01-10-2003, 05:22 PM
Yerdaddy said:
And if there is an Iraqi nuclear program, inspectors would be the best way to find and destroy it, again.
NewYorkDragons said:
AND LET THE CIA BE DAMNED!!!
Yerdaddy said:
I don't know what that means.
It means that to call UN weapons inspectors, who serve an authority other than the United States, are not as acute at gathering intelligence to serve the US as American foreign intelligence.
EDIT: You mean them little cubes you put in hot water to make soup?
<marquee>
"In war there is no substitute for victory." -General Douglas MacArthur "If gold should rust, what will iron do?" -Geoffrey Chaucer "Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.-Romans 12:1</marquee>
<img src=http://members.aol.com/cityhawk80/myhomepage/nydragonssig.jpg?mtbrand=AOL_US>
DCPete walked me through how to FINALLY post a sig.
This message was edited by NewYorkDragons80 on 1-10-03 @ 9:30 PM
Yerdaddy
01-10-2003, 07:02 PM
UNSCOM had access to the highest-level and most up-to-date intelligence from the US, British, Israeli, and other countries' intelligence on Iraq. UNSCOM staff was pulled from top scientists, military experts, Iraq experts, and intelligence experts from all over the world, including the US. Scott Ritter, who was the chief UNSCOM inspector on the ground in Iraq from 91-98 had been an officer in the US Marine Corps, and was Norman Schwarzkopf's chief advisor on WMD. By comparison, the work of UNSCOM, because of it's years of walking into Iraqi facilities and opening file cabinets, testing for chemicals, finding and destroying missiles, interviewing Iraqi scientists and military personnel, the data that UNSCOM produced is the baseline of intelligence on Iraq's weapons programs. Aside from the claims by the Bush administration that it is witholding intelligence from UNMOVIC, it can ba assumed to work the same way.
So I don't see an either/or or competitive relationship between UN weapons inspectors and US intelligence agencies. If CIA agents could walk into an Iraqi laboratory and look through it's files, then there would be no need for UNMOVIC. But until that day comes I'm sure the CIA and NSA are thrilled to know that they will be getting mountains of new data on Iraq from UNMOVIC.
Can you control him?
<img src="http://yerdaddy.homestead.com/files/pics/sigyalta.jpg" >
It was a joke goddammit!
NewYorkDragons80
01-11-2003, 04:30 AM
It's not his fault, he's from a group home in Houston.
<marquee>
"In war there is no substitute for victory." -General Douglas MacArthur "If gold should rust, what will iron do?" -Geoffrey Chaucer "Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.-Romans 12:1</marquee>
<img src=http://members.aol.com/cityhawk80/myhomepage/nydragonssig.jpg?mtbrand=AOL_US>
DCPete walked me through how to FINALLY post a sig.
TheMojoPin
01-11-2003, 12:03 PM
It's not his fault, he's from a group home in Houston.
Hey, don't TELL people that...
<img src=http://img.ranchoweb.com/images/philex/mjpin1.gif>
VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and the best goddamn American ever.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."
NewYorkDragons80
01-12-2003, 01:07 PM
Raghead and Cameljockey are perfectly acceptable alternatives
<marquee>
"In war there is no substitute for victory." -General Douglas MacArthur "If gold should rust, what will iron do?" -Geoffrey Chaucer "Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.-Romans 12:1</marquee>
<img src=http://members.aol.com/cityhawk80/myhomepage/nydragonssig.jpg?mtbrand=AOL_US>
DCPete walked me through how to FINALLY post a sig.
TheMojoPin
01-12-2003, 05:23 PM
No, no...my friend, only the women do that...
<img src=http://img.ranchoweb.com/images/philex/mjpin1.gif>
VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and the best goddamn American ever.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."
Yerdaddy
01-13-2003, 04:13 PM
Conservative collumnist, Robert Novak wrote a piece on the Republicans in the Senate being pissed off at Bush over his conduct on Iraq.
<a href="http://www.suntimes.com/output/novak/cst-edt-novak13.html" target="_blank">GOP senators on the warpath</a>
I reccommend reading the whole thing, but these are some quotes of some heavy-hitters in the Republican party.
No senator more solidly supports Bush's national security policy than Warner, the 75-year-old chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee who was re-elected last year to a fifth Senate term from Virginia. A veteran of the Navy (World War II) and Marine Corps (Korean War) and a former secretary of the Navy, he has devoted long public service to American's national defense.
