I have such a fascination with The Holocaust

[Alice S. Fuzzybutt]

And I don't really know why. I'm not Jewish, but I am a firm believer that these stories should be told and kept alive as the children of The Holocaust are now dying off.

I just find the stories of survival fascinating. I am always amazed of the will of the human spirit; I've read so many books written by survivors who refused to give up, most notably during the Death Marches.

Am I odd in this fascination?

[Piuki]

I took an entire course on it in college. So, if you're odd, we can be odd together.

[MacVittie]

Nah, I don't think so. It's probably the most important event of the 20th century.

[sr71blackbird]

I see nothing odd about it t all! It effected so many people very deeply and it deserves to be kept alive in memory. Many people think it effected just the jews, but that is not true, so to add variety to your study interest, it might be fascinating to look at that too. Being of Russian background, you might also se how Russia and Germany fought at that time too.

[Alice S. Fuzzybutt]

Being of Russian background, you might also se how Russia and Germany fought at that time too.

That said, I should look MORE into the Ukrainian genocide when Stalin killed his own people with a forced famine (1932-33).

There was also the Armenian genocide (1915-1917) when the Turks slaughtered the Armenians.

[donnie_darko]

have you ever seen the history channel?
its nearly dedicated to WW2, so trust me you aren't alone.

though at least you seem to be on the positive side of the fascination, and not secretly collecting nazi paraphernalia.

[Foster]

have you ever seen the history channel?
its nearly dedicated to WW2, so trust me you aren't alone.

though at least you seem to be on the positive side of the fascination, and not secretly collecting nazi paraphernalia.

come on now, thats another thread

[IamFogHat]

And I don't really know why. I'm not Jewish, but I am a firm believer that these stories should be told and kept alive as the children of The Holocaust are now dying off.

I just find the stories of survival fascinating. I am always amazed of the will of the human spirit; I've read so many books written by survivors who refused to give up, most notably during the Death Marches.

Am I odd in this fascination?

To be honest, I feel like this is the one aspect of our history that is not deteriorating in the minds of each new generation. Because of the fact that it would be horrible and potentially damaging for such a deterioration to take place, I don't think it's an odd fascination at all, in fact I find it quite healthy, as long as you don't obsess and upset yourself too much.

[Alice S. Fuzzybutt]

I find it quite healthy, as long as you don't obsess and upset yourself too much.

No, I don't think my fascination is unhealthy. There are a lot of things in my Netflix queue that is Holocaust related.

I just wonder why no real exposure to Darfur?

I HATE to be the person to say it, but is it racial? Or something else?

If Africa had oil, would the US care more?

[FUNKMAN]

the documentaries fascinate me as well! the thought that comes to mind most often is " what specifically in the brain happens that allows a human being to make a decision to be that awful to another human being ?"

[IamFogHat]

No, I don't think my fascination is unhealthy. There are a lot of things in my Netflix queue that is Holocaust related.

I just wonder why no real exposure to Darfur?

I HATE to be the person to say it, but is it racial? Or something else?

If Africa had oil, would the US care more?

Oh I see what you mean. What I was saying was this is the one point that isn't deteriorating, but I wish it was one of many multitudes, like you mention, Darfur for example. Shit, I don't know where to go from here, I guess the point is good on you for keeping the Holocaust alive in our minds, and at the same time let's all for christ's sake raise awareness about the world's other atrocities to the best of our abilities and not be passive. Yeah?

[Foster]

the documentaries fascinate me as well! the thought that comes to mind most often is " what specifically in the brain happens that allows a human being to make a decision to be that awful to another human being ?"

its as much in our nature to be cruel as it is to kind
experiences during our lives drive our behavior to be one or another

[FUNKMAN]

the documentaries fascinate me as well! the thought that comes to mind most often is " what specifically in the brain happens that allows a human being to make a decision to be that awful to another human being ?"

its as much in our nature to be cruel as it is to kind
experiences during our lives drive our behavior to be one or another

i would say it's in "some" people's nature, not "all" human being's nature... in my mind there has to be something different in the brain between a human being that decided to kill or physically torture another human being, and another human being who makes a decision not to

[Alice S. Fuzzybutt]

its as much in our nature to be cruel as it is to kind
experiences during our lives drive our behavior to be one or another

I don't think that is true. There were SO MANY SAVIORS during WWII.

I will NEVER understand why the US didn't accept refugees after Hitler took power. The US ONLY got involved in WII when we were attacked on December 7th. We could have allowed SO MANY people to immigate to the US when Hitler initially took power, yet, we didn't allow it.

What happened to the "huddled masses?"

[Foster]

i would say it's in "some" people's nature, not "all" human being's nature... in my mind there has to be something different in the brain between a human being that decided to kill or physically torture another human being, and another human being who makes a decision not to

that may be true, but even though Hilter was the leader of Nazi Germany, he couldn't have gotten everyone to do the things they did if they didn't want to. So, did a majority of Germany have brain defects?

[Death Metal Moe]

I find the topic extremely interesting too.

I think it's interesting becuase that was a people at it's absolute WORST. It's facinating at just how horrificly immoral the human race can get. It's kind of the "Can't look away from a train wreck" mentality that keeps ya looking back again and again at the inhumanity.

But then there's the other side showing how strong a people who were being exterminated actually are to have survived through it all. And now they control the media! (Uncomfortable joke)

It's got all the stuff of the greatest movies and stories, why wouldn't it be facinating?

[Drunky McBetidont]

fuzzybutt is probably a jew hating racist. most of these evil thoughts are held deep down in our self conscious. if i were her i would take a bunch of lsd and tear a hole in that wall. then go to a temple and pray for moses and the other jews she has hated all these years.

