Gay Marriage

[Hottub]

You know you want me.

http://tnaron.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/take-a-number-bxp51780.jpg

[underdog]

1) Gays are a part of population with no other defining trait than their sexual preference. This makes it hard for some to see them as a group in terms of civil rights. To me they are more akin to an interest group like the NRA..

1) Blacks are a part of population with no other defining trait than their skin color. This makes it hard for some to see them as a group in terms of civil rights. To me they are more akin to an interest group like the NRA.

Seems pretty fucking crazy that way, doesn't it?

I say give them the same rights call it civil union, the argument over semantics is just plain annoying to me though.

IT'S NOT OVER SEMANTICS.

Saying that only straight people can do this and gay people can do that is saying that gay people are not on the same level.

[Serpico1103]

Someone explain to CharlieDontSurf about the history of separate but equal.

I find it so sad when people have no concept of their history.

[epo]

I thought we settled this argument awhile ago.

[Charlie_Don't_Surf]

1) Blacks are a part of population with no other defining trait than their skin color. This makes it hard for some to see them as a group in terms of civil rights. To me they are more akin to an interest group like the NRA.

Seems pretty fucking crazy that way, doesn't it?



IT'S NOT OVER SEMANTICS.

Saying that only straight people can do this and gay people can do that is saying that gay people are not on the same level.

Underdog, no fuccin way can you equate blacks with gays and yes it does seem crazy that way because it doesn't make sense. Blacks come from different places culturally, when you say Black "YOU" are thinking of just the skin colour just like many seem to do. Blacks from the Carribbean are seen as the same as American blacks, simply because of skin colour so as you can see there is a difference between using blacks as a substitute in that example.
Gays come from almost all segments of the population and their only differentiating trait is their abnormal sexuality.

I believe gays are people who are equal to us but to say they are the same as straight people is fuccin ridiculous. I believe women are equal to men but I can tell that there is a major difference between men and women; they are not men! By your second statement, I should be allowed to play in the LPGA or WNBA because saying only women can do this and men can only do that is saying that women are not on the same level.

[Serpico1103]

Underdog, no fuccin way can you equate blacks with gays

You are right. Gays don't lower property values like an earthquake.

[Charlie_Don't_Surf]

You are right. Gays don't lower property values like an earthquake.

Right, and I've never seen a gay man throw a proper punch. lol and attacking with your wrist ain't gonna get the job done.

[underdog]

Underdog, no fuccin way can you equate blacks with gays and yes it does seem crazy that way because it doesn't make sense. Blacks come from different places culturally, when you say Black "YOU" are thinking of just the skin colour just like many seem to do. Blacks from the Carribbean are seen as the same as American blacks, simply because of skin colour so as you can see there is a difference between using blacks as a substitute in that example.
Gays come from almost all segments of the population and their only differentiating trait is their abnormal sexuality.

You just sort of proved my point.

Gays come from different places culturally. EVERY culture or country has gay people.

Black people are born black. Mexican people are born mexican. Gay people are born gay.

And I do not see black people from the Caribbean as the same as other black people. They like reggae way more.

I believe gays are people who are equal to us but to say they are the same as straight people is fuccin ridiculous. I believe women are equal to men but I can tell that there is a major difference between men and women; they are not men! By your second statement, I should be allowed to play in the LPGA or WNBA because saying only women can do this and men can only do that is saying that women are not on the same level.

So, by these definitions, we should separate gays more. We should have a Men's room, a Woman's room, and a Fag's room.

[TheMojoPin]

I believe gays are people who are equal to us but to say they are the same as straight people is fuccin ridiculous. I believe women are equal to men but I can tell that there is a major difference between men and women; they are not men! By your second statement, I should be allowed to play in the LPGA or WNBA because saying only women can do this and men can only do that is saying that women are not on the same level.

So you'd be OK with men and women having different civil rights?

[underdog]

Right, and I've never seen a gay man throw a proper punch. lol and attacking with your wrist ain't gonna get the job done.

You've never been around many gay people then.

Most gay men will kick your fucking ass.

[Serpico1103]

Right, and I've never seen a gay man throw a proper punch. lol and attacking with your wrist ain't gonna get the job done.

But, as you have pointed out, you can't easily identify gays, so it is possible that you have seen a gay man throw a proper punch. It is also possible that you have gotten your ass kicked by a gay man, and didn't know it.

I understand racism is different because you can't go on a job interview and hide your race as a gay man could possibly hide his sexuality. However, the government's role is to maintain a stable society. Allowing gays to enjoy all the rights of others, brings them into the mainstream. Isolating people is never good for society.

[brettmojo]

Isolating people is never good for society.
Unless they have Swine Flu.

[underdog]

Unless they have Swine Flu.

I would like them to travel through the midwest.

[Charlie_Don't_Surf]

You've never been around many gay people then.

Most gay men will kick your fucking ass.

No not me my friend I come from the "hood" and have been an athlete all my life so let's say few gays could kick my ass. And FYI I've been around tons of gays (no not like that :nono:) my campus was one of the most liberal (i mean socially, politically i'm indifferent) places I've ever been and I am pretty much open to most people(I say most because I am sure there will be a time in my life when I have been or will be intolerant without being aware)

But, as you have pointed out, you can't easily identify gays, so it is possible that you have seen a gay man throw a proper punch. It is also possible that you have gotten your ass kicked by a gay man, and didn't know it.

I understand racism is different because you can't go on a job interview and hide your race as a gay man could possibly hide his sexuality. However, the government's role is to maintain a stable society. Allowing gays to enjoy all the rights of others, brings them into the mainstream. Isolating people is never good for society.

That was a joke playing on the stereotype of gay men being "pansies" or physically inferior to their straight counterparts.

[brettmojo]

If they don't stop the mentally retarded from marrying each other then gays shouldn't be denied the right to marry each other either.

[underdog]

DC approves same-sex marriage law (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8034601.stm)

Maine senate passes same-sex marriage bill (http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSTRE5411QU20090502)

[KatPw]

DC approves same-sex marriage law (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8034601.stm)

Maine senate passes same-sex marriage bill (http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSTRE5411QU20090502)

Woot!

[Penelope]

DC approves same-sex marriage law (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8034601.stm)

Maine senate passes same-sex marriage bill (http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSTRE5411QU20090502)

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

[underdog]

It's official : Maine legalizes same-sex marriage (http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/05/06/maine.same.sex.marriage/)

[TjM]

It's official : Maine legalizes same-sex marriage (http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/05/06/maine.same.sex.marriage/)

In all honesty that's not really a win. In some parts of that state I think you can marry a malamute

[underdog]

Ah boo. (http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/maine-gay-marriage-law-repealed/story?id=8992720)

Stupid weird New England.

[Dude!]

Ah boo. (http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/maine-gay-marriage-law-repealed/story?id=8992720)

Stupid weird New England.

it's the most racist part
of the country

[underdog]

it's the most racist part
of the country

It's just strange all around.

[GregoryJoseph]

I don't recall ever being so sick of such a minor issue.

[Serpico1103]

I don't recall ever being so sick of such a minor issue.

I look to Fez for guidance on how to handle the gay rights issue. So, I'll do nothing.

[JohnCharles]

Is this still going on?

[underdog]

I don't recall ever being so sick of such a minor issue.

You should go attack the guy who brought it up on today's show then.

[Dash77]

Let them get married already, if they want joy ad misery why stop them

[WampusCrandle]

it sounds gross. next topic.

[epo]

Look at the churches in Texas....actually fighting for gay marriage.

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[JohnCharles]

It's funny how you confuse Texas with Wisconsin.

[WampusCrandle]

It's funny how you confuse Texas with Wisconsin.

or Buffalo with all of New Jersey.

[GregoryJoseph]

Let gays marry!

Let the blind drive!

Let dwarves and midgets in the NBA!

Enough of this bias!

[brettmojo]

All marriage should be made illegal while men still are running this country. Save us from ourselves.

[IamFogHat]

All marriage should be made illegal while men still are running this country. Save us from ourselves.

Dude that is so funny. Are you Tank in the Morning?

