Kennedy Assassination, 9/11, and other jokes

[Heavy]

I stumbled across this page on bartcop.com.

JFK (http://www.geocities.com/verisimus101/)

Now most everyone has a thoery they believe. If youre interested in this and havnt read "Mafia Kingfish", then I suggest you read it ASAP as it links Carlos Marcella to both Kennedy murders and tells How and why etc, and its the thoery I believe %100 in. It's a great read.

Now as always, if your answer isnt here then dont vote yet. Tell me and I'll add the choice. Theres many combo's you can come up with and 10 sports may not fit them all. I'll start off light and add as needed.

Who dun it?

Actually after trying to list these, I realized for every person or orginization i can list, i would have to include other names/ organizations and the list could be endless. So I'm starting off REAL LIGHT

Great, I cant even make a Poll so just talk about it.

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This message was edited by johneewadd on 9-21-03 @ 3:23 PM

[Tall_James]

I'm fascinated by conspiracy theory. The JFK story is one of the classics. That and Roswell, and the Masons. Oh...and the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

<img src=http://users.rcn.com/jamespatton/evil.jpg>
In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52 Vincent and a red headed girl.

[furie]

when are the reports due to be declassified?

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[NewYorkDragons80]

The more I examine the assassination, the more I feel that Oswald either acted alone or in a small group of conspirators. I definitely don't buy the theories that Johnson or American Generals orchestrated the assassination to begin a war that Kennedy would have fought anyway.

<marquee>
"To insist on strength is not war-mongering. It is peace-mongering." -Senator Barry M. Goldwater "If gold should rust, what will iron do?" -Geoffrey Chaucer "Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.-Romans 12:1</marquee>
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[Heavy]

Well I tried my best to uncover the truth behind all this madness. What I found may shock you. Kennedys' killer (http://home.pacbell.net/hrwhite3/Contents.htm)

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[Tall_James]

Johnee...you crack me up!

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In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52 Vincent and a red headed girl.

[Heavy]

Thats why I'm here


























But can you even believe HE was responsible?!!!?

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A proportionate amount of props are equally distributed to my nigga's Fluff, Alexxis, CanOfSoup15, WWFallon and Katylina

[TheMojoPin]

From about the age of 13 (When "JFK" came out...excellent film, but almost complete fiction) until I was 21, I was on a JFK conspiracy kick and read basically everything there is out there on the subject. And ten years later I've come to the personal conclusion that Oswald was indeed the shooter.

My question is this...could Oswald have fired the head shot? My phsyics suck, but JFK was hit with what appeared to be an exploding bullet, or one that fragmented. Now, yes, the INITIAL hit of a bullet from the book depository would push JFK forward...but wouldn't the explosion of the bullet out of the front/right part of his head (As it appears to do) then push him back...and to the left? Like I said, I suck at physics, so I could be totally wrong.

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 11-22-03 @ 3:06 PM

[Johnny Fontane]

I wish someone would pose a theory that JFK shot himself. Or maybe his head exploded because he was choking on a chicken bone.

It's possible.

http://www.grandinotizie.it/image/g/000/00040.jpg

"You think you're God Almighty, but you know what you are? You're a cheap, lousy, dirty, stinkin' mug! And I'm glad what I done to you, ya hear that? I'm glad what I done!"

[TheMojoPin]

Even more fun is the theory that JFK was "accidentally" shot in the head by the secret service agent armed with a machine gun in the car behind him as he leapt into action...

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[Heavy]

why was he leaping into action i the first place?

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A proportionate amount of props are equally distributed to my nigga's Fluff, Alexxis, CanOfSoup15, WWFallon and Katylina

[shamus mcfitzy]

i wouldn't put it past any of the communists to shoot JFK. You know those communists...

[Mike Teacher]

Great, I cant even make a Poll


Coming from Mr. Wadd, this is Serious!

'Flufflers!!!...Attend to Mr. Holmes!!!...'

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[sr71blackbird]

Thank you Dallas! Good Night!
http://www.guterman.net/jfkzone/photos/images/oswaldsinger.jpg


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Many Thanks Soup!

[NewYorkDragons80]

"JFK" came out...excellent film, but almost complete fiction
That's not true. The movie was dead on about Jim Garrison being New Orleans DA...

<marquee>
"To insist on strength is not war-mongering. It is peace-mongering." -Senator Barry M. Goldwater "If gold should rust, what will iron do?" -Geoffrey Chaucer "Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.-Romans 12:1</marquee>
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[TheMojoPin]

why was he leaping into action i the first place?

Because of the first few shots. Supposedly he was standing up to get into a ready firing position (This theory asserts also asserts that Oswald was the only other shooter, so I don't know what the agent swas getting ready to shoot at) when the car braked, threw him forward, and the rifle went off, nailing JFK in the back of the head. Then, OF COURSE, the government covered it up because it was so embarassing...and apparently convinced a few hundred people in the plaza that day that it NEVER happened.

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[TheMojoPin]

That's not true. The movie was dead on about Jim Garrison being New Orleans DA...

Yes, and Kennedy WAS really shot on Novemeber 22nd, 1963...in Dallas! Just like the movie so bravely told us! REMARKABLE accuracy...

http://www.hatshapers.com/images/groucho-tophat.jpg

But still, I LOVE that movie. Classic performances, and its editing is nothing short of brilliant.

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 9-22-03 @ 10:04 AM

[high fly]

Then there's the one about the limo driver turning around and shooting the prez....

No, really, Oswald couldn't have done it alone.
His marksmanship was dreadful from the offhand position and he would have been shooting through the leaves and branches of a tree in order to get off the fatal head shot.
He could not have gotten off all the shots that were fired with a weapon with such a loose action, maladjusted scope and tightened sling.
There are a number of other reasons that Oswald couldn't have acted alone and too many other wierd things that went on for one to conclude that Oswald was a lone nutcase assassin and that all else was mere coincidence.
As to who else was in the conspiracy, I doubt we will ever know.
I think much of the guessing and theorizing reflects one's own personal prejudice.
My best guess would include guys involved in the Mafia/CIA anti- Castro operations. Whether it was just relatively low-level guys or whether it went higher to more senior officials, I wish I knew.

What we can be sure of is that the nation lost a man tremendously beloved by the citizenry, an affection that some Republicans have been desperately trying to replicate with the phony Ronald Reagan hagiography that's been put out in recent years.
In spite of the best efforts of some to smear the man, the respect, admiration and love felt by Americans for JFK has not diminished.


" and they ask me why I drink"

[NewYorkDragons80]

Classic performances, and its editing is nothing short of brilliant.

The editing was out of this world. Oliver Stone sneaking in film of Curtis Lemay went a long way in subliminally convincing the audience that the military was responsible.

<marquee>
"To insist on strength is not war-mongering. It is peace-mongering." -Senator Barry M. Goldwater "If gold should rust, what will iron do?" -Geoffrey Chaucer "Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.-Romans 12:1</marquee>
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[TheMojoPin]

HF, even if Oswald didn't act alone, it's pretty clear he took a few shots. He probably squeezed off three, one of which hit JFK in the back, and hit Connely, one very probably hitting Kennedy in the head and the other that missed the car. His actions before and after the shootings are too damn perfect for someone who just has been cluelessly "set up".

And Oswald wasn't a shabby shot. Sure, he wasn't a great sniper by Marine standards, but he was far, FAR better than the average gun owner.

And I'm still curious about my earlier question...maybe Mike the Teacher could tell...could a head shot from the rear with a bullet exploding out the front push JFK back and to the left?

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 11-22-03 @ 3:04 PM

[NewYorkDragons80]

Essay explaining shot (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/headwnd.htm)

This one is a little more pleasing for the eye (even if it is a little shaky). Video of Melon eating lead (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/melon-sh.mpg)

<marquee>
"To insist on strength is not war-mongering. It is peace-mongering." -Senator Barry M. Goldwater "If gold should rust, what will iron do?" -Geoffrey Chaucer "Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.-Romans 12:1</marquee>
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[Heavy]

heres the answers. Look over all the chapters. that man is linked to the MLK assasination, JFK, and Nixon. (http://www.crimelibrary.com/gangsters_outlaws/family_epics/marcello/11.html?sect=16)

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[TheMojoPin]

You do realize how stupid it would be of the mob to kill the president, right? These guys can't even hide their crooked books, much less keep this thing going for 40 years...

Thanks for the report, NYD. Very interesting...

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 9-22-03 @ 8:41 PM

[sr71blackbird]

I had a friend who was really into this subject and he would tell me about this evidence he kept referring to as "bullet tracings" that someone had discovered in the Zapruder film itself that corresponded in all the other films of that event that he indicated showed the passage of bullets through the air. He said that the bullet tracings show several directions, including one or two that originated out from a sewer opening down the road in front of the presidents car. He said that the tracings of the bullets had an effect on the air as they passed through it and it was visible when the film was filtered in such a way that their speed and direction are tracked. Now, I cant understand how such a thing is possible, especially unless a camera and film were designed to look for such effects by design. Has anyone heard of this theory or know of its validity?

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Many Thanks Soup!

[Mike Teacher]

Quote: And I'm still curious about my earlier question...maybe Mike the Teacher could tell...could a head shot from the rear with a bullet exploding out the front push JFK back and to the left?

----------------------

There's a great DVD out called Image of An Assasination. Amazing stuff; if you haven't seen this, you haven't seen the Zapruder film. They took the `original' negative and scanned them fram by frame. The computer people then took away much of the film defects, scratches, etc. They also motion-corrected the images, lining them up so they show you a version where it looks like there is NO Camera motion whatsoever. They also show the full-frams, including sprocket holes, since images were indeed there also.

I've read about 5 of the JFK books; there are so many. Anyway tackling some things mentioned in the thread:

Head shot from the rear = JFK back and to the left?

The nervous system works at about 300mph, and we have good evidence of bodies doing all kinds of jumping when shot. A `Startle' reflex would indeed look like a person's head was going up and back, imagine your sleeping at your desk at school and the teacher screams; that's the startle reflex; you tend to straighten the body, such a startle from a projectile is possible.

Having said that, the Zapruder film shows us:

1. JFK was shot at for quite a few seconds, as evidenced that he is wounded from a shot to the throat when his head emerges behind the street sign on the film. He reaches up, grabbing his neck; as Connoly reacts to his wound. Then seemingly eons later, the head shot. That head shot to me looks like the energy came from the front. It doesn't look like a reflexive startle response to me; it looks like his head is being blown back.

2. The Magic Bullet Theory for me, doesn't cut it. I'm a bit of a shooter and bullets do some very very weird things when they go through stuff. The ballistics films show gelatin which is cool; but it neglects Bone, which Is a whole new ballgame. Bullets have taken seeming radical turns; this has been proven from ballistics evidence of other shooting crimes, but the Warren Comission is asking that bullet to do way to much.

3. If Oswald acted alone, Zapruder shows us this, JFK was hit at least once in the throat, and in the final headshot. As the son of a Lt. Col. Marine, I know there's isn't a Marine that's not a great shooter, you won't get out of Boot. But those two shots, moving target, at that distance, with those sight-lines, with a bolt-action rifle? And it's really three shots, from the shells? That's acting a lot of Oswald.

As for Kevin Costner playing Garrison, Garrison was a person with a fairly substantial record of mental illness. The trial he brought forth against Clay Shaw was such a joke it took the jury less then an hour to rule he was full of it. He had a bit of trouble distinguishing reality from fantasy.
Yes, there is a school of thought that traces of the bullets can be gleamed from the Zapruder film. Bullets do weird things in the air, sometimes leaving vapor trails not unlike a plane. Little disturbances in the atmosphere, or perhaps the blur of the bullet itself.

There is so much weirdness associated with the JFK assassination that one can't wonder what really happened. One thing is for sure; there were a whole lot of chances for a whole lot of people to mess with JFKs body post-assasination. Legally, the body never should have left that county; believe it or not, assassinating a President was not [yet] a Federal Crime. Anyway.


http://www.miketheteacher.com

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[TheMojoPin]

sr71, you might be talking about THIS...

SECRETS OF A HOMICIDE (http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/content.htm)

I have the DVD, Mike, and actually an old CD-Rom that I find even MORE valuable, even though it's at least ten years old and doesn't have the new digital transfer. It's called "JFK Assassination: A Visual Investigation". It came out in 1993 and was put out by Medio. The amount of information it has on there is MASSIVE. Thousands of photos, books and documents, as well as the MULTIPLE films shot of the motorcade that caught all of or parts of the assassination, from different angles from the Zapruder film. It also has a number of computer-generated simulations of the very numerous scenarios as to how the assassination may have gone down. It's long out of print, and that's a shame, because it's an insanely useful resource.

But I appreciate the response. I seem to be on the opposite side as I have come to believe over the last ten years that not only could Oswald have fired at least FOUR times in the time allowed, but could have hit the targets, delivered the head shot, AND that the "Magic Bullet Theory" is VERY probable and grossly misrepresented.

Observe.

Magic Bullet? (http://www.jfk-online.com/jfk100sbt.html)

"Magic" bullet found in hospital very likely one that struck both men. (http://karws.gso.uri.edu/JFK/issues_and_evidence/single-bullet_theory/Pristine_bullet/Pristine_bullet.html)

Neutron-Activation Analysis and the John F. Kennedy Assassination (http://karws.gso.uri.edu/JFK/Scientific_topics/NAA/NAA_and_assassination_II/NAA_and_assassination.html)

But that's the odd beauty of all this...we DON'T know, and theories are a dime a dozen...

And just so you get a full scope of how historical and factually wonky Stone's "JFK" is, take a gander at this page...

One Hundred Errors of Fact and Judgment In Oliver Stone's "JFK" (http://www.jfk-online.com/jfk100menu.html)

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 9-23-03 @ 12:59 AM

[Heavy]

hey, if you dont want the truth, then dont read my link.

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[NewYorkDragons80]

Mike brings up a great point. Garrison had the right idea and did a great job proving that there was a conspiracy, but he really had nothing on Clay Shaw. Even in Stone's version of history (which, for me, was the first version of the story I had ever heard), I thought his case was weak.

<marquee>
"To insist on strength is not war-mongering. It is peace-mongering." -Senator Barry M. Goldwater "If gold should rust, what will iron do?" -Geoffrey Chaucer "Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.-Romans 12:1</marquee>
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[high fly]

Oswald wasn't a shabby shot

Soirry, MOJO, gotta disagree.
From the offhand, or standing position, he hardly scored, if at all, on the range when it came time to qualify while he was in the Marines. Just about his only scoring came from the prone position.
Also, he apparently didn't use the sling around his arm to steady the weapon, which would further degrade his accuracy.
Combine that with the fact that he was shooting through a tree, tha action on the weapon was very loose, and the scope was off, it is doubtful, nearly impossible that he could have pulled off the assassination.
On that, I think we're agreed anyway.

" and they ask me why I drink"

[TheMojoPin]

Mike brings up a great point. Garrison had the right idea and did a great job proving that there was a conspiracy

Did he? Even most modern conspiracy theorists acknowledge that Garrison's "conspiracy" consisted mostly of unproven guesses, rumors, unreliable witnesses, forced testimony and flat-out lies. Garrison's little dance in front of the cameras wasn't even the big revelation that "JFK" makes it out to be in terms of setting the idea of an assassination in the mind of the public. By 1967, conspiracy books on the assassiantion had already become a cottage industry and plenty of DC officials throughout the government were asking questions and checking the facts for a number of reasons.

http://www.jfk-online.com/jfk100bigjim.html

I was a big supporter of Garrison and his false public image until I read Patricia Lambert's "False Witness" in 1999 and saw how it absolutely destroyed Garrison's laughable case bit by bit. Not only could the man not make a case against Shaw, he couldn't determine ANYTHING of any sort of reality or possibility towards a conspiracy...so he simply assumed or made things up where he needed to.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0871318792/qid=1064385133/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/103-3568978-5843015?v=glance&s=books

Gerald Posner's "Case Closed" pretty much makes the most lucid and well-explained Kennedy assassination theory around...that Oswald acted alone.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0385474466/ref=cm_cr_dp_2_1/103-3568978-5843015?v=glance&s=books&vi=customer-reviews

Read the customer comments to see how much absolute denial most hardcore conspiracy theorists live in. Ignoring the obvious evidence all but slapping them in the face foir the sake of something more "dramatic" and meaningful. Like they don't want to believe this little commie nothing killed the president...so they don't, plain and simple.

Trust me, I spent 10 years believing ANY conspiracy over the idea that Oswald acted alone before finally realizing that I had been going out of my way to avoid the obvious for the sake of something more dramatic and "important". In any other murder case, if a suspect had a fourth of the evidence Oswald had against him they probably would have gotten the chair. NOBODY on the planet, our government included, has the power to hide something this effectively and "cleanly" for 40 years now.

High Fly, Oswald's shooting records and scores with the Marines are on public record both with the Warren Commission (pgs. 189-193) and the National Archives. His scores indicate he was really no better or worse than the average Marine, and the shots he would have had to have pulled off in Dealy Plaza that day were not exceedingly difficult. A relatively close target in a moving vehicle that was going 10 mph at the most during the firing time isn't too hard to hit for a Marine-trained marksman. The gun was not in 100% perfect working order, but it was perfectly serviceable for the conditions and numerous simulations were made with the gun by experts afterwards that showed they could hit a target similar to what Oswald would have seen on Novemeber 22nd. People seem to woefully overestimate how difficult those shots would have been for someone without Oswald's training and recorded abilities. He, as a trained marskman, had 6-8 seconds to get off three shots, one of which missed, at the president from an elevated, close position at a slow-moving target. What's so hard to believe?

And the tree is a complete red herring. Oswald's first shot would have been the only one impaired by the tree, and odds are that that shot is the one that most likely missed the car completely. The second shot struck Kennedy in the back and led to the wounds in both he and the governor (There's nothing "magic" about this. See my links above). The third shot struck Kennedy in the head and exploded near the front right part of his skull, throwing him back. It's painfully obvious, and really not as dramatic as people seem to want

[Heavy]

Mojo, I got something for sale. Just wondering if you'll buy it.













TOO BIG

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This message was edited by johneewadd on 9-24-03 @ 11:52 AM

[Reephdweller]

I think Lee Harvey Oswald did it and acted alone and somehow pulled off the most amazing shots that no one else could.

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<font size="1" color="red">
<marquee behavior=alternate bgcolor="#FFFFFF">right now you could care less about me...
but soon enough you will care, by the time Im done</marquee> </font>

[sr71blackbird]

What, now people are selling the Williamsburg Bridge now instead of the Brooklyn?


But regarding this:

sr71, you might be talking about THIS...


I checked that out, and its amazing, but I didnt see anything on bullet tracings somehow appearing in the film. I dont know how anyone has the resources to invest in that, rebuilding the Plaza and the limos motion through time and space digitally in a computer program. I was kind of suprised that does show how Oswald could have gotten off all those shots while debunking the "magic bullet" myth. The guy I know was telling me that the bullets affected the air which (I cant imagine how it would be visible on 40 year old celluliod) they passed through on the way to their target. I just dont know where he was getting his source from.

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Many Thanks Soup!

[sr71blackbird]

The Brooklyn Bridge looks like this

http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/fnart/fa267/19th/brooklyn.jpg

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Many Thanks Soup!

[TheMojoPin]

I think Lee Harvey Oswald did it and acted alone and somehow pulled off the most amazing shots that no one else could.

Again, what is so "amazing" about them? Once you get past the falsehoods, mistakes and assumptions of the conspiracy theorists, it DOES make sense. Experts HAVE been able to recreate his shots. Where the conspiracy theorists come up is they claim "nobody was able to hit the target three times in 6 seconds (The timing is wrong anyways. Film evidence shows Oswald had slightly more than 8 seconds)". They're right. Neither could Oswald. The Warren report said from the beginning that one of Oswald's shots (Most likely the first) missed the car completely (Striking the curb near the underpass). So nobody's claiming that Oswald's shots all hit. That only comes in when a conspiracy theorist aussmes that the "magic bullet theory" is impossible and has to explain all the wounds (WithOUT ever explaining where the bullet that wounded Kennedy's back/throat ended up) with more than one bullet.

The "magic bullet theory" isn't nearly as "magical" as people want to believe it is, as numerous studies in the last ten years have shown (Again see my several links above). The film and medical evidence cleary show a head shot from Oswald's position with his gun is perfectly possible and more than likely. Kennedy and Connelly simply have NO wounds that could have come from the front. A bullet to the front of his head, as often suggested, would have exploded out the BACK (If we're assuming it behaved as the actual kill shot) and pitched Kennedy FORWARD. Such a wound would no doubt be on the LEFT or CENTER part of his head given the claimed position of the "grassy knoll" shooter". But the films and autopsy photos blatantly show Kennedy's head wound on the RIGHT side of his head towards the back...jiving with a shot from the rear that exploded FORWARD, as a bullet fired from Oswald's gun would have done.

Here's an an excerpt from an excellent paper by a Prof. Ken Rahn of the University of Rhode Island:

[quote]This complex motion can be viewed as containing three components. The first is Mrs. Kennedy's, in which she pulls, no doubt reflexively, away from her husband's exploding head by recoiling backward (while straightening up) and to her left. The second is of Mr. Kennedy's right arm and shoulder, which lift upward as his trunk rotates counterclockwise (leftward) about his hip, while his upper torso is moving backward and to his left. This motion continues until his left arm appears to hit the rear seat in about 319, after which he bounces forward. Third is his head, which moves back steadily from 313 to about 320 or 321 (one or two frames after his torso has begun to move forward), all the while rotating counterclockwise faster than his upper torso, until by about 321 we are given a nearly direct view of the rear of his head, which incidentally shows no evidence of the massive blowout so often claimed from the reports of the Parkland medical personnel. The visible damage is clearly to the right occipitoparietal area of the head, or very roughly in the upper part of the right rear half of the head (just where the autopsy physicians placed it). In no way is the damage centered in the rear of the head [as some conspiracy-oriented researchers claim].
The key point here is that this complex rearward movement is not compatible with a direct hit of a bullet from the right front. The head does not snap backward rapidly the way it snapped forward, even though it was perfectly free to do so. Rather the head starts moving backward slowly and gains momentum over several frames. There is no cloud of brain matter to the rear as there was to the front. There is no damage to the left hemisphere of his brain, as there would have to be with a hit from the right. There is no cone of tiny fragments going from right to left in the brain, and no exit wound on the left side. No, the rearward motion was of JFK's entire upper torso, with the head just moving along with the neck. It is a vicious recoil of sort

[neoprosto]

What is the "NIX" film, and what is the angle/line of sight? When did this film come to light? I cannot make out the image to figure out what that is, and I looked at the website you cited yesterday, and had the same problem. I never heard of this film - please give me a few details, thanks.