[FunkyDrummer]

I also wonder about my fascination with the Holocaust and war in general. I know I have members of my grandfather's family who were killed in Ukraine in 1941, while the rest of my Jewish side of the family was able to escape. And on my mom's side, my grandma was taken into forced labor by the Nazis because she was an ethnic Ukrainian. I think her stories really affected me when I was a kid and I've been obsessed with it ever since.

I actually went to the Auschwitz museum in August on my trip to Poland. That was rough...

Have you seen this one yet?
http://www.wwiilectureinstitute.com/films/come.jpg

[Drunky McBetidont]

*

[lleeder]

So does Anthony.

[LaBoob]

My family was affected by the Holocaust and, quite frankly, I wouldn't be alive today if it weren't for this force that ended millions of other lives.

That being said, I'm also obsessed with the Holocaust and all things Hitler/Nazi. Obsessed in a healthy way. I think "fascinated" is the perfect word. It never ceases to amaze me that it even happened. The details behind it are so interesting also... the occult, the psychology of Hitler, and so on. It's something I'll study for the rest of my life.

[Alice S. Fuzzybutt]

fuzzybutt is probably a jew hating racist. most of these evil thoughts are held deep down in our self conscious. if i were her i would take a bunch of lsd and tear a hole in that wall. then go to a temple and pray for moses and the other jews she has hated all these years.

Pound salt, betidont. And while you're at it, go fuck yourself too.

You're NOT funny, nor have you EVER BEEN funny.

[Drunky McBetidont]

Pound salt, betidont. And while you're at it, go fuck yourself too.

You're NOT funny, nor have you EVER BEEN funny.

you are hysterical. I saw your add on craig's list "50-year-old single woman looking for a cat." good luck with that. fuck yourself and your cats you cunt. get a fucking life you old cunt. i hope your adult diapers fit well too.

oh no. it is a mod. guess i am banned. fuck you

[Death Metal Moe]

Wow, that was uncalled for.

And that was after an edit? What, did you read it back and felt you didn't add enough "cunts?"

[Drunky McBetidont]

Wow, that was uncalled for.

And that was after an edit? What, did you read it back and felt you didn't add enough "cunts?"

added the adult diaper line.

she attacked me. fuck her in her barren womb.

[IamFogHat]

Pound salt, betidont. And while you're at it, go fuck yourself too.

You're NOT funny, nor have you EVER BEEN funny.

Ok ok I think he's kidding, if he's not I'm sorry. He has a Hurley avatar so I've always liked him, this is one of those escalating things where you get scared like you parents are coming around thing (mods:furious:), so let's all make up and stop killing our lord.

Ok, now I'm being cheeky.

Where's Bobo?

[Alice S. Fuzzybutt]

she attacked me. fuck her in her barren womb.

No, you called me a jew-hating racist. THAT was the first attack.

I defended myself.

You have two more strikes. Wanna go for two more?

You DON'T HAVE to. But if you do, I'll ban you for a week.

[Drunky McBetidont]

Ok ok I think he's kidding, if he's not I'm sorry. He has a Hurley avatar so I've always liked him, this is one of those escalating things where you get scared like you parents are coming around thing (mods:furious:), so let's all make up and stop killing our lord.

Ok, now I'm being cheeky.

Where's Bobo?

i retract all comments within this thread. sorry for getting cheeky.:glurps:

[Death Metal Moe]

It's clear to me, I blame the Jews.

[Drunky McBetidont]

No, you called me a jew-hating racist. THAT was the first attack.

I defended myself.

You have two more strikes. Wanna go for two more?

You DON'T HAVE to. But if you do, I'll ban you for a week.

what is a strike? ban me. that will hurt me. actually, why don't you post my ip address. or better yet post the email account i used to open this account so that i can get hate mail from all your fans. what the fuck. take a pill and relax. or got to bed.

[IamFogHat]

No, you called me a jew-hating racist. THAT was the first attack.

I defended myself.

You have two more strikes. Wanna go for two more?

You DON'T HAVE to. But if you do, I'll ban you for a week.

I've been known to not read through full threads.:down:
Barren womb? Come on BetIDont prove me right, defend my honor.

[TheMojoPin]

What the hell?

Why is that guy going after Alice?

[Alice S. Fuzzybutt]

i retract all comments within this thread. sorry for getting cheeky.

That's ok. I apologize too.

Pals?


I still don't think you're funny. But whatever.:dry:

[IamFogHat]

Yay! We're all cheeky friends again!:tongue:

[FUNKMAN]

if a jew and hindu marry would they hold sacred the cow menorah?

[Death Metal Moe]

if a jew and hindu marry would they hold sacred the cow menorah?

Ooooof! Can we bring the name calling back please?

[FUNKMAN]

if a jew and hindu marry would they hold sacred the cow menorah?

Ooooof! Can we bring the name calling back please?

aww come on Moe, is it really that bad? i thought that up all by myself :glurps:

[IamFogHat]

aww come on Moe, is it really that bad? i thought that up all by myself :glurps:

I laughed.

[Death Metal Moe]

aww come on Moe, is it really that bad? i thought that up all by myself :glurps:

Oh I can't stay mad at you Funkman! I was only playin' anyway.

:: pulls Funkman in for a completey hetero hug ::

[Drunky McBetidont]

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m82/d8ona/i_suck.jpg

but i am sure at least 3 of my 5000 posts have been funny. ok maybe 2. :(

[FUNKMAN]

Oh I can't stay mad at you Funkman! I was only playin' anyway.

:: pulls Funkman in for a completey hetero hug ::

:wub:

[Death Metal Moe]

:wub:

I said HETERO!!!

Nothing was supposed to come of this!

DAMN IT! Oh well, we'll just have to face the world like this.



Together.

[Drunky McBetidont]

lets get this thread back on target. more about the holocaust!!!

http://www.ethesis.net/holocaust/holocaust_fig_10.jpg

[mikeyboy]

I said HETERO!!!

Nothing was supposed to come of this!

DAMN IT! Oh well, we'll just have to face the world like this.



Together.

