National Health Care Debate

[TooLowBrow]

Of course everything is bankrupt. You and your entire generation of baby boomers have ruined everything, ya greedy pricks.

i blame their parents


ya couldnt keep your dicks in your pants after the war!?!?

[TheMojoPin]

Who wants to bet that within 10 years the National Health Care "lock box" will have been raided and we'll be even deeper in debt?

What do you care? Death's hand is on your shoulder and you'll be lucky to live out the year.

[Gvac]

What do you care? Death's hand is on your shoulder and you'll be lucky to live out the year.

You have to give me your real name one of these days so I can piss on your grave when you're gone.

You KNOW I'll outlive you.

[epo]

What do you care? Death's hand is on your shoulder and you'll be lucky to live out the year.

He'll unfortunately never see another new hat.

[TheMojoPin]

You have to give me your real name one of these days so I can piss on your grave when you're gone.

You KNOW I'll outlive you.

Settle down and pop another nitro pill.

[Gvac]

Khrushchev was right.

Khrushchev said in reference to capitalism, "Мы вас похороним!" (My vas pokhoronim!), translated to "We will bury you". This phrase, ambiguous both in the English language and in the Russian language, was interpreted in several ways. Later, he would refer back to the comment and state, "I once got in trouble for saying, 'We will bury you'. Of course, we will not bury you with a shovel. Your own working class will bury you".

[Bob Impact]

Who wants to bet that within 10 years the National Health Care "lock box" will have been raided and we'll be even deeper in debt?

I would be shocked if we even made it 10 years.

[IMSlacker]

Who wants to bet that within 10 years the National Health Care "lock box" will have been raided and we'll be even deeper in debt?

The social security "lock box" was an Al Gore thing. Unfortunately, the supreme court decided not to elect him.

[The Jays]

Oh man, check out this retard.

http://crooksandliars.com/logan-murphy/hardball-town-hall-protester-exposed

[angrymissy]

Or you don't really trust the government. Personally, I don't feel that the government or private insurers are looking out for us. But to be completely honest, I'm throwing my weight with the private sector on this.

Have you ever even carried your own, private insurance?

[Doogie]

Holy shit, if I have to see "poor people are covered, they have medicare and urgent care centers" one more time, my head will explode.

This is what we're supposed to be fucking satisfied with? Shitty fucking doc-in-the-boxes that give out free samples of medicine. This is the other side's idea of "the greatest healthcare system in the world." It's fucking mind boggling.

You know what was great? When Jon Stewart got Bill Kristol to admit that the VA health system was great, therefore, an example of a high quality health care system run by the government. But then, Kristol went and said, well, veterans deserve it, the rest of America doesn't. It's fucked up.

These fucking town halls are a joke because of the protesters. Instead of participating in democracy, instead of having order and proving input in a civil and organized manner, they show up and shout down any other voice that isn't about "HEALTHCARE WILL KILL YOUR GRANDPARENTS AND OUR FUTURE BABIES, AND WE'LL ALL BE DEAD AND BROKE." Seriously, that shit IS un-American... in America, we're supposed to have debate, discuss opposing viewpoints. In America, we are not mob ruled. In America, the voice that is the loudest is not suppose to be the only voice heard. In America, votes are won by the majority. When the majority is civil and calm and orderly, it becomes un-American when the retards turn off Fox News before they leave the house to go to the town hall meeting and parrot back everything they've heard from the lunatic pundits. That's why it's not grassroots. Grassroots implies that people talk to one another, form opinions, plot out paths and courses of action, enact change they feel is progressive and positive. These plants are fed bullshit Miracle Gro, a nice conservative dosing only meant to ensure that the people on top stay on top, and the people in the middle join the people already on the bottom. They'll be one surgery away, one cancer treatment away from being broke and in debt and having their credit turned to shit when they go bankrupt. That's what the right endorses, a big fuck you to everyone who can't get the good healthcare from work or even by paying for it.

See my new post.

[HBox]

Oh man, check out this retard.

http://crooksandliars.com/logan-murphy/hardball-town-hall-protester-exposed

She was also on Fox News and admitted that she wasn't even paying attention to when Specter responded to her.

They of course saw no problem with this.

It was difficult watching that though. She was in over her head, she didn't have fully formulated thoughts about what she thinks and she shouldn't have ever been on the air. I wish the media would instead bring on experts to explain why these people are wrong, or where they might be right, or where the Congressmen might be making false claims. I've had enough of bringing these idiots on the air to humiliate them in this case or to pat them on the back in Fox's case. It's like being incredibly ignorant is a one-way express ticket to the air. I'm not at all surprised anymore but it is depressing.

[HBox]

So myself and other vets who paid our dues to God, king and country dont deserve health care?? Fuck you...Fuck you sir. I paid my dues to the nation. I went through boot camp. I went and served overseas. I did time in Korea and other zones.. Dont EVER think about attacking vets again.

Where did you get the idea he was attacking veterans?!

[Dude!]

So myself and other vets who paid our dues to God, king and country dont deserve health care?? Fuck you...Fuck you sir. I paid my dues to the nation. I went through boot camp. I went and served overseas. I did time in Korea and other zones.. Dont EVER think about attacking vets again.

um, read his post again
he did not attack vets at all

[TheMojoPin]

So myself and other vets who paid our dues to God, king and country dont deserve health care?? Fuck you...Fuck you sir. I paid my dues to the nation. I went through boot camp. I went and served overseas. I did time in Korea and other zones.. Dont EVER think about attacking vets again.

How the hell did you possibly take the idea that he was attacking veterans from his post?

[Dude!]

How the hell did you possibly take the idea that he was attacking veterans from his post?

the two posts above yours
weren't enough?

[Doogie]

Ok...I may have of over-reacted a bit.

But I want it on record that when we visit VA centers you usually need to have some sort of private insurance in order to receive care. B, any vet that served is entitled to yearly checkups by VA as well as reductions for medicines and eyeglasses. Yet you still need to have some sort of private insurance. The VA is run well and I have no complaints. I have my own private doc, but I like to use the VA center from time to time for some minor things.

We dont view private citizens as pieces of garbage and many vets DON'T take advantage of the benefits that are set up for them cause they dont know they are entitled to em. Guys who are uninsured can get coverage for up to three years from time of discharge and first time they go to a VA center. Some guys never visit a VA center till later in their lives.

[The Jays]

So myself and other vets who paid our dues to God, king and country dont deserve health care?? Fuck you...Fuck you sir. I paid my dues to the nation. I went through boot camp. I went and served overseas. I did time in Korea and other zones.. Dont EVER think about attacking vets again.

Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa... let me get out the jump to conclusions mat for you.

In no way am I trying to attack veterans in any way, and I cannot fathom how you get from me talking about Bill Kristol saying that the VA is a well run form of government funded healthcare to me somehow denigrating yours or others service. Both parents served in Vietnam, my brother served in Bosnia. I myself am all for our servicemen. I truely do not get how you infered from my post where I mention how Bill Kristol says in the Jon Stewart interview that the government CAN fund a successful health care system and then dismisses the thought of any public option for the American people.

I'm sorry, I must have missed where pointing out the contradictions of conservative pundits = me saying "fuck you to all servicemen," how it somehow equals an attack (??!!??) on veterans.

[Dude!]

48 years ago:

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[Syd]

Or you don't really trust the government. Personally, I don't feel that the government or private insurers are looking out for us. But to be completely honest, I'm throwing my weight with the private sector on this.

Small Biz Purging: When Companies Lose Health Care
When a worker at a small business becomes gravely ill, insurance providers often later dump the company, a practice reforms may not address

By Joshua Kendall
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http://images.businessweek.com/story/09/370/0807_insurers.jpg

Purging: It's an ugly word, and it describes an ugly practice. But Wendell Potter, formerly the director of media relations for CIGNA (CI), says that's exactly what health-insurance companies do when an employee at a small business is unexpectedly hit with a sudden, and expensive, illness: The insurance company "purges" the small company from their rolls.

In June testimony before U.S. Senate Committee on Commerce, Science & Transportation, Potter said health-insurance companies "dump small businesses whose employees' medical claims exceed what insurance underwriters expected. All it takes is one illness or accident among employees at a small business to prompt an insurance company to hike the next year's premiums so high that the employer has to cut benefits, shop for another carrier, or stop offering coverage altogether—leaving workers uninsured. The practice is known in the industry as purging."

Statements from Potter's former boss, CIGNA President David Cordani, bear out Potter's testimony. In a February conference call with analysts, Cordani said: "In 2008 we were essentially actively decreasing our posture in several markets, particularly the under-50 book of business. You could use the term 'purge' if you'd like. You could also use the term 'hard harvests' or 'soft exits.'"

While the practice of intentionally making health insurance unaffordable for a small company may seem shocking, Len Nichols, a health policy analyst at the Washington nonpartisan think tank New America Foundation, isn't surprised in the least. Of purging, he says, "It's always gone on. It's the way business is conducted."
Requoting Time

When asked to comment on Cordani's statement, spokesperson Christopher Curran said that for small employers, "rates are often based on claims experience. While we try to work with all our customers, when medical costs are higher than premiums, we may need to requote."

Senator John D. ("Jay") Rockefeller IV (D-W. Va.) thinks there may be more to it than that. On Aug. 5, Rockefeller sent a letter to CIGNA Chairman and CEO E. Edward Hanway requesting an explanation of Cordani's use of the word "purging" in the conference call, as well as the specific methods the company used to "decrease its posture" in the small business market and how much money it saved by doing so. Rockefeller has requested that CIGNA respond by Aug. 19.

Joy Mosley, the chief operating officer of Biotest Laboratories, a medical testing company in Minneapolis, is one business owner whose premiums were recently "requoted" by her insurer, Medica. Two years ago, in an effort to keep premiums down for her 77-person company, she turned to a high-deductible plan, coupled with a Health Savings Account (HSA), which saved her company about 20% on health-insurance costs. But then an employee was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. Medica, the firm's health insurer, covered the million-dollar treatment, but the following year, it requested nearly $200,000 in additional premiums—an increase of 70%. "I felt angry that the health-care system left us unprotected," says Mosley. Larry Bussey, a spokesperson for Medica, says, "We don't purge. We try to keep our customers." Still, Mosley is terrified about the prospect of opening next year's renewal letter. "We can't afford another exorbitant increase," she says.

Not all entrepreneurs are equally vulnerable to the whims of insurers. In about a dozen states, where some form of "community-rating" prevails, regulations prohibit insurance companies from setting premiums for firms with 50 or fewer employees based on workers' health status, forcing insurers to spread risk among their smaller accounts. But in roughly three-fourths of the country, "rating bands" allow for considerable flexibility in pricing. In states with "loose rating bands," such as Texas and Nevada, one small firm can be charged nearly 70% more than another. Moreover, in Pennsylvania and Virginia, there are no ratings restrictions at all, encouraging insurers to try to turn a profit on each individual business. And no matter what state you're in, ratings bands don't apply to companies with more than 50 employees, which means that those such as Biotest are left unprotected.
Little Leverage for Small Companies

Compounding the problem is that entrepreneurs slapped with hefty premium increases often have few other options. According to a 2008 survey by the Government Accounting Office, the median market share of the largest carrier in the small group market is 47%; in Alabama, one carrier insures 96% of all small businesses. As Senator Olympia Snowe (R-Me.), the ranking member of the Committee on Small Business & Entrepreneurship, which commissioned this study, notes: "Such consolidation is an alarming trend."

In the absence of major state or federal policy changes, small companies have little leverage. "All any individual entrepreneur can do is to become more knowledgeable and to take the time to shop around for coverage," advises Amanda Austin, the director of federal public policy at the National Federation of Independent Business. However, President Barack Obama's health-care initiative holds some potential to help level the playing field. The bills now bouncing around Congress all call for the creation of a health-insurance exchange, which, besides offering small businesses more affordable choices, would provide protection against sudden rate hikes. But even this measure might exclude small firms with more than 20 employees. Says Nichols: "I'm very concerned about this. It will leave a lot of small businesses unprotected. The size really should go up to protect all firms that are not big enough to self-insure"—a number Nichols pegs at about 300 employees. But the current proposals leave Biotest and thousands of other similar companies out in the cold.

Joshua Kendall is a contributor to BusinessWeek SmallBiz.

http://www.businessweek.com/smallbiz/content/aug2009/sb2009087_865725_page_2.htm

Government may be untrustworthy, but what does that make out private businesses? By definition the only reason a publicly traded corporation exists is to make profit. Providing sound healthcare for all who are insured is unprofitable. We're not that far removed from the entire housing/home loan scandal nor are we that far removed from Tyco, Worldcom, Enron and the litany of other scandals that have happened in the past decade alone.