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[Heavy]

Sure, a lone gunman isn't as "fun 'n' sexy" as the other theories out there,

Or accurate:
Lee Harvey Oswald is presented to history as the lone gunman. And yet.

His supposed weapon and all the bullets do not match. The rifle, allegedly the murder weapon, is a cheap, mail order, antiquated bolt-action firearm of a dubious quality. It is fired consequentially at impossible speeds, with unbelievable accuracy by a man known to be a mediocre marksman. Bullets perform impossible, almost magical rites of passage across an air space at times blocked and obscured by trees. The wounds of the president present a confusing pathological mystery.

It was not until the summer of 1979, almost sixteen years after the event that the American public were told by the House Assassination Committee that President Kennedy "was probably killed as a result of a conspiracy." It stated that although Oswald may have shot at the president, he was part of a bigger picture; one that could have included Carlos Marcello and Santo Trafficante Jr. They had, the committee found, "the motive, means and opportunity to assassinate President Kennedy." The chief counsel of the committee, Professor Robert Blakey (the man who conceived the RICO section of the 1970 Organized Crime Control Act.) believed that there might have been three gunmen.

The full story about the murder of President Kennedy may never be disclosed. But the links between Oswald, whose uncle and surrogate father, Dutz Murret, worked as a bookie for the Marcello organization, and whose mother, Marguerite, dated members of the Marcello organization. Ruby, his killer, had definite links to the Dallas mob and Carlos Marcello and Santo Trafficante Jr. These links are plain for all looking to search beyond the mists of obfuscation that lie like some evil swamp gas across the plains of history.



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[mikeyboy]

Or accurate:
Lee Harvey Oswald is presented to history as the lone gunman. And yet.

His supposed weapon and all the bullets do not match. The rifle, allegedly the murder weapon, is a cheap, mail order, antiquated bolt-action firearm of a dubious quality. It is fired consequentially at impossible speeds, with unbelievable accuracy by a man known to be a mediocre marksman. Bullets perform impossible, almost magical rites of passage across an air space at times blocked and obscured by trees. The wounds of the president present a confusing pathological mystery.

It was not until the summer of 1979, almost sixteen years after the event that the American public were told by the House Assassination Committee that President Kennedy "was probably killed as a result of a conspiracy." It stated that although Oswald may have shot at the president, he was part of a bigger picture; one that could have included Carlos Marcello and Santo Trafficante Jr. They had, the committee found, "the motive, means and opportunity to assassinate President Kennedy." The chief counsel of the committee, Professor Robert Blakey (the man who conceived the RICO section of the 1970 Organized Crime Control Act.) believed that there might have been three gunmen.

The full story about the murder of President Kennedy may never be disclosed. But the links between Oswald, whose uncle and surrogate father, Dutz Murret, worked as a bookie for the Marcello organization, and whose mother, Marguerite, dated members of the Marcello organization. Ruby, his killer, had definite links to the Dallas mob and Carlos Marcello and Santo Trafficante Jr. These links are plain for all looking to search beyond the mists of obfuscation that lie like some evil swamp gas across the plains of history.


Here's a thought. Don't try to pass off the work of others as your own. (http://www.crimelibrary.com/gangsters_outlaws/family_epics/marcello/11.html?sect=16)

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[high fly]

MOJO, the guys Oswald hunted with in the Soviet Union said he couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. I haven't looked at his range scores in a long time. I recall reading a book where the author interviewed the Marines he was on the range with and that was where I got the part about him not hitting much, if anything from the offhand position.

I know of no test where they used guys with range scores similar to Oswald's to attempt the shots he supposedly made.

It seems mighty strange that he'd even attempt a shot through a tree like that.
I think Oswald was, as he said, "a patsy" set up to take the fall.

One thing I noticed as I went through so many of the books is that I found that my opinion was colored by whichever book I read first. Then at times there would be books that contradicted each other that both sounded reasonable in their conclusions and solid in their research.

One sort of amusing aspect of the whole thing is the way the various authors are so intent on bashing the others.


" and they ask me why I drink"

This message was edited by high fly on 9-24-03 @ 2:04 PM

[Heavy]

Here's a thought. Don't try to pass off the work of others as your own.


Thanks for not paying attention. I already posted that link

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[mikeyboy]

Thanks for not paying attention. I already posted that link


Wrong. I saw the link you posted. You didn't make it clear in your post that those weren't your own words. You know how to use the quote and link functions. Give credit where credit is due.

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[neoprosto]

Wrong.

Hear, hear.

Own up, Johnsee. You obviously tried to look smart, but instead are guilty of direct plagiarism.

Remember for next time.

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[Heavy]

Wrong. I saw the link you posted.

If you think I'm wrong, then youre wrong. I posted the link you posted before i copied the shit from it. Nobody would think I wrote that and if they did, its their own fault for not reading the link from earlier. Lets try to remember this thread is for bringing out the truth about the assasination, and I informed Mojo why he was wrong.

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[Heavy]

Oh shut up Bunny

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[Se7en]

Please, everyone knows a tiger did it.

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[Se7en]

Please, everyone knows a tiger did it.

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[TheMojoPin]

What is the "NIX" film, and what is the angle/line of sight? When did this film come to light? I cannot make out the image to figure out what that is, and I looked at the website you cited yesterday, and had the same problem. I never heard of this film - please give me a few details, thanks.

No problem, bunny. The Nix film is a seldom seen film that was shot literally across the street from the grassy knoll. The cameraholder, Oliver Nix, had acutally been further down the street and filmed extensive footage of the motorcade as it rounded the corner onto Elm into the plaza. This footage shows up constantly in documentary footage. When the first shot rang out, Nix turned his camera back on and managed to actually film the head shot from a vantage point opposite the grassy knoll. The frames I linked to are the matching frames of the head shot from the Nix film against the Zapruder film. The Nix film shows how Kennedy's head moves forward suddenly before the explosion of the bullet out of the front/side of his skull. Here's a little .gif that shows the film's vantage point at the moment of the head shot.

<img src=http://www.jfklancer.com/photos/DPlaza/Nixani.GIF>

The computer program I mentioned earlier that I own has the Nix film on it and you can examine it frame by frame and zoom in on various parts of the shot. Despite the claims of some, nobody has conclusively found anything indicates that a gunman on the knoll was captured on film by Nix.

I'm going to break down the long-standing false claims made in johnnee's article.

His supposed weapon and all the bullets do not match.

False. The bullet that fell out of Connelly's thigh and was found on his stretcher at Parkland Hospital (Which DOES demonstrate all the damage and markings of a bullet of its type after it has passed through two bodies, see my above link at the top of the page) and the numerous bullet fragments found in the car and on the street from JFK's head shot all conclusively match up to Oswald's gun. There is NOTHING ever proven to legitimately show otherwise. Every fragment recovered and tested came from Oswald's rifle to the exclusion of all other rifles. Anyone who speaks of another shooter is doing so in the complete absence of physical evidence from the bodies. This does NOT prove Oswald used the gun himself, but it does almost certainly prove that his Manlicher Carcano fired at least two bullets at the president. Along these lines, the bullets found in Officer Tippit match the ejected shell casings on the lawn near his body (The long-told "marked by the officer's initials" story of the casings can't even be verified by the officer himself), which in turn are linked to the gun that Oswald was carrying on him at the time of his arrest (Which he attempted to use to kill a SECOND police officer that day as he was arrested...very typical behavior for someone who DIDN'T just kill the president, right?).

The rifle, allegedly the murder weapon, is a cheap, mail order, antiquated bolt-action firearm of a dubious quality.

False. This is spoken as if it automatically "proves" something, which it does not. The gun was indeed cheap, mail order and NOT the most modern of weapons, though it was hardly "antiquated" and it was well-maintained enough to be perfectly serviceable. The vague designation of "dubious" means nothing. The gun was in working order and usuable. It simply wasn't in perfect working order. Numerous experts at the service of the Warren Commission and the House Assassinations Comittee were indeed able to hit numerous shots simulated to the circumstances that Oswald faced...they only couldn't hit ALL of the shots. Neither could Oswald. This never an issue of contention. He is accused of hitting two out of three shots in approximately eight seconds at a slow-moving target no more than 25 yards away at any given time.

It is fired consequentially at impossible speeds

This is blatantly false, and I have NEVER heard of this challenged, and it sm

[Furtherman]

Yet another theory coming out:

White House tight-lipped over Kennedy book flap (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1504&ncid=1504&e=10&u=/afp/20030917/ts_afp/us_bush_kennedy_030917174456)

[reeshy]

GRASSY KNOLL!!!! GRASSY KNOLL!!! GRASSY KNOLL!!! GRASSY KNOLL!!!

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[TheMojoPin]

Grassy knoll? More like grassy kNOT. Oh, gee, look at that. I suck.

And "tight-lipped"? Seems more like "not dignifying with a response."

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[Heavy]

Mojo,

here (http://ourworld-top.cs.com/mikegriffith1/id87.htm)

Thats all you need to know about why Oswald couldnt have done this. He sucked at shooting. He had a lousy rifle.

Some lone-gunman theorists will assert that Oswald's alleged shooting performance was duplicated by several expert marksmen in the CBS rifle test. However, the CBS test did not simulate all of the factors under which Oswald allegedly fired. Furthermore, the four riflemen who managed to score at least two hits out of three shots in less than six seconds failed to do so on their first attempts, yet Oswald would have had ONLY one attempt. And, needless to say, all of these men were experienced, expert riflemen. Seven of the eleven CBS shooters failed to score at least two hits on ANY of their attempts. The best shot in the group, Howard Donahue, took THREE attempts to score at least two hits out of three shots in under six seconds. In addition, the CBS shooters did not use the alleged murder weapon, with its difficult bolt and odd trigger--they used a different Carcano.


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This message was edited by johneewadd on 9-30-03 @ 9:40 PM

[TheMojoPin]

Look, all the mountains evidence of November 22nd show what he did.

I've presented my case.

SUCK ON IT, YOU WHORES.

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[Heavy]

Your story is full of holes. Thats why almost nobody believes it.

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[TheMojoPin]

Right, that's it.

Except history has essentially proven me right, except to double-talking and distorting conspiracy theorists.

My theories don't require double and triple explanations, assumptions, guesses and unproven circumstantial evidence to be correct.

But sure, the notion that the mob was able to control the entire government and dupe a nation and literally THOUSANDS of people involved for 40 years makes PERFECT sense. Good call there, Shticky.

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[Heavy]

Except history has essentially proven me right

No, the history proves he didnt do it alone. The history proves Carlos Marcellas Motive. his connection to Oswlad. His connection to Ruby. His conection to Bobby K. His connection to the Dallas Police Dept. His connection to Hoover and Castro. His talking about it before and after it happened.

The only thing you have to stand on is that youre going along with the govt fed version of the story.

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[TheMojoPin]

Then get out there and stand the FUCK up to THE MAN, DAMMIT!!!

GET US THE TRUTH!!!

This shall NOT stand. Because CLEARLY this coverup is still SO relevant and important with the majority of the people with something important to hide being dead and all. FUCK THEM and their dead asses, dammit! DO IT FOR US, JOHNNEE!!!

And when you're done and realize I'm right, I'll be waiting for you with a hug and a tussle.

Sometimes the answer IS right in front of your face. The truth doesn't have to be "government fed". It's there waiting to be heard by anyone who wants to hear it.

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[Heavy]

Sometimes the answer IS right in front of your face


Heres just a small sample of it:



for almost forty years, there has been a curtain drawn to conceal the true nature of the murder of John F. Kennedy. There has been an immense dissimulation of evidence, and a distortion and concealment of facts that hints at some deep and malicious conspiracy to deprive the people of America of the truth.




It was not until the summer of 1979, almost sixteen years after the event that the American public were told by the House Assassination Committee that President Kennedy "was probably killed as a result of a conspiracy." It stated that although Oswald may have shot at the president, he was part of a bigger picture; one that could have included Carlos Marcello and Santo Trafficante Jr. They had, the committee found, "the motive, means and opportunity to assassinate President Kennedy." The chief counsel of the committee, Professor Robert Blakey (the man who conceived the RICO section of the 1970 Organized Crime Control Act.) believed that there might have been three gunmen.



No reason to quote this:

But the links between Oswald, whose uncle and surrogate father, Dutz Murret, worked as a bookie for the Marcello organization, and whose mother, Marguerite, dated members of the Marcello organization. Ruby, his killer, had definite links to the Dallas mob and Carlos Marcello and Santo Trafficante Jr. These links are plain for all looking to search beyond the mists of obfuscation that lie like some evil swamp gas across the plains of history.
--------------------------------------------------------------

Carlos refused to answer any questions, citing the Fifth Amendment. Over and over again, the 33-year-old Robert Kennedy tried to get answers, but the boss of the mob smirked and scowled his way through the hearing, revealing absolutely nothing. But although Marcello's performance was in keeping with his attitude towards the law, he laid himself open to a judicial ambush that would arise as a direct result of his conduct at the hearing. The young Kennedy, smarting from the embarrassing way Marcello had treated him, never forgot. Two years later, Robert Kennedy was in a position to retaliate.
____________________________________________


On April 4, 1961, Carlos paid his a visit to the office of the Immigration Service in New Orleans. He was required to do this three times a month as a registered alien. Before he knew what was happening, he was in handcuffs, being conveyed by motorcade to Moisant International Airport. There, he was bundled onto an aircraft that took off and flew to Guatemala City, 1200 miles away. .
___________________________________


"Livarsi `na pietra di la scarpa!" he shouted. Translated from Sicilian it meant: "Take the stone out of my shoe!" He looked at Becker and said, "Don't worry about that sonofabitch Bobby, he's gonna be taken care of!"

"But you can't go after Bobby," Becker said. "Look at the trouble that will bring down."

"No, not that," yelled Carlos. "In Sicily they say if you want to kill a dog you don't cut off the tail. You go for the head." The meaning, to Becker, was very clear, but then Carlos elaborated by stating that he planned to have President Kennedy murdered, using someone not in any way connected to him or his organization.

_________________________________________


At some stage in their conversation, Trafficante belittled Robert Kennedy for his war against Hoffa and made mention of the fact that he and his brother, the President were due some serious trouble. Aleman supported President Kennedy's actions and thought he would probably be re-elected. Trafficante, his face serious, leaned close to Aleman and said, "You don't understand me, Jose. Kennedy's not going to make it to the election. He is going to be hit."

Unknown to Trafficante, Jose Aleman was an informant for the FBI. He claims he reported this conversation to two agents -- George Davis and Paul Scranton -- but they or the ag

[TheMojoPin]

They're not "facts". Understand this. This entire THEORY, just like all other conspiracy theories is just that...a THEORY. A guess. An assumption. The events, people and evidence have to be bent and twisted to fit AWAY from the actual chain of events. These theories present their GUESSES as facts, despite the fact they prove aboslutely NOTHING. "This money COULD have come from...this MAY link the two...POSSIBLY showing a connection..." And these THEORIES take a life as proven "fact!" Here's a little taste...

But the links between Oswald, whose uncle and surrogate father, Dutz Murret, worked as a bookie for the Marcello organization, and whose mother, Marguerite, dated members of the Marcello organization. Ruby, his killer, had definite links to the Dallas mob and Carlos Marcello and Santo Trafficante Jr. These links are plain for all looking to search beyond the mists of obfuscation that lie like some evil swamp gas across the plains of history.

Sure sounds scary and sinister, doesn't it? I ate this up like candy for the better part of a decade, unti I realized that wishing for something to be true doesn't make it so. Note how vague these damning assertions are. And the fact NONE of them actually link Marcello to Oswald himself. That's ultimately the key. The common link among conspiracy theorists is that they can't pin ANY of their theories directly on Oswald...because he acted alone, and the abundance of evidence clearly proves that. So they end up having to deem as being an unwitting part of cover-up or as a "patsy" because there's no other way to fit him into their grand web of schemes. They're so quick to exonerate him of seemingly EVERYTHING he actually did (Killing JFK, Tippit, trying to shoot Edwin Walker, making up stories of "two Oswalds", etc.) that they have to present eveidence AROUND him. Oswald's relatives could be knee-deep in mob ties...unless you can actually pin some of it or connect them to Oswald HIMSELF, it's all moot. You get that, right? This is not guilt by association. You've been presenting guesses and inuendos towards Marcello as to how he might be involved, but abolsutely zero about Oswald. You can't just explain him away by inferring a few people AROUND him have "mob ties". I can produce evidence against Oswald himself in the actual act of pulling the trigger against Kennedy six ways to Sunday, and I've begun to do so in this thread already. You've presented quotes that have been investigated and either ultimately weren't said or led to nothing. Of course, to you this is just "proof" that a massive cover-up exists and the "true story" has just been pushed under the covers because you apparently think Marcello has the power to control the majority of the federal government, inculding the CIA, the FBI, the millitary, the Supreme Court, the Senate and the White House itself, not counting all the local authorites involved, and not a SINGLE person was willing to talk...most of all the man who supposedly this assassination was out to stop, Bobby Kennedy. You claimed to me that he covered it up because he was "ashamed"...is that really believable if he was such the scary super-cop that was SO out to get Marcello as you've told me? That this man wouldn't take the murder of his brother as a sign to go after these guys even harder? And then the mob waits to kill him for FIVE YEARS...until he's at the height of the public eye again? As opposed to killing him in the time in between when he's NOT on the evening news every night? If this is how the mob works, they're even bigger idiots than I thought. And there's NO WAY a "conspiracy" this slapshot and shoddy would have held up for 40 years...unless it WASN'T true, in which case there was NOTHING to reveal along these lines.

And just drop Ruby at this point. He does nothing but hurt this case. Ruby had numerous low-level local criminal connections based on the business he was in. But nothing even close to the level that is implied by your posted sources. And all of his interviews and interviews wit

[Heavy]

Note how vague these damning assertions are. And the fact NONE of them actually link Marcello to Oswald himself. That's ultimately the key.


Its vague because its a short version i took from the website, that it also a shortened version of a much bigger picture. I'll be back shortly...

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[Heavy]

and it does connect them. nobody has said that carlos walked up to Oswald and Said "hey, id like you to do this thing for me son"




you apparently think Marcello has the power to control the majority of the federal government, inculding the CIA, the FBI, the millitary, the Supreme Court, the Senate and the White House itself


Did you even read all the ties he and his associates had? He was into everybody




And then the mob waits to kill him for FIVE YEARS...until he's at the height of the public eye again? As opposed to killing him in the time in between when he's NOT on the evening news every night?


After the JFK hing he shut up, he was no threat. 5 years later he's back, and a threat again. easy enough to figure out.



"While Ruby's life is dotted with a handful of arrests (such as for disturbing the peace in 1949, and for allegedly permitting dancing after hours in 1955, a charge that was dismissed), he was not a criminal, nor (contrary to the imaginative claims of some) did he have any significant association with organized crime or its members.

He wasnt a carear criminal. he was an associate. He didnt go out and rough people up or rob banks. He did bribe many cops and did eat lunch at least once a week in the local police station before "forgetting" a package full of money on someones desk. His ties to Civello ( i think thats how its spelled) is not disputted and he even wound up at Mercellos bar several times over the span of many years before this all happened.

Then you give a bunch of quotes from people saying hes insane. Yea that helps your cause!


ANd lets remember this isnt about Ruby. This isnt the Oswald murder conspiracy were talking about. We're talking about Kennedy. I have my beliefs about why Ruby did what he did and i know who he was, but thats really not the point here


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This message was edited by johneewadd on 10-1-03 @ 6:10 PM

[TheMojoPin]

This isnt the Oswald murder conspiracy were talking about.

It's not? It's been the only thing I've been arguing all along! Until you can explain away the proof I have of what Oswald himself did that day, you're stuck. You can link Marcello associates to Oswald's mother and surrogate uncle, but not Oswald himself. So unless you can somehow come up with other shooters, or convincingly prove that Oswald DIDN'T shoot the president, you're stuck with a supposed plan that never happened.

What about this? Let's say Marcello WAS planning to kill JFK. But Oswald beat him to the punch. The two don't HAVE to be linked. All the conspiracy theorists seem to think everything has to be tied together and HAS to be connected. Why? Is it so unbelievable to think two different people wanted to kill the president? While Clinton was in office, someone flew a private plane into the White House, fired a machine gun at the White House and another guy climbed the fence and tried to storm the place with a knife. Two different women tried to kill Gerald Ford. John Hinckley's(sp?) father was having breakfast with George Bush the day he shot Reagan. None of these events are linked. Maybe you don't HAVE to link Marcello and Oswald...because there is NO link, and Oswald simply killed JFK before Marcello had a shot, no pun intended. Then there's nothing to be covered up, since Marcello didn't actually have anything to do with the guy who really killed the president, so that's why nothing has been dramatically "revealed".

And why wouldn't an "insane" Ruby help my case? I posted those quotes because they paint him to be an emotionally volatile and impulsive man...exactly the kind who would do just what he did. I personally don't think he was "insane", that's that one woman's opinion, but I DO think he easily and clearly fits the mental profile of someone who would decide the "right" thing to do would be to kill the man who killed the president.

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[Heavy]

i feel bad for you

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ORACLE NEVER!!!

[TheMojoPin]

Well THAT stopped me.

But is it really so impossible?