[Misteriosa]

i posted this in the NYS gay marriage rejection thread, but i feel she made such a good argument for gay marriage that i should post it here:

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[spraquowhi]

:king:The issue has ignited a cultural and political debate over what constitutes marriage and the legal rights of gay partners.
“Earlier this week, Georgia announced it will appeal a judge’s ruling that struck down its voter-approved ban on gay marriage. The Georgia constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage was approved by 76 percent of the state’s voters in November 2004. On Tuesday, however, Fulton County Superior Court Judge Constance C. Russell ruled the measure violated the Georgia constitution’s single-subject rules for ballot questions.”
“Marriage in the United States shall consist only of the union of a man and a woman,” reads the measure, which would require approval by two-thirds of Congress and three-fourths of the states.
“Neither this Constitution, nor the constitution of any State, shall be construed to require that marriage or the legal incidents thereof be conferred upon any union other than the union of a man and a woman,” it says.
2006 The Associated Press
I know in California where Gay marriage is supported by the majority, this was a huge topic. This debate seems to be never ending I do not think there will be an end in sight until the government gets out of our homes and back into the office were they can decide on other things besides the union of two people based on sexual preference. Don’t get me wrong, I am not a homosexual, nor do I agree with the practices, but if we allow the government to tell us whom we are and are not allowed to marry, than what else are they going to ban? It was not long ago that birth control was banned and abortions were banned, not that I support abortions, but the government does not belong in my bedroom or my body. The martial union of two people is a union between TWO people not the state, or congress or senate, but TWO people.
************************************************** *********************This debate is not on birth control or abortion. Please post a separate thread for a pro-life/pro-choice debate. This debate is should gay’s allowed to marry and is it unjust for the government to regulate these sort of issues?
************************************************** *********************

[EliSnow]

************************************************** *********************This debate is not on birth control or abortion. Please post a separate thread for a pro-life/pro-choice debate. This debate is should gay’s allowed to marry and is it unjust for the government to regulate these sort of issues?
************************************************** *********************



Say what, now?

[yojimbo7248]

Say what, now?


yeah, that was one of the more confusing posts I have seen in awhile

[SatCam]

Don’t get me wrong, I am not a homosexual, nor do I agree with the practice

thank god

[shodan]

One thing I have never understood about the debate is the fact that religion doesn't come into marriage in the ideas of the law. A State license must be completed and signed.

[EliSnow]

One thing I have never understood about the debate is the fact that religion doesn't come into marriage in the ideas of the law. A State license must be completed and signed.

Your sig is too big. It's 150 pixels high. Please reduce it to 100 pixels.

[Dude!]

Your sig is too big. It's 150 pixels high. Please reduce it to 100 pixels.

oh the power!

[epo]

Argentinians celebrate first same-sex marriage (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/29/gay-weddings-argentina-malawi)

In Argentina, Jose Maria Di Bello and Alex Freyre made history as the first same-sex couple to marry in Latin America.

Here we go again....

[SatCam]

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2009/12/29/1262115804879/First-same-sex-marriage-i-001.jpg

[A.J.]

Argentinians celebrate first same-sex marriage (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/29/gay-weddings-argentina-malawi)

I cry for Argentina.

[disneyspy]

I cry for Argentina.

tears of joy i bet

dont cry for me,argentina

[Ritalin]

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2009/12/29/1262115804879/First-same-sex-marriage-i-001.jpg

that girl on the left looks a lot like a guy.

[sailor]

Worst thing you can call a marriage.

[underdog]

Judge strikes down Prop. 8, allows gay marriage in California (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/sns-calif-gay-marriage-story,0,1787238.story)

[Furtherman]

I love the smell of disgust in the mormons. Smells like, victory.

Judge rules California's ban on same-sex marriage is unconstitutional (http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/08/04/california.same.sex.ruling/index.html?hpt=T1&iref=BN1)

A federal judge in California on Wednesday overturned the state's ban on same-sex marriage, saying the voter-approved rule violated the constitutional rights of gays and lesbians.

The decision, issued by Chief U.S. District Judge Vaughn Walker in San Francisco, is an initial step in what will likely be a lengthy legal fight over California's Proposition 8, which defined marriage as a union between a man and a woman.

[disneyspy]

score one for underdog

[Dudeman]

Here is some info about the judge on wikipedia:

"Walker is one of two federal judges publicly known to be gay.

nomination by President George H. W. Bush to the federal district court. Walker was confirmed by the U.S. Senate on November 21, 1989, on unanimous consent

Walker's original nomination to the bench by Ronald Reagan in 1987

Two dozen House Democrats, led by Rep. Nancy Pelosi of San Francisco, opposed his nomination

Wired magazine describes Walker as having libertarian leanings"

[booster11373]

Conservatives and those opposed to gay marriage will decry this as another activist judge legislating from the bench and overturning the will of the electorate.

I would have like to seen a concerted effort on the gay communities part to get it on the ballot again and have it pass with a broad majority of citizens.

I think this could go bad for gays

[Syd]

Is anyone else ready to get divorced over this? All this buttsex is making my marriage weaker.

[keithy_19]

Good.

[Jujubees2]

Is anyone else ready to get divorced over this? All this buttsex is making my marriage weaker.

Try some KY

[Dudeman]

radio psychic, radio psychic

fez will bring this up on the show tomorrow, ron will take the opposing view, fez won't be able to defend his point, callers will give fez shit

[hanso]

Pappa bear to Mamma griz sound the alarm.

[Furtherman]

Ron will bring up the fact that the gays didn't bring together a concentrated effort for support in the first place, and that is a good point. Not enough doggy-style in their fight.

[PapaBear]

Pappa bear to Mamma griz sound the alarm.

http://www.in-control.org.uk/site/INCO/UploadedResources/boy%20scratch%20head.jpg

[zentraed]

Conservatives and those opposed to gay marriage will decry this as another activist judge legislating from the bench and overturning the will of the electorate.

I would have like to seen a concerted effort on the gay communities part to get it on the ballot again and have it pass with a broad majority of citizens.

I think this could go bad for gays

There was some argument in the community about whether to put it back on the ballot or to go ahead and take it to the courts. Personally, I'm happy to see it finally making its way to the Supreme Court. It doesn't make sense that people can get married in one state, but not another.

[StanUpshaw]

Different states have different laws? My mind is blown!

[zentraed]

Different states have different laws? My mind is blown!

This is a civil rights issue, not simply about states having different laws. What we have now, allowing two people to marry in one state and extending them all of the legal rights and benefits that come along with it, but then completely denying them in another state (DOMA), or not allowing them to marry in the first place is absolutely ridiculous to me.

[booster11373]

Feeling masochistic and stuck in traffic I listened to Hannity and he was crying about un-elected judges and liberal agenda blah blah bla........

[Syd]

Glad he is taking up the anti gay marriage banner too. They all claim not to want government intrusion in their private life or big government in general but the VERY second they can see more profit, they abandon any of those claims in a heartbeat.

[sailor]

Glad he is taking up the anti gay marriage banner too. They all claim not to want government intrusion in their private life or big government in general but the VERY second they can see more profit, they abandon any of those claims in a heartbeat.

I disagree with him on this, but don't see how being opposed to a judge throwing out something the people voted for is anti-big government.

[hanso]

http://www.in-control.org.uk/site/INCO/UploadedResources/boy%20scratch%20head.jpg

Papa bear + Mamma griz = Billo + Palin.

[Syd]

I disagree with him on this, but don't see how being opposed to a judge throwing out something the people voted for is anti-big government.

It's a vote that gives power to the government to determine whether or not someone can be married. It empowers the government to wield a new power and discriminate with it accordingly.

[StanUpshaw]

It's a vote that gives power to the government to determine whether or not someone can be married. It empowers the government to wield a new power and discriminate with it accordingly.

And NOW you have a problem with that?!?

[Serpico1103]

Can I marry a moose yet? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope)

[spoon]

quite simply, there are times when the people as a whole are wrong

if we let the south vote on slavery, what were the chances it would have been abolished?

hell, that vote would probably have failed in the fucking late 50's early 60's in certain parts of the country

[spoon]

Can I marry a moose yet? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope)

this close

http://cache4.asset-cache.net/xc/52241811.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=77BFBA49EF878921F7C3FC3F69D929FD57B2D262585E7874 FE08CF3EE61C51DAC0E646C147564C1AF06BF04B24B4128C

[spoon]

http://blog.pennlive.com/pennsyltucky/2008/02/santorum22108.jpg

[sailor]

It's a vote that gives power to the government to determine whether or not someone can be married. It empowers the government to wield a new power and discriminate with it accordingly.

