The 2008 Presidential Race

[Dirtybird12]

heres a link to the story (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22913001/)

[K.C.]

Well, Edwards is officialy out.

I thought he ran a good campaign. He clearly won most of the debates, his message actually kind of changed the talking points of the race for both Clinton and Obama (especially Obama), and considering he had no political office, hadn't been in the Senate since 2005, and was part of the losing ticket in '04, I'm a little surprised he did as well as he did...so it's a credit to his staff and skills.

There's a few concrete reasons why he didn't play as well in '08:
1) Obviously, this is a much a stronger field than '04. The Clintons have been the stars of the party for almost 20 years, and Obama-mania swept through the country immediately after that '04 convention speech.

2) It is very VERY VERY difficult to wage a populist, anti-corporate corruption campaign in this country and get favorable media coverage and endorsements from fellow politicians.

3) Populism is a very difficult message to define in sound bytes and stock lines when it comes to the details. Sure, the 'two Americas' and 'working families' lines are easy enough, but it's much more difficult a message to get across when you get into specifics. And that handicapped him vs. Obama's simple 'change' and Hillary's simple 'experience' messages.

4) He opted for Federal Funding...a very commendable move, but it handicapped him severely in terms of campaign funds.



All that said, he did a pretty good job...had he stayed in through Super Tuesday, I probably would have voted for him in my primary.

Not sure how this fallout effects the current race. Let's assume he has 15% of the electorate. My guess is it probably breaks slightly for Obama. Maybe 8% for him, 7% for Hillary.

Edwards drew a lot of union support, which as I've said 800,000 times generally falls in line with the front runner once their candidate is out. But at the same time, there's such disdain for Hillary right now that Obama will pick up some anti-Clinton votes.

Either way, I'd like to see him as the Attorney General in a Clinton or Obama White House.

[Dude!]

Sure, the 'two Americas'

actually this year the electorate is looking for unity = one america
two americas is exactly the wrong message in 2008

[K.C.]

actually this year the electorate is looking for unity = one america
two americas is exactly the wrong message in 2008

That's a common misconception about the 'Two Americas' message that I hear.

People always write off populism as "oh, it's class warfare pitting rich against poor."

The whole point of the 'Two Americas' argument is to acknowledge that it's very different in this country depending on what your background is and to get to a point where it becomes one united America where everyone feels like they have a stake.

It's very unity driven.



And you're right...this is a very unity driven election...at least until Hillary wins the nomination. Then it will be the war of all wars.

[AKA]

The Dems tied the R's in turnout

All the hand-wringing commentators last night, who didn't understand why Hillary would be touting this as a victory, seemed to be deliberately missing this point - the Dems need Florida (for November) more than she needed a perception of winning something (last night), imo, and she needed to be there.

[K.C.]

I was very curious what the fall out from McCain's victory last night would be, so I listened to a lot of the pundits, and talk radio today, and watched this Republican debate tonight, and then...something kind of struck me.

The pundits, the blogs, the talk radio hosts bear a huge responsibility in putting McCain in the front-runner position he's in today.

They made a decision to prop up Fred '2nd worst candidacy ever (Giuliani is #1)' Thompson for so long and keep him in the race in South Carolina.

It's pretty much a fact that Thompson cost Mike Huckabee that state.

If McCain lost South Carolina to Huckabee, this would be a much MUCH different race today. His candidacy would essentially be over, because he wouldn't have won Florida if he had lost South Carolina.


And then they'd be looking at a Romney/Huckabee race, which would have greatly favored Romney, or a Romney/Huckabee/Giuliani (McCain falling apart may have boosted Rudy to win Florida), which still would have favored Romney.


So in the end, all of this bitching by these loud voices on the right about McCain is almost a direct result of them propping up Grandpa Fred when it was completely obvious that:

a) he was never going to win
b) he pretty much showed no interest in campaigning.

As someone who's not really invested in the Republican Primary, it's kind of sweet to watch.

[Knowledged_one]

I may just have to reconsider this Obama guy

http://www.washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080131/NATION/896961936/1001

[epo]

That's a common misconception about the 'Two Americas' message that I hear.

People always write off populism as "oh, it's class warfare pitting rich against poor."

The whole point of the 'Two Americas' argument is to acknowledge that it's very different in this country depending on what your background is and to get to a point where it becomes one united America where everyone feels like they have a stake.

It's very unity driven.

And you're right...this is a very unity driven election...at least until Hillary wins the nomination. Then it will be the war of all wars.

I would agree with you that the "Two Americas" theme was unity driven, but rarely did he get to complete it with the "One America" finish the way he did in yesterday's speech to drop out of the race.

If he could have reframed it into a "We need to build One America" message it might have gotten a lot more traction.

[epo]

All the hand-wringing commentators last night, who didn't understand why Hillary would be touting this as a victory, seemed to be deliberately missing this point - the Dems need Florida (for November) more than she needed a perception of winning something (last night), imo, and she needed to be there.

The Democrats do need Florida in the fall, but Hillary REALLY needed to make the conversation about her. Don't doubt for one second that Clinton was being totally self-serving about that one. Think about the news cycle:

Saturday: Obama whips her ass.
Sunday: Bill makes the Jesse Jackson comment.
Monday: Ted Kennedy endorses Obama.

She needed Tuesday. What hurt her was Edwards dropping out very early on Wednesday morning. It changed the topic from Clinton winning to "where are Edwards voters going"?

[Zorro]

Hillary was endorsed by Maxine Waters...

Just a thought, but it seems like those endorsing Obama are already out of power or have nothing to lose. Hillary's endorsements seem to be coming from people that would like a job in a future administration and are betting on Hillary.

[K.C.]

Minnesota Public Radio poll has:

Clinton - 40%
Obama - 33%

Again, the Edwards effect hasn't been figured into these polls yet. He was pulling 12% in this Minnesota poll.


I think it's very legitimate to be optimistic if you're an Obama supporter. He still has an uphill battle, but he's gaining ground everywhere, on everyday. A good debate performance tonight could help him pull ahead.

The latest national poll was Clinton- 43%, Obama - 39%



InsiderAdvantage Georgia Poll
Obama - 52%
Clinton - 36%


That is a HUGE number for him there.

InsiderAdvantage Tennessee Poll

Clinton - 59%
Obama - 26%

That is a HUGE number for Hillary there.


She's still performing well overall, but she's slipping in key states.

[epo]

I do think Hillary does have a nice advantage come next Tuesday: The early voters.

Data out of Florida had alot of the votes coming in the form of mail-in ballots. That type of voting naturally favors the early front-runners (read: Hillary). Her numbers were fabulous from those people, but day-of voters swung 38-32 towards Obama.

This tells me that Obama supporters have great opportunity, but need to survive Super Tuesday and keep the fight going. The danger is that studies show that 50% of California voters do so early.

Of course in yesterday's stump speeches she stressed voting early. Why wouldn't she?

[Knowledged_one]

I heard a stat saying Hillary is leading in 20 of the 22 states on Super Tuesday

[epo]

I heard a stat saying Hillary is leading in 20 of the 22 states on Super Tuesday

If those are numbers from as late as this past Saturday morning, I totally believe that. Events and momentum are definitely not in her favor at the moment though.

A perfect example of that moment is Connecticut. In November she had a 27 pt lead. In early January she had a 14 pt lead. As of Sunday, they were tied. Link to polling here (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/ct/connecticut_democratic_primary-273.html).

If Obama can survive Super Duper Tuesday, he could be in good shape.

[K.C.]

I heard a stat saying Hillary is leading in 20 of the 22 states on Super Tuesday

She was...not anymore, although she still has some sizeable leads, although not all of the polls are up to date within the last couple days, so read into it what you will.

I think it's safe to say that given the momentum swing, the places where Clinton doesn't have double-digit leads are probably in play.

This is the breakdown:

Alabama- Obama +5%
Alaska - no data
American Samoa - no data
Arizona - Clinton +10%
Arkansas - no data
California - Tie (technically Clinton +3%, within the margin of error)
Colorado - Tie (technically Obama +2%, within the margin of error)
Connecticut - Tie (literally, at 40% a piece)
Delaware - no data
Democrats Abroad - no data
Georgia - Obama +16%
Idaho - no data
Illinois - Obama +29%
Kansas - Clinton +5%
Massachusettes - Clinton +6%
Minnesota - Clinton +7%
Missouri - Clinton +19%
New Jersey - Clinton +17%
New York - Clinton +28%
North Dakota - no data
Oklahoma - Clinton +25%
Tennessee - Clinton +33%
Utah - no data


So, I'd say factoring in polling, general feeling, and endorsements:

Strong Clinton: Arkansas, Missouri, New Jersey, New York, Oklahoma, Tennessee
Edge to Clinton: Arizona, Tennessee, Minnesota

Strong Obama: Illinois, Georgia
Edge to Obama: Alabama, Alaska, North Dakota, Idaho (all three reportedly have strong Obama presences on the ground), American Samoa, Democrats Abroad

True Toss-Ups: California, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Kansas, Massachusettes, Utah



And remember, this is proportional to percent in each state, so unless one candidate runs away with 16 of 22, or something along those lines, this thing will likely go on after Super Tuesday.

[K.C.]

One last thing to consider is that if this race is very close to the end, Super Delgates could be the deciding factor.

Hillary has the lead in them right now, but:

a)Super Delegates are not set in stone, she could lose support if people fall out of favor with her tactics (i.e. Kennedy)
b) If Edwards can (or chooses to) deliver his delegates to Obama, they're basically tied right now, with Super Delegates factored in. Edwards could still play a big part when all is said and done.

[Zorro]

KC I've really enjoyed your insighful commentary, but I just can't see Hillary losing this thing. She's a shoo-in for NY and NJ...seems solid in California and Mass... It's been fun watching Obama, but I believe after next Tue his "Hill" too climb will be insurmountable

[epo]

One last thing to consider is that if this race is very close to the end, Super Delgates could be the deciding factor.

Hillary has the lead in them right now, but:

a)Super Delegates are not set in stone, she could lose support if people fall out of favor with her tactics (i.e. Kennedy)
b) If Edwards can (or chooses to) deliver his delegates to Obama, they're basically tied right now, with Super Delegates factored in. Edwards could still play a big part when all is said and done.

The Super Delegates are an interesting situation, but let me say this: If Obama gets more regular delegates & Hillary wins the nomination on the power of Super Delegates, the party will implode.

[sailor]

The Super Delegates are an interesting situation, but let me say this: If Obama gets more regular delegates & Hillary wins the nomination on the power of Super Delegates, the party will implode.

i think it would be too confusing for the majority of folk to be truly offended.

[epo]

i think it would be too confusing for the majority of folk to be truly offended.

Really? I would think the story would be this:

"A majority of citizens voted for X, but the insiders think Y. The insiders win."

It would be a public relations nightmare on a colossal scale.

[HBox]

Really? I would think the story would be this:

"A majority of citizens voted for X, but the insiders think Y. The insiders win."

It would be a public relations nightmare on a colossal scale.

I guess THAT'S how they will fuck up all their momentum.

Seriously though if that actually happened I think Hillary is smart enough to know she wouldn't have a chance and just give it to Obama. If she took the nomination like that it would put a humongous fucking exclamation mark on all of the negative preconceptions people have about her. And the Republcians would hammer that relentlessly. Not to mention the black vote would probably stay home in record numbers. The Democrats might lose them for a very long time. She'd have no chance to win and she'd know that.

[sailor]

Really? I would think the story would be this:

"A majority of citizens voted for X, but the insiders think Y. The insiders win."

It would be a public relations nightmare on a colossal scale.

i can see that, but i don't think it would be presented in such a concise manner. also, like everything in our society today, it would blow over quickly. people have no long-term memory anymore. heck, clinton won new hampshire but received less delegates than obama and no one seems to care.

also, has this never happened before (see, i have no long-term memory, myself)? you'd imagine it would eventually happen in a close nomination race. also, other than members of the DNC aren't they all elected officials? that's a lot better than if the superdelegates were all unelected party insiders.

i'm ramblin' but i have too many thoughts on this all running thru my poor little head.

[TheMojoPin]

seems solid in California and Mass...

Hillary was leading in those states by double figures. Now she either barely leads or they're essentially tied...plus, the latest polls don't take in Kennedy's official backing of Obama. That all but gives him Mass..

[K.C.]

In terms of the game of perception, Obama needs to win California. Even if it's just by one percentage point.

In terms of delegates, if he holds his states, and picks of California, Conneticut, Massachusettes, and Colorado, he's in good shape I would think.



This race is almost a lock to continue on after Tuesday, no matter what.

[thejives]

I've heard rumblings that Edwards will endorse... any word on that?

[high fly]

This is a good time to be listening to right-wing radio.
The McCain hate is at fever pitch and caller after caller is saying that on election day, if the choice is between Hillary and McCain, they will stay home.


It's cracking me up to see them deluding themselves into thinking "Rhymes With" Mitt Romney is a true-blue conservative.


I hope Ron Paul stays in it to the bitter end.
His fans frustrate the hell out of right-wing hosts who are unable to recognize Paul is the most conservative of them all.
They let Paul's opposition to the Iraq war cloud their thinking which doesn't recognize the far left Wilsonian agenda of the Bush administration anyways..........

[Ritalin]

LETS GO OBAMA

(clap clap clapclap)

Big showdown tonight. Do they play it safe and hold on to their numbers and pray, or does one of them go for the kill if they get the chance?

I think Hillary's going to come out swinging. It's her MO, and I think she has to feel a little desperate. She's been planning to be president for a long time now, and it could all slip away tonight.

Right now it's 21 minutes before the start of the debate. I can't imagine the pressure they both feel right now. Holy shit.

[Bulldogcakes]

This is a good time to be listening to right-wing radio.
The McCain hate is at fever pitch and caller after caller is saying that on election day, if the choice is between Hillary and McCain, they will stay home.


Why are you as a Liberal so concerned with whats being said on Right wing talk radio? If anything, McCain's success is evidence of how irrelevant it's become, even among the Republican base that shows up for these primaries. They can say whatever they want, and so can Ron Paul. If McCain ends up winning, all they've done is marginalize themselves further.

[epo]

LETS GO OBAMA

(clap clap clapclap)

Big showdown tonight. Do they play it safe and hold on to their numbers and pray, or does one of them go for the kill if they get the chance?

I think Hillary's going to come out swinging. It's her MO, and I think she has to feel a little desperate. She's been planning to be president for a long time now, and it could all slip away tonight.

Right now it's 21 minutes before the start of the debate. I can't imagine the pressure they both feel right now. Holy shit.

Very, very safe on both sides so far. :blink:

[thejives]

I'm watching on cnn.com/live and they have this fucking red line that goes way too hight for Clinton every time she talks.

Does nobody on this planed see how fake she is?

[high fly]

Why are you as a Liberal so concerned with whats being said on Right wing talk radio? If anything, McCain's success is evidence of how irrelevant it's become, even among the Republican base that shows up for these primaries. They can say whatever they want, and so can Ron Paul. If McCain ends up winning, all they've done is marginalize themselves further.

I don't do it or anything else "as a Liberal."
In fact, on a number of issues I take a conservative line.

I tune in to several right-wing radio shows because I have noticed a pattern that makes posting on boards like this more fun.

The pattern is the talking points go out from the White House to Limpbaugh and Manatee, who then play along and repeat them verbatim.
The next day, your second-tier right-wingers, your Glenn Becks, your Laura Ingrahams, your Mark Levins will pick up the line and repeat it verbatim.
It usually takes a couple of days, but eventually after plenty of repitition, the exact same phrases and reasoning will appear on message boards.
By then, I have amassed plenty of contrary information as well as noticed what the radio hosts leave out.