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Heavy]

you said he couldnt possibly have the connections. I showed you he did. You said not everybody would shut up, i showed not everybody did, but they were ignored. You said theres no connection between this guy and that guy, i showed you there is. ALl you have in your defense is that the facts ive shown you are not recognized publicly as facts. Thats all you have. A great sniper might hit JFK twice. Oswald was lousy but he still did it. People heard shots from the grass, but it must have been an echo. 47 people said thats where the shots came from that day. JFK was shot in the neck from the side. Oh no thats an exit wound. Right. But the autopsy was rushed, incomplete, and tampered with. Oswald and Ruby had both met with Marcello himself, and both had numerous ties to him, family, friends, associates, buisness partners, bosses etc. Big coincidence eh. Why did the Dallas PD allow Ruby down there to shoot Oswald when the security was "the tightest in Dallas PD history"? Marcello had the means, the motive, the ability and the desire to do this. He said he was gonna do it before it happened. He said he did it after it happened. There are countless other things to prove this was a set up, but I honestly dont remember the details. Carlos financed Oswald when he went to Cuba. There are report right after the shotting of people running down from the grass right after the shotting. I just cant remember the details. But, what difference does it make right? It doesnt. Its not recognized officially so Mojo wont believe it.

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HORDE KING FOREVER!!!
ORACLE NEVER!!!

[TheMojoPin]

No, I DO recognize it...people make mistakes. Witnesses are NOT 100% correct (And that includes those who would support my various arguments). There ARE people who thought there were as many as 6-8 shots that day. Plenty of people who thought shots came from the knoll. But the MAJORITY that had to pick a source testified that there were 3-4 shots at the most and they came from the direction of the Book Depository or elsewhere, but NOT the knoll. Even subtracting common human error and misjudgement from these following numbers still place the wirnesses in my favor.

Here's how the numbers break down (According to the House Select Committee):

20 witnesses reported shots that came from the vicinity of the knoll.

46 reported shots from the area of the Texas School Book Depository.

29 who reported shots from came from a different direction altogether.

And 76 (Almost half of the total) couldn't tell for sure which direction the shots came from.

(Hearings before the Subcommittee on the Assassination of John F. Kennedy of the Select Committee on Assassinations, House of Representatives, Vol. II, p. 122.)

These numbers can lead one to several conclusions, the LEAST of which is that shots were fired from the knoll. The Depository is the single one location that the MOST witnesses identified as being the source of the shots, the location where the evidence against the accused assassin was found. More people indetified a SEPERATE location besides the knoll...why do you discount their testimony, when just as much actual evidence exists to support their testimony as the knoll witnesses...NONE?

MOST importantly, out the 178 witnesses tabulated for the House Select Committee, only FOUR(!) reported shots coming from more than one direction. So unless ALL of the shooting was done by your phantom gunman on the knoll, something doesn't match up.

The witnesses also limit the number of shots to three, which automatically dismisses your notion that the president was shot in the throat from the side(?). If Kennedy was shot in the throat, then you have to account for the bullet that hit him in the back. Since you've eliminated the throat wound as an exit wound, a third bullet has to account for the wounds in Connelly. Then you need a fourth for the fatal head wound to JFK, and THEN you need a FIFTH bullet to account for the ricochet damage to the curb just before the overpass. That's at least five shots fired. Let's see how that stacks up against what the witnesses heard.

An overwhelming majority of witnesses, 80.8% reported hearing ONLY 2 to 3 shots. The next largest group, 10.5%, reports only a total of 1 to 2 shots, while the SMALLEST group of witnesses, a mere 8.7%, report hearing 4 or more shots.

(Hearings before the Subcommittee on the Assassination of John F. Kennedy of the Select Committee on Assassinations, House of Representatives, Vol. II, p. 122.)

Overall only 20.2% of the witnesses reported shots from the knoll, the possibility of which is reduced essentially to NIL by the 91.3% that reported hearing THREE SHOTS OR LESS.

Let's move on to the physical impossibility of a shot from the knoll.

Conspiracy theorists LOVE to point how a tree would have made it "impossible" for Oswald to have fired from the Depository, ignoring that fact that only a few branches would have been visible through the scope and that these most certainly account for Oswald's first missing the car completely. What's ALSO almost universally ignored is how the layout of the knoll would have made a shot to Kennedy's throat from the front ACTUALLY almost impossible. The site has been preserved as a historical landmark, and JFK assassination "expert" was a consultant on the film "JFK" during it's recreation shots in Dealy Plaza in 1991. Here's what he noted as he stood at the fence (Something that has been noted and claimed by nearly EVERY expert and researcher who have been to the scene, but ignored by practically all conspiracy theorists):

[quote]When one first stands behind the picket fence, he/she is str

[Heavy]

Damn you Mojo

I just wanted to let the people know some guy that wrote a book saying LBJ was behind the assasination willl be on MSNBC tonight. The Abrams report I think.

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HORDE KING FOREVER!!!
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[TheMojoPin]

Weird enough coincidence, I'm related to that guy. And his son works with the Bush administration.

His theory is that LBJ's personal lawyer arranged the "hit" because JFK was planning on dropping Johnson from the ticket in '64.

I'm a little suprised there aren't more books and TV specials due out on the topic soon, given that this is the 40th anniversary of the assassination. It was the flood of materials with the 30th anniversary that got me into this mess in the first place.

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[TheMojoPin]

Alright, now THIS is bizarre.

It's a continuous live webcam feed from the "sniper's nest" on the 6th floor of the former Texas School Book Depository. It goes back and forth between Houston St. and the triple underpass, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year.

Dealey Plaza Cam (http://www.earthcam.com/jfk/dealey_nojava.html)

Yikes.

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Heavy]

that is the most entertaining live cam Ive ever seen.

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A proportionate amount of props are equally distributed to my nigga's Fluff, Alexxis, CanOfSoup15, WWFallon and Katylina
HORDE KING FOREVER!!!
ORACLE NEVER!!!

[A.J.]

I was at the The Sixth Floor Museum back in May and I didn't even know that they had the webcam there. The shooter's perch in enclosed in glass to preserve the way it was on 22 NOV 1963. It's very eerie to look out from that window and see the "X" on the pavement where the kill shot was.

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[TheMojoPin]

It says that the camera is in a little box made up to look like the ones Oswald would have had around him in the sniper's nest that day. It's just such a random idea for a webcam...what's going to ever be different?

And AJ, can you catually go IN the Depository? The site I was looking at almost made it look like it had made a museum OUTSIDE of the building...in a building you can rent out for personal events?

You got brain on my chocolate! You got chocolate on my brain! (http://www.jfk.org/facilities.htm)

Dallas is a WEIRD place.

It seems like it would be weird driving down Elm Street knowing what happened...very strange...

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[A.J.]

It says that the camera is in a little box made up to look like the ones Oswald would have had around him in the sniper's nest that day. It's just such a random idea for a webcam...what's going to ever be different?

Ok, that's in the glass enclosure I mentioned before.

And AJ, can you catually go IN the Depository? The site I was looking at almost made it look like it had made a museum OUTSIDE of the building...in a building you can rent out for personal events?

Yes. You enter on the ground floor (obviously) and after paying admission and going through the metal detector, you enter a freight elevator that takes you to the 6th floor. Once you get out, there's a chronological exhibit of the JFK years leading up to the Dallas visit. The "highlight" is the glass enclosed shooter's perch. There are lots of various artifacts from that day as well as other local memorabilia.

The 7th floor is indeed an art exhibit (I saw the Warhol and Jackie exhibit when I was there) and they host discussion groups, etc.

Outside of but attached to the Depository is a gift shop -- which seemed very ghoulish and tacky to me. The worst was all the conspiracy theorists who hang out in Dealey Plaza in the grassy knoll area showing their videos and hawking their books, etc.

Dealey Plaza is a lot smaller than it looks on TV/film.

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[TheMojoPin]

I actually wanted to bring up something I believe mdr pointed out several times, that Oswald's rifle was somehow "damaged" or "defective".

The scope WAS damaged, but this is only proven with the shooters who tested the rifle AFTER the assasiantion. They simply used the ridle as it was found. The damage to the rifle scope caused shots to land consistently high and to the right by a few inches.

What is usually not emphasized by conspiracy buffs is that the damage most likely occured when Oswald stashed the rifle, which was found roughly jammed into a stack of boxes.

It's unlikely that the rifle scope was damaged before the shooting as that Oswald logged hours shooting at local ranges, and it would be near impossible for him not to have noticed the consistent inaccuracy caused by the scope. Or if he did, he could have learned to compensate for the error, though this is highly unlikely.

The key here is the apparent lack of faith the conspiracy buffs have in their own conspiracies. Typically they are willing to give the conspirators the power to control all levels of American government, millitary and law enforcement and the ability to wage a massive conspiracy for 40 years, yet they leave a rifle with a faulty scope as one of the key pieces of "false" evidence? Seeing as this item would be the crux of the evidence against their suppsoed "patsy" Oswald, wouldn't it seem HIGHLY unlikely they'd be so careless as to damage it, thusly instantly casting doubt and attention towards their conspiracy?

Or the idea that Ruby was used to "silence" Oswald. Nevermind Oswald's departure was approx. 15 minutes later than it's scheduled time because Oswald requested a change of clothes, as evidenced by the delayed news reports. Seemingly Ruby killing Oswald to keep what he knows quiet would be important, yet Ruby only entered the building just more than a minute before Oswald was led out. Oswald's "hush-man" is late for what must be one of THE most important parts of the conspiracy? Sure, you could say the authorities who were "in on it" knew Ruby was late and delayed Oswald's departure, but it was OSWALD himself who caused the delay. Oswald stalled for time...to ensure that he was killed?

It's like the long-supported buff theory that someone planted the supposedly-but-not-really-pristine "magic bullet" on Connelly's stretcher at Parkland Hospital. Nevermind that this could only have happened while Connelly and JFK were in surgery, BEFORE all possible bullet and bullet fragments could be pulled from their bodies, the car, and the crime scene. If the conspirators were attempting to frame Oswald as having fired three shots (Based on the recorded evidence found at the Depository), how could they know at that point how many bullets and bullet fragments would be found? If enough bullet material had been found for three bullets, and then this FOURTH bullet shows up on a stretcher, it would only succeed in DESTROYING the idea of Oswald as the lone gunman. These conspirators either had to be the luckiest guessers in the world, telepathic or clarivoyant.

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[TheMojoPin]

Maaaaan, don't let this wonderful thread die...make it LIVE!

I love debating this stuff. I can't believe wadd was the only one here willing to try and go the distance...doesn't anyone else have any ideas? Prove me wrong! Mix it up, dammit...

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[high fly]

Did Oswald also take the time to tighten up the rifle sling before hauling ass?


" and they ask me why I drink"

[TheMojoPin]

I...don't know?

I'm not getting something here, right?

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Furtherman]

BUMP!

Well this should be interesting... From IMDB.com:

ABC Uses Computers for Kennedy Assassination Special

ABC News has employed state-of-the-art computer technology to reconstruct the assassination of President John F. Kennedy 40 years ago. The technology, frequently used in criminal investigations nowadays but unknown only a few years ago, employs maps, blueprints, physical measurements, more than 500 photos, films, and autopsy reports to provide the visual images that are scheduled to be included in a two-hour special, narrated by Peter Jennings, that the network plans to air on Nov. 20. Executive producer Tom Yellin said Monday that the CGI reconstruction "leaves no room for doubt" that Lee Harvey Oswald was the lone gunman responsible for the killing.


No room for doubt eh? Hmmmm....




<IMG SRC="http://www.photobucket.com/albums/1003/Furtherman/845818b1.jpg">

[GaryWyze]

[color=purple]Okay, inspired by this thread, I too have become a student of the Kennedy assasination.

I've looked at all the evidence. MoJo makes some excellent points. As does Wadd. Yet my final conclusion is that they're both wrong.

Oswald was not the killer. But neither were any of the other usual suspects.

I take you back in time to the fighting city of Philadelphia, circa 1960, where a very young Ron Bennington is chartering the course of his soon to be realized destiny in radio.

He knew that extreme talk as the wave of the future. The beatnik culture of the time lent perfect support to this theory. He figured that a gig in NYC around the turn of the century sounded about right.

But he also knew that with an extreme talk format, came extreme risk. A back up plan was needed. A North-Eastern city, close enough to New York so that they could come down for the occasional remote, yet far enough away that tthey could escape any bad press associated with whatever it was that caused the NY's station demise.

Washington, D.C. pefectly fit the bill. But how, in the early 1960s, could one ensure that a station would still be carrying the same call letters some 40 years later.

It would have to be something historic, he thought. WMLK? WFDR? WLBJ? No, the answer was obvious... WJFK. Now how to make it happen.

And the rest, as they say, is history. I thank you for your time.

<center>http://czm.racknine.net/images/krustysig.jpg

Much thanks to CZM for the killer, yet not currently working, sig pic

[TheMojoPin]

No room for doubt eh? Hmmmm....

Not really. That's why the conspiracy community has grown more and more quiet and "cult-ish". Time leads to advances in forensic investigation technology, and pretty much each signifcant breakthrough points to Oswald being the shooter. So unless the conspirators were SO good they were able to create a conspiracy that would "roll with the punches" of advancing technology 40 years later, there's little left to believe a conpsiracy of anyone other than Lee Harvey Oswald killed JFK.

BUT...if anyone could have pulled it off, it would have been Ron. He knows people who KNOW people...who know things...y'know?

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Furtherman]

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/images/moormanx.jpg

RON?

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[TheMojoPin]

Well, I was looking forward to all the JFF-related programming on the History Channel this week, but so far they're REALLY letting me down by mostly only showing "new" episodes of the British-produced "The Men Who Killed Kennedy".

I first saw the initial 5 episodes of this series 10 years ago during the 30th anniversary of the assassination, and it, along with the film "JFK" were probably the main sources that made me a conspiracy nut for the better part of the last decade. Since then, forensic technology and literally millions of released documents and pieces of evidence have proven most of the "shocking" revelations in this series to be laughably wrong, yet the History Channel seems to be showing NEWER episodes.

It's a sloppy series that, as with most conspiracy theorists, ONLY uses information that backs its points, and ignores anything that may go against it. It repeats the same misinformation and "urban legends" that have persisted amongst the conspiracy community that can be and have been debunked by readily available sources and evidence. In short, these people ONLY hear what they want to believe, and they ONLY listen to people that back their ideas, or can be manipulated or edited to suit their point. It's sloppy, despicable and serves only to cheapen what was ultimately one of the most traumatic and sad events in our nation's history.

That most laughable is an entire episode that focuses on a woman who claims to have been Lee Harvey Oswald's mistress, and the two of them were part of a project that was developing cancer as a bioweapon to kill Castro. This woman proceeds, for a full hour, to ONLY relate conspiracy "information" that's readily available in any number of books and websites and only inserts herself into this "history".

She reveals NOTHING new that hadn't been supposedly "revealed" already, yet she's presented as some kind of proof that LHO not only didn't kill JFK, but supposedly "valiantly" sacrificed himself in an attempt to STOP the situation. Nevermind her description of him (Kind, loving, gentles, noble, ultimately a good person) conflicts with the hundreds of other people throughout his entire life that described him as lonely, often unemotional (Though quick to anger), quiet, isolated and violent. Nevermind the special COMPLETELY ignores that Oswald tried to kill a retired army general shortly before the assassination. Or that he shot and killed a policeman just afterwards. AND tried to shoot and kill the cops that arrested him after that. Yeah, that's a "hero" for you. Mindless twattle.

Just remember...when you watch specials like this you're only getting a minute fraction of all the evidence and information available, and even amongst THAT tiny portion they're only presenting what they want you to know and they're ignoring the titanic mountain of evidence that proves everything to the contrary.

DESPICABLE.

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 11-18-03 @ 8:33 PM

[Heavy]

Still brainwashed eh?

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ORACLE NEVER!!!

[TheMojoPin]

Keep wasting your time.

Hey, I was in Dealy Plaza the day Kennedy was killed!

Whoops, guess I "know too much" now!

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Heavy]

SAD

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[sr71blackbird]

I thought you two settled this already? Whats so hard to believe that LHO got off those shots? It was the "luckiest" few shots in the world, thats all there is to it.

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[Heavy]

He had a better chance of hitting him in the head with his SEED

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[TheMojoPin]

It was the "luckiest" few shots in the world, thats all there is to it.

No, they weren't.

Johnee, I schooled you up and down and all around. Give it up.

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[high fly]

Hey MOJO, didn't Posner have to recant part of his book?
Seems to me he did.

" and they ask me why I drink"

[TheMojoPin]

Not that I know of. I just tried doing a search for something like that, and found just a number of conspiracy and "free media" sites, of course, bashing the book and DEMANDING retractions and the like. "Case Closed" was actually just re-released a couple months ago with ADDITIONAL material. There were some source and information and clarifications, and he went into more detail as to some of his reasearch and findings, but that's about all I can find.

There's a huge heap of sites out there attacking Posner, which I think is very telling. Posner and his kind have only attacked the case itself, whereas his opponents are reduced to again and again attacking HIM.

This being said, I don't view Posner being anywhere near 100% correct on all of his points, nor do I think he is some untouchable figure. I have no doubt he has mistakes in the book. It simply serves as the best singular public focal point for what I've come to believe, and so I use it and reccomend it as such.

I have no doubt there are errors in his book. Most of its type end up having them. That being said, it's by far the most lucid, logical and ultimately proveable of the assassination texts, and demonstrates that the event was actually far more predictable and mundane than conspiracy theorists ever want to attempt to believe or understand. And it only serves as the most public tip of a growing iceberg of thought that acknowledges that Oswald did indeed act alone, as that time, invesitgations, money and technology have not even come close to proving anything to the contrary.

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 11-19-03 @ 3:23 PM

[Heavy]

Give it up Mo. Everytime a book comes out proving you wrong you discount it. Open your eyes.


http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:essYG_Kd9ioC:www.ag.ohio-state.edu/~ansci/facilities/images/sheep.jpg

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[high fly]

MOJO, sorry I couldn't be more specific. My recollection is he recanted some details and they were covered in a Washington Post editorial published shortly (perhaps a few months) after the book came out. For some reason I'm thinking it was on a Saturday.
Unfortunately, I can't recall what the issue was.

" and they ask me why I drink"

[TheMojoPin]

Hey, if he recanted, he recanted. I won't try and explain it away. As far as I can tell the only changes to any later editions was additional information. It wouldn't suprise me if something was pulled, and I'd be curious to find out what. Let me know if you track down the article...good luck finding it, though. The book came out 10 years ago.

Everytime a book comes out proving you wrong you discount it

Johnee, go sit in the corner. Good choice of words, because I DO discount them after I prove them wrong. I'm a whore for this topic, and read a new book on the subject practically a few times a year. "Case Closed" is the only one where the info has largely held up over time and can actually be proved. It took me ten years to come down out of fantasyland and realize that. Thankfully I didn't have to wait until I was as old and useless as you to come to that conclusion, stinkfist.

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 11-19-03 @ 4:05 PM

[Bill From Yorktown]

Unsolved History (or something like that) on tonight where the'll scientifically analyze the case.

<IMG SRC="http://hometown.aol.com/billb914/sigpic.gif">

[Ndugu]

I think unsolved history already did a kennedy one, but i believe this one is brand new.

Dear Ndugu

[TheMojoPin]

Is that the old Leonard Nimoy show?

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[A.J.]

"In Search Of..."

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[Ndugu]

they sometimes have in search of on history channel, its Leonard Nimoy talking behind a desk accompanied by extremely bad reanactments.

Dear Ndugu

This message was edited by Ndugu on 11-19-03 @ 4:29 PM

[TheMojoPin]

I just remember that when I was a little kid the creepy synth music they would play freaked me out.

But what's this OTHER show that's doing an analysis of the assassination? I wanna check it out...

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[furie]

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/images/moormanx.jpg

this just seems to me that someone making too much of a shapeless black mass on an old film. They drew in the shape of a man, and ignored the rest of the same black mass.

freaks.


<img src="http://tseery.homestead.com/files/bod6.gif" height=100 width=300>

[Heavy]

Anyone got a time, channel for this thing tonight?

And Mo, dont think i wont disconut everything in that last long post you had awhile ago, I just lost the interest at the time.

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HORDE KING FOREVER!!!
ORACLE NEVER!!!

[Ndugu]

Its on the discovery channel they are playing their first jfk episode at 8 and the new one at 9, the show is called unsolved history, it is a good show.

Dear Ndugu

[Bill From Yorktown]

Unsolved Hitory is a good show - more scientific than "in search of" - for example they analyzed the Boston Masacre by using street maps, drawings from the time, and a reenactment in the street and in a sound studio (to see if the men could have heard the Captain telling them to fire)

The Kennedy one should be good.

<IMG SRC="http://hometown.aol.com/billb914/sigpic.gif">

[Heavy]

Thank you sir.

If you can turn on Mike and The Maddog, you can hear them discussing the JFK deal. No sports.

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[TheMojoPin]

Sounds like good stuff, boys. Thanks for the heads up. Looks good already.

The first hour demonstrates one of the sharpest genuine criticisms of the Warren Commission; that they did NOT track down all of the hundreds of photos and motion picture cameras in use that day in Dealy Plaza. Based on recovered footage, there was at least four other motion picture cameras in use during the shootings, and perhaps as many as three dozen still photo cameras taking pictures during that time, whose users were never identified, their footage never found and viewed, and whose whereabouts and identities are still unknown today. In theory, there is perhaps 360 degrees of footage of the killing in existence, perhaps already lost or to be lost forever.

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 11-19-03 @ 8:12 PM

[sr71blackbird]

In that image that is suppose to show an obscure figure behind that wall, how is it that the tree thats visible to the left of that figure, one wall away and approx. to its left, is clear as a bell? Look at the trunk. Clearly the "figure" is a phantom shape created in the minds of people who are looking for things that arent apparent and resort to trying to bring out of the reflections of leaves a face of one, or two people. Its been said here that its easily possible for someone to cycle that rifle and get off those rounds within the time indicated. Only two bullets hit their target, the other was close to target. Its really not that hard to believe when you look at how its possible. Its when you choose to believe something other than the facts that the scenarios of all thats possible become fodder for speculation and conspiracy.

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[TheMojoPin]

Exactly. The mind sees and assumes what it wants to. The assassination of the president is HUGE. It simply doesn't compute that one little loser could have done it all by himself. Stacking the two personalities next to each other just doesn't match. And here, Kennedy's image and identity has only grown more and more massive over the decades, making a conspiracy not seem plausible, but seemingly NECESSARY.

