Shiites and Sunnis

[furie]

Someone explain the despute between Shiite and Sunni muslims to me. What are the origins of the conflict. what are the main sticking points?

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[DJEvelEd]

Shiites flagulate with their left hand and smell like curry.
Sunnis flagulate with the right hand and smell like wet goat...
They fight over sand and camel toes...

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Big bird is Ferrall's bitch
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[TheMojoPin]

"I don't like you because YOUR god isn't as cool-smoove-bomb-diggety as MY god, and I'm going to kill you until you are dead because of it."

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2% << December boys got it BAD. >> "You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[furie]

"I don't like you because YOUR god isn't as cool-smoove-bomb-diggety as MY god, and I'm going to kill you until you are dead because of it."


there's more to it than that. that statement could be applied to any religion. but there's always an incident that starts the strife.

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[TheMojoPin]

Wait, you want ONE incident? Oh, to be that young and innocent again...

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2% << December boys got it BAD. >> "You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[furie]

give me any. I'm looking to better understand the situation.

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[TooCute]

If I recall eighth grade social studies class correctly (where they made us for some reason I can't recall write that thing that they have to say about "There is no God but Allah and Muhammed is his prophet" on a sheet of paper...I remember it because that was when I learned how to make things print in "landscape" mode...) the problem originally came when Muhammed died and the Shiites wanted someone... it wasn't his son, but it was some relative I think - to be his successor, and the Sunnis wanted one of his friends who wasn't atually related by blood to him. The Sunnis won, and the Shiites were mad. That's the origin... I think there are other sort of minor differences between the two - like one of the groups adds a few more words ont othat there is no god but allah thing and other minor things I don't remember...

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[A.J.]

Hope this/these help Furie:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A46582-2003Apr17.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A17886-2003Apr22.html

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[East Side Dave]

I like the Sunnis better; they just seem so darn bright and shiny whereas as the Shiites just seem so dirty and runny (particularly if you've been eating Tic-Tacs and Slim Jims like they're going out of style).

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[TooCute]

Ok, so I was close...I guess I got the who-wanted-who-for-successor mixed up

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[furie]

Thanks AJ & Toocute

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[A.J.]

Ok, so I was close...I guess I got the who-wanted-who-for-successor mixed up


Sorry TooCute -- I didn't see your post before I posted mine.

Impressive recall though!

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[Def Dave in SC]

Why dont we just moidalize them all. Then there wont be anymore of their pesky squabbling. Plus there would be much more holy real estate.


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[schmega]

i dont know the difference between them. but i do know the shiites are showing a bit of hostility towards us, and that makes them no better than animals.

[Doomstone]

If the Bush admin is serious about democracy in Iraq, will they support a Shiite president, since that's what the Iraqi majority want?

[furie]

If the Bush admin is serious about democracy in Iraq, will they support a Shiite president, since that's what the Iraqi majority want?


No, that's not what the majority wants. The majority wants a Theocracy, not a democracy. Presidents don't exist in Theocracies. And Sunni's are the majority in Iraq, Shiites the minority, so the majority wants a Sunni leader.

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[silera]

I keep reading that the Shiites represent 2/3 of Iraq. Maybe I'm understanding it wrong.


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[furie]

Ah yes, I looked it up. I stand corrected.

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[afterganger]

Did I miss a news story where all 14 million Shi'a Muslims in Iraq protested America and asked for a theocracy? I thought it was a little smaller than that.

Jeez, slow down. I think its somewhat insulting to assume anyone that considers themselves religious to automatically follow.

Being that only one major Shi'a group boycotted the Ur conference "the supreme etc etc", there are clearly groups representing the Shi'a population that have different views of the political future of Iraq that some extremists do.

We should be encouraged that some groups of various backgrounds actually sat and listened and talked and came up with a some sort of plan. Yes I know there were notable exceptions that didnt go. But lets try to look at a cup half full and not empty.

[Bergalad]

If the Bush admin is serious about democracy in Iraq, will they support a Shiite president, since that's what the Iraqi majority want?
I don't believe that just because a president was Shiite he would automatically be any worse than another religious background. Remember, we used to have a unspoken prohibition against Catholic presidents here in this country, and many would say that JFK turned out not too badly (not me, but many). Shiites and Sunnis can effectively work well together, as seen in Lebanon and Bahrain now. A further reason Iraq will not have a radical Shitte government is that Egypt and Saudi Arabia especially can't afford them to. The governments of these and other ME nations have been trying to contain and restrict the Shiite factions for hundreds of years, and they don't want a second Iran in the area. So what the US won't support (or allow to happen as Rummy said today) is anything like what Iran has, which is basically a Theocracy. Democracy can be established in Iraq, just like it has been in other countries with religious differences (America anyone?), but it will take a lot of time. I can't understand why so many are criticizing US policy in Iraq right now by somehow expecting a wholly-formed and stable government to have sprung up in a week's time. Let's not forget that from the time when the Revolutionary War began (1775) until the ratification of the Constitution (1788) was 13 years. It took America 13 years to form a stable, official government yet some expect Iraq to have it in a week or two?