Say what you will about the likes of Blagojevich but at least he was caught -before- he had done any damage. Ken Lay? When was he caught? Oh, that's right, well after everyone involved got fucked except for the gilded few.

[booster11373]

48 years ago:

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The world didnt end 48 years ago

[KatPw]

The world didnt end 48 years ago

And I am sure President Reagan and Mrs. Reagan did not turn down medicare when they reached eligibility age.

[hammersavage]

The world didnt end 48 years ago

Did his plan cover treatment for his wife's Mardi Gras float head? she's like a Pez dispenser.

[west milly Tom]

So all companies that profit are evil? Where does it end? What should the government NOT control/run/regulate?

[booster11373]

So all companies that profit are evil? Where does it end? What should the government NOT control/run/regulate?

who said that?

[booster11373]

48 years ago:

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I also loves Reagan's contempt for the American people. that just because something has a different name we will eat it it up

[underdog]

So all companies that profit are evil? Where does it end? What should the government NOT control/run/regulate?

Sierra Mist.

[west milly Tom]

Sierra Mist.



Funny you bring that up with all the chatter about what happening with sugar right now.

[Syd]

So all companies that profit are evil? Where does it end? What should the government NOT control/run/regulate?

All for corporations can be construed as evil. It's the necessity of capitalism to exploit someone -- the worker or the customer. However, that is the goal of a corporation. Profit above all else, even sustainability. You can't necessarily call it evil no more than you can calling a carnivore evil because it kills others to survive.

What you can do though is not let corporations profit off of pretending to care for our health. That is something in particular that government should run. Move to a single payer system, leave our infrastructure in place and allow the government to act as our insurers. We'll at least have the ability to do something about bad care then. We're not at the whims of a corporation providing us with healthcare or tied to the only healthcare anyone can reasonably afford -- through our employer.

[LordJezo]

I heard Regan's speech on healthcare on the way back from the gym today.

Almost brought a tear to my eye, after 40 years of fighting back the communists they are finally going to win because Obama is black and it's considered racist to fight against him.

It took the libs decades but they finally found their golden ticket to destroying the America that has been around for 100s of years. Now that calling this heath care deal socalism is the same as calling someone an n they are going to speed it right through congress no matter what the American people say.

[IMSlacker]

I heard Regan's speech on healthcare on the way back from the gym today.

Almost brought a tear to my eye, after 40 years of fighting back the communists they are finally going to win because Obama is black and it's considered racist to fight against him.

It took the libs decades but they finally found their golden ticket to destroying the America that has been around for 100s of years. Now that calling this heath care deal socalism is the same as calling someone an n they are going to speed it right through congress no matter what the American people say.

It must have made you especially sad to know that he recorded that as a spokesman for the AMA, who now endorses Obama's health care plan.

[LordJezo]

It must have made you especially sad to know that he recorded that as a spokesman for the AMA, who now endorses Obama's health care plan.

Of course they do, any organization that wants any kind of in with Obama needs to follow him and agree with everything he says. Once Obama has control over the entire private sector he'll remember who stood with him and who said anything against him. It's going to be painful as all contracts and government funds go to only those who support Obama. We saw it happen with the car dealerships and it wont be long until we see it in ever other facet of our lives.

Republicans will be sent to the ghettos as liberals are given land rights and the highest positions in society. medieval caste systems are only a few years away, those who go against the chairman will be plebs forced into servitude to their communist liberal lords.

[IMSlacker]

I'm sure glad I picked the right side.

[epo]

Of course they do, any organization that wants any kind of in with Obama needs to follow him and agree with everything he says. Once Obama has control over the entire private sector he'll remember who stood with him and who said anything against him. It's going to be painful as all contracts and government funds go to only those who support Obama. We saw it happen with the car dealerships and it wont be long until we see it in ever other facet of our lives.

Republicans will be sent to the ghettos as liberals are given land rights and the highest positions in society. medieval caste systems are only a few years away, those who go against the chairman will be plebs forced into servitude to their communist liberal lords.

I've got a special slum picked out for you.

[underdog]

Of course they do, any organization that wants any kind of in with Obama needs to follow him and agree with everything he says. Once Obama has control over the entire private sector he'll remember who stood with him and who said anything against him. It's going to be painful as all contracts and government funds go to only those who support Obama. We saw it happen with the car dealerships and it wont be long until we see it in ever other facet of our lives.

Republicans will be sent to the ghettos as liberals are given land rights and the highest positions in society. medieval caste systems are only a few years away, those who go against the chairman will be plebs forced into servitude to their communist liberal lords.

Exactly.

[epo]

Exactly.

Being a decider is going to be fucking awesome.

[Furtherman]

I can't decide: legs or shoulders today?

[booster11373]

Of course they do, any organization that wants any kind of in with Obama needs to follow him and agree with everything he says. Once Obama has control over the entire private sector he'll remember who stood with him and who said anything against him. It's going to be painful as all contracts and government funds go to only those who support Obama. We saw it happen with the car dealerships and it wont be long until we see it in ever other facet of our lives.

Republicans will be sent to the ghettos as liberals are given land rights and the highest positions in society. medieval caste systems are only a few years away, those who go against the chairman will be plebs forced into servitude to their communist liberal lords.

Just continue to re-rack your weights and wipe down the equipment after you are done and everything will be fine

[Jujubees2]

I heard Regan's speech on healthcare on the way back from the gym today.

Almost brought a tear to my eye, after 40 years of fighting back the communists they are finally going to win because Obama is black and it's considered racist to fight against him.

It took the libs decades but they finally found their golden ticket to destroying the America that has been around for 100s of years. Now that calling this heath care deal socalism is the same as calling someone an n they are going to speed it right through congress no matter what the American people say.

http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/pais/currentstudents/moduledocs/pgmodules/is/whatisinternationalsecurity/bush_mission_accomplished.jpg

[Crispy123]

Ok...I may have of over-reacted a bit.

But I want it on record that when we visit VA centers you usually need to have some sort of private insurance in order to receive care. B, any vet that served is entitled to yearly checkups by VA as well as reductions for medicines and eyeglasses. Yet you still need to have some sort of private insurance. The VA is run well and I have no complaints. I have my own private doc, but I like to use the VA center from time to time for some minor things.

We dont view private citizens as pieces of garbage and many vets DON'T take advantage of the benefits that are set up for them cause they dont know they are entitled to em. Guys who are uninsured can get coverage for up to three years from time of discharge and first time they go to a VA center. Some guys never visit a VA center till later in their lives.

I have no private insurance. Strictly VA, I do have a service connected disability though. The VA did ask if I had private insurance to bill them a portion if covered but I don't and I still get coverage. I do have private dental. I think the military and VA are trying to do better to get the word out about what services veterans have available and what they are eligible for.

I have had government health insurance for the last 13 years and its done pretty well for me. I have had broken bones, teeth pulled, vaccines, and a kid; it all worked out pretty well.

[west milly Tom]

All for corporations can be construed as evil. It's the necessity of capitalism to exploit someone -- the worker or the customer. However, that is the goal of a corporation. Profit above all else, even sustainability. You can't necessarily call it evil no more than you can calling a carnivore evil because it kills others to survive.



This is the true heart of socialism and the nature of the issue of which we are debating right now. We aren't a nation who believes this in fact we fought long and hard to try to eradicate this system from our planet's face. I'm not going to down you for what you believe, I think you are a reasonably intelligent person who has a different view than me. I'm glad that we can now all see exactly the mentality of what we are dealing with here. I wish everybody else would at the least be as honest as you.

[Crispy123]

This is the true heart of socialism and the nature of the issue of which we are debating right now. We aren't a nation who believes this in fact we fought long and hard to try to eradicate this system from our planet's face. I'm not going to down you for what you believe, I think you are a reasonably intelligent person who has a different view than me. I'm glad that we can now all see exactly the mentality of what we are dealing with here. I wish everybody else would at the least be as honest as you.

We did not fight to eradicate socialism. We fought for the freedom to express your ideas and the ability to vote for an elected official that supports your views. Communism and fascism are forms of government that we do not constitutionally support but it has never been American policy to attack another nation strictly because they have a system of government that we disagree with. There has to be a breaking of international treaties or criminal behavior to validate attacking another nation.

[west milly Tom]

We did not fight to eradicate socialism. We fought for the freedom to express your ideas and the ability to vote for an elected official that supports your views. Communism and fascism are forms of government that we do not constitutionally support but it has never been American policy to attack another nation strictly because they have a system of government that we disagree with. There has to be a breaking of international treaties or criminal behavior to validate attacking another nation.




So it's your belief that we never fought communism?

[Crispy123]

So it's your belief that we never fought communism?

I guess, if what youre saying is that the Earth is flat.

[brettmojo]

Communism and fascism are forms of government that we do not constitutionally support but it has never been American policy to attack another nation strictly because they have a system of government that we disagree with.
http://images.ctv.ca/archives/CTVNews/img2/20061228/475_ap_saddam_061228.jpg

[Crispy123]

Technically he did the criminal treaty breaking thing. The problem with attacking Iraq is that we kind of did the same thing, not following UN policies, and the fact that we still hadnt gone after the people who actually attacked us (Osama and company).

My point is that we dont attack ideas or "forms of government". We attack nations that dont abide by recognized international law or ones threaten other nations or even there own citizens.

We actually fought to promote free thinking and the spread of ideas, not shut them up.

[TheMojoPin]

This is the true heart of socialism and the nature of the issue of which we are debating right now. We aren't a nation who believes this in fact we fought long and hard to try to eradicate this system from our planet's face. I'm not going to down you for what you believe, I think you are a reasonably intelligent person who has a different view than me. I'm glad that we can now all see exactly the mentality of what we are dealing with here. I wish everybody else would at the least be as honest as you.

If we're trying to "eradicate" socialism why have we always intentionally had socialist aspects of our government? Shit, we had socialism before it even had a name.

[HBox]

Love it or leave it. That's what I say.

[underdog]

Love it or leave it. That's what I say.

These colors don't run!

[HBox]

These colors don't run!

It breaks my heart when these traitors slander our country and our leader. Unlike some people I love this country.

[underdog]

It breaks my heart when these traitors slander our country and our leader. Unlike some people I love this country.

They're all a bunch of socialist liberal faggots.

[Compliment-Guy]

We are so lucky to live in a country where people with so many opinions and beliefs can state and debate them so openly!

You are all intelligent and passionate!

[west milly Tom]

If we're trying to "eradicate" socialism why have we always intentionally had socialist aspects of our government? Shit, we had socialism before it even had a name.



?

I love the compliment guy.

[TheMojoPin]

Dammit, I butchered that sentence.

Fixed.

[west milly Tom]

Dammit, I butchered that sentence.

Fixed.



Now I look dumb. Wink wink.

[Syd]

This is the true heart of socialism and the nature of the issue of which we are debating right now. We aren't a nation who believes this in fact we fought long and hard to try to eradicate this system from our planet's face. I'm not going to down you for what you believe, I think you are a reasonably intelligent person who has a different view than me. I'm glad that we can now all see exactly the mentality of what we are dealing with here. I wish everybody else would at the least be as honest as you.

The true heart of socialism is that society is stronger when it works together as opposed to working against each other. It's about egalitarianism, which was the reason for American Revolution. It was about taking the power from the few and giving it to the many.

EVERYTHING about that timeframe was about socialism -- it just didn't have a time yet. From Poland all the way back across Europe to France the citizens of nations were tired of being exploited so that the gilded few could live in excess.

We headed into that once already in the country and we're headed right back into it. Too many people are confused as to where they actually stand in life, led astray by having millions upon millions of dollars spent on PR firms and marketing to tease them and create a charade that they too can be rich. They're told that unions are bad for them because they're for the lazy or inept.

America doesn't deserve socialism. With people fighting so hard against their own interests I can't be bothered to care. Let the people ensure there's no class mobility. Let the people ensure they'll do nothing more than deliver pizzas to each other. Let the people kid themselves that the Bernard Ebbers of the world give one inkling of shit about them.

Voter apathy abound and popular politicians claiming government isn't the solution, it is the problem.

When is the last time your bank held a town hall to discuss policy?

When is the last time you were able to vote for any boardmember of Exxon?

When did we give up the ideals of our government? When did we decide that we were not fit to govern ourselves? When did we seal the deal with the devil to let those with the most money govern us?

I'm not trying to call for anarchy or communism, i'm just calling for us to remember that the government is us. Business isn't us. As much as you think America has battled against socialism, remember that the original reason America fought was to give the power to the people. Not the power to a select few, but to the whole of us.

[booster11373]

The true heart of socialism is that society is stronger when it works together as opposed to working against each other. It's about egalitarianism, which was the reason for American Revolution. It was about taking the power from the few and giving it to the many.