The Discovery Channel special just made the key point that switched me to the "lone nut" side...there's not a single, not a ONE, piece of actual physical evidence that links ANYONE ELSE IN THE ENTIRE world to the actual shooting of the president besides Lee Harvey Oswald. When you're a conspiracy theorist, as I was avidly, you then just jump to the most exciting conclusion, that the conspirators are SO "high up" and powerful that they altered ALL of the evidence, all of the photos, the autopsy, the last 10 years of Oswald's life, the witnesses...EVERYTHING. In a Hollywood sense, it's the "sexiest" plot twist. It's like dominos...you start off one denial you keep painting yourself into a corner so you have to knock down another...and another...and another...until you're so far from what actually happened you're just making things up, whether intentionally or not.

Look at it this way...seemingly the only people able to create a conspiracy this massive, well-planned and able to survive for 40 years would be the standing US government around Kennedy. Yet not a single bit of evidence exists to prove this. Look to Watergate and Iran-Contra...two government conspiracies enacted by standing governments, these even including the very highest members of our government, and they both came crashing down while the parties involved were still in office and at the height of their political power and influence! How in the hell could the Kennedy conspirators not leave a single shred of ANYTHING in their conspiracy unless there WASN'T A MASSIVE GOVERNMENT CONSPIRACY? NOTHING exists like that in history before or since. Not even close. And even if it did, let's look at the most popular supposed motives.

The CIA did it. The most popular notion is that the CIA, or rogue elements within, killed Kenendy because they were denied Cuba and Kennedy was planning on "breaking apart the Agency", effectively destroying their ability to wage covert war around the world.

Actual result: the CIA's covert capabilities (Namely assassination and government manipulation) are legally hindered, banned and forbiden BECAUSE of the incident of the Kennedy assassination. Bush had to actually rescind a number of these legalities to free up the Agency to go to work after 9/11, nearly 40 years after the fact. Not only that, Castro remains in power and no action is ever taken against Cuba again. What was gained by Kennedy's death? NOTHING. They lost the powers that they were supposedly protecting by killing Kennedy after the assassination.

The Mafia did it. The mob helped steal the election for Kennedy in Illinois and West Virginia and expected a "break" in increasing federal investigations. Instead, Kennedy makes his brother Bobby attorney general, who goes after the Mafia even tougher than before. The Mafia then kills Kennedy in revenge and to get Bobby off their backs.

The actual result: federal and state investigation and prosecution of the Mafia continues, perhaps even MORE intense than before. 20-25 years later, the Mafia is effectively a shell of its former self, splintered and a fraction of its former power, and the weakest it's ever been in the entire century. If this organization is so powerful and influential to pull off the assassination, why are they not able to prevent their near-destruction over the next two decades, AND nothing is revealed as they are dismantled that indicates they pulled it off in the first place? This ties in with the notion that the FBI "hushed up" the entire thing after the fact, possibly because of mob blackmail and control of Hoover. Nevermind that public FBI blunders and mistakes have

[TheMojoPin]

Here's something I just thought of that I've never heard anything about...what happened to Oswald's daughters? He had two, and one would only be 40 and the other in her early 40's You never hear anything about them...

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[Heavy]

They have obviously been kept under wraps by the govt. All I need to say is that im pissed. From 8-9 i watched some bullshit on the history channel about people that knew oswald, even though someone said discovery channel in here. I did catch the 9-10 show though. I'm too fucking tired to even read the posts since my last one, but hopefully that opened your eyes to the truth finally. I'll check out your apologies in the morning.

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HORDE KING FOREVER!!!
ORACLE NEVER!!!

[A.J.]

Based on recovered footage, there was at least four other motion picture cameras in use during the shootings, and perhaps as many as three dozen still photo cameras taking pictures during that time, whose users were never identified, their footage never found and viewed, and whose whereabouts and identities are still unknown today.

I wish I could remember the name of the A&E/History Channel/Discovery Channel show I saw that reconstructed the motorcade route using the "typical" footage with the never-before-seen movies and stills. It was fascinating seeing things from different angles and perspectives. I remember that one of the cameras was in the wrong setting for outdoors and had it been correctly set, it would have provided a detailed snapshot of the Grassy Knoll.

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[TheMojoPin]

It was the show everyone was talking about on the Discovery Channel last night, "Unsolved History". The second hour details a team of investigators doing various tests that prove that essentially all of the "controversial" parts of Oswald shooting JFK are easily possible and proveable.

You're actually talking about two things..the first is the polaroid photo taken at the moment of the head shot by Mary Moorman...

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/moorman.jpg

...where the shutter was used incorrectly, and caused the focus on the picture to be off and unfortunately shot the grassy knoll in heavy shadow. Her photo is the one that conspiracy buffs use to say "proves" a second shooter, mostly based on the work of one Jack White, you "discovered" the supposed "Badgeman" image that's been discussed earlier in the thread. "Badgeman" is actually most likely a Coke bottle left on the wall by a young black couple eating their lunch. Photos of the wall within a minute of the shooting actually show the bottle in that exact spot. "Badgeman's" supposed image also actually appears clearer than the wall that's in front of him, which is 100% photographically impossible. His angle is also actually one that he wouldn't be able to see Kennedy over the white wall he's supposedly using for cover. Other than "Badgeman", nobody has been able to detect any evidence of any kind of shooter on the Knoll at that moment.

The other thing you're bringing up is the film shot by Orville Nix, which was further back than Moorman, but pretty much same angle, and also caught the final head shot. Nix was the one, as you said, that used an indoor film stock as opposed to an outdoor one, and didn't adjust the filter accordingly. As such, the Knoll is covered by deep, dark shadows that can't be seen through. Beyond this, however, Nix's films serves two incredibly important points. First, more clearly than Zapruder's film, it demonstrates on a frame-by-frame analysis that Kennedy's head violently and suddenly moved FORWARD before the explosion and his movement backwards. Secondly, it clearly shows the matter from Kennedy's head exploding blasts FORWARD as Kennedy moves back, which is indicative of a bullet from the rear and exiting from the front/side.

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 11-20-03 @ 11:31 AM

[A.J.]

Was it? I had seen this months ago. One of the best shows I ever seen on the subject.

Mojo, do you remember what was the significance of the pictures with the guy in front of the Book Depository?

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[TheMojoPin]

Yeah, I think it first came out back in February. I went ahead and taped both hours when they replayed later last night, I was so impressed.

Which guy? Do you mean people actually standing in front of the bullding or people taking pictures in front of the building?

You might be talking about Billy Lovelady, a Depository employee watching the motorcade from the building's doorway. A photo was taking of him and his co-workers there and conspiracy buffs claim it was actually Oswald, not Lovelady, in the doorway. Nevermind all of Depository employees interviewed and/or shown the photo identified Lovelady, which inevitably leads to the faithful buff fallback, that "everyone is covering it up." Here's a photo composite.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/images/lovelady.jpg

And here's a link to some info.

Was Oswald in the Doorway of the Depository at the time of the JFK Assassination? (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu//oswald_doorway.htm)

The OTHER person supposedly "in front" of the building was an EXTREME right wing, racist, independently wealthy Georgian, Joseph Milteer, who is often known as the "Miami prophet" since a tape was made of him discussing with associates the killing of Kennedy with a rifle from an office building, BEFORE the assassination. Supporters of this theory claim that he was in Dealy Plaza that day.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/images/milteer2.jpg

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/images/milteer_dp.jpg

In short, key details show Milteer's talk had NOTHING to do with what happened in Dallas and was NOT in Dealy Plaza. See this link for more info.

Miami Prophet, or Quitman Crackpot? (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu//milteer.htm)

(Refresh links if they seem to not be working. The site is a bit choppy these days due to high traffic.)

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 11-20-03 @ 11:59 AM

[high fly]

The mafia did it...actual result




The CIA did it...actual result


2 examples of faulty logic. If one does something, but doesn't get the expected results, it doesn't mean you didn't do it.
The persecution of the mafia came about more from the uproar following the Congressional hearings that featured the testimony of Joe Valachi, among others, rather than the appointment of Bobby.

The curtailment of the CIA came not as a result of the JFK assassination inqueries of the Warren Commission, or the one in the 70s, but as a result of the investigation by the Church Committee.

The mafia and CIA may well not have been involved as organizations, but that doesn't mean that someone who happened to be a member of either could have been involved.

To put forth the argument that absence of evidence is evidence of absence is also faulty logic.

" and they ask me why I drink"

[TheMojoPin]

To put forth the argument that absence of evidence is evidence of absence is also faulty logic.

I still maintain the analysis for both because of the "credit" both of the organizations get from conspiracy buffs for the capabilities in the many, MANY supposed conspiracies. To listen to them, these organizations, or rogue elements within them, seemingly have superhuman powers when it comes to controlling at LEAST thousands of people, countless pieces of evidence, the ENTIRE US government and media, and the development of forensic technology and research over the course of 40 years. They have the ability to do ALL of this...but are at the same time so shortsighted that their plans and assumed goals exploded in their faces immediately afterwards?

You bring up the mob being brought down by people other than Bobby...then why risk killing Kennedy in the first place? Surely exposure of such an act would destroy them. And why kill one president and risk that if someone else is going to come along and try to tear you down as well? Why not kill THEM? As I said with the anti-Castro factions, the mob seemingly should have been killing presidents and high-up government officials left and right, since Kennedy's death ultimately changed little and they could apparently pull it off...right?

The CIA was officially banned from assassination after JFK's killing. Same goes for them as I said with the mob above...if future government officials and presidents held them in check and blocked their power and influence as Kennedy did, why didn't they kill THEM and cover it up? Kennedy's death ultimately changes nothing.

The "rogue factions" idea seems logical...until you realize that this means peple who have even less resources than if the entire organization was involved, CIA, FBI, Mafia or otherwise. Is it all too likely a few individuals would have the power to pull off something this massive?

And your quote above is flawed. By that logic, we should ALL be on trial or suspect since there's no evidence we committed every crime ever committed ever. I'm viewing this case from a the view of a criminal investigation, where evidence is THE key. If there were an actual conspiracy that manipulated, distorted or destroyed ALL the evidence, our justice system would be destroyed, plain and simple. The basis of criminal prosecution and forensic evidence would be erradicated. Nobody could be charged with any crime at any time because any and all evidence would be moot. How plausible and possible is something THIS huge and effective? Not very.

There's a key distinction here...it's perfectly plausible that more than one person would want to and/or try to kill Kennedy. The logic only takes a jump off when the "domino effect" takes place and you have to add person after person, organization after organization to the conspiracy, until literally thousands of people are involved. Statistically speaking, the more people involved, the more likely something is going to be revealed. Yet this massive conspiracy (WHICHEVER one you want) has revealed NOTHING. Why are so many seemingly logical people then so quick to assume that this is only evidence of the conspiracy's power, as opposed to more obvious and logical notion that there is simply NO CONSPIRACY?

I love this thread like a child. Keep it going!

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 11-20-03 @ 12:31 PM

[high fly]

Generally speaking, I agree with you as far as a massive conspiracy being kept hidden.
As an exception, just for snicks, I'd point to the existence of ULTRA--- the codebreaking in WWII. Although hundreds of people worked on it, it was kept secret till the early 70s with the publication of the book, The Ultra Secret. After that, it took several more years for it to be fully exposed, and that was all done legally, in contrast to murder....

Also my quote, "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence is not only logical, it is a tautology, y'know, p implies q stuff. (It's also a delightful figure of speach, a turning back, but I forget which one)

(edit) By the way, did Posner deal with the assassin, the French guy supposedly in the CIA ZR RIFLE program that was supposedly rushed out of Dallas after the assassination?

As for me, I think Oswald was what he said he was-- "a patsy". I think there was at least one other person involved.
I do not believe that Oswald alone would have fired when he did.
I do not believe that Oswald could have gotten off all the shots that hit Kennedy, Connolly, the car, the grass, and the curb.

I don't know who else was involved nor can I prove that anyone else was involved.

By the same token, I am not sold on some massive conspiracy with a Blofeld character running things either.



" and they ask me why I drink"

This message was edited by high fly on 11-20-03 @ 1:18 PM

[TheMojoPin]

No he didn't.

But with most of the conspiracy community itself even discounting the supposed "French Connection", this doesn't surpise me.

Posner's book isn't structered as you may think. It's more of a biography of Oswald. Posner only addresses the most notorious and widely supported of the conspiracy theories. It's not structered as most books on the assassination are, semeingly from random point to point. His is very linear, "this happened, then this, then this, and then this." He doesn't have to go backwards and explain the "why" afterwards because the proof is in the pudding, so to speak.

Good point with ULTRA. Also makes me think of the CIA's own MK ULTRA program, which was an attempt at what essentially amounted to mind control that was exposed some time back. The CIA's history is riddled with such exposures in some form or another. Why would their involvement in the assassination be exempt from this kind of investigation and revelation?



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[high fly]

oops, I just edited while MOJO was replying.

I'll have to read Posner's book. Damn, I've got so much to read now anyway...

I read you loud and clear on CIA or mafia involvement as organizations, but I cannot discount an individual, an Edwin Wilson or G.Gordon Liddy--type acting on their own outside the agency.
I also freely admit that this would be just guesswork.

I'd also point out, to support MOJOs view, that even when the CIA COULD assassinate someone, they were woefully inadequate.I don't think they ever pulled off even one .



" and they ask me why I drink"

This message was edited by high fly on 11-20-03 @ 1:25 PM

[TheMojoPin]

Oh, they pulled off the act itself. They were usually just busted on it within a few years.

Posner's book is a great read even for people who don't support its findings. I enjoy a good conspiracy read if it's well-written, and Posner's is at the top of the heap in terms of quality.

And I fully understand what you're saying about someone like Hunt or Liddy or other "rogue agents". There may indeed have been people who were planning to do such a thing. Kennedy had plenty of enemies (Which hasn't helped things in trying to sort this out over the years), so why would it be impossible to think that maybe, as wadd as tried to say, that Carlos Marcello indeed wanted to and even planned to kill Kennedy, byt Oswald simply beat him to the punch? The conspiracy buffs think everything HAS to be connected...why?

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 11-20-03 @ 1:28 PM

[TheMojoPin]

THE CIA HAS EDITED MY DOUBLE-POST! AVENGE ME!!!

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 11-20-03 @ 1:29 PM

[high fly]

No, really, I don't think the CIA ever managed to actually kill anyone.

They sure tried, but with Lumumba, for example, while they were trying to smuggle in the poisoned toothpaste, someone else got him.

We know about the bumbling attempts on Castro's life....

If anyone can cite even one successful CIA assassination by a CIA officer, I'd like to hear it.

And wasn't Marcello a character in David Lynch's Wild At Heart?




(edit) It wasn't the CIA that got your double post, it was the Bilderburgers....



" and they ask me why I drink"

This message was edited by high fly on 11-20-03 @ 2:09 PM

[TheMojoPin]

I thought you just meant ORCHESTRATED by the CIA. They were assassinating people left and right THAT way for most of the 50's.

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[high fly]

Yeah, they were teaming up with the Knights of Malta.

" and they ask me why I drink"

[TheMojoPin]

No way.

This goes all the way up to the Knights of Columbus.

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[high fly]

Oh shit.
We're in big trouble now.

They've got them nehru jacket-wearing fiends in the supersecret hideout inside the volcano with the ray guns and stuff.
And they're extra polite when they torture you.

" and they ask me why I drink"

[Se7en]

http://members.rogers.com/leslie4550/fallout.jpg

They just want.....information.

And by hook or by crook, they'll get it.

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This message was edited by Se7en on 11-20-03 @ 9:00 PM

[Alice S. Fuzzybutt]

I've been watching the Peter Jennings Special tonight about the Kennedy assassination.

This is what I've learned:

* US journalists in Moscow in the late 50s-early 60s grow creepy moustaches.

*Ex-strippers get old and fat in 40 years.

*Oswald was smarter than me. He was a cracker and he was fluent in Russian. Both my parents were Russian and I still struggled with the language.

*Oh yeah! Oswald worked alone.

*Jack Ruby was Lee Harvey Oswald's older, fatter doppleganger.

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[TheMojoPin]

He was a cracker and he was fluent in Russian. Both my parents were Russian and I still struggled with the language.

Don't feel bad. Oswald WASN'T fluent. This is just yet another in a long line of misconceptions and urban legends. Yes, Oswald spoke Russian much better than the average American. But his skills were consistent with someone self-taught and taking advantage of basic millitary language courses. While in Russia he had to rely on his government "tour guide"/minder or friends for most "real" conversations. The greatest source of the idea that Oswald was fluent or "expert" in the language is that his wife first thought he was Russian when they first met based on how he spoke. In actuality, she thought he was possibly from the eastern regions of the USSR based on his ACCENT. She has stated several times his Russian itself wasn't very good, but his accent sounded Eurasian as opposed to American.

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[Heavy]

History channel:
The men that killed Kennedy:

8-9 Lyndon johnson behind the assasination

9-10 Medical evidence tampered with to support lone gunman thoery

10-11 Some chick Lee Harvey banged talks about him
These 3 repeated at 12, 1 and 2 am
_______________________________________

Bravo:
Kennedy tapes revealed:
8-9 Robert Kennedy begins recording an oral history shortly after JFKs assasination

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ORACLE NEVER!!!

[TheMojoPin]

They're gonna replay the Bravo special on RFK later tonight, and I HIGHLY reccomend it. Fascinating stuff. The History Channel will be showing a special that has recordings detailing RFK and Johnson's ugly relationship after JFK was killed this weekend as well.

The other History Cannel special were the ones from earlier in the week, and are painfully bad. ESPECIALLY the "Oswald mistress" episode.

Should We Believe Judyth Baker? (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/judyth.htm)

(Site is VERY busy these days, so refresh until it loads)

I'm really let down since History Channel was hyping all these specials, and all they've shown are the long-loathed (Even by most conspiracy buffs at this point) "The Men Who Killed Kennedy." At least they're re-showing the brilliant three hour JFK special that just came out this weekend.

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[Heavy]

the Johnson one was good, and there medical one is too. So many people telling the stories of what they saw or heard. I guess all these people are lying.

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A proportionate amount of props are equally distributed to my nigga's Fluff, Alexxis, CanOfSoup15, WWFallon and Katylina
HORDE KING FOREVER!!!
ORACLE NEVER!!!

[A.J.]

I've been watching the Peter Jennings Special tonight about the Kennedy assassination.


I just watched the rebroadcast on News Channel 8 down here.

I thought it made a compelling case that Oswald acted alone. The computer simulations were incredibly fascinating and what I really enjoyed (and don't think I ever saw before in other specials/documentaries) were the interviews with people who knew the players firsthand: Oswald's brother (!) and neighbors, Ruby's Rabbi, the Dallas newsmen who interviewed/knew Oswald and Ruby. They provided an insight into the type of people they really were and what motivated their actions.

I was particularly glad to see several issues raised in the Stone film debunked -- particularly Oswald's acumen as a Marine sniper. (Yeah, it was still an entertaining flick) Having been to the Book Depository and Dealey Plaza, I think that it may have been difficult but not impossible for Oswald to have made 3 successful shots from the 6th floor window. As I stated in a previous post, the Dealey Plaza area is a lot smaller than it seems on TV or in film. It certainly seems possible that a trained Marine could do it. (Granted, I don't know whether the trees were as tall as they were 40 years ago or not and that could certainly impact the likelihood of success.)

I came away from this special with the sense that Oswald and Ruby were two people who craved noteriety. Oswald in particular falls into the category of a Mark Chapman or John Hinckley: a disillusioned loner who wanted to be famous and did so by lashing out at a figure they resented (at least in Chapman's case anyway).

The scene that showed Kennedy and Connolly's seating positions in the limo made me wonder if any simulations or reenactments took into account Kennedy's back brace. I wonder if that affected the way his body reacted to the shots and if that affected the path of the bullet(s).

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[Heavy]

Well I missed that but I saw a thing last night where an expert marksman made the shots from the same angle blah blah etc

Anyway i also just saw how the photo was doctored to cover the huge portion of his head missing and how 16 doctors that were there that day didnt recognize that photo as what they saw, how 15 different faults were found in the secret services security that day including video of someone waving one of them away from the back of the limo.

Oh yea, thens theres the 30 people that saw a bullet hole in the windshield and all the people that determined the neck wound was an entrance hole.



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A proportionate amount of props are equally distributed to my nigga's Fluff, Alexxis, CanOfSoup15, WWFallon and Katylina
HORDE KING FOREVER!!!
ORACLE NEVER!!!

[TheMojoPin]

Granted, I don't know whether the trees were as tall as they were 40 years ago or not and that could certainly impact the likelihood of success.)

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They weren't. Far from it, in fact. The only shot of Oswald's that would perhaps have been hampered by the branches was the first for about two seconds before Kennedy's car goes behind the road sign in the Zapruder film. This is taken into account, and it is believed that the tree did cause Oswald's first to miss (Most likely a richochet off of a branch) and then strike the curb down by the triple underpass, where James Tague was struck in the cheek by fragments by what most believe was a bullet richochet.

The tree comparison was shown on the "Unsolved History" segments aired on The Discovery Channel the other night. The Knoll, on a side note, was even more obscured by bushes and tress than it is today.

AJ, you might find this article interesting. It goes into how "difficult" the shooting really would have been for someone in Oswald's location with his training and shooting records.

CRAIG ZIRBEL AND THE WARREN COMMISSION SHOOTING TESTS (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/zirbel.txt)

Anyway i also just saw how the photo was doctored to cover the huge portion of his head missing

Since johnee still hasn't grasped providing actual sources or information, I'll do it for him. He means the following photo...