By taking a line the hosts don't address, the righties on boards like this get terribly flustered, much to the amusement of us all.....




P.S. I welcome the marginalization of the extreme right-wing fringe that has taken over the Republican Party. Our country is better off for it.

[scottinnj]

The conservative talk show hosts are stumping for Romney, that cannot be debated. But only some of them. There are others who seem to be pragmatic, McCain is better then Hillary (supreme court nominees, taxes, gun control) and that train of thought will seed its way to the base. If Hillary gets the nomination, that will unite the Republican Party to vote for McCain better then any other leader in the party can do.
I feel if Barack gets nominated, ernough independents will go with him because of his inspiring messages of unity and hope. I think that is what most Americans are looking for now, a charismatic leader and an end to the partisanship.

[Bulldogcakes]

THe race I'm hoping for at this point is McCain-Obama. That would be the greatest contrast in terms of age, vision for the future, experience, speaking ability and policy on the war in Iraq. And yet despite the contrast, Independants would have a difficult choice between the maverick McCain and the post-partisan Obama, and the Independants are where most elections are won and lost (2004 being an exception).

There's no way on earth I'd ever vote for Hillary, but Obama I'd consider strongly. I've been very impressed with him and his positions are pretty mainstream. Obama's challenge is getting past the Dem primary voters. He's already running a general election campaign, and he's a stronger general election candidate that he is a primary one.

[thejives]

Obama did great in the debate.

Clinton stumbled for 20 minutes about her Iraq vote.
It was really disturbing. She'd be crushed by McCain on the issue.

[Ritalin]

I thought they both did well, actually. I don't think either one swayed too many voters from the other side.

Perhaps the stark difference in their judgments on the war might move some people.

[high fly]

The conservative talk show hosts are stumping for Romney, that cannot be debated. But only some of them. There are others who seem to be pragmatic, McCain is better then Hillary (supreme court nominees, taxes, gun control) and that train of thought will seed its way to the base. If Hillary gets the nomination, that will unite the Republican Party to vote for McCain better then any other leader in the party can do.
I feel if Barack gets nominated, ernough independents will go with him because of his inspiring messages of unity and hope. I think that is what most Americans are looking for now, a charismatic leader and an end to the partisanship.


Interesting post, scott. Well said.
I pretty much agree with you, especially on the point of Hillary uniting the GOP. They have been running shit-scared of her since 2002 when they decided she sabotaged the 2004 nominee so she could be prevented from running against an incumbent.

The rightie talk hosts against McCain include Mark levin, Limpbaugh, Manatee, Beck and Ingraham.

I think the greasy-haired Romney would be easier to beat than McCain.



Wait till it comes out that Romney said he would be more pro-gay than Ted Kennedy several years ago.............

[Dude!]

I think the greasy-haired Romney

what does that have to do with anything

[high fly]

I think the greasy-haired Romney


what does that have to do with anything


It has to do with his phoniness.
Something along the lines of David Duke's plastic surgery to give himself high cheekbones or whatever it was.

Something I noticed a while back is a penchant for right-wingers in their late 50s or in their 60s to have greasy jet black hair.
It resembles those plastic helmet-like things that were sold to fans of Devo back in the day.......


Greasy kid stuff went out of style a looooooooooooooooong time ago.




Do you have greasy hair?

[PapaBear]

It has to do with his phoniness.
Something along the lines of David Duke's plastic surgery to give himself high cheekbones or whatever it was.

Something I noticed a while back is a penchant for right-wingers in their late 50s or in their 60s to have greasy jet black hair.
It resembles those plastic helmet-like things that were sold to fans of Devo back in the day.......


Greasy kid stuff went out of style a looooooooooooooooong time ago.




Do you have greasy hair?

http://images.buycostumes.com/mgen/merchandiser/2851.jpg

[keithy_19]

The debate seemed extremely warm to me. I don't know how much of it was fake. I'm assuming a great deal was. I don't think you could like the person you're running against, though they definately seem to be cutting back on the negative campaign strategy.

I'm hoping for McCai to be the next president. But, as time has gone on, I'm starting to like Obama more and more. And I don't really know why other then he seems to believe strongly in what he speaks of. He doesn't seem to waver much.

Perhaps he's the anti-christ.

Most likely not.

[sailor]

The debate seemed extremely warm to me. I don't know how much of it was fake. I'm assuming a great deal was. I don't think you could like the person you're running against, though they definately seem to be cutting back on the negative campaign strategy.

i only caught like 5 minutes of the debate, but obama made some negative comment about hillary's immigration plan (i think it was that part) and she threw on the biggest, fakest joker-grin i've ever seen on a person. i seriously don't get her appeal and hope obama beats her fake ass.

[A.J.]

Do you have greasy hair?

Well I AM half Italian.

[A.J.]

P.S. I welcome the marginalization of the extreme right-wing fringe that has taken over the Republican Party. Our country is better off for it.

It's a pleasure to agree with you high fly.

[DolaMight]

Coulter endorses Hillary Clinton for President.

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If listen very closely in between all that noise you can make out a presidential endorsement. I'd love to whip a beachball at her and break every bone in her body. Let Hannity speak.

[Bulldogcakes]

Obama/Clinton neck and neck in key races (http://www.reuters.com/article/bondsNews/idUSN0249533620080203)

WASHINGTON, Feb 3 (Reuters) - Democrats Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton are running neck-and-neck in California, New Jersey and Missouri two days before the sprawling "Super Tuesday" presidential showdown, according to a Reuters/C-SPAN/Zogby poll released on Sunday.

Obama has a slight lead in California and is virtually tied with Clinton in New Jersey and Missouri heading into the biggest day of voting ever in a U.S. presidential nominating campaign, with contests in 24 states.



I'm beginning to root for Obama. I can't vote for Hillary, so at least Obama/McCain will give me something to consider. Obama's very likeable and his positions aren't too far off from where I am, at least the ones I've heard so far.

Everyone knows Hillary, so I can see Obama having a late surge and taking some of these decisively as his supporters feel he can actually pull this off. Turnout is key, his supporters have less of a track record for showing up than Hillary's do, who skew older.

[Bulldogcakes]

Coulter endorses Hillary Clinton for President.

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/HuTqgqhxVMc&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/HuTqgqhxVMc&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

If listen very closely in between all that noise you can make out a presidential endorsement. I'd love to whip a beachball at her and break every bone in her body. Let Hannity speak.

If you've checked out the talk radio lately, its unbelieveable how much Conservatives hate McCain. They've been stumping for Romney, to little effect. Hillary might be the only person on the planet who could get them to vote for him, or to vote at all.

[K.C.]

Nader Alert! Nader Alert! (http://www.naderexplore08.org/)

[high fly]

Nader Alert! Nader Alert! (http://www.naderexplore08.org/)


< high fly snaps a pencil in two >

[high fly]

More McCain hate:

Vietnam Veterans Against John McCain
http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com/

If you want to find sleaze in politics, it's hard to find any worse than Ted Sampley.
He was a part of the campaign in 2000 to slime McCain in South Carolina where they said:

* McCain had a history of affairs with black hookers because "that's the way he likes them"

* McCain, as a result of those affairs, brought home VD which destroyed his wife's uterus

* They pointed to photos of the McCain family, noting the dark-skinned child, and said it was a result of one of McCain's liasons with black hookers, even though the child was adopted from one of Mother Theresa's orphanages in India

* McCain had sex with his jailers in North Vietnam

* McCain was "turned" by commie torturers and was a Soviet spy after he came home

There was more such ugliness and President George W. Bush had no problem sharing a stage with Sampley when Sampley repeated this crap. Bush not only welcomed Sampley's support, but when during a televised debate on TV down there, McCain asked Bush to put a stop to it, Bush just said, "That's politics" and refused to even disavow Sampley's comments.

[TheMojoPin]

Nader Alert! Nader Alert! (http://www.naderexplore08.org/)

Hmmmm, I've voted for him twice before...maybe I should just go for the hat trick.

[HBox]

Hmmmm, I've voted for him twice before...maybe I should just go for the hat trick.

If you do I will find you and cut you.

[sailor]

Hmmmm, I've voted for him twice before...maybe I should just go for the hat trick.

isn't he too old for ya?

[FUNKMAN]

More McCain hate:

Vietnam Veterans Against John McCain
http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com/

If you want to find sleaze in politics, it's hard to find any worse than Ted Sampley.
He was a part of the campaign in 2000 to slime McCain in South Carolina where they said:

* McCain had a history of affairs with black hookers because "that's the way he likes them"

* McCain, as a result of those affairs, brought home VD which destroyed his wife's uterus

* They pointed to photos of the McCain family, noting the dark-skinned child, and said it was a result of one of McCain's liasons with black hookers, even though the child was adopted from one of Mother Theresa's orphanages in India

* McCain had sex with his jailers in North Vietnam

* McCain was "turned" by commie torturers and was a Soviet spy after he came home

There was more such ugliness and President George W. Bush had no problem sharing a stage with Sampley when Sampley repeated this crap. Bush not only welcomed Sampley's support, but when during a televised debate on TV down there, McCain asked Bush to put a stop to it, Bush just said, "That's politics" and refused to even disavow Sampley's comments.

i heard McCain didn't even have to kneel down to give one of his captors a blowjob

[TheMojoPin]

isn't he too old for ya?

Ah-ha! All too true. Sorry, Ralphy. It's been fun.

[scottinnj]

Nader Alert! Nader Alert! (http://www.naderexplore08.org/)

< high fly snaps a pencil in two >

Hmmmm, I've voted for him twice before...maybe I should just go for the hat trick.

STAY ON TARGET, VOTE OBAMA! STAY ON TARGET, VOTE OBAMA!

http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/jekredsixporkins/img/movie_bg.jpg

STAY ON TARGET!!!!!!

[FUNKMAN]

Obama Gains on Clinton's Nationwide Lead, Polls Show

http://news.yahoo.com/s/bloomberg/20080203/pl_bloomberg/a4tnmx2atnhq

[scottinnj]

i heard McCain didn't even have to kneel down to give one of his captors a blowjob

Oooff.....can I challenge that joke please? A little too far for my taste.

[K.C.]

Hmmmm, I've voted for him twice before...maybe I should just go for the hat trick.

Hopefully Buchanan declares shortly...get the old gang back together again.

In all honesty, I fully expect a hard right third party candidate this year. Neither Hillary/Obama or McCain are angry enough about illegal immigration to pacify that crowd.

[scottinnj]

In all honesty, I fully expect a hard right third party candidate this year.


You may be right. In this article (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article3295472.ece), the Times of UK online takes a cheap shot (in my opinion) at McCain's wife. I submitted a comment to them, and of course it was ignored and not posted, and I sent the link to Michelle Malkin's blog site. Again ignored, but plenty of vitriole from her blogger freinds regarding their single-issue complaint, immigration, or "shamnesty" as they put it.

After gettting the shaft by a right-wing attack in the 2000 primaries, McCain seems to have handled it well. It's just stunning to me to see the stupidity of these people on this single issue, when allowing a Clinton or Obama presidency will move every other issue they care about to the left.

Supreme and Federal Court nominees.
Gun Control.
Taxes.
The war on terror.
Military Spending and troop levels.
And on and on.

But nooooo, we have to shut down McCain because of one issue...immigration!

Stupid Fucks. I'm separating myself from them permanently. Even if McCain wins the nomination, he'll lose the election. Not because of campaigning from Obama or Hillary. It'll be because he got "swift-boated" by his own party.



Where do conservatives like me go? I can't support the Republican Party if this is how they are going to act. I'm certainly not a Democrat-notwithstanding my Obama support.


I am a political soul with no home. I feel lost, and betrayed by my party. Being "Republican" was part of my self-identification. I was proud to be in the Party of Lincoln. Now that party is trying to destroy the reputation of a war hero, not just defeat his ideas. They are politically assasinating someone who should have a gold statue of himself cast and placed at the entrance to our party Headquarters.

I'm serious. Where do I go? Where do conservatives go who are truly concerned for country vs. party power?

[Zorro]

Looks like Romney may win California... Does this change anything ?

[A.J.]

Stupid Fucks. I'm separating myself from them permanently. Even if McCain wins the nomination, he'll lose the election. Not because of campaigning from Obama or Hillary. It'll be because he got "swift-boated" by his own party.



Where do conservatives like me go? I can't support the Republican Party if this is how they are going to act. I'm certainly not a Democrat-notwithstanding my Obama support.


I am a political soul with no home. I feel lost, and betrayed by my party. Being "Republican" was part of my self-identification. I was proud to be in the Party of Lincoln. Now that party is trying to destroy the reputation of a war hero, not just defeat his ideas. They are politically assasinating someone who should have a gold statue of himself cast and placed at the entrance to our party Headquarters.

I'm serious. Where do I go? Where do conservatives go who are truly concerned for country vs. party power?

I've been thinking of formally joining the Libertarians. The hijacking of the GOP by the Bible-thumpers sickens me.

[DolaMight]

With the GOP realizing this is their last week they can criticize McCain, they're throwin out all the stories they can remember if it helps anyone but McCain gets the nod.

Here's a story from the DCpost that Drudge gave top billing as BIG MAC ATTACK
http://www.drudgereport.com/jma.jpg
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/03/AR2008020303242_pf.html

It's a collection of stories trying to paint him as an enemy and a hothead. Tell me if this doesn't reinforce the reason he's a perfect candidate for anyone of sound objective mind. He gets into constant confrontations with his own party about pork barreling, corruption and campaign financing. This is his bad side.

[pennington]

Hopefully Buchanan declares shortly...get the old gang back together again.

If you're talking about Edgar Buchanan, he's got my vote:

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/0/0c/250px-Unclejoe.jpg

[K.C.]

Looks like Romney may win California... Does this change anything ?

Sort of....it's a winner take all state on the Republican side, so it would offset McCain's wins in New York, New Jersey, and so forth.

But Romney would need to pair it with some other wins to have a real shot.

[PhilDeez]

Looks like Romney may win California... Does this change anything ?

One poll is showing him leading, the other handful show McCain well ahead.
However, I think that California awards delegates on a winner take all per district - can anyone confirm this? If that is true wouldn't it turn out to be somewhat of a wash with both splitting most of the delegates?

[K.C.]

One poll is showing him leading, the other handful show McCain well ahead.
However, I think that California awards delegates on a winner take all per district - can anyone confirm this? If that is true wouldn't it turn out to be somewhat of a wash with both splitting most of the delegates?

Just looked into it...California is not a winner take all state (not sure about district)...it's proportional. So that plays to McCain's advantage even if he loses.

Romney would need to pick up a few surprise wins to still be a factor, in that case. If you look at the polls, Huckabee is killing his chances. But then again, Huckabee is actually polling better than Romney in most of Super Tuesday states, so it'd almost be fair to say Romney is killing Huckabee's chances.

[high fly]

Originally Posted by high fly
More McCain hate:

Vietnam Veterans Against John McCain
http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com/

If you want to find sleaze in politics, it's hard to find any worse than Ted Sampley.
He was a part of the campaign in 2000 to slime McCain in South Carolina where they said:

* McCain had a history of affairs with black hookers because "that's the way he likes them"

* McCain, as a result of those affairs, brought home VD which destroyed his wife's uterus

* They pointed to photos of the McCain family, noting the dark-skinned child, and said it was a result of one of McCain's liasons with black hookers, even though the child was adopted from one of Mother Theresa's orphanages in India

* McCain had sex with his jailers in North Vietnam

* McCain was "turned" by commie torturers and was a Soviet spy after he came home

There was more such ugliness and President George W. Bush had no problem sharing a stage with Sampley when Sampley repeated this crap. Bush not only welcomed Sampley's support, but when during a televised debate on TV down there, McCain asked Bush to put a stop to it, Bush just said, "That's politics" and refused to even disavow Sampley's comments.


i heard McCain didn't even have to kneel down to give one of his captors a blowjob


I don't believe any of it, but McCain certainly has been sucking up to Bush ever since Bush slimed him in 2000!
We've had little or no "straight talk" out of him for the last 8 years, and now he's pretending to be a "maverick" who speaks his mind no matter what the consequences and let the chips fall where they may.