EVERYTHING about that timeframe was about socialism -- it just didn't have a time yet. From Poland all the way back across Europe to France the citizens of nations were tired of being exploited so that the gilded few could live in excess.

We headed into that once already in the country and we're headed right back into it. Too many people are confused as to where they actually stand in life, led astray by having millions upon millions of dollars spent on PR firms and marketing to tease them and create a charade that they too can be rich. They're told that unions are bad for them because they're for the lazy or inept.

America doesn't deserve socialism. With people fighting so hard against their own interests I can't be bothered to care. Let the people ensure there's no class mobility. Let the people ensure they'll do nothing more than deliver pizzas to each other. Let the people kid themselves that the Bernard Ebbers of the world give one inkling of shit about them.

Voter apathy abound and popular politicians claiming government isn't the solution, it is the problem.

When is the last time your bank held a town hall to discuss policy?

When is the last time you were able to vote for any boardmember of Exxon?

When did we give up the ideals of our government? When did we decide that we were not fit to govern ourselves? When did we seal the deal with the devil to let those with the most money govern us?

I'm not trying to call for anarchy or communism, i'm just calling for us to remember that the government is us. Business isn't us. As much as you think America has battled against socialism, remember that the original reason America fought was to give the power to the people. Not the power to a select few, but to the whole of us.

Well said

[booster11373]

I just saw an ad for a prescription medicine hawked by Brooke Sheilds the will grow your eyelashes if you are unhappy with the side effects will follow clearly we have the greatest minds at work

[Gvac]

I guess we should just shred the Constitution and burn it.

Obviously the original plan didn't work.

Fuck the Bill Of Rights, too.

Ditto for the Declaration Of Independence.

Think it's too late to beg England to be our daddy again?

[TheMojoPin]

Poor Gvac.

He's so dumb.

[brettmojo]

I guess we should just shred the Constitution and burn it.

Obviously the original plan didn't work.

Fuck the Bill Of Rights, too.

Ditto for the Declaration Of Independence.

Think it's too late to beg England to be our daddy again?
Hopefully not. Then we can get in on some of that sweet health care.

[Furtherman]

CBS News Sunday Morning had an excellent, in depth analysis with doctors, political analysis and facts about Obama's healthcare reform.

All the talk on socialism is false. What we're hearing in the yelling at town hall meetings, and some posts here, is the frustration of the 47% of people who voted for McCain and the pundits who get paid to oppose Obama taking advantage of that fact and just lying to these people to get them riled up.

An excellent piece that I hope I can find a link for all to see.

[Gvac]

CBS News Sunday Morning had an excellent, in depth analysis with doctors, political analysis and facts about Obama's healthcare reform.

All the talk on socialism is false.

I hear ya, buddy...


http://www.mobipocket.com/eBooks/cover_remote/ID4963/COMMUNIST-MANIFESTO-COVER.jpg

[hanso]

I just saw the coming up after the break deal for CBS News Sunday Morning. Its on the system of France. (watching now).

If our system is to adapt to a system like this. Something needs to be done on the legal side of things. Frivolous lawsuits. ( ambulance chasing lawyers).

I saw a snippet of Obama stating that 2/3 of the costs for health reform will be from restructuring. (maybe the legal side is included).

A point hindering this reform is costs. This is coming on the coattails of the last administration running up deficits the highest in history. The right has always done this leaving the left to clean up. (tax & spend).

The difference being that many will benefit from this spending rather then the few from the prior debt.

[Dude!]

CBS News Sunday Morning had an excellent, in depth analysis with doctors, political analysis and facts about Obama's healthcare reform.

All the talk on socialism is false. What we're hearing in the yelling at town hall meetings, and some posts here, is the frustration of the 47% of people who voted for McCain and the pundits who get paid to oppose Obama taking advantage of that fact and just lying to these people to get them riled up.

An excellent piece that I hope I can find a link for all to see.

i didn't see the piece
but i keep my ears open
everywhere i go
supermarket mall gym (not jezo's)
and people are really concerned
really, really concerned

the health thing has triggered it
but people don't even understand
what 'the plan' is
cause there isn't a plan
so how could they

they are upset about the potential
for more huge govt expenditures
after the bail out and the gm takeover
etc etc etc
when we are already broke

[KatPw]

i didn't see the piece
but i keep my ears open
everywhere i go
supermarket mall gym (not jezo's)
and people are really concerned
really, really concerned

the health thing has triggered it
but people don't even understand
what 'the plan' is
cause there isn't a plan
so how could they

they are upset about the potential
for more huge govt expenditures
after the bail out and the gm takeover
etc etc etc
when we are already broke
Where was their outrage when Bush signed on for a war without budgeting for it? Where was their outrage when Bush reformed medicare and didn't budget for it? These people are scared because the talking points are telling them to be scared, just like the talking points told them to be for anything Bush did.

[Dude!]

Where was their outrage when Bush signed on for a war without budgeting for it? Where was their outrage when Bush reformed medicare and didn't budget for it? These people are scared because the talking points are telling them to be scared, just like the talking points told them to be for anything Bush did.

that is way too simplistic
people have more common sense
than you give them credit for

[HBox]

that is way too simplistic
people have more common sense
than you give them credit for

Except the alternative to this is increasingly stagnating wages and a rapidly increasing number of uninsured which will drive up costs both for private insurance and government programs.

We are going to pay a lot either way. Reforming now will at least make less people suffer without insurance and hopefully in the future contain these costs.

But there isn't an option where we don't spend a shitload of money.

[KatPw]

that is way too simplistic
people have more common sense
than you give them credit for

If they had common sense they would know that 1) there is no single bill being discussed, so no one knows what is in "the bill" and 2) they would actually look up information before running with talking points.
There are no "death panels" that will be offing grandma, yet people are screaming about that. There is no single payer option being discussed, yet people are screaming about that. The president keeps stating that if you are happy with your current health insurance company that you can keep it, yet they are screaming about that. They keep screaming Socialism! and then cry that they are scared their medicare will be taken away from them.

[Furtherman]

Well said Katpw. These people complaining have no idea what they are complaining about.

[angrymissy]

Well said Katpw. These people complaining have no idea what they are complaining about.

It's simply people who don't want Obama in office using these Town Hall discussions to scream and bitch and cry and stomp their feet like children.

[KatPw]

It's simply people who don't want Obama in office using these Town Hall discussions to scream and bitch and cry and stomp their feet like children.

And like children throwing temper tantrums, the rest of sane America needs to walk away from then until they stop or pass out from holding their breath.

[Dude!]

If they had common sense they would know that 1) there is no single bill being discussed, so no one knows what is in "the bill" and 2) they would actually look up information before running with talking points.
There are no "death panels" that will be offing grandma, yet people are screaming about that. There is no single payer option being discussed, yet people are screaming about that. The president keeps stating that if you are happy with your current health insurance company that you can keep it, yet they are screaming about that. They keep screaming Socialism! and then cry that they are scared their medicare will be taken away from them.

the crux of the problem is
that obama...like all politicians...
is lying too us

he has said:
...we will insure 47 million uninsured
...you can keep your current coverage
...any changes will not affect the deficit

that is impossible
and everyone knows it

it is so dishonest
but the way they do things in DC
on both sides

[KatPw]

the crux of the problem is
that obama...like all politicians...
is lying too us

he has said:
...we will insure 47 million uninsured
...you can keep your current coverage
...any changes will not affect the deficit

that is impossible
and everyone knows it

it is so dishonest
but the way they do things in DC
on both sides
Where is he lying?

[A.J.]

And like children throwing temper tantrums, the rest of sane America needs to walk away from then until they stop or pass out from holding their breath.

Or, preferably, smack them with a wooden spoon.

[HBox]

the crux of the problem is
that obama...like all politicians...
is lying too us

he has said:
...we will insure 47 million uninsured
...you can keep your current coverage
...any changes will not affect the deficit

that is impossible
and everyone knows it

it is so dishonest
but the way they do things in DC
on both sides

The middle thing is impossible. He can't possibly guarantee that. he's overstating the point that his plan won't force employers to drop coverage and make people take part in a public plan. But the first and third things are far from impossible.

[Dude!]

Where is he lying?

because it is IMPOSSIBLE
to cover 47 million uninsured AND
let people keep their current coverage
without increasing the deficit

IMPOSSIBLE
and he knows it
so he is lying

[KatPw]

The middle thing is impossible. He can't possibly guarantee that. he's overstating the point that his plan won't force employers to drop coverage and make people take part in a public plan. But the first and third things are far from impossible.

And yet no one is angry at corporations or companies that will potentially drop coverage for their employees.

[KatPw]

because it is IMPOSSIBLE
to cover 47 million uninsured AND
let people keep their current coverage
without increasing the deficit

IMPOSSIBLE
and he knows it
so he is lying

The Bush tax cuts will be left to expire. There is a lot of money right there. Also taxing companies that drop coverage for their employees will generate money. Doing away with Medicare Advantage (which is NOT medicare, it is private insurance companies that take the patients off of medicare and provide services that medicare already covers. Medicare money is going directly to private insurance, and the patients aren't getting the services that medicare would provide while still paying out of pocket.) will generate money. Also, buy computerizing medical records and updating the system will cut costs because test redundancies will be eliminated. This will benefit patients because all their information will be encrypted and computerized, making it easy for test results and chart notations to be transferred between the patients' primary care physicians and their specialists.

[HBox]

because it is IMPOSSIBLE
to cover 47 million uninsured AND
let people keep their current coverage
without increasing the deficit

IMPOSSIBLE
and he knows it
so he is lying

It is absolutely not impossible. There are these things called tax increases, not to mention all the cuts in Medicare and Medicaid and all the cuts the industry agreed to.

[TheMojoPin]

WASHINGTON – President Barack Obama's health secretary is suggesting the White House is ready to accept nonprofit insurance cooperatives instead of a government-run public option in a health overhaul plan.

Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius says Obama still believes there should be choice and competition" in the health insurance market — but that a public option is "not the essential element."

Obama has been pressing for the government to run a health insurance organization to help cover the nation's nearly 50 million uninsured. But he had not seen a not-for-profit co-op as sufficient to offer consumers choice and competition that would bring down the costs of private insurance.

Sebelius spoke on CNN's "State of the Union."

Oh, what the fuck.

My disdain for this halfassed "reform" grows more and more each day. I want the health care system actually overhauled, not this penny ante shit. This plan is going to be so neutered and watered down by the time it's put into play, if it is at all, that it's barely going to accomplish anything. These are steps, but they're tiny, almost meaningless baby steps for how much they're going to cost.

It's Clinton and Co. all over again. Way to stick to your guns, assholes.

[epo]

Oh, what the fuck.

My disdain for this halfassed "reform" grows more and more each day. I want the health care system actually overhauled, not this penny ante shit. This plan is going to be so neutered and watered down by the time it's put into play, if it is at all, that it's barely going to accomplish anything. These are steps, but they're tiny, almost meaningless baby steps for how much they're going to cost.

It's Clinton and Co. all over again. Way to stick to your guns, assholes.

How the fuck has the party given Harry Reid a filibuster-proof majority and yet he can't get the Senate to pass anything?

He drives me fucking insane.

[Gvac]

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/flag3-animated.gif

[TheMojoPin]

http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/3/j/dean_scream_pic.jpg

Oh, why didn't we listen?!?

Screaming madman, come back to us...

[epo]

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/flag3-animated.gif

Yay! Grandma loves the status quo!

[TheMojoPin]

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/flag3-animated.gif

http://www.headinjurytheater.com/images/mzomb%20captain%20america%20brainless.jpg

[HBox]

This all goes to Max Baucus who refuses to let his health care bill get out of committee without getting Republican support. One of the guys he is negotiating is Chuck Grassley who is out there perpetuating the death panel lies. Hopefully Baucus finally gives up on the assholes but I doubt it.

Another thing is that they don't have a filibuster-proof majority on any given day. Ted Kennedy and Robert Byrd can't be counted on to show up for votes with their current health.

[A.J.]

http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/3/j/dean_scream_pic.jpg

Oh, why didn't we listen?!?

Screaming madman, come back to us...

Pity you're not still here. I got the following flyer yesterday in the mail:

Howard Dean to Join Rep. Moran for Town Hall on Health Care Reform Efforts

When: Tuesday, August 25, 2009
7:00PM - 9:00PM
--Doors open at 6:00PM

Where: South Lakes High School, Auditorium
11400 South Lakes Dr.
Reston, Virginia

What: Town Hall meeting hosted by Rep. Jim Moran featuring Governor Howard Dean, M.D., former Governor of Vermont, Democratic National Committee Chair Emeritus, author, and national grassroots leader on health care. The meeting will discuss current efforts in Congress to reform our nation’s health care system.