That exchange of posts made me giggle -- not a regular laugh -- but a giggle, like a Japanese school girl in uniform with her hand over her mouth.

This may be the worst place on earth.

[FUNKMAN]

I said HETERO!!!

Nothing was supposed to come of this!

DAMN IT! Oh well, we'll just have to face the world like this.



Together.

That exchange of posts made me giggle -- not a regular laugh -- but a giggle, like a Japanese school girl in uniform with her hand over her mouth.

This may be the worst place on earth.


i see a threesome in our future Moe...

[Death Metal Moe]

That exchange of posts made me giggle -- not a regular laugh -- but a giggle, like a Japanese school girl in uniform with her hand over her mouth.

This may be the worst place on earth.

Well isn't that just fucking DANDY! Now not only are there 2 large men hugging, but there's another stubbly faced man in the corner with his hand over his mouth giggling like a dainty Japanese School Girl.

I hope to GOD IN HEAVEN there isn't anyone around with a video camera because THIS is some seriously fucked up shit!

[Death Metal Moe]

i see a threesome in our future Moe...

And Funkman beat me to the 3 way gay joke.

I'm going to bed.

[Death Metal Moe]

without You 2!!!

[El Mudo]

That said, I should look MORE into the Ukrainian genocide when Stalin killed his own people with a forced famine (1932-33).

There was also the Armenian genocide (1915-1917) when the Turks slaughtered the Armenians.




Which the Turks still deny to this day (which is why they aren't in the EU), to the point where there are pages and pages on the Turkish embassy website "refuting" the genocide.

If you get a chance to find something on the Greek/Turkish war that happened right after the Great War, take advantage of it. Its one of the saddest, least remembered events ive ever read about, especially the evacuation/destruction of Smyrna by the Turks

No, I don't think my fascination is unhealthy. There are a lot of things in my Netflix queue that is Holocaust related.

I just wonder why no real exposure to Darfur?

I HATE to be the person to say it, but is it racial? Or something else?

If Africa had oil, would the US care more?

I woudn't say its racial (and Africa DOES have oil, see Nigeria), but the Holocaust "fits" into the greater context of World War Two, which may be the greatest good vs. evil story that we've ever had. It may be putting things too simply, but the "story" of World War Two is just too powerful to overlook...its the ultimate good vs. evil story, and unfortunately, no one really understands the factions within North Africa or the Middle East well enough to make it into a good enough story. Its really really terrible that it comes down to whether something is a "good story" or not, but its just the essential nature of people as ive come to learn (see the story of the 20th Maine in relation to the rest of the battle of Gettysburg)

I don't think that is true. There were SO MANY SAVIORS during WWII.

I will NEVER understand why the US didn't accept refugees after Hitler took power. The US ONLY got involved in WII when we were attacked on December 7th. We could have allowed SO MANY people to immigate to the US when Hitler initially took power, yet, we didn't allow it.

What happened to the "huddled masses?"

Isolationism in part. We didn't want to provoke war with Germany because we were WOEFULLY unprepared for it, even up till 1942 (when we got pummeled at Kasserine Pass). Plus, it seems strange in retrospect, but there were a LOT of people who felt they were "duped" by British tales of German atrocities in Belgium during the Great War, and were loath to believe that people could be indiscriminately put in pens and killed in such a manner...even the Jews themselves that went into the camps never believed that people were capable of such things

[TheMojoPin]

The US ONLY got involved in WII when we were attacked on December 7th. We could have allowed SO MANY people to immigate to the US when Hitler initially took power, yet, we didn't allow it.

It was basically impossible for Roosevelt to enter the US into WW2 before it did due to MASSIVE opposition by the majority of the public and the legislative branch towards the US getting involved in another foreign conflict. In fact, even after Pearl Harbor, most of the country and the government still did not want to go to war with Germany. Roosevelt felt for sometime that war was going to be necessary in Europe against Germany, and was desperate for a reason to go to war with Hitler, but even Pearl Harbor didn't provie a reason to do so. What's typically lost as one of the greatest mysteries of history is why Germany declared war on the US shortly after Pearl Harbor...nobdy can offer a good reason for it. Hitler basically gave Roosevelt the justification he so needed to go to war on Europe. Hitler was under obligation to declare war on the US, but he did anyway.

[El Mudo]

And of everything we know of the Holocaust, we still really know nothing of the horrors of the GULAGs run by the Soviets...we dont have any access to the files (because the Russians won't release them), and there aren't that many accounts.

But for all the terribleness embodied by the Nazis, the Soviets were the TRUE totalitarian state of World War Two. The Nazis were nowhere near as organised as the Soviets in killing their own people, or as efficient, or as merciless. Its estimated that the killed something like 50 million of their own people from the Revolution through the 60s


I highly reccomend this book:

http://ak.buy.com/db_assets/prod_lrg_images/204/31238204.jpg

1945: The War That Never Ended by Gregor Dallas

A wonderful study of the end of the conflict, and how it still basically has never ended, and an amazing and enlightening study of the Soviet machine. Makes the point that in comparing the Nazis and the Soviets, the Nazis really only controlled the larger cities and towns, didn't have the personnel or the manpower to control the country side of the small towns....the Soviets, on the other hand, controlled EVERYTHING

There's also some great stuff about how Stalin DESPERATELY wanted a separate peace with the Germans, but they wouldn't oblige him. He only stopped seeking one when it was no longer in his interest to seek one...i believe he only really stopped seeking one when they got to the Vistula. Hitler could have had a seperate peace with the Soviets anytime he wanted one, but he refused to give up his stupid territorial/racial claim BS...he was too enraptured with the whole Lebensraum gimmick

[El Mudo]

It was basically impossible for Roosevelt to enter the US into WW2 before it did due to MASSIVE opposition by the majority of the public and the legislative branch towards the US getting involved in another foreign conflict. In fact, even after Pearl Harbor, most of the country and the government still did not want to go to war with Germany. Roosevelt felt for sometime that war was going to be necessary in Europe against Germany, and was desperate for a reason to go to war with Hitler, but even Pearl Harbor didn't provie a reason to do so. What's typically lost as one of the greatest mysteries of history is why Germany declared war on the US shortly after Pearl Harbor...nobdy can offer a good reason for it. Hitler basically gave Roosevelt the justification he so needed to go to war on Europe. Hitler was under obligation to declare war on the US, but he did anyway.