LINKED TO SPARE THE SQUEMISH. VERY GRAPHIC AUTOPSY PHOTO. (http://karws.gso.uri.edu/JFK/issues_and_evidence/head_wound/bradford_22_mar_00/Head_wounds/Autopsy_photo.jpg)

That reproduction wasn't the best, but allow me to explain what johnee is talking about. On one of the episodes of "The Men Who Killed Kennedy", they interview a conspiracy researcher who claims that the aboe photo is fake, because he noticed, with his naked eye, mind you, no actual analysis, the the photo seems "blurred" around JFK's hairline by his neck. To him, this amounts to proof that the photo was doctored, though a number of professional photographic tests (Including a number initiated by conspiracy theorists themselves) has discovered anything to indicate this is so. The special "bravely" and insanely doesn't hide this, presenting a man who thinks a photo reproduction that "looks funny" to him as proof that the autopsy photo was altered.

A key thing to realize here is that there are several other autopsy photos, as well as x-rays. The man on the special, nor anyone else on it, challenge these other photos, or even bring them up. The favorite tool of conspiracy buffs returns yet again...selective information. Only reveal what strengthens your case and ignore or simply not address anything that doesn't.

In case anyone else was interested, you can view the other autopsy photos and x-rays at the link below. The link is to a pro-conspiracy site, but it's the best collection of all the images in one spot, so take it for what you will. Most of the picture captions are based on dated and inaccurate information.

JFK AUTOPSY PHOTOS AND X-RAYS. ***VERY GRAPHIC*** (http://www.jfklancer.com/aphotos.html)

Anyway i also just saw how the photo was doctored to cover the huge portion of his head missing and how 16 doctors that were there that day didnt recognize that photo as what they saw,

More selective information. Over the years, all 16 Parkland doctors have stated that they could not conclusively identify the head wounds as depicted in the autopsy photos. 14 of these doctors, however, have been very clear from the beginning that the reason for this is that none of them actually had a clear view of the head wound nor actually examined it as they were all frantically trying to save the man's life. Once he had died, the doctor's left the room with only Jackie and a priest in there. JFK's body was then wrapped and sealed in a coffin. None of the doctors had a chance to actually examine the head wound for more

[high fly]

It's too painful for me to concentrate on just now, but I would like to mention that I read of a bullet missing the president and hitting the car on the metal rim around the windshield.
The author of the book had interviewed one or more of the guys that cleaned up the car and the cat said there was a slug lodged in the top of the rim around the windshield.

Kudos to MOJO for his stamina for hanging in there on this one.

" and they ask me why I drink"

[TheMojoPin]

The author of the book had interviewed one or more of the guys that cleaned up the car and the cat said there was a slug lodged in the top of the rim around the windshield.

Another fragment from the third shot. All of the fragments were linked conclusively to Oswald's Manlicher Carcano to the exception of any other gun. Again, this is not a case of this witness lying or anything else so nefarious, but simply being mistaken. He found a large bullet fragment, and given that someone was shooting at the car, who wouldn't assume that one might have found an actual bullet? People tend to make these initial decisions when viewing something without the other available evidence or information. You have to sort through these and explain and fit in these incidents, as you do with ANY OTHER FORENSIC INVESTIGATION, yet buffs want the Kennedy case exempt from these sort of procedures.

Notice how this info is only brought to light by these people when it's convenient? The damage to the windshield and the rest of the car from the bullet fragments exploding out of JFK's head was detailed since day one in the Warren Report, yet it's presented as some damning "revelation" by those that would tear it down.

It doesn't hurt to present these two incidents as something other than bullet fragments, since them being bullet fragments would just be another piece of evidence added to the heap of proof pointing towards Oswald. Please observe the direction Kennedy's blood, bone and brain matter moves when the third shot explodes out of his head:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/images/z-313.jpg

Forward. And then the lighter matter blown back by the wind, as clearly shown on the Zapruder Film. Why would a shot from the front initially blast FORWARD out of Kennedy's head? You say THIS isn't a magic bullet?

Here's some information on the placement of the shrapnel and bullet fragments from the third shot.

The "Gore" Witnesses in Dealey Plaza (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/exploded.htm)

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Heavy]

Enough with that propaganda yore spreading you commie prick. That fake picture you found means shit. The real windshield was destroyed. Those bogus comments by dr whoever are the words of a threatened man, or they were simply changed like in so many other official statemnts involving this case. Mo talks a lot, be he has nothing. At least I have the truth to guide me. BTW, check this out

This would be the path for the "single bullet theory." Note that it would not have the correct angle back to the "sniper's nest" nor does it fit the "downward angle" of the throat wound shown by the Bethesda autopsy.

***CLICK LINK FOR PHOTO***
http://www.jfklancer.com/photos/Autopsy_photos/zeroang.jpg

*EDIT* johnee, I linked the autopsy photos in my posts, and I appreciate it if you did the same. If we're not gonna show porn, why are we going to show graphic images of violent death?

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HORDE KING FOREVER!!!
ORACLE NEVER!!!

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 11-25-03 @ 12:05 AM

[high fly]

He's soft on terrorism, too, y'know.

" and they ask me why I drink"

[Heavy]

fags too.

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A proportionate amount of props are equally distributed to my nigga's Fluff, Alexxis, CanOfSoup15, WWFallon and Katylina
HORDE KING FOREVER!!!
ORACLE NEVER!!!

[high fly]

Ever seen all that shit he's got painted on the outside of his '68 VW van?

" and they ask me why I drink"

[TheMojoPin]

Don't worry, things are in motion.

johnee will be silenced. He clearly knows too much.

This would be the path for the "single bullet theory." Note that it would not have the correct angle back to the "sniper's nest" nor does it fit the "downward angle" of the throat wound shown by the Bethesda autopsy.

Holy cow. A photo with an arrow through it and guesses based on simply looking at it? How will anyone ever disprove that? See the running theme? "Well, I don't THINK this photo looks like I think it should...CONSPIRACY! Everything else be damned!" Nevermind Kennedy's wounds are perfectly in line with a single shot from the rear at an elevated position.

The relative positions of JFK and JBC at Zapruder frame 223-224, and their subsequent movements, are consistent with the theory that both men were struck by a single bullet fired from the sixth floor sniper's nest of the Texas School Book Depository. (http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/concl2.htm)

The line of damage through the neck into the throat (http://karws.gso.uri.edu/JFK/Issues_and_evidence/Single-Bullet_theory/Line_of_damage/Line_of_damage.html)

I know it's not just a photo with a caption, but hey, what can you do? If that's what you want, here you go.

http://www.jfk-online.com/100myerssbt.jpg

http://www.jfk-online.com/100myersbw.jpg

Not only does the trajectory of Governor Connally's chest and back wound point towards JFK's throat wound, but the trajectories of both men's wounds point back to the "sniper's nest" window.

http://www.jfk-online.com/limoint35.jpg

Note the actual positioning of the limo's rear and jump seats.

Wadd, you better turn on the History Channel and watch the "Badgeman" special. When you're down wiping the jizz off of yourself, let us know what you thought.

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Heavy]

Mo constantly turns to govt issued "evidence" to "prove" his beliefs. Nevermind nothing being consistant wih eye witness accounts. All those crazy people making shit up! They just must want to be on TV,

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A proportionate amount of props are equally distributed to my nigga's Fluff, Alexxis, CanOfSoup15, WWFallon and Katylina
HORDE KING FOREVER!!!
ORACLE NEVER!!!

[TheMojoPin]

You're running around in circles, and it's just getting sad. The eyewitness reports OVERALL actually support the theory of Oswald as the shooter. You're focusing ONLY on those that oppose this idea, and those eyewitnesses and that evidence is in the FAR MINORITY when all the information is examined. You are clearly unwilling to attempt to do so, and you're only accepting what you want to hear. At the same time you're presenting nothing in terms of proof or evidence. I've shown, time and again, evidence and analysis that demonstrates EXACTLY how the assassination would have gone down. Step by step by step, "this happened and then this happened", who, why, when and how. You've presented nothing but theories, guesses and ideas, time after time. Now you're back throwing out desperate vaugeries that still aren't applicable, even though I've provided a number of studies that give you the idea of the mentality of eyewitnesses in an event like this.

Most of these people are NOT maliciously lying or trying to get attention. Most of them honestly belive they saw what they thought they saw. They just were, as plenty of people are in a split-second situation such as the assassiantion, wrong and/or mistaken. There are people who seemingly would support my theory who ended up being wrong...thinking the shots came from a different floor of the Depository or from other buildings behind Kennedy. It's ludicrous to think that every single testimony is 100% correct, or even that any ONE testimony is 100% accurate.

At some point in a criminal investigation, you have to go with the most consistent evidence and eyewitness testimony. It becomes clear which people are wrong or mistaken, and as such you MUST discount them. Why are you going to factor in wrong information if a mountain of evidence and eyewitnesses demonstrates something happened to the contrary? Why is the JFK assassination exempt to all the time-tested notions and "rules" of basic criminal deduction and investigation? By your way of thinking, we should ONLY listen to people in criminal cases who's stories contradict the majority of the rest of the case, AND we should discount those in the majority because clearly they are either lying, or were forced to do so.

You can only dismiss all of the evidence against Oswald if you truly believe that a massive conspiracy literally controlled every piece of evidence and witness in some way, shape or form, at which point you've reached a plan of impossibly superhuman capabilities that would require at the very LEAST a thousand people. And yet we're expected to believe something this huge has remained totally hidden for 40 years now? For once, ONCE in this entire thread, just use a little common sense. If you're going to automatically assume everything that opposes your theories is just "propaganda" or part of the "cover up" no matter what the source is, why even bother keeping up this thread? ALL of the sources in the above post alone are from independent researchers. Simply because they've found evidence that supports the idea of Oswald as the shooter it's now "government information?"

You're not shedding any light on anything that proves this to be so, or even that any of your points are right. In fact, you've yet to successfully challenge even one of my points as I've challenged ALL of yours, some even multiple times. This could be a fascinating debate, but you're settling for nothing on your side, and you're getting schooled because of that.

Time, invesitgations and technology have done nothing but serve to strengthen the lone gunman theory. If you want to bring up specific points, people, evidence and issues, go right ahead. I'll address each one. If you're going to just keep tossing out useless, pithy comments like the one above, don't bother. You're already getting spanked hard enough as it is.

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mothe

[Ndugu]

i have found the photographic evidence, it will answer all your questions, thank me later.

Photogrpahic Evidence (http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Lagoon/4053/PICTURE.HTM)

Dear Ndugu

[TheMojoPin]

Come on.

EVERYONE knows Bert from "Sesame Street" is the most evil puppet that ever lived.

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Se7en]

Mojo's such a fucking geek on this shit that it's bordering on nauseating.

<center><img border="0" src="http://se7enrfnet.homestead.com/files/KyoSe7en.jpg" width="300" height="125">
<br>
<br>
Resistance is <b>FLAMMABLE.</b></center>

[TheMojoPin]

Mojo's such a fucking geek on this shit that it's bordering on nauseating.

It's not your turn to be Captain Obvious yet.

But you SHOULD be on my side, as that most of the conspiracy charges are blatant liberal biases. What do they do? Try and defend Oswald, the ultimate pinko, lefty commie. Who do they blame? "Right wing anti-communists." It's all a diversion. I'm watching YOUR ass, fascist.

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[TheMojoPin]

I just watched the Fox News special on the assassination and the invesitgation afterwards, and they ended the program on an excellent point...there needs to be a new public federal inquiry into the assassination.

The last one was in the late 70's. I've gone on and on about how forensic technology has developed in recent years, and that's EXACTLY why a massive, professional and federally funded investigation should be brought out. Test out all the mountains of evidence with all the modern technology we have. Put it through the works. Find out what the hell happened.

I'm basing my conclusions on what's available now. That all needs to be proven wrong or right, definitvely. Settle it once and for all. If I'm right, hey, great. If not, boom, I'm wrong. 10 years ago, public interest in the case caused the government (federal and local) to release millions of documents related to it. Will anything similar happen this time around? I certainly hope so.

Of course, would conspiracy theorists ever accept ANYTHING from the government if it's not exactly what they believe?

In case there's anyone else reading this thread...we've got some "mature" members of this board...anyone actually alive during the assassination and remeber where they were or what they were doing?

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 11-23-03 @ 1:21 AM

[Heavy]

I've shown, time and again, evidence

No, youve shown shit released to support your theory. Anything oficially recognized leads to support the claim that Oswald did it alone because he felt like it and that Ruby did it alone, because he felt like it. Countless reports say there was a hole in the windshield and even he guy that removed and replaced AND destroyed it said it was a bullet hole, but you'll put up some picture of some windshield from a museum and say thats the one because thats officially "the" windshiled. One example of many.

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A proportionate amount of props are equally distributed to my nigga's Fluff, Alexxis, CanOfSoup15, WWFallon and Katylina
HORDE KING FOREVER!!!
ORACLE NEVER!!!

[Heavy]

I've shown, time and again, evidence

No, youve shown shit released to support your theory. Anything oficially recognized leads to support the claim that Oswald did it alone because he felt like it and that Ruby did it alone, because he felt like it. Countless reports say there was a hole in the windshield and even he guy that removed and replaced AND destroyed it said it was a bullet hole, but you'll put up some picture of some windshield from a museum and say thats the one because thats officially "the" windshiled. One example of many.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=JohneeWadd">
A proportionate amount of props are equally distributed to my nigga's Fluff, Alexxis, CanOfSoup15, WWFallon and Katylina
HORDE KING FOREVER!!!
ORACLE NEVER!!!

[TheMojoPin]

One guy claims it was destroyed.

Why is his word gospel? Why is the testimony of the people who say they removed the car parts for storage, those who ordered it to be so, those that stored it in the Archives, and those that have seen and examined it in the Archives suddenly moot? Why would it be destroyed and not the other parts of the car with damage from fragments and physical evidence (ie-blood, brain matter, etc.)? There's not a shred of consistency to this "cover up".

You're selectively choosing everything that goes against the evidence or majority testimony. If it's in the minority, you're championing it as right, just because it goes against the "official story", which is exactly what you're accusing me of? Why do YOU get of the hook with this?

The photo of the windshield is not "from a museum". It's from one of the many dozens of photos taken of the car as it was parked outside of Parkland Hospital before it was removed it from that location. I'm tired of finding all the photos and sources for you. There are scores of websites that host all of the thousands of news photos taken that day. The one I showed is the clearest shot of the richochet in the car. You'll see plenty others that show the car with the richochet visible. A bunch of people saw the richochet and did indeed think it was a bullet hole. The car was parked for only a few minutes outside of the hospital. It was surrounded by police and secret service. Nobody sat and stared at it or analyzed it in the confusion. It was investigated after the fact, as criminal investigations tend to go. If you want to believe that ALL of those photos are tampered with, fine, go ahead. You're hopeless.

I gave up long ago trying to convince you of anything because anything that indicates contrary to what you've made up your mind about you've already demmed ahead of time as "fake" or part of the "cover up." At some point a logcical person would have to look at this as they would look at any other criminal investigation as opposed to to it just being a special episode of "The X-Files".

I asked it in an earlier post, but would you believe anything revealed by a new federal invesitgation of the case? Even if it supported your theory? How would you know they're not just creating a NEW cover up, blaming it on long-dead people like Marcello and his associates and planting evidence, diverting you and your fellow crusaders from the REAL truth? How could you trust ANYTHING said by the government on the issue at ANY point?

Finally...

No, youve shown shit released to support your theory.

Yes. The official evidence in the criminal investigation we're discussing. Crazy, isn't it?

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 11-24-03 @ 2:26 PM

[A.J.]

In case there's anyone else reading this thread...we've got some "mature" members of this board...anyone actually alive during the assassination and remeber where they were or what they were doing?

I'll never forget where I was when I heard President McKinley had been shot.

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A Skidmark production.

Red Sox Nation

[high fly]

I refuse to answer the question AJ quotes on thegrounds that it may make me look like a boring old fart.

Ok MOJO, here's one for you-- Connolly's reaction.
Why is it delayed?
Sure, on the battlefield where adrenaline is running high, it has been known for someone to get shot and not fully realize it, but the time between Kennedy getting hit and Connolly's reaction, which on Zapruder is akin to him getting whacked in the back with a baseball bat--- whazzup with that?

" and they ask me why I drink"

[Heavy]

Mojo that dude actually had that statement put in his will just so it was on some official document. He died in the mid 90's. Crazy old man just making shit up.........for 35 years

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A proportionate amount of props are equally distributed to my nigga's Fluff, Alexxis, CanOfSoup15, WWFallon and Katylina
HORDE KING FOREVER!!!
ORACLE NEVER!!!

[TheMojoPin]

Ok MOJO, here's one for you-- Connolly's reaction.

Simple. People are typically looking in the wrong place when watching the Zapruder film. I did it hundreds of times before it was pointed out what I should REALLY be noticing.

Most people who dispute the single bullet theory point to the fact it seems to be almost two seconds before Conally reacts after JFK has been hit in the neck/back. They base this on Connally's facial reactions. He doesn't seem to react in pain or at all for almost two seconds.

This assumption is wrong.

Kennedy is believed by most to be reacting to the first bullet strike between frames 222 and 224 of the Zapruder Film. Connally's face doesn't register a reaction until about frame 236. What DOES happen between frame 223 and 224 with Conally, however, is a sudden, violent bulge forward of his jacket...approx. where and when the bullet tore out of his chest, and just a split-second after Kennedy has been hit, as would be the case if a single bullet did all the damage. This disputes the idea of two seperate bullets, because with that timing there would have to have been two shots from the rear at almost exactly the same time.

Observe the photo comparison below:

http://www.jfk-online.com/100jbcflip.jpg
Gov. Connally in Z frames 223 and 224

Why does it take another second for Connally to react as visibly as he does? His lung. What felled Connally was the sudden intake of air into his punctured lung, causing an explosion of agonizing pain. This isn't "government misinformation"...this is medical science, plain and simple.

If you want to get into other single bullet issues, namely how it's not a problem that Connally doesn't drop his hat or how the "magic bullet" is far, FAR from "pristine", I'm always up for it.

wadd, I can put it in my will that I was able to fly from 1982-1988. Who's gonna prove me wrong otherwise? You say the guy had the story for 35 years...yet waited over 20 to tell it? You still won't answer my question as to why any one opposing testimony automatically negates the consistent majority. Why is his word sacred gospel and the multitudes of people with largely consistent testimony from day one over the years are now bupkis?

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 11-24-03 @ 11:42 PM

[Heavy]

Thats easy. The majority believe there was a conspiracy. There are hundreds on upon hundreds of eye witnesses for eveything from the windshield to that thing, to the other thing. A great many of these witnesses actually had their statements changed "officially". They say that they said one thing, and their statement came out with extra lines in it or with the words changed around to say something different. Theres your majority of witnesses smart ass

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HORDE KING FOREVER!!!
ORACLE NEVER!!!

[sr71blackbird]

Id just accept the single gunman theory because it far simpler to understand that all the wounds line up with each other and point to the window in the book depository. He stated before that the inside of the windshields damage was caused by the fragmenting bullet that went though the men in the car. If it came from the knoll, would it be inside the windshield? Its more likely that a splatter on the inside came from the back, wouldnt it? What was in behind the windshield?--Kennedy/Connoly--Whats behind them?-- The book depository. Even the damage to the upper top of the windshield, the fragement that damaged the inside lip of the upper edge of the windshield frame is consistant with a projectile that came from behind it. Im sure since having visited the site you are aware, its much smaller than it seems on tv, so it really isnt like Oswald was firing from miles away or something, he was like 50-100 feet away! Even I could hit a beer can with my 22 rifle from that distance.

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This message was edited by sr71blackbird on 11-25-03 @ 8:17 AM

[TheMojoPin]

A great many of these witnesses actually had their statements changed "officially". They say that they said one thing, and their statement came out with extra lines in it or with the words changed around to say something different. Theres your majority of witnesses smart ass

You're using another great conspiracy theorist myth here, and then reversing it on me. An overwhelming number of consistent witnesses testify to three shots or less and/or the shots coming from the Depository. I showed you these numbers back on page three or somewhere else on this thread. These a re numbers that have existed since day one of the shooting, not afterwards. These people also have the highest percentage of consistent eyewitness testimony in that their testimony has changed little over the years. The conspiracy witnesses, however, almost unanimously have stories that constantly evolve, change, grow and are embellished over the years. Theyir stories are not consistent. Something changes and/or details are added with each telling. This is not the mark of a good eyewitness, and law enforcement officials are trained to look for this. Yet once again, according to wadd, the assassiantion should NOT be treated as a criminal investigation, so those time-tested investigation methods are to be tossed out the window. It's pretty easy to say your testimony was changed when you're constantly changing it yourself. And even these people are still in the far, FAR minority. If the Warren Report was changing everyone's testimony, what's up with the hundreds of other witnesses who apparently had no problem with what was published? Don't give me this intimidation crap. For all the talk of people getting "rubbed out" for knowing too much, why are all these OTHER witnesses out there "bravely telling their story" not dead? Why not kill or threaten any of these conspiracy investigators before they find out the truth? According to buffs, the conspirators had no problem silencing anyone they thought could be a "problem". What, did they get bashful all of a sudden?

And as I've said, most of these people AREN'T lying. They think there might be a possibility that they could have seen something. Then in a case like this, where you have all of these theories and details running around, people start thinking, "yeah, it COULD have been that way" or "maybe I DID see that." They end up honestly belive what they're saying. But because that doesn't line up with what they saw as a fresh eyewitness, all the talk of the big bad Warren Report changing testimonies seems all too possible. They convince themselves that they saw whatever they're now claiming to have seen, and that someone from the "cover up" got to them. I've posted several articles that examine the psychological effects of a shocking and media-saturated event such as the assassination upon eyewitnesses. Read them.

And as much as you want to try and twist this, two things discount the idea of knoll shooter almost beyond the shadow of a doubt...first, for all the people who now like to claim a shot came from the knoll, nobody actually saw one fired, despite dozens of witnesses looking DIRECTLY AT IT AS KENNEDY WAS SHOT. Contrast this with witnesses who have stated within MINUTES of the assassination that they not only saw a gun, but saw it firing from the Depository. Secondly, if there WAS a second gunman, he left not even a microbe of forensic evidence anywhere on the knoll. This is is an impossibility if we're supposed to believe someone was shooting back there. Of course, you're seemingly willing to give the great conspiracy the power to do ANYTHING, so I'm sure you think they just made all that "vanish."

The majority believe there was a conspiracy.