Why: Congress is attempting to craft the first major reform of our nation’s health care system in 45 years. With over 47 million Americans uninsured, medical costs rising everyday, and obtaining quality insurance coverage becoming more and more difficult, the time for action has come.

Congressman Moran has invited Dr. Dean to speak at this forum in Northern Virginia, to reflect upon the current effort given his years of experience as a leading health care expert, governor and physician. The town hall will be an opportunity for the Congressman to hear from 8th District constituents on health care, and to clarify what the reform measures in the Congress really mean for Northern Virginians.

*This event is free and open to the public. Seating is limited, available on a first come first serve basis.

[epo]

This all goes to Max Baucus who refuses to let his health care bill get out of committee without getting Republican support. One of the guys he is negotiating is Chuck Grassley who is out there perpetuating the death panel lies. Hopefully Baucus finally gives up on the assholes but I doubt it.

Another thing is that they don't have a filibuster-proof majority on any given day. Ted Kennedy and Robert Byrd can't be counted on to show up for votes with their current health.

Baucus insists on doing his committee on a 3-3 dem/rep split, rather than using his majority, like a damned idiot.

This kind of shit would not happen under Pelosi's watch.

[Gvac]

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[TheMojoPin]

Pity you're not still here. I got the following flyer yesterday in the mail:

Please go and represent me with Dean's face painted all over your torso.

[underdog]

that is way too simplistic
people have more common sense
than you give them credit for

No, they don't.

[TheMojoPin]

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It's a choice between Pepsi or Coke with these first two songs.

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[Syd]

because it is IMPOSSIBLE
to cover 47 million uninsured AND
let people keep their current coverage
without increasing the deficit

IMPOSSIBLE
and he knows it
so he is lying

You do realize the amount of waste created by not insuring the roughly 100 million people who have effectively no coverage, right? They're the people who do not go to their regular doctors and opt for the ER instead. They're the people who help spread the flu, costing more money to be wasted. They're the people who wait till too late for care.

And, beyond that there's the issue of healthcare companies being for profit and already paying nearly a dollar on Medicare/Medicaid/VAs dime.

There's a lot of money wasted in the healthcare industry because of its bureaucratic nature. You don't get that profitable without spending copious amounts of money on denying claims and forcing ineffective care.

Anyway, please do keep kidding yourself. Keep fighting for a cause that harms you. The schadenfreude is delicious.

[EliSnow]

There's a lot of money wasted in the healthcare industry because of its bureaucratic nature. You don't get that profitable without spending copious amounts of money on denying claims and forcing ineffective care.



Actually, you can be that profitable without denying claims. Indeed, the vast majority of claims are approved and paid. Plus, a number of companies are working to force effective care, realizing that effective care is actually less expensive than ineffective care.

[Dude!]

You do realize the amount of waste created by not insuring the roughly 100 million people who have effectively no coverage, right? They're the people who do not go to their regular doctors and opt for the ER instead. They're the people who help spread the flu, costing more money to be wasted. They're the people who wait till too late for care.

And, beyond that there's the issue of healthcare companies being for profit and already paying nearly a dollar on Medicare/Medicaid/VAs dime.

There's a lot of money wasted in the healthcare industry because of its bureaucratic nature. You don't get that profitable without spending copious amounts of money on denying claims and forcing ineffective care.

Anyway, please do keep kidding yourself. Keep fighting for a cause that harms you. The schadenfreude is delicious.

i'm not fighting for any cause
i don't even pretend to understand
what is going on

all i know is that bush lied
about iraq and about how
much the prescription drug plan would cost

and that obama is lying too
if you want real reform it will require major
SACRIFICE by some people or by all people
and god forbid any politician tells the truth
and says we must sacrifice

[Syd]

i'm not fighting for any cause
i don't even pretend to understand
what is going on

all i know is that bush lied
about iraq and about how
much the prescription drug plan would cost

and that obama is lying too
if you want real reform it will require major
SACRIFICE by some people or by all people
and god forbid any politician tells the truth
and says we must sacrifice

Well fact is other companies with some form of universal healthcare have everyone living longer, not having healthcare costs driving them into bankruptcy and spending less on healthcare

So, there's some truth in that. The only thing you have to sacrifice is an industry built to thrive on allowing others to die to increase your profit margin. Which is somewhere around 10% -- meaning for every dollar you and your employer give your insurer, at least 10 cents goes directly into their pocket. That's not including how much other money is spent on non-medical causes such as spending money on ads to tell you that any sort of healthcare reform is bad.

[Syd]

Actually, you can be that profitable without denying claims. Indeed, the vast majority of claims are approved and paid. Plus, a number of companies are working to force effective care, realizing that effective care is actually less expensive than ineffective care.

So why is our preventable mortality rate worse than Portugal?

[EliSnow]

So why is our preventable mortality rate worse than Portugal?

And you're blaming that on insurance companies denying claims? Come on.

There's a host of reasons for it, including the prevalence on obesity, which has leads to the increase in diabetes and other conditions that can take a life, and underinsured and uninsured people not wanting to risk spending a lot of money to get themselves regularly checked when they are healthy, or see a doctor with a serious condition at an early stage. There's other factors too.

Reform is necessary. But stop trying to lay the entire blame on managed heatlh care companies. One of the huge problems we have now is the radical increase in medical costs, which are influenced by another host of reasons, including malpractice rates. Indeed, even Medicare is somewhat to blame. I have direct experience with hospital administrators who have stated that their hospitals bill more (and accept more if they are in network) on privately insured people, because the medicare rates they have to accept are so low.

I'm not saying we should get rid of Medicare, but there is a huge issue of control of medical costs and I don't see much information on how the current plans address that.

[Dude!]

So why is our preventable mortality rate worse than Portugal?

it is so silly to compare a country
of 10 million with a homogeneous
largely rural population
to a country of 300 million
with 15 million illegal immigrants
just silly

and maybe it has to do with the
fact that the portuguese live on fish and wine
and our poor eat nothing but junk food

it has absolutely nothing to do with
doctors and hospitals
or the two health care systems

[HBox]

And you're blaming that on insurance companies denying claims? Come on.

There's a host of reasons for it, including the prevalence on obesity, which has leads to the increase in diabetes and other conditions that can take a life, and underinsured and uninsured people not wanting to risk spending a lot of money. There's other factors too.

Reform is necessary. But stop trying to lay the entire blame on managed heatlh care companies. One of the huge problems is the radical increase in medical costs, which are influenced by another host of reasons, including malpractice rates. Indeed, even Medicare is somewhat to blame. I have direct experience with hospital administrators who bill more and accept more if they are in network on privately insured people, because the medicare rates they have to accept are so low.

I'm not saying we should get rid of Medicare, but there is a huge issue of control of medical costs and I don't see much information on how the current plans address that.

It's not only insurance companies denying claims, it's mostly insurance companies doing everything they can to deny coverage to anyone that costs them money.

As far as measures controlling medical costs they will likely be one of the last things included in the bill.

[HBox]

it has absolutely nothing to do with
doctors and hospitals
or the two health care systems

While America's unhealthy diets and lifestyles are undoubtedly a factor, this three part statement is absolutely false.

[EliSnow]

It's not only insurance companies denying claims, it's mostly insurance companies doing everything they can to deny coverage to anyone that costs them money.

As far as measures controlling medical costs they will likely be one of the last things included in the bill.

Again, not true. The vast majority of healthcare claims are approved and paid. Insurance companies do work to try to reduce their medical spend, but it's not usually through denial of claims.

I don't think people realize how regulated these companies are on the state level. State departments of insurance, health and attorney generals have bureaus set up to monitor and regulate these companies, their practices, and their rates. Insurance companies cannot do everything they can to deny coverage, because then they wouldn't be able to do business in those states.

And controlling medical costs should be the first things to deal with in any bill. It's not an afterthought. It's the primary driver of all of healthcare costs.

[EliSnow]

One personal story about ridiculous medical costs. When my wife was pregnant with our second child, she was scheduled to go to our local hospital for a 2 hour session to try and move the baby from a breach position to the normal position. She was not scheduled to be there for more than two hours, and we actually were there one hour.

When we got the bill, the billed rate for the hospital room alone (not taking into account the actual services provided by the nurses, and doctor) was $495, essentially for one hour.

We could have gotten a nice hotel room in Manhattan for a night for that cost, rather than a hospital room for one hour.

[TheMojoPin]

it is so silly to compare a country
of 10 million with a homogeneous
largely rural population
to a country of 300 million
with 15 million illegal immigrants
just silly

Do you not understand how rates work?

[KatPw]

One thing that ups the cost of health care and at the same time causes heath problems is the lack of nutritional counseling patients receive. Nutritional counseling should be considered part of preventive care. Many insurance plans do not cover the cost of seeing a nutritionist, and too few healthcare providers give their patients any nutritional guidance other than "eat healthier and exercise".

Going over a patient's current diet and exercise regimen should be the first thing that is done when their cholesterol is becoming high, if the person is becoming borderline diabetic, etc. Instead these people are put on medications (which are now referred to as lifestyle drugs which makes me sick) without having the patient make any real changes. This drives up the cost of care because now you have a patient on these lifestyle drugs indefinitely, which often require quarterly blood work to check for a decrease in liver function. Many of these drugs also cause side-effects which require other drugs to combat thereby increasing the cost of care even more.

[HBox]

Again, not true. The vast majority of healthcare claims are approved and paid. Insurance companies do work to try to reduce their medical spend, but it's not usually through denail of claims.

I don't think people realize how regulated these companies are on the state level. State departments of insurance, health and attorney generals have bureaus set up to monitor and regulate these companies, their practices, and their rates. Insurance companies cannot do everything they can to deny coverage, because then they wouldn't be able to do business in those states.

And controlling medical costs should be the first things to deal with in any bill. It's not an afterthought. It's the primary driver of all of healthcare costs.

Yes they absolutely can. Try having a chronic condition and having a brief lapse in coverage. Individual insurance plans aren't even an option with how expensive they are. And the ridiculous shit they can pick out as a pre-existing condition. There is plenty they can do that is perfectly legal.

And the controlling costs thing isn't an after-thought. They just don't want to have bill hanging around for months with all these measures to control costs in there. They turned Medicare providing coverage for optional end-of-life counseling into death panels. They turned a plan to eliminate waste in Medicare into letting old people die.

[EliSnow]

One thing that ups the cost of health care and at the same time causes heath problems is the lack of nutritional counseling patients receive. Nutritional counseling should be considered part of preventive care. Many insurance plans do not cover the cost of seeing a nutritionist, and too few healthcare providers give their patients any nutritional guidance other than "eat healthier and exercise".

Going over a patient's current diet and exercise regimen should be the first thing that is done when their cholesterol is becoming high, if the person is becoming borderline diabetic, etc. Instead these people are put on medications (which are now referred to as lifestyle drugs which makes me sick) without having the patient make any real changes. This drives up the cost of care because now you have a patient on these lifestyle drugs indefinitely, which often require quarterly blood work to check for a decrease in liver function. Many of these drugs also cause side-effects which require other drugs to combat thereby increasing the cost of care even more.

The insurance plan I am under offers these medical management programs, including a pregnancy program, a heart care program and others.

BTW, here's one example of how insurance companies are trying to control medical costs without denial claims. In a seminar I attend, I heard about how a pill that costs $36k a year was being covered because those persons who took it had a 75% or better survival rate from a certain heart condition than without it, where the mortality rate was 90%. Because the patients took the drug they actually had less medical claims per year in dollars because they weren't going into emergency rooms, having multiple complex surgeries, and other expenses, because they were healthier with the pill than they were without.

[EliSnow]

Yes they absolutely can. Try having a chronic condition and having a brief lapse in coverage. Individual insurance plans aren't even an option with how expensive they are. And the ridiculous shit they can pick out as a pre-existing condition. There is plenty they can do that is perfectly legal.

Those things don't actually happen as often as health care claims that are covered and paid. And pre-existing conditions are regulated closely in many states. For instance, take a look at the pre-existing condition regulation in New York.

And the controlling costs thing isn't an after-thought. They just don't want to have bill hanging around for months with all these measures to control costs in there. They turned Medicare providing coverage for optional end-of-life counseling into death panels. They turned a plan to eliminate waste in Medicare into letting old people die.

Nice use of the word "they."

If reducing healthcare costs was the first thing, insurance companies wouldn't be stalling such a bill. It's in their interests to reduce healthcare costs too.

And I'm not tyring to blame hospitals and doctors for this. They should be asking these providers what the top three drivers of their costs are, and figure out ways to reduce them.

[HBox]

The insurance plan I am under offers these medical management programs, including a pregnancy program, a heart care program and others..