[Wormwood]

"If your not muslim you aint Shiite!"

Sorry I couldnt resist.

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Howay the Lads!!!

[furie]

If the Bush admin is serious about democracy in Iraq, will they support a Shiite president, since that's what the Iraqi majority want?


When the US conquered Japan, we left behind a prosperous and Democratic country. Why do believe we'll do less here?

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[TheMojoPin]

When the US conquered Japan, we left behind a prosperous and Democratic country.

Yeah, but they also ended up inventing bukkake, animated sci-fi tentacle rape, and vending machines that contain used schoolgirl panties. YE GADS.

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2% << December boys got it BAD. >> "You can tell some lies about the good times you've had/But I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Yerdaddy]

Yeah, but they also ended up inventing bukkake, animated sci-fi tentacle rape, and vending machines that contain used schoolgirl panties.
Whats' a plane ticket to Japan cost these days?

FREE YERBOOBIES!

[schmega]

Yeah, but they also ended up inventing bukkake, animated sci-fi tentacle rape, and vending machines that contain used schoolgirl panties. YE GADS.

it dont make you a bad person.

japan and germany were better off because of us, but they're hard-working and foward-looking peoples. iraq is not. as long as they hang on the the notion of an islam state, they'll never progress like the west has. god knows we dont need another iran.

[FUNKMAN]

Yeah, but they also ended up inventing bukkake, animated sci-fi tentacle rape, and vending machines that contain used schoolgirl panties. YE GADS


and one of their leading porn stars murdered a girl and ate her flesh...

he got out for good behavior
:)

actually he did his time in a mental institution...

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[LiquidCourage]

Why does the media sometimes spell it "Shiites", but then other times "Shia"???

[high fly]

Like I've been saying all along, two things about the arabs--- they love a loser and when it comes time for a decision, they fail to take the one that's in their best interest.
They'll fuck up this chance to have a prosperous, democratic system, just you watch.
No matter what we do, they'll end up with a corrupt bunch of contemptuous bastards running the place who exploit the common people and rob them of whatever liberty we try to bring them.

" and they ask me why I drink"

[shamus mcfitzy]

They'll fuck up this chance to have a prosperous, democratic system, just you watch.


well even if they're electing an asshole, if he's democratically elected than democracy is doing its function. Obviously if we're trying to have a democratically run Iraq, we can't pick the leaders who we think are best for them. Maybe we may see a pro-US leader as the best one, but ultimately i don't see any arab country believing the US when it sides with Israel when it counts.

[Death Metal Moe]

They both have to wipe their asses with their hands.

Case closed.


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[sarina]

what is the whole shittes and sunnis debate? :confuse:

[torker]

Sunnis got Cher
http://www.seeing-stars.com/Images/People/Sonny&Cher(small).JPG
and coffee gives me the Shiites

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This message was edited by torker1313 on 1-15-05 @ 3:59 PM

[ChickenHawk]

They both have to wipe their asses with their hands.

Case closed.
Ditto.

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[TheMojoPin]

"Ditto?"

What, you wipe your ass with your hands, too?

We gots the solution. (http://www.ronfez.net/messageboard/viewmessages.cfm/Forum/52/Topic/43353/page/How_much_toilet_paper.htm)

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1979 << I love my drug buddy... >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 1-15-05 @ 4:43 PM

[ChickenHawk]

...*sigh*

ditúto (dt) n. pl. ditútos

1. The same as stated above or before.
2. A duplicate; a copy.

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[TheMojoPin]

Don't sigh, ass-hands. We still accept you.

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1979 << I love my drug buddy... >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[ChickenHawk]

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Check it out... it's collegiate style!

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[TheMojoPin]

I'll need a new copy first.

Yours has doo-doo on it.

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1979 << I love my drug buddy... >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[whoopsy]

When the US conquered Japan, we left behind a prosperous and Democratic country. Why do believe we'll do less here?


