holy shit, vote kucinich!

[Drudge Jr.]

i have many problems in my young, boring life. but among these is i cannot vote. that why i would like to persuade my friends on this board to back democratic presidential candidate hopeful, dennis kucinich.

the first thing i like about this guy is he's an anti-populist. if someone like lieberman or kerry gets the candidacy, they will lose no doubt to bush. however i think if someone with radical enough ideas, who isn't afraid to speak boldly gets chosen, that person would have a far better chance. enter dennis kucinich. a true progressive who is basically what i would like the democratic party to be. he has a few problems, but i actually like some of the things he says, i dont like much of what all the other candidates say.

the most important thing i've seen from him is his drug reform policy, which no other candidate has ever had the balls to come close to. also he'll do a bunch of other cool stuff, including canceling the tax cut that puts billions of dollars into the rich's pocketscanceling the wto and nafta, bring back depression-era work programs, and do his best to abolish the death penalty.

right now i think he's just what this country needs to get it moving in the right track, so i encourage all of you to support him and spread the word. i hate to support a democrat, but i really think bush needs to go.


more information on kucinich: http://www.kucinich.us/ (http://http://www.kucinich.us/)

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This message was edited by Drudge Jr. on 6-26-03 @ 2:03 PM

[A.J.]

if someone like lieberman or kerry gets the candidacy, they will lose no doubt to bush. however i think if someone with radical enough ideas, who isn't afraid to speak boldly gets chosen, that person would have a far better chance.


The Sharpton and Moseley-Braun campaigns will be relieved to hear this.

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[El Mudo]

also he'll do a bunch of other cool stuff, including canceling the tax cut that puts billions of dollars into the rich's pockets


The "rich" pay most of the taxes. Therefore they should get more back. How can you have tax cuts for people that don't pay taxes?

And i think ill vote for this guy in 04


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Turning your orbit around

[FiveB247]

The only way things like NAFTA ending, removal from WTO and other international agreements/ organizations would be for a popular based movement to do so. You can't just stick one person at the top and expect such changes would occur. Besides lobbyists, bought congressmen and corporate interests wouldn't allow for such actions to occur. Such policies would be shot down in Congress and wouldn't stand a chance and only make the person calling for them look silly.

Just Vote Green and help build the foundation for change and alternatives to the ramble of Dem's and Rep's.

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Why practice democratic values when you can practice capitalism?

[furie]

The "rich" pay most of the taxes. Therefore they should get more back. How can you have tax cuts for people that don't pay taxes?


not this again

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[alexc]

eliminating the WTO and trade agreements is stupid and dumb. International trade is major component of growth in our economy. anybody thinking otherwise is just living in a dream world. Trade allows capital from other countries to flow in. more capital means more investment and that means more jobs. any maneuver restraining trade has never worked. beswt example.. smoot-hawley act right after the stock market crash. It applied a high tariff on all foreign goods. this made the great depression even worse.
this whole idea of that only the rich paying taxes is crock bullshit if i have heard of it. pple from mid to lower income pay taxes in other ways other then income taxes. The tax they get screwed the most is sales tax. Sales taxes has been known to hurt lower and middle income folks much harder then higher income. It takes more percentage wise out of a poor persons income then a rich person.
i hate this whole class warfare bullshit both sides use. It does not contribute to the debate of the real economic issues..
enough of my ramblings

[FiveB247]

Alexc...when people talk of abolishing the WTO, World Bank or IMF...it is with the notion of bringing to light a more balanced global economy and creating new systems more just to properly deal with and combat world economic issues such as debt, trade, tariffs and development. The current systems are mere traps for undeveloped nations to get raped by the rich nations. Whether its tariffs, imports, exports, economic reforms, debt relieve or cheap labor....the current methods keep the poor in line and under control by the rich of other nations. Globalization, economic shifts and such aren't accidents or mere occurences....it is what is and has been going on and will only get worse in the future. People don't want to hear or believe such things...they'd rather have the miserable, desolate and poor suffer in silence.

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Why practice democratic values when you can practice capitalism?

[alexc]

blah blah globization is bad blalh blah..
anyway.. globilzation is bad thing or a good thing.. it is just a thing. you say globalization is just making underdeveloped countries and people shackled.. what a crock of shit.. Many countries are becoming more developed b/c of globalization. Best example, India, there are so many tech schools in areas like Bangalore. These schools produce the best tech people in the world. Many american companies are utilizing the talent in india for "back office" and other tech jobs. Something similiars has started to happen in Philipines. In China, global trade has helped a large amount of ppl. To say global trade and the WTO is bad patently false. Is there bad things with globalization ? YES workers should be treated better. Environment should do be protected with utmost effort. IMF and World Bank are bad institutions b/c they do shackle poor countries with extremely BAD bank loans.

This message was edited by alexc on 6-26-03 @ 5:30 PM

[Death Metal Moe]

Sweet merciful crap!

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DEATH FACTION/BACON FACTION 4 LIFE!!!
666%

[HBox]

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You are all making Chomsky smile.

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[Se7en]

If Drudge backs him, I must stay the hell away.