No offense meant here but you are a lawyer. I don't think your insurance plan is comparable to what most of us are dealing with. I've never had a plan that offered any of that. And I've had some decent coverage.

BTW, here's one example of how insurance companies are trying to control medical costs without denial claims. In a seminar I attend, I heard about how a pill that costs $36k a year was being covered because those persons who took it had a 75% or better survival rate from a certain heart condition than without it, where the mortality rate was 90%. Because the patients took the drug they actually had less medical claims per year in dollars because they weren't going into emergency rooms, having multiple complex surgeries, and other expenses, because they were healthier with the pill than they were without.

That's great for everyone who already has insurance and meaningless for 45 million without it and the 20 million additional under-insured.

I could go on and on with stories about how I was denied coverage for drugs or other coverage because regardless of whether or not it worked or it made me healthier in the future they found a clause in the contract which allowed them to deny coverage. Some times my doctor's office was able to convince them to cover it (a complete waste of their time) and other times they didn't.

[HBox]

[/color]

Those things don't actually happen as often as health care claims that are covered and paid. And pre-existing conditions are regulated closely in many states. For instance, take a look at the pre-existing condition regulation in New York.

What is your point here? That because insurance companies cover more people with serious illness than they deny because of a pre-existing condition everything is OK? It's a disgusting thing to do ever. And they are interested in spending as little money as possible on their own members which manifests itself in positive and negative ways, mostly negative. Insurance companies aren't hated in this country because they are looking out for making their members as healthy as possible.

Nice use of the word "they."

If reducing healthcare costs was the first thing, insurance companies wouldn't be stalling such a bill. It's in their interests to reduce healthcare costs too.

And I'm not tyring to blame hospitals and doctors for this. They should be asking these providers what the top three drivers of their costs are, and figure out ways to reduce them.

When I said "they" i wasn't referring to insurers I was referring to these idiotic protesters.

[EliSnow]

When I said "they" i wasn't referring to insurers I was referring to these idiotic protesters.

My point about the rarity of the pre-existing condition issue is that it's not a primary driver of the problem with the healthcare system. It doesn't happen that often and thus, covering pre-existing condition would do nothing to solve the issues. It's just a "red flag" used to drive hatred towards managed care companies even more. Pelosi, Obama and others want to paint those companies as the reason for the problem so they can drive their agenda more. It's almost as bad as they way those on the right have been using "death panels."

Our problems with the healthcare system is that due to the costs of providing healthcare and insurance, many people are un-insured or underinured, because the indiivdual and employers cannot afford to provide healthcare at all or at good levels. The pre-X condition denail, if eliminated, would do nothing to change any of that.

Also as to your point above about me being a a lawyer, I am an in-house attorney working for a company. My insurance plan is the same for all employees of the company, whether a mailroom person, a receptionist, etc.

[HBox]

My point about the rarity of the pre-existing condition issue is that it's not a primary driver of the problem with the healthcare system. It doesn't happen that often and thus, covering pre-existing condition would do nothing to solve the issues. It's just a "red flag" used to drive hatred towards managed care companies even more. Pelosi, Obama and others want to paint those companies as the reason for the problem so they can drive their agenda more. It's almost as bad as they way those on the right have been using "death panels."

Our problems with the healthcare system is that due to the costs of providing healthcare and insurance, many people are un-insured or underinured, because the indiivdual and employers cannot afford to provide healthcare at all or at good levels. The pre-X condition denail, if eliminated, would do nothing to change any of that.

Also as to your point above about me being a a lawyer, I am an in-house attorney working for a company. My insurance plan is the same for all employees of the company, whether a mailroom person, a receptionist, etc.



It doesn't happen often? It happens EVERY TIME someone has a pre-existing condition. This goes beyond their business. These are the companies we have entrusted to be in charge of health coverage in this country and they actively try to screen out the people who need it most. Sure, insurance companies are a force in driving down costs. It's in their best interests. The problem is that they do it anyway they can whether it hurts their members or not. What matters is if its legal and whether they can get away with it.

And maybe Obama and Pelosi are demonizing the insurers because they aren't supporting reform while doctors, hospitals and even drug companies are not only supporting it but have come to the table with voluntary measures to cut costs. All insurers are saying is that they support a mandate and don't want a public plan. And why wouldn't they? That way they have everyone in the country as a customer and a hefty subsidy from the government to cover the poor.

Look, I'm not saying that insurers are THE problem. They aren't. The health care mess is way too big to pin on one entity. But I'm not going to sit here and document every way that insurers have and still are fucking over people. Doctors and hospitals have a long way to go in changing their practices to make this work. But I'm not going to act as if insurers, as a whole, have acted in a manner that is anything other than acting in their own self-interest. Sometimes that works to the patient's benefit. More often it doesn't.

[Dude!]

Do you not understand how rates work?

i know exactly how they work
and how there are variables that
affect how one interprets that data

you think comparing US to Portugal
is apples to apples?

[EliSnow]

It doesn't happen often? It happens EVERY TIME someone has a pre-existing condition. This goes beyond their business. These are the companies we have entrusted to be in charge of health coverage in this country and they actively try to screen out the people who need it most. Sure, insurance companies are a force in driving down costs. It's in their best interests. The problem is that they do it anyway they can whether it hurts their members or not. What matters is if its legal and whether they can get away with it.

That's like saying that airplane fatalies happen often because it happens every time there is an airplane crash.

Second, it doesn't happen every time there is a pre-existing condition. In New York if a condition has existed for more than 12 months for a member of a regulated insurance plan, the insurance company cannot exclude it. (http://www.healthcare.com/health-insurance/state/new-york/new-york-health-insurance/)

Also, while I'm not completely certain, I think there is a reason for the exclusion. Generally, insurance works by collecting premiums from a large population of people, hopefully most of whom won't need payout from the insurance. Insurance companies have money to pay for sick people becuase they collect premiums from a lot more people who remain healthy, or whose medical costs are low. This is true for non-profit and profit companies, and both have the exclusion.

If you didn't have a pre-existing condition exclusion, what's the incentive to have health insurance? Why spend the money when you are healthy, because when you discover that you are sick, you can then get health insurance to pay for the costs. It seems to me it's like not insuring your home, and then when it gets damaged in a storm, purchasing home insurance to pay for the repairs.

Now, maybe I'm missing something on this, because I haven't spent a lot of time thinking about this, but that seems to be the reasoning for the exclusion.

And maybe Obama and Pelosi are demonizing the insurers because they aren't supporting reform while doctors, hospitals and even drug companies are not only supporting it but have come to the table with voluntary measures to cut costs. All insurers are saying is that they support a mandate and don't want a public plan. And why wouldn't they? That way they have everyone in the country as a customer and a hefty subsidy from the government to cover the poor.

Look, I'm not saying that insurers are THE problem. They aren't. The health care mess is way too big to pin on one entity. But I'm not going to sit here and document every way that insurers have and still are fucking over people. Doctors and hospitals have a long way to go in changing their practices to make this work. But I'm not going to act as if insurers, as a whole, have acted in a manner that is anything other than acting in their own self-interest. Sometimes that works to the patient's benefit. More often it doesn't.

EVERYONE is acting in their own self-interest. Hospitals and providers charge what they do so that they can cover their costs and make money. Which they should because we're in a capitalist society.

It's that way on every type of political debate. You have people representing their interests, and hopefully, you can work out a compromise that works.

[TheMojoPin]

i know exactly how they work
and how there are variables that
affect how one interprets that data

you think comparing US to Portugal
is apples to apples?

Of course not, but that's not what the comparison was doing.

[sailor]

Of course not, but that's not the comparison was doing.

i think you're missing a word or two.

[Dude!]

i think you're missing a word or two.

along with a few brain cells

[TheMojoPin]

along with a few brain cells

You're in no place to judge.

[EliSnow]

You're in no place to judge.

I assumed he was coming from a "takes one to know one" position.

[HBox]

That's like saying that airplane fatalies happen often because it happens every time there is an airplane crash.

Second, it doesn't happen every time there is a pre-existing condition. In New York if a condition has existed for more than 12 months for a member of a regulated insurance plan, the insurance company cannot exclude it. (http://www.healthcare.com/health-insurance/state/new-york/new-york-health-insurance/)

Also, while I'm not completely certain, I think there is a reason for the exclusion. Generally, insurance works by collecting premiums from a large population of people, hopefully most of whom won't need payout from the insurance. Insurance companies have money to pay for sick people becuase they collect premiums from a lot more people who remain healthy, or whose medical costs are low. This is true for non-profit and profit companies, and both have the exclusion.

If you didn't have a pre-existing condition exclusion, what's the incentive to have health insurance? Why spend the money when you are healthy, because when you discover that you are sick, you can then get health insurance to pay for the costs. It seems to me it's like not insuring your home, and then when it gets damaged in a storm, purchasing home insurance to pay for the repairs.

Now, maybe I'm missing something on this, because I haven't spent a lot of time thinking about this, but that seems to be the reasoning for the exclusion.

Yeah I do get the reasoning behind it. And I wish they way it worked in NY was the way it worked everywhere. It doesn't in NJ. I know in my case if I ever lost my insurance I would not be able to afford my meds and if I went without them for that 12 month period I would die. And I'm not exaggerating. It wouldn't even be a realistic option for me to wait the entire year. My only option would be to quit working entirely and go on welfare and medicaid.

Which all goes to show that this insurance model is not the way we should be handling health care. Should people be penalized because they become sick at an inopportune time? What about people born with serious conditions? They have to get a job with health insurance immediately out of school or they are royally fucked.

[epo]

One personal story about ridiculous medical costs. When my wife was pregnant with our second child, she was scheduled to go to our local hospital for a 2 hour session to try and move the baby from a breach position to the normal position. She was not scheduled to be there for more than two hours, and we actually were there one hour.

When we got the bill, the billed rate for the hospital room alone (not taking into account the actual services provided by the nurses, and doctor) was $495, essentially for one hour.

We could have gotten a nice hotel room in Manhattan for a night for that cost, rather than a hospital room for one hour.

I highly doubt that hotel room would've had the equipment and staff on hand to handle an emergency situation.

[EliSnow]

I highly doubt that hotel room would've had the equipment and staff on hand to handle an emergency situation.

Maybe, but her situation didn't present as an emergency situation either. Unless someone came in and shot her, she didn't need the equipment or staff for an emergency.

She just needed the bed.

[badmonkey]

Maybe, but her situation didn't present as an emergency situation either. Unless someone came in and shot her, she didn't need the equipment or staff for an emergency.

She just needed the bed.

Are you insane taking your perfectly healthy wife to a hospital? That's what doctors do man. Everybody knows it. Don't you listen to Obama? Doctors sucker you into coming into the hospital where all that equipment is and then they come in and shoot you just so they can take out the bullets and charge you for it. You got soo lucky. I hope you have learned from your mistake.

[The Jays]

Oh man, was that sarcasm?

[epo]

Maybe, but her situation didn't present as an emergency situation either. Unless someone came in and shot her, she didn't need the equipment or staff for an emergency.

She just needed the bed.

Complaining about the hospital fee is kind of ridiculous, but you have discovered an issue.

I would bet in this case she had a physician who is not employed by the hospital and has a practice not on "hospital grounds". The reason the physician saw you was at the hospital was for safety purposes.

However, Medicare legally (as oversight body) requires that the physician bill and the facility charge are done separately. This is viewed not as "one bill" by the insurance company, rather as "multiple bills", which shifts greater cost to the consumer than if it were compiled as one.

[Dude!]

I assumed he was coming from a "takes one to know one" position.

i was
and it is gratifying to hear
that you think mojo is also 'one'

[underdog]

Are you insane taking your perfectly healthy wife to a hospital? That's what doctors do man. Everybody knows it. Don't you listen to Obama? Doctors sucker you into coming into the hospital where all that equipment is and then they come in and shoot you just so they can take out the bullets and charge you for it. You got soo lucky. I hope you have learned from your mistake.

Exactly.

[hanso]

Hardly a murmur arose when Bush cut Medicare/Medicaid on the elderly and children.
But they sure can drum up hell on a plan that is in the works.
We should know too well there is something behind it.

[Syd]

Now is the time to kill Medicare/Medicaid. If government run healthcare kills off old people, why is it covering 90%+ of our elderly?

Same with government run healthcare for our veterans and our elected officials. Imagine how much more healthy they'd be if they had the freedom of choice in healthcare and not having to deal with death panels.

[KatPw]

Now is the time to kill Medicare/Medicaid. If government run healthcare kills off old people, why is it covering 90%+ of our elderly?

Same with government run healthcare for our veterans and our elected officials. Imagine how much more healthy they'd be if they had the freedom of choice in healthcare and not having to deal with death panels.