McCain's descent into becoming an obsequious bootlicker has been one of the saddest things I have seen in politics.
There once was a time when I admired him much, but no more....

[epo]

Just looked into it...California is not a winner take all state (not sure about district)...it's proportional. So that plays to McCain's advantage even if he loses.

Romney would need to pick up a few surprise wins to still be a factor, in that case. If you look at the polls, Huckabee is killing his chances. But then again, Huckabee is actually polling better than Romney in most of Super Tuesday states, so it'd almost be fair to say Romney is killing Huckabee's chances.

California is both proportional & district awarded. I want to say that 30% of the vote is proportionally divided by the vote & the balance is based upon the district.

Those wacky sombitches!

[ShowerBench]

http://media.gallup.com/poll/graphs/020408DailyUpdateGraph2.gif

[K.C.]

California is both proportional & district awarded. I want to say that 30% of the vote is proportionally divided by the vote & the balance is based upon the district.

Those wacky sombitches!

Hannity just had Zogby and Rasmussen on his show...they both basically laid out that unless Huckabee drops out immediately and almost every single one of his voters jumps to Romney, this thing is completely in the bag McCain and should be over by tomorrow night.

It goes without saying that Sean didn't take it very well.

[Zorro]

I guess what we learn from a failing Romney is you can buy a big city Mayor's office or a even Governorship, but the Presidency is still too expensive

[HBox]

Hannity just had Zogby and Rasmussen on his show...they both basically laid out that unless Huckabee drops out immediately and almost every single one of his voters jumps to Romney, this thing is completely in the bag McCain and should be over by tomorrow night.

It goes without saying that Sean didn't take it very well.

The irony there is so rich, like a thick maple syrup.

[Zorro]

The irony there is so rich, like a thick maple syrup.

Now I'm starvin'

[Zorro]

Barbara Boxer not making an endorsement. She's also a SuperDelegate and says she'll vote the "will of the people". I'm guessing this means internal polling says there is no clear winner and sitting on the fence is the way to go.

[thejives]

Oh I hope she loses.
this was in my mailbox today:
http://x2e.xanga.com/935c471472435171962279/m130596506.jpg

You know what I hated most about it?
http://xb3.xanga.com/602c5ae673c32171962454/m130596595.jpg

You hear that MA.
Only Hillary Clinton can lead people.

So very very entitled.

[high fly]

Only Hillary Clinton can lead people.

So very very entitled.

Some of the small print was difficult to make out, but could you quote for us the part that says only Hillary can lead people?

And aren't ALL of the candidates claiming they can lead the nation?

[high fly]

“Rhymes With” Mitt Romney on the McCain/Kennedy immigration bill, before Romney was running for president:
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2007/03/16/romneys_words_grow_hard_on_immigration/


“In a November 2005 interview with the Globe, Romney described immigration proposals by McCain and others as "quite different" from amnesty, because they required illegal immigrants to register with the government, work for years, pay taxes, not take public benefits, and pay a fine before applying for citizenship.
"That's very different than amnesty, where you literally say, 'OK, everybody here gets to stay,' " Romney said in the interview. "It's saying you could work your way into becoming a legal resident of the country by working here without taking benefits and then applying and then paying a fine."
Romney did not specifically endorse McCain's bill, saying he had not yet formulated a full position on immigration. But he did speak approvingly of efforts by McCain and Bush to solve the nation's immigration crisis, calling them "reasonable proposals."Romney also said in the interview that it was not "practical or economic for the country" to deport the estimated 12 million immigrants living in the US illegally. "These people contribute in many cases to our economy and to our society," he said. "In some cases, they do not. But that's a whole group we're going to have to determine how to deal with."

[FUNKMAN]

I don't believe any of it, but McCain certainly has been sucking up to Bush ever since Bush slimed him in 2000!
We've had little or no "straight talk" out of him for the last 8 years, and now he's pretending to be a "maverick" who speaks his mind no matter what the consequences and let the chips fall where they may.

McCain's descent into becoming an obsequious bootlicker has been one of the saddest things I have seen in politics.
There once was a time when I admired him much, but no more....

i agree. i saw live on tv Bush leading him a round like a puppydog, telling him where to stand during some press conference and this was right after McCain had made some disparaging remarks toward the President. it was clear as day George W was showing people that McCain was his little bitch.

i don't get the war hero thing. the guy got captured, and he was held all them years. i could see if he escaped. not to lessen his courage being a soldier but a "hero"? come on!

i honestly cannot believe he's making it this far but I feel in the end when he is standing next to and just up to Obama's hip, the country will see the "same old same old" in McCain and the possibility for something new and better in Obama...

i cannot believe people are behind a 100 more years in Iraq, Corporate tax breaks, and keeping the tax break for the wealthiest. i believe they are walking through life with blinders on

[high fly]

You just reminded me of something when you mentioned McCain being shot down.

As I recall, Napoleon was asked what qualities he wanted in his officers the government would send him and he said he wanted men who were lucky.
McCain, especially when it comes to aircraft, is exceedingly unlucky.

* He crashed one in flight training before he even got his wings,

* then he crashed another one before shipping out to Vietnam,

* then he got shot down,

* and several years ago he tried flying one-a them ultralight doohickeys and crashed that!


At this time in history, can we afford to have Joe Bltskplk as president?

[NewYorkDragons80]

i don't get the war hero thing. the guy got captured, and he was held all them years. i could see if he escaped. not to lessen his courage being a soldier but a "hero"? come on!
He flew 23 sorties over North Vietnam before being shot down, stood up to his interrogators as best he could when he was prisoner for 5 fucking years, and then came back and served another 7 years in the Navy, leading its largest squadron to unprecedented accolades. And oh, by the way, pushing through his injuries to requalify for flight status. But you're right, being a POW isn't heroic. While you're at it, take away Stockdale's Medal of Honor, shitdick.

* He crashed one in flight training before he even got his wings,

* then he crashed another one before shipping out to Vietnam,

* then he got shot down,

* and several years ago he tried flying one-a them ultralight doohickeys and crashed that!
Jerkoff, it was the 50's, Dawn of the jet age. Accidents were relatively common compared to today, especially in training.

[Bulldogcakes]

It's a collection of stories trying to paint him as an enemy and a hothead. Tell me if this doesn't reinforce the reason he's a perfect candidate for anyone of sound objective mind. He gets into constant confrontations with his own party about pork barreling, corruption and campaign financing. This is his bad side.

The GOP is praying Hillary gets the nod now. They've poisoned the well so badly with McCain that Hillary may be the only person on the planet their base will show up to vote against. Since they won't be voting for McCain. That's a recipe for losing an election, but so be it. After 8 years of Bush, the party is out of ideological gas anyway.

I know this is a hit piece, but I have to admit it resonates with me as a negative. Its something I've read and heard stories about for the last 10 years. He has been known to blow his stack at people on both sides of the aisle. Whether he's right or wrong, its just not the way I want a president handling things. Character is one of the key things I vote on. You can't anticipate what issues will dominate a presidency, very often you vote on someone who looks good on foreign policy and domestic issues ende up dominating his term (or vice versa). So I want someone who's judgement I feel comfortable with for whatever comes their way. This tells me a lot of things about him, none of which I particularily like.

All of that being said, Bill Clinton was also known to be a hothead and his presidency (after an awful first 2 years) was 8 years of relative peace and prosperity. So its not decisive to me, but its still a negative.

[high fly]

He flew 23 sorties over North Vietnam before being shot down, stood up to his interrogators as best he could when he was prisoner for 5 fucking years, and then came back and served another 7 years in the Navy, leading its largest squadron to unprecedented accolades. And oh, by the way, pushing through his injuries to requalify for flight status. But you're right, being a POW isn't heroic. While you're at it, take away Stockdale's Medal of Honor, shitdick.


Jerkoff, it was the 50's, Dawn of the jet age. Accidents were relatively common compared to today, especially in training.

I'm quite sure McCain was in Vietnam during the 60s and early 70s.

Gotta link saying he was there in the 50s?
(I'll give you that he crashed at least one plane in 1958, but I grew up with Naval jet aviators of McCain's generation and they didn't have multiple crashes they way Honest John did)


Y'might wanna check your facts before you start calling names, especially with me.
You keep that up, bud, and I'll make a face at you.
Now wouldn't that be a fine kettle of fish?


Hmmm?

[FUNKMAN]

He flew 23 sorties over North Vietnam before being shot down, stood up to his interrogators as best he could when he was prisoner for 5 fucking years, and then came back and served another 7 years in the Navy, leading its largest squadron to unprecedented accolades. And oh, by the way, pushing through his injuries to requalify for flight status. But you're right, being a POW isn't heroic. While you're at it, take away Stockdale's Medal of Honor, shitdick.


Jerkoff, it was the 50's, Dawn of the jet age. Accidents were relatively common compared to today, especially in training.

well at least you didn't say you liked him for president... thanks for the education and I'm not sure why you would take it to a personal level but for the 'shitdick' comment you can go fuck off

[Zorro]

i don't get the war hero thing. the guy got captured, and he was held all them years. i could see if he escaped. not to lessen his courage being a soldier but a "hero"? come on!



I am not a McCain supporter, but to disparage his heroism is just stupid.

Before you stick your foot in your mouth again take five minutes. Google Mccain and check out what happened to him, the conditions he lived under and his unwiilingness to be used as a pawn. Then think...would you have held up?

[FUNKMAN]

I am not a McCain supporter, but to disparage his heroism is just stupid.

Before you stick your foot in your mouth again take five minutes. Google Mccain and check out what happened to him, the conditions he lived under and his unwiilingness to be used as a pawn. Then think...would you have held up?

you're right, point taken...

[high fly]

You just reminded me of something when you mentioned McCain being shot down.

As I recall, Napoleon was asked what qualities he wanted in his officers the government would send him and he said he wanted men who were lucky.
McCain, especially when it comes to aircraft, is exceedingly unlucky.

* He crashed one in flight training before he even got his wings,

* then he crashed another one before shipping out to Vietnam,

* then he got shot down,

* and several years ago he tried flying one-a them ultralight doohickeys and crashed that!


At this time in history, can we afford to have Joe Bltskplk as president?


WHOOPS!

Looks like I was a little generous to Honest John.
It says here http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com/cin_mccain_lost_five_u.htm
that he lost 5 planes while in the service....

[Zorro]

you're right, point taken...

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n67/Chas4604/handshake.gif

[badmonkey]

John McCain is a war hero.

It cannot be put in simpler terms. It does not matter which side of the political aisle you prefer to have power. The only thing that factors into it is that he was a member of the military who risked his life for his country in combat during wartime. Every member of our military who risks their lives for this country in combat during wartime is a war hero.

John McCain is a war hero.

[epo]

WHOOPS!

Looks like I was a little generous to Honest John.
It says here http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com/cin_mccain_lost_five_u.htm
that he lost 5 planes while in the service....

Seriously?

Come on man, you are better than that. That group (Vietnam Veterans Against John McCain) is nothing more than a scumbag swift boat group. They were scumfucks when they wrongly attacked John Kerry & they are scumfucks that are attacking John McCain.

I may disagree with McCain's policy votes, but I have never disagreed with his patriotism.

[FUNKMAN]

you're right, point taken...

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n67/Chas4604/handshake.gif

He flew 23 sorties over North Vietnam before being shot down, stood up to his interrogators as best he could when he was prisoner for 5 fucking years, and then came back and served another 7 years in the Navy, leading its largest squadron to unprecedented accolades. And oh, by the way, pushing through his injuries to requalify for flight status. But you're right, being a POW isn't heroic. While you're at it, take away Stockdale's Medal of Honor, shitdick.


Jerkoff, it was the 50's, Dawn of the jet age. Accidents were relatively common compared to today, especially in training.

well at least you didn't say you liked him for president... thanks for the education and I'm not sure why you would take it to a personal level but for the 'shitdick' comment you can go fuck off

well not only should I feel like and Do feel like a BIG AHOLE I feel bad for saying Fuck Off!

sorry!

[sailor]

I am not a McCain supporter, but to disparage his heroism is just stupid.

Before you stick your foot in your mouth again take five minutes. Google Mccain and check out what happened to him, the conditions he lived under and his unwiilingness to be used as a pawn. Then think...would you have held up?

for those who don't know, while mccain was a p.o.w., his father was named cinc-pac. partly due to this, mccain was offered his own release repeatedly (for propaganda/p.r. purposes) but he wouldn't take it while others had been held longer than him (as per military rules). they tortured him worse than others to try to get him to accept early release, to further embarrass the u.s. military.

[badmonkey]

http://thestockmasters.com/images/pulp_fiction_koons.jpg

[NewYorkDragons80]

I'm quite sure McCain was in Vietnam during the 60s and early 70s.

Gotta link saying he was there in the 50s?
(I'll give you that he crashed at least one plane in 1958, but I grew up with Naval jet aviators of McCain's generation and they didn't have multiple crashes they way Honest John did)
Hmmm?
Well, he graduated Annapolis in 58 and obviously his first crash was in the 50s during his training. Of course not all his crashes were in the 50's since the most infamous was in the late 60s, and I wasn't saying that. All I was saying was that McCain was a good officer and leader and there's a logical explanation for at least 2 of his crashes without even researching the other 2.

[scottinnj]

You just reminded me of something when you mentioned McCain being shot down.

As I recall, Napoleon was asked what qualities he wanted in his officers the government would send him and he said he wanted men who were lucky.
McCain, especially when it comes to aircraft, is exceedingly unlucky.

* He crashed one in flight training before he even got his wings,

* then he crashed another one before shipping out to Vietnam,

* then he got shot down,

* and several years ago he tried flying one-a them ultralight doohickeys and crashed that!


At this time in history, can we afford to have Joe Bltskplk as president?

WHOOPS!

Looks like I was a little generous to Honest John.
It says here http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com/cin_mccain_lost_five_u.htm
that he lost 5 planes while in the service....

Seriously?

Come on man, you are better than that. That group (Vietnam Veterans Against John McCain) is nothing more than a scumbag swift boat group. They were scumfucks when they wrongly attacked John Kerry & they are scumfucks that are attacking John McCain.

I may disagree with McCain's policy votes, but I have never disagreed with his patriotism.

Thank you epo, and I say the same thing about John Kerry, always have, always will.

McCain's Service Awards (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McCain#Military):

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o217/themarshal/image001-1.png


The Prisoner of War Medal was paid for by blood, broken bones, disease and the ever-present threat of execution. And Distinguished Flying Crosses aren't just handed out willy-nilly in the Navy.

[NewYorkDragons80]

WHOOPS!

Looks like I was a little generous to Honest John.
It says here http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com/cin_mccain_lost_five_u.htm
that he lost 5 planes while in the service....
Whoops is right. One of the "crashes" they cite is when McCain was on the Forrestal. Remember, when another Navy plane's missile accidentally fired into his plane while on the deck? In other words, it would be just as reasonable to say a victim in the WTC or Pentagon was responsible for a plane crashing into their building on 9/11.