But the other side can just as easily say it was never allowed so by allowing it the government is taking he power to decide who can get married or not. Either way the government is making the final decision.

[StanUpshaw]

Can I marry a moose yet? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope)

You kid (probably), but it's impossible to reconcile the logic of supporting gay marriage while condemning incestuous or polygamous marriage.

[sailor]

You kid (probably), but it's impossible to reconcile the logic of supporting gay marriage while condemning incestuous or polygamous marriage.


I've heard that while the LDS opposes gay marriage, more fundamentalist (if that's the right term) Mormons support it for that very reasoning. Makes sense.

[epo]

http://blog.pennlive.com/pennsyltucky/2008/02/santorum22108.jpg

You kid (probably), but it's impossible to reconcile the logic of supporting gay marriage while condemning incestuous or polygamous marriage.

You just made Spoon's point for him.

:clap:

[El Mudo]

I'm all for gay people getting married....hell, my in laws are gay and just got married last year in Massachusetts.

But on the other hand, there's a part of me that feels it's kinda messed up for the court to invalidate the views of the seven million people of the State of California that voted legally to pass the measure on the ballot. I may not like it, but it's still their right to choose what they have to live under no?

People keep bringing up Civil Rights and Brown, which did end "separate but equal", but the Federal Government still had to go in there and enforce the law. I mean, Ike had to federalize the Arkansas Guard in 1957 so those kids could go to Little Rock Central, and shit still wasn't really settled until Congress passed things like the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act in 64 and 65 and throughout the rest of the sixties, and we're still feeling the scars of that almost 50 years later.

People already hate the Federal Government....does it still have the backbone or the will to enforce something like this on the states, especially something as arbitrary as marriage?

I just don't think this whole issue is as black and white as some are making it out to be. It's a really, really complex thing.

[StanUpshaw]

You just made Spoon's point for him.

:clap:

If spoon had a point, it would be his first.

Afraid he's still batting .000 though, since the association fallacy doesn't really cut it.

[StanUpshaw]

But on the other hand, there's a part of me that feels it's kinda messed up for the court to invalidate the views of the seven million people of the State of California that voted legally to pass the measure on the ballot. I may not like it, but it's still their right to choose what they have to live under no?

No. Not as long as they're governed by a constitution. This is the way it works. The majority votes for oppression of a minority, and the courts are there to strike it down if it violates the constitution.

[Syd]

People already hate the Federal Government....does it still have the backbone or the will to enforce something like this on the states, especially something as arbitrary as marriage?.

Those were different times with different people. We're a far cry from the Kent State protesters or Faubus and his Natl Guard troops. Whether you agree with their reasons or what they stood for you can't deny their resolve. People think protesting now is showing up and sitting around on lawn chairs with signs at some park. They don't have the backbone to stand up for what they believe in. They just want to show up and feel like they're a part of something.

This will pass in time and people will have to find a new way to make money off of telling people what is destroying the nation. Maybe we can pool our money and bet on what will be attributed to the decline of society next?

[Syd]

But the other side can just as easily say it was never allowed so by allowing it the government is taking he power to decide who can get married or not. Either way the government is making the final decision.

Prop 8 wasn't the start, the DOMA was the start. That was when it became a part of the federal government to be intimately involved with the private life of citizens.

[underdog]

You kid (probably), but it's impossible to reconcile the logic of supporting gay marriage while condemning incestuous or polygamous marriage.

I'm ok with people fucking whomever the hell they want, as long as they are of whatever age the population deems acceptable. The main reason incestuous marriage frightens people is the children part.

[sailor]

I'm ok with people fucking whomever the hell they want, as long as they are of whatever age the population deems acceptable. The main reason incestuous marriage frightens people is the children part.

there was this boy who had two children with his sisters. they were his daughters. they were his favorite lovers

[sailor]

Prop 8 wasn't the start, the DOMA was the start. That was when it became a part of the federal government to be intimately involved with the private life of citizens.

yeah, but this was also supposedly because certain states were on the verge of allowing gay marriages (thanks wikipedia!). it's all sort of chicken and egg type shit.

[Syd]

yeah, but this was also supposedly because certain states were on the verge of allowing gay marriages (thanks wikipedia!). it's all sort of chicken and egg type shit.

still, conservatives pulled the trigger and had the federal government become involved

[JerseySean]

There was some argument in the community about whether to put it back on the ballot or to go ahead and take it to the courts. Personally, I'm happy to see it finally making its way to the Supreme Court. It doesn't make sense that people can get married in one state, but not another.

This Supreme Court will never overrule a state referendum which was voted on by the citizens of the state. Moreover, there is no real legal argument that you can make which says that certain folks are persecuted or treate unequally.

Straight man can marry any woman, not any man.

Gay man can marry any woman, not any man. Even though he may want to, state law says he cant. Besides, the whole argument that one state should follow the same principles as another on marriage is ridiculous.

If, in Utah, they rules polygamists to be legal, does every state now have to legalize polygamy?

That being said, I really dont give a shit bt we should be more careful about how we change a societal institution dating back thousands of years.

[El Mudo]

No. Not as long as they're governed by a constitution. This is the way it works. The majority votes for oppression of a minority, and the courts are there to strike it down if it violates the constitution.

But what are they "oppressing"? Prop 8 just "defines marriage as between one man and one woman". There isn't an inherent "right" to be married (at least not yet).

Those were different times with different people. We're a far cry from the Kent State protesters or Faubus and his Natl Guard troops. Whether you agree with their reasons or what they stood for you can't deny their resolve. People think protesting now is showing up and sitting around on lawn chairs with signs at some park. They don't have the backbone to stand up for what they believe in. They just want to show up and feel like they're a part of something.

This will pass in time and people will have to find a new way to make money off of telling people what is destroying the nation. Maybe we can pool our money and bet on what will be attributed to the decline of society next?

I'm just not sure we're all that "different". We are more wired and tuned in to what's going on, and (in certain ways) more intelligent, but the fact that we're still having this debate shows we're still not that different from those times. The Government (and Governments) have been trying to legislate morality since pretty much forever, and I just don't see that ever changing without some sort of systemic upheaval.

When I look back through history in this country, I see laws or policies that have to be "forced" on citizenry that doesn't want said laws having to be backed up by lawmakers at bayonet point. It happened in South Carolina in 1832, and again in 1861, and in the Civil Rights Era and even through Vietnam. My great (and somewhat irrational) fear is that between this, and when Arizona's draconian, borderline fascistic Immigration Laws get challenged and overturned by the Courts, there is going to be a lot of anger and bottled up frustration among an electorate that is increasingly becoming more and more hostile to anything it sees as "government intrusion".

[A.J.]

But on the other hand, there's a part of me that feels it's kinda messed up for the court to invalidate the views of the seven million people of the State of California that voted legally to pass the measure on the ballot. I may not like it, but it's still their right to choose what they have to live under no?

The problem is that California keeps passing all this referenda for a variety of issues. The "will of the people" should come from their elected officials in the State Assembly.

No wonder that state is so fucked up.

[El Mudo]

The problem is that California keeps passing all this referenda for a variety of issues. The "will of the people" should come from their elected officials in the State Assembly.

No wonder that state is so fucked up.

Exactly.

[Syd]

The problem is that California keeps passing all this referenda for a variety of issues. The "will of the people" should come from their elected officials in the State Assembly.

No wonder that state is so fucked up.

Exactly. Democracy is bad, as proven time and time again. It comes down to the adage of two wolves and one sheep deciding what is for dinner.

[Willmore]

Judges not being elected is complete and utter bullshit.

Federal judges are FEDERAL, so for one to be elected, the entire nation would have to vote. And in a sense, it does. Federal judges are nominated by the president and confirmed by the senate. That's 2 times your vote decides who is placed on the bench.

[Willmore]

Exactly. Democracy is bad, as proven time and time again. It comes down to the adage of two wolves and one sheep deciding what is for dinner.

Democracy is bullshit. Plato's Republic is a deeply flawed idea of governance, and it has morphed and evolved to a point where it's somewhat manageable, but it retains the flaws of the past.

[booster11373]

Judges not being elected is complete and utter bullshit.