I hate to say it, but I'm so mad that right now I am so for your suggestion it's not even funny. My parents both died before they reached eligibility age. So they never received the benefits that they spent their working lives paying in to. Yet the money that they paid, and I pay goes to take care of people that are trying their hardest to keep people like me from being able to get health care insurance. They don't give a shit about me, why should I give a shit about keeping them alive? Go ahead, kill grandma. My whole family (grandparents included) are dead, so my obligation of giving a damn about the elderly is officially over. Let them mortgage their houses to pay for their treatment. Let them wipe out their savings to pay for their medications. Let their children sacrifice to take care of their own.
It's all about selfishness, and us younger people can be just as selfish.

[Dude!]

I hate to say it, but I'm so mad that right now I am so for your suggestion it's not even funny. My parents both died before they reached eligibility age. So they never received the benefits that they spent their working lives paying in to. Yet the money that they paid, and I pay goes to take care of people that are trying their hardest to keep people like me from being able to get health care insurance. They don't give a shit about me, why should I give a shit about keeping them alive? Go ahead, kill grandma. My whole family (grandparents included) are dead, so my obligation of giving a damn about the elderly is officially over. Let them mortgage their houses to pay for their treatment. Let them wipe out their savings to pay for their medications. Let their children sacrifice to take care of their own.
It's all about selfishness, and us younger people can be just as selfish.

harsh

[Syd]

I'm not even kidding. If so many people now believe socialized healthcare is so evil and hurts people so much why in the hell is Medicare/Medicaid still around?

If it is so horrific for the general population I don't understand why the people who are most easily hurt depend so dearly upon something that apparently wants them dead.

[Furtherman]

CBS News Sunday Morning had an excellent, in depth analysis with doctors, political analysis and facts about Obama's healthcare reform.

All the talk on socialism is false. What we're hearing in the yelling at town hall meetings, and some posts here, is the frustration of the 47% of people who voted for McCain and the pundits who get paid to oppose Obama taking advantage of that fact and just lying to these people to get them riled up.

An excellent piece that I hope I can find a link for all to see.

What Do We Know About Health Reform? (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/08/16/sunday/main5245168.shtml?tag=contentBody;featuredPost-PE)

"You would have a greater chance of being killed by a Death Star in one of the Star Wars movies than you would being killed by a government-run death panel, which is to say they don't exist," Oberlander said.

Another hot-button issue - taxpayer-funded abortions.

"On the contrary, there is language in the House Energy and Commerce bill that says federal monies cannot be used for abortion," Neas said.

And what about those television ads aimed at the elderly, claiming that seniors may lose their own doctors?

"That is absolutely false," Oberlander said. "In fact, the opposite is true. This legislation is absolutely good for seniors."

[KatPw]

harsh

So? Life's a bitch.

[KatPw]

I'm not even kidding. If so many people now believe socialized healthcare is so evil and hurts people so much why in the hell is Medicare/Medicaid still around?

If it is so horrific for the general population I don't understand why the people who are most easily hurt depend so dearly upon something that apparently wants them dead.
Exactly.

[Syd]

good op-ed by zakaria:

We've seen in recent weeks the twin personalities of the U.S. government. One is impressive, the other deeply worrying. First, the good news: We have increasing evidence that Washington's response to the global financial collapse was effective. Last fall, the financial markets seized up, credit froze and the economy went into a nosedive. Almost every metric by which we judge the economy moved into its darkest territory since the 1930s. And this happened at the worst possible time. A lame-duck U.S. president faced an opposition party in charge of both houses of Congress. It was a recipe for paralysis, bickering and inaction.

In fact, the administration and Congress collaborated fast and well, and within two weeks Congress appropriated a staggering $700 billion to rescue the financial system. As the Bush administration left office, it worked closely with the incoming Obama team, which continued the basic framework of the rescue, modifying some aspects of the Bush programs and adding others. Both groups worked carefully with the Federal Reserve, the lead player in this drama, which acted aggressively and creatively. Democrats such as Barney Frank supported the Bush administration. George W. Bush put aside his ideological blinders and massively intervened in the economy.

As with any successful policy, it is now easy to say that action was unnecessary or overdone. At the time, of course, the dominant criticism was that the rescue effort was too weak -- the banks needed to be nationalized! -- and the fiscal stimulus too small. As with all emergencies, one can always suggest, in retrospect, that more sophisticated strategies could have been taken. The measures that were adopted may lead to other problems over time, such as inflation. But faced with the distinct possibility of an economic depression, Congress, the administration and the Fed worked together and brought stability to the system. In a crisis, they responded. Why? Precisely because it was a crisis.

There is something about America -- the system, the government, the people -- that allows us to react to a crisis with astonishing speed. Think of Pearl Harbor, or even Sept. 11. Whatever one may think of the Bush administration's later strategy, in the weeks after 9/11 both parties came together and crafted important policies -- getting international cooperation in making counterterrorism a top priority, improving safety on airplanes and in airports, tracking terrorists and their money, chasing al-Qaeda. These actions have helped to keep terrorists on the run and continue to make it difficult to plan and execute spectacular attacks.

Now, to see the weakness of the American system, consider the past two weeks and the debacle of the health-care debate. Clearly the U.S. health-care system is on an unsustainable path. If current trends continue -- and there is no indication that they won't -- health care will consume 40 percent of the national economy by 2050. The problem is that this is a slow and steady decline, producing no crisis. As a result, we seem incapable of grappling with it seriously.

It's not as if the problems aren't apparent to everyone, whatever your political persuasion. Costs are rising so fast that every day more than 10,000 Americans lose their insurance coverage. In 1993, 61 percent of small businesses provided health insurance for their employees. Now only 38 percent do. Larger firms face greater health-care costs. Yet, Americans do worse on almost every health measure than most advanced industrial countries, which spend about half as much on health care per person and have proportionately more elderly people.

Meanwhile, the political debate is unreal, with conservatives suggesting that President Obama is endorsing euthanasia and murder boards, and turning America into Russia. (I guess they haven't noticed that Russia isn't communist anymore.) The lack of serious discussion is tragic, because the Democrats' proposals leave much to be desired. They include only a few, vague measures to rein in costs, and the chief one -- a medical board -- assumes (improbably) that Congress will cede massive powers to five unelected people who would have the power to deny people treatments and drugs. The likely scenario is that expanded coverage and new benefits will be enacted, while the cuts and curbs will be pushed off to be tackled another day.

Health care is the nation's most serious long-term problem. Social Security, government pension liabilities, state-government deficits and energy dependence all pose the same issue. Each of these problems is getting worse by the day, yet the political system seems unable to take them on and make major reforms. On these critical issues, America is caught in a downward spiral. It makes you wish for a crisis.

[9mileskid]

glad to see the liberal hippie babyboomers will be the first ones fucked by their own views.

[Syd]

liberal baby boomers that are as liberal as goldwater

[Gvac]

http://germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org/images/highres_00023142%20copy.jpg

[booster11373]

Just sitting back and watching these opponents of so called socialized medicine I have to laugh and wonder how many of them call themselves Christians and would claim America is a Christian nation

[Gvac]

Just sitting back and watching these opponents of so called socialized medicine I have to laugh and wonder how many of them call themselves Christians and would claim America is a Christian nation

http://www.oddpic.com/data/510/medium/jesus-hates-you.jpg

[KatPw]

Just sitting back and watching these opponents of so called socialized medicine I have to laugh and wonder how many of them call themselves Christians and would claim America is a Christian nation

Those Christians would label Jesus a dirty hippie and scream at him to get off their lawns.

[booster11373]

Those Christians would label Jesus a dirty hippie and scream at him to get off their lawns.

GVAC probably thinks Jesus was a cowboy and carried a six shooter on his hip in the old west maybe he solved mysteries and gave sermons on how America kicked ass!!

[Gvac]

GVAC probably thinks Jesus was a cowboy and carried a six shooter on his hip in the old west maybe he solved mysteries and gave sermons on how America kicked ass!!

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[booster11373]

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If he did leave Chicago he should call the show and tell us all how great Mollys cupcakes is

[sailor]

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[KatPw]

GVAC probably thinks Jesus was a cowboy and carried a six shooter on his hip in the old west maybe he solved mysteries and gave sermons on how America kicked ass!!
http://girlinthedoorway.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2006/01/americanjesus.jpg

[west milly Tom]

Just sitting back and watching these opponents of so called socialized medicine I have to laugh and wonder how many of them call themselves Christians and would claim America is a Christian nation



I do and it is. 73 percent of this country according to a Rasmmusen poll consider themselvs Christian.

[TooLowBrow]

I do and it is. 73 percent of this country according to a Rasmmusen poll consider themselvs Christian.

tell leeder, he'll start a poll

[sailor]

tell leeder, he'll start a poll

lleeder rasmussen?

[epo]

liberal baby boomers that are as liberal as goldwater

The baby boomers are seriously a pathetic generation.

[booster11373]

I do and it is. 73 percent of this country according to a Rasmmusen poll consider themselvs Christian.

You and GVAC should start the Jesus was a cowboy church

Now while you may "believe" that the US is a Christian nation you should know that in "fact" it is not

U.S most certainly not founded on Christian principles

A recent letter to the editor claims that The United States was founded on Christian principles. This is simply untrue. The mention of God in the Declaration of Independence is offered as evidence. While the Declaration is a historical document, it is not a legal one. Furthermore, the God mentioned is not specifically Christian because the Declaration's principle author, Thomas Jefferson, was a deist.

The Constitution, the legal underpinning of our nation, is a secular document, making no specific reference to Christianity or any deity. The first amendment actually requires the separation of church and state. Common law, referenced in the seventh amendment, is commonly misattributed to Christian foundations. But the historical record shows that the establishment of common law in England pre-dates the introduction of Christianity by about two hundred years.

Article eleven of The Treaty of Tripoli, ratified by the Senate in 1797, begins with the words "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion…"

The American system of governance doesn't grant special privileges to its Christian majority nor does it abridge any of its rights. Rather it offers equal protection to all regardless of religious persuasion. This pioneering republican form of government, for the first time, protected the rights of the minority from the tyranny of the majority and should be defended by Christians and non-Christians alike.

[west milly Tom]

www.dakotavoice.com/2009/04/poll-81-percent-of-Americans-call-themselves-Christian/

One more...

[epo]

I do and it is. 73 percent of this country according to a Rasmmusen poll consider themselvs Christian.

We are a multi-faith society as the government does not sanction a religion. All christians should be aware of that fact and thankful for it.

[west milly Tom]

You and GVAC should start the Jesus was a cowboy church

Now while you may "believe" that the US is a Christian nation you should know that in "fact" it is not



You're free to believe0and worship however you'd like but it un fact is. The country was undeniably founded on Christian principles. There are many examples ofThis. Wake up.

[sailor]

We are a multi-faith society as the government does not sanction a religion. All christians should be aware of that fact and thankful for it.

why?

[epo]

why?

Would they really want a "state sponsored religion"? Does any religion want that line muddied?

[west milly Tom]

Would they really want a "state sponsored religion"? Does any religion want that line muddied?

agreed, I dont want the state involved in any of my personal business...like my health care.

[Gvac]

agreed, I dont want the state involved in any of my personal business...like my health care.

FACE!!!

[sailor]

Would they really want a "state sponsored religion"? Does any religion want that line muddied?

if it was their religion, why not? if it wasn't theirs, sure, that would stink.

[epo]

agreed, I dont want the state involved in any of my personal business...like my health care.

Remind me of that when you are of Medicare age.

[west milly Tom]

FACE!!!

thanks budday, that means lot coming from you.

[Dude!]

Remind me of that when you are of Medicare age.

if we didn't have Medicare
the seniors would die off pretty fast
just like obama wants them too

abolishing medicare
is the perfect solution to the
'health care crisis'

[KatPw]

if we didn't have Medicare
the seniors would die off pretty fast
just like obama wants them too

abolishing medicare
is the perfect solution to the
'health care crisis'

Get rid of Social Security too. Put your own damn money away in a 401k and/or IRAs to fund your retirement.

[underdog]

www.dakotavoice.com/2009/04/poll-81-percent-of-Americans-call-themselves-Christian/

One more...

Wow, a poll of 1,000 people.

I know about 100 people. I'd say three of them call themselves christian. That means 3% of America is Christian.

[keithy_19]

Get rid of Social Security too. Put your own damn money away in a 401k and/or IRAs to fund your retirement.

By the time I reach the age where I can aquire social security there won't be any money left for me.

[Crispy_Mobile]

abolishing medicare
is the perfect solution to the
'health care crisis'

is this the new "conservative" talking point?

[west milly Tom]

Get rid of Social Security too. Put your own damn money away in a 401k and/or IRAs to fund your retirement.

agreed.

[sailor]

Wow, a poll of 1,000 people.