So what? If what they say proves otherwise, isn't that now moot? When I deposit money in the bank, I BELIEVE I have a million dollars in there, but that doesn't make it so. The majority can "believe" what they want. These people were called to testify what they think they SAW, not what they BE

[uncleryan]

You guys need to read a book called "behold a pale horse" it goes into depth about the assasination. It actually says that Kennedy was assasinated because he had a speech scheduled that week to tell America that there were aliens and that the government has been communicating with them. It goes on to say that the limo driver was the one who pulled the trigger.It sounds insane but when you read the whole book it seems possible. It goes into also the whole conspiracy of "Secret Societys"

[Heavy]

Francheesy reports 57 witnesses report gunshots from.......guess!

Mo, what does your biased govt created reports say about the Oswald- ferry connection?

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[Furtherman]

You guys need to read a book called "behold a pale horse"


By William Cooper.

Interesting read, but the guy was a little off balance. He ended up being shot a couple years back by a sheriff, after shooting one of his deputies.

.. then again.... he could have been silenced.

<IMG SRC="http://www.chaoticconcepts.com/randomizer/random.php?uid=7">
...with thanks to JustJon

[TheMojoPin]

Wadd, you're grasping. You're bringing up issues I've already addressed. Allow myself to quote...myself.

That number of witnesses is wrong. Period.

20 witnesses reported shots that came from the vicinity of the knoll.

46 reported shots from the area of the Texas School Book Depository.

29 who reported shots from came from a different direction altogether.

And 76 (Almost half of the total) couldn't tell for sure which direction the shots came from.

(Hearings before the Subcommittee on the Assassination of John F. Kennedy of the Select Committee on Assassinations, House of Representatives, Vol. II, p. 122.)

These numbers can lead one to several conclusions, the LEAST of which is that shots were fired from the knoll. The Depository is the single one location that the MOST witnesses identified as being the source of the shots, the location where the evidence against the accused assassin was found. More people indetified a SEPERATE location besides the knoll...why do you discount their testimony, when just as much actual evidence exists to support their testimony as the knoll witnesses...NONE?

MOST importantly, out the 178 witnesses tabulated for the House Select Committee, only FOUR(!) reported shots coming from more than one direction. So unless ALL of the shooting was done by your phantom gunman on the knoll, something doesn't match up.

The witnesses also limit the number of shots to three, which automatically dismisses your notion that the president was shot in the throat from the side(?). If Kennedy was shot in the throat, then you have to account for the bullet that hit him in the back. Since you've eliminated the throat wound as an exit wound, a third bullet has to account for the wounds in Connelly. Then you need a fourth for the fatal head wound to JFK, and THEN you need a FIFTH bullet to account for the ricochet damage to the curb just before the overpass. That's at least five shots fired. Let's see how that stacks up against what the witnesses heard.

An overwhelming majority of witnesses, 80.8% reported hearing ONLY 2 to 3 shots. The next largest group, 10.5%, reports only a total of 1 to 2 shots, while the SMALLEST group of witnesses, a mere 8.7%, report hearing 4 or more shots.

(Hearings before the Subcommittee on the Assassination of John F. Kennedy of the Select Committee on Assassinations, House of Representatives, Vol. II, p. 122.)

Overall only 20.2% of the witnesses reported shots from the knoll, the possibility of which is reduced essentially to NIL by the 91.3% that reported hearing THREE SHOTS OR LESS.

Read it this time. I'm sick of repeating myself.

Here's a comparison I found helpful. Imagine someone is shot outside of a club three times in the back by someone halfway up the block. There are 15 witnesses. No witness has a story that's exactly the same. 8 witnesses, however, all have the consistent details that they saw the shooter fire three bullets, heard the shooter fire three bullets, and saw the shooter run around the corner. 3 witnesses saw the shooter, but feel only two shots were fired from the back and think MAYBE another came from the front or side, if at all. 2 say there were only shots from the front, but there were two shooters. 2 say the guy was shot 6 times from 6 different directions and didn't see ANY shooters.

Now if you're an investigator, which group are you going to think has the most accurate, relevant and consistent information? If I was a conspiracy theorist, I could distort these figues and say "nearly half of the witnesses disagree with the official version that one man fired three shots from the back." Nevermind that I'm hiding the fact that the "nearly half" don't even agree with each other, much less the majority of the witnesses. AGAIN, I ask, why is the criminal investigation of the JFK shooting exempt from this kind of logic? And why can the conspiracy theorists distort and supress all the info they want, while accusing the government of the same thing and dismissing the "official" evidence because

[TheMojoPin]

It sounds insane but when you read the whole book it seems possible.

And there's the mantra of the conspiracy theorists, people. Evidence be damned...if it SOUNDS good, well, hey, who are we to not believe it?

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[Heavy]

The evidence is damned. And fake. Person one reports something to the FBI and it is never filed or looked into. Person two has proof someone else was in the window, and theyre hung up on. Person three see's this guy doing that,and hes ignored. This investigation finds these 2 people never knew eachother, meanwhile theres dozens of pictures and people that know they were friends. What a joke

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[Heavy]

As for Ferrie, there exists not a single credible shred of evidence of ANY kind linking Oswald to him

You mean besides the pictures and countless people that have met with them both?

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[TheMojoPin]

Show me a photo.

Count the people.

You're an idiot.

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 11-27-03 @ 4:44 AM

[Heavy]

<img src="http://www.jfk-online.com/ciravolo.jpg"width=450>

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HORDE KING FOREVER!!!
ORACLE NEVER!!!

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 11-28-03 @ 2:29 PM

[Heavy]

Here (http://www.geocities.com/northstarzone/JFKASSASINATION.html)

He planned to abolish the CIA's right to conduct covert operations, and eventually dismantle it. In 1962, the Joint Chiefs of Staff presented Kennedy with Operation Northwoods. Operation Northwoods would have had our own government inflicting terrorist attacks upon US citizens, and blaming it on our enemies, mainly Cuba, to justify wars and political assassinations.

One Phillip Willis took a series of 12 photos of Dealey Plaza, where Kennedy was shot, in the minutes before and after the assassination. Mr. Willis' photos and testimony before the Warren Commission appear in the Warren Commission's report. He was not questioned about the eighth photo, a shot of the Book Depository entrance shortly after the shooting. As Willis later pointed out, one of the men in the photo "looks so much like Jack Ruby, Oswald's soon to be assassin, it's pitiful". F.B.I. agents questioning Willis agreed with him that the man bore a powerful resemblance to Ruby. When Willis mentioned this to the Commission, no interest was shown. When the photo was published in the Warren Report, a considerable part of the Ruby lookalike's face had been cropped away.

Johnson was also seen ducking down in his car a good 30 to 40 seconds before the first shots were fired, even before the car turned onto Houston street. Lyndon Johnson was acting as if he knew bullets would soon be flying, ducking down repeatedly before the shots went off.



etc etc

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[Heavy]

And another thing. All your Witnesses seem to support the lone gunman-oswald bullshit story, but did you ever consider that anyone that was wiling to speak the real truth was either threatened or actually killed. All those fucking people comitted suicide or accidentally got shot or dies of cancer suddenly. How do you explain that shit? And the Warren Investigation was complete bullshit. It was a forced investigation by a man in on it that ingored any information and refused to put any real evidence into the court that didnt support the lone gunman thoery. This stupidity makes me sick.

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HORDE KING FOREVER!!!
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[TheMojoPin]

NOW we're getting somewhere. wadd's finally grown a pair and is putting something on the table.

Let's first address the photo.

When Oswald was a youth, he was part of an organization called the Civil Air Patrol (CAP). This was when he lived in New Orleans at the age of 15. David Ferrie was part of this organization, and would have been the captain of Oswald's unit...had he been active at the time. Ferrie was actually on "forced leave" from the unit, and only attended the picnic during the brief, several month period Oswald attended a few CAP "drill" meetings. Those that attended the picnic and were interviewed stated that Ferrie was only there briefly, and that he and Oswald never talked or even met each other. Shortly after, Oswald moved away with his mother back to Texas. So unless Ferrie and Oswald shared some kind of telepathic meeting during the picnic...EIGHT YEARS BEFORE the assassiantion...it's highly unlikely that any kind of relationship was forged at that time. By the logic wadd is presenting, anyone Oswald was ever
photographed with in his entire life is suspect with the assassiantion. And no, David Ferrie is not "more of a suspect", because nothing actually exists that links him to the assassiantion itself in any way, shape or form.

Here's some information people may be interested in...

Who was David Ferrie? (http://www.jfk-online.com/jfk100whoferrie.html)

David Ferrie: Presumed Guilty (http://www.jfk-online.com/ferriepre.html)

OSWALD, DAVID FERRIE AND THE CIVIL AIR PATROL (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/cap.txt)

As for the NEXT post, well, the page wadd has linked is quoting practically wholesale from "JFK" and contains mostly out of date and debunked information by almost a decade. Don't waste my time. As I've already stated, the CIA had their powers severely limited by presidents AFTER Kennedy, so if they were so antsy about this, and could pull off such a good cover up, why weren't they killing presidents and government officials left and right? The CIA has also been "caught" on numberous internal cover ups and screw ups over the last 40 years, yet not a single shred or microbe of evidence indicating they did anything like that outside of trying to sweep away the fact they screwed up in not realizing Oswald, a recorded defector, was where he was that day exists.

Operation Northwoods is a myth. Much like "Iron Mountain". Nice try.

Ruby was not at the book depository, or in Dealy Plaza, during the assassination. He was at a local Dallas newspaper settling the bill for the advertisements for his clubs when the news of the killing came in. Nearly two dozen witnesses verify this alibi. The check he left was filed that day, and handwriting analysis indeed confirmed it as Ruby's. Feel free to post the photo you're talking about if you want.

Same goes for the Johnson theory. There are several photos existing of the motorcade, including LBJ's car, after the first show was fired. Not only does it show the crowd and most of those in the motorcade looking back in the direction of the depository, the only people reacting to the shots are in the president's car. If Johnson was so worried about getting hit, why was he not ducking once the shooting actually started?

wadd, they're not "my" witnesses, and no, not all of them actually support the lone gunman theory 100%, or sometimes at all, in their opinion or testimony. But the information they provided, combined with the evidence and other testimony, points to that inexcapable conclusion. The "sinister death" theory is a load of crap, as that the majority of ANY of the witnesses, supporting ANY theory, lived out their days to either still be alive now or die of natural causes. Combine that with the fact the most important witnesses to the assassination in Dealy Plaza are either alive or have just died in recent years, and you've got a pretty shitty "hit squad". Plus, you'd have to let more people in on the conspiracy if you're hiring killers to "rub people out". Doesn't the defy the logi

[Heavy]

People die in a variety of ways. Your implication is that anyone who died in any way at any time after the assassiantion is "mysterious".


In ANY way? C'mon now Mo.......

11/63 - Karyn Kupicinet - Daughter of TV host who was overheard talking about JFK's death prior to the assassination - Murder

2/64 - Betty MacDonald - Former stripper at Ruby's Carousel Club. Provided an alibi for Darrell W. Garner after he was arrested for shooting Warren Reynolds in the head. Reynolds was the man who chased Patrolman J.D. Tippit's killer and later failed to identify him as Oswald. One week after Gardner's release, she was arrested by Dallas police for disturtbing the peace. In jail, she was found hanged from her toreador pants - Suicide

2/64 - Eddy Benavides - Brother of Domingo Benavides, one of the witnesses in the shooting of patrolman J.D. Tippit. Domingo failed to identify Oswald as the shooter until his brother was shot in the head in a Dallas bar. Then he recognized Oswald. - Gunshot

3/64 - Hank Killam - A house painter who lived at Mrs. A.C. Johnson's rooming house at the same time as Lee Harvey Oswald. His wife, Wanda, was a former Ruby employee. Though Killam was hounded by federal investigators after the assassination, all references to him were extripated from the Warren Report - Murder

4/64 - Bill Hunter - One of the two reporters who met with George Senator and Dallas Attorney Tom Howard in Ruby's apartment the night Oswald was shot - Accidental shooting by policeman

5/64 - Gary Underhill - CIA agent who accused the Agency of being behind the assassination - Self-inflicted gunshot to the head

8/64 - Teresa Norton - Former Ruby employee - Gunshot

9/64 - Jim Koethe - The second reporter who was in Ruby's apartment on the night after he killed Oswald. Killed by a karate chop to the throat as he emerged from a shower in his apartment. No one was charged with the killing - Murder

9/64 - C.D. Jackson - Life magazine senior Vicepresident who bought the Zapruder film and locked it away - Unknown

10/64 - Mary Pinchot - JFK's alleged lover whose diary was taken by CIA chief James Angleton after her death - Murder

5/65 - Maurice Gatlin - Pilot for Guy Banister - Fatal fall

9/65 - Rose Cheramie - Had previous knowledge of the assassination. Claimed to have travelled to Dallas with Cubans - Hit and run victim

11/65 - Dorothy Kilgallen - Journalist who had private interview with Ruby. Said she was "going to break this case wide open." - Drug overdose

11/65 - Mrs. Earl Smith - Friend to Dorothy Kilgallen. Died two days after the columnist. May have kept Kilgallen's notes - Undetermined

12/65 - William Whaley - Cab driver who reportedly drove Oswald to the Oak Cliff section of Dallas where he murdered Patrolman J.D. Tippit - Car crash

1966 - Karen Carlin - A dancer at Ruby's club. She phoned Ruby the morning before he shot Oswald and asked him to wire her $25 that she needed for rent and groceries. Curiously, there is no clear evidence that Carlin is dead. Many believe she is still alive under an asumed name the witness protection program. - Gunshot

2/66 - Albert Bogard - Car salesman at a Dallas downtown Lincoln-Mercury dealership who said Oswald test drove a new car days before the assassination. Oswald, or someone impersonating him, allegedly told Bogard he was about to obtain a large sum of money. Shortly after Bogard testified to a Warren Commission attorney in Dallas, he was badly beaten and had to be hospitalized. Upon his release, he was fearful for his safety. He was found dead in his car Valentine's Day with a rubber hose was attached to the exhaust and the other end extending into the car. - Suicide

6/66 - Cpt. Frank Martin - Dallas policeman who witnessed the Oswald slaying. Martin told the Warren Commission, "there's a lot to be said but probably be better if I don't say it" - "Sudden" cancer

9/66 - Delilah Walle - Another dancer who worked in Ruby's club. Shot by husband after 1 month their wedding. Was supposedly working on a book about the

[TheMojoPin]

I'm not posting this again for my health, dipshit.

"Strange" and "Convenient" Deaths Surrounding the Assassination (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/deaths.htm)

You're clearly using or drawing from the "master" list originally constrcuted by Jim Marrs for his book "Crossfire". Singlehandedly it has perpetuated the myth that people having something to do with the assassination are dying or being murdered in droves.

"Unfortunately for Marrs and other conspiracy authors, the logical problems with this whole argument are many and massive.

If the purpose of the "clean-up squad" is to eliminate people who have knowledge of a conspiracy, recruiting people into a "clean-up squad" is a counter-productive activity. Each person recruited becomes yet another person who has knowledge of a conspiracy and might "spill the beans."

Marrs' list is drawn from a pool of literally thousands of people - a few of whom had a clear connection with the assassination, many of whom had some tangential connection with the assassination, and some of whom had no connection with the assassination at all.

For example, Marrs' list includes one woman who was one of Kennedy's mistresses, but had no known connection with the assassination. It includes a man who was mayor of New Orleans (but who had no known connection with the assassination), and it includes the Chief Steward on Air Force One!

The list includes people who were merely connected to the Mafia, the CIA, anti-Castro Cubans, or Time-Life, Incorporated. Marrs is assuming that all these groups were connected with the assassination. In other words, he assumes a conspiracy involving all these groups, tabulates deaths, and then announces that the large number of deaths supports the idea of a conspiracy!

Most well-known conspiracy witnesses and authors are still alive. For example, of the best-known conspiracy authors who wrote books in the 1960s, Mark Lane, Edward J. Epstein, and Josiah Thompson are still alive. Sylvia Meagher is dead, but not even Marrs lists her death as "suspicious." Penn Jones died in January 1998 in a nursing home at the age of 83 after a long struggle with Alzheimer's disease. Harold Weisberg likewise died in February of 2002 after a long period of failing health. The most prominent conspiracy authors from the 70s and early 80s like David Lifton, Robert Groden, Henry Hurt, Anthony Summers, and Harrison Edward Livingstone are all still alive.
The star conspiracy witnesses who are seen in all the videos are still alive: Beverly Oliver, Malcolm Summers, and Ed Hoffman. Jean Hill passed away on November 7, 2000, but even her supporters don't claim her death was suspicious.

If a conspiracy was going around killing people who knew things that were dangerous to it, it would make sense that all the key witnesses would be killed quickly. But Marrs' list includes people who died as late as 1984. Given that many people associated with the assassination were at the peak of their professional careers at the time of the shooting, it's not surprising that many of them would have died within twenty years.

Marrs' list is laced with people who have a larger than average chance of a violent death: law officers, people on the edges of the underworld (strippers), people very much part of the underworld (Mafia figures), and people with a clear history of alcohol or drug abuse, or of mental illness (Rose Cheramie, Dorothy Kilgallen, George de Mohrenschildt).

About half the people on Marrs' list died of natural causes. Marrs assures his readers that of course the CIA can kill people and make the death look "natural" (Crossfire, p. 556-557). This raises the question of why the conspirators allowed any of the deaths to seem violent or suspicious.
In virtually every case, there is no evidence that the person had any information on the assassination not already given in Warren Commission testimony, statements to police and the media, and interviews with private researchers. The logic seems to be that they must have known something, since, after all, they wer

[Heavy]

I'm not posting this again for my health, dipshit.

Well why are you posting it again, dipshit? I saw your link and i saw my own. Whats your point? Whatever you do, dont post it again because links shouldnt be ignored and i feel guilty. I admit, I do like what you do. I give a list and then you put a spin on it. Oh that list was created for this reason by this person and then we found out that the whole thing was really for this reason and that he never finished because OHSHUTTHEFUCKUPALREADY Who fucking cares why it was put together!!!??? Unless youre going to say it was a made up list, then the list stands as is! It counts! Face the facts, dozens of people that had said things, saw things or were planning on saying things Accidently got murdered, commited suicide, had car accidents or apparently got lost on trips and never returned. Facts my firend. Dont be scared of them, embrace them and learn from them.

At first you say:

As for Ferrie, there exists not a single credible shred of evidence of ANY kind linking Oswald to him

Wadd shows pic

Mo changes story:


David Ferrie was part of this organization, and would have been the captain of Oswald's unit.


Now seriously Mo, lets be real, all that other you said about leave and whatnot could easily be made up or innaccurate. Theres actually other pictures of them but they are bad quality and wouldnt prove to you anything you couldnt spin out of with an empty 100 line post that contains nothing but shit

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This message was edited by johneewadd on 11-28-03 @ 10:07 PM

[mikeyboy]

C'mon, Mojo. Just give him your number already. The two of you can hash this out over endless pasta bowls at the Olive Garden.


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[CaptClown]

"It was an age when a great many people would rather embrace a patently absurd conspiracy theory tham bother to research the facts and accept a simple observable truth. They seemed to have confused real life and fiction, eagerly seeking Byzantine schemes and cabals of maniacl villains straight out of Ludlam novels. But the reality was nearly always far less dramatic and immeasurably less flamboyant. It was a coping mechanism, a means by which they tried to bring order to- and make sense of- a high tech world in which the pace of social and technological change dizzied and frightened them.", Dean Koontz "Winter Moon".

Director of the C.Y.A. Society.
Field Marshal of the K.I.S.S. Army
Poison Clan rocks the world

[TheMojoPin]

This is hopeless.

Unless youre going to say it was a made up list, then the list stands as is! It counts! Face the facts, dozens of people that had said things, saw things or were planning on saying things Accidently got murdered, commited suicide, had car accidents or apparently got lost on trips and never returned. Facts my firend. Dont be scared of them, embrace them and learn from them.

Go back and re-read what I said. Then re-read (If you read at all) the analysis of the very list you posted. Read how many of the deaths were not "mysterious" or "suspicious" and then how many also had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ASSASSINATION. The mayor of New Orleans is on there SIMPLY BECAUSE HE WAS THE MAYOR OF NEW ORLEANS AT THE TIME OF THE GARRISON INVESTIGATION. There's a steward from Air Force One. There's a mistress of Kennedy's. J. Edgar Hoover is on that list, even though he died of a heart attack at the age of seventy-fucking-seven. Are ANY deaths of ANYONE remotely involved with Kennedy or the assassination "normal" in your view? By your logic, ALL OF THESE DEATHS could just be faked or covered-up. Once again you've painted yourself into a corner, as I stated before with how you couldn't possibly "solve" this case since you'd accept NO official government investigation (Which you've selectively chosen not to address). How can you assume ANYONE who died after the assassination who were somehow involved in it died a "normal" death. By your own logic you can't.

And AGAIN, the amount of people that lived full lives and died of old age or clearly natural cause or are still alive who had direct involvement with the assassination far, FAR outweighs your list.

Of COURSE people from any large group of people are going to die "too soon". When you start stacking your list with gangsters, strippers, drug addicts, alcoholics, "revolutionaries" and criminals as Marrs did, you're setting yourself up with people who are practically statistically predisposed to die violent and/or premature deaths.

There are people on there only because they have a tenative connection to people like Kennedy, or Jim Garrison, or Lee Harvey Oswald, or Jack Ruby, AND NOT THE ASSASSINATION ITSELF. These are NOT "facts." These are trumped-up stats to back up a false charge that doesn't have a shred of legitimate evidence to begin with.

At first you say:



As for Ferrie, there exists not a single credible shred of evidence of ANY kind linking Oswald to him




Wadd shows pic

Mo changes story:




David Ferrie was part of this organization, and would have been the captain of Oswald's unit.