Federal judges are FEDERAL, so for one to be elected, the entire nation would have to vote. And in a sense, it does. Federal judges are nominated by the president and confirmed by the senate. That's 2 times your vote decides who is placed on the bench.

Ah you see, you thought about it for a second. Its easier for the Hannity types to just sweep over that bit and cry un-elected judges and liberal agenda

[torker]

http://www.365gay.com/wp-content/uploads/license-proposal.jpg
?

[epo]

That being said, I really dont give a shit bt we should be more careful about how we change a societal institution dating back thousands of years.

Wasn't slavery a societal institution dating back thousands of years?

Sometimes old rules are stupid and need to be changed. This is one of those cases.

[disneyspy]

via a tweet from mooche

http://love.marriagemattersoregon.org/action/love-commitment-marriage/

[Dude!]

via a tweet from mooche

http://love.marriagemattersoregon.org/action/love-commitment-marriage/

when are you and your
fuck-buddy michael moore
gonna tie the knot?

[disneyspy]

when are you and your
fuck-buddy michael moore
gonna tie the knot?

he says he won't marry me til you quit sucking my dick

so never

[hush]

Wasn't slavery a societal institution dating back thousands of years?


I strongly believe that gay marriage should be legal. Reflecting on the fact that it's not legal, bothers me very much. But please, avoid the "guilt" factor of any slavery comparisons. It's a soft, devoid tactic. I understand that your premise was more about the proposed flexibility of country rule, do to the fact that things become out dated. But passively, there was a guilty driven motive.

Let's use logic...

Let's use reason...

Let's use basic human emotion...

But let's not resort to guilt trips.

[jonyrotn]

What do you give for a wedding present, A Shake weight?

[underdog]

Gay Marriage approved by NY Senate (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/25/nyregion/gay-marriage-approved-by-new-york-senate.html)

[spoon]

After of course they covered the important issues of our day by selecting sweet corn as the official state veg!

Thank you NY Senate for tackling the key issues first. Fuck you oinons! Maui has the best anyway!

[PapaBear]

After of course they covered the important issues of our day by selecting sweet corn as the official state veg!

Thank you NY Senate for tackling the key issues first. Fuck you oinons! Maui has the best anyway!
Corn is a grain.

[keithy_19]

Corn is a grain.

And anal sex is a pain.

[spoon]

shitty merge here...ha!

[PapaBear]

shitty merge here...ha!
https://www.victorytailgate.com/images/cornhole/cornhole-1297460196.jpg

[StanUpshaw]

Corn is a grain.

Sweet corn isn't a grain in any but the most pedantic, assholish interpretations of the term.

[Snacks]

I thought NJ was about to pass this as well, whatever happened to that?

Congrats on NY finally doing the right thing. I never understood why anyone cares if 2 people want to get married. There is no such thing as a sanctity of marriage if there were then 50% plus of marriages wouldnt even in divorce.

[sailor]

Corn is a grain.

Sweet corn isn't a grain in any but the most pedantic, assholish interpretations of the term.

Maize kernels are technically a fruit but are used in cooking as a vegetable or starch. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maize)

Sweet corn is harvested earlier and eaten as a vegetable rather than a grain.

[A.J.]

I guess we know what Monday's Ichiban will be.

If only Fez were around to talk about it.....

[Furtherman]

Welcome to the 21st Century NY!

[styckx]

New York isn't a burning pile yet? wtf???? I read Free Republic last night a bunch of bigot "conservatives" say that god would burn NY for this. Even showing pics of 9/11 as an example of what happens when you question gods way.

I'm shocked.. SHOCKED nothing happened execpt gay people having the same rights as straights.

[JimBeam]

I guess I really don't care about this as I'm a CT resident and honestly don't care even if I don't believe in gay marriage.

I will applaud anytime a state's right's innitiative is passed. Let the voters, or representatives of those voters, of that state decide what's best for it.

I should know this but what if any recourse do the voters of NY have to fight something that their legislature passes ?

Is it simply they have to vote in new reps and try and have it undone or is there a way for them to force a referendum ?

Not sure how it played out in CA. I know the voters turned it down but how come it was never attempted or passed by their legislature ( unless it was and overturned ) ?

And all this talk that now the nation will follow NY is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Most of the country hates NY and doesn't care how they live their lives. They don't look up to it as some way of running their own states.

[Radioguy]

Weren't the holdout Reps looking for Dem concessions on whether religious organizations had to recognize gay marriages or not? Did they get them?

I personally support equal rights for gay people to have the same legal recognition and benefits for their unions as do straight people, but I believe it's wrong to force a church or other religious institution to recognize an employee's same-sex spouse, and having to offer spousal benefits to them. Not that I agree with that stance myself, but whether I do or not is moot. They believe it's wrong, and they have that right. Needless to say, they can never be forced to perform those marriages, but I know making them recognize them was on the table, and I wonder how that came out.

If they didn't get it, then that's one hell of a precedent that was set.

[styckx]

That got in. They are protected.

Watch this. I have no clue what this guy has done on other issues, but right here is the standard that polititians should be held at. Awesome little speech he made.

http://www.youtube.com/user/NYSenate#p/u/8/zEfN26t5yk8

[JimBeam]

I agree I like that he made a decision and stuck with it but something tells me his reelction is not gonna happen.

Same goes with the other Republican that voted for the bill.

My guess is they're both back to their civilian jobs after the next election.

Anybody running for their seat, especially other Republicans, will use this against him no matter what else he's managed to pass.

So goes politics.

[Radioguy]

Knowing Bill Donohue as we do, there's no way he can show his face without making it his mission to unseat this guy.

[JimBeam]

Is that the Catholic League guy ?

[Furtherman]

My condolences to you conservatives who have to deal with human rights progression this weekend. The shock must be unbearable, but you might want to sit down, for I have news about the shape of the Earth too...

[StanUpshaw]

As a resident of Iowa, I fully support other states taking up their share of the gay wedding tourism.

Ever since '09, around the month of June, the entire I-80 corridor from Iowa City to Des Moines absolutely reeks of cum.

[sailor]

My condolences to you conservatives who have to deal with human rights progression this weekend. The shock must be unbearable, but you might want to sit down, for I have news about the shape of the Earth too...

Can't we all just get along?

[disneyspy]

Can't we all just get along?

oh why dont you go vacation in iowa

[sailor]

oh why dont you go vacation in iowa

It smells like dr joek's beach house.

[disneyspy]

*shudder*

[Furtherman]

Can't we all just get along?

As long as they keep passing laws that will benefit the people, yes, it's possible!

[styckx]

As long as they keep passing laws that will benefit the people, yes, it's possible!

With people like this around, I doubt "all" will get along, but there will definitely be a lot more retards to laugh at. :smoke:

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g37/styckx/More%20junk/holycrap.jpg

[StanUpshaw]

As long as they keep passing laws that will benefit the people, yes, it's possible!

What about single people? Why should they be left out?

[sailor]

As long as they keep passing laws that will benefit the people, yes, it's possible!

I just mean both sides name-calling just because someone has a different opinion than you.

Btw, don't have any numbers to back this up, but I can totally see this being more of an age issue than a conservative-liberal issue (with regular folk, not politicians). Like, I can't see my liberal 88 year old grandmother being in favor of this, while my conservative 20-something relatives mostly do support it.

[spoon]

I just mean both sides name-calling just because someone has a different opinion than you.

I agree with you and still call ya names like shitball and gingersnap. I still love you drjoek breath.

[sailor]

I agree with you and still call ya names like shitball and gingersnap. I still love you drjoek breath.

Fag.

[spoon]

Fag.

Says the guy who brushes with joek/ADA approved toothe"paste".

Don't make me ass rape your grandmother. Tell her, no implore her, to change her 88 year old neurons!

[hanso]

Ah jeez, there goes the gayborhood.

[epo]

I just mean both sides name-calling just because someone has a different opinion than you.

Btw, don't have any numbers to back this up, but I can totally see this being more of an age issue than a conservative-liberal issue (with regular folk, not politicians). Like, I can't see my liberal 88 year old grandmother being in favor of this, while my conservative 20-something relatives mostly do support it.

There are numbers about the generational nature of the whole gay marriage issue, but I'm far too lazy to find them.