BTW, if the Dems pick an ultra-liberal to run against Bush, they WILL lose. In a very embarrassing way.

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Is the Captain a member of the proud <b>2%</b>?

[El Mudo]

BTW, if the Dems pick an ultra-liberal to run against Bush, they WILL lose. In a very embarrassing way.


People never vote for extremes on either side of the aisle. That's why we never had a President McGovern or a President Goldwater.

I think the Dems are going to basically give 04 up as a lost cause and concentrate on Hillary in 08.

And enough with the Green Party. If i wanted to live under socialism, id move to France

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[Heavy]

How can you have tax cuts for people that don't pay taxes?


I dont make that much, and 1/3 of my check is gone to taxes.

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[Drudge Jr.]

maybe its just intuition, but i have a feeling bush vs. anyone (except maybe dean or kucinich), bush will win, theres just so much ignorant support for him, and i think the only way it can be undone is someone actually challanging him, actually saying its time to end teh 24 (++) years of garbage we've been through. thats the only way i see this election turning productive.

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[FiveB247]

anyway.. globilzation is bad thing or a good thing.. it is just a thing. you say globalization is just making underdeveloped countries and people shackled.. what a crock of shit.. Many countries are becoming more developed b/c of globalization. Best example, India, there are so many tech schools in areas like Bangalore. These schools produce the best tech people in the world. Many american companies are utilizing the talent in india for "back office" and other tech jobs. Something similiars has started to happen in Philipines. In China, global trade has helped a large amount of ppl. To say global trade and the WTO is bad patently false. Is there bad things with globalization ? YES workers should be treated better. Environment should do be protected with utmost effort. IMF and World Bank are bad institutions b/c they do shackle poor countries with extremely BAD bank loans.

Globalization isn't just 'some thing' occurring randomly or by chance. It is the systematic transfer of wealth from poor to rich via trade, debt loans, economic shifting of policies via the IMF, World Bank, WTO amongst other inflicted causes. It's quite the opposite of just some random occurrence.

As for the development you speak of, name one country that has become successful from these types of economic reforms bullied by the IMF, WTO or World Bank? You can't cause it doesn't exist. They do increase economies in some smaller aspects...but mostly they cause separation of wealth, social catastrophes to already broken societies as well as make the small minority of rich in that nation richer as well as make foreign investors richer. It's not by accident or for radically unjust reasons protests, marches and violence becomes apparent at the hands of fighting these institutions. As for your mention of growth in India? Show me proof or fact...when you do that...you may even want to let the people of India in on your brave discovery...cause they know of no such thing. You find a few tech people development? That'd be like calling Cuba thriving due to it's cigars.

And for the record I never said global trade was bad...it's good if it's properly done. The system now is just set so that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. If you don't believe so..have a look to Mexico and see what NAFTA has done. Or have a look what "development" has done to South and Central America all via globalization and such institutions.

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Why practice democratic values when you can practice capitalism?

[Drudge Jr.]

i cant say it any better than that without ripping off chomsky/biafra/parenti... and to anyone else still unsure about if world trade is really all that bad should read a booklet called 20 years of reasons to resist world trade. i'm not sure if that's the exact title becasue i let someone borrow it and never saw it again, but it really opened my eyes.

also: many of the world's problems are due to world trade, including islamic terrorism.

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[TheMojoPin]

And enough with the Green Party. If i wanted to live under socialism, id move to France

Enough with the Democrats and the Republicans. If I wanted an impotent, petty, spiteful, ineffectual government, I'd move to...er, uhm...here.

Shit.

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[Death Metal Moe]

Enough with the Democrats and the Republicans. If I wanted an impotent, petty, spiteful, ineffectual government, I'd move to...er, uhm...here


Not impotent anymore!

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[alexc]

Globalization isn't just 'some thing' occurring randomly or by chance. It is the systematic transfer of wealth from poor to rich via trade, debt loans, economic shifting of policies via the IMF, World Bank, WTO amongst other inflicted causes. It's quite the opposite of just some random occurrence.

As for the development you speak of, name one country that has become successful from these types of economic reforms bullied by the IMF, WTO or World Bank? You can't cause it doesn't exist. They do increase economies in some smaller aspects...but mostly they cause separation of wealth, social catastrophes to already broken societies as well as make the small minority of rich in that nation richer as well as make foreign investors richer. It's not by accident or for radically unjust reasons protests, marches and violence becomes apparent at the hands of fighting these institutions. As for your mention of growth in India? Show me proof or fact...when you do that...you may even want to let the people of India in on your brave discovery...cause they know of no such thing. You find a few tech people development? That'd be like calling Cuba thriving due to it's cigars.

And for the record I never said global trade was bad...it's good if it's properly done. The system now is just set so that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. If you don't believe so..have a look to Mexico and see what NAFTA has done. Or have a look what "development" has done to South and Central America all via globalization and such institutions.