I like how Ambrose describes it as "Hitler's looniest of loony decisions"...there was no reason for him to, and he consulted no one. He just basically came up one day and said "oh yeah...we're going to war with the Americans"

[A.J.]

What's typically lost as one of the greatest mysteries of history is why Germany declared war on the US shortly after Pearl Harbor...nobdy can offer a good reason for it. Hitler basically gave Roosevelt the justification he so needed to go to war on Europe. Hitler was under obligation to declare war on the US, but he did anyway.

I like how Ambrose describes it as "Hitler's looniest of loony decisions"...there was no reason for him to, and he consulted no one. He just basically came up one day and said "oh yeah...we're going to war with the Americans"

Tripartite Pact? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tripartite_Pact)

[El Mudo]

Tripartite Pact? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tripartite_Pact)

Tripartite only applied if the Japanese were attacked...the Japs hit us December 7th and the Germans declared war on us December 11th

And Hitler could have given a rats ass about the Pacific...his whole goal was the occupation of Europe and the establishment of "living space" for the "Aryan peoples"

[TheMojoPin]

Tripartite only applied if the Japanese were attacked...the Japs hit us December 7th and the Germans declared war on us December 11th

And Hitler could have given a rats ass about the Pacific...his whole goal was the occupation of Europe and the establishment of "living space" for the "Aryan peoples"

Yup. It's always just assumed Hitler was honoring obligations with Japan in his declaration, but even many in the Japanese government and military high command were surprised by the decision. Most of Hitler's generals and advisors were completely opposed to the idea. Granted, Hitler and many of those around them assumed America would eventually have to be confronted or deat with, but it was assumed that would be waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay down the line after Europe was taken care of. Declaring war on America when he did came out of nowhere and was contrary to what pretty much everyone on every side expected to happen at the time.

[Thebazile78]

And of everything we know of the Holocaust, we still really know nothing of the horrors of the GULAGs run by the Soviets...we dont have any access to the files (because the Russians won't release them), and there aren't that many accounts.

But for all the terribleness embodied by the Nazis, the Soviets were the TRUE totalitarian state of World War Two. The Nazis were nowhere near as organised as the Soviets in killing their own people, or as efficient, or as merciless. Its estimated that the killed something like 50 million of their own people from the Revolution through the 60s
....

Mudo - Have you read Gulag by Anne Applebaum?

It came out in 2003 ... I read the review in Slate, (http://www.slate.com/id/2083535/) but never picked up the book.

Oh, and for those of you wondering "how could people do that to other people?" that's the hypothesis of the Milgram experiment:


Stanley Milgram's Experiments (http://www.cba.uri.edu/Faculty/dellabitta/mr415s98/EthicEtcLinks/Milgram.htm)
The Milgram Experiment: A Lesson in Depravity (http://www.new-life.net/milgram.htm)
Obedience to Authority - The experiment by Stanley Milgram (http://www.age-of-the-sage.org/psychology/milgram_obedience_experiment.html)
The Man Who Shocked the World (http://psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-20020301-000037.html)(Psychology Today, Mar/Apr 2002)


Read them ... it's interesting.

As a follow-up, read about the Stanford Prison Experiment (http://www.prisonexp.org/).

[El Mudo]

I have not read the Gulag book but I will put it on my shortlist


I think I probably would be going too far in labelling people from that time as "naive" because I have the benefit of hindsight...I dont want to call them naive, but I just really need a greater frame of reference in order to understand their thinking/perceptions of the Nazis. This is why I love oral histories so much (thank you Studs Terkel)

[CofyCrakCocaine]

Try out "Gulag Archipelago" by Solshenits...uh...vin? I forget how to spell his name and really have to leave the computer for untold amounts of timeright now so somebody fact check for me.

[El Mudo]

Alexander Solzhenitsyn


Sounds like Andrei and Sergei Kostitsyn (even though I believe they are from Belarus)

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0brF8vcbkv147/610x.jpg


http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/images/sports/photos/2008/04/10/kostitsyn-sergei-392-cp-080410.jpg

[sr71blackbird]

Mudo - Have you read Gulag by Anne Applebaum?

It came out in 2003 ... I read the review in Slate, (http://www.slate.com/id/2083535/) but never picked up the book.

Oh, and for those of you wondering "how could people do that to other people?" that's the hypothesis of the Milgram experiment:


Stanley Milgram's Experiments (http://www.cba.uri.edu/Faculty/dellabitta/mr415s98/EthicEtcLinks/Milgram.htm)
The Milgram Experiment: A Lesson in Depravity (http://www.new-life.net/milgram.htm)
Obedience to Authority - The experiment by Stanley Milgram (http://www.age-of-the-sage.org/psychology/milgram_obedience_experiment.html)
The Man Who Shocked the World (http://psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-20020301-000037.html)(Psychology Today, Mar/Apr 2002)


Read them ... it's interesting.

As a follow-up, read about the Stanford Prison Experiment (http://www.prisonexp.org/).

Wow, that was extremely interesting and insightful. I had not heard of this. I bet it is kind of what happens in Al Quada

[Thebazile78]

Wow, that was extremely interesting and insightful. I had not heard of this. I bet it is kind of what happens in Al Quada

The point is that it happens no matter how you perceive the group from the outside. Taliban, US Army, Serbia, Kosovo, Russia, USSR, Nazis. Doesn't matter. In some situations, people do horrific things to other people for no apparent reason other than "following orders."