But your premise is generally correct.

[Furtherman]

I just mean both sides name-calling just because someone has a different opinion than you.

Btw, don't have any numbers to back this up, but I can totally see this being more of an age issue than a conservative-liberal issue (with regular folk, not politicians). Like, I can't see my liberal 88 year old grandmother being in favor of this, while my conservative 20-something relatives mostly do support it.


I didn't call anyone names. Just pointed out there are more modern ways of thinking.

[Furtherman]

Pat Robertson’s Predictably Insane Response to Gay Marriage in NY (http://gawker.com/5815960/pat-robertsons-predictably-insane-response-to-gay-marriage-in-ny)

As usual, fantasy stories involving magical powers written by stupid people thousands of years ago serve as the literal historical foundation for Robertson's argument

I can't believe people still send this asshole money every week.

[spoon]

I want to put a bag of flaming poop on his front porch.


"He called the shit poop!"

:lol:



<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/9uWjt2y_G0Q" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[A.J.]

Pat Robertson’s Predictably Insane Response to Gay Marriage in NY (http://gawker.com/5815960/pat-robertsons-predictably-insane-response-to-gay-marriage-in-ny)



I can't believe people still send this asshole money every week.

If God is infallible and almighty as Robertson and his ilk believe, then why would He create people who are prone to "bad behavior"? How could He fuck up like that?

Exactly.

[Justice4all]

In the Catholic church "marriage" is a sacrament. As important as any other major step in your life...and always between a man and a woman.
Civil unions are OK because you don't say "marriage".

Civil unions are ok because it doesn't involve a religious ceremony.

I think most of the close minded people are up in arms because of the religious implications.

[Justice4all]

If God is infallible and almighty as Robertson and his ilk believe, then why would He create people who are prone to "bad behavior"? How could He fuck up like that?

Exactly.

In my belief God IS infallible, but he gave us all free will and the right to choose for ourselves. He lets us do what we do down here and we settle up when we die and go to heaven (or hell)
People are flawed. God is not.

[Furtherman]

People choose to be gay?

[RoseBlood]

In my belief God IS infallible, but he gave us all free will and the right to choose for ourselves. He lets us do what we do down here and we settle up when we die and go to heaven (or hell)
People are flawed. God is not.

If God gave us free will then I am surprised so many people choose to align with a belief system that has already been constructed for them rather than discovering their own.

But I digress, people do not choose to be gay, just like you do not choose what color eyes you are born with.

[Gutter]

thought this sign was pretty funny.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_oqnzCQC66aY/SyvUYiTRugI/AAAAAAAABLk/4NIPtSYFnhI/s400/gay+marriageFunnyBabySign.jpg

[CountryBob]

What about people who are Bi? Love the cunt and love the cock? Where do they fit in the born gay or not born gay. That is the question :surrender:

[Furtherman]

What about people who are Bi? Love the cunt and love the cock? Where do they fit in the born gay or not born gay. That is the question :surrender:

They don't have to fit in anywhere. People can be equally attracted to both sexes. Maybe one more than the other. I've only known girls who have gone both ways, and they seemed comfortable with it... like it was no big deal... just as normal as I'm attracted to women.

[CountryBob]

They don't have to fit in anywhere. People can be equally attracted to both sexes. Maybe one more than the other. I've only known girls who have gone both ways, and they seemed comfortable with it... like it was no big deal... just as normal as I'm attracted to women.

Yeah - I also think that some just go the other way for pleasure - not by a genetic calling.
Just wanted to add to the conversation about gays are all born that way....

[Furtherman]

Yeah - I also think that some just go the other way for pleasure - not by a genetic calling.

No doubt, I'm sure some do.

[sailor]

Some girls do it to be popular. It works.

[keithy_19]

Some girls do it to be popular. It works.

Every guy who I knew who was bi (not a lot mind you) turned out to be gay. It was like they used bi as a term to bridge the gap and ease into it. Then again, they might have been trying to postpone their announcement because of the social stigma that comes with it.

[spoon]

People choose to be gay?

Dspy chooses whatever will touch him.

[disneyspy]

Dspy chooses whatever will touch him.

down there

[spoon]

That's a funky sad smelly grey place! Like the crotch off a old dead possum with chlamydia and diarrhea.

[disneyspy]

sweetest poster ,MY ASS!

[spoon]

sweetest poster ,MY ASS!

:innocent:

I mean it all in the "good" way of course.

[spoon]

That's a funky sad smelly grey place! Like the crotch off a old dead possum with chlamydia and diarrhea.

Or perhaps you'll like this better...

That's a funky sad smelly grey place! Like the crotch off a old dead possum with chlamydia, diarrhea and new car smell.

[CountryBob]

Or perhaps you'll like this better...

That's a funky sad smelly grey place! Like the crotch off a old dead possum with chlamydia, diarrhea and new car smell.

Haha !!

[disneyspy]

what are you laughing at? thats only funny if you like being spoonfed shit

[spoon]

Haha !!

what are you laughing at? thats only funny if you like being spoonfed shit

Don't let the new Hottub (now with more gray/gay) influence you CB!

Laugh away buddy! He can't hear it anyway.

[underdog]

Yeah - I also think that some just go the other way for pleasure - not by a genetic calling.
Just wanted to add to the conversation about gays are all born that way....

So you're saying you could just suck a cock whenever you want?

[StanUpshaw]

People become dumb as fucking rocks when it comes to sexuality.

There is no gay/straight dichotomy -- sexuality is a continuum. And there is no singular factor that determines it. Genetics plays a part; the environment in utero; your upbringing; societal norms; psychological trauma; hormonal fluctuations.......crack a fucking book you buncha faggots.

[Justice4all]

If God gave us free will then I am surprised so many people choose to align with a belief system that has already been constructed for them rather than discovering their own.

But I digress, people do not choose to be gay, just like you do not choose what color eyes you are born with.

Now I disagree with that. I think being gay is a choice, not something genetic.

[Furtherman]

You don't know any gay people, do you? A choice? Ever see a gay male kid? You think they're choosing to act girly?

[CountryBob]

So you're saying you could just suck a cock whenever you want?

Yes - You can!

[CountryBob]

You don't know any gay people, do you? A choice? Ever see a gay male kid? You think they're choosing to act girly?

I have a gay cousin and we knew he was gay when we were little kids. He always acted girly. He was the fastest runner but would never play football with us - only stay in his room and dance to records. I especially remember him creating a routine to the theme song of the TV show "Alice" He had it on a record. It took him until 30 to finally come out and when he announced it to the family - no one was shocked. For him -it was genetic all along...

[A.J.]

You don't know any gay people, do you? A choice? Ever see a gay male kid? You think they're choosing to act girly?

Only if they're doing a character for a radio show.

[underdog]

Now I disagree with that. I think being gay is a choice, not something genetic.

Anyone who thinks it's a choice has a secret.

[CountryBob]

Funny the double standard for me - if I know a girl that has eaten pussy before but is fucking me now I dont think of her as ever being gay. Just that she got off having sex with a woman.

But, if I ever hear that a guy has fucked a dude but is fucking a chick now he is labled gay even if he only did it once.

Strange way that I think but I feel that I share this opinion with a lot of guys.

[RoseBlood]

People become dumb as fucking rocks when it comes to sexuality.

There is no gay/straight dichotomy -- sexuality is a continuum. And there is no singular factor that determines it. Genetics plays a part; the environment in utero; your upbringing; societal norms; psychological trauma; hormonal fluctuations.......crack a fucking book you buncha faggots.

Yes, the ole nature-nurture debate. While I agree biology and environment determines how we behave, I still believe at its root, homosexuality is genetic.

Now I disagree with that. I think being gay is a choice, not something genetic.

If a homosexual never comes out of the closet, you're saying he's not gay?

[spoon]

Oh Justice. Homosexuality isn't a choice, but getting chlamydia is! :innocent:

:wallbash:

[StanUpshaw]

Yes, the ole nature-nurture debate. While I agree biology and environment determines how we behave, I still believe at its root, homosexuality is genetic.

Much like Justice, your beliefs are wrong and dumb. Read the science. Specifically twin studies.

[Furtherman]

Yes, the ole nature-nurture debate. While I agree biology and environment determines how we behave, I still believe at its root, homosexuality is genetic.