To FUNKMAN, am I supposed to be sorry that you had to endure being called shitdick after saying John McCain wasn't a hero? If you're saying none of the POWs were heroes, then I can at least respect that as a position, but if you're gonna shit on his war record out of disagreement with his policies, then you deserve the honorary title of Doctor of Shitdickitude

I've been a McCain supporter since day one (a la Eddie Trunk). What are you, new?

[NewYorkDragons80]

By the way, there were 2 swiftboat ads. One said Kerry's wounds were self-inflicted (obviously bullshit). The other said Kerry's words were used to demoralize captive air pirates. That was as true as it gets.

[scottinnj]

John Kerry's Service Awards (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Kerry#Military_honors)


Military honors
During the night of December 2, 1968 and early morning of December 3, 1968, Kerry was in charge of a small boat operating near a peninsula north of Cam Ranh Bay together with a Swift boat (PCF-60). According to Kerry and the two crewmen who accompanied him that night, Patrick Runyon and William Zaladonis, they surprised a group of men unloading sampans at a river crossing, who began running and failed to obey an order to stop. As the men fled, Kerry and his crew opened fire on the sampans and destroyed them, then rapidly left. During this encounter, Kerry received a minor wound in the left arm above the elbow. It was for this injury that Kerry received his first Purple Heart.[20]

Kerry received his second Purple Heart for a wound received in action on the Bo De River on February 20, 1969. The plan had been for the Swift boats to be accompanied by support helicopters. On the way up the Bo De, however, the helicopters were attacked. They returned to their base to refuel and were unable to return to the mission for several hours.

As the Swift boats reached the Cua Lon River, Kerry's boat was hit by a RPG round, and a piece of shrapnel hit Kerry's left leg, wounding him. Thereafter, they had no more trouble, and reached the Gulf of Thailand safely. Kerry still has shrapnel in his left thigh because the doctors tending to him decided to remove the damaged tissue and close the wound with sutures rather than make a wide opening to remove the shrapnel.[21] Kerry received his second Purple Heart for this injury, but like several others wounded earlier that day, he did not lose any time off from duty.[22][23]

Eight days later, on February 28, 1969, came the events for which Kerry was awarded his Silver Star. On this occasion, Kerry was in tactical command of his Swift boat and two others. Their mission included bringing a demolition team and dozens of South Vietnamese soldiers to destroy enemy sampans, structures and bunkers. Running into an ambush, Kerry "directed the boats to turn to the beach and charge the Viet Cong positions" and he "expertly directed" his boat's fire and coordinated the deployment of the South Vietnamese troops, according to the original medal citation (signed by Admiral Zumwalt). Going a short distance farther, Kerry's boat was the target of an RPG round; as the boat beached at the site, a VC with a rocket launcher jumped and ran from a spider hole. While the boat's gunner opened fire, wounding the VC on the leg, and while the other boats approached and offered cover fire, Kerry jumped from the boat and chased the VC and killed him, capturing a loaded rocket launcher.[24][25][26]

Kerry's commanding officer, Lieutenant Commander George Elliott, joked to Douglas Brinkley in 2003 that he didn't know whether to court-martial Kerry for beaching the boat without orders or give him a medal for saving the crew. Elliott recommended Kerry for the Silver Star, and Zumwalt flew into An Thoi to personally award medals to Kerry and the rest of the sailors involved in the mission. The Navy's account of Kerry's actions is presented in the original medal citation signed by Zumwalt. The engagement was documented in an after-action report, a press release written on March 1, 1969, and a historical summary dated March 17, 1969.[27]

On March 13, 1969, five Swift boats were returning to base together on the Bay Hap river from their missions that day, after a firefight earlier in the day (during which time Kerry received a slight shrapnel wound in the buttocks from blowing up a rice bunker), and debarking some but not all of the passengers at a small village. They approached a fishing weir (a series of poles across the river for hanging nets), so that one group of boats went around left, hugging the shore, and a group with Kerry's 94 boat went around right along the shoreline. A mine was detonated directly beneath the lead boat, PCF-3, as it crossed the weir to the left, lifting PCF-3 completely into the air.[28]

James Rassmann, a Green Beret advisor who was aboard PCF-94, was knocked overboard when, according to witnesses and the documentation of the event, a mine or rocket exploded close to the boat. According to the documentation for the event, Kerry's arm was injured when he was thrown against a bulkhead during the explosion. PCF 94 returned to the scene and Kerry rescued Rassmann from the water. Kerry received the Bronze Star for his actions during this incident; he also received his third Purple Heart.[29]

After the crew of PCF-3 had been rescued, and the most seriously wounded sailors evacuated by two of the PCFs, PCF 94 and another boat remained behind and helped salvage the stricken boat together with a damage-control party that had been immediately dispatched to the scene.


These things are a matter of historical fact. Click Here (http://web.archive.org/web/20041107000256/www.johnkerry.com/pdf/jkmilservice/DD214.pdf) to see a PDF of John Kerry's DD214.

3 Purple Hearts for wounds received in action
Bronze Star with "V" attachment
Silver Star with "V" attachment

John Kerry and John McCain are American Heroes. I never had problems with John Kerry's service to our country, I disagreed with his voting record in the Senate regarding military funding and troop levels and such.

[epo]

By the way, there were 2 swiftboat ads. One said Kerry's wounds were self-inflicted (obviously bullshit). The other said Kerry's words were used to demoralize captive air pirates. That was as true as it gets.

Try 4 TV ads, a book and countless appearances on News/Pundit shows.

Those guys were complete scumfuck liars.

[badmonkey]

Distinguished Flying Crosses aren't just handed out willy-nilly in the Air Force.

The Navy on the other hand...

[scottinnj]

The Navy on the other hand...

Thanks dude, I already caught it and did an edit. Planes = Air Force by nature to me because my Father-in-Law was Air Force and I live an hour south of MacGuire AFB.

Plus the A-10s the Air Force flew in Desert Storm saved my ass once while we were being threatened by Republican Guard tanks. And seeing a B-52 in the sky above you made you feel as safe as being in your mamma's arms.

[NewYorkDragons80]

Try 4 TV ads, a book and countless appearances on News/Pundit shows.

Those guys were complete scumfuck liars.
Some of them were legit heroes themselves who for one reason or another got mixed up in these ads. I'm not denying Kerry's status as a hero. However, his protests afterwards are 100% fair game for attacks. My mistake, 3 ads were shit and 1 was legit.

[scottinnj]

Hannity just had Zogby and Rasmussen on his show...they both basically laid out that unless Huckabee drops out immediately and almost every single one of his voters jumps to Romney, this thing is completely in the bag McCain and should be over by tomorrow night.

It goes without saying that Sean didn't take it very well.

The irony there is so rich, like a thick maple syrup.

Now I'm starvin'


Sean Hannity:
..if you don't like it, turn the dial!

I wonder if he turned the dial on his own show.

[epo]

Here are the links:

Swift Boat Ad 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bS627KVMCU&feature=related)

Swift Boat Ad 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngjUkPbGwAg&feature=related)

Swift Boat Ad 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLwSaWB_G90&feature=related)

Swift Boat Ad 4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbTyEPZBUQY&feature=related)

If you can tell me which one these stands up and makes any kind of sense in an intelligent society I would appreciate your help. Those fuckers were drooling idiots and a shame upon our national freedom of speech.

[Zorro]

John Kerry's Service Awards (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Kerry#Military_honors)





These things are a matter of historical fact. Click Here (http://web.archive.org/web/20041107000256/www.johnkerry.com/pdf/jkmilservice/DD214.pdf) to see a PDF of John Kerry's DD214.

3 Purple Hearts for wounds received in action
Bronze Star with "V" attachment
Silver Star with "V" attachment

John Kerry and John McCain are American Heroes. I never had problems with John Kerry's service to our country, I disagreed with his voting record in the Senate regarding military funding and troop levels and such.

I had no problem with either John Kerry's military service or his renunciation of it. What pissed me off was that his trying to play both sides. Your the guy that threw away your medals, denounced the military and then at the Democratic National Convention come on stage in a flower draped swift boat mock up shouting "John Kerry ready for duty"...it was bullshit and people saw right through it.

We're Americans and we're pretty dumb but we dig honesty. If Kerry had owned up to the fact that he fought as much against the war as he did in it he would have been fine, but his finnessing just gave the republicans an opportunity to paint him as a flip-flopper. He opened the door they just walked in.

don't get started about the junkie loud mouthed fat radio host and his insults of McCain

[Zorro]

Even I got a medal and there was no bigger fuck up in the Air Force...

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n67/Chas4604/usafcom.jpg

[NewYorkDragons80]

Sean Hannity: I wonder if he turned the dial on his own show.
The whole Coulter/Limbaugh backlash only reinforces why McCain is a great choice to lead this country. These demagogue cunts saw how poorly they function on offense over the past 8 years, so they need to hedge their bets with a Republican they can hate on. A unifying president is about as counter to their interests as anything could be. They need to portray themselves as victims and reinforce divisive feuds in order to continue their survival.

[K.C.]

The whole Coulter/Limbaugh backlash

They've jumped the shark so badly that they've managed to somehow rouse Bob Dole's cryogenically frozen corpse back to life to call them out and defend McCain.

http://youdecide08.foxnews.com/2008/02/04/bob-dole-defends-john-mccain-in-letter-to-rush-limbaugh/



Although McCain better save some the Bob Dole juice...he'll need him for the 'People Older Than Me' tour this summer to prove he's really not that old.

[scottinnj]

I had no problem with either John Kerry's military service or his renunciation of it. What pissed me off was that his trying to play both sides.

But that is exactly what the swift boat ads damaged-our ability to separate his service from his record in the Senate. What pissed me off was constantly predicating my debate about his voting record with my explanation of how I despised the swift boat ads. It just took the whole debate out of the realm of ideas and into the area of personal attacks. So many people who probably would have listened to me and debated me automatically tuned out because of the swift boat ads. It was excruciating.

[Zorro]

But that is exactly what the swift boat ads damaged-our ability to separate his service from his record in the Senate. What pissed me off was constantly predicating my debate about his voting record with my explanation of how I despised the swift boat ads. It just took the whole debate out of the realm of ideas and into the area of personal attacks. So many people who probably would have listened to me and debated me automatically tuned out because of the swift boat ads. It was excruciating.

My point was the Kerry's post Vietnam actions created the swift boat venom. You have to remember Kerry came back to the states in the 70's saying all sorts of things about the troops....then he tried to run as a military man... so true or not the ads were revenge and it was served cold...

[epo]

My point was the Kerry's post Vietnam actions created the swift boat venom. You have to remember Kerry came back to the states in the 70's saying all sorts of things about the troops....then he tried to run as a military man... so true or not the ads were revenge and it was served cold...

Bob Perry & his Texas buddies created the Swiftboaters. This was old-fashioned dirty politics on a grand scale. And for the record, the shit John Kerry said about Vietnam was criticism of the leadership, not of the men.

Can we get back to 2008 please?

[scottinnj]

... so true or not the ads were revenge and it was served cold...

Can we get back to 2008 please?


Zorro, I don't mean to cut you short, but the whole swiftboat thing to me was so distasteful, I really don't want to rehash the issue. Kerry isn't even a candidate anymore, so I gotta go with epo on this.

Let's debate the issues of the current candidates, please. :thumbup:

[ShowerBench]

I know this is a hit piece, but I have to admit it resonates with me as a negative. Its something I've read and heard stories about for the last 10 years. He has been known to blow his stack at people on both sides of the aisle. Whether he's right or wrong, its just not the way I want a president handling things. Character is one of the key things I vote on. You can't anticipate what issues will dominate a presidency, very often you vote on someone who looks good on foreign policy and domestic issues ende up dominating his term (or vice versa). So I want someone who's judgement I feel comfortable with for whatever comes their way. This tells me a lot of things about him, none of which I particularily like.

All of that being said, Bill Clinton was also known to be a hothead and his presidency (after an awful first 2 years) was 8 years of relative peace and prosperity. So its not decisive to me, but its still a negative.

Agree McCain and Clinton to a lesser extent were hotheads but McCain is a loose cannon, where Clinton was/is a disciplined governing machine, private sex life notwithstanding.

[ShowerBench]

We're Americans and we're pretty dumb but we dig honesty. If Kerry had owned up to the fact that he fought as much against the war as he did in it he would have been fine, but his finnessing just gave the republicans an opportunity to paint him as a flip-flopper. He opened the door they just walked in.

don't get started about the junkie loud mouthed fat radio host and his insults of McCain

I disagree. Kerry earned the right to support the war by fighting for it. He also earned the right to ask how one asks a soldier to be the "last to die" in it.

It's not confusing and the "flip flop" charge doesn't make sense unless you believe someone can't fight in the war and then also come back to speak out against it.

[Fezticle98]

They've jumped the shark so badly that they've managed to somehow rouse Bob Dole's cryogenically frozen corpse back to life to call them out and defend McCain.

http://youdecide08.foxnews.com/2008/02/04/bob-dole-defends-john-mccain-in-letter-to-rush-limbaugh/

Although McCain better save some the Bob Dole juice...he'll need him for the 'People Older Than Me' tour this summer to prove he's really not that old.

He just needs to avoid taking a stage dive like Mr. Dole did.

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[led37zep]

Zorro, I don't mean to cut you short, but the whole swiftboat thing to me was so distasteful, I really don't want to rehash the issue. Kerry isn't even a candidate anymore, so I gotta go with epo on this.

Let's debate the issues of the current candidates, please. :thumbup:
What? Oh come on! Lets fight the presidential elections of the past!

Anybody want to debate the James Garfield vs Winfield Hancock election of 1880? :thumbdown:

[Yerdaddy]

You may be right. In this article (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article3295472.ece), the Times of UK online takes a cheap shot (in my opinion) at McCain's wife. I submitted a comment to them, and of course it was ignored and not posted, and I sent the link to Michelle Malkin's blog site. Again ignored, but plenty of vitriole from her blogger freinds regarding their single-issue complaint, immigration, or "shamnesty" as they put it.

After gettting the shaft by a right-wing attack in the 2000 primaries, McCain seems to have handled it well. It's just stunning to me to see the stupidity of these people on this single issue, when allowing a Clinton or Obama presidency will move every other issue they care about to the left.

Supreme and Federal Court nominees.
Gun Control.
Taxes.
The war on terror.
Military Spending and troop levels.
And on and on.

But nooooo, we have to shut down McCain because of one issue...immigration!

Stupid Fucks. I'm separating myself from them permanently. Even if McCain wins the nomination, he'll lose the election. Not because of campaigning from Obama or Hillary. It'll be because he got "swift-boated" by his own party.



Where do conservatives like me go? I can't support the Republican Party if this is how they are going to act. I'm certainly not a Democrat-notwithstanding my Obama support.


I am a political soul with no home. I feel lost, and betrayed by my party. Being "Republican" was part of my self-identification. I was proud to be in the Party of Lincoln. Now that party is trying to destroy the reputation of a war hero, not just defeat his ideas. They are politically assasinating someone who should have a gold statue of himself cast and placed at the entrance to our party Headquarters.

I'm serious. Where do I go? Where do conservatives go who are truly concerned for country vs. party power?

You're not alone. (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/03/opinion/03kristof.html?hp=&pagewanted=print)

Today, conservative Christian churches do superb work on poverty, AIDS, sex trafficking, climate change, prison abuses, malaria and genocide in Darfur.

Bleeding-heart liberals could accomplish far more if they reached out to build common cause with bleeding-heart conservatives. And the Democratic presidential candidate (particularly if it’s Mr. Obama, to whom evangelicals have been startlingly receptive) has a real chance this year of winning large numbers of evangelical voters.

