Just to simplify things : Israel Vs. Hamas: Who Ya got?

[TheMojoPin]

Yeah, but you were...thinking it...for the most part...! :laugh:

Trickster!

[SonOfSmeagol]

Trickster!

:lol:

[IWOWedGregBrady]

My main points have been that Israel has the most power right now to make attempts at actual lasting change between the two populations.

But the main thing the Palestinians want is to wipe out the Jews.
How do you reconcile with that demand?

[extracheese]

I think honestreporting does a good job debunking claims. They post references or show video as proof.
I dont think the Palestinians have been backed into this culture (terrorism, and preaching hatred) by Israel - but by their own leaders and their so called friends (Arab neigbors)
I also don't agree Israel should be responsible for these people all alone, but they have been abandoned by Arab neighbors and left for Israel to deal with.
The people of the West Bank voted for Abbass - a moderate - and no rockets came into Israel from there...and Israel has open borders and peace with them. Gaza chose Hamas the rockets have been flying for years, and you've seen the results. The West Bank shows Israels good faith with neighbors not actively seeking out its destruction (in their hearts is another story).
Hamas will resume rocket fire if they haven't already. Do they want peace? (A state of their own)?

[TheMojoPin]

But the main thing the Palestinians want is to wipe out the Jews.
How do you reconcile with that demand?

You honestly think every Palestinian, over anything else in their lives, wants to see the Jewish people wiped out?

[TheMojoPin]

I think honestreporting does a good job debunking claims. They post references or show video as proof.

HR basically does commentary on very select select reports. They're not a very well-regarded media watchdog group.

I dont think the Palestinians have been backed into this culture (terrorism, and preaching hatred) by Israel - but by their own leaders and their so called friends (Arab neigbors)

This doesn't make any sense. How have other Arab countries controlled the fate of the Palestinians?

You honestly think Israel is not to blame at all for the current state of the Palestinian people? Nowhere have I said it's ALL Israel's fault, but to ignore Israel's culpability in what has happened simply isn't realistic. Both sides are at fault.

I also don't agree Israel should be responsible for these people all alone, but they have been abandoned by Arab neighbors and left for Israel to deal with.

Abandoned? Again, the Palestinians aren't the responsibility of the other Arab states. The Palestinians are part of the ntie population of the land Israel has claimed. That's not being "abandoned" by the Arab countries...they're part and parcel of Israel itself. They are part of Israel. The Israeli government needs to deal with them as such.

The people of the West Bank voted for Abbass - a moderate - and no rockets came into Israel from there...and Israel has open borders and peace with them. Gaza chose Hamas the rockets have been flying for years, and you've seen the results. The West Bank shows Israels good faith with neighbors not actively seeking out its destruction (in their hearts is another story).

The situations are vastly different between the West Bank and Gaza. The West Bank is also subservient to Israel as Gaza is, just to a lesser degree. They're still crippled economically and socially by Israeli restrictions.

Hamas will resume rocket fire if they haven't already. Do they want peace? (A state of their own)?

Israel's current policies towards the Palestinians will just create more organizations like Hamas. When ceasefires have been maintained, nothing has changed.

[west milly Tom]

Mojo, good to see you're still at it. You really think other Arab nations have nothing to do with the fate/policy making in Gaza? Come on guy.

[TheMojoPin]

Moko' good to see you're still at it. You really think other Arab nations have nothing to do with the fate/policy making in Gaza? Come on guy.

I never said they weren't involved, but this is ultimately an internal situation. Israel has the most control when it comes to making actual lasting change. The Palestinians will ultimately work with Israel if such efforts are made because they have to: their lives socially and economically hinge on Israeli policies over everything else. To think that the other Arab states can or should control the Palestinians is lazy finger-pointing. There is much more that appeals to the Palestinians that could be changed by Israel than anything the Arab countries could do.

[IWOWedGregBrady]

You honestly think every Palestinian, over anything else in their lives, wants to see the Jewish people wiped out?

I think that is something a portion of them strive for, at least as far as Jews in the Middle East region.

Would this be the first time the Jews had to contend with that very threat?

[TheMojoPin]

I think that is something a portion of them strive for, at least as far as Jews in the Middle East region.