I know about 100 people. I'd say three of them call themselves christian. That means 3% of America is Christian.

to get 99% confidence level that your results are +-4%, for the us population of 304 million you only need 1040 random samples. here (http://www.surveysystem.com/sscalc.htm)

[underdog]

to get 99% confidence level that your results are +-4%, for the us population of 304 million you only need 1040 random samples. here (http://www.surveysystem.com/sscalc.htm)

That's the craziest thing I've ever seen.

What if you surveyed 1,040 people from Oklahoma? Your numbers would be much, much different than if you surveyed 1,040 people from Manhattan.

[sailor]

That's the craziest thing I've ever seen.

What if you surveyed 1,040 people from Oklahoma? Your numbers would be much, much different than if you surveyed 1,040 people from Manhattan.

yes, and neither of those would be random samples of the us population.

ask epo and he'll tell you it's true. ask mojo and he'll make something up because he still doesn't understand stats.

[underdog]

yes, and neither of those would be random samples of the us population.

You're not a random sample of the us population.

[sailor]

You're not a random sample of the us population.

exactly.

[Syd]

Of that 73% I guarantee no more than maybe 25% can name all of the apostles.

There's a difference between Christian principles and being told by your parents or authority figures what faith you are. Given how much money is involved in evangelicalism there's no wonder the numbers are on the rise in some areas. Proselytizing is the new pyramid scheme.

[underdog]

ask epo and he'll tell you it's true. ask mojo and he'll make something up because he still doesn't understand stats.

They're the same person, silly.

[underdog]

Of that 73% I guarantee no more than maybe 25% can name all of the apostles.

There's a difference between Christian principles and being told by your parents or authority figures what faith you are. Given how much money is involved in evangelicalism there's no wonder the numbers are on the rise in some areas. Proselytizing is the new pyramid scheme.

If 73% of the population is Christian, I would guess more than 71% of them are Christian because mommy and daddy raised them that way.

It's also the reason Glen Beck and Bill O'Reilly are so effective on the right. The people on the right are used to just being told something and just accepting it with no proof or research.

The left protests better, though. Because they're all a bunch of douchebags.

[keithy_19]

Of that 73% I guarantee no more than maybe 25% can name all of the apostles.

There's a difference between Christian principles and being told by your parents or authority figures what faith you are. Given how much money is involved in evangelicalism there's no wonder the numbers are on the rise in some areas. Proselytizing is the new pyramid scheme.


Naming the apostles makes you a Christian?

The government can't make a state religion. That's understood. But if you were to ask all of the country I would pretty much gurantee there are more 'christians' then any other faith, or lack of faith.

[underdog]

The government can't make a state religion. That's understood. But if you were to ask all of the country I would pretty much gurantee there are more 'christians' then any other faith, or lack of faith.

Wow, you're really going out on a limb with that prediction.

[Syd]

Naming the apostles makes you a Christian?

No, however since they were a very important part of the Bible every Christian should be able to name them all. It's not some ecclesiastical nonsense like knowing how many archangels there are for your particular denomination.

[epo]

Wow, you're really going out on a limb with that prediction.

I bet if I look at the sky at approximately noon and there are no clouds...I'll probably see blue.

[sailor]

No, however since they were a very important part of the Bible every Christian should be able to name them all. It's not some ecclesiastical nonsense like knowing how many archangels there are for your particular denomination.

actually, there is not agreement over who the 12 were (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostle_%28Christian%29#The_Twelve_Apostles).

not that this has anything to do with health care.

[booster11373]

My bad for derailing but with so many Christians its funny to see how his teaching are so dismissed by those who say they follow him

Lets just abandon every thing we have accomplished as a society. lets dismantle social security lets get rid of all the pesky regulators at the FDA fuck medicare and medicade, lets just take down the flag, put a sign on the capitol building that says "closed" and a for sale sign on the whitehouse

[epo]

They're the same person, silly.

That's ridiculous. Unlike Mojo, I actually have a job.

[TheMojoPin]

yes, and neither of those would be random samples of the us population.

ask epo and he'll tell you it's true. ask mojo and he'll make something up because he still doesn't understand stats.

I hope you're run over by a truck.

[underdog]

I hope you're run over by a truck.

You and everyone else.

[epo]

You and everyone else.

That's a random sampling I can believe in.

[hammersavage]

Has anyone seen the stories about RAM (remote area medical) services going around the country on the various news programs lately? Just amazing. One of the most damning pieces about the current system that you could possibly see.

And Bill Maher made a great point. The vitriol isn't even coming from the people who have nothing, they are hopeful. It's the people who have, who are crying socialism.

Found the 60 Minutes one:

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/t9JmEHsCv4c&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/t9JmEHsCv4c&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[keithy_19]

That's a random sampling I can believe in.

:lol:

[KatPw]

By the time I reach the age where I can aquire social security there won't be any money left for me.

You are correct. So lets stop funding it, and let the money that is currently in the system run out. Same with medicare, let the program just use up whatever money is currently in it till it's all gone then dismantle the program.

[booster11373]

You are correct. So lets stop funding it, and let the money that is currently in the system run out. Same with medicare, let the program just use up whatever money is currently in it till it's all gone then dismantle the program.

Why stop there? Conservatives love to cry about how bad Government is, lets just dismantle the whole thing

[KatPw]

Has anyone seen the stories about RAM (remote area medical) services going around the country on the various news programs lately? Just amazing. One of the most damning pieces about the current system that you could possibly see.

And Bill Maher made a great point. The vitriol isn't even coming from the people who have nothing, they are hopeful. It's the people who have, who are crying socialism.

Found the 60 Minutes one:

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/t9JmEHsCv4c&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/t9JmEHsCv4c&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Thanks for finding this and putting it up Hammersavage. It's disturbing that an organization that does most of it's work in third world countries has to come into the country with "the best health care in the world" and provide services to our citizens. I wouldn't have been surprised to read about RAM doing work in places like the Appalachians and other severely poor areas that lack heath care providers. But the fact that they have to serve all areas (urban, suburban and rural/remote rural) really highlights glaring problems in our country.

[KatPw]

Why stop there? Conservatives love to cry about how bad Government is, lets just dismantle the whole thing

Well we have to start somewhere, and those two directly come out of all of our paychecks every week so I think those should be shut down ASAP. Then we will go after the rest.

[Misteriosa]

i know its a little longer that your standard sound byte (and im not sure if its already been posted) but bill moyers did a great piece (again) on the health care issue this past friday.

here it is:

http://video.pbs.org/video/1215802531/chapter/1/search/bill%20moyers

[KatPw]

i know its a little longer that your standard sound byte (and im not sure if its already been posted) but bill moyers did a great piece (again) on the health care issue this past friday.

here it is:

http://video.pbs.org/video/1215802531/chapter/1/search/bill%20moyers

So that guy that had the gun strapped to him is also an admirer of White Supremacists? I'm disgusted with people.
Another great piece from Moyers. We need more people like him in journalism. Sadly I think his kind are gone for good.

[Misteriosa]

i think i may be the only person who watches pbs on demand... and it will be a sad sad day when he passes. i can only hope david brancaccio, maria hinojosa, etc. can keep it up to his standards.

[KatPw]

i think i may be the only person who watches pbs on demand... and it will be a sad sad day when he passes. i can only hope david brancaccio, maria hinojosa, etc. can keep it up to his standards.

You know I watch it too. And so does Rich so that is at least three of us.

[Misteriosa]

You know I watch it too. And so does Rich so that is at least three of us.

well i knew about you since im sure that in a past life we were related :tongue:

but i didnt know about rich... thats encouraging :thumbup:

[Dude!]

So that guy that had the gun strapped to him is also an admirer of White Supremacists? I'm disgusted with people.
Another great piece from Moyers. We need more people like him in journalism. Sadly I think his kind are gone for good.

Bill Moyers is a phony
have you ever listened to
the LBJ tapes on C-Span?

Moyers worked for LBJ
and is on the tapes quite a bit

when talking about civil rights
every other word out of Moyer's mouth
was the "n word"

'a leopard don't change his spots'
and Moyers is a racist pig

[KatPw]

well i knew about you since im sure that in a past life we were related :tongue:

but i didnt know about rich... thats encouraging :thumbup:

We must be cosmic twins or something. Of course you got all the melanin. Give some back so I don't look so see-through please :laugh:

[KatPw]

Bill Moyers is a phony
have you ever listened to
the LBJ tapes on C-Span?

Moyers worked for LBJ
and is on the tapes quite a bit

when talking about civil rights
every other word out of Moyer's mouth
was the "n word"

'a leopard don't change his spots'
and Moyers is a racist pig

http://images1.fanpop.com/images/image_uploads/Citation-Needed-wikipedia-819731_500_271.jpg
And by citation needed I don't mean telling someone to go search out the LBJ tapes. I've seen him labeled an anti-Semite before, but never a racist in the regard you are talking about.

[Dude!]

http://images1.fanpop.com/images/image_uploads/Citation-Needed-wikipedia-819731_500_271.jpg
And by citation needed I don't mean telling someone to go search out the LBJ tapes. I've seen him labeled an anti-Semite before, but never a racist in the regard you are talking about.

well, it is a bit tough
to link to specific tapes
as i listened to them in the car
on c-span

here is a link to the LBJ tapes
that you can listen to online
these and the nixon tapes
are the best thing i ever heard
on the radio:

http://www.c-span.org/lbj/0307.asp

i can't search for keywords
within a tape, and the c-span
site does not have written transcripts

i heard it though
and i know the truth
and that's all i care about

[hammersavage]

Thanks for finding this and putting it up Hammersavage. It's disturbing that an organization that does most of it's work in third world countries has to come into the country with "the best health care in the world" and provide services to our citizens. I wouldn't have been surprised to read about RAM doing work in places like the Appalachians and other severely poor areas that lack heath care providers. But the fact that they have to serve all areas (urban, suburban and rural/remote rural) really highlights glaring problems in our country.

how about Los Angeles? Hundreds and hundreds lined up there.

i think i may be the only person who watches pbs on demand...

that's so hot

[TheMojoPin]

I feel confident enough to declare that this health care reform initiative is a complete failure and that Obama has dropped the ball HUGE.

Absolutely embarassing. How hard is it to sell regulation and a public option to reform the private options? This is Harry & Louise all over again. Modern Democrats are the biggest saps in the world.

[sailor]

I feel confident enough to declare that this health care reform initiative is a complete failure and that Obama has dropped the ball HUGE.

Absolutely embarassing. How hard is it to sell regulation and a public option to reform the private options? This is Harry & Louise all over again. Modern Democrats are the biggest saps in the world.

were those the "tell them about the discount, harry!" ads?

[TheMojoPin]

I hate you so very much.

[Dude!]

were those the "tell them about the discount, harry!" ads?

no, i seem to remember
brad pitt with two older gals

[sailor]

please, that was a good one.

[epo]

I feel confident enough to declare that this health care reform initiative is a complete failure and that Obama has dropped the ball HUGE.

Absolutely embarassing. How hard is it to sell regulation and a public option to reform the private options? This is Harry & Louise all over again. Modern Democrats are the biggest saps in the world.

Look no further than Harry Reid.

[epo]

Democrats Seem Set to Go Alone on a Health Bill (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/19/health/policy/19repubs.html?_r=4&hp)

Given hardening Republican opposition to Congressional health care proposals, Democrats now say they see little chance of the minority’s cooperation in approving any overhaul, and are increasingly focused on drawing support for a final plan from within their own ranks.

Top Democrats said Tuesday that their go-it-alone view was being shaped by what they saw as Republicans’ purposely strident tone against health care legislation during this month’s Congressional recess, as well as remarks by leading Republicans that current proposals were flawed beyond repair.

Rahm Emanuel, the White House chief of staff, said the heated opposition was evidence that Republicans had made a political calculation to draw a line against any health care changes, the latest in a string of major administration proposals that Republicans have opposed.

“The Republican leadership,” Mr. Emanuel said, “has made a strategic decision that defeating President Obama’s health care proposal is more important for their political goals than solving the health insurance problems that Americans face every day.”

And who said Obama didn't have a set?

[keithy_19]

Oh Emanuel. You and your political speak. Well played.

And it surprised me how they were giving up things pretty easily. I'd think Obama would be even stronger considering this was influential in getting him elected.

[Furtherman]

Rep. Barney Frank lashed out at protester who held a poster depicting President Barack Obama with a Hitler-style mustache during a heated town hall meeting on federal health care reform.

"On what planet do you spend most of your time?" Frank asked the woman, who had stepped up to the podium at a southeastern Massachusetts senior center to ask why Frank supports what she called a Nazi policy.

"Ma'am, trying to have a conversation with you would be like trying to argue with a dining room table. I have no interest in doing it," Frank replied.