“Evangelicals are going to vote this year in part on climate change, on Darfur, on poverty,” said Jim Wallis, the author of a new book, “The Great Awakening,” which argues that the age of the religious right has passed and that issues of social justice are rising to the top of the agenda. Mr. Wallis says that about half of white evangelical votes will be in play this year.

A recent CBS News poll found that the single issue that white evangelicals most believed they should be involved in was fighting poverty. The traditional issue of abortion was a distant second, and genocide was third.

Today, many evangelicals are powerful internationalists and humanitarians — and liberals haven’t awakened to the transformation. The new face of evangelicals is somebody like the Rev. Rick Warren, the California pastor who wrote “The Purpose Driven Life.”

Mr. Warren acknowledges that for most of his life he wasn’t much concerned with issues of poverty or disease. But on a visit to South Africa in 2003, he came across a tiny church operating from a dilapidated tent — yet sheltering 25 children orphaned by AIDS.

“I realized they were doing more for the poor than my entire megachurch,” Mr. Warren said, with cheerful exaggeration. “It was like a knife in the heart.” So Mr. Warren mobilized his vast Saddleback Church to fight AIDS, malaria and poverty in 68 countries. Since then, more than 7,500 members of his church have paid their own way to volunteer in poor countries — and once they see the poverty, they immediately want to do more.
“Almost all of my work is in the third world,” Mr. Warren said. “I couldn’t care less about politics, the culture wars. My only interest is to get people to care about Darfurs and Rwandas.”

Helene Gayle, the head of CARE, said evangelicals “have made some incredible contributions” in the struggle against global poverty. “We don’t give them credit for the changes they’ve made,” she added. Fred Krupp, the president of Environmental Defense, said, “Many evangelical leaders have been key to taking the climate issue across the cultural divide.”

It’s certainly fair to criticize Catholic leaders and other conservative Christians for their hostility toward condoms, a policy that has gravely undermined the fight against AIDS in Africa. But while robust criticism is fair, scorn is not.

In parts of Africa where bandits and warlords shoot or rape anything that moves, you often find that the only groups still operating are Doctors Without Borders and religious aid workers: crazy doctors and crazy Christians. In the town of Rutshuru in war-ravaged Congo, I found starving children, raped widows and shellshocked survivors. And there was a determined Catholic nun from Poland, serenely running a church clinic.

Unlike the religious right windbags, she was passionately “pro-life” even for those already born — and brave souls like her are increasingly representative of religious conservatives. We can disagree sharply with their politics, but to mock them underscores our own ignorance and prejudice.

One of the points of this column by Kristof, (whom I highly reccommend for those who can't resist reading opinion pieces but still want to avoid the nutjobs), is that to lump all evangelicals together as poor-hating, gay-bashing, bigoted extremists is just as dogmatic and false as the Pat Robertson types you're claiming to condemn. Scott's presense on the board should have taught us all that a long time ago, however.

[Yerdaddy]

i agree. i saw live on tv Bush leading him a round like a puppydog, telling him where to stand during some press conference and this was right after McCain had made some disparaging remarks toward the President. it was clear as day George W was showing people that McCain was his little bitch.

i don't get the war hero thing. the guy got captured, and he was held all them years. i could see if he escaped. not to lessen his courage being a soldier but a "hero"? come on!

i honestly cannot believe he's making it this far but I feel in the end when he is standing next to and just up to Obama's hip, the country will see the "same old same old" in McCain and the possibility for something new and better in Obama...

i cannot believe people are behind a 100 more years in Iraq, Corporate tax breaks, and keeping the tax break for the wealthiest. i believe they are walking through life with blinders on

He's also been more critical of Bush on actual policy issues than any other Republican in Congress. If he has to play the good soldier the rest of the time to keep the Republican crazies from turning on him then so be it. Torture, the handling of Iraq, campaign finance, and illegal wiretapping - these things matter. Gladhanding of nutjobs in your party - not so much.

McCain is the most important "maverick" politician in national politics, and that's saying something given the price he's paying for it politically today. He's the one guy I can say truly puts the interest of the country before his party or his career.

As for his hero status: Once a person puts their ass on the line and is captured by the enemy - instant hero status!

Beyond that McCain made concious decisions that cost him years of unimaginable suffering for the sake of his fellow soldiers and this country. He paid a price higher than any of us will ever pay for anything, and he paid it willingly and knowingly. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McCain#Prisoner_of_war) There is no excuse for that man's sacrifice ever to be called into question!

[Yerdaddy]

The whole Coulter/Limbaugh backlash only reinforces why McCain is a great choice to lead this country. These demagogue cunts saw how poorly they function on offense over the past 8 years, so they need to hedge their bets with a Republican they can hate on. A unifying president is about as counter to their interests as anything could be. They need to portray themselves as victims and reinforce divisive feuds in order to continue their survival.

QFT. Hatred is the bread and butter of these people. Clinton was the best thing that ever happened to these people and Bush was the worst. At this point it looks like this election is going bring us a level of venomous demagoguery like we haven't seen in this country since Reconstruction. The only question is whether Americans have the sense to tune them out.

[Bulldogcakes]

QFT. Hatred is the bread and butter of these people. Clinton was the best thing that ever happened to these people and Bush was the worst. At this point it looks like this election is going bring us a level of venomous demagoguery like we haven't seen in this country since Reconstruction. The only question is whether Americans have the sense to tune them out.

Reconstruction is a bit much, and I doubt rhetoric will get so heated Congressmen will be shooting each other on the House floor. Whether or not it gets nasty depends on who the candidates are. Hillary-McCain will be a 2 monkeys in a cage doing a shit sling-o-rama. Obama's run a positive campaign up to now, I don't think that will change. He's at his best staying positive and above the fray. McCain won't fire the first shot at him, and if its McCain-Obama he'll have to steer clear of anything that could be interpreted as racial. Notice what's happened recently with Bill Clinton and how its backfired on Hillary. Sister Soljah didn't work this time.

McCain's success is evidence that talk radio holds less and less sway. They should have the most influence in the low turnout primaries, and their wall to wall stumping for Romney is falling on deaf ears. The talk radio types are in a tough spot. They've been attacking McCain for the past 6-8 years. Especially over his very high profile disagreements with the Bush administration (nevermind the fact Mccain voted and agreed with them 90% of the time). So its tough for them to support him now, without looking like hypocrites. But they'll eventually hold their noses and support him. I think they're banking on Hillary making that easy for them to do.

[Zorro]

Bob Perry & his Texas buddies created the Swiftboaters. This was old-fashioned dirty politics on a grand scale. And for the record, the shit John Kerry said about Vietnam was criticism of the leadership, not of the men.

Can we get back to 2008 please?

I am not arguing with you. The attacks on Kerry were awful, but having served in the military I understood the anger. He decried his military service then tried to use that same service to political advantage. BTW Kerry did attack the behavior of individual troops. That being said these are my last comments on the subject.

[A.J.]

You just reminded me of something when you mentioned McCain being shot down.

As I recall, Napoleon was asked what qualities he wanted in his officers the government would send him and he said he wanted men who were lucky.
McCain, especially when it comes to aircraft, is exceedingly unlucky.

* He crashed one in flight training before he even got his wings,

* then he crashed another one before shipping out to Vietnam,

* then he got shot down,

* and several years ago he tried flying one-a them ultralight doohickeys and crashed that!

I'd say not dying each time is pretty lucky.

[FUNKMAN]

He's also been more critical of Bush on actual policy issues than any other Republican in Congress. If he has to play the good soldier the rest of the time to keep the Republican crazies from turning on him then so be it. Torture, the handling of Iraq, campaign finance, and illegal wiretapping - these things matter. Gladhanding of nutjobs in your party - not so much.

McCain is the most important "maverick" politician in national politics, and that's saying something given the price he's paying for it politically today. He's the one guy I can say truly puts the interest of the country before his party or his career.

As for his hero status: Once a person puts their ass on the line and is captured by the enemy - instant hero status!

Beyond that McCain made concious decisions that cost him years of unimaginable suffering for the sake of his fellow soldiers and this country. He paid a price higher than any of us will ever pay for anything, and he paid it willingly and knowingly. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McCain#Prisoner_of_war) There is no excuse for that man's sacrifice ever to be called into question!


ALRIGHT ALRIGHT ALRIGHT!

it's not the only thing I wrote in the post DAMMIT!

What about his wanting to give further Corporate tax breaks while at these corporations CEO's and Executives continue to make record salaries and bonuses as they out-source, reduce medical benefits, and layoff? Why do you think people are unable to pay for their homes, credit cards, and car payments...

He's suggesting a 100 more years in Iraq and "the surge is working" did he not learn anything from Vietnam. Does he not understand the cost financially and in lives that have already been spent and the trillions of dollars that will need to be spent to stay in Iraq?

He also wants to keep the tax break for the wealthiest americans who don't need it.

All these things are contributors to the recession we're feeling now and you know what the big joke is. They're calling for a stimulus package to give the poor and middle-class, the people getting fucked over a 600 or 1200 rebate so they can go spend it to 'stimulate the economy' when all it will do is show an temporary improved profit at a corporation that will make a select few some quick money but will not improve good employment for poor or middle-class people...

[TheMojoPin]

I am not arguing with you. The attacks on Kerry were awful, but having served in the military I understood the anger. He decried his military service then tried to use that same service to political advantage. BTW Kerry did attack the behavior of individual troops. That being said these are my last comments on the subject.

But none of his post-war actions negate him having served. He came back ad spoke out aanst how Vietnam was going and being maintained, and against specific soldiers who had commited serious human rights violations.

[Recyclerz]

David Brooks on the mean Hilary:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/05/opinion/05brooks.html?hp

I didn't have this top of mind when I hopped on the Obama-wagon but I think it does illustrate why so many commie-symps like myself can't get behind her as being President.

[high fly]

I had no problem with either John Kerry's military service or his renunciation of it. What pissed me off was that his trying to play both sides. Your the guy that threw away your medals, denounced the military and then at the Democratic National Convention come on stage in a flower draped swift boat mock up shouting "John Kerry ready for duty"...it was bullshit and people saw right through it.

We're Americans and we're pretty dumb but we dig honesty. If Kerry had owned up to the fact that he fought as much against the war as he did in it he would have been fine, but his finnessing just gave the republicans an opportunity to paint him as a flip-flopper. He opened the door they just walked in.

don't get started about the junkie loud mouthed fat radio host and his insults of McCain


Yes, we dig honesty.
The honest fact is that Kerry's words were twisted to make it sound as if he was accusing American troops of atrocities when in fact he was giving a synopsis of testimony given by others.

You make a good point about Kerry giving the GOP ammo to use against him by his clumsy statements.
He also waited 2 weeks to reply to the Not-So-Swift Boaters.
My favorite line of that whole fiasco was when it came out the leader of the Swifties, Roy Hoffman, had put Kerry in for one of his medals for bravery, stating Kerry was "A shining example of completely overwhelming the enemy."

I don't recall a flower-draped boat onstage at the convention, but I do recall Kerry taking the stage with about 10 of his crewmen who were supporting him.

Kerry ran one of the worst campaigns I have ever seen, ceding so many states to Bush that Bush only had to get something like 13% of the vote in the rest of them.

And when Kerry's patriotism was questioned, he shoulda gotten chest-to-chest with Bush at one of the debates and demanded he denounce those scurrilous tactics.

Instead, not only did the scummy swifties get away with it, so did the scummy bastards who slimed McCain in 2000 and are back this time around and it is high time the Republican Party come out and condemn them once and for all...........

[high fly]

Originally Posted by high fly
You just reminded me of something when you mentioned McCain being shot down.

As I recall, Napoleon was asked what qualities he wanted in his officers the government would send him and he said he wanted men who were lucky.
McCain, especially when it comes to aircraft, is exceedingly unlucky.

* He crashed one in flight training before he even got his wings,

* then he crashed another one before shipping out to Vietnam,

* then he got shot down,

* and several years ago he tried flying one-a them ultralight doohickeys and crashed that!



I'd say not dying each time is pretty lucky.



DAMMIT, AJ!

I can't argue that one....

[Gvac]

Seriously...does anyone else shake their head that Hillary, Obama, McCain, and Romney are the BEST the two major parties have to offer?

Don't you think it's pretty pathetic?

For the love of God, people...VOTE THIRD PARTY!!!

[high fly]

Seriously...does anyone else shake their head that Hillary, Obama, McCain, and Romney are the BEST the two major parties have to offer?

Don't you think it's pretty pathetic?

For the love of God, people...VOTE THIRD PARTY!!!


I don't see voting third party as the answer.

I share your opinion of the lack of overall talent we see on the hustings*








* Always fun to drop "hustings."

[scottinnj]

And a quick question: Can anyone define what a "super-delegate" is? I've heard this but don't know what the difference is.

[HBox]

And a quick question: Can anyone define what a "super-delegate" is? I've heard this but don't know what the difference is.

Delegates who can vote for whoever they want no matter what. They are usually state officials and stuff like that.

Bob Menendez is a super delegate. Tonight he said that even if Obama won NJ he would vote for Hillary.

[scottinnj]

Delegates who can vote for whoever they want no matter what. They are usually state officials and stuff like that.

Bob Menendez is a super delegate. Tonight he said that even if Obama won NJ he would vote for Hillary.


Bob Menendez is a super delegate from NJ? He's a super douche. Ha Ha I made a funny!

[NewYorkDragons80]

Seriously...does anyone else shake their head that Hillary, Obama, McCain, and Romney are the BEST the two major parties have to offer?

Don't you think it's pretty pathetic?

For the love of God, people...VOTE THIRD PARTY!!!
I've made it known for the past 9 years that I'm a McCain guy, so as much as it's in vogue to say "This is it?!?!?!" every fucking cycle, I can't think of someone who better represents my beliefs than McCain. Not only that, but when he says he's going to work to patch up the resent between both sides of the politcal aisle, he means it because he's done it. If you disagree with that, good for you. However, I have been waiting for this moment since 2000. A lot of people out there are settling for McCain or Romney or Clinton or Obama, but for me, this is the fuckin guy.

[TheMojoPin]

I've made it known for the past 9 years that I'm a McCain guy, so as much as it's in vogue to say "This is it?!?!?!" every fucking cycle, I can't think of someone who better represents my beliefs than McCain. Not only that, but when he says he's going to work to patch up the resent between both sides of the politcal aisle, he means it because he's done it. If you disagree with that, good for you. However, I have been waiting for this moment since 2000. A lot of people out there are settling for McCain or Romney or Clinton or Obama, but for me, this is the fuckin guy.

Agreed. This is a pretty good pick. It's a false point when people gripe tha "the best" aren't running. When have "the best" ever really run? What even really qualifies as "the best?" Why would voting for a third party be voting for "the best?"

I'm all for mixing it up, but you're never gonna get "the best," whatever that is.

[NewYorkDragons80]

It's a false point when people gripe tha "the best" aren't running. When have "the best" ever really run?
Exactly. Every 4 years everyone from mainstream pundits to shock jocks complain that they have such a sorry group of choices. Especially if you're a Republican, you have absolutely no right to bitch, because Republicans had representation of the every faction of the big tent the likes of which have never been seen, whether you were social, foreign policy, economic, libertarian, or Christian conservative.

[Yerdaddy]

ALRIGHT ALRIGHT ALRIGHT!

it's not the only thing I wrote in the post DAMMIT!



That wasn't directed at anyone in particular and particularly at you in particular as you had already taken back your statement.

[high fly]

And a quick question: Can anyone define what a "super-delegate" is? I've heard this but don't know what the difference is.


They wear capes.........

[scottinnj]

They wear capes.........