Pundits have argued that Iraq, like other Middle Eastern countries, would experience additional difficulties because it's a very tribalized society. People see themselves as Sunni or Kurd well before they see themselves as Iraqis. They attribute lack of nationalism to the fact that these countries were created by Western powers after war rather than by a shared sense of history/ideals. Always seemed a bit pessimistic to me. I think that just means it's gonna take more time.

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[TheMojoPin]

That's a HUGE part of the problem. Iraq as it exists today only exists because the British slapped it together when they were in control of the region as a colonial power. They forced all these seperate tribes together when they really shouldn't be in the same border in the first place. But a singular source of power was created, and since they all hate each other and don't want one group with more power then the others, they just keep fighting to be in control.

Honestly, in a perfect world we'd be able to break Iraq apart into a bunch of different smaller countries for each group...but that's simply impossible today.

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1979 << I love my drug buddy... >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Yerdaddy]

People see themselves as Sunni or Kurd well before they see themselves as Iraqis.
Actually that's not quite right. With the possible exception of the Kurds Iraqis identify themselves as Iraqis before their sects or tribes. There's a shitload of polling data at the Brookings Institute website if you want to check this out.

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[NewYorkDragons80]

That's a HUGE part of the problem. Iraq as it exists today only exists because the British slapped it together when they were in control of the region as a colonial power. They forced all these seperate tribes together when they really shouldn't be in the same border in the first place. But a singular source of power was created, and since they all hate each other and don't want one group with more power then the others, they just keep fighting to be in control.

Honestly, in a perfect world we'd be able to break Iraq apart into a bunch of different smaller countries for each group...but that's simply impossible today.
Hmm... If we look at the Balkans, we notice that founding nations based on ethnic groups isn't necessarily a good thing. At the time, the British probably made the right call considering the 1920's saw a renaissance of Turkish power that could have threatened Mesopotamia if it were 3 or 4 separate entities. It's very possible to unite them again. If Faisal I could do it without a history of these peoples cooperating as a nation, surely we could do it with an 80-year precedent.

I've always felt the 58 coup was one of the worst things that could've happened to them. They were a stable nation on their way to merging with Jordan. If they had merged the Kingdoms, it could've been a major player in the region and maybe the world.

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[Yerdaddy]

I've met about a dozen Iraqis here. Last night I had a three hour conversation with two young men from Fallujah and Ramadi. Americans have no fucking clue what the Iraqis are going through and what they think about us and our war. They were very hopeful at the beginning. But now virtually every Iraqi has lost a relative to the war. Virtually every young man has been imprisoned at one point or another. If an Iraqi who doesn't speak English is imprisoned there are no translators to take his answers to whatever questions and he sits in jail for months. I was told that if the Americans had made deals with the leaders of the cities early on and used Iraqi young men in the reconstruction efforts instead of arresting the leaders they hadn't chosen themelves and used foreign contracters to do the work they could have prevented most of the young men from joining the insurgency.

There was nothing fanatical or even hostile that these men had to express. They had sadness and some hope for the future that even I couldn't share. The answer of Iraqi loyalty to country over sect and tribes was that they were Iraqis first before the war, and even moreso now. They gave the American occupation their hopes. But the response to the insurgency (estimated to be 20,000 full-time fighters by the US military last time I checked), was to take military actions without trying to draw people away from the insurgency. The US never won the trust of the Iraqis. They barely tried. As for the vote this month - there are no political parties that Iraqis trust becuase they don't even know who the members of the parties are. There is no campaigning because there is no security for it. What little literature comes from the parties contains no names for lack of security. The Sunnis are going to be disenfranchised by this vote and they know it. There is nothing they can do about it and the US has no response to it. The US communication with the Iraqi people is virtually zero.

The solution that one of them offered is simply for the Americans to set a date by which they will leave. Iraqis have now come to expect that our plan is to set up bases and have a permanent presence in Iraq. But if they see a light at the end of the tunnel the insurgents will not risk dying for a short-term gain. But they also said it's not too late for the US to regain the Iraqis' trust. The Iraqis have no choice. So if the US were to change the tone of the occupation and work better with the Iraqis, apologize for some of the things they have done that have harmed the Iraqis then they could draw much of the insurgents away from resistance. I don't see that happening. But that was the view of two men who have been at the heart of this thing for almost two years. Take it for what it's worth.

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[Hottub]

Great info and insight from our man inside.
Quite a bit for us Americans to ponder.
Great job YD. Stay safe and have a great time.


ps some of your pix are STUNNING!!

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so does that mean that it was
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