The Milgram Experiment was a reaction to the very issue we've been discussing in this thread - how can you turn a blind eye to the suffering of another human being? - and found that, in the presence of a strong enough authority, people are more inclined to follow orders and conform to the authority's expectations than they are to march to their own tune.

Some people have a greater tendency towards sadism as well. (Shown in Milgram with subjects giving progressively larger, more deadly shocks to other subjects ... and, in some instances, recognizing that they themselves enjoyed shocking other testers.)

The Stanford Prison Experiment was bandied about during the Abu Ghraib scandal. That's when I read about it ... it's positively chilling, but, if it's read as an extension of the Milgram Experiment, it seems to prove that power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely (http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/288200.html). (Variant of a quote of Lord Acton.)

[Thebazile78]

Alexander Solzhenitsyn

....

He died early last month (http://www.slate.com/id/2196613/).

I recognized the title of the book, but didn't know the author's name until this year. And I had no idea it was nonfiction ... I've heard so many references to it that I thought it was simply another Russian novel I hadn't read. And, after not particularly enjoying the Russian novel I'd had to read in high school, I wasn't about to face it again.

It sounds interesting.

[AngelAmy]

I'm also obsessed with the Holocaust and all things Hitler/Nazi. Obsessed in a healthy way. I think "fascinated" is the perfect word. It never ceases to amaze me that it even happened. The details behind it are so interesting also... the occult, the psychology of Hitler, and so on. It's something I'll study for the rest of my life.

This is dead on for me.

[TheMojoPin]

The Stanford Prison Experiment was bandied about during the Abu Ghraib scandal.

This film (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0912585/) uses that correlation brilliantly.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/YA0L5Yqhs54&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/YA0L5Yqhs54&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[Thebazile78]

This film (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0912585/) uses that correlation brilliantly.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/YA0L5Yqhs54&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/YA0L5Yqhs54&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Wasn't that film nominated for a documentary Oscar?

[TheMojoPin]

Sadly, no. You might be thinking of this. (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0854678/)

[El Mudo]

I think we tend to forget the Balkans in the greater scope of World War 2...if only for the stuff done by Ante Pavelic and the Ustashi...I think it just dissapears into the whole "oh the Balkans are always like that" kind of thinking...also could be because they were Catholic

According to these testimonies, German officers themselves were dismayed by the atrocities committed by the Ustaše, to the extent that they occasionally intervened to stop the bloodshed (Jasenovac, 1941), arrested one of the most notorious Ustaše (Friar Miroslav Filipović/Majstorović, Banja Luka, 1942) and disarmed an Ustaše detachment (Eastern Bosnia, 1942).
The regime declared in advance its intention to eliminate the Serbian population in NDH by killing one part, expelling a second part and converting the rest.[19] . A Gestapo report to Himmler (17 February 1942) on increased Partisan activities stated that "Increased activity of the bands is chiefly due to atrocities carried out by Ustasha units in Croatia against the Orthodox population. The Ustashas committed their deeds in a bestial manner not only against males of conscript age, but especially against helpless old people, women and children. The number of the Orthodox that the Croats have massacred and sadistically tortured to death is about three hundred thousand."


And the Jasenovac Concentration Camp

* The Jasenovac Memorial Area maintains a list of the names of 69,842 Jasenovac victims, including: 39,580 Serbs, 14,599 Roma, 10,700 Jews, 3,462 Croats, as well as people of some other ethnicities. The memorial puts estimations at minimum 85,000, and up to 100,000 or so. Former director, Simo Brdar, puts it at a minimal 360,000[19]

* The Belgrade Museum of the Holocaust keeps a list of the names of 80,022 victims (mostly from Jasenovac), including: around 52,000 Serbs, 16,000 Jews, 12,000 Croats and nearly 10,000 Roma.[citation needed]. Milan Bulajic, former director, estimates it at 500,000-700,000, and the Jasenovac research institute as 300-700,000.

* Antun Miletić, a researcher at the Military Archives in Belgrade, has collected data on Jasenovac since 1979.[20] His list contains the names of 77,200 victims, of which 41,936 are Serbs.[20]

* In 1998, the Bosniak Institute published SFR Yugoslavia's last List of war victims from the Jasenovac camp from 1992.[21] The list contained the names of 49,602 victims at Jasenovac, including 26,170 Serbs, 8,121 Jews, 5,900 Croats, 1471 Roma, 787 Muslims, 6,792 of unidentifiable ethnicity and the rest identified as "others"

[Thebazile78]

Sadly, no. You might be thinking of this. (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0854678/)

Thanks. But that wasn't the film I was thinking of.

I knew had read about Ghosts, but couldn't remember where. Being pop-culturally isolated, I had assumed it was in a list of Oscar nominees.

But you can't nominate something made for TV for an Oscar. Too bad; it sounds good.

[FunkyDrummer]

http://www.fmh.org.ar/revista/22/elcine.jpg

I own it, but haven't been able to get through all the dvds.

[El Mudo]

I honestly can't even watch Schindler's List.....I made it through a third once and couldn't watch it any more

[Thebazile78]

I honestly can't even watch Schindler's List.....I made it through a third once and couldn't watch it any more

I know what you mean.

My sophomore year of high school, the extra-curricular choral groups I was a member of participated in a choral festival in Washington, DC. One of the spots we toured was the National Holocaust Museum. While we took the "short" tour, it was still emotionally exhausting.

Add to that the fact that I had just been cast in a stage production of I Never Saw Another Butterfly and, as I am not Jewish, purposefully remembered a lot of the details from the exhibit so I could use them to connect more to the character (OMG, I took that role so SERIOUSLY ... it's kind of funny to think about it now) ... and I haven't been able to handle documentary footage from the Camps since.