If a homosexual never comes out of the closet, you're saying he's not gay?

Much like Justice, your beliefs are wrong and dumb. Read the science. Specifically twin studies.

Ahhh sure, just google "twin studies", easy enough. She agreed with your assessment of genetics... and your problem is?

How about making it easy for us dummies to see your point with a link or two.

[StanUpshaw]

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=homosexuality+twin+studies

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?term=homosexuality%20twin%20studies

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation

A recent study of all adult twins in Sweden (more than 7,600 twins) found that same-sex behavior was explained by both heritable factors and individual-specific environmental sources (such as prenatal environment, experience with illness and trauma, as well as peer groups, and sexual experiences), while influences of shared-environment variables such as familial environment and societal attitudes had a weaker, but significant effect. Women showed a statistically non-significant trend to weaker influence of hereditary effects, while men showed no effect of shared environmental effects. The use of all adult twins in Sweden was designed to address the criticism of volunteer studies, in which a potential bias towards participation by gay twin may influence the results (see below).

Overall, the environment shared by twins (including familial and societal attitudes) explained 0–17% of the choice of sexual partner, genetic factors 18–39% and the unique environment 61–66%. The individual's unique environment includes, for example, circumstances during pregnancy and childbirth, physical and psychological trauma (e.g., accidents, violence, and disease), peer groups, and sexual experiences. [...] In men, genetic effects explained .34–.39 of the variance, the shared environment .00, and the individual-specific environment .61–.66 of the variance. Corresponding estimates among women were .18–.19 for genetic factors, .16–.17 for shared environmental, and .64–.66 for unique environmental factors.

[Snacks]

Being gay isnt a choice. What is a choice is what you like. You may choose to date thin girls and others may choose to date fat ones. Thats a choice not being gay or straight.

God has nothing to do with this discussion.

[Furtherman]

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=homosexuality+twin+studies

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?term=homosexuality%20twin%20studies

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation

Thank you.

[StanUpshaw]

Here's the Swedish twin study, hosted at Bennington College!

http://faculty.bennington.edu/~sherman/sex/samesex%202010.pdf

[sailor]

Did that study say 70+ percent of those surveyed had a same-sex experience?

[hanso]

Now I disagree with that. I think being gay is a choice, not something genetic.

Is the choice bottom or top?

[RoseBlood]

Much like Justice, your beliefs are wrong and dumb. Read the science. Specifically twin studies.

My beliefs may be uninformed but they are not dumb. I didn't say homosexuality is clearly 100% genetic, but I still stand by my theory that it is ruled mainly by biological factors.

The study concludes that 61-66% of the individuals unique environment played a role in their sexual orientation, but it doesn't specify what percentage of that 61-66 is a result of prenatal environment which would fall under biological factors imo.

Regardless, my point remains that homosexuality is determined mostly by factors out of a persons control.

[StanUpshaw]

Did that study say 70+ percent of those surveyed had a same-sex experience?

It reports: "Fewer men (407/7,231; 5.6%) than women (835/10,676; 7.8%) reported any lifetime same-sex sexual partner"

[sailor]

It reports: "Fewer men (407/7,231; 5.6%) than women (835/10,676; 7.8%) reported any lifetime same-sex sexual partner"

this line is confusing:

Responses for lifetime number of same-sex individuals were
obtained from 7,231 men (64.4% of survey respondents) and
10,676 women (75.7%).

are they saying that many of the respondents answered that question?

[TripleSkeet]

Now I disagree with that. I think being gay is a choice, not something genetic.

You know whats amazing, every kid I knew growing up, including my brother, that I thought was gay, made that exact choice later down the road. I wish I was able to pick lottery numbers out so easily.

[StanUpshaw]

this line is confusing:

Responses for lifetime number of same-sex individuals were
obtained from 7,231 men (64.4% of survey respondents) and
10,676 women (75.7%).

are they saying that many of the respondents answered that question?

The STAGE survey covered a wide range of topics.

It was offered to all Swedish twins born 1959–1985 (21,481 men and 21,607 women).

Only 11,229 men and 14,096 women responded.

Of the respondents, only 7,231 men and 10,676 women answered the question about same-sex partners.

Of the people who answered about same-sex partners, only 407 men and 835 women had a non-zero answer.

[sailor]

The STAGE survey covered a wide range of topics.

It was offered to all Swedish twins born 1959–1985 (21,481 men and 21,607 women).

Only 11,229 men and 14,096 women responded.

Of the respondents, only 7,231 men and 10,676 women answered the question about same-sex partners.

Of the people who answered about same-sex partners, only 407 men and 835 women had a non-zero answer.

thanks. was that so hard for them to say?

[Justice4all]

Yes, the ole nature-nurture debate. While I agree biology and environment determines how we behave, I still believe at its root, homosexuality is genetic.



If a homosexual never comes out of the closet, you're saying he's not gay?

Where in the hell did I say that? if he/she CHOOSES not to come out, that's his/her decision. I do not believe people are born gay. I am sure with all the scientists in this world they can find the gene that makes you gay. It is something they learn about themselves somewhere down the line.
It's like racism. It's a choice. People are not born racist. It's something they decide to do.

[Justice4all]

Much like Justice, your beliefs are wrong and dumb. Read the science. Specifically twin studies.

Sure it is Doctor Stan.
You're article did little to prove me wrong.

[Justice4all]

Is the choice bottom or top?

more like pitch or catch.

[RoseBlood]

Where in the hell did I say that?

It was a question, not a statement.

if he/she CHOOSES not to come out, that's his/her decision. I do not believe people are born gay. I am sure with all the scientists in this world they can find the gene that makes you gay. It is something they learn about themselves somewhere down the line.
It's like racism. It's a choice. People are not born racist. It's something they decide to do.

I believe sexual orientation is determined by about age 5, keeping that theory in mind, you're saying a young child chooses to be gay before they even know what it is?

Was being straight ever a choice for you?

[TjM]

:lol:

http://www.cracked.com/blog/3-things-gay-people-are-going-to-hate-about-gay-marriage/

[StanUpshaw]

Where in the hell did I say that? if he/she CHOOSES not to come out, that's his/her decision. I do not believe people are born gay. I am sure with all the scientists in this world they can find the gene that makes you gay. It is something they learn about themselves somewhere down the line.
It's like racism. It's a choice. People are not born racist. It's something they decide to do.

I believe sexual orientation is determined by about age 5, keeping that theory in mind, you're saying a young child chooses to be gay before they even know what it is?

Was being straight ever a choice for you?

You two are quite the pair!

[Furtherman]

Where in the hell did I say that? if he/she CHOOSES not to come out, that's his/her decision. I do not believe people are born gay. I am sure with all the scientists in this world they can find the gene that makes you gay. It is something they learn about themselves somewhere down the line.
It's like racism. It's a choice. People are not born racist. It's something they decide to do.

They're working on that... and when they do, that statement of "It's a choice" will look even more wrong than it already is.

I believe sexual orientation is determined by about age 5, keeping that theory in mind, you're saying a young child chooses to be gay before they even know what it is?

Was being straight ever a choice for you?

Oh snap.

[Crispy123]

Where in the hell did I say that? if he/she CHOOSES not to come out, that's his/her decision. I do not believe people are born gay. I am sure with all the scientists in this world they can find the gene that makes you gay. It is something they learn about themselves somewhere down the line.
It's like racism. It's a choice. People are not born racist. It's something they decide to do.

How do you know people aren't born rascist? And your brain and body aren't done developing when you are born BTW.

Babies Recognize Faces Better Than Adults, Study Says
(http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/03/0321_050321_babies.html)

[CountryBob]

Being gay isnt a choice. What is a choice is what you like. You may choose to date thin girls and others may choose to date fat ones. Thats a choice not being gay or straight.

God has nothing to do with this discussion.

I like thin girls - really fat ones disgust me.

[CountryBob]

I believe sexual orientation is determined by about age 5, keeping that theory in mind, you're saying a young child chooses to be gay before they even know what it is?

Was being straight ever a choice for you?


Excellent point - when I was 4 yrs old I played with trucks and footballs and GI Joe - i turned out straight but my cousin played with barbie's and danced and liked unicorns - he tured out gay.

Not saying that this is the norm - but I witnessed this behavior so in this case I say that he was somewhat genetically disposed to have gay tendencies.