Umm.. do you realize there a whole campuses of offices in India that handle services for american companies? GE capital uses India base to handle Customer Service. AOL has moved some of there customer support to phillipines. I know of various companies that act outsourced developers in India. One such company in India is Infosys. Here is new proof of Indian Economic Growth (http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_292347,0002.htm). Gaungzhou and Shenzhen China things has changed to Huge degrees. It has become a Modern city. In South America, there are people realizing they have to change there economy. Read this article (http://www.linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=6915&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0). Best part they aren't using American proprietary software! here is another example technology and globalization helping people. It is called Planet Finance (http://www.planetfinance.org). Another group that help underdeveloped countries is Geekcorps (http://www.geekcorps.org). What is your solution other then getting rid of poverty? I totally agree that the world bank and the IMF doesn't help. What is needed in some of these countries for workers in these developing countries to get MORE of the profits from their work. We need rules to make sure sweatshops in foreign countries don't exist anymore. I totally agree there are unfair things going on. We need to fight it. It is much better to do it properly.

[FiveB247]

Like I said before...some policies enable growth..but overall development of a society does not occur.

You talk of one industry in a large nation. People cheer for the technological improvements and industry, which has become prevelant in their society. But it is not in their own interest...it's in foreign nations and investors like the US interest to create facilities and create improvements for cheapor labor and greater profit. You failed to mention the huge decrease of India's agricultural industry which has been transfered to importing foreign goods and services. But such actions and policies are cheered by India's elites, rich and foreigners.

Look (http://www.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=10300)
Corruption (http://finance.indiainfo.com/news/2003/05/23/23blackmoney.html)

As you can see, the IMF has loaned India huge amounts of which many are still outstanding. (http://www.indiaonestop.com/imf.htm)

World Bank and India (http://www.indiaonestop.com/worldbank.htm)

These are just a few "development" tactics which are praised in neoliberal economics but are harmful to the nations practicing them.

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Why practice democratic values when you can practice capitalism?

[alexc]

so what do want to then? what is your goddamn solution.. bitching and moaning is fine.. . it don't help people. are you suggesting we do what? What i want is people to help themselves. I am not arguing that IMF is bad. I saying that you just can't throw the baby with the bath water . There should be a real social safety net. what economic system do you want?

[FiveB247]

The way the current global economy is now set up is to benefit those rich nations and exploit the lesser, un-developed nations. The institutions such as the IMF, World Bank, etc were created and were supposed to be under control of the UN general assembly...they no longer hold accountability to them due to outside funding, debt relief and bank-rolling. The system for development, in my opinion, should be one that helps those with the same methods that has made our economy thrive. Not just give handouts and hope for the best. It would be a greater good if the US instead of just giving handouts, debt relieve and such, simply was used as a guidance tool and teach these nations how to properly manage themselves. But when it comes down to it, The current methodology and policies create settings which benefit our interests. The development we promise them is not the development they wish to seek. In most of the current settings (whether political, social, or economic), we fund and aid our own interests and promise 'democracy' and 'development', but its not the same type we practice nor employ to have the nation we now have. The US talks of these issues but in fact actually trades them off for our own interest, profit and stability. Quite simply, that's why most of the world hates our nation. The last thing the US wants is a world full of democracies which dictate their own policies, are economically sound as well as are not responsible to answer to nor follow the US's interests. It is a type of empire that the US employs, just not the same methods as the ones from history's past. We don't take over nations, we take over their policies and drive their economies into either working along with us or becoming desolate. This is the Pax Americana, New World Order or New American Century, and it's not conspiracy or radical belief...it is what our policies enforce, encompass and dictate to us and the rest of the globe.

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Why practice democratic values when you can practice capitalism?

[alexc]

what do you mean by doing things they don't want to do? In globalization you need democracy and rule of low to survive. We can't prevent democratization from happening. Peace Corp is something you advocate which i would agree with you. Have you read the book "Lexus and the Olvie Tree" ? A good book gives solid understanding of what globalization is.

[FiveB247]

Yes I actually have read that. I personally feel he states many solid and valid facts and points, yet uses them to displace responsibility and accountability where it really lies. Basically it's defense for exploitation on behalf of the rich. Robert Kagan does uses the same logic in "Of Paradise and Power" when talking of US and European relations.

When I spoke of economic reforms that are enabled by global institutions, I was refering to the notion that most nations either are forced to go along with these drastic reforms or suffer. There's no middle ground. It's a 'de facto' style policy set forth by global organizations and institutions. These undeveloped nations are promised development and growth and never see such things. The rich of these nations get rich and the poor get poorer. Envrionmental damage, separation of wealth, foreign investors profiting off of poor working conditions and awful social conditions is what these nations are in store for when they take on the loans, programs and reforms these organizations offer. There is no alternative, either attempt change and suffer with hopes of growth (which has never been done) or suffer in silence.

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Why practice democratic values when you can practice capitalism?

[El Mudo]

Enough with the Democrats and the Republicans. If I wanted an impotent, petty, spiteful, ineffectual government, I'd move to...er, uhm...here.


That's why the size of the federal government should be kept to a minimum.

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States Rights are dying

[TheMojoPin]

El, you'll only get 100% agreement from me on these issues. That's why I ALWAYS vote in my local elections, because it's frightening the number of measures that are put to vote that would basically toss over more of the state's rights/laws to the federal government.

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