I even tried to get an exemption from watching the documentary footage during my US History II unit on WWII the next year, but my history teacher wouldn't go for it. HOWEVER, she did let me assemble an extra-credit presentation to go through the experience I'd had while touring the Holocaust Museum, which actually went over pretty well.

I do pretty well with films, but haven't seen Schindler's List yet. I hear it's pretty brutal.

Since high school, I have been back to the Holocaust Museum to do the "long" exhibit. If you haven't done that one, definitely do it. It's astonishing how the smallest details, media and other "artifacts" (like the children's "art therapy" drawings from Terezinstadt or the shoes collected from another camp that are piled under a poem, written in Yiddish and English, on the wall ... vivid images, family photographs, newsreels ...) that are on display from the period, starting with Hitler's rise in the Nazi party through the liberation of the Camps, defeat of the Nazis and even the establishment of Israel.

Powerful, emotional and very well done. Although you need about 3-5 hours to go through the entire exhibition ... and the rest of the day to "recover." (Afterwards, my friend and I took a walk and then hit the museums on the Mall to clear our heads.

[Westley]

do you like sereal killers to? scary

[TheMojoPin]

Westley, just be yourself. No need to hide.

[El Mudo]

I know what you mean.

My sophomore year of high school, the extra-curricular choral groups I was a member of participated in a choral festival in Washington, DC. One of the spots we toured was the National Holocaust Museum. While we took the "short" tour, it was still emotionally exhausting.

Add to that the fact that I had just been cast in a stage production of I Never Saw Another Butterfly and, as I am not Jewish, purposefully remembered a lot of the details from the exhibit so I could use them to connect more to the character (OMG, I took that role so SERIOUSLY ... it's kind of funny to think about it now) ... and I haven't been able to handle documentary footage from the Camps since.

I even tried to get an exemption from watching the documentary footage during my US History II unit on WWII the next year, but my history teacher wouldn't go for it. HOWEVER, she did let me assemble an extra-credit presentation to go through the experience I'd had while touring the Holocaust Museum, which actually went over pretty well.

I do pretty well with films, but haven't seen Schindler's List yet. I hear it's pretty brutal.

Since high school, I have been back to the Holocaust Museum to do the "long" exhibit. If you haven't done that one, definitely do it. It's astonishing how the smallest details, media and other "artifacts" (like the children's "art therapy" drawings from Terezinstadt or the shoes collected from another camp that are piled under a poem, written in Yiddish and English, on the wall ... vivid images, family photographs, newsreels ...) that are on display from the period, starting with Hitler's rise in the Nazi party through the liberation of the Camps, defeat of the Nazis and even the establishment of Israel.

Powerful, emotional and very well done. Although you need about 3-5 hours to go through the entire exhibition ... and the rest of the day to "recover." (Afterwards, my friend and I took a walk and then hit the museums on the Mall to clear our heads.


I made it through the Museum okay...I went there in 9th grade on a field trip (and btw its darn near IMPOSSIBLE to get tickets to it)

But there was just something about seeing it "live", even in a representation, that I just couldn't stomach. I just didn't have the heart on any level to experience that extreme amount of human suffering in a film.

I feel like I should maybe try to watch it again. I have not attempted to in a good 5-10 years

[Thebazile78]

I made it through the Museum okay...I went there in 9th grade on a field trip (and btw its darn near IMPOSSIBLE to get tickets to it)

But there was just something about seeing it "live", even in a representation, that I just couldn't stomach. I just didn't have the heart on any level to experience that extreme amount of human suffering in a film.

I feel like I should maybe try to watch it again. I have not attempted to in a good 5-10 years

Odd that you say it's hard to get in ... my friend and I just showed up and walked through, no problems. They do try to time groups going through so that there's not a lot of noise or chatter as you're going through the exhibitions, so they'll hold you at the elevators for a little while until they get the OK, but, like I said, we didn't even have to pre-reserve tickets or anything. Just showed up and went through.

[Freakshow]

Westley, just be yourself. No need to hide.

I would say that his poor grasp of grammar would be a good reason to hide.

[El Mudo]

Odd that you say it's hard to get in ... my friend and I just showed up and walked through, no problems. They do try to time groups going through so that there's not a lot of noise or chatter as you're going through the exhibitions, so they'll hold you at the elevators for a little while until they get the OK, but, like I said, we didn't even have to pre-reserve tickets or anything. Just showed up and went through.

This was years ago when it was still fairly new, so maybe things have changed since then...I'm not too sure

[keithy_19]

I took a class called Holocaust and Genocide senior year of high school. We focused much more on the Holocaust rather than other areas of genocide around the world. Honestly, there is to much information in both to cover in one semester.

We watched Schindler's List and at the part where they showed the women/children in the shower I suddenly felt like I was going to be sick. I made it through the movie fine, but that one part really messed with my mind.

I still find it to be one the most interesting historical events ever. Just amazing how many levels are covered by examining it. On a group level(sociology), on a personal level(psychology), and in a purely historical context(anthropology).

[Thebazile78]

This was years ago when it was still fairly new, so maybe things have changed since then...I'm not too sure

Things have definitely changed since then.

I went in high school (1994) and we only had a limited time before we needed to get back to the hotel for a rehearsal ... so we went through the "short" exhibit (a kid's-eye view of the occupation and the implementation of the "Final Solution" ... from the initial invasion to the creation of the ghettos to the transportation to the camps ... to the Camps) and everyone was numb for the rest of the afternoon. The Museum had only been open a year at that time.

I've been there since (in either 2003 or 2004) with my friend and it wasn't hard to get in at all. It'd been open about 10 years at that time.

Now it's been open 15 years. Wonder if they've managed to bar the deniers from the entries and that's why we didn't see any when we went in 2003/04. But friends of mine did see them when we were there in 1994.