Now seriously Mo, lets be real, all that other you said about leave and whatnot could easily be made up or innaccurate. Theres actually other pictures of them but they are bad quality and wouldnt prove to you anything you couldnt spin out of with an empty 100 line post that contains nothing but shit

Horseshit. I stand by my statement, have no reason not to, and you have nothing to disprove it. The FBI and local New Orleans police investigated the connection and found shit. Of course, that'll mean nothing to you. They interviewed people who had been in the CAP unit with both men and at the damn picnic. Ferrie was there for less than an hour, and he only spoke with a couple of people, none of which were Oswald. Oswald only attended 3 or 4 CAP functions because of his friend from school. Ferrie was ONLY at that picnic, and none of the other "drill sessions" Oswald attended. THE PHOTO IS NOT PROOF OF A CONNECTION. How fucking obvious does that have to be?

And let's say that Ferrie and Oswald DID meet and talk that day, when Oswald was 15, eight years before the assassination. So what? There's nothing linking the two men at all in the next eight years. David Ferrie does not have a single actual connection to the assassination itself. This picnic is moot. By this way of thinking, anyone ever taken in a photograph with Oswald at any age in his life is linked to the assassinati

[TheMojoPin]

This thread probably won't end any time soon, so unless anything else specific comes up I want to address, I'm just going to point people towards my two primary sources. Both websites are ridicuously well-organized, cited and resourced. Both also have search engines that allow you to search for info on any subject. The first actually hosts the two largest assassination alt. boards on the web, so there's a MOUNTAIN of info to go through, lone gunman OR conspiracy.

Enjoy!

Kennedy Assassination Home Page (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu)

JFK Assassination Resources Online (http://www.jfk-online.com)

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 11-29-03 @ 1:12 AM

[Heavy]

Read how many of the deaths were not "mysterious" or "suspicious"

Ok I'll count them, as long as you count how many were murdered or commited suicide :wink wink:

Let me help...



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[TheMojoPin]

*Sigh*

It doesn't MATTER how many were murdered. You first have to subtract all the people who actually had nothing to do with the case. Then realize that people in a large group of ANYTHING or going to die unnaturally. THEN you have to analyze whether the death actually could have been orchestrated by a "hit squad".

If you used my list, you could see the results based on official police information. But of course, all of the police around the country are "in on it", right? So think whatever the hell you want. I've said my case and presented my info. I'm not hiding anything, it's all out here for who ever wants to see it.

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[Heavy]

Not to worry budday, I only counted people with direct info that had or were going to testify or give information on a conspiracy. 18 is my number

You see the information I'm using is not govt issued bullshit. Lets assume there was a conspiracy, would you expect the police or govt to issue facts not supporting that? Or do you think they would issue things to support the claim. Think about it. 18 people were murdered or commited suicide that had direct information on a possible conspiracy

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HORDE KING FOREVER!!!
ORACLE NEVER!!!

[TheMojoPin]

GodDAMMIT, let me leave this HELL.

Alright, I'll bite. Let's see the names.

I'll give you what I know tomorrow. I'm going to sleep. Black Friday wiped me out.

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 11-29-03 @ 1:28 AM

[Heavy]

Damn you, I'm drunk at it took me 20 minutes to staighen my eyes and keep cont of these dead fuckers. here you go:

1-
11/63 - Karyn Kupicinet - Daughter of TV host who was overheard talking about JFK's death prior to the assassination - Murder

2-
2/64 - Betty MacDonald - Former stripper at Ruby's Carousel Club. Provided an alibi for Darrell W. Garner after he was arrested for shooting Warren Reynolds in the head. Reynolds was the man who chased Patrolman J.D. Tippit's killer and later failed to identify him as Oswald. One week after Gardner's release, she was arrested by Dallas police for disturtbing the peace. In jail, she was found hanged from her toreador pants - Suicide

3&4-
2/64 - Eddy Benavides - Brother of Domingo Benavides, one of the witnesses in the shooting of patrolman J.D. Tippit. Domingo failed to identify Oswald as the shooter until his brother was shot in the head in a Dallas bar. Then he recognized Oswald. - Gunshot

5-
3/64 - Hank Killam - A house painter who lived at Mrs. A.C. Johnson's rooming house at the same time as Lee Harvey Oswald. His wife, Wanda, was a former Ruby employee. Though Killam was hounded by federal investigators after the assassination, all references to him were extripated from the Warren Report - Murder

6-
4/64 - Bill Hunter - One of the two reporters who met with George Senator and Dallas Attorney Tom Howard in Ruby's apartment the night Oswald was shot - Accidental shooting by policeman

7-
5/64 - Gary Underhill - CIA agent who accused the Agency of being behind the assassination - Self-inflicted gunshot to the head



8-
9/64 - Jim Koethe - The second reporter who was in Ruby's apartment on the night after he killed Oswald. Killed by a karate chop to the throat as he emerged from a shower in his apartment. No one was charged with the killing - Murder


9-
10/64 - Mary Pinchot - JFK's alleged lover whose diary was taken by CIA chief James Angleton after her death - Murder



10-
9/65 - Rose Cheramie - Had previous knowledge of the assassination. Claimed to have travelled to Dallas with Cubans - Hit and run victim

11-
11/65 - Dorothy Kilgallen - Journalist who had private interview with Ruby. Said she was "going to break this case wide open." - Drug overdose

12-
11/65 - Mrs. Earl Smith - Friend to Dorothy Kilgallen. Died two days after the columnist. May have kept Kilgallen's notes - Undetermined

13-
2/66 - Albert Bogard - Car salesman at a Dallas downtown Lincoln-Mercury dealership who said Oswald test drove a new car days before the assassination. Oswald, or someone impersonating him, allegedly told Bogard he was about to obtain a large sum of money. Shortly after Bogard testified to a Warren Commission attorney in Dallas, he was badly beaten and had to be hospitalized. Upon his release, he was fearful for his safety. He was found dead in his car Valentine's Day with a rubber hose was attached to the exhaust and the other end extending into the car. - Suicide

14
6/66 - Cpt. Frank Martin - Dallas policeman who witnessed the Oswald slaying. Martin told the Warren Commission, "there's a lot to be said but probably be better if I don't say it" - "Sudden" cancer

15
5/67 - William Waters - His mother said William tried to talk Oswald and Killam out of getting involved in the plot to assassinate JFK. Waters called FBI agents after the assassination. The FBI told him he knew too much and to keep his mouth shut. He was arrested and kept in Memphis in a county jail for eight months on a misdemeanor charge. - Drug overdose

16
1/69 - E.R. Walthers - A Dallas Deputy Sheriff who was involved in the Book Depository search and claimed to have found .45-cal. slug from the bullet that killed President Kennedy - Shot by a felon


17
1970 - George McGann - Underworld figure connected to Ruby. His wife, Beverly Oliver, claimed to knew that Oswald and Ruby where acquainted, and that David Ferrie was a regular in Ruby's Carousel Club. She also claimed to be the so-called "Babushka Lady" in Dealey Plaza and allegedly filmed the motor

[TheMojoPin]

1-
11/63 - Karyn Kupicinet - Daughter of TV host who was overheard talking about JFK's death prior to the assassination - Murder

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/kupcinet.htm

2-
2/64 - Betty MacDonald - Former stripper at Ruby's Carousel Club. Provided an alibi for Darrell W. Garner after he was arrested for shooting Warren Reynolds in the head. Reynolds was the man who chased Patrolman J.D. Tippit's killer and later failed to identify him as Oswald. One week after Gardner's release, she was arrested by Dallas police for disturtbing the peace. In jail, she was found hanged from her toreador pants - Suicide

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/nancy_mooney.htm

3&4-
2/64 - Eddy Benavides - Brother of Domingo Benavides, one of the witnesses in the shooting of patrolman J.D. Tippit. Domingo failed to identify Oswald as the shooter until his brother was shot in the head in a Dallas bar. Then he recognized Oswald. - Gunshot

Death was judged non-sinister (In terms of being linked to the case) by the HSCA in the 70's.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/crs.htm

Domingo NEVER identified Oswald from photos shown to him. That's because he said he couldn't positively identify the shooter specifically as ANYONE, because he feels he didn't see the face. As he said to the inerviewer, "he could have been you." What HAS been consistent is that Domingo's description of the shooter's height, build, complexion and hair color matches that of the other witnesses who place Oswald at the scene.

Just to point out, there are two people in a row now who have nothing to do with the case, yet you're trying to present their murder/suicides as being involved. Having a "hit squad" do this actually expand the conspiracy and the cover-up, not protect it. And based on your list, you've got people actually involved being killed...why not just kill the people the victims above were associated with? Seems "safer", and they apparently have no problem doing it to OTHER people in the case, more "sensational" people in the case. Why the inconsistency? Seems like it's just a chance to stack the list with people whose lives and deaths actually have nothing to do with the case.

5-
3/64 - Hank Killam - A house painter who lived at Mrs. A.C. Johnson's rooming house at the same time as Lee Harvey Oswald. His wife, Wanda, was a former Ruby employee. Though Killam was hounded by federal investigators after the assassination, all references to him were extripated from the Warren Report - Murder

-HSCA found his death to not be related to the assassiantion at all. There was nothing to extripate from the Warren Report because he wasn't in it in the first place because he didn't provide any information to the investigation. Of course he was "hounded"...he lived in the same house as the accused assassination. Once it was determined his contact and association with Oswald was minimal at best, there was nothing to actually put into the Report. If you'd actually researched Oswald, you'd find Oswald had essentially no contact with anyone else in the house except for the landlady. By your logic, people that don't know Oswald should be in the Warren Report. Once this is established, his death is moot since he has absolutely nothing to do with the case. He never indicated he had anything to say to anyone else around him. How does the "hit squad" know more about a person than his own family and friends? And again, why kill someone with NO information and let people who have nothing but information live?

6-
4/64 - Bill Hunter - One of the two reporters who met with George Senator and Dallas Attorney Tom Howard in Ruby's apartment the night Oswald was shot - Accidental shooting by policeman

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/death11.htm

7-
5/64 - Gary Underhill - CIA agent who accused the Agency of being behind the assassination - Self-inflicted gunshot to the head

Never was a CIA agent in any way, shape or form. He had been debriefed by the Agency's Domestic Contact Service, which debriefed American governm

[high fly]

There stands MOJO, like Rod fucking Laver, swatting back everything coming his way. He's damned near got me convinced.

I'm just too tired and rusty on the topic to really mix it up.

" and they ask me why I drink"

[Heavy]

Mix it up high fly, dont be scared of mojo and his govt fed bullshit. How hard is it for someone to make up info to debunk a theory?

This guy was murdered and he told friends beforehand he was going to the police with information about this guy being involved in the assasination

Mojos answer:
That guy had no information and a govt investigation says his murder had nothing to do with a cover up.

Well I'll be damned, Mo has proved me wrong again!

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A proportionate amount of props are equally distributed to my nigga's Fluff, Alexxis, CanOfSoup15, WWFallon and Katylina
HORDE KING FOREVER!!!
ORACLE NEVER!!!

[high fly]

You've got a point there, JOHNEE.
I'm reminded of a phrase my best friend used to use.
Back when I was waaaay out of control, in hot pursuit of decadence, action, and devoted to breaking as many laws as possible, we went by my parent's house.
We were visiting with my Mom and the sonofabitch just made up some story about me and a 15 year-old girl and finished nicely with the phrase: "And of course he'll deny the whole thing."


Ok, so let me throw out one more bit of evidence and get MOJO's comments-- the OTHER "pristine" bullet taken as evidence. I'm talking about the one that was found at Bethesda when they unwrapped the head of Kennedy.
We've got that one, the "pristine bullet", the one dug up in the grass, the one that hit the curb....

" and they ask me why I drink"




This message was edited by high fly on 11-29-03 @ 2:09 PM

[TheMojoPin]

There was only one actual bullet found, the not really-"pristine" bullet at Parkland.

Two large fragments were taken from Kennedy's head and were incorrectly marked on the autopsy receipt as a "missile". Given the number of mistakes and confusion at the autopsy, this hardly seems all that sinister, as that all the witnesses testify to the two fragments found. Look at Kennedy's head wound. How could a bullet be found in all that?

There was never any bullet found on the grass. The photos of this supposed finding are actually of local police recovering a large skull fragment from the president's head.

There was not a bullet found on, around or under the curb near the underpass. The bullet either ricocheted off towards God-knows-where or "splattered" on impact. Seeing as there weren't any fragments found neary the mark on the curb, the ricochet is the inevitable conclusion. The curb is still in the National Archives, photographs and analysis available for all to see and study.

johnee, you're CHOOSING not to believe the evidence and testimony I'm presenting. You don't actually have any of that for me to choose not to believe. You have theories, guesses and assumptions. You have nothing.

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 11-29-03 @ 2:28 PM

[high fly]

Yah, MOJO, I'm just counting bullets.
There was a bullet supposedly recovered at Bethesda. The story was that when they unrolled the head, it just rolled out, was given an evidence number, and then promptly disappeared. I don't think those who saw it described it as a fragment.
As for the bullet found in the grass, hte story I recall was that a cop standing on the overpass saw the round impact, made his way to the scene, pointed it out to cops there, and stood over the hole in the ground till the police chief came along and dug the bullet out.
You are right about there not being a bullet found that struck the curb and caused the guy to get wounded either by the bullet riccocheting or it knocking up a bit of concrete.
All I'm doing is counting bullets, because I don't think it possible for Oswald to get off all the shots that were fired.

" and they ask me why I drink"

[Heavy]

What has Wadd proved? I've proved you use nothing but information giving by people who want nothing more for the truth to stay hidden away. Wether there was a conspiracy or not, this is the information they would give us. Anybody has to recognize that. I have no choice but to discount all govt fed bullshit. Apparently youve taken the angle in this case of wanting "Fact", which are nothing but bullshit, to back up your theory whenever discussing this case. I have no other explanation for your inablility to see what put infront of you.

People plainly saw a bulletHOLE in the windshield.

People heard shots from the knoll.

Peoples cameras were taken away from them right after the shooting.

People saw at least 2 people in the window, and some even thougt they were secret servce agents.

A cop ran into a secret service agent that stopped him on the backside of the knoll when he went to were he heard shots came from. He was told to turn around and that nothing came from there. Of course he later lerned no sercret servic was in that area. "officially"

Finger prints of a convicted murderer were taken the day of the assasination from the snipers nest. Buried, forgotton about, and later claimed not to be a match, but they were a match

Oswald tells his wife if she want to live, not to say anything about anything, the morning of the assasination.

I could go on forever, but im sure your cover up site adresses all these and disconts them or "proves" them wrong


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A proportionate amount of props are equally distributed to my nigga's Fluff, Alexxis, CanOfSoup15, WWFallon and Katylina
HORDE KING FOREVER!!!
ORACLE NEVER!!!

This message was edited by johneewadd on 11-29-03 @ 3:03 PM

[TheMojoPin]

Three shots in nine seconds. That's all their were.

Once you search through the differing testimonies as to WHERE the shots came, the one thing you can't avoid, as I've posted twice in this thread, is that over 90% of the witnesses in Deally that day only heard three shots or less, regardless of where they originated from.

If you have a bullet on the grass, that means you have a fourth shot. If you think there's a shooter on the knoll (Or anywhere besides the depository), that means there were at least five. It doesn't work.

As for the bullet "rolling" out of the head, that's a long-told story that doesn't have a shred of proof. Nobody actually handling, working on, or observing the body, from Parkland to the hospital to the funeral home, saw this bullet. And again, whether you think the wound was in the front or the back or wherever, the type of wound makes it very clear that an intact bullet, fired from the front or the back, emerging from the head, is impossible. The explosion in Kennedy's head was caused by the bullet that entered it "splattering" as the pressure from the wound built up against Kennedy's skull. Shot from the front or back, what caused that wound would not leave an intact bullet. If a complete bullet was found, JFK would not have had a gaping wound in his head. Regardless of where you think the wound actually was on his head, every single witness that saw the final shot stated his head exploded. An intact bullet is obviously an impossibility.

The other problem with your story is that they "unrolled" Kennedy's head/body. This didn't happen. All of the testimony indicates the wrappings around his body were stuck to the body and had to be peeled free. The "whole bullet" story always describes the wrappings as being unwrapped "as if her were a mummy". This didn't happen. The details don't add up.

Again, no bullet in the grass.

Mysterious Bullet Found on the Infield in Dealey Plaza? (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/slug.htm)

The very police official described as finding the bullet never said he found a bullet. Plus, there are photographs from the day of the assassination of what was found.

Three shots in nine seconds.

Boom.

Boom.

Boom.

Done.

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[Heavy]

Its always a good idea to ignore a post when you have no answer for it

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=JohneeWadd">
A proportionate amount of props are equally distributed to my nigga's Fluff, Alexxis, CanOfSoup15, WWFallon and Katylina
HORDE KING FOREVER!!!
ORACLE NEVER!!!

[high fly]

Fuckin' like Rod fuckin' Laver.

While I am rusty on the topic, the part about the bullet found at Bethesda was in a book by that Lifton fella, who theorized a massive plot and all and had this bullet planted on the body...

9 seconds? Whoa, that doesn't seem right. I'm sure it's in the last 8 pages somewhere in this thread, and I'll try to find it.

Part of what leads me to think there were more than 3 shots is the acoustic examination of that tape from the radio that was inadvertantly left on.
I recall reading that there were, oh, 6 or 8 real loud sounds about the time of the shooting.
They concluded that 3 of them had a 90% probability of being gunshots, but a couple of others had a less, but still very high probability of being gunshots, like 80 or 85 %.
I wish I could be more exact, but this is from the top of my head and it's been years since I really got into this...

Even though I'm not sold yet, I think MOJO's ready to host a tv special on this.




"Bartender! Down here! Double shot of Bushmill's, please.
"Neat.
"Fuggit. Just leave the bottle."


"...and they ask me why I drink."

This message was edited by high fly on 11-29-03 @ 3:40 PM

[TheMojoPin]

What was Wadd proved? I've proved you use nothing but information giving by people who want nothing more for the truth to stay hidden away.

How have you "proved" this? Again, you've presented theories, guesses and assumptions, not proof, testimony or evidence.

Wether there was a conspiracy or not, this is the information they would give us. Anybody has to recognize that.

What the hell does that first sentence even mean? If there wasn't a conspiracy, why would the investigators still be "making up" evidence and engaging in a cover-up? And of COURSE this is the information "given to us." How is that different from any other criminal investigation? We're not all firsthand witnesses or participants. We rely on professional investigators to solve these crimes for us. We base our entire justice system on this process. Yet again and again and again you aren't willing to apply these procedures and tactics to the Kennedy murder SIMPLY BECAUSE YOU DON'T WANT TO. The only way you've been able to dismiss everything I've said is to claim all of the witnesses, evidence, studies, tests and reports I've presented of all being faked for the sake of the conspiracists. You've not even looked at the Warren Report. You've not researched the House Select Committee on Assassinations findings. I highly doubt you've read any of the pages I've linked outside of passing glances. You cleary have no idea of the MOUNTAIN of evidence that discounts whichever theory your pitching today (You DO realize how stupid it looks to be typically pitching half a dozen theories at once, most of which contradict each other, right) and how ludicrously stupid it is to think that EVERYTHING that pins Oswald as the lone gunman has been made up or altered or faked or whatever the hell you're believing today. USE COMMON SENSE.

I have no choice but to discount all govt fed bullshit.

No, you DO have a choice, and you're choosing to be closeminded about any idea at all that supports the lone gunman theory. You're actually deluding yourself into ignoring everything that proves you wrong. Hey, if you don't address it, it doesn't exist, right?

Apparently youve taken the angle in this case of wanting "Fact", which are nothing but bullshit, to back up your theory whenever discussing this case.

Again, you're choosing to dismiss everything that supports a non-conspiracy angle, which is the MAJORITY OF THE CASE'S EVIDENCE. Who in God's name focuses on the clear and obvious incorrect minority in a criminal investigation? By your way of thinking, everyone in jail now is innocent of whatever crime they supposedly committed.

I have no other explanation for your inablility to see what put infront of you.

Except that I've studied this subject for more than 10 years now. I've run the length and been to where you were. The conspiracy theories don't hold up under any kind of legitimate investigation. They're inconsistent, contradictory to each other, and too quick to believe anyone and anything that MIGHT support their findings. These are not actual investigations. These people twisting and distorting REAL information. For all your talk of cover-up, conspiracy theorists sure show little remorse in choosing to present massive amounts of disinformation.

People plainly saw a bullet in the windshield.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/limo.htm

People THOUGHT they saw a bullet in the windshield in the brief minutes it was parked outside of the hospital. I showed you the photo. To someone trying to look at the car or seeing it very quickly, it does indeed look like a bullet hole. I woudl have thought it was a bullet hole. IT'S NOT A BULLET HOLE. Why do you give more credit to split-second testimony by several people in the heat of the moment than to the actual analysis of the car itself? NO WITNESS IS 100% CORRECT. NOT EVEN THE ONES THAT SUPPORT THE LONE GUNMAN THEORY. For you, people that support your line of thinking are incapab

[high fly]

Lookit him go!
Tennis racket in each hand!
Shit!

MOJO, yeah, while many said they heard shots from the supposit, er, depository, still there were quite a few that heard shots from the knoll and smelled gunpowder up there, one of which was a Marine combat vet.
I recall there was about 20 people at the scene that heard the shots from the knoll.
People right there headed straight for the knoll.
I cannot so easily dismiss their reactions.

" and they ask me why I drink"

[TheMojoPin]

While I am rusty on the topic, the part about the bullet found at Bethesda was in a book by that Lifton fella, who theorized a massive plot and all and had this bullet planted on the body...

Lifton is a joke. And I'm not saying this to bash all conspiracy theorists. There are really smart conspiracy supporters out there like Mark Lane and David Mack that expose Lifton for the piker he is. Lifton, if you're not familiar, is the champion of the much-ridiculed (By the conspiracy community, no less) theory that JFK's body was switched and altered between when it left Dallas and arrived for the autopsy. His book, "Best Evidence", was one of the first I read when I got into this stuff, and even when I was convinced of a conspiracy it was obvious this guy is out of his gourd.