Consequently, Warner had his colleagues' attention when he addressed Card. ''I will not tolerate,'' he boomed, ''a continuation of what's been going on the last two years.'' He cited cavalier treatment that denies information even to the venerable top Senate Republican on Armed Services. To specify whom he was talking about, Warner said he had breakfast scheduled the next morning with Rumsfeld and would tell the secretary of defense the same thing.
Next up was Sen. Pat Roberts, a former Marine officer who has spent the last 40 years on Capitol Hill. Roberts, a plain-spoken Midwesterner from Dodge City, Kan., is the new Senate Intelligence Committee chairman. He told Card to mark him down agreeing with everything Warner just said.
Sen. Kit Bond of Missouri next got up to tell Card that the administration had better put out more information justifying military action against Iraq as part of the war against terrorism. ''What is the connection between Iraq and al-Qaida?'' Bond asked. ''Don't worry,'' replied Card, indicating the information would come along.
Bush told the people to rise up against Saddam. They thought they'd have our support. They didn't. Now they're being slaughtered.
<img src="http://yerdaddy.homestead.com/files/pics/sigyalta.jpg" >
It was a joke goddammit!
Abrasive Dean
01-13-2003, 05:00 PM
Mojo wrote:
He's right. Next week, the biggest "blockbuster" of the summer is coming a little early...
My former English colleagues already have their invitations to the party already issued.
<img src="http://homepage.mac.com/deanmcg/sig/sig.jpg">
This message was edited by Abrasive Dean on 1-13-03 @ 9:08 PM
NewYorkDragons80
01-14-2003, 02:51 PM
Just tell me what we did here
<marquee>
"In war there is no substitute for victory." -General Douglas MacArthur "If gold should rust, what will iron do?" -Geoffrey Chaucer "Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.-Romans 12:1</marquee>
<img src=http://members.aol.com/cityhawk80/myhomepage/nydragonssig.jpg?mtbrand=AOL_US>
DCPete walked me through how to FINALLY post a sig.
TheMojoPin
01-14-2003, 03:26 PM
He says you have terrible haircut...
<img src=http://img.ranchoweb.com/images/philex/mjpin1.gif>
VP #2 for the Coalition of Angry Micks, and the best goddamn American ever.
"You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."
Conservative collumnist, Robert Novak wrote a piece on the Republicans in the Senate being pissed off at Bush over his conduct on Iraq.
Yerdaddy -- I read that article too. What the Senators were especially angry with was Rumsfeld not consulting/involving the Congress as he is required to do. Additionally, I've been hearing some gripes from the Navy uniforms I work with that there is a lot of unease with Rumsfeld's meddling in the affairs of the services; he's been trying to make decisions for the services that should be made by each of the service secretaries.
The upcoming budget hearings in February should be interesting to say the least.
<IMG SRC="http://www.silentspic.com/images/sighost/ajdcsig.jpg">
A Skidmark production.
Yerdaddy
01-14-2003, 05:45 PM
John Warner, Chairman of the Armed Services Committee, is a Big Dog when it comes to the military. He just won his fifth term unapposed, he is the top recipient of defense industry contributions, former Under Secretary of Navy, volunteered for WWII and Korea, he doesn't play politics, and he doesn't let anyone shit on the military. Rumsfeld better not talk to the committee like he talks to the press. He'll be getting the Marcellus Wallace treatment. Bring out the gimp.
<img src="http://yerdaddy.homestead.com/files/pics/sigyalta.jpg" >
It was a joke goddammit!
Rumsfeld better not talk to the committee like he talks to the press. He'll be getting the Marcellus Wallace treatment. Bring out the gimp.
I've been to SASC hearings where Warner has gone off on Generals and Admirals. EVERYBODY in the room felt uncomfortable.
<IMG SRC="http://www.silentspic.com/images/sighost/ajdcsig.jpg">
A Skidmark production.
Yerdaddy
01-15-2003, 05:00 AM
I haven't read this yet, but I was shocked to hear about this report by <a href="http://www.csis.org/html/4cordesm.htm" target="_blank">Anthony Cordesman</a> at CSIS. Cordesman is a widely-respected military analyst who testifies before Congress on a regular basis, and has been an advisor to the Secretary of Defnse, John McCain, the Senate Armed Forces Committe, the Department of Energy, and NATO. CSIS is a conservative-leaning foreign policy think-tank. <a href="http://www.csis.org/features/iraq_wound.pdf" target="_blank">Planning for a Self-Inflicted Wound: US Policy to Reshape a Post-Saddam Iraq
</a>. (PDF file) I'll be reading this ASAP.
<img src="http://yerdaddy.homestead.com/files/pics/sigyalta.jpg" >
It was a joke goddammit!
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