[TripleSkeet]

Where in the hell did I say that? if he/she CHOOSES not to come out, that's his/her decision. I do not believe people are born gay. I am sure with all the scientists in this world they can find the gene that makes you gay. It is something they learn about themselves somewhere down the line.
It's like racism. It's a choice. People are not born racist. It's something they decide to do.

Youre insane. Its been said here 1000 fucking times already people have been able to pick out gay children all the time. This is before they even know what sex or sexual attraction is. You cant choose what you are sexually attracted to. That comes from nature. Again if it were a choice how is it that all these kids people know are gay by like the age of 8 all CHOOSE to become gay when they are adults?

[spoon]

Multiple factors people, MULTIPLE FACTORS. It's not one thing or the other. Just as our personalities aren't completely genetic, but are influenced by it and more. Live and let live. I never understand the judgmental religious crowd on this either as you aren't supposed to judge if you're a true believer regardless.

Now back to banging my head on a wall in a display of what it's like talking to Justice!

:innocent:

[StanUpshaw]

For what it's worth, you can't really choose your religiosity either.

[spoon]

Not true, I chose to watch it.

[cougarjake13]

For what it's worth, you can't really choose your religiosity either.

yes u can


you may be brought up in one religion but as you enter into adulthood you can choose to continue to believe in whatever your parents did and made you go to as well or decide that another religion fits u better


or none at all

[cougarjake13]

Here's the Swedish twin study, hosted at Bennington College!

http://faculty.bennington.edu/~sherman/sex/samesex%202010.pdf



ahhh yumm hot swedish twins

[cougarjake13]

Where in the hell did I say that? if he/she CHOOSES not to come out, that's his/her decision. I do not believe people are born gay. I am sure with all the scientists in this world they can find the gene that makes you gay. It is something they learn about themselves somewhere down the line.
It's like racism. It's a choice. People are not born racist. It's something they decide to do.

i dont think its a born gay gene


more likely is that somehow during embryonic development the physical body starts growing one sex but the mental and brain are the opposite

[StanUpshaw]

yes u can


you may be brought up in one religion but as you enter into adulthood you can choose to continue to believe in whatever your parents did and made you go to as well or decide that another religion fits u better


or none at all

:wallbash: For fuck's sake.

You can't choose your beliefs any more than you can choose to (dis)like man ass.

[cougarjake13]

:wallbash: For fuck's sake.

You can't choose your beliefs any more than you can choose to (dis)like man ass.

yes i can

i dont like man ass


and i was raised catholic and now choose to be an atheist

[StanUpshaw]

You can choose to end the behavior of attending church.* You can choose to call yourself an atheist. But those are behaviors, and are merely effects of your beliefs. Your beliefs, like your sexuality, are coalesced from that same crazy mix of genetics, biology and environmental influence. It's absurd to claim you have any control over that.



*For the sake of argument, let's assume this is true. It's most likely not...the case for determinism is growing more solid every day.

[Snacks]

You can choose to end the behavior of attending church.* You can choose to call yourself an atheist. But those are behaviors, and are merely effects of your beliefs. Your beliefs, like your sexuality, are coalesced from that same crazy mix of genetics, biology and environmental influence. It's absurd to claim you have any control over that.



*For the sake of argument, let's assume this is true. It's most likely not...the case for determinism is growing more solid every day.

Religion is learned its not genetic. I was raised in a catholic household but I chose to no longer follow or believe in what I was taught. I choose to believe it was all lies. I may choose differently some day. I may choose to believe in Judaism or christianity or whatever else but I now choose not to believe any of it.

My parents made that choice for me just as they could have chosen for our family to not believe.

All choice, totally different.

[StanUpshaw]

That's amazing.

What else do you have conscious control over?

Can you choose to believe in republicanism? Can you choose to like polka music? Can you choose to prefer vanilla ice cream? You're pretty awesome.

[Snacks]

That's amazing.

What else do you have conscious control over?

Can you choose to believe in republicanism? Can you choose to like polka music? Can you choose to prefer vanilla ice cream? You're pretty awesome.

I cant tell if you're being serious or not because you seem so dumb and naive that I dont know if you are joking? If you think being religious or not isnt a choice you can understand my confusion!

[StanUpshaw]

I cant tell if you're being serious or not because you seem so dumb and naive that I dont know if you are joking? If you think being religious or not isnt a choice you can understand my confusion!

Choose to be less stupid.

[Snacks]

Choose to be less stupid.

Im not the idiot who thinks religion isnt a choice. Maybe you should choose to be smarter or less naive?!

[spoon]

I believe you're missing his point. However, he could be less caustic in approach and explain things better to say the least.

I choose to eat ice cream cake RIGHT NOW! Or do I?

[RoseBlood]

For what it's worth, you can't really choose your religiosity either.
You can choose to end the behavior of attending church.* You can choose to call yourself an atheist. But those are behaviors, and are merely effects of your beliefs. Your beliefs, like your sexuality, are coalesced from that same crazy mix of genetics, biology and environmental influence. It's absurd to claim you have any control over that.
*For the sake of argument, let's assume this is true. It's most likely not...the case for determinism is growing more solid every day.

In your first statement you said you can't choose your religion.

In your second you said you can choose your religion.

I understand the point you're trying to make about religion vs. belief system but you just contradicted yourself.

[StanUpshaw]

In your first statement you said you can't choose your religion.

In your second you said you can choose your religion.

I understand the point you're trying to make about religion vs. belief system but you just contradicted yourself.

I'm saying a person cannot choose his beliefs. Religion is a category of belief. Therefore, a person cannot choose his religion.

How have I been inconsistent?

[CountryBob]

When we were kids everyone in my family were fans of the Washington Redskins - my cousin T chose to love the Dallas Cowboys. In this case he chose to go against everything and his family to root for the enemy. He has loved them for 30+ years now.

Point is sometimes whatever you train your brain to like or love - that becomes part of you by choice.

I used to hate and despise Scotch - after many years of trying it I developed a taste and tolerance for the drink - by choice. I wanted to like it so bad that my mind started to think that it didnt taste like camel piss anymore.

Mr. Obvious - CBob

[sailor]

I'm saying a person cannot choose his beliefs. Religion is a category of belief. Therefore, a person cannot choose his religion.

How have I been inconsistent?

Yeah, what the lady is saying (borrowing the ice cream metaphor) is you can choose to HAVE ice cream or not, that is a choice. You cannot choose to LIKE ice cream, that is just something that would have developed over the course of your life. [to apply it to the matter at hand, I imagine SU would say you cannot choose to be gay, but you can choose to suck a dick or not.]

[RoseBlood]

Yeah, what the lady is saying (borrowing the ice cream metaphor) is you can choose to HAVE ice cream or not, that is a choice. You cannot choose to LIKE ice cream, that is just something that would have developed over the course of your life.

Thank you!

How have I been inconsistent?

In the first post you said you can’t choose your religion.

In the second one you began to describe acts which fall under the umbrella of religion saying you can choose to perform said acts.

Your statement describes religion which is reasonably independent of a moral belief system, which you said you can choose. People can engage in religious worship for years without giving much thought to the beliefs that support that religion.

If you read closely I'm actually agreeing with much of what you say.

[StanUpshaw]

Everyone have a twist cone! I'm buying!

[Jujubees2]

Everyone have a twist cone! I'm buying!

Yum!!!!!!

[RoseBlood]

Everyone have a twist cone! I'm buying!

I see what you did there. :laugh:

[spoon]

I love cones!

[cougarjake13]

You can choose to end the behavior of attending church.* You can choose to call yourself an atheist. But those are behaviors, and are merely effects of your beliefs. Your beliefs, like your sexuality, are coalesced from that same crazy mix of genetics, biology and environmental influence. It's absurd to claim you have any control over that.