[El Mudo]

World War Two is such a depressing topic overall on so many levels, especially when you look at a place like Poland, where 11 million of the 18 million people the Germans killed were either killed in or were from proper. You have the situation in the Katyn Forest, where the Russians executed something like 4,000 Polish Officers (then tried to blame it on the Germans), and you have the situation where the Russians sat on one side of the Vistula and watched the Germans wipe Warsaw off the face of the earth (no city suffered as much as Warsaw did...not even Hiroshima and Nagasaki), and on top of all THAT, when they redrew the borders at Yalta (conveniently for Stalin to the lines drawn up in the Nazi-Soviet Pact) to "compensate" the Poles for the territory the Russians were taking to give them the territory up to the Oder River line, they condemned millions of people to death in East Prussia by proxy.

The more history I read of the war, the more respect I lose for Roosevelt. There's a hindsight thing there sure as far as strategy and war aims (Roosevelt and American Policy was convinced any move the British made against our "great friends the Soviets" in regards to intervention were motivated by imperialism), but the man's administration was FILLED with known Communist Agents ( like Harry Dexter White, who was pretty much running the Treasury and Alger Hiss in the State Department, and Treasury and State were the two biggest factors in determining the Peace).

[FunkyDrummer]

The Shooting of Jews in Ukraine: Holocaust by Bullets

November 24, 2008-February 16, 2009
Museum of Jewish Heritage
36 Battery Place
$10 adults, $7 seniors, $5 students
646-437-4200, mjhnyc.org (http://mjhnyc.org/index.htm)

Between 1941 and 1944, almost 1.5 million Jews were murdered when Nazi Germany invaded the Soviet Union. Most were shot by mobile killing units consisting of German SS, army, police, and local collaborators. This exhibition presents the evidence, both physical and testimonial, gathered by Father Patrick Desbois and his team from Yahad-In Unum. Interviews with Ukrainian bystanders and witnesses, together with photographs, artifacts, and text panels, tell the chilling story of Jewish victims–men, women, and children–who were summarily executed near the places they lived, with their neighbors watching.

The Shooting of Jews in Ukraine: Holocaust By Bullets is created by the Mémorial de la Shoah, Paris and is presented in cooperation with Yahad-In Unum. The exhibition website, produced by the Mémorial de la Shoah, features content and information from the original exhibition on view in Paris in 2007. To be redirected to the site, click here (http://www.memorialdelashoah.org/upload/minisites/ukraine/en/en_index.htm).

Article (http://www.thevillager.com/villger_293/priestuncovers.html)

[El Mudo]

The Shooting of Jews in Ukraine: Holocaust by Bullets

November 24, 2008-February 16, 2009
Museum of Jewish Heritage
36 Battery Place
$10 adults, $7 seniors, $5 students
646-437-4200, mjhnyc.org (http://mjhnyc.org/index.htm)

Between 1941 and 1944, almost 1.5 million Jews were murdered when Nazi Germany invaded the Soviet Union. Most were shot by mobile killing units consisting of German SS, army, police, and local collaborators. This exhibition presents the evidence, both physical and testimonial, gathered by Father Patrick Desbois and his team from Yahad-In Unum. Interviews with Ukrainian bystanders and witnesses, together with photographs, artifacts, and text panels, tell the chilling story of Jewish victims–men, women, and children–who were summarily executed near the places they lived, with their neighbors watching.

The Shooting of Jews in Ukraine: Holocaust By Bullets is created by the Mémorial de la Shoah, Paris and is presented in cooperation with Yahad-In Unum. The exhibition website, produced by the Mémorial de la Shoah, features content and information from the original exhibition on view in Paris in 2007. To be redirected to the site, click here (http://www.memorialdelashoah.org/upload/minisites/ukraine/en/en_index.htm).

Article (http://www.thevillager.com/villger_293/priestuncovers.html)


A lot of that stuff was done by the Ukranians themselves, who committed HORRIBLE crimes in that war against their old enemies the Jews, the Russians, and the Poles (Himmler used Ukranians and Russians to blow up and loot/murder/rob/rape what was left of Warsaw...see The Ochota Massacre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ochota_massacre)).

They had a lot of grudges to bear against the Communists for the atrocities committed against them in the 30s.

[SuperKarateMonkeyDeathFez]

I've maybe reached the breaking point with all the Nazi history I'm seeing here. Between going to the site of the Wannsee Conference yesterday and going to Sachsenhausen camp today on top of the scores of other things I've seen whole here in Germany has just got me kinda hating the Germans right now. I reached a weird moment of pure disgust walking around Wannsee and hearing people speak German, and I don't like that, but I couldn't really help it. It was just like everything hit me at once.

[razorboy]

No cake for Hitler.

http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/warren-county/index.ssf?/base/news-0/122923112231930.xml&coll=3

Not directly related but not deserving of it's own thread.

[~Katja~]

No cake for Hitler.

http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/warren-county/index.ssf?/base/news-0/122923112231930.xml&coll=3

Not directly related but not deserving of it's own thread.

That's just sad... it's right in the P'burg area in NJ... and these kids had no chance in picking their names.... I am sure they will get their names changed as soon as they turn 18.

[razorboy]

That's just sad... it's right in the P'burg area in NJ... and these kids had no chance in picking their names.... I am sure they will get their names changed as soon as they turn 18.

Hopefully, even at their young age, all of the coverage and attention will help guide the kids towards the realization of what awful people their parents are.

[RoseBlood]

I've reached a weird moment of pure disgust walking around Wannsee and hearing people speak German, and I don't like that, but I couldn't really help it. It was just like everything hit me at once.

I don't understand this. :huh:

[SuperKarateMonkeyDeathFez]

I don't understand this. :huh:

It's hard to explain. It was like information overload...I'm seeing all this stuff about anti-Semitism in Germany and all these horrible quotes and testimonies and then I'm hearing people around me speaking German and all I could think of was that that was the same language being used in all this hate and the decisions and orders to kill millions of people, and at that moment just hearing German was too much for me. I had to take a break from German people for the rest of the day.