You know, I should have seen that coming, but I posted the question anyway.

[high fly]

I gave the rest of the pack a couple of hours before I decided to go with it....

[A.J.]

Seriously...does anyone else shake their head that Hillary, Obama, McCain, and Romney are the BEST the two major parties have to offer?

Don't you think it's pretty pathetic?

For the love of God, people...VOTE THIRD PARTY!!!

I'm considering it.

[ShowerBench]

Obama peaked. Too much Oprah and glitz. This was BEFORE yesterday's vote too.

http://media.gallup.com/poll/graphs/020608DailyUpdateGraph2.gif

http://www.gallup.com/poll/104200/Gallup-Daily-Tracking-Election-2008.aspx

[epo]

Yea....Hillary's doing great. That's why she is essentially tied in delegates, without momentum and essentially broke.

Oh...broke you say? Well, she did loan her campaign $5 million dollars of her own money this past month. (http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/02/06/644157.aspx)

[TheMojoPin]

Obama peaked. Too much Oprah and glitz. This was BEFORE yesterday's vote too.

http://media.gallup.com/poll/graphs/020608DailyUpdateGraph2.gif

http://www.gallup.com/poll/104200/Gallup-Daily-Tracking-Election-2008.aspx

Too much Oprah and glitz? What glitz? And where has Oprah been since the initial endorsement? And why do you assume that's a tren that will go on after Tuesday?

You're like the anti-K.C. of political analysis.

[DolaMight]

Anyone watch Karl Rove on Fox News last night? He was giving insight into the demographic breakdowns for all the primaries. There was no comparison between him and the other analyst/pundits on any network. He really knew which way every tiny district was broken down and which way they would go no matter how obscure they were. Love him or hate him he really was a master of his profession.

[HBox]

Obama peaked. Too much Oprah and glitz. This was BEFORE yesterday's vote too.

http://media.gallup.com/poll/graphs/020608DailyUpdateGraph2.gif

http://www.gallup.com/poll/104200/Gallup-Daily-Tracking-Election-2008.aspx

WHen you get up in the morning, is the first thing you do every single day is find something to bash Obama with?

I wonder whats coming tomorrow.

EDIT: And polls before yesterday's vote are pretty meaningless sicen there was an ACTUAL vote last night and Obama did very well.

[DolaMight]

WHen you get up in the morning, is the first thing you do every single day is find something to bash Obama with?

I wonder whats coming tomorrow.

Obama experimented with drugs.

[PhilDeez]

Not that it matters because they don't, but if the dems went winner take all like the republicans, Hillary would be kicking Obama's tail by over 400 delegates.
Whew good thing it is different - I guess. As one who won't be casting my vote for her or Obama, I should want Hillary to win as she supposedly is an easier opponent for McCain. However, I can't even stand the thought of Hillary having a shot at the White House. I would rather take the bad odds against Obama.

[thejives]

I'm no K.C., but I check pollster and RCP every day too.
http://www.pollster.com/USTopzDems600.png

http://x5a.xanga.com/71ec052003d31172331206/m130899016.jpg

You can see in context that a dip has been followed by another surge in the past. You can't count this guy out.

Plus, Clinton's dropping $5 mil of her own money in the race.
If you want Obama to pull this out, now is a good time to vote with a couple bucks. (https://donate.barackobama.com/page/contribute/yeswecan)

[thejives]

Not that it matters because they don't, but if the dems went winner take all like the republicans, Hillary would be kicking Obama's tail by over 400 delegates.
Whew good thing it is different - I guess. As one who won't be casting my vote for her or Obama, I should want Hillary to win as she supposedly is an easier opponent for McCain. However, I can't even stand the thought of Hillary having a shot at the White House. I would rather take the bad odds against Obama.

Well then vote for Obama in Virginia on Saturday.
Open primary.
Put your money where your mouth is.

[PhilDeez]

Well then vote for Obama in Virginia on Saturday.
Open primary.
Put your money where your mouth is.

Tough call, I will have to see.

[thejives]

Tough call, I will have to see.

McCain's got it wrapped up... might as well.
Besides, the nation will be so much better off if it's an Obama vs. McCain election. You'd be doing us all a favor.

[HBox]

It is so sickening hearing all these Clinton supporters today trying to paint last night as a win and Hillary as the underdog. There's a fucking shill on MSNBC seriously trying to portray Hillary as an underdog, mounting a comeback, comparing her loaning herself money to John Kerry and then called Obama a "fat cat."

EDIT: he then whined that Deval patrick endorsed Obama when he had a position in the Clinton administration and that John kerry endorsed Obama when "Bill Clinton campaigned for him weeks after bypass surgery." I can't imagine ANYONE wtaching this guy and not being COMPLETELY turned off of Hillary.

[epo]

It is so sickening hearing all these Clinton supporters today trying to paint last night as a win and Hillary as the underdog. There's a fucking shill on MSNBC seriously trying to portray Hillary as an underdog, mounting a comeback, comparing her loaning herself money to John Kerry and then called Obama a "fat cat."

Yea...it's pretty funny.

The biggest irony is that Terry McAuliffe is supposedly the best fundraiser in the world and she had to loan herself $5 million to keep up with Obama.

[high fly]

[COLOR=navy][SIZE=2]It is so sickening hearing all these Clinton supporters today trying to paint last night as a win and Hillary as the underdog. There's a fucking shill on MSNBC seriously trying to portray Hillary as an underdog, mounting a comeback, comparing her loaning herself money to John Kerry and then called Obama a "fat cat."




Yep yep yepyepyep, look like you've caught them!

I wonder ho long it will take the rest of the country to realize this and turn against Hillary.

She had my vote until I found out she wasn't an underdog after all.............










I just hope Ron Paul doesn't try that shit.

[Franklyn]

so I have been thinking about all the canidates and realized, then came to terms with the idea that I was voting for race or gender. I didn't have a clear idea from the woman or the black guy of what they wanted to do for the counrty. In fact I think that paul was the clearest of all the cannidates until lastnight. obama's speech was clear and layed out the plans for his administration.
alternative fuels
health coverage
college financial programs
end of the war
Im happy that he finally did this. It was a difference from the inspiraional but uninformative speeches. After last night I think I feel like most of the country that voted for obama.

[thejives]

so I have been thinking about all the canidates and realized, then came to terms with the idea that I was voting for race or gender. I didn't have a clear idea from the woman or the black guy of what they wanted to do for the counrty. In fact I think that paul was the clearest of all the cannidates until lastnight. obama's speech was clear and layed out the plans for his administration.
alternative fuels
health coverage
college financial programs
end of the war
Im happy that he finally did this. It was a difference from the inspiraional but uninformative speeches. After last night I think I feel like most of the country that voted for obama.

Yeah that was a good speech.
I don't understand why people think Obama doesn't lay out specifics on the issues. It's like nobody believes a good speaker can have substance. In order to sound like you have answers you have to speak with a boring monotone.

[high fly]

While listening to right-wing radio icons bluster in high dudgeon today, I couldn't help but wonder if a ticket with Hillary and Obama on it were put up by the Democratic Party, whether the Republicans would feel pressured to have ohhhhh, say, a Condoleezza Rice as veep candidate?

[epo]

NBC is reporting that some Clinton staffers are voluntarily going without pay this month. Link to story here. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23037431/)

Boy, couple that with today's announcement that she lent the campaign $5 Million bucks and you might be looking at a campaign in a bit of trouble.

Of course history tells us one thing...until they quit, don't ever count a Clinton out of an election.

[high fly]

Today Bill O'Really was going off on a rant against NBC and how they are flagrantly supporting Obama....

[Dude!]

Boy, couple that with today's announcement that she lent the campaign $5 Million bucks and you might be looking at a campaign in a bit of trouble.

i heard a talking head say tonight that this was just a ploy to appeal to women

she now does mass emails/callings to raise money from the gals with the story line
wont you please help a sister
i need your money...look I believe in womens causes so much i put in 5 mil of my own

please help a gal when shes down

women go for these sob stories big time

[epo]

i heard a talking head say tonight that this was just a ploy to appeal to women

she now does mass emails/callings to raise money from the gals with the story line
wont you please help a sister
i need your money...look I believe in womens causes so much i put in 5 mil of my own

please help a gal when shes down

women go for these sob stories big time

I'm on the mailing list for both Clinton & Obama's campaign. They both flagrantly beg for money on a daily basis....so I would seriously doubt a new begging tactic is going to work.

Plus, I thought Terry McAuliffe was supposed to be the best fundraiser in the country. Why isn't he delivering?

[thejives]

Whatever's happening with this fundraising thing ... Obama's supporters are really rallying to put some resources into the campaign. (http://my.barackobama.com/page/contribute_c/sincefeb5_email/graphic)

[epo]

Whatever's happening with this fundraising thing ... Obama's supporters are really rallying to put some resources into the campaign. (http://my.barackobama.com/page/contribute_c/sincefeb5_email/graphic)

I'll admit it. He got me last night.

Maybe I was just weak after Gvac left.

[high fly]

She has a commanding lead and shows no signs of weakening politically.

Money is not a problem for Hillary.....

[thejives]

I'll admit it. He got me last night.

Maybe I was just weak after Gvac left.

I've dropped some bucks for him too.
And I feel good about it.

I'd hate myself if I gave Clinton money.

[epo]

She has a commanding lead and shows no signs of weakening politically.

Money is not a problem for Hillary.....

A commanding lead? In popular vote delegates she is losing!

The current delegate count:

Obama - 805 popular vote, 128 super delegates = 933 total.
Clinton - 801 popular vote, 211 super delegates = 1012 total.

Her weaknesses are momentum, message & money.
His weakness is institutional support.

And I'll say this again, if the candidate leading in the popular vote delegates does not get the nomination via the super delegates, the party will destroy itself.

[scottinnj]

Today Bill O'Really was going off on a rant against NBC and how they are flagrantly supporting Obama....

Did Keith Olbermann make him the "worst person in the world" again?

[thejives]

Yeah.
This is looking like a real fight now.
I can't emphasize how important Virginia, Wisconsin, Washington, Louisiana, and the other states coming up this weekend will be. It's kind of cool, because it's been a while since primaries have been important this far into it.

If you've got a caucus or primary coming up, participate! And drag your friends, no matter who they're supporting. It's a very self-satisfying way to feel like you're doing something selfless.

[HBox]

A commanding lead? In popular vote delegates she is losing!

The current delegate count:

Obama - 805 popular vote, 128 super delegates = 933 total.
Clinton - 801 popular vote, 211 super delegates = 1012 total.

Her weaknesses are momentum, message & money.
His weakness is institutional support.

And I'll say this again, if the candidate leading in the popular vote delegates does not get the nomination via the super delegates, the party will destroy itself.

If that happens its their own fault for keeping this stupid system in the first place. The Republicans ditched it years ago.

[NewYorkDragons80]

No matter what I still can't shake this feeling that Clinton's gonna be the nominee and everything else is simply a distraction/delay.

[scottinnj]

Three of the girls in the lab where I work aren't registered to vote. Funny story, one of them was scared of being drafted.
Anyway, since I couldn't vote for Obama on Tuesday, and found out how easy it is to change party affiliation or just plain register to vote here in NJ, I printed out 3 forms and brought them in.
The girls filled them out and put them in the mail. Even the postage is paid by the state.

And here's the kicker: They want to register to vote for OBAMA in November!

Isn't this bizarre? A Republican doing a voter drive to get people to vote for a Democrat.

Like a bad indy flick.

[epo]

Three of the girls in the lab where I work aren't registered to vote. Funny story, one of them was scared of being drafted.
Anyway, since I couldn't vote for Obama on Tuesday, and found out how easy it is to change party affiliation or just plain register to vote here in NJ, I printed out 3 forms and brought them in.
The girls filled them out and put them in the mail. Even the postage is paid by the state.

And here's the kicker: They want to register to vote for OBAMA in November!

Isn't this bizarre? A Republican doing a voter drive to get people to vote for a Democrat.

Like a bad indy flick.

That is awesome. Regardless of who people are supporting, America could use more involvement from its citizens.

[HBox]

Delegate counts are different all over the place.

MSNBC:
Obama - 838
Hillary-834

CNN:
Obama - 635 pledged 106 super 741 total
Hillary - 630 pledged 193 super 823 total

Fox News:
Obama - 933
Hillary 1024

ABC News
Obama - 940
Hillary 1038

[thejives]

That is awesome. Regardless of who people are supporting, America could use more involvement from its citizens.

Amen.
Nice work scott.
Now I know why I have a poster of you my bedroom cieling.

[epo]

Delegate counts are different all over the place.

MSNBC:
Obama - 838
Hillary-834

CNN:
Obama - 635 pledged 106 super 741 total
Hillary - 630 pledged 193 super 823 total

Fox News:
Obama - 933
Hillary 1024

ABC News
Obama - 940
Hillary 1038

I have no idea what CNN is using. MSNBC, ABC & Fox are basically using the same numbers, but Fox & ABC aren't breaking down the delegate/super delegate split.

Some of the delegates from yesterday haven't officially been determined yet in areas like California. (Seriously their formula is a little insane.) So the "experts" are either estimating preliminary numbers or sticking with firmer numbers, which explains the difference.

[scottinnj]

That is awesome. Regardless of who people are supporting, America could use more involvement from its citizens.

I've been hearing stories like that on Ed Schultz's show all week leading up to Tuesday.


Now I just have to encourage them to keep using their MySpace and contacts all over the country to vote for Obama.



This can happen. And when I take a step back, and look at the bigness of this, it is really the ultimate grassroots campaign vs. the established machine. And if we pull this off, it'll be "by the people, for the people"

[scottinnj]

Amen.
Nice work scott.
Now I know why I have a poster of you my bedroom cieling.

Oh dude, on voting day, I am a maniac. My wife votes just to get me off her back and to stop the 200 voicemails I send her at work-"didja vote yet didja vote yet didja vote yet"

At work they call me the white Diddy. "Vote or Die!"

I take voting seriously. I want as many people who can vote to do so. No matter who they support. When most people stay home, I get scared that some day the vote will be taken from us. And that would be bad.

[TheMojoPin]

According to Obama's site, his campaign has raised almost $6,1120,000 since polls closed yesterday.

Take that and your $5 million of your own money, Clintons.

[scottinnj]

According to Obama's site, his campaign has raised almost $6,1120,000 since polls closed yesterday.

Take that and your $5 million of your own money, Clintons.

I donated 20 before Tuesday. I'm sending some more next week when I get paid.

[scottinnj]

Do you think the Clintons are going to go down the low road and challenge the party to get the Florida and Michigan delegates into the convention?

[thejives]

Do you think the Clintons are going to go down the low road and challenge the party to get the Florida and Michigan delegates into the convention?

Definitely.
They're already doing it.

Florida Democrats seem to have been screwed over by the republican state legislature, so they have a pretty good argument. In order to win, Obama will need to break that margin.

[TheMojoPin]

Definitely.
They're already doing it.

Florida Democrats seem to have been screwed over by the republican state legislature, so they have a pretty good argument. In order to win, Obama will need to break that margin.

Wouldn't Dean be a pretty big hurdle to get over to make that happen? He and the Clintons aren't exactly friendly, and it's not like he'd have to let them count to ensure the selection of a viable Democratic candidate.

[thejives]

Wouldn't Dean be a pretty big hurdle to get over to make that happen? He and the Clintons aren't exactly friendly, and it's not like he'd have to let them count to ensure the selection of a viable Democratic candidate.

I'm no expert, but from what I understand delegates are seated by a seating committee. Dean controls a certain number of the people on the seating committee, but not all of them.