Would this be the first time the Jews had to contend with that very threat?

That's completely different than how you originally posed the idea. You made it sound like most or all Palestinians are focused on the destruction of the jews over anything else.

I'm not arguing the Palestinias are sitting around filled with unbridled love for the Israelis, but most of the anger and frustration directed towards them by the Palestinians is rooted out of Israel's official policies and actions towards them over the last 60 years. It's a lazy response to dismiss it all as a boogeyman-type of anti-Semitism mindset that can never be changed.

Trust me, if working with the Israelis is somthing that means that most Palestinians will have a fair shake at simply living their lives and being able to succeed, it'll kill the extremist rhetoric. That's the key. As it stands right now, even if all the fighting between the two stopped, the current makeup still relegates most Palestinians to lives of poverty ad second class or worse standards of living and medical care and so on. This isn't saying that the Israelis need to just throw money at the Palestinians, but their current policies are specifically deisgned to marginalize the Palestinians and their economy. Even if you fall back on the idea of "well, they can just trade with the other Arab nations," no, they can't. Israel controls the large imports and exports out of the territory. These are the types of things that need to change and will have the most lasting impact.

[high fly]

But the main thing the Palestinians want is to wipe out the Jews.
How do you reconcile with that demand?


You're talking about Hamas, which s not as popular with the Palestinians as some imagine.
The last poll I saw said about 45% of them supported Hamas, which is way up from where they have been most of the time.
Through the 90s, Hamas had an approval rating less than 30%, sometimes much less than that, in times of relative peace.

Hamas is a fundamentalist religious outfit, whereas the Palestinians are largely secular.
Hamas got in power for two reasons: 1) because Bush pushed Arafat and the Palestinian Authority to hold elections before the P.A. was ready.
2) Because the corruption and ineptitude of the P.A. to deliver basic services stood in sharp contrast to Hamas, whose leaders live frugally, is not corrupt, which delivered many basic services such as schools and clinics, and also showed they could and would hurt Israel when Israel hurt them.

Hamas thrives during times of tension, therefore it is not in the Israelis or the Palestinians best interest for there to be war.

Hamas' allies are fear, oppression, hopelessness, war, and lack of opportunity.
Hamas' enemies are peace, hope, confidence, opportunity and a secular government which delivers.

For a thousand years or so, the Arabs and Jews got along quite well in the Middle East.
Over that same period, the greatest enemies of the Jews have been Christians.

Just like everyone else, the Palestinians want to have a quiet and peaceful life with the freedoms they see others around them have, but which they have been deprived of lo all these years.

[high fly]

I think the following is worth paying attention to:

“As an organization, Hamas is much talked about, but poorly understood. Given its stunning victory in the Palestinian Legislative Council elections in early 2006, Hamas is no longer a fringe player in the Palestinian political scene. While the champion of suicide bombing against Israelis, Hamas has developed an appeal among Palestinians for several reasons: It is not corrupt in the sea of corruption that has so characterized the Palestinian Authority. It provides services – clinics, after-school programs, food distribution centers – that the Palestinian Authority fails to offer. It has demonstrated tht it can hurt Israelis when, in the eyes of Palestinians, the Israelis have been hurting them.
Notwithstanding the reasons for Hamas having a following among Palestinians, its popularity throughout the 1990s never exceeded 30 percent of the Palestinian population. And even that figure greatly exaggerated its standing for most of the period when Palestinians were more hopeful about the future. Supprt for Hamas has grown out of frustration and anger and the ability of the organization to fill a vacuum of leadership.
If there is a secular alternative that is credible, most Palestinians would support it, particularly because Palestinian society remains far more secular than religiously devout. If there was hope and belief again in the hope of peace, Hamas would again be reduced in terms of its political potential. In reality, most Palestinians would like to have a normal life, and, as long as Hamas is defined by its commitment to confrontation with Israel, Hamas will not be able to deliver what most Palestinians seek. For that, Hamas will have to change its credo and objectives.”
- Ambassador Dennis Ross, U.S. envoy to the Middle East, 1988-2000, in the forward to
HAMAS Politics, Charity, and Terrorism in the Service of Jihad, by Matthew Levitt (Yale University Press, 2006)

[A.J.]