[RoseBlood]

It's hard to explain. It was like information overload...I'm seeing all this stuff about anti-Semitism in Germany and all these horrible quotes and testimonies and then I'm hearing people around me speaking German and all I could think of was that that was the same language being used in all this hate and the decisions and orders to kill millions of people, and at that moment just hearing German was too much for me. I had to take a break from German people for the rest of the day.

Ok, thank you for clarifying, that's what I thought you meant but I kept thinking you can't hate Germans for speaking German.
What you say does make sense but it probably has to be experienced not explained.

[~Katja~]

I've maybe reached the breaking point with all the Nazi history I'm seeing here. Between going to the site of the Wannsee Conference yesterday and going to Sachsenhausen camp today on top of the scores of other things I've seen whole here in Germany has just got me kinda hating the Germans right now. I reached a weird moment of pure disgust walking around Wannsee and hearing people speak German, and I don't like that, but I couldn't really help it. It was just like everything hit me at once.

Seems like you are concentrating your trip on the Holocaust and Nazi history... you cannot blame the people of today for the history their country was built on.
You should step back and maybe take a few days concentrating on other things the country has to offer.
The things you saw in the past days usually have only been visited by Germans over several years if not their life time.

[RoseBlood]

Well said katja, you can't fault people for the sins of their fathers.

I've never been to Germany but I'd love to go. The people are nice and like to have a good time. I probably wouldn't like the food to much. My cousin married a German girl he met in the Domincan. Most of her family came to the States for the wedding, they were lovely people. I just hope my family wasn't their first experience with Americans as we got so drunk and silly. I'm pretty sure we scared them. :unsure:

[~Katja~]

Ok, thank you for clarifying, that's what I thought you meant but I kept thinking you can't hate Germans for speaking German.
What you say does make sense but it probably has to be experienced not explained.

I felt pretty sick about what the Germans did when I went to YadVashem and other holocaust museums and memorial sites in Israel... personally I never visited a concentration camp in Germany, I drove by many but never visited them, I could not deal with the inhumanity. My sister had to visit one with school, but that was right before the wall came down and we were not forced to do these trips.
I did have a very passionate Ethics teacher and we had one kid in class acting like a neo nazi... he was dressed that way and acting stupid, cause he was the nerdiest geek with no friends, so he chose to befriend a group of neo nazi kids just to no longer be an outsider...
These kids never did any acts against foreigners in town, they were all just hot air and steam... they end up teasing that kid as well and tipped him over inside a port -a- potty... and he was the running joke after that.
Anyway, back to the teacher, she made us sit through documentaries to make sure we knew what the nazis were all about and none of us ever once claimed that the holocaust never happened!

[~Katja~]

Well said katja, you can't fault people for the sins of their fathers.

I've never been to Germany but I'd love to go. The people are nice and like to have a good time. I probably wouldn't like the food to much. My cousin married a German girl he met in the Domincan. Most of her family came to the States for the wedding, they were lovely people. I just hope my family wasn't their first experience with Americans as we got so drunk and silly. I'm pretty sure we scared them. :unsure:

trust me, us Germans get drunk and silly starting at the age of 13... lol
Most Germans actually think of Americans as prude and stuck up people. So if they meet some that know how to have fun then your family did a good deed! They turned another German family into knowing how much fun Americans truly are :D

[CofyCrakCocaine]

I'd say some words on this, but why bother?

And don't worry about offending the Germans with your drinking. They just can hold their alcohol much better. The only German I know of who was a teetotaller was Hitler, so now you know who to worry about.

[CofyCrakCocaine]

Isn't it customary to give your guests gifts in Germany? Or is it the other way round?

[~Katja~]

Isn't it customary to give your guests gifts in Germany? Or is it the other way round?

you bring gifts for your hosts... even if it's flowers or some coffee and cake

[CofyCrakCocaine]

you bring gifts for your hosts... even if it's flowers or some coffee and cake

My family's been visiting German friends in their homes since I was 4 yet somehow this concept escaped me for 20-something years.

[SuperKarateMonkeyDeathFez]

Seems like you are concentrating your trip on the Holocaust and Nazi history... you cannot blame the people of today for the history their country was built on.
You should step back and maybe take a few days concentrating on other things the country has to offer.
The things you saw in the past days usually have only been visited by Germans over several years if not their life time.

Nah, I've been all over the country over the last 3 weeks. The Holocaust stuff is just really heavy, as I expected. I don't hate the Germans...I just needed a break from them that evening. It just go to a point where I didn't want to deal with hearing German when I had spent so much time hearing and reading it pertaining to plans to erradicate millions of people from the Earth. I'm not blaming later generations for what happened...I was just burned out hearing and seeing the language used for hate and I needed a time out. I don't speak it, so all I could hear in my head was what I had been seeing at all the sites and museums, if that makes sense.

I appreciate that the Germans by and large haven't shied away from this part of their past and commend them for all the monuments and museums and exhibits and such that so explicitly lay bare who the Nazis were and what they did and how this is an inescapable part of their past. It's very refreshing, especially since so much of American history is EXTREMELY whitewashed when it comes to putting it on display.

[drusilla]

I see nothing odd about it t all! It effected so many people very deeply and it deserves to be kept alive in memory. Many people think it effected just the jews, but that is not true, so to add variety to your study interest, it might be fascinating to look at that too.

it's so true that many people don't realize that the nazis were going after many others & not just jewish people. my boyfriend's grandfather was in a movie theater in greece when he was 17 around the time the nazis invaded, when a few nazis came in asking to see the papers of all the men in the theater. they went up to his grandfather to check his papers, & since he was only 17 they let him sit back down. they rounded up all the men who were 18 or older, took them out back & executed all of them. it's one of the freakiest stories i ever heard. & we kind of always found it odd that his grandfather never said nazi, but always just called them "the germans."