Dean has said that he wants the nomination sewn up by April, so it's likely that he'd try to sway superdelegates to get behind the leading nominee to make Florida moot so they can be sat anyway.

According to this mydd article (http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/2/7/03314/63374#commenttop) Obama needs a 111 delegate lead going into the caucus in order to do that.

[epo]

Wouldn't Dean be a pretty big hurdle to get over to make that happen? He and the Clintons aren't exactly friendly, and it's not like he'd have to let them count to ensure the selection of a viable Democratic candidate.

In terms of the Michigan & Florida delegates, don't expect Howard Dean to lift a finger.

All of the candidates signed off an agreement that any state that broke party rules for the party of their primary/caucus would not have their state's delegates seated. The only candidate that protested this decision was Dennis Kucinch.

Hillary's current protest is simple political grandstanding and done so in the face of the party chairman the Clintons did not support. She honestly has no leg to stand on here.

[Dude!]

what would happen if it looked to the blacks like the clinton brothers stole the nomination from obama in an underhanded manner... like the michigan-florida thing

and then mccain put a respectable black republican as his vice prez

would some blacks defect to mcain

other than c powell and condolisa rice r there any respected black repubs that could fit the bill

[Yerdaddy]

Anyone watch Karl Rove on Fox News last night? He was giving insight into the demographic breakdowns for all the primaries. There was no comparison between him and the other analyst/pundits on any network. He really knew which way every tiny district was broken down and which way they would go no matter how obscure they were. Love him or hate him he really was a master of his profession.

That's because he's Quato from Total Recall

http://www.warpedimage.com/warpedbg/quato-hq.jpg

"They want lower... taxes in Provo... Utah... Quaaaaaaaade!"

[high fly]

Rove's "success" came from being an ardent disciple, along with his pal Lee Atwater, of Harvey Dent, who gave the GOP the "Southern Strategy" to appeal to racists in the Deep South.
Dent, and then Rove and Atwater were "successful" in exploiting baser instincts and being pleased with the scummiest political tactics I have ever seen.



And look at the gullible right-wingers they had to work with.
Good grief, Reagan, Bush and Bush combined to set record after record sized deficit, turned us from being the world's largest creditor nation to being the worlds largest debtor nation, added trillions and trillions to the national debt, but to this day Republicans STILL think they are the party of fiscal responsibility....

[NewYorkDragons80]

Rove's "success" came from being an ardent disciple, along with his pal Lee Atwater, of Harvey Dent, who gave the GOP the "Southern Strategy" to appeal to racists in the Deep South.
http://matsukaze.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/i_believe_in_harvey_dent.jpg

[sailor]

I have no idea what CNN is using. MSNBC, ABC & Fox are basically using the same numbers, but Fox & ABC aren't breaking down the delegate/super delegate split.

Some of the delegates from yesterday haven't officially been determined yet in areas like California. (Seriously their formula is a little insane.) So the "experts" are either estimating preliminary numbers or sticking with firmer numbers, which explains the difference.

here's a bit of an explanation. (http://slate.com/blogs/blogs/trailhead/archive/2008/02/06/delegate-count-chaos.aspx)

[Jujubees2]

Some of the delegates from yesterday haven't officially been determined yet in areas like California. <b>(Seriously their formula is a little insane.)</b> So the "experts" are either estimating preliminary numbers or sticking with firmer numbers, which explains the difference.

Isn't the whole idea of delegates insane? (Not to mention the electoral college in the general election). When I voted in New York, I first voted for the candidate and then had to vote for five delegates. And I could have chosen delegates who weren't affiliated with the candidate I chose.

[extracheese]

http://http://www.wqad.com/Global/link.asp?L=259460 (http://www.wqad.com/Global/link.asp?L=259460)


This website asks you a few questions and tells you which candidate you relate to.

[Recyclerz]

Definitely.
They're already doing it.

Florida Democrats seem to have been screwed over by the republican state legislature, so they have a pretty good argument. In order to win, Obama will need to break that margin.

I agree with Jives on this. If the delegate count comes out basically a tie, the Clinton Bros. will use this as their wild card and I can't think of a plausible winning arguement to counter it. If Obama has a significant lead in delegates but not enough to win outright, a combination of the party structure standing strong for enforcing those rules and a storyline that people can buy into about Obama demonstrating the outreach that his rubes (myself included) believe he has, could beat Billary. His ability to raise cash might give him the edge he needs. But if it's a jump ball (like 2000), the win is going to the one who wants it more - and the Clinton elbows are being sharpened as we speak.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/07/us/politics/07dems.html?ref=politics

An article that shows Ronnie is mostly right on the Obama phenomenon thus far. (But in a shocker, only mostly right.)

[Dude!]

Rove's "success" came from being an ardent disciple, along with his pal Lee Atwater, of Harvey Dent, who gave the GOP the "Southern Strategy" to appeal to racists in the Deep South.

apparently bill clinton took a page from this play book in south carolina
not only to appeal to racist whites but also to appeal to racist hispanics out west
thats why i hate him so much now

[topless_mike]

scratch romney from the roster.

[Zorro]

scratch romney from the roster.

"Suspending" campaign... translation McCain death watch begins

[bobrobot]

scratch romney from the roster.

Wow, this shocked me!!!

http://www.siliconvalleywatcher.com/mt/archives/Roosterreal.jpg

Oops, I thought ya said ROOSTER!!!

[Zorro]

Bobo's back, Bobo's back, Bobo's back, Bobo's back, Bobo's back, Bobo's back, Bobo's back, Bobo's back, Bobo's back, Bobo's back, Bobo's back, Bobo's back, Bobo's back, Bobo's back, Bobo's back, Bobo's back, Bobo's back, Bobo's back, Bobo's back, Bobo's back, Bobo's back, Bobo's back, Bobo's back, Bobo's back, Bobo's back, Bobo's back, Bobo's back, Bobo's back, Bobo's back, Bobo's back, Bobo's back, Bobo's back !!!

[bobrobot]

Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone, Romney's gone!!!

(tryin 2 stay on topic!!!)

[Franklyn]

Yeah that was a good speech.
I don't understand why people think Obama doesn't lay out specifics on the issues. It's like nobody believes a good speaker can have substance. In order to sound like you have answers you have to speak with a boring monotone.

I agree but I do wish he made his explaination as exciting as his other speeches and his other speeches as clear and outlined as this speech.

[K.C.]

"Suspending" campaign... translation McCain death watch begins

A lot of talk that the 'graciousness' of Romney's speech towards McCain suggests McCain may put him on the ticket to appease the base.

It'll help with the neo-cons, but it still won't appease the Christian Conservatives.

[foodcourtdruide]

Ok, this is what I'm thinking:

McCain will gain more votes than he will lose if he went with a democrat as his running mate. The conservatives hate O'bama and Clinton so much that they'll never give them the election. I think McCain would steal a TON of votes if he runs with a democrat VP, he'd gain more that way than taking a super conservative.

[topless_mike]

Ok, this is what I'm thinking:

McCain will gain more votes than he will lose if he went with a democrat as his running mate. The conservatives hate O'bama and Clinton so much that they'll never give them the election. I think McCain would steal a TON of votes if he runs with a democrat VP, he'd gain more that way than taking a super conservative.

mccain is a closet lib.
if he runs with a democrat vp, he's got it locked up.
when have you ever seen so much publicity by the mass media towards a republican?

[Furtherman]

See ya Romney!

Don't the door hit you in the magic underwear!

[foodcourtdruide]

mccain is a closet lib.
if he runs with a democrat vp, he's got it locked up.
when have you ever seen so much publicity by the mass media towards a republican?

What do you mean? Both candidates always get tons of publicity, even the ones that have no chance at all.

[Furtherman]

I've only heard yap heads like Limbaugh and that tall blond skinny guy up in arms about McCain. He's better than Hillary and has more experience than Obama. Then again, who cares what they say.

[Zorro]

Then again, who cares what they say.

Doughy white men in the midwest

[Furtherman]

Doughy white men in the midwest

Unfortunately right.

[DolaMight]

mccain is a closet lib.
if he runs with a democrat vp, he's got it locked up.
when have you ever seen so much publicity by the mass media towards a republican?

McCain no more a liberal than he is a conservative. He makes decisions based on own his beliefs and values and sometimes they're on the left and some on the right. He really is neither liberal or conservative and that's a good thing.



When you vote for McCain you're getting a president not a political party. There's no one else out there you can count on to to look out for the interests of country rather than party. Obama maybe but how do you know? He has no record. You know what you're getting with the Clinton brothers. McCain has made so many enemies in his own party by voting for what he thinks is right, it's indisputable that he would be the least likely to be a pawn for corporations, religion or political creed. A rare thing these days.

I'm not looking forward to the general election though because he's gonna have to say some things that he probably doesn't believe in just to win, a sad reality that's true for any candidate.

[epo]

Ok, this is what I'm thinking:

McCain will gain more votes than he will lose if he went with a democrat as his running mate. The conservatives hate O'bama and Clinton so much that they'll never give them the election. I think McCain would steal a TON of votes if he runs with a democrat VP, he'd gain more that way than taking a super conservative.

I couldn't disagree more.

McCain needs to run with a hard conservative to appease the base. His biggest problem is that there are two factions of that base that he doesn't appeal to: the christian conservatives & the big-money conservatives. So somebody like Huckabee would be a great choice for somebody like Sen. McCain.

If McCain were to pick an independent or democrat (a.k.a. Joesph Isadore Lieberman), he essentially would be picking a mirror image of himself by the perception of those two factions within the Republican Party. This would open him up to a third party and would ruin the small chances he already has.

A VP needs to protect you against perception or regional issues. Anything but a hardline conservative for McCain accomplishes nothing for him.

[DolaMight]

If McCain were to pick an independent or democrat (a.k.a. Joesph Isadore Lieberman), he essentially would be picking a mirror image of himself by the perception of those two factions within the Republican Party. This would open him up to a third party and would ruin the small chances he already has.

A VP needs to protect you against perception or regional issues. Anything but a hardline conservative for McCain accomplishes nothing for him.

True, he has to pick someone to appease the right wing as soon as possible to reduce the potential of a 3rd party candidate popping up to siphon off votes from the right. It's likely to be another 50/50 election and he's sure to get ralph nader'd with a liberal, moderate, or independent VP.

To offset the nader effect in 00 Gore woulda been better off choosing a Kusinich type for VP instead of Lieberman who basically agreed with everything Gore did.

I don't care who he picks, in the end the vice president is as powerful as the prez allows him/her to be. Short of death and tiebreaker vote it's not that important of a role.

[Recyclerz]

I couldn't disagree more.

McCain needs to run with a hard conservative to appease the base. His biggest problem is that there are two factions of that base that he doesn't appeal to: the christian conservatives & the big-money conservatives. So somebody like Huckabee would be a great choice for somebody like Sen. McCain.

If McCain were to pick an independent or democrat (a.k.a. Joesph Isadore Lieberman), he essentially would be picking a mirror image of himself by the perception of those two factions within the Republican Party. This would open him up to a third party and would ruin the small chances he already has.

A VP needs to protect you against perception or regional issues. Anything but a hardline conservative for McCain accomplishes nothing for him.

I'm tending to disagree with your assumptions. I think you're assuming Karl Rove's template is still correct (roughly 50-50 electorate, juice up the turn out of your hard core supporters, suppress the lightly affiliated, independent vote). I think that the 2006 blew that up, in that Bush & Co. fucked up so supremely badly that the independents who don't pay close attention to politics finally realized what we haters were saying all along.

I think a winning coalition in 2008 is a Democrat who could hold his (or her) base and who could appeal to the 20-30% of independents who are open to "change". That's why I'm on the Obama-wagon and am leery of Hillary.

[foodcourtdruide]

I couldn't disagree more.

McCain needs to run with a hard conservative to appease the base. His biggest problem is that there are two factions of that base that he doesn't appeal to: the christian conservatives & the big-money conservatives. So somebody like Huckabee would be a great choice for somebody like Sen. McCain.

If McCain were to pick an independent or democrat (a.k.a. Joesph Isadore Lieberman), he essentially would be picking a mirror image of himself by the perception of those two factions within the Republican Party. This would open him up to a third party and would ruin the small chances he already has.

A VP needs to protect you against perception or regional issues. Anything but a hardline conservative for McCain accomplishes nothing for him.

Awesome, I never disagree with you epo! However, I do here.

The base will vote for McCain because they have no choice. It'll either be McCain or Obama/Clinton. A third party may come along, but do you honestly think a third party can make a serious run at the white house? Hardline conservatives will vote for the third party, but the majority of this country is moderate.

Also, I think a portion of the base will stick with McCain based solely on him being a more viable candidate, a white male and a republican.

More importantly McCain + democrat will completely split the democrat vote. I don't think democrats are in love with Obama or Clinton and McCain + demvp will steal many moderate democrats, many more than the hardline conservatives they'd lose.

[epo]

There are a few assumptions here that I disagree with:

A. That a democrat would jump to run with McCain. Honestly everyone in the Democratic Party is fired up to win the White House. If you did find a "democrat" to run with Senator McCain, it would be a DINO (democrat in name only) and would honestly not sway a single left-leaning voter in this country, especially when McCain is in many ways running for a 3rd Bush term (in policy).

B. The most likely "democrat" to do this is Lieberman. Let me repeat myself: The most likely "democrat" to do this is Lieberman. And as a democrat, I can tell you that Lieberman is public enemy #2 to the Democratic Party. (#1 being Bush).

C. In a 50/50 world, a 3rd party could crush Lieberman. Perfect examples of this are Perot to Bush Sr. and Nader to Gore. That 5-10% fragmentation is easily enough to swing the election. They do not need to be a serious candidate for election, but the fragmentation is what matters.

D. Democrats are "in love" with Obama and pragmatically "in like" with Clinton.

E. Honestly, would you vote for this ticket?

http://media.philly.com/images/20071218_dn_g1lieb18w.jpg

[epo]

True, he has to pick someone to appease the right wing as soon as possible to reduce the potential of a 3rd party candidate popping up to siphon off votes from the right. It's likely to be another 50/50 election and he's sure to get ralph nader'd with a liberal, moderate, or independent VP.

To offset the nader effect in 00 Gore woulda been better off choosing a Kusinich type for VP instead of Lieberman who basically agreed with everything Gore did.

I don't care who he picks, in the end the vice president is as powerful as the prez allows him/her to be. Short of death and tiebreaker vote it's not that important of a role.

Exactly. Any candidate for president needs to pick a VP candidate who fills in their weaknesses.

Bush Sr. was "old & southern", so he picked Quayle who was a "young midwestern".
Kerry was a "northern liberal", so he picked Edwards who was a "southern star".

McCain is a "old, rogue republican" so he'll need somebody who is younger & more ideological.
Clinton would need a good-looking male with personality. (i.e. Sen. Bayh)
Obama would need an experienced governor from a southern or western state.

[foodcourtdruide]

There are a few assumptions here that I disagree with:

A. That a democrat would jump to run with McCain. Honestly everyone in the Democratic Party is fired up to win the White House. If you did find a "democrat" to run with Senator McCain, it would be a DINO (democrat in name only) and would honestly not sway a single left-leaning voter in this country, especially when McCain is in many ways running for a 3rd Bush term (in policy).

B. The most likely "democrat" to do this is Lieberman. Let me repeat myself: The most likely "democrat" to do this is Lieberman. And as a democrat, I can tell you that Lieberman is public enemy #2 to the Democratic Party. (#1 being Bush).

C. In a 50/50 world, a 3rd party could crush Lieberman. Perfect examples of this are Perot to Bush Sr. and Nader to Gore. That 5-10% fragmentation is easily enough to swing the election. They do not need to be a serious candidate for election, but the fragmentation is what matters.