I think the following is worth paying attention to:

“As an organization, Hamas is much talked about, but poorly understood. Given its stunning victory in the Palestinian Legislative Council elections in early 2006, Hamas is no longer a fringe player in the Palestinian political scene. While the champion of suicide bombing against Israelis, Hamas has developed an appeal among Palestinians for several reasons: It is not corrupt in the sea of corruption that has so characterized the Palestinian Authority. It provides services – clinics, after-school programs, food distribution centers – that the Palestinian Authority fails to offer. It has demonstrated tht it can hurt Israelis when, in the eyes of Palestinians, the Israelis have been hurting them.
Notwithstanding the reasons for Hamas having a following among Palestinians, its popularity throughout the 1990s never exceeded 30 percent of the Palestinian population. And even that figure greatly exaggerated its standing for most of the period when Palestinians were more hopeful about the future. Supprt for Hamas has grown out of frustration and anger and the ability of the organization to fill a vacuum of leadership.
If there is a secular alternative that is credible, most Palestinians would support it, particularly because Palestinian society remains far more secular than religiously devout. If there was hope and belief again in the hope of peace, Hamas would again be reduced in terms of its political potential. In reality, most Palestinians would like to have a normal life, and, as long as Hamas is defined by its commitment to confrontation with Israel, Hamas will not be able to deliver what most Palestinians seek. For that, Hamas will have to change its credo and objectives.”
- Ambassador Dennis Ross, U.S. envoy to the Middle East, 1988-2000, in the forward to
HAMAS Politics, Charity, and Terrorism in the Service of Jihad, by Matthew Levitt (Yale University Press, 2006)

Yep.

[K.C.]

Hamas may be fucked.

People think that Israel will catch all the flack for this, and they will to a degree, initially, but I've listened to enough reactions out of Gaza on the BBC World Service over the last few weeks (I listen to it pretty much everyday at work), to know, that while the Palestinians are still pissed at Israel, they're increasingly implicating Hamas as the problem there.

Obama needs to make a real concerted effort to reach out to a moderate Palestinian sect, and bring them to the table with Israel, and then get Israel to make some token concessions on the ground that the Palestinians denounce Hamas.

If that gets done, Hamas is finished.

[high fly]

I agree.
Damned shame the PA was corrupt.

Hamas devotes something like 80% of it's budget to social programs like clinics and schools, but that's not 80% of much, something like $60 or 70 million, so they can be supplanted.

[TheMojoPin]

Hamas may be fucked.

People think that Israel will catch all the flack for this, and they will to a degree, initially, but I've listened to enough reactions out of Gaza on the BBC World Service over the last few weeks (I listen to it pretty much everyday at work), to know, that while the Palestinians are still pissed at Israel, they're increasingly implicating Hamas as the problem there.

Obama needs to make a real concerted effort to reach out to a moderate Palestinian sect, and bring them to the table with Israel, and then get Israel to make some token concessions on the ground that the Palestinians denounce Hamas.

If that gets done, Hamas is finished.

Good.

[K.C.]

I agree.
Damned shame the PA was corrupt.

Well, the famous story out of Clinton's memoirs was that he had the agreement between Ehud Barak and Yassir Arafat in 2000, and Arafat told him privately that it was the only possible compromise, but if he accepted the deal, he'd be killed.

[high fly]

I keep being reminded of the famous quip that "The Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity"

[Furtherman]

Doctors Spooked by Israel's Mystery Weapon (http://blog.wired.com/defense/2009/01/mystery-weapon.html)

We first reported on Dense Inert Metal Explosive (DIME) munitions in 2006. The weapons originated as an offshoot of a bunker-busting program, when it was found that adding tungsten powder to explosives seemed to increase the blast effect over a small area. The powder was acting as micro-shrapnel which only carries for a few feet (compared to hundreds of feet for larger fragments), so the result was dubbed the "focused lethality munition" (FLM) which does massive damage in a small area and nothing outside.

[mendyweiss]

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[TheMojoPin]

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[Serpico1103]

Hamas and the over