He continued by saying her ability to deface an image of the president and express her views "is a tribute to the First Amendment that this kind of vile, contemptible nonsense is so freely propagated."

Frank, who chairs the House Financial Services Committee, sought to assure more than 500 people attending the rowdy meeting that the average taxpayer wouldn't be hurt by plans currently under consideration in Congress.

Some of those attending the meeting organized by the Democratic Town Committee of Dartmouth shouted and booed as Frank and others addressed the crowd.

At one point, Frank asked the crowd: "Which one of you wants to yell next?"

Nice Barney!

[foodcourtdruide]

Democrats Seem Set to Go Alone on a Health Bill (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/19/health/policy/19repubs.html?_r=4&hp)



And who said Obama didn't have a set?

“The Republican leadership,” Mr. Emanuel said, “has made a strategic decision that defeating President Obama’s health care proposal is more important for their political goals than solving the health insurance problems that Americans face every day.”

This is 100% true. I would love to hear republicans on this board argue the validity of this point.

[foodcourtdruide]

Oh Emanuel. You and your political speak. Well played.

And it surprised me how they were giving up things pretty easily. I'd think Obama would be even stronger considering this was influential in getting him elected.

Are you saying Obama has not attempted bi-partisanship with his health care plan?

[underdog]

Nice Barney!

Here's the video :

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/nYlZiWK2Iy8&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0xcc2550&color2=0xe87a9f"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/nYlZiWK2Iy8&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0xcc2550&color2=0xe87a9f" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[hammersavage]

Here's the video :

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/nYlZiWK2Iy8&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0xcc2550&color2=0xe87a9f"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/nYlZiWK2Iy8&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0xcc2550&color2=0xe87a9f" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

awesome. i love that homo

[west milly Tom]

Its more about an organic opposition to the "public option" than democrat blunders. People, outside this forum, just do not support this. IMO this won't totally fail. The democrats still have enough votes to force legislation through and therefore we should see some version of government expansion and really that's all they need. Once they get a part passed they will just add on until we have full socialist medicine here. They have changed strategy from trying to ram a massive change down the throat of the American public and now they are intending to parse it and slip it in bit by bit. Tricky tricky.
http://upload.moldova.org/movie/movies/m/mr_deeds/thumbnails/tn2_mr_deeds_2.jpg

[foodcourtdruide]

People, outside this forum, just do not support this.

I'm pretty sure that some people outisde this forum support Obama's plan.

[Furtherman]

Once they get a part passed they will just add on until we have full socialist medicine here.

No they won't.

[underdog]

Its more about an organic opposition to the "public option" than democrat blunders. People, outside this forum, just do not support this. IMO this won't totally fail. The democrats still have enough votes to force legislation through and therefore we should see some version of government expansion and really that's all they need. Once they get a part passed they will just add on until we have full socialist medicine here. They have changed strategy from trying to ram a massive change down the throat of the American public and now they are intending to parse it and slip it in bit by bit. Tricky tricky.
http://upload.moldova.org/movie/movies/m/mr_deeds/thumbnails/tn2_mr_deeds_2.jpg

Exactly.

[TheMojoPin]

Its more about an organic opposition to the "public option" than democrat blunders. People, outside this forum, just do not support this. IMO this won't totally fail. The democrats still have enough votes to force legislation through and therefore we should see some version of government expansion and really that's all they need. Once they get a part passed they will just add on until we have full socialist medicine here. They have changed strategy from trying to ram a massive change down the throat of the American public and now they are intending to parse it and slip it in bit by bit. Tricky tricky.
http://upload.moldova.org/movie/movies/m/mr_deeds/thumbnails/tn2_mr_deeds_2.jpg

"Socialist" health care has not been proposed by Obama. It was not proposed by Clinton. Everyone is acting like they're proposing the Canadian system when what they're proposing is closer to the current German system: private choices coupled with a public option and government regulation. You'll no doubt still flip out over this since you likely see no difference between regulation (which we have with pretty much everything) and total control.

[sailor]

Here's the video :

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/nYlZiWK2Iy8&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0xcc2550&color2=0xe87a9f"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/nYlZiWK2Iy8&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0xcc2550&color2=0xe87a9f" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

i prefer the stuff comparing bush to hitler. much better crafted.

<object width="445" height="364"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/6tTQ34y4Ww0&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0x402061&color2=0x9461ca&border=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/6tTQ34y4Ww0&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0x402061&color2=0x9461ca&border=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="445" height="364"></embed></object>

[Zorro]

“The Republican leadership,” Mr. Emanuel said, “has made a strategic decision that defeating President Obama’s health care proposal is more important for their political goals than solving the health insurance problems that Americans face every day.”

This is 100% true. I would love to hear republicans on this board argue the validity of this point.

Ummm....got filibuster proof majorities in both houses of Congress and you control the Presidency...so, just how can Republicans defeat anything?

[keithy_19]

Are you saying Obama has not attempted bi-partisanship with his health care plan?

I think he has. But, I don't think that either side will agree with it. When Obama said he was dropping stuff, other democrats got mad. So, rather quickly, he jumped back on board with it.

[Furtherman]

When Obama said he was dropping stuff, other democrats got mad. So, rather quickly, he jumped back on board with it.

Obama never said he was dropping stuff.

[angrymissy]

This guy rules.

http://images.huffingtonpost.com/gen/99008/original.jpg

[underdog]

Obama never said he was dropping stuff.

Bombs.

Yo.

[Misteriosa]

someone call fox news...

Obama Endorses Socialized Medicine!
Wait till the hard right finds out.

By Timothy Noah
Posted Tuesday, Aug. 18, 2009, at 5:54 PM ET


The White House may be hedging on its insistence that health care reform contain a public option, but in an Aug. 17 speech, President Obama endorsed something far more radical: a scheme in which hospitals and doctors work directly for the government. A concept less "uniquely American" would be difficult to imagine. Yet this collectivist arrangement is already in place and has been in one form or another since 1811!

It falls to me to sound the klaxon because Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck are too fainthearted to criticize the president's enthusiasm for a plan even more socialistic than Canada's or France's dread single-payer systems. Indeed, when Obama last spring briefly considered a free-enterprise alternative, Limbaugh attacked him for being stingy!

"We're dramatically increasing funding for veterans health care," the president told a Veterans of Foreign Wars convention.

This includes hundreds of millions of dollars to serve veterans in rural areas, as well as the unique needs of our growing number of women veterans. We're restoring access to V.A. health care for a half-million veterans who lost their eligibility in recent years—our Priority 8 veterans.

Priority 8 veterans have injuries that aren't service-related. Some of these freeloaders have incomes approaching $40,000. And get this: They became eligible by working for the very same government on whose teat they now suck. Where's the outrage?
Obama continued:

And since there's been so much misinformation out there about health insurance reform, let me say this: One thing that reform won't change is veterans' health care. No one is going to take away your benefits—that is the plain and simple truth. [Applause.] We're expanding access to your health care, not reducing it. [Applause.]

You want to know what really burns my butt? The health care these veterans will receive has been certified by the New England Journal of Medicine, the Rand Corp., and the National Committee for Quality Assurance to exceed in quality the care available to paying customers in more authentically American private-sector fee-for-service hospitals. The VA hospital system's mere existence is an affront to everything true patriots hold dear. That it manages to offer an emphatically successful model for socialized medicine in the United States insults the very principles on which our republic was founded.

Quick, somebody tell Betsy McCaughey. This could be bigger than death panels.


http://www.slate.com/id/2225618/

hahahahaha! :tongue:

[Syd]

The last time a purely socialist healthcare system was proposed was by Nixon. And before that, Eisenhower.

[Furtherman]

This guy rules.

http://images.huffingtonpost.com/gen/99008/original.jpg

That's hilarious.

Term Limits Now? Has 4 years been been deemed too long?

Well, after the last administration....

[badmonkey]

That's hilarious.

Term Limits Now? Has 4 years been been deemed too long?

Well, after the last administration....

I think he means the congress.

What planetary government are do you waste your votes on?

Are you a dining room table? If you are, I am informing you now that I have no interest in arguing with you.

Good day sir.

[Furtherman]

I think he means the congress.

HE's got a nice rack then.

[badmonkey]

HE's got a nice rack then.

If it was that nice, I'd have remembered she wasn't a dude.

[Gvac]

HE's got a nice rack then.

And cankles! :surrender:

[foodcourtdruide]

Ummm....got filibuster proof majorities in both houses of Congress and you control the Presidency...so, just how can Republicans defeat anything?

They could attempt to be a part of the conversation instead of just disagreeing with everything in an insane way.

[Dan 'Hampton]

They could attempt to be a part of the conversation instead of just disagreeing with everything in an insane way.

That's politics. It's been that way for the last 10 years.

[foodcourtdruide]

That's politics. It's been that way for the last 10 years.

Disagree. It's not like the Democrats disagreed with the Patriot Act because they believed our government was behind 9/11.

[Dan 'Hampton]

Disagree. It's not like the Democrats disagreed with the Patriot Act because they believed our government was behind 9/11.

You're right, they were for it (minus a few) before they were against it. We need to blow this thing up.

[sr71blackbird]

She's all for it


http://media1.break.com/dnet/media/2009/8/89%20Mustachioed%20Lady.jpg

[underdog]

She's all for it


http://media1.break.com/dnet/media/2009/8/89%20Mustachioed%20Lady.jpg

She's probably actually not for it.

[foodcourtdruide]

You're right, they were for it (minus a few) before they were against it. We need to blow this thing up.

Sadly, there was no huge opposition to it initially because america would have hung anyone who remotely opposed the president for about 2 years.

However, at no point were 9/11 truthers given the credibility or the stage that birthers or the "everytime we pay taxes an obama nazi gets their wings" crowd.

Edit: sorry, I should say I totally don't give the democrats a pass for not attacking the patriot act. They totally fuckwd up.

[epo]

Sadly, there was no huge opposition to it initially because america would have hung anyone who remotely opposed the president for about 2 years.

However, at no point were 9/11 truthers given the credibility or the stage that birthers or the "everytime we pay taxes an obama nazi gets their wings" crowd.

Edit: sorry, I should say I totally don't give the democrats a pass for not attacking the patriot act. They totally fuckwd up.

One vote:

http://blog.mpl.org/nowatmpl/feingold.jpg

[nukinfuts]

I don't want to imply that all people without health insurance are just bums that want to live off the government. I do understand that a lot of people are working hard and are not able to afford it or they aren't eligible because of preexisting conditions or they aren't full time. My biggest problem is that I want my health coverage left alone. I would rather pay higher taxes to support a voucher for uninsured individuals to purchase health insurance instead of this public plan. Health care does need to change but this bill was thrown together and a lot of our representatives admit to not reading it. I wouldn't sign a legal document without reading it so why would they vote for one of the largest gov actions in the past 100 years without reading it? I am a Republican but I am equally irked with both parties right now. There is a lot of misleading information coming from both sides and as the average middle class person it really shakes my faith in the ability of these people to work for the best of the people the work for...us. So many have lost so much with this recession only to watch bailouts and free money for cars and to make anyone feel like one more hand is going in their pocket is too much. I would love a nonpartisan translation of the house bill and it would be great if people would stop acting like assholes in these meetings and stick to facts. There should be a better way of doing this and I think the federal government is not qualified to put this together. Look at the waste in other gov programs someone always has a way around the system. Bottom line is that I hate to see people struggle to pay for health care but they need a more marketable plan.

[TheMojoPin]

If you're happy with your private health care and your doctors nothing would change for you.

[Suspect Chin]

If you're happy with your private health care and your doctors nothing would change for you.

What about our taxes increasing?

[foodcourtdruide]

What about our taxes increasing?

And less people needlessly dying due to lack of health care?

[Suspect Chin]

And less people needlessly dying due to lack of health care?

If you care so much about your fellow man, why don't you donate your time and money to helping them? Why should I be forced to care about strangers?

[Suspect Chin]

And less people needlessly dying due to lack of health care?

Let me rephrase that, why should I be told how my money must be spent to help strangers? I should be able to decide for myself which charities to donate to. Furthermore, people would probably be more likely (and more financially able) to donate to others if they had control over where the money went.

[foodcourtdruide]

If you care so much about your fellow man, why don't you donate your time and money to helping them? Why should I be forced to care about strangers?

I don't want to live in a countey where 10's of millions of poor people have to count on the charity of the wealthy to stay alive.

Its not necessarily about caring about strangers, which I guess I do, but about maintaining a functioning society.

[HBox]

If you care so much about your fellow man, why don't you donate your time and money to helping them? Why should I be forced to care about strangers?

Because most of us couldn't afford to treat a serious ailment out of pocket for ourselves, let alone someone else.