D. Democrats are "in love" with Obama and pragmatically "in like" with Clinton.

E. Honestly, would you vote for this ticket?

http://media.philly.com/images/20071218_dn_g1lieb18w.jpg

A. I think a democrat would definitely jump. I'll have to do some research later to tell you who I think would be a possible jumper, but they could tout themselves as a great leader of a bi-partisan revolution.

B. If it's Lieberman they will lose. I don't think it should be Lieberman. That would defeat the purpose entirely.

C. I think a lot of the people that would vote for the third party probably wouldn't vote for McCain to begin with. I could see a Christian Conservative third party regardless of McCain's choice of VP.

D. I disagree with you here. If they were so in love with Obama he'd be light years ahead of Clinton.

E. Yes.

[TheMojoPin]

E. Honestly, would you vote for this ticket?

http://media.philly.com/images/20071218_dn_g1lieb18w.jpg

I want to scream "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!", but then thinking about it, they'd probably get so much shit actually accomplished.

I'm torn.

[Freakshow]

If Lieberman was Democrat enemy #2, he wouldn't still be a Senator. There had to be a boatload of Dems in CT that still voted for him, cause I don't think there are enough non-dems in that blue state. But I think there is 0% chance he's the nominee.

I still wouldn't rule out Romney as a VP. Supposedly one of the ugliest primaries in history was Regan vs HW Bush in '80. And yet they wound up on the same ticket, and we all know the rest. (I don't know this personally cause I was 2 then). I've been told it was actually HW who coined the term 'Voodoo Economics' for Regan's trickle-down policies.

[foodcourtdruide]

If Lieberman was Democrat enemy #2, he wouldn't still be a Senator. There had to be a boatload of Dems in CT that still voted for him, cause I don't think there are enough non-dems in that blue state. But I think there is 0% chance he's the nominee.

I still wouldn't rule out Romney as a VP. Supposedly one of the ugliest primaries in history was Regan vs HW Bush in '80. And yet they wound up on the same ticket, and we all know the rest. (I don't know this personally cause I was 2 then). I've been told it was actually HW who coined the term 'Voodoo Economics' for Regan's trickle-down policies.

I always heard the same thing.

[high fly]

Rove's "success" came from being an ardent disciple, along with his pal Lee Atwater, of Harvey Dent, who gave the GOP the "Southern Strategy" to appeal to racists in the Deep South.




apparently bill clinton took a page from this play book in south carolina
not only to appeal to racist whites but also to appeal to racist hispanics out west
thats why i hate him so much now



Are you saying you liked him before?

Is that what you are saying?


Are you really up on the specifics of what Dent, Atwater, Rove and their disciples did and approved of?




.

[Zorro]

True, he has to pick someone to appease the right wing as soon as possible to reduce the potential of a 3rd party candidate popping up to siphon off votes from the right. It's likely to be another 50/50 election and he's sure to get ralph nader'd with a liberal, moderate, or independent VP.

To offset the nader effect in 00 Gore woulda been better off choosing a Kusinich type for VP instead of Lieberman who basically agreed with everything Gore did.

I don't care who he picks, in the end the vice president is as powerful as the prez allows him/her to be. Short of death and tiebreaker vote it's not that important of a role.

Youth will trump all other considerations for McCain's VP pick. Age is his achilles heel.

[Freakshow]

Youth will trump all other considerations for McCain's VP pick. Age is his achilles heel.

So, I wonder what Dan Quale is up to right now.

[epo]

Alright, if he could as some of you guys think, what current democrat would run as VP with John McCain.

My caveat is that you have to explain not only why its good for McCain, how its appealing to voters and how it helps the politician that accepts the selection.

[high fly]

I couldn't disagree more.

McCain needs to run with a hard conservative to appease the base. His biggest problem is that there are two factions of that base that he doesn't appeal to: the christian conservatives & the big-money conservatives. So somebody like Huckabee would be a great choice for somebody like Sen. McCain.

If McCain were to pick an independent or democrat (a.k.a. Joesph Isadore Lieberman), he essentially would be picking a mirror image of himself by the perception of those two factions within the Republican Party. This would open him up to a third party and would ruin the small chances he already has.

A VP needs to protect you against perception or regional issues. Anything but a hardline conservative for McCain accomplishes nothing for him.


I agree with you almost entirely, but disagee on Lieberman.
Lieberman is misunderstood becauseof his stand on Iraq.
On everything else he is pretty far to the left of center.

Lieberman, an orthodox jew, doen't help McCain in the Deep South, where he is weak.
He needs a Huckabee.
If he were to go with a DINO, "Zig Zag" Zell Miller would be better for him than Lieberman...

[Zorro]

So, I wonder what Dan Quale is up to right now.

Young not stupid...

isn't it the base that got McCain the nod in the first place?

[epo]

I agree with you almost entirely, but disagee on Lieberman.
Lieberman is misunderstood becauseof his stand on Iraq.
On everything else he is pretty far to the left of center.

Lieberman, an orthodox jew, doen't help McCain in the Deep South, where he is weak.
He needs a Huckabee.
If he were to go with a DINO, "Zig Zag" Zell Miller would be better for him than Lieberman...

That's why I talked about the "perception of Lieberman", rather than the historical voting record.

[keithy_19]

Alright, if he could as some of you guys think, what current democrat would run as VP with John McCain.

My caveat is that you have to explain not only why its good for McCain, how its appealing to voters and how it helps the politician that accepts the selection.

The perfect team. McCain as president, Obama as VP. In 4 or 8 years, Obama takes over. I solved it all. :smoke:

[Bulldogcakes]

Delegate counts are different all over the place.

MSNBC:
Obama - 838
Hillary-834

CNN:
Obama - 635 pledged 106 super 741 total
Hillary - 630 pledged 193 super 823 total

Fox News:
Obama - 933
Hillary 1024

ABC News
Obama - 940
Hillary 1038


Somebody explain to me what Super delegates are, why they exist and how they get in one column or another.

It seems to me like its just a way of tilting the scale toward the insiders choice. How does Hillary get almost double when the popular vote has them about even?

[epo]

The perfect team. McCain as president, Obama as VP. In 4 or 8 years, Obama takes over. I solved it all. :smoke:

Appealing to McCain, appealing to voters, but not appealing to a then 47 year old star in the opposite party.

:nono:

[epo]

Somebody explain to me what Super delegates are, why they exist and how they get in one column or another.

It seems to me like its just a way of tilting the scale toward the insiders choice. How does Hillary get almost double when the popular vote has them about even?

Here is a longer article from MSNBC about superdelegates. Link here. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18277678/)

The Wikipedia stub on this as well. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superdelegate)

[high fly]

How does Hillary get almost double when the popular vote has them about even?


The same way Gore got more votes than Bush in 2000 but still lost the election.


Right-wing radio was again quite rewarding today.
People were openly sobbing in calls to Limpbaugh, saying they refuse to vote for McCain.
Manatee opened his show about to go to McCain speaking to CPAC, and said that Republicans there had to be told not to boo McCain after Romney bowed out.

[Bulldogcakes]

Here is a longer article from MSNBC about superdelegates. Link here. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18277678/)

The Wikipedia stub on this as well. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superdelegate)

Muchas gracias.

Holey shit what a fraudulent system. The Republicans are actually more democratic than the Democrats are. Who clearly don't trust their hard core party voters.

[led37zep]

Rush, Hannity and the others will continue to bitch about McCain till Hillary gets the official nod. Then you'll start to see a change in their tone. (maybe not Rush)

However,
McCain will then go and pick a well respected and established Conservative (probably from the south) to make them all happy. Then we'll be one big happy party again.

(Side note: I could also see him going the complete opposite way and picking Lieberman)

[underdog]

Holey shit what a fraudulent system. The Republicans are actually more democratic than the Democrats are. Who clearly don't trust their hard core party voters.

It does sort of fit into the Democrats politics, though. The regular people are too dumb to do anything for themselves, so the government has to do it for them.

[high fly]

Rush, Hannity and the others will continue to bitch about McCain till Hillary gets the official nod. Then you'll start to see a change in their tone. (maybe not Rush).....

.....(Side note: I could also see him going the complete opposite way and picking Lieberman)


Rush leads the way and the others dare not deviate.
I heard parts of McCain's speech on Manatee and it sounded as if the speech was directed more at Limpbaugh that anyone else.

Many callers were saying they would vote for Hillary and following Limpbaugh's line that the country was gonna be ruined and it's better that Hillary get the blame that McCain or any other Republican.
Keep that in mind - that Limpbaugh is predicting disaster for the next president and also keep in mind that Limpbaugh will do his best to see that happens.

[PhilDeez]

Rush leads the way and the others dare not deviate.
I heard parts of McCain's speech on Manatee and it sounded as if the speech was directed more at Limpbaugh that anyone else.

Many callers were saying they would vote for Hillary and following Limpbaugh's line that the country was gonna be ruined and it's better that Hillary get the blame that McCain or any other Republican.
Keep that in mind - that Limpbaugh is predicting disaster for the next president and also keep in mind that Limpbaugh will do his best to see that happens.

As one who typically leans towards the right, I can not express how truly infuriated I am at this outcry from the far right radio/tv morons. Until two weeks ago, I actually thought I liked Hannity until he proceeded to continually act like a 4 year old because his "conservative" candidate was failing behind.
Anyway, I find it difficult to believe the hard core conservative will sit this one out, or go third party. Potentially at stake are several seats on the Supreme Court as well as other Federal nods. Despite his campaign finance and immigration issues, McCain is pretty much in lock step on big issues like abortion, gun control, the war, etc.

[high fly]

It's as if they don't understand the rest of us know that come election time they'll be saying to hold your nose and vote for McCain...

[Bulldogcakes]

If Obama wins the popular vote but loses the primary because of these "Super Delegates" then I don't want to hear a peep from you folks about the 2000 election ever again.

NOT A PEEP.

[scottinnj]

It's as if they don't understand the rest of us know that come election time they'll be saying to hold your nose and vote for McCain...


That's why I voted for McCain then officially left the party. It turns out I've been registered as a Republican at least for the 10 years I've been back in NJ.

[scottinnj]

If Obama wins the popular vote but loses the primary because of these "Super Delegates" then I don't want to hear a peep from you folks about the 2000 election ever again.

NOT A PEEP.

What he said. QFT!!!!

[epo]

If Obama wins the popular vote but loses the primary because of these "Super Delegates" then I don't want to hear a peep from you folks about the 2000 election ever again.

NOT A PEEP.

I've already said that if that scenario were to happen the Democratic Party would burn itself to the ground.

[TheMojoPin]

If Obama wins the popular vote but loses the primary because of these "Super Delegates" then I don't want to hear a peep from you folks about the 2000 election ever again.

NOT A PEEP.

Why not? I would be just as stupid an outcome as 2000.

[epo]

I guess the money race is on. In the last 48 hours the candidates are reporting:

Obama - $7.2 million
Clinton - $6 million

Obama outraised her, but she really needed that cash boost. This helps her campaign a great deal.

[TheMojoPin]

I guess the money race is on. In the last 48 hours the candidates are reporting:

Obama - $7.2 million
Clinton - $6 million

Obama outraised her, but she really needed that cash boost. This helps her campaign a great deal.

True, but Obama raised his from across his base, whereas $5 million of Hillary's came from her own pocket. The seems to indicate Obama's funds will continue to rise much quicker than hers.

[HBox]

If Obama wins the popular vote but loses the primary because of these "Super Delegates" then I don't want to hear a peep from you folks about the 2000 election ever again.

NOT A PEEP.

That makes no sense. I'll be just as pissed and would have nothing to do with causing either.

[epo]

True, but Obama raised his from across his base, whereas $5 million of Hillary's came from her own pocket. The seems to indicate Obama's funds will continue to rise much quicker than hers.

Obama did something really clever today. Once he reached 7.5 million he stopped counting money....seriously what's the point. Rather his campaign is counting individual donations. So far for 2008 they are at over 327K individual donations, with a goal of 500K.

Very clever.

[thejives]

Obama did something really clever today. Once he reached 7.5 million he stopped counting money....seriously what's the point. Rather his campaign is counting individual donations. So far for 2008 they are at over 327K individual donations, with a goal of 500K.

Very clever.

yeah... definitely.
It emphasizes people power and changes the rules. Obama isn't about big donors, he's about ordinary people giving what they can. Here's the link (https://donate.barackobama.com/page/smartproxy/my.barackobama.com/page/contribute_c/sofar08_lp/graphic) to the number of people donating graphic.

[CruelCircus]

Giuliani was counting number of donors from the beginning of his campaign.

I listened to almost all of Hannity today, and he has mostly resigned himself to supporting McCain but has reserved himself the right to criticize his stances on particular issues. He made sure to emphasize he would never vote for Clinton or Obama, which again leaves the listener to deduce that he'll back McCain in the end b/c he has to. Huckabee is a guest tomorrow. That could be an interesting interview.

[NewYorkDragons80]

As one who typically leans towards the right, I can not express how truly infuriated I am at this outcry from the far right radio/tv morons. Until two weeks ago, I actually thought I liked Hannity until he proceeded to continually act like a 4 year old because his "conservative" candidate was failing behind.
Anyway, I find it difficult to believe the hard core conservative will sit this one out, or go third party. Potentially at stake are several seats on the Supreme Court as well as other Federal nods. Despite his campaign finance and immigration issues, McCain is pretty much in lock step on big issues like abortion, gun control, the war, etc.
Yea I am kinda disappointed in Hannity cause he's usually not the venomous demagogue that these other cocks are. He says some weird shit from time to time, but he supported Arnold in CA.

[Franklyn]

the one thing that I notice as a constant on TV is that everyone, dem and rep both feel that there is a larger voter turn out this year for the democrats than ever before. it is being attributed to obama. I would say that based on the states he won, states that usually dont go democrat, that he has the best chance of winning.
if it is the "new black vote" that is changing the numbers, they will not vote for Hilary if Obama looses. It will be seen as another way to cheat the black people. trust me on this one.
however the same people who voted for hillary will vote against a republican just to win.
it is in the dems better interest to vote for obma. personally if obama doesnt win I vote ron paul. I won't be the only one. Mccain is a strong cannidate for black people. I have heard it from older people.
his service as a POW will kill hillary in the polls.
be smart when you vote america, honestly your choice should be a black man or the same. sorry, just see it that way.

Not that it matters because they don't, but if the dems went winner take all like the republicans, Hillary would be kicking Obama's tail by over 400 delegates.
Whew good thing it is different - I guess. As one who won't be casting my vote for her or Obama, I should want Hillary to win as she supposedly is an easier opponent for McCain. However, I can't even stand the thought of Hillary having a shot at the White House. I would rather take the bad odds against Obama.

[foodcourtdruide]

To answer epo, One democrat I could see as a vp on McCain's ticket.

How about Bill Nelson?

He's fallen out of favor with some democrats because of the Florida primary debacle. He's a moderate dem in a red state. His approval ratings in Florida are pretty high and may secure Florida for McCain.

On the negative side, his Iraq war policy differs from McCain (though he did vote for the war) and he's pro-choice (but anti-late term abortion).

[Bulldogcakes]

Why not? I would be just as stupid an outcome as 2000.

Because as Democrats, you'd come across as being hypocritical and duplicitous. Less so for the rank and file, who you could understand being at odds with both systems. But if Hillary or any of the party leaders try to make that argument its laughable. They know better.

BTW-There was nothing stupid about 2000. Unless you have no idea what Bush's campaign strategy was and/or know nothing about the electoral college system. Bush won fair and square, by the rules.