David Lifton's Kennedy Assassination Body Snatching/Body Alteration Theory (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/b_snatch.htm)

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/lifton.txt

9 seconds? Whoa, that doesn't seem right. I'm sure it's in the last 8 pages somewhere in this thread, and I'll try to find it.[quote]

Just shy of nine seconds. For about ten years now, the general consensus is that the first was fired BEFORE Kennedy's car went behind the road sign, as you can see Kennedy himself and people in the crowd reacting to what appears to be a sudden noise behind them. This gives Oswald just under nine seconds to pull off the shots he is accused of.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/looking.htm

[quote]Part of what leads me to think there were more than 3 shots is the acoustic examination of that tape from the radio that was inadvertantly left on.
I recall reading that there were, oh, 6 or 8 real loud sounds about the time of the shooting.
They concluded that 3 of them had a 90% probability of being gunshots, but a couple of others had a less, but still very high probability of being gunshots, like 80 or 85 %.

4 loud noises, actually. It was this tape that made the HSCA in the 70's conclude there "probably" was a second gunman on the knoll that fired once and missed. It has since been determined (For almost ten years now) that the microphone was actually left on AFTER the assassination and the motorcycle it was on was out of Dealey Plaza.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/acoustic.htm

I wish I could be more exact, but this is from the top of my head and it's been years since I really got into this...

It'll always be a fascinating subject, and I love it when new theories come out. I'll fully admit, if I was proven wrong, I'd be wrong. A part of me almost wishes I was just so it could be even MORE interesting. Ah well, time will tell. Should there be a new official inquiry into the assassination? Would people like wadd accept its findings? He and his kind ignore the government's info at this point, why would that be any different? They clamor for the "classified info" to be released, millions of documents and pieces of evidence are, and they ignore them off the bat because they prove them wrong. What's the point of trying with these people?

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 7-27-04 @ 5:10 PM

[TheMojoPin]

MOJO, yeah, while many said they heard shots from the supposit, er, depository, still there were quite a few that heard shots from the knoll and smelled gunpowder up there, one of which was a Marine combat vet.
I recall there was about 20 people at the scene that heard the shots from the knoll.
People right there headed straight for the knoll.
I cannot so easily dismiss their reactions.

And you shouldn't. The way it's presented, these people surged up the hill almost immediately after the third shot was fired. Once you actually look past this presented assumption at the actual timeline of events do you realize what actually happened.

NOBODY ran up the knoll for over a minute after the last shot, and this rush was triggered by motorcycle policeman Clyde Haygood parking his cycle and running up the hill with his gun drawn to confer with another policeman on the railbridge and secure the area. People around him very naturally assumed from his action that he was chasing someone up the hill and ran after him. Haygood's idling motorcycle actually provided the exhaust fumes lingering over the knoll that many mistook for "rifle smoke" (Nevermind most rifles had been smokeless since the Civil War).

"Smoke" on the Grassy Knoll (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/organ3.htm)

The combat vet you brought up is no doubt Gordon Arnold. To say his story is questionable is being generous. I'll let you decide.

Nowhere Man: The Strange Story of Gordon Arnold (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/arnold1.htm)

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[TheMojoPin]

And just because I like it, this quote very excellently explains why someone like wadd will never be satisfied with the truth.

The HSCA addressed many of the issues raised by the critics in the sixties. Since then, the literature has taken on a disturbing tone -- one that rejects any piece of evidence contrary to findings of conspiracy.[4] If the autopsy X-rays and photos show evidence of a single head- shot from the rear, well, they must be fakes. [5] If the wounds on Kennedy's body are consistent with a single-gunman, well, the body must have been altered. [6] If the neutron activation analysis shows the single- bullet theory to be correct, well, the evidence has been tampered with. [7] And, if you do not like the conclusions of a professional panel, well, they must have ties to the government. [8] One could go on and on. This is extremely dangerous. This development is exactly opposite to the legitimate process of theory-building and testing. In the clash between evidence and theories, theories have to be discarded. It's true that evidence is often weak and open to multiple interpretations, but to argue that evidence is fraudulent is to undermine the possibility that any theory might turn out to be "true". . . To argue in such a style is to cause the collapse of the entire empirical edifice of assassinology. However weak, evidence could at least refute theories; now the evidence can't even do that.[9]

A Conspiracy Too Big? Intellectual Dishonesty in the JFK Assassination (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/toobig.htm)

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[high fly]

He's just toying with us now....

" and they ask me why I drink"

[TheMojoPin]

"They were all in love with dying/They were doing it in Texas..."

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[Heavy]

And of COURSE this is the information "given to us." How is that different from any other criminal investigation?

Well most dont have witnesses stories being changed or ingorned if they dont fit the picture they want it to fit. Consider writing on a story on a subject and then you read it the next day in the paper, only extra lines are added, numbers are changed, and key points are taken out. When you ask the boss what happened, he tells you the FBI reviewed it and made changes and that you should not push the issue, to put it lightly



Again, you're choosing to dismiss everything that supports a non-conspiracy angle, which is the MAJORITY OF THE CASE'S EVIDENCE

Again you're choosing to dismiss the fact that the MAJORITY OF THE CASE'S EVIDENCE would be exactly what it is if a conspiracy was being covered up



I've run the length and been to where you were. The conspiracy theories don't hold up under any kind of legitimate investigation.

Right Mo, but if the investigating organizations are covering it up, how the fuck do you get a legitimate investigation?



People THOUGHT they saw a bullet in the windshield

They were right. I saw a bullet hole. No you didnt. Oh ok I was wrong then. Please. The people saw the frigging hole and were pushed away and told that it wasnt a hole. they drove the friggin car out of there like maniacs scaring the shit out of the nice ladies. the guy that removed and destroyed it couldnt get over the fact that there was a bullet hole in the fucking front window. A nice perfectly round hole as he described it. he was ordered several times to destroy the window immediatly



Yet the most important footage (The films of Zapruder and Orville Nix, and the still photo taken by Mary Moorman at the moment of the fatal shot) were never touched. Zapruder was supposedly mere feet away from where "fake secret service agents/policemen/FBI agents" were taking people's cameras, yet he is never approached? The various photos and footage of the Plaza has allowed investigators to identify all known people with cameras there that day. None of them had footage or cameras taken. The only people who claim such cannot be verified as having even had a camera with them that day. How nice and convenient. Again, you give the conspiracy so much credit and powerful, yet then you allow them to easily screw up their own cover-up by not taking the most important and graphic footage of the assassination.

Oh my bad, i didnt realize there was an official investigation into this matter. Its gotta be true to, because they would most def out the Agents and SS that were taking the cams. Why did Zapruder get away with his cam? WHo knows. Maybe he was sneaky. And how do you know these are "the most important footage" taken? For all you know the other ones couldve had guys with rifles blocking their view of the pres. WAKE UP



This has long ago been established as people looking into the FIFTH floor of the Depository, and seeing two of three workers watching the motorcade out the window. Here's how these witnesses hold up.

Bullshit. The people I'm speaking of noticed 2 men, possibly secret service and then noticed it as the same window after the shots were fired. And apparently Oswald was firing a cannon? Why the fuck would his shots cause concrete dust to fall off of anything? And if theyre doing finishing work on a floor, why the fuck is there even concrete dust i the first place?



he ASSUMED the guy was SS.

Youd assume it too if he identified himself as such and showed proper ID.



There were deputized federal agents in Dealey that day, and on the knoll, as was standard practice in the day to act as security for the president, and the agent in question here has most likely been identified long ago

Hey maybe this cop was dumb and it was one of these guys. Even if so, whoever it was turned him around after a group of people told

[TheMojoPin]

We're done here. We're arguing the same points over and over again. This last post of yours does what you've insanely accused me of time and time again...it says absolutely nothing. Post your sources, ass, and stop looking like a joke. I've presented my evidence and sources. People can make of them as they wish. You've presented next to nothing. If that's your case, so be it. I'm just getting exhausted doing this day in and day out. I'm punching out. I'm backing everything I said in this thread and nobody has proven anything to the contrary except defy the common logic of a criminal investigation for the sake of unproven and outlandish paranoia.

If so many people are hiding the "true story", why don't they come out and support whatever conspiracy theory backs what they really know? I'm assuming you think at least ONE of the theories is right (Even though you've yet to clarify which one), right? If one of these people came out and said, "I can support THIS theory, here's my story" and they tell it to the public, wouldn't they be safe? Then if they turned up dead or vanished or whatever the hell you think is happening to these people the idea of a cover-up "hit squad" would be exposed...right? Yet this doesn't happen. Why not? They way you talk, there are people left and right by the hundreds who know the "real story". Yet all of the so-called "revelations" that have come out rarely can co-exist with each other logically. Somebody is lying. Not all of these revelations are true. Yet you except every single one, despite the fact they don't fit together. Maybe there IS a conspiracy...but how are you going to figure out what it is if you can't even decide on what you're looking for? You've got sources that lead up to more than 4 shooters, at least 8 shots, and a behind the scenes cast of thousands. Are you even listening to yourself? Until you attempt some kind of logical consistency or have some kind of unifying theory, we're arguing on two completely different levels. I have a set conclusion...Oswald was the lone shooter. He fired three shots in under nine seconds, causing all the wounds in the presidential car. You have...what? At least lay out what you're trying to prove, and then maybe we can keep going. Until then, this is pointless.

And I hate you. I hope the conspiracy is real just so it can shut you the fuck up. Oh, right, they apparently don't kill the brave conspiracy researchers exposing them. That makes sense.

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Heavy]

I hate you too.





If so many people are hiding the "true story", why don't they come out and support whatever conspiracy theory backs what they really know?


How many books have been written?

Youre an awful, awful person. Pay attention PLEASE:



I'm assuming you think at least ONE of the theories is right (Even though you've yet to clarify which one), right?

Read the opening post of this thread.

The only thing youve proved me guilty of is not taking the time to re-post links. I dont spend as much time at this as you do. I know I'm right, I dont need to constantly re-assure myself of it.

ANyway lets assume my theory is wrong. One thing I'm positive of is that SOMETHING more then admitted went one. I'm starting to think you got confuse and coulnt put your finger on which theory is correct, so you took the simple Lone gunman bullshit story which conveniently can be backed bt offial "proof".

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[TheMojoPin]

On second thought, I'll keep this open for anyone down the line who may want to add to it.

That being said, the namecalling both wadd and myself pulled out at the end is unacceptable and will not be tolerated or allowed from here on out.

And I stand by everything I posted here. I'll post again if I feel I must, but I'm presenting wadd with an open offer to challenge anything I've presented through PM or IM. It's just too exhausting and time consuming to do this time and time again this way.

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 11-30-03 @ 9:17 PM

[Heavy]

Fair enough. it is of course immpossible to convince me this is as simple as the govt wants us to believe. if there was a cover up, the very people launching investigations would be the ones covering it up in the first place! With this being said, i can not understand how ANYBODY, let alone %30 of the public could believe the "official" story

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[newport king]

whether you believe a conspiracy or not you have to admit all that shit being not available to the public for another 60 years is a little fishy.

~another newport king joint~

[TheMojoPin]

if there was a cover up, the very people launching investigations would be the ones covering it up in the first place!

Then how can you hope for the case to ever be "really" solved? Unless there's an OFFICIAL government investigation, how do you change the OFFICIAL conclusion? Under what circumstances would you finally accept an official government inquiry into the assassination?

Let's say your "Mafia Kingfish" theory is the truth behind everything that happened. Pretty much all of the key people supposedly involved are now dead and can't defend themselves. How do you know that a new government investigation wouldn't just take advantage of this and present a case that blames Marcello and co., thusly taking the blame away from themselves?

You're willing to apparently believe that the government (Or whoever) conspirators have the power to intimidate, trick and kill hundreds of people directly involved in the case, manipulate Oswald for the last ten years of his life and destroy or alter thousands of pieces of evidence related to the case. What's to stop them from doing that again just to throw you conspiracy theorists off of their backs and make the public think someone else was responsible?

whether you believe a conspiracy or not you have to admit all that shit being not available to the public for another 60 years is a little fishy.

30, actually.

Contrary to popular belief, 98% of the information and documents pertaining to the Warren Report had been released and declassified by 1992. The rest were released within two years. The JFK Review Board then started reviewing the remaining classified documents, mostly from the House Select Committee on Assassinations that was run in the 1970's. Over three million documents have since been declassified and relased, the bulk of the information. This includes local law enforcement files from both Dallas and New Orleans. There's very little, if anything, left to declassify. Even if there were, it's standard practice to secure and classify any high level government organization's information for at least 50 years. The CIA classifies it's office supply orders, for God's sake. Everday government red tape is rarely seen as this sinister.

I'll never understand why so many conspiracists still clamour for this supposedly "locked away" info when they've essentially dismissed the millions of documents already released since none of them prove what they WANT to believe. Why even bother releasing the rest?

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 11-30-03 @ 9:41 PM

[Heavy]

Well nobodies on their backs anymore. I dont know what i would belive if they changed the story tomorrow. I have no way to know if i would believe the new story or not. I just know i dont believe his one.

And Newport, what info you got on these classified documents?

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[TheMojoPin]

what info you got on these classified documents?

Here's a quick primer:

Suppressed investigative files (http://www.jfk-online.com/jfk100files.html)

And here's a couple of pages that go into great detail about what's available and the declassification process:

Assassination Records Review Board (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/arrb/index.htm)

President Kennedy Records Collection at The National Archives (http://www.archives.gov/research_room/jfk/index.html)

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Heavy]

Well the first link is to the movie site, so I wont be reading that, but the 2nd link provides some info. MOST of the links provided on that page to documents are inactive, but i found one that works. Heres the main message it sends:



According to our source, officials of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union believed there was some well-organized conspiracy on the part of the "ultraright" in the United States to effect a "coup." They seemed convinced that the assassination was not the deed of one man, but that it rose out of a carefully planned campaign in which several people played a part. They felt those elements interested in utilizing the assassination and playing on anticommunist sentiments in the United States would then utilize this act to stop negotiations with the Soviet Union, attack Cuba and thereafter spread the war. As a result of these feelings, the Soviet Union immediately went into a state of national alert.


it goes on with more here. (http://www.indiana.edu/~oah/nl/98feb/jfk.html#d1)
Also there many witnesses listed that are speaking of files MISSING that they were looking forward to seeing when they had all these new documents to go through.

I'm not sure what the reason for the 3rd link is.

Once again I ask Newport, What documents are you talking about?

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[Yerdaddy]

http://www.lib.washington.edu/specialcoll/klondike/dead.jpg

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TEAR THE BITCH APART!

[A.J.]

This thread has now lasted longer than the Kennedy Administration did.

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[TheMojoPin]

Well the first link is to the movie site, so I wont be reading that

Why not?

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[mikeyboy]

I have a policy. I won't read any thread about the Kennedy Assassination that takes more time to read than it does to watch Oliver Stone's "JFK".

Anyway, I agree with Mojo, but only because he's not Wadd.

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[East Side Dave]

I sometimes wish we were still in that era. It was a more innocent time. A handsome president, Jack Kennedy, in the White House. And the woman he loved, Jamie Kennedy, on his arm.

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[TheMojoPin]

And the legion of women he banged everywhere else.

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[East Side Dave]

I betcha Ted Kennedy can hold his breath for a long time.

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[TheMojoPin]

I betcha Ted Kennedy has to sleep sitting up, least his giant head closes off his throat and he suffocates in his sleep, much like the Elephant Man.

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[East Side Dave]

I betcha me and the Elephant Man could give you and Ted Kennedy one heck of a potato-sack race, Mojo.

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This message was edited by East Side Dave on 12-1-03 @ 12:56 PM

[TheMojoPin]

I betcha you'd have to wrassle Jacko for those bones.

Better get Emilio Estevez to tape up them cheeks.

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[East Side Dave]

Done and done, mister. RonFez.net Potato Sack Race- January 32nd.

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[mikeyboy]

You can untape the cheeks until then.

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[Heavy]

Why not?

Because its chock full o' bullshit

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[TheMojoPin]

You're getting it confused with the movie it's debunking.

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[high fly]

fuckin' Rod fuckin' La-fuckin'-ver fuckin' fuck did-ee fuck fuck.

Fuckin' fucker.


(edit) fuck-im.

" and they ask me why I drink"

This message was edited by high fly on 12-1-03 @ 2:50 PM

[TheMojoPin]

"Don't make me go Godzilla on yo' ass."

http://www.societacivile.it/img/foto/foto_previ/perry2.jpg

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[high fly]

Fuckit.

Now I'm thinking more like a fuckin' siamese fuckin' twin Rod Laver, with fuckin' 4 tennis fuckin' rackets and blindfolds on, just steady swatting them back, occasionally raising a racket to one of his his mouths, stifling a yawn....

" and they ask me why I drink"






This message was edited by high fly on 12-1-03 @ 4:02 PM

[Heavy]

You're getting it confused with the movie it's debunking.

Its debunks nothing.

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HORDE KING FOREVER!!!
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[TheMojoPin]

Except for everything.

Do you look like one of those bobblehead things while watching "JFK"?

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Heavy]

You type as if I watch that movie everyday.

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[TheMojoPin]

You're watching it right now.

And you forgot your pants.

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Heavy]

I'm watching:
______________

Adult Stars Close Up:
Introducing "Raylene"

And I have my pants on

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This message was edited by johneewadd on 12-3-03 @ 12:59 AM

[mikeyboy]

As a mod, do I have the power to change this thread title to "New Sitcom on UPN - Mojo & Wadd"?


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[Heavy]

Whys it gotta be UPN?

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[mikeyboy]

Do you think one of the Big 3 (or Fox) would put this on?


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This message was edited by mikeyboy on 12-3-03 @ 1:55 PM

[Heavy]

Why do you think UPN would put it on, but others wouldnt?

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[mikeyboy]

They probably wouldn't either.

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[TheMojoPin]

Because given their horrible and evil record for showing all things Star Trek, pro wrestling, "Shasta McNasty" and "Homeboys In Outter Space", it's painfully clear UPN will put ANYTHING on the air.

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[high fly]

Can we start all over or somethin'?

" and they ask me why I drink"

[Heavy]

Do you think there was a Ferrie - Oswald connection

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[Bill From Yorktown]

c'mon, everyone knows that he was killed by the Cigarette Smoking Man, because he knew the moon landing was going to be a fake. Duh.

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[TheMojoPin]

I totally shouldn't have thrown out my "Kennedy Thing" memo when I worked for the Agency.

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[Heavy]

I dont think you had much choice *nudge*

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[TheMojoPin]

johnee, let's go have a picnic on the knoll.

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[Heavy]

Sure, just dont bring a camera if you like it.

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[dano1]

My first post and MOST 'sheeple' in this forum that have followed this thread will probably SHOOT ME!!! But anyway... I got to this website via a search on yahoo. This is what I typed in the YAHOO SE:
" Did the driver of JFKs limo shoot him?" and the rest they say is history... My actual point for this post is that after reading the majority of this topic and doing a TEXT search "THE DRIVER" question was ONLY mentioned ONCE!!!!

Have ANY of the posters in here re; HF, jwadd, MOJO, etc etc etc.... actually seen and WATCHED the original (NON CROPPED by the FEDS) Z'film?

IF NOT......Take the time (again) ;) and look closely, I KNOW its tuff to see past the blurieness<??, but one can clearly see SMOKE arising off the drivers RIGHT SHOULDER!!!

POINT 2* Why such big gaps between SS vehicles at the frnt and the rear of the PRESIDENTIAL limo?

POINT3* Look closER and see the PRESIDENTIAL limo SLOw down instead of speeding away initianally!<??

POINT4* If ONE of us had the EXACT rifle and SCOPE setup that LHO 'supposedly' used, the subsquint 2nd and 3rd shot could NOT have been fired because the scope IS in the way of the charging handle. (bolt) The bolt on that rifle cannot lift cleanly enuf to clear the 'block' in rotation to be able to be drawn backward, enabling the 2nd round of ammo to be picked up, and charged into the breech of said rifle.

As far as the head and body movements after being HIT with 'flying lead', it is said that JFK was wearing a 'backbrace'???? Either way, watch an animal (elk, bear, lion, deer etc etc) get HIT by a shot from a HIGH powered rifle/pistol (weapon) and then compare that with a shot NOT from a high powered weapon!

Thats all for now... I'll chk back later!

Was/is this TOO much for a 'first post'????

have a SAFE and happy nEwYeaR burp! ;)

This message was edited by dano1 on 12-27-03 @ 1:22 AM

[Furtherman]

Was/is this TOO much for a 'first post'????


I don't know... something about a driver?

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This message was edited by Furtherman on 12-27-03 @ 1:37 AM

[reeshy]

I drove for John Gotti once!!!!!

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It's not censorship because people can't come here and post/say whatever they want in the first place.

[DJEvelEd]

I got to this website via a search on yahoo. This is what I typed in the YAHOO SE:
" Did the driver of JFKs limo shoot him?" and the rest they say is history...

That's funny because I found RonFez.net by doing a Google search for "Vagina Bloodfarts"

Small world.

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This message was edited by DJEvelEd on 12-27-03 @ 11:44 AM

[high fly]

I don't know...something about a driver


I believe it was a 3 wood...


Look at Mojo wearily reaching for his tennis racket....

" and they ask me why I drink"

[A.J.]

This thread still live? CHOP CHOP!

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[TheMojoPin]

Just wanted to add a little something on to all this that possibly backs up my thinking that all the shots came from behind, including the head shot.

The link below takes you to a "stabilized" view of the Zapruder film footage of the head shot that killed JFK. The original film is rather bouncy as that Zapruder shot it while panning along with the car and jumped with each of the shots. This version has taken the stretch of film where the car was almost directly in front of Zapruder, and so it lends itself most easily to "stabilization", ie-"straightening" out the footage so it appears to not be bouncing around thanks to normal human reaction.

This is NOT "high science" or analysis by any means. I simply found it an interesting viewing. I don't present it as infallible or as concrete proof.

This version, I feel, clearly shows Kennedy's head violently moving FORWARD before blowing back. It also clearly shows the blood and brain matter from his head blasting FORWARD when it first explodes out. The film seems to also show, to me, that there is no damage to the back of his head at all from any sort of exit wound that would indicate a shooter from the front.

"Stabilized" Zapruder footage ****VERY GRAPHIC**** (http://www.jfkmurdersolved.com/film/Zapruderstable.mov)

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