*For the sake of argument, let's assume this is true. It's most likely not...the case for determinism is growing more solid every day.



but heres the difference i didnt come out of the womb a christian a muslim whatever i was raised by parents who believed in whatever and then brought me to the things they did


i wasnt a christian in the womb, its not in my dna




but for people who think that theyre born gay it is possible that it is in their dna ... quite possibly they could be born with the opposite genitalia but internally they are the other


that isnt learned, it isnt environmental



in the end we dont know what it is ... maybe its like i proposed above and what many transgenders believe ...... born in opposite body


or maybe its just how they grow up or for them maybe it all was just a choice


everyone is diff and we'll prob never know

[twiggy148]

You simply cant explain it with out invoking religion because that is the underlying problem people have with it. The bible says homosexuality is wrong therefore gay marriage can not be allowed. Of course unless you are not religious but just hate gays for whatever reason, then you could explain it that way.
Personally I could care less if they do or do not. Hell I've got several gay family members and they are not too awfully concerned with the issue. They are just looking to be with whomever they want and be left alone because a piece of paper doesnt validate their love for one another. And who wants to bring govt into a happy relationship?

[Justice4all]

It was a question, not a statement.



I believe sexual orientation is determined by about age 5, keeping that theory in mind, you're saying a young child chooses to be gay before they even know what it is?

Was being straight ever a choice for you?

Yes it was. We all have a decision to be straight, gay or bi.
And you said it yourself, it's a THEORY. Not fact (yet)
And to quote Futherman "They're working on that... and when they do, that statement of "It's a choice" will look even more wrong than it already is."

Well until there is PROOF 'It's a choice' is still not wrong. No proof, no argument on your end. Because right now you can't prove me wrong by proving you're right.

In this day and age I am sure we have the tech to map the human genome and find that gay gene. If they can't find it, every day passing pretty much confirms more and more that 'genetic' is more wrong tomorrow than it is today.

And if the day comes that I am wrong, I will openly admit I was wrong.
It doesn't matter either way, I have no problem with anyone being gay, wanting to marry or have equal rights in the state and church as heterosexual couples would.

[underdog]

I think what Justice is trying to say is that he really likes sucking dick, but he just chooses not to do it.

[Justice4all]

How do you know people aren't born rascist? And your brain and body aren't done developing when you are born BTW.

Babies Recognize Faces Better Than Adults, Study Says
(http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/03/0321_050321_babies.html)

Being able to recognize a white/black/asian face and choosing to hate them because they are different is not the same.

Racism is taught. Pure and simple.

[Justice4all]

I think what Justice is trying to say is that he really likes sucking dick, but he just chooses not to do it.

http://cdn.someecards.com/someecards/usercards/85f3aa0cdde806f840cae97ed11cac31.png

















couldn't help it.

[underdog]

http://cdn.someecards.com/someecards/usercards/85f3aa0cdde806f840cae97ed11cac31.png

















couldn't help it.

My mom didn't say you liked sucking dick?

[sailor]

And if the day comes that I am wrong, I will openly admit I was wrong.
It doesn't matter either way, I have no problem with anyone being gay, wanting to marry or have equal rights in the state and church as heterosexual couples would.

maybe you're just .20% wrong?

[disneyspy]

My mom didn't say you liked sucking dick?

you're mom has a dick?

i'm thinkin thats not your mom,that, my friend, might be your dad

[hanso]

<object style="height: 390px; width: 640px"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/D8oyA5JV7kA?version=3"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/D8oyA5JV7kA?version=3" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="390"></object>

When trying to figure out where presidential candidate Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-MN) gets her stringent, anti-gay views, you only have to look as far as her husband. Dr. Marcus Bachmann, who has described himself as his wife’s “strategist,” runs a Christian-based counseling center in Minnesota that has been rumored to offer reparative treatment for those looking to “ungay” themselves.

Michele Bachmann said she would support a federal constitutional amendment to define marriage as between a man and woman, thereby overturning New York's new law legalizing gay marriage.

[underdog]

you're mom has a dick?

i'm thinkin thats not your mom,that, my friend, might be your dad

I'm not your mother.

[spoon]

maybe you're just .20% wrong?

That's a high blood wrong content.

[Justice4all]

maybe you're just .20% wrong?

I would be 20% wrong??:wink: (well done sir)

[Justice4all]

That's a high blood wrong content.

That was awful. You can do better.

[spoon]

That was awful. You can do better.

MY CHOICE bitch!

[Crispy123]

Being able to recognize a white/black/asian face and choosing to hate them because they are different is not the same.

Racism is taught. Pure and simple.

From the link:

"One of the very regular things associated with visual recognition of any kind of object with infants is that they tend to prefer novelty. If you give them a choice between a novel and a familiar stimulus, they will typically always look more at the novel stimulus."

By looking at the novel monkeys longer, the visually trained babies demonstrated the ability to discriminate between the pictures of the monkeys they knew and pictures of monkeys they'd never seen before.

The study suggests that babies are born with a broad idea of what a face is. By the time they're nine months old, though, face processing is based on a much narrower model, one that is based on the faces they see most often.

This more specialized view in turn diminishes our early ability to make distinctions among other species, and possibly other races. For instance, if an infant is exposed to mainly Asian faces, he or she will grow to become less skilled at discerning among different, say, Caucasian faces.

If you read the entire article, not just the headline (:wink:) you will see it supports the idea that rascism is a product of the developing brain. And I think the idea of rascism vs discrimination is another argument entirely.

[spoon]

psst, you know Justice is blind and also can't read right?

[spoon]

think hellen keller mixed with Charlie from "It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia"

[Crispy123]

Thats hot!

[spoon]

As AJ and Nelly would say, "so take off all your clothes!"

[disneyspy]

As AJ and Nelly would say, "so take off all your clothes!"

HA!

[RoseBlood]

Racism is taught. Pure and simple.

To quote Oscar Wilde's The Importance of Being Earnest: The truth is rarely pure and never simple.

I believe racism stems from a mix of environmental and biological circumstances. On a conscious level it is taught, but on a sub-conscious level it is learned.

Ever heard of Williams Syndrome? It's a rare genetic disorder that makes people lack normal social anxiety. It is caused by a gene deletion known to affect the brain as well as other organs; as a result people with Williams syndrome never experience social threats.

The whole concept of social anxiety and fear are foreign to them. Normally, children show clear preferences for their own ethnic group by the age of three, if not sooner; children with Williams syndrome show no clear preference.

Racial biases are likely rooted in a general fear of others. If some people are genetically predisposed to experience race-neutrality, then perhaps some people are wired or to be more sensitive to feelings of fear. In other words their in-born defense mechanism is triggered quicker.

Not saying that this is all biologically-based and you can't do anything about it, just because there is a genetic link, does not mean the system itself is 100 percent genetic. Much like the gay/straight debate, there is no one determining factor, it's not so pure and simple.

[hanso]

<object style="height: 390px; width: 640px"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/D8oyA5JV7kA?version=3"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/D8oyA5JV7kA?version=3" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="390"></object>

When trying to figure out where presidential candidate Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-MN) gets her stringent, anti-gay views, you only have to look as far as her husband. Dr. Marcus Bachmann, who has described himself as his wife’s “strategist,” runs a Christian-based counseling center in Minnesota that has been rumored to offer reparative treatment for those looking to “ungay” themselves.

Michele Bachmann said she would support a federal constitutional amendment to define marriage as between a man and woman, thereby overturning New York's new law legalizing gay marriage.

He is a man's man. It must be the recording that makes the lisp sound. Just look at the guy.

[high fly]

His interior decorating skills are a dead giveaway............

[hanso]

The man can pray away the gay. However Fez may need an exorcism.

[Furtherman]

<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/ZyAueltLsa4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Leave it to a Stewart Smalley to point out BS lies in the Senate. If only he would point out the BS waste of time that this is even an issue. GREAT video.

[disneyspy]

<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/ZyAueltLsa4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Leave it to a Stewart Smalley to point out BS lies in the Senate. If only he would point out the BS waste of time that this is even an issue. GREAT video.

damn i guess that guy wasnt good enough or smart enough to understand what he was saying and nobody likes him

[Furtherman]

damn i guess that guy wasnt good enough or smart enough to understand what he was saying and nobody likes him

:laugh:

[spoon]

Wow that was awesome. Who would think these idiots would just misquote a study or article? Was that what wf looks like?

[CountryBob]

Why cant gays realize that hetro people get skieved out when 2 dudes make out? It would kill me if my son wanted to marry a man.

But, if it isnt my family, I dont care if others do. How cynical is that?

[RoseBlood]

The Scariest Gay Marriage Chart Ever. (http://cdn.front.moveon.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Gay-Marriage-Legalized-Chart.gif)